Comment by uninvolved Kaypoh
This case should be named John Gohde 2. -- Kaypoh ( talk) 02:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved Kendrick7
Just looking at the provided diffs, I don't see anything worth making a case over here. -- Kendrick7 talk 03:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
This increasingly looks like an attempt to gain an upper hand in a content dispute by dragging an editor with an ancient ArbCom case into a new ArbCom hearing. There's been no attempt to go thru normal WP:DR channels. MastCell's complaint below indeed suggests the sort of "lameness" we'll have to put up with should ArbCom accept the case. Accusations of "extreme disruption" (no diffs) and WP:TE (no diffs), followed by accusations of WP:GAME for giving advice to an editor whose own subpage ended up on WP:MfD because he never got around to working on it (I've got a few of those myself, but so much for WP:TIND), followed by accusations of WP:CANVASS for contacting exactly TWO editors about the MfD (see WP:CANVASS#Types of canvassing where this is clearly permitted), and plenty of diffs for "lameness" which I for one had no idea was a capital offense.
All I see here is an editor who needs to be reminded to be more civil in his edit summaries, and an attempt to construe even the mildest of sarcasm (i.e. "And just in case you cannot count...") as a violation WP:NPA. Yep, lameness alright. -- Kendrick7 talk 20:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Statement by peripherally involved MastCell
User:John Gohde is sort of the canonical, Platonic-ideal violator of WP:SOAP and WP:BATTLE. While his editing has been intermittent, it is marked not only by extreme disruptiveness and tendentiousness, but most recently by encouraging other editors to game the system by recreating deleted material ( [1]), canvassing ( [2]), and just plain lameness ( [3], [4], [5]). Really, the community ought to be able to handle an obvious case like this with a simple indef-block/community ban, but given the background perhaps ArbCom is the best venue. Whether or not another 1-year ban is considered, there ought to be clear ArbCom-sanctioned zero-tolerance for this particular editor's shenanigans with swift escalation to an indefinite block, given how well-documented, refractory, and long-standing his poor behavior is. MastCell Talk 07:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- Addendum: While it is encouraging that User:John Gohde is now willing to participate in this "mob, Iranian justice system", I find it odd to complain that WP:DR has been bypassed. This user has been the subject of 2 prior Arbitration cases, and the problematic behavior at the core of those cases remains demonstrably unchanged. I don't see what an RfC would conceivably accomplish given the level of refractoriness we're talking about here. MastCell Talk 19:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The parties to this case did not use any of the dispute resolution procedures, as was suggested by the admins, who were fully aware of the prior arbitration cases, who reviewed the RfC and AE actions.
The facts are that, I had stopped doing any of the above a good two weeks prior to both the posting of comments on my talk pages and the RfC. -- John Gohde ( talk) 22:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Statement by peripherally involved Jim Butler
This editor's second post to me was an attack: the edit summary said ""stop wasting my time on your nonsense". Shortly after that he went to 5RR (one of which he improperly called "rv vandalism") at Medical acupuncture, where he kept insisting on inserting a particular claim ( NCCAM's categorization of acupuncture) that was not only unsourced, but ultimately shown to be wrong. His disruptive editing speaks for itself. -- Jim Butler( talk) 14:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- Addendum: John Gohde's response to the above at RfArb is itself a fine piece of evidence (which I'll add at the proper page later): sidestepping and misrepresentation. That has characterized a large proportion of the couple-dozen interactions I've had with John on WP. I don't know what sort of mentality underlies this pattern, but I don't think it's going to stop. -- Jim Butler( talk) 12:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I would called Jim Butler's allegations pure sour grapes over me disagreeing with his position. Jim Butler, an acupuncturist by profession, was attempting to convert the scientific medical acupuncture article into the classical acupunture article.
In my opinion, it is an oxymoron to state in writing that scientific medical acupuncture works because of invisible energy fields which don't exist in reality. Science believes only in what physically exists. Medical acupuncture works, if it works at all, because of an obvious manipulation of the human body by the insertion of needles.
As distasteful as it is, Jim Butler was goaded into this arbitration case by Fyslee. [6] Jim is merely using this action as an opportunity to get even with me for catching him trying to interject this nonsense into this scientific/medical article. -- John Gohde ( talk) 22:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- The diffs tell a different story, as I'll also show on the evidence page. Contrary to John's assertion that Fyslee "goaded" me into this, 16 December, I had been trying to deal with John's less-than-clueful edits at Medical acupuncture and its talk page since at least 14 December. John seems to have his own ideas about what "scientific medical acupuncture" ought to be; he believes it must by definition exclude any mention of prescientific, traditional Chinese concepts. Reliable sources disagree, as I noted at talk: Joseph Helms, the founding president of the American Academy of Medical Acupuncture, says that the field does in fact embrace the classical Chinese concept of qi, or vital force. [7] Rather than acknowledge, in the time-tested NPOV and VER way, that a variety of views exist, John's response was to dismiss the source and proceeded to edit war to 5RR, as mentioned above.
- John's pattern is classic trolling: engage in provocative behavior, than accuse the other party of the same thing. Example: attack ("stop wasting my time on your nonsense"), and then when called on his misconduct, cry foul: "stop making personal attacks". Another example: Push a certain POV (e.g., that "medical acupuncture" means one particular thing), and when confronted with contrary evidence, accuse the other party of POV-pushing, as he does just above. This is a long-standing pattern, both on- and off-wiki (as a quick Google for the user's name will show). Hope springs eternal, but I don't know how likely it is that John can/will reform. -- Jim Butler( talk) 02:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is pure pure sour grapes, pure personal attack, and pure goading on his part. But, this tactic is not going to work this time. John Gohde ( talk) 23:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Statement by peripherally involved Ronz
I've found John Gohde to be extremely contentious on Complementary and alternative medicine and Talk:Complementary and alternative medicine, where his behavior has definite ownership issues, and where he demonstrates a lack of understanding of WP:CON and WP:TALK (especially WP:AGF). In my dispute resolution attempts with him, he simply ignored my concerns and instead choose to assume bad faith on my part and make accusations about my behavior. Instead of following any regular dispute resolution methods, he started creating a page listing problems that he had with others, including myself. -- Ronz ( talk) 23:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- More sour grapes. -- John Gohde ( talk) 15:02, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved Kaypoh
This case should be named John Gohde 2. -- Kaypoh ( talk) 02:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved Kendrick7
Just looking at the provided diffs, I don't see anything worth making a case over here. -- Kendrick7 talk 03:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
This increasingly looks like an attempt to gain an upper hand in a content dispute by dragging an editor with an ancient ArbCom case into a new ArbCom hearing. There's been no attempt to go thru normal WP:DR channels. MastCell's complaint below indeed suggests the sort of "lameness" we'll have to put up with should ArbCom accept the case. Accusations of "extreme disruption" (no diffs) and WP:TE (no diffs), followed by accusations of WP:GAME for giving advice to an editor whose own subpage ended up on WP:MfD because he never got around to working on it (I've got a few of those myself, but so much for WP:TIND), followed by accusations of WP:CANVASS for contacting exactly TWO editors about the MfD (see WP:CANVASS#Types of canvassing where this is clearly permitted), and plenty of diffs for "lameness" which I for one had no idea was a capital offense.
All I see here is an editor who needs to be reminded to be more civil in his edit summaries, and an attempt to construe even the mildest of sarcasm (i.e. "And just in case you cannot count...") as a violation WP:NPA. Yep, lameness alright. -- Kendrick7 talk 20:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Statement by peripherally involved MastCell
User:John Gohde is sort of the canonical, Platonic-ideal violator of WP:SOAP and WP:BATTLE. While his editing has been intermittent, it is marked not only by extreme disruptiveness and tendentiousness, but most recently by encouraging other editors to game the system by recreating deleted material ( [1]), canvassing ( [2]), and just plain lameness ( [3], [4], [5]). Really, the community ought to be able to handle an obvious case like this with a simple indef-block/community ban, but given the background perhaps ArbCom is the best venue. Whether or not another 1-year ban is considered, there ought to be clear ArbCom-sanctioned zero-tolerance for this particular editor's shenanigans with swift escalation to an indefinite block, given how well-documented, refractory, and long-standing his poor behavior is. MastCell Talk 07:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- Addendum: While it is encouraging that User:John Gohde is now willing to participate in this "mob, Iranian justice system", I find it odd to complain that WP:DR has been bypassed. This user has been the subject of 2 prior Arbitration cases, and the problematic behavior at the core of those cases remains demonstrably unchanged. I don't see what an RfC would conceivably accomplish given the level of refractoriness we're talking about here. MastCell Talk 19:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The parties to this case did not use any of the dispute resolution procedures, as was suggested by the admins, who were fully aware of the prior arbitration cases, who reviewed the RfC and AE actions.
The facts are that, I had stopped doing any of the above a good two weeks prior to both the posting of comments on my talk pages and the RfC. -- John Gohde ( talk) 22:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Statement by peripherally involved Jim Butler
This editor's second post to me was an attack: the edit summary said ""stop wasting my time on your nonsense". Shortly after that he went to 5RR (one of which he improperly called "rv vandalism") at Medical acupuncture, where he kept insisting on inserting a particular claim ( NCCAM's categorization of acupuncture) that was not only unsourced, but ultimately shown to be wrong. His disruptive editing speaks for itself. -- Jim Butler( talk) 14:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
- Addendum: John Gohde's response to the above at RfArb is itself a fine piece of evidence (which I'll add at the proper page later): sidestepping and misrepresentation. That has characterized a large proportion of the couple-dozen interactions I've had with John on WP. I don't know what sort of mentality underlies this pattern, but I don't think it's going to stop. -- Jim Butler( talk) 12:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I would called Jim Butler's allegations pure sour grapes over me disagreeing with his position. Jim Butler, an acupuncturist by profession, was attempting to convert the scientific medical acupuncture article into the classical acupunture article.
In my opinion, it is an oxymoron to state in writing that scientific medical acupuncture works because of invisible energy fields which don't exist in reality. Science believes only in what physically exists. Medical acupuncture works, if it works at all, because of an obvious manipulation of the human body by the insertion of needles.
As distasteful as it is, Jim Butler was goaded into this arbitration case by Fyslee. [6] Jim is merely using this action as an opportunity to get even with me for catching him trying to interject this nonsense into this scientific/medical article. -- John Gohde ( talk) 22:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
- The diffs tell a different story, as I'll also show on the evidence page. Contrary to John's assertion that Fyslee "goaded" me into this, 16 December, I had been trying to deal with John's less-than-clueful edits at Medical acupuncture and its talk page since at least 14 December. John seems to have his own ideas about what "scientific medical acupuncture" ought to be; he believes it must by definition exclude any mention of prescientific, traditional Chinese concepts. Reliable sources disagree, as I noted at talk: Joseph Helms, the founding president of the American Academy of Medical Acupuncture, says that the field does in fact embrace the classical Chinese concept of qi, or vital force. [7] Rather than acknowledge, in the time-tested NPOV and VER way, that a variety of views exist, John's response was to dismiss the source and proceeded to edit war to 5RR, as mentioned above.
- John's pattern is classic trolling: engage in provocative behavior, than accuse the other party of the same thing. Example: attack ("stop wasting my time on your nonsense"), and then when called on his misconduct, cry foul: "stop making personal attacks". Another example: Push a certain POV (e.g., that "medical acupuncture" means one particular thing), and when confronted with contrary evidence, accuse the other party of POV-pushing, as he does just above. This is a long-standing pattern, both on- and off-wiki (as a quick Google for the user's name will show). Hope springs eternal, but I don't know how likely it is that John can/will reform. -- Jim Butler( talk) 02:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is pure pure sour grapes, pure personal attack, and pure goading on his part. But, this tactic is not going to work this time. John Gohde ( talk) 23:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Statement by peripherally involved Ronz
I've found John Gohde to be extremely contentious on Complementary and alternative medicine and Talk:Complementary and alternative medicine, where his behavior has definite ownership issues, and where he demonstrates a lack of understanding of WP:CON and WP:TALK (especially WP:AGF). In my dispute resolution attempts with him, he simply ignored my concerns and instead choose to assume bad faith on my part and make accusations about my behavior. Instead of following any regular dispute resolution methods, he started creating a page listing problems that he had with others, including myself. -- Ronz ( talk) 23:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- More sour grapes. -- John Gohde ( talk) 15:02, 8 January 2008 (UTC)