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If a registered user (let's say, an admin) casts inappropriate votes (i.e., BS reasoning) on multiple RFAdminship's, can he be brought before RFArb? Note that he hasn't defended these votes, and when one of the nominees in question (not me) posted a question on his user page, it went unanswered. Could I bring him before the committee? (The user in question: User:freestylefrappe; one of the RFA's: Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Lifeisunfair) Matt Yeager 09:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a message to the ArbCom team.
I have been advised that User:Poetlister was indefinitely banned because of being a suspected sock puppet of User:RachelBrown, which apparently was done because of a ruling by the Arbitration Committee. I asked to be directed to where this has happened, and no answer was given (in 6 hours). I have searched your archives and cannot find the existence of an arbitration against Poetlister, nor can I find any administrative notes regarding the lead up to this ban. Please can you direct me towards where this has happened.
The claim is that Poetlister and RachelBrown both voted in the same manner on up to 5 AFDs, and that this may have influenced closing admins. However, AFD is not a vote, so I do not see how this can be a bannable offence, even if they were the same person. If they were, they would be guilty of sock puppetry, which is bad, but surely not something which can be punished by an indefinite ban.
Secondly, RachelBrown last used Wikipedia on 10 December 2005, the last major contribution being 3 December 2005, yet Poetlister was banned on 22 December 2005, fully 2 weeks after RachelBrown last edited. As such, a claim of sock puppetry seems to be theoretically impossible, unless it is a historical case, as RachelBrown has not even edited anything for 2 weeks (3 weeks since any major edits). Thus, if there were any evidence of sock puppetry, it could only have happened prior to this.
Thirdly, RachelBrown, Poetlister and a 3rd user had lodged complaints with regards to the actions of Lulu of the Lotus Eaters, with support from SlimVirgin with regards to their editing of List of Jewish jurists, specifically that Lulu had violated 3RR, had spuriously added tags, had wiped useful content, had wrongly ignored evidence of claims and claimed WP:V violations on cited sources, and removed lists. At one point, Lulu deleted names from the list of people who were "Judge of the Supreme Court of Israel" claiming that there was no evidence that they were Jewish. Lulu also deleted names of people who were listed in the "Jewish Year Book", stating that if its not on the internet its not evidence, in spite of quotes and ISBN numbers given. Generally, Lulu failed to adhere to WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE and may have engaged in WP:No personal attacks against these users.
This case was at the stage of mediation, and Lulu refused mediation, meaning that it would then go forward to a Request for Comment, and may have ended up in the Arbitration Committee. In effect, it was already at the RfC stage, although this had not been formalised.
The blocking could be seen as a deliberate disruption of due process, and it needs to be explained in full, especially because of the nature of the behaviour of Lulu et al in relation to this. I note an existing ArbCom surrounding User:SlimVirgin, and this could potentially be added to that in some way. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 05:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Please note that this was a request for clarification directed to Arbitration Committee members, not to Lulu, who is not an arbitration member and hence is not someone whose input is welcome.
I have never met Poetlister or had any contact with any of the persons involved, and, as has been stated and proven elsewhere, my involvement was that I received an e-mail from Poetlister asking for me to help her, as I had helped out many other newbies in distress over similar incidents.
Lulu has gone to many places making false claims about me, which I believe has contributed to this problem. I ask that her comments here be disregarded as this is purely a request for clarification towards ArbCom members, rather than being an invitation to personal attacks from Lulu. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 19:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with any pending arbitration. From the block log:
Mindspillage blocked Poetlister for vote stacking, using technical evidence provided by checkuser. [1] Kelly Martin rechecked hte evidence and came to thes same conclusion [2] There's nothing to see here, move along. Raul654 20:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
At this point, I have little expectation that Jimbo will ever actually hear my appeal, although he has said he would. It's been well over a month now. I think something else needs to be considered. What if we had a single person hear the appeal, but not Jimbo, acting in Jimbo's place? Or a small committee of three, something of that sort? If it is clear Jimbo is, for practical purposes, no longer fulfilling his role in this regard, we need to develop an alternative process. Everyking 06:47, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Given that (1) you were blocked a few days ago for sniping at snowspinner, (2) had to sign a special agreement to be unblocked just a couple days ago, and then (3) within an hour or so after it expired you immediately went back to sniping at Snowspinner - it is clear and demonstrable that you have no intention of leaving snowspinner alone if we suspend the decision. Raul654 18:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Whats the big deal about Snowspinner? Can't they just have it out and be done w it? Sam Spade 19:10, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
IMO their both good guys, and should be able to resolve their differences. My guess is that (if done properly) would work better than an artificial armistace. My advice is for them to try chatting on another medium. I have found I get on much better w some people via a different medium (email, IM, etc...). Of course they'd have to both be willing, and etc... Sam Spade 19:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm... perhaps you have too much in common? Sam Spade 19:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
It's not just snowspinner - prior to the third arbitration decision, EK had basically taken to sniping at (among other things) every arbcom decision as well, without researching the facts Raul654 19:42, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I think we could all resolve to be more cautious and less controversial. I do. Sam Spade 21:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not seeing any real responses to the actual proposal I made. Everyking 22:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Raul, your 11th law is stupid - people who are not harmed don't complain. For that reason, the pool of complainers will contain only those harmed - rightly or wrongly. For your rule to be valid, you need to add "where's there's smoke, there's fire" and the 80/20 rule. Combine those and we find that 20% of the time, complainers tend to be right. This is my observation and it's why I now edit exclusively as an anon-ip. Too many petty snipers around who heave around charges and acccusations. As anon-ip, I can change my persona like others change their socks. On the other hand, EK is complaining because his EK persona is important to him. My advice to EK is: change your IP and re-register with a new name. Edit under new name in parallel with the EK account and only drop EK if/when Arb-bullies cut the crap. If they never do, EK has new persona to move to. BTW: Raul needs a 12th rule: The more "decisions" rendered and "bannings" which occur, the greater the number of socks, anon-ips and re-joiners. 70.84.56.175 08:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I gotta say something since this is the same person who faulted me just a few days ago for doing the exact same thing he's doing now. [4]
My belief here (considering I don't see how what he did there didn't violate WP:POINT for disruptiveness, thus making it impossible to WP:AGF in this case), is that Tony's trying to strawman himself, thus trying to gain pity for himself after a series of incidents( see this as well, as no doubt other things) of what he and Kelly Martin termed as a "entering an incandescent rage", or that this is some desperate plea for help.
Tony is like many other prolific editors: he often creates problems whenever it comes to a page where there's something for something, but he's one of our finest elsewhere. And much like others afflicted with this ailment, which seems corrolary to Luigi 30's Law, he is quickly burning out, perhaps to the point where he will leave forever.
Ultimately, the issue here isn't Tony. Tony's just a symptom of a much larger problem that most people have ignored and some have tried to fix until they gave up to the futility of their circumstances. That problem is simple: Our policy system no longer works.
Tony's issue here with the Catholic Alliance is a common one, most policies/guidelines contradict other polices and guidelines, which in itself is ultimately contradicted by WP:IAR, a rule that is becoming more and more commonly used as these contradictions become endemic, despite people such as Tony who decry IAR while using it in cases like these recent mfd (Perhaps it should be "Ignore Some Rules", but you get my drift.)
This needs to be discussed in greater detail, but for now, Tony needs to be far away from and of the something for something pages. Either from a mandatory wikivacation or from refocusing his efforts on another project or a whole bunch of barnstars cheering him up so he doesn't feel like he's alone trying to "fix" things or what have you, I know first hand that it sucks feeling at the end of your wick like you have to save Wikipedia singlehanded, i've felt like this for the past few months.
And remember, the longer we have to wait for the reform of creation/refinement/annulment/enforcement regarding policies and guidelines, the more times you'll see moments like this. karmafist 08:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I have no intention of going looking for trouble. If left alone, I will leave alone. Phil Sandifer 17:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Will this new ruling affect my ability to participate in dispute resolution with Snowspinner? At present I am planning on an Arb case against him. Everyking 05:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
User:Benjamin Gatti has posted several "comments on above" on his Arbcom evidence page. I thought that comments like that weren't allowed on the evidence pages? As proof that it's ok, Ben points to the Deeceevoice case, where it wasn't questioned. Could you clarify this for me? I always thought that the "evidence anaysis" part of the Workshop was for this purpose and that the evidence page was supposed to just have...well...evidence. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 06:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Right from the evidence page:
"If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user."
Pretty clear I'd say. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 07:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I have an idea for a compromise about the term expiration question: how about the ArbCom doesn't accept any new cases until Feb., but it can continue working on already accepted cases during January? Everyking 06:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Not accepting cases would result in a big backlog. A few of the refused cases would involve serious disruption. (Although opinions may differ regarding our effectiveness.) Fred Bauder 15:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I can only conclude that this entire thread has been, from its beginning, some form of performance art or improv comedy. Raul654 20:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Everyking's statement that the current ArbCom has not been doing a very effective job, but both of Everyking's suggestions miss the whole point and would make things worse. The problem with the current ArbCom is an institutional one rather than a pesonal one. It is not that it consists of the wrong arbitrators, which seems to be what Everyking is saying. It is that it has more cases than it can handle in a timely manner under the current procedures. As a result, it takes too long to ban trolls and flamers, and the conflicts that are caused by the trolls and flamers simmer longer before they are addressed. To the extent that the ArbCom's decisions have been insufficiently precise, it is primarily because they have a difficult tradeoff between taking too long to craft the right remedy and crafting any remedy in a timely manner. Preventing the ArbCom from taking any new cases would simply leave Wikipedia defenseless against trolls and flamers (since Jimbo does not have time to ban them, and not all of them can be dealt with cleanly by administrative blocks). Does Everyking have some plan for vigilante justice while the ArbCom is shut down or partially shut down?
I don't think that this thread is "performance art" or "improv comedy". If so, that would fall under WP:POINT. I think that the whole thread is simply misguided, and is disrupting WP without making a point. Robert McClenon 20:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
How does one request arbitration? There is a hefty edit war occurring on Kent Hovind between user:Jason Gastrich and user:WarriorScribe. Jason Gastrich seems to find pleasure in reverting any and all edits by WarriorScribe. Icj tlc 19:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi -- recently I noticed a request at WP:RFP to protect the talk page of User:Gimmiet (AKA Gabrielsimon), currently on a rather restrictive probation for his past actions. The user requesting protection said that Gimmiet has been blanking his talk page and refuses to consider simply archiving it, in the process removing many administrator notices, warnings and notices of violations/blocks that are directly related to his probation. (From what I gather upon reading his comments, he's feeling picked on and wants reminders about his poor behavior -- current and past -- nuked.) So it's been requested that his talk page be protected for a short time. My question is this: As I understand it, normally users are allowed to blank their talk pages if they so choose, including removing administrator notices. But should less latitude be extended to someone with Gabrielsimon's track record, given that context about his probation is also being removed? I'm unsure, so thought I'd ask here for opinions. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ mrp 17:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The enquiry was removed for a second time [5], since user:Raul654 considered it to be answered. It may be answered to some, but I don't agree. Assumptions based on common sense is hardly an answer. Common sense and assumptions do not extend the terms of office of the members of the arbitration committee, the determination by the Board of the Wikimedia Foundation does. It does not take much time for the Board to confirm this, so as to provide the procedurally foundations for members of the arbitration committee to continue to exercise their power. Otherwise we have no foundations to consider the decisions made by these members to be valid ones. — Insta ntnood 20:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
[via edit conflict]
Perhaps the ArbCom should simply avoid closing any cases during this time. That will give the new com the chance to overrule anything done during this interim period if it wants to, and will keep decisions made now from seeming illegitimate. Everyking 21:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Heh, you will change your tune fast enough if you ever do get elected and dig into some of these complicated things. Remember what ever you do must satisfy the rest of the arbitration committee, not just be fair according to your lights. Fred Bauder 18:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
When will the EffK case go into voting?
It is true that I, as one of the originating parties, have continued to post evidence, but that is only because the evidence page is still open and the editor in question is continuing to engage in behavior that other editors consider disruptive. Would it be possible for the ArbCom either to go into voting or at least consider a temporary injunction?
I realize that the ArbCom has a backlog to decide. I am simply requesting to have this case moved from the Evidence backlog into the Voting backlog. Thank you. Robert McClenon 22:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
The Committee may wish to be aware that a user signing himself user:shock_puppet has posted an allegation (on the Userboxes Talk page) that Kelly Matrin is the sock-puppet of someone called Willy on Wheels, whom user:shock_puppet speaks in negative terms. Either one or other (sp or KM) must, I suggest, be guilty of bad faith. If sp, then I suggest that this raises the spectre of the RfAr being used as a means of venting a grudge rather than as an open-handed dispute resolution process -- SockpuppetSamuelson 13:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I can feel the wikilove. Time for a cold shower. -- Dschor 07:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
These two cases already have more than enough supporting votes for closure, so can someone officially close them, hopefully before the ArbCom election starts?
History and diff links are insufficient, the full text of all cases should be in a standard archive so they can be indexed and searched by a search engine such as google (or history is made to appear non dynamic, and hence indexable). zen master T 18:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
It's just very surprising this page, unlike most every other page on wikipedia, isn't properly archived. zen master T 02:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I have a great idea - if Zen-master (or anyone else) thinks that this page should have a complete archive, they are fully welcome to compile and maintain such a list. I, for one, have more than enough to do here without wasting my time on such a useless endevour. But, oh wait, it's a lot easier to complain that others (the arbcom) aren't doing it than it is to compile such a list oneself. Raul654 04:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Zen-Master says that he would rather not focus on the two or three options as to what to do now, but is "investigating the vast possibilities and plausibility of reasons and explanations for why one of the most important pages on Wikipedia is not already being sufficiently archived, if for nothing else to ensure that it doesn't happen again in the future on other important pages". As Zen-Master comments, there are a vast number of possible reasons. Is he conducting an independent investigation that will produce a report, or is he asking for someone else to conduct an investigation that will produce a report? If it is the former, then I would ask whether he has any specific questions for other editors to respond to. The latter is just another form of complaining.
Article talk pages are for discussion of articles, and so should be product-focused. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussion of Wikipedia, and so can be process-focused as well as product-focused. My question is whether Zen-Master is suggesting any improvements in Wikipedia processes, or whether he just wants to complain about flawed processes and "vast dereliction" by volunteers. To answer the question that he asked me on the talk page of Woohookitty, I would submit that endless complaining without constructive suggestions is disruptive. Robert McClenon 20:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I realize do to the holiday's last month the arbitration committee didn't have a lot of time to vote in and close cases. It is now Janurary and I'm wondering what's happening. The case that I have been involved in has come to a dead standstill with four votes. As for being patient, it's been two months since the case was open. Maybe it's time to close some of these cases so the backlog doesn't get worse. Davidpdx 03:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Speaking of speed, it seems that opening cases have also proceeded rather slowly. Six out of Seven "Active" arbitrators have made edits at in the last two days. Yet, there are no more than 3 votes on the opening of any case. Another case has been lying there for over 15 days, and there are only two votes on it. How is this possible?
Which is why when I see a "recusal" vote, it simply kills me because a) Fred Bauder is the most active arbitrator and b)its probably going to take twice as long to be accepted or rejected. CJK 15:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
True. It seems that the whole process is inefficient, with not enough arbitrators and not enough time they are willing to contribute. CJK 20:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
What is this, WikiCourt? Captain Jackson 16:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
A couple weeks back, I spent some time lightly refactoring a few RFARs. In general, I reformatted some things to make it easier to read (like adding bullet points), hunted down diffs when the parties didn't do it themselves, and deleted pointless threaded arguments between the parties (but left discussion where someone was asking for clarification). No one complained, but I haven't done it much since. Before I do anything else, I'm interested in what current (and maybe future) arbitrators think about this:
Orinigally, I started doing it just because I like to read RFARs so I can know what is going on with the Wiki, but some of the writing was making my eyes bleed; and I thought it could do the Arbs a favor considering how busy they already are. I recognize some people may have significant reservations about a "random Joe" like myself editing a page this sensitive though, so I'd like to get some input. -- causa sui talk 03:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
causa sui makes an observation with which I agree: "some of the writing was making my eyes bleed". That is, most of the RfArs filed in the past two months have been horrendously written. I would like to commend Schmucky the Cat for actually filing an RfAr that shows reasoning rather than anger. My own suggestion would be that no one should refactor RfArs except for a party or the party's advocate, and that I agree with Fred Bauder that that is what advocates should be doing. I would suggest that the arbitrators should frequently postpone voting on whether to accept an RfAr until it is refactored by its parties. I would strongly urge NOT removing personal attacks. The personal attacks in an RfAr are evidence of a pattern of personal attacks. Robert McClenon 15:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC) Also, threaded arguments between parties in an RfAr or RfC are "coloring outside the lines". Dispute resolution is used when other, less structured forms of discourse have failed. "Coloring outside the lines" should be viewed as bad faith pleading. Robert McClenon 15:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC) Those opinions are worth what you paid for them. Robert McClenon 15:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Ask and ye shall recieve. I've done the write up here - Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Clerk's office and let the rest of the committee know. It's been getting generally positive comments, so it should be off the ground soon enough. Raul654 18:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Why hasn't anything been done in this case? Why does it continue to remain in the "evidence" phase? It is by far the oldest case still on the docket, and yet it remains in the "evidence" phase, even though plenty of evidence has been given. EffK is continuing to cause active harm to wikipedia, and the arbcom has yet to do anything, in spite of accepting the case nearly two months ago. john k 19:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The evidence entered by Musical Linguist documents the active harm that is continuing in the past few days. Could the arbitrators please consider the request for a preliminary injunction (in the workshop)? Robert McClenon 13:36, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Something is peculiar about the History of the Evidence in this case. Could one of the arbitrators please request a developer check? The diffs appear to show that Fred Bauder posted a link to the evidence in the section of evidence presented by EffK. On the one hand, I don't think that an arbitrator should be posting evidence in a case that he will judge. On the other hand, I don't think that an arbitrator is posting evidence in this case. If Fred Bauder is posting evidence, then he is becoming an advocate, and should recuse. However, I think it is more likely that EffK posted the diff, and that the Wiki log is wrong. (The edit summary appears to have been written by EffK, not by Fred Bauder.) Robert McClenon 20:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The assistance that I am requesting from the ArbCom is that they take the case from evidence into voting so that they can judge the case. As Mindspillage has said, there is already enough evidence. As long as the evidence record stays open, it will just get more of the same. Robert McClenon 16:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Fred Bauder wrote: We may post evidence in any case we chose to anyway. Looking for evidence you find evidence of all sorts. I assume that he means that the arbitrators may conduct their own investigation, like a court under civil law, or a grand jury, or certain administrative tribunals. That is reasonable. However, in that case, I assume that the arbitrators would mark the evidence as being entered by the arbitrators. Robert McClenon 20:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following policy change:
Questions, comments, and suggestions are appreciated.
Regards, Carl Hewitt 09:08 22 January 2006
The Arbitration Committee is discussing doing something along this line. We are getting some requests that are just not expressed well enough to permit determination of what the dispute is without extensive independent research. One proposal is to require someone bringing a case to "hire" a members advocate. And require the members advocate to present the case in an adequate way. If a user presents a request that just doesn't make sense it does seem rather doubtful that they are doing very good work editing anyway. Fred Bauder 16:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Do you need the formalism? Couldn't one of you just post in the accept/decline/recuse/unsure section (Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)) something like 'we're not sure what this is trying to say' and if no one pops in to explain it/clarify it/act as an advocate, then just vote decline with reason (unable to comprehend issue) or whatever... Just a suggestion. ++ Lar: t/ c 21:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
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If a registered user (let's say, an admin) casts inappropriate votes (i.e., BS reasoning) on multiple RFAdminship's, can he be brought before RFArb? Note that he hasn't defended these votes, and when one of the nominees in question (not me) posted a question on his user page, it went unanswered. Could I bring him before the committee? (The user in question: User:freestylefrappe; one of the RFA's: Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Lifeisunfair) Matt Yeager 09:29, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a message to the ArbCom team.
I have been advised that User:Poetlister was indefinitely banned because of being a suspected sock puppet of User:RachelBrown, which apparently was done because of a ruling by the Arbitration Committee. I asked to be directed to where this has happened, and no answer was given (in 6 hours). I have searched your archives and cannot find the existence of an arbitration against Poetlister, nor can I find any administrative notes regarding the lead up to this ban. Please can you direct me towards where this has happened.
The claim is that Poetlister and RachelBrown both voted in the same manner on up to 5 AFDs, and that this may have influenced closing admins. However, AFD is not a vote, so I do not see how this can be a bannable offence, even if they were the same person. If they were, they would be guilty of sock puppetry, which is bad, but surely not something which can be punished by an indefinite ban.
Secondly, RachelBrown last used Wikipedia on 10 December 2005, the last major contribution being 3 December 2005, yet Poetlister was banned on 22 December 2005, fully 2 weeks after RachelBrown last edited. As such, a claim of sock puppetry seems to be theoretically impossible, unless it is a historical case, as RachelBrown has not even edited anything for 2 weeks (3 weeks since any major edits). Thus, if there were any evidence of sock puppetry, it could only have happened prior to this.
Thirdly, RachelBrown, Poetlister and a 3rd user had lodged complaints with regards to the actions of Lulu of the Lotus Eaters, with support from SlimVirgin with regards to their editing of List of Jewish jurists, specifically that Lulu had violated 3RR, had spuriously added tags, had wiped useful content, had wrongly ignored evidence of claims and claimed WP:V violations on cited sources, and removed lists. At one point, Lulu deleted names from the list of people who were "Judge of the Supreme Court of Israel" claiming that there was no evidence that they were Jewish. Lulu also deleted names of people who were listed in the "Jewish Year Book", stating that if its not on the internet its not evidence, in spite of quotes and ISBN numbers given. Generally, Lulu failed to adhere to WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE and may have engaged in WP:No personal attacks against these users.
This case was at the stage of mediation, and Lulu refused mediation, meaning that it would then go forward to a Request for Comment, and may have ended up in the Arbitration Committee. In effect, it was already at the RfC stage, although this had not been formalised.
The blocking could be seen as a deliberate disruption of due process, and it needs to be explained in full, especially because of the nature of the behaviour of Lulu et al in relation to this. I note an existing ArbCom surrounding User:SlimVirgin, and this could potentially be added to that in some way. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 05:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Please note that this was a request for clarification directed to Arbitration Committee members, not to Lulu, who is not an arbitration member and hence is not someone whose input is welcome.
I have never met Poetlister or had any contact with any of the persons involved, and, as has been stated and proven elsewhere, my involvement was that I received an e-mail from Poetlister asking for me to help her, as I had helped out many other newbies in distress over similar incidents.
Lulu has gone to many places making false claims about me, which I believe has contributed to this problem. I ask that her comments here be disregarded as this is purely a request for clarification towards ArbCom members, rather than being an invitation to personal attacks from Lulu. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 19:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with any pending arbitration. From the block log:
Mindspillage blocked Poetlister for vote stacking, using technical evidence provided by checkuser. [1] Kelly Martin rechecked hte evidence and came to thes same conclusion [2] There's nothing to see here, move along. Raul654 20:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
At this point, I have little expectation that Jimbo will ever actually hear my appeal, although he has said he would. It's been well over a month now. I think something else needs to be considered. What if we had a single person hear the appeal, but not Jimbo, acting in Jimbo's place? Or a small committee of three, something of that sort? If it is clear Jimbo is, for practical purposes, no longer fulfilling his role in this regard, we need to develop an alternative process. Everyking 06:47, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Given that (1) you were blocked a few days ago for sniping at snowspinner, (2) had to sign a special agreement to be unblocked just a couple days ago, and then (3) within an hour or so after it expired you immediately went back to sniping at Snowspinner - it is clear and demonstrable that you have no intention of leaving snowspinner alone if we suspend the decision. Raul654 18:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Whats the big deal about Snowspinner? Can't they just have it out and be done w it? Sam Spade 19:10, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
IMO their both good guys, and should be able to resolve their differences. My guess is that (if done properly) would work better than an artificial armistace. My advice is for them to try chatting on another medium. I have found I get on much better w some people via a different medium (email, IM, etc...). Of course they'd have to both be willing, and etc... Sam Spade 19:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Hmm... perhaps you have too much in common? Sam Spade 19:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
It's not just snowspinner - prior to the third arbitration decision, EK had basically taken to sniping at (among other things) every arbcom decision as well, without researching the facts Raul654 19:42, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I think we could all resolve to be more cautious and less controversial. I do. Sam Spade 21:49, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not seeing any real responses to the actual proposal I made. Everyking 22:04, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Raul, your 11th law is stupid - people who are not harmed don't complain. For that reason, the pool of complainers will contain only those harmed - rightly or wrongly. For your rule to be valid, you need to add "where's there's smoke, there's fire" and the 80/20 rule. Combine those and we find that 20% of the time, complainers tend to be right. This is my observation and it's why I now edit exclusively as an anon-ip. Too many petty snipers around who heave around charges and acccusations. As anon-ip, I can change my persona like others change their socks. On the other hand, EK is complaining because his EK persona is important to him. My advice to EK is: change your IP and re-register with a new name. Edit under new name in parallel with the EK account and only drop EK if/when Arb-bullies cut the crap. If they never do, EK has new persona to move to. BTW: Raul needs a 12th rule: The more "decisions" rendered and "bannings" which occur, the greater the number of socks, anon-ips and re-joiners. 70.84.56.175 08:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I gotta say something since this is the same person who faulted me just a few days ago for doing the exact same thing he's doing now. [4]
My belief here (considering I don't see how what he did there didn't violate WP:POINT for disruptiveness, thus making it impossible to WP:AGF in this case), is that Tony's trying to strawman himself, thus trying to gain pity for himself after a series of incidents( see this as well, as no doubt other things) of what he and Kelly Martin termed as a "entering an incandescent rage", or that this is some desperate plea for help.
Tony is like many other prolific editors: he often creates problems whenever it comes to a page where there's something for something, but he's one of our finest elsewhere. And much like others afflicted with this ailment, which seems corrolary to Luigi 30's Law, he is quickly burning out, perhaps to the point where he will leave forever.
Ultimately, the issue here isn't Tony. Tony's just a symptom of a much larger problem that most people have ignored and some have tried to fix until they gave up to the futility of their circumstances. That problem is simple: Our policy system no longer works.
Tony's issue here with the Catholic Alliance is a common one, most policies/guidelines contradict other polices and guidelines, which in itself is ultimately contradicted by WP:IAR, a rule that is becoming more and more commonly used as these contradictions become endemic, despite people such as Tony who decry IAR while using it in cases like these recent mfd (Perhaps it should be "Ignore Some Rules", but you get my drift.)
This needs to be discussed in greater detail, but for now, Tony needs to be far away from and of the something for something pages. Either from a mandatory wikivacation or from refocusing his efforts on another project or a whole bunch of barnstars cheering him up so he doesn't feel like he's alone trying to "fix" things or what have you, I know first hand that it sucks feeling at the end of your wick like you have to save Wikipedia singlehanded, i've felt like this for the past few months.
And remember, the longer we have to wait for the reform of creation/refinement/annulment/enforcement regarding policies and guidelines, the more times you'll see moments like this. karmafist 08:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I have no intention of going looking for trouble. If left alone, I will leave alone. Phil Sandifer 17:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Will this new ruling affect my ability to participate in dispute resolution with Snowspinner? At present I am planning on an Arb case against him. Everyking 05:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
User:Benjamin Gatti has posted several "comments on above" on his Arbcom evidence page. I thought that comments like that weren't allowed on the evidence pages? As proof that it's ok, Ben points to the Deeceevoice case, where it wasn't questioned. Could you clarify this for me? I always thought that the "evidence anaysis" part of the Workshop was for this purpose and that the evidence page was supposed to just have...well...evidence. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 06:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Right from the evidence page:
"If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user."
Pretty clear I'd say. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 07:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I have an idea for a compromise about the term expiration question: how about the ArbCom doesn't accept any new cases until Feb., but it can continue working on already accepted cases during January? Everyking 06:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Not accepting cases would result in a big backlog. A few of the refused cases would involve serious disruption. (Although opinions may differ regarding our effectiveness.) Fred Bauder 15:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I can only conclude that this entire thread has been, from its beginning, some form of performance art or improv comedy. Raul654 20:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Everyking's statement that the current ArbCom has not been doing a very effective job, but both of Everyking's suggestions miss the whole point and would make things worse. The problem with the current ArbCom is an institutional one rather than a pesonal one. It is not that it consists of the wrong arbitrators, which seems to be what Everyking is saying. It is that it has more cases than it can handle in a timely manner under the current procedures. As a result, it takes too long to ban trolls and flamers, and the conflicts that are caused by the trolls and flamers simmer longer before they are addressed. To the extent that the ArbCom's decisions have been insufficiently precise, it is primarily because they have a difficult tradeoff between taking too long to craft the right remedy and crafting any remedy in a timely manner. Preventing the ArbCom from taking any new cases would simply leave Wikipedia defenseless against trolls and flamers (since Jimbo does not have time to ban them, and not all of them can be dealt with cleanly by administrative blocks). Does Everyking have some plan for vigilante justice while the ArbCom is shut down or partially shut down?
I don't think that this thread is "performance art" or "improv comedy". If so, that would fall under WP:POINT. I think that the whole thread is simply misguided, and is disrupting WP without making a point. Robert McClenon 20:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
How does one request arbitration? There is a hefty edit war occurring on Kent Hovind between user:Jason Gastrich and user:WarriorScribe. Jason Gastrich seems to find pleasure in reverting any and all edits by WarriorScribe. Icj tlc 19:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi -- recently I noticed a request at WP:RFP to protect the talk page of User:Gimmiet (AKA Gabrielsimon), currently on a rather restrictive probation for his past actions. The user requesting protection said that Gimmiet has been blanking his talk page and refuses to consider simply archiving it, in the process removing many administrator notices, warnings and notices of violations/blocks that are directly related to his probation. (From what I gather upon reading his comments, he's feeling picked on and wants reminders about his poor behavior -- current and past -- nuked.) So it's been requested that his talk page be protected for a short time. My question is this: As I understand it, normally users are allowed to blank their talk pages if they so choose, including removing administrator notices. But should less latitude be extended to someone with Gabrielsimon's track record, given that context about his probation is also being removed? I'm unsure, so thought I'd ask here for opinions. · Katefan0 (scribble)/ mrp 17:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The enquiry was removed for a second time [5], since user:Raul654 considered it to be answered. It may be answered to some, but I don't agree. Assumptions based on common sense is hardly an answer. Common sense and assumptions do not extend the terms of office of the members of the arbitration committee, the determination by the Board of the Wikimedia Foundation does. It does not take much time for the Board to confirm this, so as to provide the procedurally foundations for members of the arbitration committee to continue to exercise their power. Otherwise we have no foundations to consider the decisions made by these members to be valid ones. — Insta ntnood 20:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
[via edit conflict]
Perhaps the ArbCom should simply avoid closing any cases during this time. That will give the new com the chance to overrule anything done during this interim period if it wants to, and will keep decisions made now from seeming illegitimate. Everyking 21:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Heh, you will change your tune fast enough if you ever do get elected and dig into some of these complicated things. Remember what ever you do must satisfy the rest of the arbitration committee, not just be fair according to your lights. Fred Bauder 18:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
When will the EffK case go into voting?
It is true that I, as one of the originating parties, have continued to post evidence, but that is only because the evidence page is still open and the editor in question is continuing to engage in behavior that other editors consider disruptive. Would it be possible for the ArbCom either to go into voting or at least consider a temporary injunction?
I realize that the ArbCom has a backlog to decide. I am simply requesting to have this case moved from the Evidence backlog into the Voting backlog. Thank you. Robert McClenon 22:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
The Committee may wish to be aware that a user signing himself user:shock_puppet has posted an allegation (on the Userboxes Talk page) that Kelly Matrin is the sock-puppet of someone called Willy on Wheels, whom user:shock_puppet speaks in negative terms. Either one or other (sp or KM) must, I suggest, be guilty of bad faith. If sp, then I suggest that this raises the spectre of the RfAr being used as a means of venting a grudge rather than as an open-handed dispute resolution process -- SockpuppetSamuelson 13:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I can feel the wikilove. Time for a cold shower. -- Dschor 07:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
These two cases already have more than enough supporting votes for closure, so can someone officially close them, hopefully before the ArbCom election starts?
History and diff links are insufficient, the full text of all cases should be in a standard archive so they can be indexed and searched by a search engine such as google (or history is made to appear non dynamic, and hence indexable). zen master T 18:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
It's just very surprising this page, unlike most every other page on wikipedia, isn't properly archived. zen master T 02:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I have a great idea - if Zen-master (or anyone else) thinks that this page should have a complete archive, they are fully welcome to compile and maintain such a list. I, for one, have more than enough to do here without wasting my time on such a useless endevour. But, oh wait, it's a lot easier to complain that others (the arbcom) aren't doing it than it is to compile such a list oneself. Raul654 04:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Zen-Master says that he would rather not focus on the two or three options as to what to do now, but is "investigating the vast possibilities and plausibility of reasons and explanations for why one of the most important pages on Wikipedia is not already being sufficiently archived, if for nothing else to ensure that it doesn't happen again in the future on other important pages". As Zen-Master comments, there are a vast number of possible reasons. Is he conducting an independent investigation that will produce a report, or is he asking for someone else to conduct an investigation that will produce a report? If it is the former, then I would ask whether he has any specific questions for other editors to respond to. The latter is just another form of complaining.
Article talk pages are for discussion of articles, and so should be product-focused. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussion of Wikipedia, and so can be process-focused as well as product-focused. My question is whether Zen-Master is suggesting any improvements in Wikipedia processes, or whether he just wants to complain about flawed processes and "vast dereliction" by volunteers. To answer the question that he asked me on the talk page of Woohookitty, I would submit that endless complaining without constructive suggestions is disruptive. Robert McClenon 20:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I realize do to the holiday's last month the arbitration committee didn't have a lot of time to vote in and close cases. It is now Janurary and I'm wondering what's happening. The case that I have been involved in has come to a dead standstill with four votes. As for being patient, it's been two months since the case was open. Maybe it's time to close some of these cases so the backlog doesn't get worse. Davidpdx 03:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Speaking of speed, it seems that opening cases have also proceeded rather slowly. Six out of Seven "Active" arbitrators have made edits at in the last two days. Yet, there are no more than 3 votes on the opening of any case. Another case has been lying there for over 15 days, and there are only two votes on it. How is this possible?
Which is why when I see a "recusal" vote, it simply kills me because a) Fred Bauder is the most active arbitrator and b)its probably going to take twice as long to be accepted or rejected. CJK 15:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
True. It seems that the whole process is inefficient, with not enough arbitrators and not enough time they are willing to contribute. CJK 20:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
What is this, WikiCourt? Captain Jackson 16:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
A couple weeks back, I spent some time lightly refactoring a few RFARs. In general, I reformatted some things to make it easier to read (like adding bullet points), hunted down diffs when the parties didn't do it themselves, and deleted pointless threaded arguments between the parties (but left discussion where someone was asking for clarification). No one complained, but I haven't done it much since. Before I do anything else, I'm interested in what current (and maybe future) arbitrators think about this:
Orinigally, I started doing it just because I like to read RFARs so I can know what is going on with the Wiki, but some of the writing was making my eyes bleed; and I thought it could do the Arbs a favor considering how busy they already are. I recognize some people may have significant reservations about a "random Joe" like myself editing a page this sensitive though, so I'd like to get some input. -- causa sui talk 03:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
causa sui makes an observation with which I agree: "some of the writing was making my eyes bleed". That is, most of the RfArs filed in the past two months have been horrendously written. I would like to commend Schmucky the Cat for actually filing an RfAr that shows reasoning rather than anger. My own suggestion would be that no one should refactor RfArs except for a party or the party's advocate, and that I agree with Fred Bauder that that is what advocates should be doing. I would suggest that the arbitrators should frequently postpone voting on whether to accept an RfAr until it is refactored by its parties. I would strongly urge NOT removing personal attacks. The personal attacks in an RfAr are evidence of a pattern of personal attacks. Robert McClenon 15:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC) Also, threaded arguments between parties in an RfAr or RfC are "coloring outside the lines". Dispute resolution is used when other, less structured forms of discourse have failed. "Coloring outside the lines" should be viewed as bad faith pleading. Robert McClenon 15:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC) Those opinions are worth what you paid for them. Robert McClenon 15:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Ask and ye shall recieve. I've done the write up here - Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Clerk's office and let the rest of the committee know. It's been getting generally positive comments, so it should be off the ground soon enough. Raul654 18:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Why hasn't anything been done in this case? Why does it continue to remain in the "evidence" phase? It is by far the oldest case still on the docket, and yet it remains in the "evidence" phase, even though plenty of evidence has been given. EffK is continuing to cause active harm to wikipedia, and the arbcom has yet to do anything, in spite of accepting the case nearly two months ago. john k 19:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The evidence entered by Musical Linguist documents the active harm that is continuing in the past few days. Could the arbitrators please consider the request for a preliminary injunction (in the workshop)? Robert McClenon 13:36, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Something is peculiar about the History of the Evidence in this case. Could one of the arbitrators please request a developer check? The diffs appear to show that Fred Bauder posted a link to the evidence in the section of evidence presented by EffK. On the one hand, I don't think that an arbitrator should be posting evidence in a case that he will judge. On the other hand, I don't think that an arbitrator is posting evidence in this case. If Fred Bauder is posting evidence, then he is becoming an advocate, and should recuse. However, I think it is more likely that EffK posted the diff, and that the Wiki log is wrong. (The edit summary appears to have been written by EffK, not by Fred Bauder.) Robert McClenon 20:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The assistance that I am requesting from the ArbCom is that they take the case from evidence into voting so that they can judge the case. As Mindspillage has said, there is already enough evidence. As long as the evidence record stays open, it will just get more of the same. Robert McClenon 16:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Fred Bauder wrote: We may post evidence in any case we chose to anyway. Looking for evidence you find evidence of all sorts. I assume that he means that the arbitrators may conduct their own investigation, like a court under civil law, or a grand jury, or certain administrative tribunals. That is reasonable. However, in that case, I assume that the arbitrators would mark the evidence as being entered by the arbitrators. Robert McClenon 20:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following policy change:
Questions, comments, and suggestions are appreciated.
Regards, Carl Hewitt 09:08 22 January 2006
The Arbitration Committee is discussing doing something along this line. We are getting some requests that are just not expressed well enough to permit determination of what the dispute is without extensive independent research. One proposal is to require someone bringing a case to "hire" a members advocate. And require the members advocate to present the case in an adequate way. If a user presents a request that just doesn't make sense it does seem rather doubtful that they are doing very good work editing anyway. Fred Bauder 16:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Do you need the formalism? Couldn't one of you just post in the accept/decline/recuse/unsure section (Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/0/0/0)) something like 'we're not sure what this is trying to say' and if no one pops in to explain it/clarify it/act as an advocate, then just vote decline with reason (unable to comprehend issue) or whatever... Just a suggestion. ++ Lar: t/ c 21:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)