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I'm the "disinterested moderator" CK mentions above (not that I consider this a particularly "official" role, I just happened by), and at this point I think I'm satisfied enough that the talk: page discussion is going nowhere that I'll add my voice to this request. VeryVerily seems to be arguing vigorously against a position that is not actually being taken by those he's arguing against (both the editors on the talk page and the version of the article he was disputing), and I think the version he wants to replace it with is highly POV. I've tried at great length to explain why I think this but it just doesn't seem to be helping and VV has rejected all the other approaches to dealing with this that are suggested on the dispute resolution page. Bryan 01:32, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Would such a record qualify for the current events section? I do have warned Turrican not to "retaliate", I however point to the fact that VeriVerily did not manage to freak out others for the first time. Get-back-world-respect 05:36, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Copied here from the main discussion because VeryVerily keeps deleting it. Shorne 22:10, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would like to add that I have been having a problem with VeryVerily as well. I also know User:Shorne has been having a problem with him as well, he unfortunately has become so unhappy he is discussing leaving Wikipedia. VeryVerily has a great technique for harrassing people - he goes through people's edit history backwards, reverting all of the changes they have made. No user page comments, nothing said on the discussion page, nothing said even on the edit except "rv". Of course, editting a dozen pages make take hours of my time, for VeryVerily it just takes one minute to wreck all of that work.
A look through the edit history [1] of Great Purge might serve as an example. Within 93 minutes (04:01, 11 Oct 2004 to 05:34, 11 Oct 2004), VeryVerily reverted the page six times. This of course is disobeying the Wikipedia:Three revert rule which he certainly knows about since he's been banned before for breaking it.
I think Great Purge is a good example because many editors and admins with different opinions have come together since September 24th to work on the article - me, Fred Bauder, Everyking, Shorne, Mikkalai, Andris, and others. VeryVerily walks into this and just starts a revert war. And not only that, he openly flouts the three revert rule, which he has been banned for before, because I suppose he figures the dispute resolution process will take forever, and perhaps he will succeed in that time in driving away someone like Shorne. I wonder what he will say that with the capable abilities of me, Fred Bauder, Everyking, Shorne, Mikkalai, Andris, and others working out a compromise on the Great Purge page, why he will say it was absolutely necessary for him to break the three revert rule and revert the page six times within 93 minutes. And of course, this is just one example of many for a user who has already been banned in the past for the same thing - breaking the reversion rules. Ruy Lopez 07:32, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I also would like to speak out and point that the reason why I am currently not active at Wikipedia anymore is exactly the fact that VV began reverting all my edits and that I simply decided that while I enjoyed Wikipedia continuously fighting against such people was a bad way to spend my free time.
I think it is time that WP-Admins take position on such issues. There are two people who try to turn Wikipedia into a US-Propaganda-Encyclopedia : VV and TDC. While TDC has a tendency to bring out the worst in people, including me, one can at least work with him - he just doesn't delete thing he doesn't like if one sources them - which is anyways always a good idea, from an academic point of view. But VV is absolutely beyond reason and I think that in this case tolerating him amounts to "collaboration". VV is not willing to work with anyone and while he reverts to vandalism himself if he doesn't like an author - kinda like a bombing run - it is only vandalism if someone reverts his edits. A classic case of Double Standards. If you let such people continue people will read in WP that the Japanese actually wanted to be nuked, that Henry Kissinger was a nice guy, that only the Commies believe that the 73 Coup in Chile was started / backed by the US and that the US has "the best Human Right Records in the world." We are not talking about POVs here, this is plain propaganda.
If you want to ban me for getting freaked out because of VV do so, but please write a warning on the front page that WP has a strong Pro-US Right-Wing Bias and that serious users should look elsewhere for information.
Turrican
I have a few questions:
Just some random thoughts from someone who does arbitration in the real world. — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 06:55, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Martin 18:47, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
We discussed this, and we generally decided that we'd like to continue to have the option to either dismiss a case quickly, or else refuse to hear it. Being largely untrained there was a feeling that we should be honest when faced with a case that is beyond our abilities to arbitrate. Martin 19:00, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I would like to congratulate the idea of this "court" and the professional way on which it promisses to deal with conflicts. Muriel 15:50, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hey, you should not put titles in comments, for it breaks the edit sections. It is unfortunate :-) fr0069
What happens if an arbitrator accepts to consider a matter against a user with whom he was involved in edit wars? I am concerned about possible bias, despite my confidence that the nominated arbitrators will known how to separate things. Muriel 08:04, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I perhaps have not read well, or not the right pages, but I have not understood whether the committee was actually talking to the disputants during arbitration. Or not at all
When you arbitrate a case, do you talk to those involved, or do you just review evidence.
In the first case, people coming to you should come with an advocate preferably to help them, and should be prepared to vocally defend their steak spinach salad. Perhaps even come with witnesses
In the second case, that means arbitration can occur even though a disputant is missing. All disputants should arrive at arbitration with a prepared case. Cases are usually prepared by lawyers. Perhaps users need recommandations of how they can organise their case, gather links, facts. Because all they will have the right to do is to give a little package that will support the case for them.
Explain to me how you organise yourself, and aside from all that paperwork about quorum and other technical considerations, what does happen exactly ? Do you plan a male only group meeting in a coffee shop tea house to talk this over between all of you, with blood and sweat dedication and duty respect, or is it more like a review of written evidence properly gathered by others ? In this case, who are the others ? Who are the gatherers ? Yous ? One of yous ? Disputants ? Before arbitration ? During arbitration ? If before, how can mediation help ? (so that we do not do twice the same work ?)
FirmLittleFluffyThing 00:53, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm going to jump in and add my experiences in bring Irismeister's case before the AC. I made my request on the page and waited to see if my request to Jimbo would bear fruit. Several other people requested the case be heard, so Jimbo passed it to the committee. Then we suddenly had an evidence page and a vote was opened to see if the members of the committee would accept the case.
I assumed that the AC members would have a glance at the evidence to see if the case seemed worthy of attention (rather than base their vote just on my official request), so I felt I had to hurry to get as much evidence as possible on the page so that AC members wouldn't vote it down without seeing the full picture. Then of course, nothing has happened for weeks as more urgent cases have been dealt with.
At the moment I find it a bit confusing that we don't know when the committee are focusing on each case, or when all evidence should ideally be presented by. People have been adding evidence to pages very late, and we don't know if this is even considered (if it falls in the time when the arbitrators are voting on findings of fact for instance). Perhaps when you've settled into a pattern on how you deal with cases, you could draw up a standard timetable/guide to help users who wish to gather evidence (you could also give an idea of how to best present evidence, should you expound on the evidence page or should you rely just on links with little commentary, etc, etc, because as we can't see the debates, we don't know how useful or persuasive you find different kinds of evidence and how to present it in a useful format). fabiform | talk 04:24, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the answers.
I suppose it is best that each disputant comes with a full description of what he is asking then.
Does the arbitration committee plan to ever accept settlements over article dispute ? Or does it consider it is out of its juridiction ? It is best we know, so that to be clear with disputants mediation is the only way.
Also, I noticed all the currents cases were accusations against one person only, perhaps sometimes with someone playing the role of the community. Do you plan to accept conjoint cases, or should these be presented separately when both disputants have requests ?
How are perceived accusations made between 2 people, not involving the community at all for example ?
Is there any arbitration decision which are not banning or slowing down, or unsysoping people, but more things like apologizing to another person ?
When there are no rules about the case, what do you plan to do ?
What is your feeling with regards to advocates ? If disputants are not really exchanging (words) with AC, what can be their role ? Just providing facts ?
FirmLittleFluffyThing 18:16, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
-> Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/JRR Trollkien
Why is access to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Mav v. 168/Evidence limited and to whom is it limited? I can only see it or post to it while logged in. 168...
I'd like to propose an additional element to add to the arbitration process. It occurred to me that while the arbitration is ongoing there is nothing in place to stop, or at least deter, the conduct that has prompted the arbitration in the first place. I suggest that Wikipedia should borrow a tool from the legal system and use temporary restraining orders to "freeze" a dispute until the AC has resolved it.
Here's how I see it working.
I see this measure as offering a number of advantages:
I leave open the question of how a TRO could be authorised. Perhaps we could give the complainant the option of requesting a TRO, with the decision being made through time-limited vote among sysops of whom a supermajority and a reasonable number of actual votes cast would required to agree the TRO (e.g. requiring a minimum of 60% in favour with at least six votes in favour).
I recognize that this probably would not be much use in the most complex cases, but for the simpler cases it might be a useful tool to adopt. -- ChrisO 18:41, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Since we are unlikely to get 5 arbitrators to quickly issue a TRO, if authorized, as part of arbitration policy, it probably should be issued by one arbitrator and take another arbitrator to overrule it. Fred Bauder 01:03, May 29, 2004 (UTC)
Fred's suggestion looks good. Seems a popular idea, too. Martin 00:47, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I also like Fred's idea. -- mav 01:15, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I too; this makes for 5 Arbitrators' votes for, and none against. If an internal measure, is it hence enacted? James F. (talk) 01:34, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
-> wikipedia talk:banning policy
Arbitrators don't set policy, just enforce it. Proposals to policy pages, please. :) Martin 23:26, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
-> Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Mr-Natural-Health
Maybe I'm missing something, but why was the request for arbitration between 172 and VV removed? Snowspinner 16:30, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)
Well, 172, at least, seems to have left Wikipedia... john k 04:20, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Editing Talk:Alternative medicine after injunction "Temporary injunction: Irismeister cannot edit any page other than his/her user and user talk pages and his/her AC pages": [6] [7] - David Gerard 22:29, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I am interested in having an arbitration of wikipedia:civility and/or wikiquette violations made by a number of prominent admins. What is most important IMO is that a precedent be formed, and a consequence given, rather than any particular shaming, loss of status, etc... These rules are simply not being enforced, and when on off chance they are given any attention, it is only in opposition to those unpopular w the community. IMO prominent community members aught also to maintain minimum standards of conduct. Things like [ this] are not good for anybody. Some of us have academic pretenses, and all of us make claim to being scholars of sorts. Ad hominem attacks, abuse or incivility of any kind really, are simply not acceptable. Sam [ Spade] 18:46, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I happen to agree with Sam on this point. Spleeman's behavior is unacceptable. Danny 22:43, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Could someone more expert in these things please look over User:The Trolls of Navarone's edits and talk page. If he's not a reincarnation, he's doing his best to look like one (a favourite slab of text of 142/Entmoots/JRR) and writes in an almost identical style. Some consider him a reincarnation already [11] but this appears disputed. I'm inclined to say "of course he bloody is", but would like the opinion of someone with more experience of the ex-user in question - David Gerard 13:58, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry Hephaestos, can you specify what behavior I am displaying that means I should be banned? I can't think of any. The Trolls of Navarone 15:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What a lot of hot air. As you know, I am sure:
The Trolls of Navarone 16:04, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It should be noted, IPs are really something that can only prove in the affirmative. That is, an identical IP proves reincarnation. A different IP does not disprove it. Snowspinner 17:42, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
I actually don't see any real evidence - sure, it looks like this user shares the politics of JRRT/EMT etc, but the edit history doesn't seem the same, except, as you note, an interest in some of the same pages. I don't think that we can say that users who agree with each other are the same, especially when there seems to be pretty compelling evidence that they are not the same (IP addresses) and nothing that the user has done that would warrent banning. Mark Richards 20:21, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I can see how you might reach that conclusion, but its not evidence, its speculation. Mark Richards 20:39, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I read the note on my page, and respect your opinion, although I disagree with it. I believe that we should ban people who make attacks on other users, vandalise pages or refuse to discuss edits in reasonable ways. I think this user has provided credible evidence that they are not the same (IP address). Yes - this could be faked, but what more do you want? They have not done anything else to deserve banning except express opinions you don't like on their user page. Don't bait people if they are not causing trouble. Mark Richards 21:13, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
You know what Mark Richards? I am becoming more and more convinced that your account is yet another manifestation of Craig Hubley. I don't know of anyone else who throws around the phrase "GFDL corpus" with a straight face or consistently comes to the defense of Hubley or his clones (but not, significantly, other trolls and troublemakers). - Hephaestos| § 22:42, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Then it's mutual. I find your brand of self-righteous abuse difficult to tolerate as well. When you're done ignoring it, maybe you'd like to explain what, exactly, you were referring to by "GFDL corpus" in this edit. Try not to crib from Consumerium. - Hephaestos| § 01:18, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, I guess the reason for not saying 'Wikipedia text and images' is that it isn't really owned by Wikipedia. One could close Wikipedia, or fork it, and keep the text and images, and that would be fine. I'm looking for a term to describe the material placed under the GFDL, not just by Wikipedia either, Internet Encyclopedia, anyone. Re the 'crisis', I actually havn't noticed one. Sure, there's always some drama, but I don't believe the sky is falling, and I believe that the way that you deal with conflict incites more. One only has to look at the edit history of your userpage to see what I mean. I think there are more effective ways to deal with these sorts of things. Best wishes, Mark Richards 22:34, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mark, I believe it would be helpful if you would show greater respect for the project's history, which is extensive and extends considerably beyond your time of involvement here.
By original intent and choice, as well as ongoing tradition in the minds of many if not most contributors, Wikipedia is the project and the text and images here are Wikipedia (though Wikipedia is many other things as well, not least of all a community). The GFDL is the choice of license, and is a means to an end rather than an end itself. Trivializing Wikipedia by calling it merely as an "access provider" to a purportedly independent "GFDL text corpus" is both factually inaccurate as well as being an affront to the project. In like fashion, referring to Wikipedia as an "accumulator of text" is inaccurate, and an affront.
The GFDL is an imperfect license. Those involved early on chose it with awareness of its flaws. GFDL is widely used and, though it has not received scrutiny in a court of law, is regarded as among the most likely licenses to remain enforcable. Alternative licenses, such as those promulgated by the Creative Commons, were not in widespread use at that time. And the cost and uncertainy of developing a Wikipedia-specific license did not seem worthwhile. Some of these discussions are archived on the meta and on the mailing list, if you should wish to review them.
Wikipedia (the content) is something that has been created by Wikipedia (the community). It is not a mere aggregation of GFDL documents authored elsewhere. The license serves the community, not the other way around. The collaborative authorship model, and the totality of Wikipedia's editorial policies and community culture have a key role in overall authorship.
There are all manner of shortcomings of the GFDL, and I take no position on its interpretation. Many have raised questions about attribution, joint authorship, handling of cover texts and invariant sections, and whatnot. The only opinion that matters on these subjects is that of a court of competent jurisdiction. Such an opinion is likely to come with the passage of years. Until then, we will all have to do the best we can, and each act according to the dictates of our own conscience.
Wikipedia chose GFDL, in awareness of its faults, to allow reuse in other media, to allow forks, and to ensure the availability of the content in perpetuity. The GFDL serves Wikipedia, not the other way around.
UninvitedCompany 00:43, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't really understand your points about the relationship between the GFDL text and the community and software. Props are due to the founders, their vision, the contributors and all involved, but the fact is that when someone presses 'submit', they maintain copyright over the material, and grant generous terms of use to anyone who wants to use them under those terms. That includes, but is not exclusive to, Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an effective and good way to build this corpus of open and free content, and it is a great front end to edit and view it, it is also an excellent group of people who do this, but it is not the same thing as the material licensed under the GDFL, which is not licensed exclusively to it (that's what 'free' means). I don't understand how pointing out this fact about the license is disrespectful or an afront. It's there in black and white, and it's not a bad thing. Mark Richards 02:15, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mark Richards 16:39, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
No time for a careful essay at the moment, but in short:
UninvitedCompany 04:15, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mark Richards 15:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that only arbitrators remove requests from this page. For example - the request to arbitrate in the case of the anon originally editing from 68.36.175.254 has been removed because the user has been hard banned for allegedly making death threats. The user denies that what he said was a death threat, and with the request being removed from here he has no route to challenge this decision (he could e-mail Jimbo, but has said that he does not wish to give his address out to any member of Wikipedia.) While I believe that a ban of this user is fully justified I also think that all users should have access to some process to challenge bans and blocks. If the arbitrators decide not to view a case, then that is in effect a review of the ban. In this case, there were three votes to accept, with the qualification from James F that if the user had made death threats arbitration was not necessary. The request was removed on that basis, but the alleged threats were not assessed by the arbitration committee. Although I've referred to a specific case, I think the principle holds for all cases. I believe we should ensure that no case is removed from this page unless it has been fully rejected by the committee. And to ensure this is so, I feel only the arbitration committee should remove requests. Please let me know if this discussion is posted in the wrong place - I wasn't sure of the best page for it. -- sannse (talk) 18:09, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It seems simple to me. Requests can be removed by arbitrators (by rejection/referral), or by the originator (dropping or withdrawing the complaint). If other people have seconded the request, they need to agree to drop it too.
Anon has recourse because he can create a new request. But he can't force someone else to remake a request they've already dropped. So this seems fine to me. Martin 23:19, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Whats going on here? Am I still in limbo, or is the vote over, or whats going on? A bit of help please. Sam [ Spade] 19:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I seem to be a bit in limbo as well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/ChrisO_and_Levzur has been ongoing since April but hasn't yet been concluded. Is there any chance of bringing it to a close? -- ChrisO 09:12, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I understand there will be additional arbitrator's elected over the next little bit, which will fix the issue with leaving folks in limbo in requests, I expect, though it won't solve requests being accepted and left in limbo. Martin 23:21, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Is this acceptable? If not, can something be done? Sam [ Spade] 18:31, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, Im sure that Lir and Sam will attempt to provide linked evidence to support their claim, before the committee makes its decision to hear it or not. - S V
Evidence moved here Re: Snowspins advice. Sam [ Spade] 22:14, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, Im sure that Lir and Sam will attempt to provide linked evidence to support their claim, before the committee makes its decision to hear it or not. - S V
I agree that it looks bad for 172 to be removing "evidence" from this page, but it's worth noting that he's not deleting evidence (the distinction is important, given that 172 is an administrator). Really, he's not just disputing the evidence, but disputing that it's appropriate to put on this page. I would suggest that people requesting arbitration may certainly start collecting any evidence they wish on subpages of their own user pages. It can then be presented formally should the Arbitration Committee actually choose to hear this case.
As the primary proponent of the earlier request involving 172 and VeryVerily, I believe that matter should not be considered by the Arbitration Committee at this time. The parties seem to have reached a workable solution and I see no indication that the dispute has resumed. In examining the situation at New Imperialism, I do not find enough similarities to warrant dredging up those issues again.
Incidentally, I believe it would be very helpful if the arbitrators voting below could indicate which of the requests above, or what aspects thereof, they are accepting or rejecting. This would make more clear what evidence is actually relevant. --
Michael Snow 20:24, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC) (amended, stricken text rendered meaningless when content was copied to this page)
Well, regardless of bizzare edit wars, I've read it now. Still need to decide how to vote, of course. Martin 21:29, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Actually removing it from the talk page too. *sigh*. Martin 17:49, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Its worth noting that not all of the links 172 removed had to do with Verily Verily; regardless of whether or not Verily Verily evidence should be mentioned here...172 is still deleting relevant evidence.
Lirath Q. Pynnor
Small talk from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Sam_Spade_and_172
I'm not playing devil's advocate here. I'm noting that the rule you're citing hasn't, in practice, been a guiding principle for some time on RfAr, nor could it be - if it were, it would go against the arbitration policy, which explicitly notes that the arbcom will hear cases where mediation is seen as unhelpful. This would be difficult to do if no such cases could be listed at RfAr. The link to ignore all rules was mostly a reminder that rigidly following the rules is not entirely consistent with said rules. :) Snowspinner 14:12, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)
Would it be acceptable to merge the two cases involving both myself and 172?
Sam [ Spade] 03:37, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I suggest the following guidelines for content of Requests for Arbitration and regarding titles for requests. Fred Bauder 14:09, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
In the first instance the title of an arbitration request derives from the initial request made by the first person who makes the request. This person may or may not be a prinicipal participant in the matter depending on who else joins in the complaint and how much they participate. However if they are a principal participant and especially if a counterclaim is made either against them or an other important participant in the matter it is reasonable that the title may be changed to reflect the major participants in the matter, not just the name of the original defendant.
Each party may present the evidence that they regard as relevant. The other party should not remove the assertions of the opposing party or the links they suggest are relevant.
Arbitrators may change the title of requests to reflect both the general nature of the matter as well as the identity of the main participants. If the complaint is generally the work of one user or a counter-claim have been filed against a user as a part of the case they may be identified in the title. The participants in the matters should not be involved in struggles to change or revert the title of a matter in order to suit them.
Almost all the comments in the arbitration requests page seem to be repeated twice.
Someone should merge both copies.
cesarb 12:29, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why were the (0/0/0/0) counts removed from each of the ===Comments and votes by arbitrators=== subsections? These were very useful since it shows, at a glance, what the progress of accepting each case is. I spent a good deal of time putting them in. -- mav 01:23, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed them because I had no idea who added them, or why, and there wasn't any discussion on it that I could see or recall - didn't even know if it was an arbitrator. Such counts imply that when I vote I should be updating them, and this takes up a good deal of time that I don't want to spend. Things that take up my time for no discernable purpose "piss me off". Given that there've been lots of similar debates about whether or not such counts are a good or bad thing, the addition of these counts without discussion "pissed me off".
However, if someone else wants to spend their time keeping such counts up to date, and doesn't care if I just ignore them, that's fine by me. Heck, I'll even make it up to mav by putting the inaccurate counts I removed back in. Martin 17:29, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This case has been languishing for a long time, as has UninvitedCompany's (still-open?) request. Since JRR Trollkien is now blocked indefinitely, and nobody seems to be disputing the block anymore, can we please just close the case and the request to reduce the clutter? -- Michael Snow 21:56, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
My god! The requests for arbitration page is COMPLETELY incomprehensible. I'd like to do some arbitration but I can't for the life of me understand what's going on. Does anyone have any refactoring suggestions? -- The Cunctator
I believe Muriel G would also agree with this request, the following exchange is from her talkpage:
No she would not. I never dealt with 172 (except in VfD) so i couldnt have an opinion on the matter. And i apreciate if people refrain from putting words into my mouth, especially when they are grossely out of context. Muriel G 18:34, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Nobody put any words in your mouth; in the above exchange, you clearly stated that 172s actions were "why i moved to wiki.pt". If you mispoke -- that is your fault. I would guess the real problem here, is not that Muriel objects to 172s behaviour; but that she is afraid of being labeled a "troll" and facing future punitive actions by the cabal. Lirath Q. Pynnor
But she apparently needs you to speak for her... Lirath Q. Pynnor
I'd like to note that I don't think VV's conduct can be reasonably looked at without looking at the larger issue of his treatment by the community at large, and, specifically, by people who are supposed to be in the position of settling disputes. I refer here to [12], which I think probably had the effect of making both requests for comment and mediation ineffective options for VeryVerily. I'm not asking for sanction against Danny (Or against Mirv or Hephestos, both of whom later signed this summary), but I think that this action and the consequences it probably had for dispute resolution with VV need to be taken into account. Snowspinner 16:45, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)
Should the last section:
be included in this policy? It has certainly caused enough trouble... Fred Bauder 21:28, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
In this case I think debate is very much in order, negotiation and mediation in fact. That may be part of what is happening here. You folks may be trying to communicate with each other more than you are with us. Fred Bauder 22:58, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
They show what you might expect if the case eventually proceeds to arbitration. They are not enforced by arbitration but by users and administrators. The proposed decision does not include prohibiting Rex071404 from editing John Kerry except as a temporary measure. I don't think that is the best solution, I think a solution you yourselves agree to is the best solution which is why I request you try mediation. Fred Bauder 13:36, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
However things might go the other way, Rex071404 might be banned from editing and perhaps others too. It could even happen that the arbitration committee is unable to reach a decision. The main point to take is that it will not be your decision while what you agree to during mediation will be. Fred Bauder 14:04, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
[Placed here, as the case is being refused very shortly after the comment was posted]. James F. (talk) 00:09, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I accept the decision of the arbitrators, as I respect the imperative to preserve the due process of justice. Yet, I would like to note my grievance. I do not feel that I have done anything to deserve being temporarily banned from the George W. Bush page. Nor do I feel that Neutrality, Gzornenplatz, Get Back World Respect, Rex, Cecropia, Wolfman, or Pedant, or any other contributors for that matter, deserve this tacit sanction, which we will now be recieving for the sixth consecutive time. Kevin Baas | talk 23:29, 2004 Aug 29 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be of some concern that of all the cases being heard at present, all but two have had no action taken in the last week? As far as I can see, there's no reason for the delay, so what's the holdup? Ambi 02:18, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is extremely important in order that your submitted evidence be considered by the Arbitrators that when you cite evidence to provide a link to the exact edit which displays the transaction, links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=0&oldid=5584644] [13].
After arbitration was rejected, Gzornenplatz immediately requested mediation. VV has not expressed any desire for mediation, but, to the contrary, has pleaded that Gzornenplatz's desire to resolve the dispute is ingenuine and tainted, and thus the case should be dismissed. Mediation has not yet begun.
The GWB article has been protected, as predicted, for the 6th time. It was unprotected, and protected again, for the 7th time, this time indefinitely. Contributors to the GWB page are now discussing the issue of the page protection on Talk:George W. Bush. Kevin Baas | talk 00:40, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)
A compromise page for the GWB article was made to develop consensus so that the GWB article could be unprotected. I have recused myself from said page. A message on that page explicitly states: "This is a temporary page created to find a compromise on the content of George W. Bush. If the same edit war continues on this page, and no progress is made, it may be deleted." In spite of this explicit warning, VV has continued the same revert war against everyone on the compromise page [14], causing the compromise page to be "pseudoprotected", with the message "This page is presently the subject of an editing dispute. Please see the discussion page for details and avoid making edits related to this dispute until it is resolved." Kevin Baas | talk 21:37, 2004 Sep 17 (UTC)
VeriVerily has fought edit wars in numerous articles, amongst others Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Anti-American sentiment, George W. Bush, and Project for a New American Century. He completely refuses to accept consensus and often does not even discuss until several others protest. Although numerous pages had to be protected because of him he often started to fight about the same points again just after unprotection. I see no way to deal with such behaviour other than ban him, cf. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/VeryVerily2 Get-back-world-respect 01:36, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is simply wrong to remove the link to a sister wiki, In Memoriam Wiki. No one should have to explain this to you and having been informed of it you should accept it. Fred Bauder 13:37, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
When is there likely to be any update in the matter of Kenneth Alan? Mintguy (T) 21:58, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The arbitrators, whose caseload has never been larger, I think, admittedly moved more slowly than is usual in considering Kenneth Alan's case. The decision is in the works, however, and several updates have been made today, which I hope is an indication that the case will soon be successfully closed. Jwrosenzweig 20:04, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In response to the comments and votes thus far from →Raul654 and Fred Bauder, I'm writing to explain why I proposed starting a new proceeding.
The main pending proceeding involving Rex is quite extensive. A major problem is the constant flood of new issues that arise, most of which we just haven't added to the proceeding. I'm partway through a writeup of his misconduct that resulted in the first protection of the Texans for Truth page, but it's just so unrewarding to deal with such things; I admit I've been slack about it. The problem with Rex isn't an occasional unfortunate incident. It's a constant pattern of improper conduct. Scarcely a day goes by when he doesn't do something that, in my personal opinion, merits some penalty.
Are we to add all of these things to the existing proceeding? For comparison purposes, I checked the "Evidence" pages of the five other arbitrations that are currently listed, along with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404, as being in the Voting stage. The Evidence pages weigh in as follows: Lance6wins, 31kb; RK, 57kb; Avala, Kenneth Alan, and RickK vs. Guanaco - too small for a size to be reported in the edit window. By contrast, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Evidence is already at 183kb. It's larger than all the others combined. It's larger than the committee can reasonably be expected to deal with. (I assume you all knew that being on the committee would involve some unreasonable demands on you, but the fewer the better.) If, every few days, that page is further augmented by the chronicling of the most egregious of Rex's latest misdeeds, plus of course his responses, how will the proceeding be manageable? It will turn into a blog about Rex and will never be ready for decision.
There's certainly a logical relationship between this complaint and the earlier one. In beginning a new proceeding, I was trying to be practical. My thought was that Rex's abuse of the Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress page could conveniently be separated out from his improper edits of articles. I deliberately kept the focus of this complaint narrow so that all the evidence from both sides could be presented succinctly and the matter decided quickly. The remedy sought is quite mild. My hope was that a 24-hour block imposed by the committee would convey the message to Rex that he needs to clean up his act. I admit that the previous 24-hour block and the committee's continuing temporary injunction haven't had that effect, but I thought it was at least worth a shot.
From the point of view of the committee members, and from the point of view of those of us trying to deal with Rex's constant disruptions, I respectfully submit that this complaint should be accepted as a separate proceeding. JamesMLane 14:58, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Also, see this [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 16:49, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, indeed we do want to add all of these things to the existing proceeding. Whether this a minor problem related to partisan fervor during an election or a general problem that affects all of his edits will determine the scope of suggested remedies. Speaking of which, do either of you have suggested remedies you might propose? Fred Bauder 17:49, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
To put it simply - we don't want the unabridged version of every edit Rex has made to Wikipedia. We don't have all the time in the world to pour over the evidence, so I recommend that you digest it down to something a little more concise and managable than 183 kb. See User:Raul654/Plautus for an example of a good evidence page. →Raul654 19:54, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
Another thing that is holding this up: all of you, despite efforts at explaining what's happening, have provided very few links to actual edits. For example here is a link to Raul654's edit above [16] This is what a person needs to actually look at an edit without having to look all over. It does not work to simply quote an edit; we want to look at it and view it in its context. Fred Bauder 22:30, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
The RfAr asserts that changes to Stolen Honor were not vandalism but were instead being made in the course of an edit dispute. Rex responds by defending his position in the edit dispute, thus helping to establish that there was one, and by lashing out at me and other Wikipedians. Because his response in no way undercuts the RfAr, I see no need to reply to him here. JamesMLane 17:04, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
makes a strong case for vandalism. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 20:53, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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I'm the "disinterested moderator" CK mentions above (not that I consider this a particularly "official" role, I just happened by), and at this point I think I'm satisfied enough that the talk: page discussion is going nowhere that I'll add my voice to this request. VeryVerily seems to be arguing vigorously against a position that is not actually being taken by those he's arguing against (both the editors on the talk page and the version of the article he was disputing), and I think the version he wants to replace it with is highly POV. I've tried at great length to explain why I think this but it just doesn't seem to be helping and VV has rejected all the other approaches to dealing with this that are suggested on the dispute resolution page. Bryan 01:32, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Would such a record qualify for the current events section? I do have warned Turrican not to "retaliate", I however point to the fact that VeriVerily did not manage to freak out others for the first time. Get-back-world-respect 05:36, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Copied here from the main discussion because VeryVerily keeps deleting it. Shorne 22:10, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I would like to add that I have been having a problem with VeryVerily as well. I also know User:Shorne has been having a problem with him as well, he unfortunately has become so unhappy he is discussing leaving Wikipedia. VeryVerily has a great technique for harrassing people - he goes through people's edit history backwards, reverting all of the changes they have made. No user page comments, nothing said on the discussion page, nothing said even on the edit except "rv". Of course, editting a dozen pages make take hours of my time, for VeryVerily it just takes one minute to wreck all of that work.
A look through the edit history [1] of Great Purge might serve as an example. Within 93 minutes (04:01, 11 Oct 2004 to 05:34, 11 Oct 2004), VeryVerily reverted the page six times. This of course is disobeying the Wikipedia:Three revert rule which he certainly knows about since he's been banned before for breaking it.
I think Great Purge is a good example because many editors and admins with different opinions have come together since September 24th to work on the article - me, Fred Bauder, Everyking, Shorne, Mikkalai, Andris, and others. VeryVerily walks into this and just starts a revert war. And not only that, he openly flouts the three revert rule, which he has been banned for before, because I suppose he figures the dispute resolution process will take forever, and perhaps he will succeed in that time in driving away someone like Shorne. I wonder what he will say that with the capable abilities of me, Fred Bauder, Everyking, Shorne, Mikkalai, Andris, and others working out a compromise on the Great Purge page, why he will say it was absolutely necessary for him to break the three revert rule and revert the page six times within 93 minutes. And of course, this is just one example of many for a user who has already been banned in the past for the same thing - breaking the reversion rules. Ruy Lopez 07:32, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I also would like to speak out and point that the reason why I am currently not active at Wikipedia anymore is exactly the fact that VV began reverting all my edits and that I simply decided that while I enjoyed Wikipedia continuously fighting against such people was a bad way to spend my free time.
I think it is time that WP-Admins take position on such issues. There are two people who try to turn Wikipedia into a US-Propaganda-Encyclopedia : VV and TDC. While TDC has a tendency to bring out the worst in people, including me, one can at least work with him - he just doesn't delete thing he doesn't like if one sources them - which is anyways always a good idea, from an academic point of view. But VV is absolutely beyond reason and I think that in this case tolerating him amounts to "collaboration". VV is not willing to work with anyone and while he reverts to vandalism himself if he doesn't like an author - kinda like a bombing run - it is only vandalism if someone reverts his edits. A classic case of Double Standards. If you let such people continue people will read in WP that the Japanese actually wanted to be nuked, that Henry Kissinger was a nice guy, that only the Commies believe that the 73 Coup in Chile was started / backed by the US and that the US has "the best Human Right Records in the world." We are not talking about POVs here, this is plain propaganda.
If you want to ban me for getting freaked out because of VV do so, but please write a warning on the front page that WP has a strong Pro-US Right-Wing Bias and that serious users should look elsewhere for information.
Turrican
I have a few questions:
Just some random thoughts from someone who does arbitration in the real world. — Alex756 [http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex756 talk] 06:55, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Martin 18:47, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)
We discussed this, and we generally decided that we'd like to continue to have the option to either dismiss a case quickly, or else refuse to hear it. Being largely untrained there was a feeling that we should be honest when faced with a case that is beyond our abilities to arbitrate. Martin 19:00, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I would like to congratulate the idea of this "court" and the professional way on which it promisses to deal with conflicts. Muriel 15:50, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Hey, you should not put titles in comments, for it breaks the edit sections. It is unfortunate :-) fr0069
What happens if an arbitrator accepts to consider a matter against a user with whom he was involved in edit wars? I am concerned about possible bias, despite my confidence that the nominated arbitrators will known how to separate things. Muriel 08:04, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I perhaps have not read well, or not the right pages, but I have not understood whether the committee was actually talking to the disputants during arbitration. Or not at all
When you arbitrate a case, do you talk to those involved, or do you just review evidence.
In the first case, people coming to you should come with an advocate preferably to help them, and should be prepared to vocally defend their steak spinach salad. Perhaps even come with witnesses
In the second case, that means arbitration can occur even though a disputant is missing. All disputants should arrive at arbitration with a prepared case. Cases are usually prepared by lawyers. Perhaps users need recommandations of how they can organise their case, gather links, facts. Because all they will have the right to do is to give a little package that will support the case for them.
Explain to me how you organise yourself, and aside from all that paperwork about quorum and other technical considerations, what does happen exactly ? Do you plan a male only group meeting in a coffee shop tea house to talk this over between all of you, with blood and sweat dedication and duty respect, or is it more like a review of written evidence properly gathered by others ? In this case, who are the others ? Who are the gatherers ? Yous ? One of yous ? Disputants ? Before arbitration ? During arbitration ? If before, how can mediation help ? (so that we do not do twice the same work ?)
FirmLittleFluffyThing 00:53, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm going to jump in and add my experiences in bring Irismeister's case before the AC. I made my request on the page and waited to see if my request to Jimbo would bear fruit. Several other people requested the case be heard, so Jimbo passed it to the committee. Then we suddenly had an evidence page and a vote was opened to see if the members of the committee would accept the case.
I assumed that the AC members would have a glance at the evidence to see if the case seemed worthy of attention (rather than base their vote just on my official request), so I felt I had to hurry to get as much evidence as possible on the page so that AC members wouldn't vote it down without seeing the full picture. Then of course, nothing has happened for weeks as more urgent cases have been dealt with.
At the moment I find it a bit confusing that we don't know when the committee are focusing on each case, or when all evidence should ideally be presented by. People have been adding evidence to pages very late, and we don't know if this is even considered (if it falls in the time when the arbitrators are voting on findings of fact for instance). Perhaps when you've settled into a pattern on how you deal with cases, you could draw up a standard timetable/guide to help users who wish to gather evidence (you could also give an idea of how to best present evidence, should you expound on the evidence page or should you rely just on links with little commentary, etc, etc, because as we can't see the debates, we don't know how useful or persuasive you find different kinds of evidence and how to present it in a useful format). fabiform | talk 04:24, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the answers.
I suppose it is best that each disputant comes with a full description of what he is asking then.
Does the arbitration committee plan to ever accept settlements over article dispute ? Or does it consider it is out of its juridiction ? It is best we know, so that to be clear with disputants mediation is the only way.
Also, I noticed all the currents cases were accusations against one person only, perhaps sometimes with someone playing the role of the community. Do you plan to accept conjoint cases, or should these be presented separately when both disputants have requests ?
How are perceived accusations made between 2 people, not involving the community at all for example ?
Is there any arbitration decision which are not banning or slowing down, or unsysoping people, but more things like apologizing to another person ?
When there are no rules about the case, what do you plan to do ?
What is your feeling with regards to advocates ? If disputants are not really exchanging (words) with AC, what can be their role ? Just providing facts ?
FirmLittleFluffyThing 18:16, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
-> Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/JRR Trollkien
Why is access to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Mav v. 168/Evidence limited and to whom is it limited? I can only see it or post to it while logged in. 168...
I'd like to propose an additional element to add to the arbitration process. It occurred to me that while the arbitration is ongoing there is nothing in place to stop, or at least deter, the conduct that has prompted the arbitration in the first place. I suggest that Wikipedia should borrow a tool from the legal system and use temporary restraining orders to "freeze" a dispute until the AC has resolved it.
Here's how I see it working.
I see this measure as offering a number of advantages:
I leave open the question of how a TRO could be authorised. Perhaps we could give the complainant the option of requesting a TRO, with the decision being made through time-limited vote among sysops of whom a supermajority and a reasonable number of actual votes cast would required to agree the TRO (e.g. requiring a minimum of 60% in favour with at least six votes in favour).
I recognize that this probably would not be much use in the most complex cases, but for the simpler cases it might be a useful tool to adopt. -- ChrisO 18:41, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
Since we are unlikely to get 5 arbitrators to quickly issue a TRO, if authorized, as part of arbitration policy, it probably should be issued by one arbitrator and take another arbitrator to overrule it. Fred Bauder 01:03, May 29, 2004 (UTC)
Fred's suggestion looks good. Seems a popular idea, too. Martin 00:47, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I also like Fred's idea. -- mav 01:15, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I too; this makes for 5 Arbitrators' votes for, and none against. If an internal measure, is it hence enacted? James F. (talk) 01:34, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
-> wikipedia talk:banning policy
Arbitrators don't set policy, just enforce it. Proposals to policy pages, please. :) Martin 23:26, 29 May 2004 (UTC)
-> Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Mr-Natural-Health
Maybe I'm missing something, but why was the request for arbitration between 172 and VV removed? Snowspinner 16:30, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)
Well, 172, at least, seems to have left Wikipedia... john k 04:20, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Editing Talk:Alternative medicine after injunction "Temporary injunction: Irismeister cannot edit any page other than his/her user and user talk pages and his/her AC pages": [6] [7] - David Gerard 22:29, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I am interested in having an arbitration of wikipedia:civility and/or wikiquette violations made by a number of prominent admins. What is most important IMO is that a precedent be formed, and a consequence given, rather than any particular shaming, loss of status, etc... These rules are simply not being enforced, and when on off chance they are given any attention, it is only in opposition to those unpopular w the community. IMO prominent community members aught also to maintain minimum standards of conduct. Things like [ this] are not good for anybody. Some of us have academic pretenses, and all of us make claim to being scholars of sorts. Ad hominem attacks, abuse or incivility of any kind really, are simply not acceptable. Sam [ Spade] 18:46, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I happen to agree with Sam on this point. Spleeman's behavior is unacceptable. Danny 22:43, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Could someone more expert in these things please look over User:The Trolls of Navarone's edits and talk page. If he's not a reincarnation, he's doing his best to look like one (a favourite slab of text of 142/Entmoots/JRR) and writes in an almost identical style. Some consider him a reincarnation already [11] but this appears disputed. I'm inclined to say "of course he bloody is", but would like the opinion of someone with more experience of the ex-user in question - David Gerard 13:58, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry Hephaestos, can you specify what behavior I am displaying that means I should be banned? I can't think of any. The Trolls of Navarone 15:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
What a lot of hot air. As you know, I am sure:
The Trolls of Navarone 16:04, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It should be noted, IPs are really something that can only prove in the affirmative. That is, an identical IP proves reincarnation. A different IP does not disprove it. Snowspinner 17:42, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
I actually don't see any real evidence - sure, it looks like this user shares the politics of JRRT/EMT etc, but the edit history doesn't seem the same, except, as you note, an interest in some of the same pages. I don't think that we can say that users who agree with each other are the same, especially when there seems to be pretty compelling evidence that they are not the same (IP addresses) and nothing that the user has done that would warrent banning. Mark Richards 20:21, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I can see how you might reach that conclusion, but its not evidence, its speculation. Mark Richards 20:39, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I read the note on my page, and respect your opinion, although I disagree with it. I believe that we should ban people who make attacks on other users, vandalise pages or refuse to discuss edits in reasonable ways. I think this user has provided credible evidence that they are not the same (IP address). Yes - this could be faked, but what more do you want? They have not done anything else to deserve banning except express opinions you don't like on their user page. Don't bait people if they are not causing trouble. Mark Richards 21:13, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
You know what Mark Richards? I am becoming more and more convinced that your account is yet another manifestation of Craig Hubley. I don't know of anyone else who throws around the phrase "GFDL corpus" with a straight face or consistently comes to the defense of Hubley or his clones (but not, significantly, other trolls and troublemakers). - Hephaestos| § 22:42, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Then it's mutual. I find your brand of self-righteous abuse difficult to tolerate as well. When you're done ignoring it, maybe you'd like to explain what, exactly, you were referring to by "GFDL corpus" in this edit. Try not to crib from Consumerium. - Hephaestos| § 01:18, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, I guess the reason for not saying 'Wikipedia text and images' is that it isn't really owned by Wikipedia. One could close Wikipedia, or fork it, and keep the text and images, and that would be fine. I'm looking for a term to describe the material placed under the GFDL, not just by Wikipedia either, Internet Encyclopedia, anyone. Re the 'crisis', I actually havn't noticed one. Sure, there's always some drama, but I don't believe the sky is falling, and I believe that the way that you deal with conflict incites more. One only has to look at the edit history of your userpage to see what I mean. I think there are more effective ways to deal with these sorts of things. Best wishes, Mark Richards 22:34, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mark, I believe it would be helpful if you would show greater respect for the project's history, which is extensive and extends considerably beyond your time of involvement here.
By original intent and choice, as well as ongoing tradition in the minds of many if not most contributors, Wikipedia is the project and the text and images here are Wikipedia (though Wikipedia is many other things as well, not least of all a community). The GFDL is the choice of license, and is a means to an end rather than an end itself. Trivializing Wikipedia by calling it merely as an "access provider" to a purportedly independent "GFDL text corpus" is both factually inaccurate as well as being an affront to the project. In like fashion, referring to Wikipedia as an "accumulator of text" is inaccurate, and an affront.
The GFDL is an imperfect license. Those involved early on chose it with awareness of its flaws. GFDL is widely used and, though it has not received scrutiny in a court of law, is regarded as among the most likely licenses to remain enforcable. Alternative licenses, such as those promulgated by the Creative Commons, were not in widespread use at that time. And the cost and uncertainy of developing a Wikipedia-specific license did not seem worthwhile. Some of these discussions are archived on the meta and on the mailing list, if you should wish to review them.
Wikipedia (the content) is something that has been created by Wikipedia (the community). It is not a mere aggregation of GFDL documents authored elsewhere. The license serves the community, not the other way around. The collaborative authorship model, and the totality of Wikipedia's editorial policies and community culture have a key role in overall authorship.
There are all manner of shortcomings of the GFDL, and I take no position on its interpretation. Many have raised questions about attribution, joint authorship, handling of cover texts and invariant sections, and whatnot. The only opinion that matters on these subjects is that of a court of competent jurisdiction. Such an opinion is likely to come with the passage of years. Until then, we will all have to do the best we can, and each act according to the dictates of our own conscience.
Wikipedia chose GFDL, in awareness of its faults, to allow reuse in other media, to allow forks, and to ensure the availability of the content in perpetuity. The GFDL serves Wikipedia, not the other way around.
UninvitedCompany 00:43, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't really understand your points about the relationship between the GFDL text and the community and software. Props are due to the founders, their vision, the contributors and all involved, but the fact is that when someone presses 'submit', they maintain copyright over the material, and grant generous terms of use to anyone who wants to use them under those terms. That includes, but is not exclusive to, Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an effective and good way to build this corpus of open and free content, and it is a great front end to edit and view it, it is also an excellent group of people who do this, but it is not the same thing as the material licensed under the GDFL, which is not licensed exclusively to it (that's what 'free' means). I don't understand how pointing out this fact about the license is disrespectful or an afront. It's there in black and white, and it's not a bad thing. Mark Richards 02:15, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mark Richards 16:39, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
No time for a careful essay at the moment, but in short:
UninvitedCompany 04:15, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Mark Richards 15:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that only arbitrators remove requests from this page. For example - the request to arbitrate in the case of the anon originally editing from 68.36.175.254 has been removed because the user has been hard banned for allegedly making death threats. The user denies that what he said was a death threat, and with the request being removed from here he has no route to challenge this decision (he could e-mail Jimbo, but has said that he does not wish to give his address out to any member of Wikipedia.) While I believe that a ban of this user is fully justified I also think that all users should have access to some process to challenge bans and blocks. If the arbitrators decide not to view a case, then that is in effect a review of the ban. In this case, there were three votes to accept, with the qualification from James F that if the user had made death threats arbitration was not necessary. The request was removed on that basis, but the alleged threats were not assessed by the arbitration committee. Although I've referred to a specific case, I think the principle holds for all cases. I believe we should ensure that no case is removed from this page unless it has been fully rejected by the committee. And to ensure this is so, I feel only the arbitration committee should remove requests. Please let me know if this discussion is posted in the wrong place - I wasn't sure of the best page for it. -- sannse (talk) 18:09, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It seems simple to me. Requests can be removed by arbitrators (by rejection/referral), or by the originator (dropping or withdrawing the complaint). If other people have seconded the request, they need to agree to drop it too.
Anon has recourse because he can create a new request. But he can't force someone else to remake a request they've already dropped. So this seems fine to me. Martin 23:19, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Whats going on here? Am I still in limbo, or is the vote over, or whats going on? A bit of help please. Sam [ Spade] 19:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I seem to be a bit in limbo as well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/ChrisO_and_Levzur has been ongoing since April but hasn't yet been concluded. Is there any chance of bringing it to a close? -- ChrisO 09:12, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I understand there will be additional arbitrator's elected over the next little bit, which will fix the issue with leaving folks in limbo in requests, I expect, though it won't solve requests being accepted and left in limbo. Martin 23:21, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Is this acceptable? If not, can something be done? Sam [ Spade] 18:31, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, Im sure that Lir and Sam will attempt to provide linked evidence to support their claim, before the committee makes its decision to hear it or not. - S V
Evidence moved here Re: Snowspins advice. Sam [ Spade] 22:14, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, Im sure that Lir and Sam will attempt to provide linked evidence to support their claim, before the committee makes its decision to hear it or not. - S V
I agree that it looks bad for 172 to be removing "evidence" from this page, but it's worth noting that he's not deleting evidence (the distinction is important, given that 172 is an administrator). Really, he's not just disputing the evidence, but disputing that it's appropriate to put on this page. I would suggest that people requesting arbitration may certainly start collecting any evidence they wish on subpages of their own user pages. It can then be presented formally should the Arbitration Committee actually choose to hear this case.
As the primary proponent of the earlier request involving 172 and VeryVerily, I believe that matter should not be considered by the Arbitration Committee at this time. The parties seem to have reached a workable solution and I see no indication that the dispute has resumed. In examining the situation at New Imperialism, I do not find enough similarities to warrant dredging up those issues again.
Incidentally, I believe it would be very helpful if the arbitrators voting below could indicate which of the requests above, or what aspects thereof, they are accepting or rejecting. This would make more clear what evidence is actually relevant. --
Michael Snow 20:24, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC) (amended, stricken text rendered meaningless when content was copied to this page)
Well, regardless of bizzare edit wars, I've read it now. Still need to decide how to vote, of course. Martin 21:29, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Actually removing it from the talk page too. *sigh*. Martin 17:49, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Its worth noting that not all of the links 172 removed had to do with Verily Verily; regardless of whether or not Verily Verily evidence should be mentioned here...172 is still deleting relevant evidence.
Lirath Q. Pynnor
Small talk from Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Sam_Spade_and_172
I'm not playing devil's advocate here. I'm noting that the rule you're citing hasn't, in practice, been a guiding principle for some time on RfAr, nor could it be - if it were, it would go against the arbitration policy, which explicitly notes that the arbcom will hear cases where mediation is seen as unhelpful. This would be difficult to do if no such cases could be listed at RfAr. The link to ignore all rules was mostly a reminder that rigidly following the rules is not entirely consistent with said rules. :) Snowspinner 14:12, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)
Would it be acceptable to merge the two cases involving both myself and 172?
Sam [ Spade] 03:37, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I suggest the following guidelines for content of Requests for Arbitration and regarding titles for requests. Fred Bauder 14:09, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
In the first instance the title of an arbitration request derives from the initial request made by the first person who makes the request. This person may or may not be a prinicipal participant in the matter depending on who else joins in the complaint and how much they participate. However if they are a principal participant and especially if a counterclaim is made either against them or an other important participant in the matter it is reasonable that the title may be changed to reflect the major participants in the matter, not just the name of the original defendant.
Each party may present the evidence that they regard as relevant. The other party should not remove the assertions of the opposing party or the links they suggest are relevant.
Arbitrators may change the title of requests to reflect both the general nature of the matter as well as the identity of the main participants. If the complaint is generally the work of one user or a counter-claim have been filed against a user as a part of the case they may be identified in the title. The participants in the matters should not be involved in struggles to change or revert the title of a matter in order to suit them.
Almost all the comments in the arbitration requests page seem to be repeated twice.
Someone should merge both copies.
cesarb 12:29, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why were the (0/0/0/0) counts removed from each of the ===Comments and votes by arbitrators=== subsections? These were very useful since it shows, at a glance, what the progress of accepting each case is. I spent a good deal of time putting them in. -- mav 01:23, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I removed them because I had no idea who added them, or why, and there wasn't any discussion on it that I could see or recall - didn't even know if it was an arbitrator. Such counts imply that when I vote I should be updating them, and this takes up a good deal of time that I don't want to spend. Things that take up my time for no discernable purpose "piss me off". Given that there've been lots of similar debates about whether or not such counts are a good or bad thing, the addition of these counts without discussion "pissed me off".
However, if someone else wants to spend their time keeping such counts up to date, and doesn't care if I just ignore them, that's fine by me. Heck, I'll even make it up to mav by putting the inaccurate counts I removed back in. Martin 17:29, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This case has been languishing for a long time, as has UninvitedCompany's (still-open?) request. Since JRR Trollkien is now blocked indefinitely, and nobody seems to be disputing the block anymore, can we please just close the case and the request to reduce the clutter? -- Michael Snow 21:56, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
My god! The requests for arbitration page is COMPLETELY incomprehensible. I'd like to do some arbitration but I can't for the life of me understand what's going on. Does anyone have any refactoring suggestions? -- The Cunctator
I believe Muriel G would also agree with this request, the following exchange is from her talkpage:
No she would not. I never dealt with 172 (except in VfD) so i couldnt have an opinion on the matter. And i apreciate if people refrain from putting words into my mouth, especially when they are grossely out of context. Muriel G 18:34, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Nobody put any words in your mouth; in the above exchange, you clearly stated that 172s actions were "why i moved to wiki.pt". If you mispoke -- that is your fault. I would guess the real problem here, is not that Muriel objects to 172s behaviour; but that she is afraid of being labeled a "troll" and facing future punitive actions by the cabal. Lirath Q. Pynnor
But she apparently needs you to speak for her... Lirath Q. Pynnor
I'd like to note that I don't think VV's conduct can be reasonably looked at without looking at the larger issue of his treatment by the community at large, and, specifically, by people who are supposed to be in the position of settling disputes. I refer here to [12], which I think probably had the effect of making both requests for comment and mediation ineffective options for VeryVerily. I'm not asking for sanction against Danny (Or against Mirv or Hephestos, both of whom later signed this summary), but I think that this action and the consequences it probably had for dispute resolution with VV need to be taken into account. Snowspinner 16:45, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)
Should the last section:
be included in this policy? It has certainly caused enough trouble... Fred Bauder 21:28, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
In this case I think debate is very much in order, negotiation and mediation in fact. That may be part of what is happening here. You folks may be trying to communicate with each other more than you are with us. Fred Bauder 22:58, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
They show what you might expect if the case eventually proceeds to arbitration. They are not enforced by arbitration but by users and administrators. The proposed decision does not include prohibiting Rex071404 from editing John Kerry except as a temporary measure. I don't think that is the best solution, I think a solution you yourselves agree to is the best solution which is why I request you try mediation. Fred Bauder 13:36, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
However things might go the other way, Rex071404 might be banned from editing and perhaps others too. It could even happen that the arbitration committee is unable to reach a decision. The main point to take is that it will not be your decision while what you agree to during mediation will be. Fred Bauder 14:04, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
[Placed here, as the case is being refused very shortly after the comment was posted]. James F. (talk) 00:09, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I accept the decision of the arbitrators, as I respect the imperative to preserve the due process of justice. Yet, I would like to note my grievance. I do not feel that I have done anything to deserve being temporarily banned from the George W. Bush page. Nor do I feel that Neutrality, Gzornenplatz, Get Back World Respect, Rex, Cecropia, Wolfman, or Pedant, or any other contributors for that matter, deserve this tacit sanction, which we will now be recieving for the sixth consecutive time. Kevin Baas | talk 23:29, 2004 Aug 29 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be of some concern that of all the cases being heard at present, all but two have had no action taken in the last week? As far as I can see, there's no reason for the delay, so what's the holdup? Ambi 02:18, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is extremely important in order that your submitted evidence be considered by the Arbitrators that when you cite evidence to provide a link to the exact edit which displays the transaction, links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Anomalous_phenomenon&diff=0&oldid=5584644] [13].
After arbitration was rejected, Gzornenplatz immediately requested mediation. VV has not expressed any desire for mediation, but, to the contrary, has pleaded that Gzornenplatz's desire to resolve the dispute is ingenuine and tainted, and thus the case should be dismissed. Mediation has not yet begun.
The GWB article has been protected, as predicted, for the 6th time. It was unprotected, and protected again, for the 7th time, this time indefinitely. Contributors to the GWB page are now discussing the issue of the page protection on Talk:George W. Bush. Kevin Baas | talk 00:40, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)
A compromise page for the GWB article was made to develop consensus so that the GWB article could be unprotected. I have recused myself from said page. A message on that page explicitly states: "This is a temporary page created to find a compromise on the content of George W. Bush. If the same edit war continues on this page, and no progress is made, it may be deleted." In spite of this explicit warning, VV has continued the same revert war against everyone on the compromise page [14], causing the compromise page to be "pseudoprotected", with the message "This page is presently the subject of an editing dispute. Please see the discussion page for details and avoid making edits related to this dispute until it is resolved." Kevin Baas | talk 21:37, 2004 Sep 17 (UTC)
VeriVerily has fought edit wars in numerous articles, amongst others Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Anti-American sentiment, George W. Bush, and Project for a New American Century. He completely refuses to accept consensus and often does not even discuss until several others protest. Although numerous pages had to be protected because of him he often started to fight about the same points again just after unprotection. I see no way to deal with such behaviour other than ban him, cf. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/VeryVerily2 Get-back-world-respect 01:36, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is simply wrong to remove the link to a sister wiki, In Memoriam Wiki. No one should have to explain this to you and having been informed of it you should accept it. Fred Bauder 13:37, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
When is there likely to be any update in the matter of Kenneth Alan? Mintguy (T) 21:58, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The arbitrators, whose caseload has never been larger, I think, admittedly moved more slowly than is usual in considering Kenneth Alan's case. The decision is in the works, however, and several updates have been made today, which I hope is an indication that the case will soon be successfully closed. Jwrosenzweig 20:04, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In response to the comments and votes thus far from →Raul654 and Fred Bauder, I'm writing to explain why I proposed starting a new proceeding.
The main pending proceeding involving Rex is quite extensive. A major problem is the constant flood of new issues that arise, most of which we just haven't added to the proceeding. I'm partway through a writeup of his misconduct that resulted in the first protection of the Texans for Truth page, but it's just so unrewarding to deal with such things; I admit I've been slack about it. The problem with Rex isn't an occasional unfortunate incident. It's a constant pattern of improper conduct. Scarcely a day goes by when he doesn't do something that, in my personal opinion, merits some penalty.
Are we to add all of these things to the existing proceeding? For comparison purposes, I checked the "Evidence" pages of the five other arbitrations that are currently listed, along with Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404, as being in the Voting stage. The Evidence pages weigh in as follows: Lance6wins, 31kb; RK, 57kb; Avala, Kenneth Alan, and RickK vs. Guanaco - too small for a size to be reported in the edit window. By contrast, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Rex071404/Evidence is already at 183kb. It's larger than all the others combined. It's larger than the committee can reasonably be expected to deal with. (I assume you all knew that being on the committee would involve some unreasonable demands on you, but the fewer the better.) If, every few days, that page is further augmented by the chronicling of the most egregious of Rex's latest misdeeds, plus of course his responses, how will the proceeding be manageable? It will turn into a blog about Rex and will never be ready for decision.
There's certainly a logical relationship between this complaint and the earlier one. In beginning a new proceeding, I was trying to be practical. My thought was that Rex's abuse of the Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress page could conveniently be separated out from his improper edits of articles. I deliberately kept the focus of this complaint narrow so that all the evidence from both sides could be presented succinctly and the matter decided quickly. The remedy sought is quite mild. My hope was that a 24-hour block imposed by the committee would convey the message to Rex that he needs to clean up his act. I admit that the previous 24-hour block and the committee's continuing temporary injunction haven't had that effect, but I thought it was at least worth a shot.
From the point of view of the committee members, and from the point of view of those of us trying to deal with Rex's constant disruptions, I respectfully submit that this complaint should be accepted as a separate proceeding. JamesMLane 14:58, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Also, see this [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 16:49, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Yes, indeed we do want to add all of these things to the existing proceeding. Whether this a minor problem related to partisan fervor during an election or a general problem that affects all of his edits will determine the scope of suggested remedies. Speaking of which, do either of you have suggested remedies you might propose? Fred Bauder 17:49, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
To put it simply - we don't want the unabridged version of every edit Rex has made to Wikipedia. We don't have all the time in the world to pour over the evidence, so I recommend that you digest it down to something a little more concise and managable than 183 kb. See User:Raul654/Plautus for an example of a good evidence page. →Raul654 19:54, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
Another thing that is holding this up: all of you, despite efforts at explaining what's happening, have provided very few links to actual edits. For example here is a link to Raul654's edit above [16] This is what a person needs to actually look at an edit without having to look all over. It does not work to simply quote an edit; we want to look at it and view it in its context. Fred Bauder 22:30, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
The RfAr asserts that changes to Stolen Honor were not vandalism but were instead being made in the course of an edit dispute. Rex responds by defending his position in the edit dispute, thus helping to establish that there was one, and by lashing out at me and other Wikipedians. Because his response in no way undercuts the RfAr, I see no need to reply to him here. JamesMLane 17:04, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
makes a strong case for vandalism. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 20:53, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)