Shorne is a dedicated POV warrior who is pushing a minority Marxist-Leninist viewpoint in violation of both Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, the propaganda and advocacy section. He engages in some discussion, but does very little research to back up his assertions or reversions, mostly demanding exhausting research by anyone he disagrees with; which when produced he ignores or discounts. See for example [1] and [2]. Fred Bauder 15:35, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
Agreed, even if we don't want to always accept the 3RR as law (and I'm not sure we shouldn't), use of 3RR paroles where necessary (and these are such cases) is a good thing. -- fvw 11:38, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
I would like to add that some of the histories of revert wars for the stated pages go back much further, and involve more users. I am not aware of the circumstances on all the pages, but I am confident that, whereever VV or TDC are involved, Gz's reasons for reverting are as he stated: because when the 3RR is not enforced, those who respect it in principle become powerless against those who disregard it in principle. Instead of becoming powerless, Gz has attempted to bring the matter to arbitration. Arbitration being rejected, he decided that he had two choices: accept VV's tyrannical behavior, or play tit-for-tat, in attempt that VV would eventually realize the futility of his ways: that if other people operated the same way as him on the wiki, nothing would ever get accomplished. I think that this is a reasonable and respectful approach to a serious and persistent problem, where petitions have been ignored. Gz respects the 3RR, to the extent that he put his reputation at risk in order to defend it when others had derelicted.
As to Shorne, he is a new user, and I have found him to be very reasonable and npov. On encountering VV's conduct, he took an assertive position almost immediately. I do not fault him for this. As with Gz, I cannot speak where I have not bore witness. Kevin Baas | talk 20:01, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
Oh, and I'm happy to submit to any disciplinary action provided that it is applied consistently and proportionally. Kevin Baas | talk 20:08, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
It seems to me that it might be wise to add the parties from the other cases as well. If Ruy Lopez is indeed a reincarnation of the users that VV and others suspect him to be, then he has a long history of edit wars. Furthermore, considering that a temporary order seemed to be in the works with Turrican before arbitrators simply stopped voting, wouldn't that now justify an actual case? Ambi 23:13, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would like to request also that anyone be temporarily banned who makes the same change twice in a row without discussing it on the talk page. Shorne 00:11, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I cannot recommend the arbitration case against User:Gzornenplatz enough, though I do not know much about the other users. Let me admit right away that I edit war at heated moments, but I do my best to follow, or at least remind myself of protocol - respect the 3RR, request protection, use Talk pages, try civility, request the same from other users. Despite these routines, there are some users, such as Gplatz, who rarely or never return the favour and do not seem to have any justifiable reason for appearing on Wikipedia other than to disrupt articles (since they never contribute any material of their own, but simply revert the constant and time consuming efforts of others - see, for example, the work that has gone into creating an NPOV image by three different users (Poccil, Nichalp, myself) at Image:IndiaNumbered.png which the above user has done nothing but revert). Their obnoxious behaviour is complemented by their refusal to engage in discussion, taking refuge in the obtuse dogmatism of edit warring, as they have nothing substantial to argue (once again, Gplatz is representative, since he reverts even pages/images that he previously did not have a problem with.) They shun Talk pages till the last moment. And when they use them, they prefer to insist rather than debate. I would personally like to see this user blocked or even banned, unless someone can point out to me anything this user has done that can be certified constructive or helpful. -- Simonides 22:47, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Just wanted to add that User:Gzornenplatz was blocked recently in the German WP for one week because of edit-wars. -- Mkogler 19:16, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Since none of the named parties except Kevin Baas have stopped or even moderated their revert wars, may I suggest that they be placed under a temporary restriction from editing articles and templates until this case is resolved? —No-One Jones (m) 17:41, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sweeping injunctions = bad idea. Discretion of any admin = very bad idea. Next thing you know I'll get a one week ban for correcting a typo on Franco-Prussian War or Wienerschnitzel. Very Verily 23:47, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Martin, do you have any idea how much vandalism I repair, and how many important articles I protect from wrecking? (Also, I note you're not including Ruy Lopez in your proposal, whose case has been merged with this one.) Very Verily 01:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Also, I should note that due to the pace of arbitration, "temporary" is anything but. This should be considered in any proposal to "sort out the mess later". Very Verily 01:59, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
May I note regarding the mention of German/Polish articles in the proposed injunction:
Has this been merged with the Ruy Lopez case or not? If so, why is he not being included in the proposals? Very Verily 04:39, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I hereby demand the resignations of James F., Martin, the Epopt, Delirium, Raul654, and mav for voting to ban me temporarily from editing articles on German or Polish subjects. These people voted in favour of the ban without even checking to see whether I was guilty of any wrongdoing on those pages. In fact, I have not even touched any article related to Germany or Poland recently, and I certainly haven't ever been involved in any edit wars on German or Polish themes. Obviously these six arbitrators did not do the minimum of investigation before rushing to take the part of fellow arbitrator Fred Bauder. Their dereliction constitutes a gross abuse of power and establishes their inability to discharge their duties with the competence and impartiality required.
I therefore demand their resignations or, failing that, their expulsion. In addition, I demand the annulment of their unjust votes to ban me.
I shall carry this complaint above the arbitration committee if the resignations are not forthcoming. Any other arbitrator who votes in favour of the proposed ban will also be asked to resign. Shorne 21:07, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing that to our attention. Since temporary injunctions are supposed to be made quickly they are made while only giving a cursorary look at the evidence. I for one saw many, many reverts by Shorne and I trusted that the ArbCom member who proposed the order knew what he was talking about so I voted for the order (I've now changed my vote and amended the order). But since your reverts seem to be in the subject areas of the Cold War and communism, I've added a proposed order that would be exactly the same as the other, but cover those subjects instead. Again, thank you for mentioning this - it would be have been pointless to ban you from editing an area you don't edit in now. -- mav 12:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Temporary injunctions are there to prevent further disruption while we consider a case, and I'm entirely comfortable to take a shotgun approach to that, even if it causes some temporary inconvenience. I'm also entirely comfortably with mav's correction of the temporary order. If I were corrupt, I would be making money off bribes, but regretfully I'm not making any money. Shame. Martin 17:58, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well nothing we say here appears to be being read anyway, but I'll scream in the wind that since the relief sought by Michael Snow is revert parole, but there is a proposed policy that would in effect put all of Wikipedia on revert parole, this entire arbitration may soon be made obsolete, and in fact based on the current vote tally almost certainly will be. I also note 172's case is being watered down to nothing for this very reason, so perhaps this one should be dispensed with too. Very Verily 06:02, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Six out of six arbitrators who voted for "temporary" injunction (1) did so without even examining the evidence. When I complained of a gross miscarriage of justice and demanded the resignations or expulsion of the corrupt arbitrators in question, corrupt arbitrator mav posted vindictively on my talk page his intention to have me banned from editing articles on a vast range of subjects in response to my complaint. He also unilaterally altered injunction (1) after the voting was complete. See the talk page to this article for the evidence.
It is perfectly clear that this kangaroo court has no legitimacy. I call for its immediate dissolution and replacement. Shorne 12:54, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I suppose I could mention yet again that this case was merged with that of Ruy Lopez, and he's not included in these wild injunctions. Deaf ears again, or third time's the charm? Very Verily 11:56, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
By what right do you unilaterally amend an injunction already voted on? I reject your vindictive proposal, call for its dismissal, and reiterate my demand for the resignations or expulsion of the six corrupt arbitrators who voted to ban me without even examining the evidence for two seconds. Shorne 12:49, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see VeryVerily's behaviour on Henry Kissinger. Judging from his past behaviour in editing that article, I'd say that his third change to the article—deleting an entire sentence rather than imposing his version of it again—is simply a way to skirt the "temporary" injunction against reverting an article more than twice in one day. Please give me a ruling on this question before I edit the article. Shorne 13:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was involved in mediating a dispute between these parties. I am now declaring that process failed. In addition, I am personally forwarding the issue of 3RR violation by some or all parties to the ArbCom. You may wish to also consider the other issues raised in the Mediation (see the relevant page). -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:43, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
Please ban VeryVerily. In violation of the injunction issued by the arbitrators, he has reverted List of U.S. foreign interventions since 1945 three times in the past twenty-four hours. (The last time was also a violation of policy, for he added "twoversions" after restoring his own version.) Shorne 20:23, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Now the arbitrary arbitration committee has approved yet another "temporary" ban, one vindictively drafted by mav in response to my complaint. God forfend that the "arbitrators" be accountable for their heavy-handed, corrupt acts.
Shorne 02:10, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I blocked Shorne and VeryVerily for edit warring over Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2004/Candidate statements, where both reverted at least three times. VeryVerily thinks the injunction does not apply to project pages; can we have a clarification on whether it does or not? Thanks. —No-One Jones (m) 00:31, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Against VeryVerily's claims that the block was motivated by personal animosity, I'll note that I blocked both him and Shorne at the time when I thought the injunction extended to project pages, and that I unblocked both of them when Mav clarified the injunction. If either thinks I misused my powers, they are welcome to assess community opinion via RFC. —No-One Jones (m) 06:35, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For the ninth or tenth time, I demand to know why my own request for arbitration has not yet received any votes when this one and others that were filed later have been voted on. No one on the committee has yet spoken to this question. I charge the committee with bias and abuse of power. Shorne 18:36, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The case that I brought against VeryVerily, which Ruy Lopez subsequently joined (with my approval), was "merged" with this one. I had agreed to let it be merged with the case brought by Christiankavanagh, but evidently the "arbitration" committee (which hasn't tried to arbitrate anything; there has been no discussion at all from them, not even in response to repeated procedural questions) failed to notice this offer or simply disregarded it so that it could effectively lose my complaint in this larger and more complex one, thereby nullifying it.
Michael Snow's complaint requested only the following actions:
Snow specifically denied that he was requesting bans on specific types of articles, to say nothing of bans from the entire site. Yet that is the sort of action that this committee is taking. Again, I have repeatedly endorsed the position taken by Snow and asked again and again that those conditions be imposed on all of us, myself included. Shorne 01:11, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
No self-respecting person could accept such an affront with equanimity. Shorne 01:07, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Shorne and VeryVerily both edited this article today, and since I considered this a violation of the injunction against editing articles having to do with the Cold War (Henry Kissinger is a major figure of the Cold War, as evinced by his article's placement in category:Cold War people), I blocked them both. Since I don't doubt this will lead to complaints from both, I welcome the arbitrators' opinion on this matter. —No-One Jones (m) 06:59, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Trusted administrators,
I need to inform you that User:Gzornenplatz has violated the section of the injunction that states "Gzornenplatz, Kevin Baas, Shorne, and VeryVerily are banned from reverting any article more than twice in one 24 hour period whilst Arbitration is on-going. Sysops are hereby authorised to enact 24 blocks for violations of this." Gzornenplats has violated this rule, reverting a page three times in 24 hours here: revert one, revert two, and revert three
Please ban User:Gzornenplatz for violating this injunction. Samboy 23:09, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Shorne is a dedicated POV warrior who is pushing a minority Marxist-Leninist viewpoint in violation of both Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, the propaganda and advocacy section. He engages in some discussion, but does very little research to back up his assertions or reversions, mostly demanding exhausting research by anyone he disagrees with; which when produced he ignores or discounts. See for example [1] and [2]. Fred Bauder 15:35, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
Agreed, even if we don't want to always accept the 3RR as law (and I'm not sure we shouldn't), use of 3RR paroles where necessary (and these are such cases) is a good thing. -- fvw 11:38, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
I would like to add that some of the histories of revert wars for the stated pages go back much further, and involve more users. I am not aware of the circumstances on all the pages, but I am confident that, whereever VV or TDC are involved, Gz's reasons for reverting are as he stated: because when the 3RR is not enforced, those who respect it in principle become powerless against those who disregard it in principle. Instead of becoming powerless, Gz has attempted to bring the matter to arbitration. Arbitration being rejected, he decided that he had two choices: accept VV's tyrannical behavior, or play tit-for-tat, in attempt that VV would eventually realize the futility of his ways: that if other people operated the same way as him on the wiki, nothing would ever get accomplished. I think that this is a reasonable and respectful approach to a serious and persistent problem, where petitions have been ignored. Gz respects the 3RR, to the extent that he put his reputation at risk in order to defend it when others had derelicted.
As to Shorne, he is a new user, and I have found him to be very reasonable and npov. On encountering VV's conduct, he took an assertive position almost immediately. I do not fault him for this. As with Gz, I cannot speak where I have not bore witness. Kevin Baas | talk 20:01, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
Oh, and I'm happy to submit to any disciplinary action provided that it is applied consistently and proportionally. Kevin Baas | talk 20:08, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
It seems to me that it might be wise to add the parties from the other cases as well. If Ruy Lopez is indeed a reincarnation of the users that VV and others suspect him to be, then he has a long history of edit wars. Furthermore, considering that a temporary order seemed to be in the works with Turrican before arbitrators simply stopped voting, wouldn't that now justify an actual case? Ambi 23:13, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would like to request also that anyone be temporarily banned who makes the same change twice in a row without discussing it on the talk page. Shorne 00:11, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I cannot recommend the arbitration case against User:Gzornenplatz enough, though I do not know much about the other users. Let me admit right away that I edit war at heated moments, but I do my best to follow, or at least remind myself of protocol - respect the 3RR, request protection, use Talk pages, try civility, request the same from other users. Despite these routines, there are some users, such as Gplatz, who rarely or never return the favour and do not seem to have any justifiable reason for appearing on Wikipedia other than to disrupt articles (since they never contribute any material of their own, but simply revert the constant and time consuming efforts of others - see, for example, the work that has gone into creating an NPOV image by three different users (Poccil, Nichalp, myself) at Image:IndiaNumbered.png which the above user has done nothing but revert). Their obnoxious behaviour is complemented by their refusal to engage in discussion, taking refuge in the obtuse dogmatism of edit warring, as they have nothing substantial to argue (once again, Gplatz is representative, since he reverts even pages/images that he previously did not have a problem with.) They shun Talk pages till the last moment. And when they use them, they prefer to insist rather than debate. I would personally like to see this user blocked or even banned, unless someone can point out to me anything this user has done that can be certified constructive or helpful. -- Simonides 22:47, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Just wanted to add that User:Gzornenplatz was blocked recently in the German WP for one week because of edit-wars. -- Mkogler 19:16, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Since none of the named parties except Kevin Baas have stopped or even moderated their revert wars, may I suggest that they be placed under a temporary restriction from editing articles and templates until this case is resolved? —No-One Jones (m) 17:41, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sweeping injunctions = bad idea. Discretion of any admin = very bad idea. Next thing you know I'll get a one week ban for correcting a typo on Franco-Prussian War or Wienerschnitzel. Very Verily 23:47, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Martin, do you have any idea how much vandalism I repair, and how many important articles I protect from wrecking? (Also, I note you're not including Ruy Lopez in your proposal, whose case has been merged with this one.) Very Verily 01:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Also, I should note that due to the pace of arbitration, "temporary" is anything but. This should be considered in any proposal to "sort out the mess later". Very Verily 01:59, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
May I note regarding the mention of German/Polish articles in the proposed injunction:
Has this been merged with the Ruy Lopez case or not? If so, why is he not being included in the proposals? Very Verily 04:39, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I hereby demand the resignations of James F., Martin, the Epopt, Delirium, Raul654, and mav for voting to ban me temporarily from editing articles on German or Polish subjects. These people voted in favour of the ban without even checking to see whether I was guilty of any wrongdoing on those pages. In fact, I have not even touched any article related to Germany or Poland recently, and I certainly haven't ever been involved in any edit wars on German or Polish themes. Obviously these six arbitrators did not do the minimum of investigation before rushing to take the part of fellow arbitrator Fred Bauder. Their dereliction constitutes a gross abuse of power and establishes their inability to discharge their duties with the competence and impartiality required.
I therefore demand their resignations or, failing that, their expulsion. In addition, I demand the annulment of their unjust votes to ban me.
I shall carry this complaint above the arbitration committee if the resignations are not forthcoming. Any other arbitrator who votes in favour of the proposed ban will also be asked to resign. Shorne 21:07, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing that to our attention. Since temporary injunctions are supposed to be made quickly they are made while only giving a cursorary look at the evidence. I for one saw many, many reverts by Shorne and I trusted that the ArbCom member who proposed the order knew what he was talking about so I voted for the order (I've now changed my vote and amended the order). But since your reverts seem to be in the subject areas of the Cold War and communism, I've added a proposed order that would be exactly the same as the other, but cover those subjects instead. Again, thank you for mentioning this - it would be have been pointless to ban you from editing an area you don't edit in now. -- mav 12:37, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Temporary injunctions are there to prevent further disruption while we consider a case, and I'm entirely comfortable to take a shotgun approach to that, even if it causes some temporary inconvenience. I'm also entirely comfortably with mav's correction of the temporary order. If I were corrupt, I would be making money off bribes, but regretfully I'm not making any money. Shame. Martin 17:58, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well nothing we say here appears to be being read anyway, but I'll scream in the wind that since the relief sought by Michael Snow is revert parole, but there is a proposed policy that would in effect put all of Wikipedia on revert parole, this entire arbitration may soon be made obsolete, and in fact based on the current vote tally almost certainly will be. I also note 172's case is being watered down to nothing for this very reason, so perhaps this one should be dispensed with too. Very Verily 06:02, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Six out of six arbitrators who voted for "temporary" injunction (1) did so without even examining the evidence. When I complained of a gross miscarriage of justice and demanded the resignations or expulsion of the corrupt arbitrators in question, corrupt arbitrator mav posted vindictively on my talk page his intention to have me banned from editing articles on a vast range of subjects in response to my complaint. He also unilaterally altered injunction (1) after the voting was complete. See the talk page to this article for the evidence.
It is perfectly clear that this kangaroo court has no legitimacy. I call for its immediate dissolution and replacement. Shorne 12:54, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I suppose I could mention yet again that this case was merged with that of Ruy Lopez, and he's not included in these wild injunctions. Deaf ears again, or third time's the charm? Very Verily 11:56, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
By what right do you unilaterally amend an injunction already voted on? I reject your vindictive proposal, call for its dismissal, and reiterate my demand for the resignations or expulsion of the six corrupt arbitrators who voted to ban me without even examining the evidence for two seconds. Shorne 12:49, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see VeryVerily's behaviour on Henry Kissinger. Judging from his past behaviour in editing that article, I'd say that his third change to the article—deleting an entire sentence rather than imposing his version of it again—is simply a way to skirt the "temporary" injunction against reverting an article more than twice in one day. Please give me a ruling on this question before I edit the article. Shorne 13:09, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was involved in mediating a dispute between these parties. I am now declaring that process failed. In addition, I am personally forwarding the issue of 3RR violation by some or all parties to the ArbCom. You may wish to also consider the other issues raised in the Mediation (see the relevant page). -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 18:43, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
Please ban VeryVerily. In violation of the injunction issued by the arbitrators, he has reverted List of U.S. foreign interventions since 1945 three times in the past twenty-four hours. (The last time was also a violation of policy, for he added "twoversions" after restoring his own version.) Shorne 20:23, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Now the arbitrary arbitration committee has approved yet another "temporary" ban, one vindictively drafted by mav in response to my complaint. God forfend that the "arbitrators" be accountable for their heavy-handed, corrupt acts.
Shorne 02:10, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I blocked Shorne and VeryVerily for edit warring over Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2004/Candidate statements, where both reverted at least three times. VeryVerily thinks the injunction does not apply to project pages; can we have a clarification on whether it does or not? Thanks. —No-One Jones (m) 00:31, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Against VeryVerily's claims that the block was motivated by personal animosity, I'll note that I blocked both him and Shorne at the time when I thought the injunction extended to project pages, and that I unblocked both of them when Mav clarified the injunction. If either thinks I misused my powers, they are welcome to assess community opinion via RFC. —No-One Jones (m) 06:35, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For the ninth or tenth time, I demand to know why my own request for arbitration has not yet received any votes when this one and others that were filed later have been voted on. No one on the committee has yet spoken to this question. I charge the committee with bias and abuse of power. Shorne 18:36, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The case that I brought against VeryVerily, which Ruy Lopez subsequently joined (with my approval), was "merged" with this one. I had agreed to let it be merged with the case brought by Christiankavanagh, but evidently the "arbitration" committee (which hasn't tried to arbitrate anything; there has been no discussion at all from them, not even in response to repeated procedural questions) failed to notice this offer or simply disregarded it so that it could effectively lose my complaint in this larger and more complex one, thereby nullifying it.
Michael Snow's complaint requested only the following actions:
Snow specifically denied that he was requesting bans on specific types of articles, to say nothing of bans from the entire site. Yet that is the sort of action that this committee is taking. Again, I have repeatedly endorsed the position taken by Snow and asked again and again that those conditions be imposed on all of us, myself included. Shorne 01:11, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
No self-respecting person could accept such an affront with equanimity. Shorne 01:07, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Shorne and VeryVerily both edited this article today, and since I considered this a violation of the injunction against editing articles having to do with the Cold War (Henry Kissinger is a major figure of the Cold War, as evinced by his article's placement in category:Cold War people), I blocked them both. Since I don't doubt this will lead to complaints from both, I welcome the arbitrators' opinion on this matter. —No-One Jones (m) 06:59, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Trusted administrators,
I need to inform you that User:Gzornenplatz has violated the section of the injunction that states "Gzornenplatz, Kevin Baas, Shorne, and VeryVerily are banned from reverting any article more than twice in one 24 hour period whilst Arbitration is on-going. Sysops are hereby authorised to enact 24 blocks for violations of this." Gzornenplats has violated this rule, reverting a page three times in 24 hours here: revert one, revert two, and revert three
Please ban User:Gzornenplatz for violating this injunction. Samboy 23:09, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)