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Archive 40 | ← | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 | Archive 50 |
User:Bowei Huang is back with another question about the one true religion on the hum desk. After [1] above, is there a step two? Julia Rossi ( talk) 08:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Our current approach to questions that appear to ask for legal/medical/(insert licensed profession here) advice is to delete the question and all of its answers. I don't think this is a very good one—it leads to all sorts of disagreements about what is or is not a "legal advice" question, it alienates potential question-askers (who are sometimes asking perfectly good questions), it often ends up clogging up the question/answer section with all sorts of RD-specific debates (does this violate policy, etc.), and in the end I don't think it's helpful to anyone or good for the working environment of the Ref Desk. I also think it is one of these policies that will inevitably err on the side of being too strict and conservative, because the supposed arguments against the "legal advice" questions (OMG WIKIPEDIA WILL GET SUED!!) provoke more fear than the opposite position (OMG PEOPLE WILL NOT GET ANSWERS AND WE'LL END UP HATING EACH OTHER AND BICKERING!!), even though the latter case is certainly more likely than the former case (and does more harm over the long-term of the Ref Desk), in my opinion.
So here's a suggestion: Let's not nix the questions. Let's nix the answers.
Let's say you see a question that says something simple like, "My eye hurts, what should I do?" The answer should not be "We can't answer questions like that." The answer is, "Go see a doctor," or "There are many reasons it could be hurting, ranging from the trivial to the very serious. It's important that you see a professional, who will be able to examine it and give an informed answer, unlike anyone on the internet." Answers which suggest ad hoc medical solutions should be deleted and the person who suggested them should be told not to offer them up. Perhaps a little warning could be put on the question: "This question appears to solicit medical advice; any answers which give medical advice will be deleted."
What about "legal advice"? If we get a question like, "A cop searched my car without a warrant, is that legal?" the answers could be mixed—good answers would point out that (in the US), there are certain ways in which a police officer can, in fact, search a car without a warrant (e.g. if they are given probable cause). That is not a "legal advice" answer. A bad answer would say, "You should claim X and Y and Z on the stand, and sue his ass" or whatever. Those should be deleted. An even better good answer would point out, "The best person to talk about the legality of this issue in your specific case is a lawyer, because only someone well-trained in criminal justice is going to be able to make determinations about the specifics in this instance, e.g. whether or not a judge and jury would find this legal or not."
This answer-centric approach puts the burden on us, the answerers, not the questioners. I think it would be an easier system to enforce and lead to a lot less ill-will. I also think it would be more useful, on the whole—it is better to say "I'm sorry, no one on here is going to be able to answer that, please talk to a professional" than it is to delete a question entirely.
And I think it would avoid the situations in which someone ignorant of a given subject area declares something to be "legal/medical advice"—in the sense that it would endanger Wikipedia to give an answer—when anyone with a little more knowledge could sort it out. "Are names from a 100 year old census copyrightable in the US?" (to use one example currently on the Misc desk) is as non-legal-advice a question for someone even moderately versed in copyright law to answer as "Do my lungs have something to do with getting oxygen into my blood supply?" would be a non-medical advice question to someone who knew basic anatomy.
What do you think? Sorry to go on and on. But I think this is something we should think over. I think some people have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to deleting questions of this sort, and I think it doesn't do a lot of good. I think having a policy like the one I outline above would make this a lot easier to enforce and also avoid more situations of over-eagerness to classify things as "medical" and "legal" advice. -- Captain Ref Desk ( talk) 15:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
(Remove indent) How about this:
I have spent my life working outdoors in the sunshine. Now I've discovered a black spot on my skin. What could it be?
Mellow Gnome
23:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
The trick is trying to find a solution that doesn't give the "misguided souls" any reason to provide harmful advice and doesn't alienate the OP so that he/she may come back in the future with a better question instead of turning into a vengeful vandal/troll. Zain Ebrahim ( talk) 15:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
It's ridiculous that we're going to deny answering any question at all regarding human physiology and/or the legal system because we're going to get "sued" for saying "maybe you brushed against poison ivy". The day a judge and jury holds Wikipedia liable for giving medical advice is the day I pack my axe and move to Europe. Ziggy Saw dust 14:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
In the boilerplate section at the top of each Desk, where it says
, what are those three wikilinks for? — Steve Summit ( talk) 11:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
On the index page type thing there are lists of what goes where underneath the subject title. Why is the order they are in... the order they are in? At the moment it seems sort of random, and for instance on the Entertainment list TV shows are after Video games even though video game questions are fairly infrequent on that desk.
Surely they should be in order of "importance" (although I know this will vary from person to person) or at least Alphabetial order?
The same could be said about the actual topics. I am fairly sure the Science desk gets more questions per day that computer questions for instance. I'd suggest something like Science, Maths, Language, Humanities on the top row (these are topics that seem fairly unique to the RD, I don't know many forums or anything that cover these topics) then Computing, Entertinment, Misc and Archives on the second row (because the first two have many other places people can go to, and Misc doesn't really fit anywhere, and Archives should obviously be last). What do you think?
TheGreatZorko ( talk) 09:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
If at all possible, I suggest wiki-linking one's first answer to the article on the main topic, unless the asker or someone else have already done so. Occasionally, we even get threads of extensive answers by multiple editors with links to all sorts of relevant articles, except for the main topic. (just one recent example, where I actually wanted to read the article: "The Crimes of Kaiser Bill"). Even if the article neither addresses the question nor contains any relevant information, links are useful to readers, and also to people who search the archives for old questions by hitting the "What links here function" on keyword articles.
I guess we sometimes also assume the key article has already been linked above, but this is often not the case. I would fix it on sight, but it is considered bad etiquette to weave links into other people's posts, be they querents or volunteers. Which is why I'm pointing it out here. A minor request, for those who care. Thank you. --- Sluzzelin talk 11:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Something is wrong in the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/May 2008 for the May 2nd section number 10. I don't know how to fix it. Could someone take a look? xxx User:Hyper Girl 09:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems that all the desks did not have May 11 added after midnight. All the questions are being entered under May 10, I'm not sure how to fix this. SunshineStateOfMind ( talk) 19:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Why, that was certainly amusing. But, say, what just happened on this ref desk? How was this acheived? Scaller ( talk) 22:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Actually, I found I could highlight the text, and look at the hidden text that way. The vandalism seems to be dealt with there, and I reckon this should yield me answers.
Scaller (
talk)
22:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I've removed a trolling Avril Lavigne question twice - first here, note the OP was an IP. This was then reposted to Language by "Doctor Dangerous" who I am having AGF trouble with to begin with, my removal here. Note also this section from the good doctor. -- LarryMac | Talk 17:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
User Hot JJ has been banned, and any additional sock-puppets of this user will also be banned. Please report suspected return appearances to the Administrator's noticeboard.
Atlant ( talk) 15:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Q Chris removed a paragraph I had written in the junk food discussion on WP:RD/M. I understand his motivation, but I feel that if User:FisherQueen's offensive (IMO) comment to the anon who began the thread is permitted, so should my response to FisherQueen. Ideally, the conversation never should have started, as the RD is supposed to be immune to debates. Should we just delete the whole section? -- Mwalcoff ( talk) 11:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyone who's bored might derive some amusement from trying to figure out this question on my talk page. I know what ACSR is -- Atlant and I wrote the page after an RD discussion a while back -- but I can't imagine what the referred-to code words and animal names might be. — Steve Summit ( talk) 01:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
<moved to miscellaneous desk here [2]>
I posted a serious question on Humanities about the English Reformation, using an expression taken from a poem by Brendan Behan, which I assumed people here would have some knowledge of. I was wrong. It was removed by an individual who goes by the name of DigitalC. Is this your new policy, shoot first and ask questions later? By what right had this person to remove my questioon in such a rude and high handed manner? Is he your policeman? I think this is ATROCIOUS conduct, action taken in such an arbitrary way without any kind of consensus. I am sorry to go on but I am really ANGRY. Tim O'Neil ( talk) 07:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
PS this person hs now sent me a note about assuming good faith, or something like that. Well, what about this assumption with regard to me? Tim O'Neil ( talk) 07:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
PPS I see from the edit history of the humanities desk that he described my question as 'vandalism' prior to removal. What price now assumptions of good faith an civility? This DigitalC person has clearly taken it upon himself to play fast and loose with your protocols. Tim O'Neil ( talk) 07:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
There were a fair number of good questions among the recent spate of questions from the Avril/Summer troll (under his/her various aliases). Most of these questions were copied verbatim from Scientific American and other Q&A sites but there were others (e.g. "Do worms have brains?"). Either he/she believes that posting good faith questions might reduce his/her chances of being blocked (for the rest of the questions) or he/she doesn't agree with the answers given on those sites. If we AGF then we assume the latter, in which case he/she should inform us that there is an answer and he/she just wants a second opinion.
I responded quite harshly to these questions (in particular the worms one to which I apologised) and I realise now that I was wrong to do so. Here's a removal of many of good questions. My question is: is it cool to remove these questions? Zain Ebrahim ( talk) 14:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I just removed this question from the Science desk, as it provides a set of symptoms (fatigue, dizziness) and seeks an explanation.
The original author restored the question, and I've now removed it for a second time. I think that this is a clear-cut request for medical advice of the sort that we don't – and can't – offer, but I welcome second opinions. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 01:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Here Algebraist 14:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Moved to language desk. Gwinva ( talk) 23:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Why am I seeing to images of Avril Lavigne overlaying the Entertainment desk. It is not an edit to the page. It looks like a background image was changed - and it is overlaying the questions but not the sidebar or top links sections. Rmhermen ( talk) 18:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Given the very large number of probably complicated templates, and the unlikelyhood that most of them should be changed by without discussion, shouldn't they be protected, or at least semi-protected? Nil Einne ( talk) 18:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Seems the recent spate of St. John the apostle questions are from the same anon user who gave us the Tim Cahill q's. Just a note :-) Fribbler ( talk) 10:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I am officially announcing that I intend to give up trolling and vandalism on the Reference Desk. I am the so called "Avril Troll" (by the way I really dislike that name, I'd prefer the "Avril Admirer" or something) but I've grown bored, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to think up new ways to disrupt the Reference Desk. I've had fun, and I thank Wikipedia for indulging in my Avril fixation. I guess this is testimony to the amazing work of the Wikipedians who sought to stop my mayhem, and who knows, maybe one day I'll be the one fighting the vandals. Anyway, thank you all, and Goodbye. -- The Avril Troll —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Rightgoer ( talk • contribs)
Hello refdesk people. I'm the admin who fully protected the templates, blacklisted some Avril images, blocked many Tor nodes and sockpuppets, protected several user talk pages, filed a checkuser request, and spent several hours in the process of keeping this page and the help desk open to readers and editors alike, all due to the escalation of this trolling. I haven't really closely followed the full story of this troll, there are many things we tolerate on Wikipedia in good spirit, but template vandalism and blocking use of the entire helpdesk system is completely out of order by any standard. There is currently an unacceptable risk that it will happen again, and in my view this risk will remain for some time so I won't be readily undoing my actions. Any admin can reverse any of my actions but in my opinion they would be mad to rely on a statement by someone who says they've stopped because 'it is becoming increasingly difficult to think up new ways to disrupt the Reference Desk'. That is not a statement of repentance. I will happily undertake any edit requests myself - please leave a note on my talk page - or there is a well established system for making such requests with the {{ editprotected}} template. -- zzuuzz (talk) 21:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 | Archive 50 |
User:Bowei Huang is back with another question about the one true religion on the hum desk. After [1] above, is there a step two? Julia Rossi ( talk) 08:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Our current approach to questions that appear to ask for legal/medical/(insert licensed profession here) advice is to delete the question and all of its answers. I don't think this is a very good one—it leads to all sorts of disagreements about what is or is not a "legal advice" question, it alienates potential question-askers (who are sometimes asking perfectly good questions), it often ends up clogging up the question/answer section with all sorts of RD-specific debates (does this violate policy, etc.), and in the end I don't think it's helpful to anyone or good for the working environment of the Ref Desk. I also think it is one of these policies that will inevitably err on the side of being too strict and conservative, because the supposed arguments against the "legal advice" questions (OMG WIKIPEDIA WILL GET SUED!!) provoke more fear than the opposite position (OMG PEOPLE WILL NOT GET ANSWERS AND WE'LL END UP HATING EACH OTHER AND BICKERING!!), even though the latter case is certainly more likely than the former case (and does more harm over the long-term of the Ref Desk), in my opinion.
So here's a suggestion: Let's not nix the questions. Let's nix the answers.
Let's say you see a question that says something simple like, "My eye hurts, what should I do?" The answer should not be "We can't answer questions like that." The answer is, "Go see a doctor," or "There are many reasons it could be hurting, ranging from the trivial to the very serious. It's important that you see a professional, who will be able to examine it and give an informed answer, unlike anyone on the internet." Answers which suggest ad hoc medical solutions should be deleted and the person who suggested them should be told not to offer them up. Perhaps a little warning could be put on the question: "This question appears to solicit medical advice; any answers which give medical advice will be deleted."
What about "legal advice"? If we get a question like, "A cop searched my car without a warrant, is that legal?" the answers could be mixed—good answers would point out that (in the US), there are certain ways in which a police officer can, in fact, search a car without a warrant (e.g. if they are given probable cause). That is not a "legal advice" answer. A bad answer would say, "You should claim X and Y and Z on the stand, and sue his ass" or whatever. Those should be deleted. An even better good answer would point out, "The best person to talk about the legality of this issue in your specific case is a lawyer, because only someone well-trained in criminal justice is going to be able to make determinations about the specifics in this instance, e.g. whether or not a judge and jury would find this legal or not."
This answer-centric approach puts the burden on us, the answerers, not the questioners. I think it would be an easier system to enforce and lead to a lot less ill-will. I also think it would be more useful, on the whole—it is better to say "I'm sorry, no one on here is going to be able to answer that, please talk to a professional" than it is to delete a question entirely.
And I think it would avoid the situations in which someone ignorant of a given subject area declares something to be "legal/medical advice"—in the sense that it would endanger Wikipedia to give an answer—when anyone with a little more knowledge could sort it out. "Are names from a 100 year old census copyrightable in the US?" (to use one example currently on the Misc desk) is as non-legal-advice a question for someone even moderately versed in copyright law to answer as "Do my lungs have something to do with getting oxygen into my blood supply?" would be a non-medical advice question to someone who knew basic anatomy.
What do you think? Sorry to go on and on. But I think this is something we should think over. I think some people have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to deleting questions of this sort, and I think it doesn't do a lot of good. I think having a policy like the one I outline above would make this a lot easier to enforce and also avoid more situations of over-eagerness to classify things as "medical" and "legal" advice. -- Captain Ref Desk ( talk) 15:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
(Remove indent) How about this:
I have spent my life working outdoors in the sunshine. Now I've discovered a black spot on my skin. What could it be?
Mellow Gnome
23:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
The trick is trying to find a solution that doesn't give the "misguided souls" any reason to provide harmful advice and doesn't alienate the OP so that he/she may come back in the future with a better question instead of turning into a vengeful vandal/troll. Zain Ebrahim ( talk) 15:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
It's ridiculous that we're going to deny answering any question at all regarding human physiology and/or the legal system because we're going to get "sued" for saying "maybe you brushed against poison ivy". The day a judge and jury holds Wikipedia liable for giving medical advice is the day I pack my axe and move to Europe. Ziggy Saw dust 14:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
In the boilerplate section at the top of each Desk, where it says
, what are those three wikilinks for? — Steve Summit ( talk) 11:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
On the index page type thing there are lists of what goes where underneath the subject title. Why is the order they are in... the order they are in? At the moment it seems sort of random, and for instance on the Entertainment list TV shows are after Video games even though video game questions are fairly infrequent on that desk.
Surely they should be in order of "importance" (although I know this will vary from person to person) or at least Alphabetial order?
The same could be said about the actual topics. I am fairly sure the Science desk gets more questions per day that computer questions for instance. I'd suggest something like Science, Maths, Language, Humanities on the top row (these are topics that seem fairly unique to the RD, I don't know many forums or anything that cover these topics) then Computing, Entertinment, Misc and Archives on the second row (because the first two have many other places people can go to, and Misc doesn't really fit anywhere, and Archives should obviously be last). What do you think?
TheGreatZorko ( talk) 09:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
If at all possible, I suggest wiki-linking one's first answer to the article on the main topic, unless the asker or someone else have already done so. Occasionally, we even get threads of extensive answers by multiple editors with links to all sorts of relevant articles, except for the main topic. (just one recent example, where I actually wanted to read the article: "The Crimes of Kaiser Bill"). Even if the article neither addresses the question nor contains any relevant information, links are useful to readers, and also to people who search the archives for old questions by hitting the "What links here function" on keyword articles.
I guess we sometimes also assume the key article has already been linked above, but this is often not the case. I would fix it on sight, but it is considered bad etiquette to weave links into other people's posts, be they querents or volunteers. Which is why I'm pointing it out here. A minor request, for those who care. Thank you. --- Sluzzelin talk 11:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Something is wrong in the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/May 2008 for the May 2nd section number 10. I don't know how to fix it. Could someone take a look? xxx User:Hyper Girl 09:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems that all the desks did not have May 11 added after midnight. All the questions are being entered under May 10, I'm not sure how to fix this. SunshineStateOfMind ( talk) 19:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Why, that was certainly amusing. But, say, what just happened on this ref desk? How was this acheived? Scaller ( talk) 22:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Actually, I found I could highlight the text, and look at the hidden text that way. The vandalism seems to be dealt with there, and I reckon this should yield me answers.
Scaller (
talk)
22:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I've removed a trolling Avril Lavigne question twice - first here, note the OP was an IP. This was then reposted to Language by "Doctor Dangerous" who I am having AGF trouble with to begin with, my removal here. Note also this section from the good doctor. -- LarryMac | Talk 17:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
User Hot JJ has been banned, and any additional sock-puppets of this user will also be banned. Please report suspected return appearances to the Administrator's noticeboard.
Atlant ( talk) 15:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Q Chris removed a paragraph I had written in the junk food discussion on WP:RD/M. I understand his motivation, but I feel that if User:FisherQueen's offensive (IMO) comment to the anon who began the thread is permitted, so should my response to FisherQueen. Ideally, the conversation never should have started, as the RD is supposed to be immune to debates. Should we just delete the whole section? -- Mwalcoff ( talk) 11:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyone who's bored might derive some amusement from trying to figure out this question on my talk page. I know what ACSR is -- Atlant and I wrote the page after an RD discussion a while back -- but I can't imagine what the referred-to code words and animal names might be. — Steve Summit ( talk) 01:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
<moved to miscellaneous desk here [2]>
I posted a serious question on Humanities about the English Reformation, using an expression taken from a poem by Brendan Behan, which I assumed people here would have some knowledge of. I was wrong. It was removed by an individual who goes by the name of DigitalC. Is this your new policy, shoot first and ask questions later? By what right had this person to remove my questioon in such a rude and high handed manner? Is he your policeman? I think this is ATROCIOUS conduct, action taken in such an arbitrary way without any kind of consensus. I am sorry to go on but I am really ANGRY. Tim O'Neil ( talk) 07:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
PS this person hs now sent me a note about assuming good faith, or something like that. Well, what about this assumption with regard to me? Tim O'Neil ( talk) 07:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
PPS I see from the edit history of the humanities desk that he described my question as 'vandalism' prior to removal. What price now assumptions of good faith an civility? This DigitalC person has clearly taken it upon himself to play fast and loose with your protocols. Tim O'Neil ( talk) 07:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
There were a fair number of good questions among the recent spate of questions from the Avril/Summer troll (under his/her various aliases). Most of these questions were copied verbatim from Scientific American and other Q&A sites but there were others (e.g. "Do worms have brains?"). Either he/she believes that posting good faith questions might reduce his/her chances of being blocked (for the rest of the questions) or he/she doesn't agree with the answers given on those sites. If we AGF then we assume the latter, in which case he/she should inform us that there is an answer and he/she just wants a second opinion.
I responded quite harshly to these questions (in particular the worms one to which I apologised) and I realise now that I was wrong to do so. Here's a removal of many of good questions. My question is: is it cool to remove these questions? Zain Ebrahim ( talk) 14:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I just removed this question from the Science desk, as it provides a set of symptoms (fatigue, dizziness) and seeks an explanation.
The original author restored the question, and I've now removed it for a second time. I think that this is a clear-cut request for medical advice of the sort that we don't – and can't – offer, but I welcome second opinions. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 01:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Here Algebraist 14:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Moved to language desk. Gwinva ( talk) 23:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Why am I seeing to images of Avril Lavigne overlaying the Entertainment desk. It is not an edit to the page. It looks like a background image was changed - and it is overlaying the questions but not the sidebar or top links sections. Rmhermen ( talk) 18:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Given the very large number of probably complicated templates, and the unlikelyhood that most of them should be changed by without discussion, shouldn't they be protected, or at least semi-protected? Nil Einne ( talk) 18:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Seems the recent spate of St. John the apostle questions are from the same anon user who gave us the Tim Cahill q's. Just a note :-) Fribbler ( talk) 10:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I am officially announcing that I intend to give up trolling and vandalism on the Reference Desk. I am the so called "Avril Troll" (by the way I really dislike that name, I'd prefer the "Avril Admirer" or something) but I've grown bored, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to think up new ways to disrupt the Reference Desk. I've had fun, and I thank Wikipedia for indulging in my Avril fixation. I guess this is testimony to the amazing work of the Wikipedians who sought to stop my mayhem, and who knows, maybe one day I'll be the one fighting the vandals. Anyway, thank you all, and Goodbye. -- The Avril Troll —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Rightgoer ( talk • contribs)
Hello refdesk people. I'm the admin who fully protected the templates, blacklisted some Avril images, blocked many Tor nodes and sockpuppets, protected several user talk pages, filed a checkuser request, and spent several hours in the process of keeping this page and the help desk open to readers and editors alike, all due to the escalation of this trolling. I haven't really closely followed the full story of this troll, there are many things we tolerate on Wikipedia in good spirit, but template vandalism and blocking use of the entire helpdesk system is completely out of order by any standard. There is currently an unacceptable risk that it will happen again, and in my view this risk will remain for some time so I won't be readily undoing my actions. Any admin can reverse any of my actions but in my opinion they would be mad to rely on a statement by someone who says they've stopped because 'it is becoming increasingly difficult to think up new ways to disrupt the Reference Desk'. That is not a statement of repentance. I will happily undertake any edit requests myself - please leave a note on my talk page - or there is a well established system for making such requests with the {{ editprotected}} template. -- zzuuzz (talk) 21:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)