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One thing just struck my eye: the sample charts in WP:Record charts haven't got any references. Any objections if I install reference tags next to every position in the example charts? We need to reinforce to people that you must source all figures, and the references need to be next to the figure sourced (not at the table head or next to the chart name).— Kww( talk) 11:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, there is an issue that's come to light that makes this worthy of fresh discussion. Compare the sortable table here and here, and try to sort each table by position. The difference is the inclusion of the "sort" macro. Sorts fine with no references in the figure column. I guess the real question is whether we expect people to sort by position, or just by name.— Kww( talk) 03:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
This is an interesting email I received from Billboard's Silvio Pietroluongo. I didn't write to him specifically but I emailed Billboard to bitch about how their (subscription-only) .biz site still has all the old chart names and that chart data there seems to always get updated late, as opposed to the (free) .com website which is nice and revamped and pretty and interactive, displaying all the new chart names (I still hadn't had my coffee yet that morning and I was pissy). This is what he wrote back (emphasis added by me):
"...The charts on .biz do not necessarily have old names. We tweaked the names of some charts on .com to make them more understandable to visitors to that site who are more consumer-oriented and might not be as chart savvy as our longtime readers. The chart names in the print addition of Billboard mirror .biz for the most part. So there are some charts that are referred to differently depending on where you view them...."
So I don't know whether to revert articles to their previous titles? Any thoughts about this? - eo ( talk) 18:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Discussion has been minimal for 2 weeks, need some more eyes on the issue. k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 06:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
About: "Billboard component charts should not be used in the tables, unless the song fails to enter the main chart, but appears on an airplay or sales chart."
For singles the digital chart and genre charts are usually accepted and the page says "song" instead of "album". Can that be clarified? I was asked whether to include a digital albums chart in an article. Hekerui ( talk) 09:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Hitparadeitalia.it is sometimes used as source for the Italian charts in songs articles. However, after a comparison with Italiancharts.com, it appears that Hitparadeitalia doesn't provide the FIMI chart positions (their lists are different). I think it should be listed as WP:BADCHARTS. Europe22 ( talk) 23:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I noticed this morning that Billboard updated their website, both cosmetically and the change in URL (it's now www.billboard.com/#/ as opposed to www.billboard.com/bbcom/index.jsp). Unfortunately, with their update, several pages are now dead links (Error 404), including artist chart histories, individual chart peaks and probably much more. This is going to be hell trying to repair this links, but I thought I'd bring this to the attention of those who aren't aware of the change. — Σ xplicit 18:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC) All their articles are also dead links. They really screwed us over. — Σ xplicit 18:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Another problem is that Billboard.com isn't archiving its "Bubbling Under" charts right now, creating a roadblock for verifiability. -- Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 22:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Just to scale the problem, per this search, there are current 25,133 links to billboard.com from Wikipedia. Maybe the answer is to beg Billboard for help.— Kww( talk) 04:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I think we're going to have to make up a new table for what's what. New charts are popping up like Rock Songs, then we also have Hot Alternative Tracks and as said before, they've changed Top 40 Mainstream to just Pop Songs, does this mean it now incorporates sales or what?! k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 03:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I just fixed the links for the singles charts on Radiohead discography and Phoenix (band), so at least those two things are done. Also, a few artists' discographies like Pink Floyd and The Who link to Allmusic instead of Billboard because it uses the same information (but unlike Billboard's site, features chart positions from before 1987). I think that's also an alternative for Billboard chart peaks (from at least before this year because they don't have Modern Rock/Alternative chart information on songs like "1901" by Phoenix) for now (at least for me. Newer chart peaks, like the afformentioned Phoenix single, i'll use Billboard's new site). Well at least I know what i'm spending my weekend doing! Doc Strange Mailbox Logbook 14:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Another problem to watch out for. See: North by Something Corporate, which apparently charted at #5 on the Jazz Albums chart. It's not a Jazz Album, and well, Elvis Costello's North was in fact the charting that it's referring to. Well done Billboard, can't even decipher two completely different albums. k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 10:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
As it was pointed out, Billboard has altered and added various new charts. There are several issues that need to be sorted here. For example, we need to track down the charts that were simply renamed and modify the guideline accordingly; we also have to take note of the new charts and figure out which are component charts and which aren't—skimming, I see a Mexico chart, tropical chart (whatever the hell that is), and Yahoo! and AOL charts (I'm sure these two will fall under the "do not list" pile). I'm also seeing additional problems—peak positions are not lining up as they should be. For example, this says that the album Jeremih peaked at number 15, when in reality, it peaked number six. Not sure how far this extends, but will definitely be a problem if they have the peaks completely wrong. — Σ xplicit 06:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I just did some quick lookups on allmusic.com and billboard.com for Green Day single chart stats. I compared the two sites, and it turns out that "Rock Songs" = Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks, and "Alternative Songs" = Hot Modern Rock Tracks. -- Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 01:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
As far as Billboard stories go, I've pretty much figured out the change in URLs. Basically, all you need is the ID number from the stories. Below is a list of examples on how things work. (Note: changes in new URL will be in bold)
In a nutshell, here are the changes:
I have no clue how to get a bot running to do this, I'm no bot expert… or bot beginner at that. If anyone knows how or can ask someone else to set this up, we can get this replacement done at a much faster rate. I'm not touching discographies though, those get too complex. — Σ xplicit 04:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, billboardmagazine.com died today, so only the "new" billboard site exists. The bubbling under charts and that good old chart search function are no longer here. :( Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 21:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I found a blogger's archive of a Bubbling Under Hot 100 chart from October 2008. But that was when billboard actually had its great search function! Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 19:53, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone have a view on whether a ZoneMusicReporter chart satisfies Criteria 2 of Wikipedia:Notability (music)? The chart - claiming to be a "Top 100 Radio Airplay Chart" - contains a list of what are to me very obscure songs indeed. thanks -- Tagishsimon (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
There could be light at the end of the tunnel: I've just received an email from the BPI to say that the certification database should be back online in the next couple of weeks. The delay has been due to extra testing they're doing for some additional search options that there will be. -- JD554 ( talk) 14:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The awards database is finally back online [3] -- JD554 ( talk) 15:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
With one of the articles I that have been working on, a user has included the UK Dance Chart in the chart table using this as their source. Is this particular chart permitted? Note that the song has already charted on the official UK Singles Chart and Irish Singles Chart. • вяαdcяo chat 20:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
The RPM chart is not listed in the good charts table, so is it reliable for albums and singles positions between the 60s and the 90s? 190.233.8.10 ( talk) 08:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC) Also the table should have Slovakia since the chart is from IFPI and have the same layout of the Czech one. And what about the Romanian Top 100 and the Russian Airplay chart, are those considered reliable. 190.233.8.10 ( talk) 09:12, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
The Romanian chart [7]. They said they are based on airplay and claims the following: "recunoasterea internationala de catre Billboard (prin divizia europeana Music&Media, intre timp desfiintata)", something like they are recognized by Billboard's european magazine Music&Media. 190.233.8.10 ( talk) 16:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC) And this is the russian chart [8], don't know if the methodology is correct. 190.233.8.10 ( talk) 16:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
This is the place to find info on charts no longer archived on billboard.com I suppose. However, it's limited; it's not every week and it stops at Nov. 29, 2008. Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 06:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to find the chart page for "Illegal", by Shakira and Carlos Santana. I can't find the right combination of "Shakira", "Carlos Santana", and "featuring" to bring it up.— Kww( talk) 21:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
We need to discuss the Croatian Singles Chart at www.soundguardian.com/airplay-radio-chart. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22www.soundguardian.com%2Fairplay-radio-chart%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t doesn't give promising results at all. If I step back to http://www.google.com/search?q=%22www.soundguardian.com%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t then things get a little better. A discussion at WP:Croatia#Record charts has assured me that the chart claims to aggregate multiple airplay charts, but no word as to who is behind it. http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.barikada.com/&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en links to it, but it doesn't look a whole lot better than a blog. Opinions? Does this go in WP:BADCHARTS, or stay in that limbo of not being listed in either BADCHARTS or GOODCHARTS?— Kww( talk) 02:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
The new edition of Joel Whitburn's Top Pop Singles (12th edition) was just released and in this version all bubbling under positions have been integrated into the book. If there is no online source available, the ISBN is 0-89820-180-2. Note that the book covers 1955 until the end of 2008. Anything current will need a web source. - eo ( talk) 17:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Is the new version of Cashbox considered to be a notable and reliable source of info? Specifically, I'm interested in http://cashboxmagazine.com/CashboxCharts.htm, and even more specifically their Brazilian singles chart and their Mexican singles chart. I'd like to plug some of those holes we have in discussing Latin American songs and Latin American chart positions.— Kww( talk) 00:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Take a look at www.billbaord.com. It's the old site. Whois indicates that it is a legitimate site owned by Nielsen business media.— Kww( talk) 02:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Already back down. It's a real shame that they have the better version of the website apparently available to bring up by snapping their fingers, but insist on keeping the new one on-line. I wish they would at least add the search facility back in.— Kww( talk) 19:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Can one of you with access to www.billboard.biz check to see if there are any announcements regarding Billboard Turkey? The site has apparently been dead all week.— Kww( talk) 13:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Should the Heatseekers Songs charts be used, or is it a component chart? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ( Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 11:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
hey guys, just a reliability query regarding this site. it is listed at WP:GOODCHARTS in the sourcing guide as a recommendation for the uk singles chart archive. however, when some discography articles have gone up for FL review a couple of reviewers have insisted that this source is removed because it is unreliable. this puzzles me greatly. why is it listed at [GOODCHARTS] if it is apparently unreliable? i asked the reviewer and they said that just because it is listed here it doesnt guarantee its reliability. but i was under the impression that was the whole point of [GOODCHARTS], a guide of reliable sites perfectly acceptable for sourcing. or am i completely wrong? can i have some opinions guys please? :) Mister sparky ( talk) 22:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Are albums that come with 2 CDs still counted as double RIAA certifications?Like if an album ships 1.5 million copies, but is a double disc will it be certfied 3x platinum?I'm pretty sure it used to be like that, but I'm not sure if that still applies. Id really appreciate it if someone can explain to me the policies and how it works..thank!-- Petergriffin9901 ( talk) 04:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone got a clue as to the source for their Japan chart? I've matched it against Billboard, Oricon, and the Tokio Hot 100, and can't seem to make a match.— Kww( talk) 16:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Comments like this one disturb me, especially when the tables have 2 or 3 references for a dozen charts. We need to be more insistent about not using acharts as a source, notably when they think it trumps over using 10 more reliable sources (because it is easier just to add one). Can something be noted in the good charts guide saying that it is extremely discouraged to use an individual source for many charts? k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 12:49, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Anyone got a legitimate source for Bubbling Under R&B charts? I know that if I remove the chart position from Video Phone and redirect the it the parent albums as an uncharted stub I'm going to cause some angst among those that just can't wait to make new articles, so I'd rather just get a real source and avoid the problem.— Kww( talk) 22:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Should we be using the current names of charts? For example: Should we now use Alternative Songs instead of the old Hot Modern Rock Tracks. Or should it be relevant to the time the song was released, eg. a song released last year would link to HMRT. To me this is a no-brainer, to adjust the chart name for each song's timeline is just bloody confusing, we should use the current chart names to keep it simple and consistent. Reason I say this is because my AWB edits have been removed unexplained: [9] [10] [11] k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 04:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Oftentimes the sources you are citing indicate the chart name at the time. Allmusic does this. WesleyDodds ( talk) 09:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Should we be including Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks? and if so how should we reference it? As far as I can figure it is only available from billboard.bizz but requires a fee so linking to the reference would violate WP:EL. Thanks. J04n( talk page) 17:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
In Ne-Yo discography Allmusic is used as the main source for charting. Is this considered a reliable charting source or not? If so why isn't it listed in the sourcing guide?-- Diaa abdelmoneim ( talk) 12:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like people to look at User:Kww/charttemplate and {{ singlechart}} (you'll have to look at the source to see how they work). I'm not going to move much further without some feedback. The concept is pretty simple: plug in a chart, position, artist, and title, and it automatically generates the referencing. I'll be able to expand it to do a few nicer things: automatically flag invalid chart names, and a bot that periodically verifies that the position provided is accurate (keeping things up to date and automatically preventing vandalism). Billboard is doable, but nastier, because someone is going to have to plug in the chart number. Still, take a look at how it gets used, and let me know if you think I'm on a reasonable track or not.— Kww( talk) 01:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Should singles discography tables include B-sides where applicable and sourced? I usually remove them as being unsourced, but Joel Whitburn's books almost always list the B-side if the single had one. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ( Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 01:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I removed the ARIA in Australian ARIA Singles Chart on the project page, which was reverted. This is something that has been discussed before and it really deserves some concrete consensus. Saying Australian ARIA Singles Chart is literally saying "Australian Australian Recording Industry Association Singles Chart". JD, you said it is offical - according to the ARIA Report it is the Australian Top 100 Singles Chart and the ARIA Charts website calls it the ARIA Top 50 Singles Chart - so I think it's something which is obviously debatable... it makes no sense for us to assume we have to include ARIA in the title, especially when we then have to also specify 'Australian' and in turn, repeat it. So, should titles include the name of the relevant association? If so, we should be labelling all the charts properly (eg. UK Official Charts Company Singles Chart, Canadian CRIA Singles Chart). k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 09:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
sorry to bother you all agian. Since billboard made some changes on Billboard turkey link to turkey top 20 is not vail anymore. i do not speak turkish, and i can't find on that site billboard turkey top 20 cahrt. can anyone find it? -- SveroH ( talk) 18:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
The introductory site's up. It says it's supposed to open up in October, so hopefully we'll finally have a good national chart for South Korea...... SKS ( talk) 19:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I recently asked Xymmax to reconsider the decision to delete the article on the Latvian Airplay Top... charts, and was advised to seek consensus here. It appears to me to be a legitimate chart, and I think relevant factors were overlooked during the very brief deletion discussion. Here's the conversation I had with Xymmax:
Greetings. I have not actually read the article in question but I was surprised to discover that it had been deleted and consequently this music chart is no longer considered an appropriate source for Wikipedia articles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Latvian_Airplay_Top
There was minimal discussion and the reasons are not entirely clear to me, especially without access to the original article and its subpages. "Unsourced since 2007", yet one of the subpages also deleted was Latvian Airplay Top number-one hits of 2008. Was this page also unsourced? If the 2008 page was sourced, surely the same source could have been cited on the main article instead of deleting it?
"dubious chart, no hits unrelated to Wikipedia. "Latvijas rokziņu aģentūra" turns up 7 hits, Wikipedia and mirrors." Apparently "Latvijas rokziņu aģentūra" is "Latvian rock-news agency" which now yields 220 Google hits, and much more to the point, the phrase "Latvian Airplay Top" produces about 131 000 Google hits. I had a cursory look at the first few pages of results, and it appears that most are not directly related to Wikipedia (especially when you get past the first page or two).
This chart is listed at "Charts All Over the World" http://www.lanet.lv/misc/charts/ and I don't think the limited information on the organisation behind it (which may be due to some sort of translation error for all I know) is sufficient reason to discredit this very widely cited music chart. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 13:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hello. I did close the AfD. There was no AfD notice at the top of each of the subpages, so I only deleted the main page. After I closed the AfD, TenPoundHammer, the nominator, added speedy deletion tags to all the subpages, and Dank deleted those including the 2008 page you mentioned. Looking at that chart, it does have the link to www.lanet.lv, and no such link was on the main page. I also see that http://www.lanet.lv has made it onto the WP:BADCHARTS list, presumably as a result of the AfD. Since the AfD I closed never considered that link, I agree that it isn't appropriate to exclude lanet.lv based on that discussion. I don't normally edit in that area, so I don't know whether there was some other AfD where it was decided to exclude the link or not. What I suggest is that you try to get consensus over at WT:Record charts, which is the talk page for BADCHARTS, to remove lanet.lv from the BADCHARTS list. If they agree that the source is legitimate, I'll restore all the pages. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 14:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting that the Latvian Airplay Top whatever or the related Latvian Singles Chart should be considered of major importance in global terms, but there may be cases where these are worth mentioning and I don't think they should be blacklisted. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 16:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Ok, we have a few issues here.
Just because the chart is may not be notable for an article on Wikipedia, does that automatically make it a "bad chart", even if it is the official airplay chart of Latvia? Just wondering. AnemoneProjectors ( talk) 17:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
A very good question, and one which is important enough to warrant a separate discussion thread: I would not want to prejudice consensus regarding the wider principle by tying it to this particular case.
I have done some research and the "Latvian Singles Chart" which was also the subject of a deleted Wikipedia article does not appear to exist: I believe it to be either a misnomer or a predecessor of the Latvian "Spice" Music Chart (listed on Latvian Wikipedia as Latvijas Spice) which is an airplay-based chart specifically for Latvian music, documented at the same website as the Latvian Airplay Top chart.
Kww, "reliable source supporting the claim that the site is official and isn't from a single vendor or single network" may be a bigger ask than you realise: if you take a look at the UK Singles Chart article you will see that although it is much more detailed than the deleted Latvian Airplay Top article, UK Singles Chart has only 3 footnote references, only one of which contains any reference to the chart's methodology (an article mentioning that digital downloads are counted and speculating that planned Beatles download releases could dominate the charts). Another cited link probably said something similar but the article is no longer there. The UK Singles Chart article is probably based almost entirely on information published by The Official Charts Company itself, but would we question its validity?
Mirrors of the old Latvian Airplay Top article state that the chart was compiled at that time based on airplay data from 15 radio stations. The current Latvian Wikipedia article (alas lacking citations) states that 18 radio stations and TV channels are used: these are listed in a table and some have their own articles. Both these articles may be out of date: the website which publishes the chart lists 19 component charts currently used (since Dec 2008) for the Latvian Airplay Top, and 7 for the Latvian Music Chart.
I have found a variety of sources other than the ubiquitous blogs, YouTube videos and Wikipedia mirrors which refer to this chart. Since magazines and newspapers were suggested, I have a webpage from Diena, a Latvian newspaper
http://www.diena.lv/lat/search?where=1&query=Latvian+Airplay+Top&order_by_date=yes
and this appears to be another newspaper or magazine site
http://www.tvnet.lv/muzika/Video/demo/article.php?id=160091
CHART LIST WEBSITES:
These list both Latvian Airplay Top and Latvian Music Charts (all link to the same main chart pages at lanet.lv):
http://www.lanet.lv/misc/charts/ (evidently part of the same website which hosts current and archived Latvian charts)
http://www.alaskajim.com/charts/currentsingles/international/latvia.php main charts & some component charts (some links no longer work)
http://www.useyourears.co.uk/music-industry/music-charts/world-music-charts.php
http://www.btinternet.com/~Huggesey/charts.htm includes some component charts with links to radio station websites but not directly to the actual component charts
These list the Latvian Music Chart but not the Latvian Airplay Top:
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/music_directory/music_chart.php
http://www.vocalist.org.uk/music_charts.html
WEBSITES REFERRING TO LATVIAN AIRPLAY TOP POSITIONS
Mostly music artist webpages, some from artists' official sites, some third-party (a few examples: more exist)
http://www.a-ha.com/news/languages/english/archive/AHA_fullStory.aspx?PostID=1934
http://www.parishiltonsite.net/starsareblind.php
http://www.last.fm/music/Jenny+May
http://darrenhayes.eclub.lv/en/news.html#charts010506
http://muzictime.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/hips-dont-lie-shakira-feat-wyclef-jean/
http://www.brainstorm.lv/?mid=47&pname=main&lang=3&mid2=48
http://www.thisdayinrock.com/index.php/1997/02/
http://home.lanet.lv/~julita/sa/ this one is unofficial but mentions component charts
MISCELLANEOUS
http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/Latvia/Entertainment/Music/?o=a Yahoo directory listing Latvian Airplay Top 20
http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/pop_culture_randall.htm Academic paper (published by the University of Washington; presumably a good or at least acceptable example of a well-researched study) referencing the Latvian Music Chart.
Both these widely recognised charts appear to be legitimate and generally accepted as official Latvian charts. I propose that they should be removed from the Badcharts list and accepted as sources in Wikipedia articles. I would also like the Latvian Airplay Top article and its subpages restored. As for the Latvian Singles Chart article, perhaps it could be userfied to enable me to use its contents as the basis for a new article with a more accurate title if appropriate? Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 16:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to review these sources. I think it's quite obvious that the "Latvian Airplay Top 40" and "Latvian Airplay Top 50" do refer to same chart (which also publishes annual Top 500 charts). The very reason the previous Wikipedia article was Latvian Airplay Top not Latvian Airplay Top 40, Latvian Airplay Top 50 or whatever is that the number quoted can vary. You would assume that UK Top 40 and UK Top 75 are part of the same chart wouldn't you? (I don't know where you're from so apologies for choosing the UK charts as an example if you're not familiar with them: I just picked an example which is familiar to me for comparison).
http://www.tvnet.lv/muzika/Video/demo/article.php?id=160091
- "Of all the sources you have provided, this one comes the closest: it identifies a Latvian Airplay Top 50, and claims it is an airplay chart summarizing all Latvian radio stations. If it clearly identified what chart it was referencing, and the publisher, this would nearly do it."
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It describes a track's performance in the Latvian Airplay Top 50 chart which it names and defines. Obviously naming the publisher too would be even better, but the article does clearly identify the chart.
That's actually more than can be said for the only cited reference on the UK Singles Chart article which makes any reference at all to how the chart is compiled. The cited article states:
Consequently, with singles and album charts now calculated by taking into account online music sales many have now predicted this will lead to a complete whitewash of both the Top 10 and the Top 40 as fans scramble to get their hands on all time classics like Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Revolver and hits such as Hey Jude, Penny Lane and Help!
It does not actually specify the name(s) of the chart(s) to which it refers, let alone provide details of their publishers.
With respect, are you seriously demanding a higher standard of verification for a chart representing a country about half the size of Scotland than for one representing the whole UK? Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 18:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
If you look at the chart website's archive page, you'll see it links to "Archives of all Latvian Airplay Top 20's, Top 30's, Top 40's and Top 50's (since April 3rd, 1994)". A look through the archives reveals that the change from Top 40 - Top 50 took place from Week 52, 2004 to Week 1, 2005. If you check the "this week" and "last week" positions, they match up: it is the same chart, expanded to include more positions. You will also find that the song mentioned in that newspaper website I cited was in the chart during this changeover, so it was in both the Latvian Airplay Top 40 and the Latvian Airplay Top 50 but these were not separate charts: the expansion explains why a source would refer to its success in the Latvian Airplay Top 40 when the official title of the chart in which it featured most recently was Latvian Airplay Top 50. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 21:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
OK, more Latvian sources so you might want to put them through Google Translate or something: they all name and briefly define the Latvian Airplay Top 50 or Top 40 chart.
http://www.platforma.lv/news/article.php?id=3542
http://www.ventspils.lv/NR/exeres/D0E5D26B-AACD-4EF6-998C-8DA0BD02CDB7
http://www.mikseris.lv/?doc=1394
Contains Mild Peril (
talk)
00:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I picked the ones which actually say something about what the chart is. When it was expanded from Latvian Airplay Top 40 to Latvian Airplay Top 50, the compilation method was also expanded to include a more comprehensive list of radio stations, so that's probably why it was mentioned in media reports from that era. There are certainly more recent articles which refer to the Latvian Airplay Top 50 without defining it. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 14:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit conflicted on this one. Contains Mild Peril has provided some useful links.
So, in summary, the sourcing is not great, but it isn't non-existent, either. It's apparent that reasonably reliable sources inside of Latvia refer to the chart. That goes a long way towards saying that it meets WP:RS.
Its stated methodology, combining data from multiple stations, isn't bad. They purposely distort the chart to emphasise foreign music, but every chart in the world is guilty of methodology distortion.
The main problem I see is that this still seems to be a hobby chart. It is compiled by Atis Klušs, who maintains a home page at http://www.lanet.lv/users/akluss/ . I'm not sure that we are in the position of saying that hobby charts are necessarily unacceptable, though. If it is referenced by Latvian news sources, does that pull it out of "hobby" status and into "as much as you can expect from a small country like Latvia" status?— Kww( talk) 18:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello there. I've always used ACharts for all my GA/FA after EveryHit's about us page was deemed not reliable at FAC. What's the official party line on using Zobbel and/or ChartStats? RB88 ( T) 15:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Everyhit should be ok if the song enters 1-40 though, no? Jayy008 ( talk) 17:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Seems that a Polish Singles Chart is making its way into articles using this website as the source ( 83.21.243.108 ( talk) is making these additions). Seeing as I have to leave to school in a few minutes, I really don't have time at the moment to get too deep into this, though I felt it was a good idea to bring this up to those who will be around while I'm at school. — ξ xplicit 16:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Why is the Polish Singles Chart a Wiki: Bad Chart??? Jayy008 ( talk) 17:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
{{helpme}} I apologize if the helpme template is unappropriate here.
The project page states, "Billboard component charts should not be used in the tables, unless the song fails to enter the main chart, but appears on an airplay or sales chart...."
Why is this? Billboard is a recognized industry leader. Any Billboard chart that contains the subject should be shown as a matter of course. To do otherwise is to put one's own spin or POV upon it as saying it is UNimportant. Doesn't that violate
WP:Npov. If Billboard deems to create a chart, why can't it be stated. It is verifiable and encyclopedic.
Iknow23 (
talk)
03:10, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
"Please could some people comment on my question re. Billboard, in [[Wikipedia talk:Record charts#PROPOSAL: Use all Billboard charts that relate to the subject.]]"
Chzz
►
03:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)Right, since the Pop 100 (a non-component to Hot 100) was dis-continued a few months the replacement (Pop songs a component to Hot 100) keep being deleting and putting back. So there is obviously mixed feelings on whether this should be allowed.
Although Pop Songs is a component to the Billboard Hot 100. Billboard itself calls Pop Songs/Mainstream Top 10 a direct replacement for the Pop 100.
So What is everyone's thoughts on the status of this chart on wikipedia? Jayy008 ( talk) 16:11, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Comment Yes it is but it's a direct replacement for the pop 100 which is why people keep adding it. I think if it's not allowed it should be listed on WK: Bad Charts as it's own chart and not because it's an airplay only chart. Jayy008 ( talk) 21:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
An issue highlighted by some recent discussions (e.g. concerning Latvian and Croatian charts) is that the current classifications of "GOODCHARTS" and "BADCHARTS" may be oversimplistic and in some cases it may be more helpful to have some sort of middle ground. AnemoneProjectors asked:
Just because the chart is may not be notable for an article on Wikipedia, does that automatically make it a "bad chart", even if it is the official airplay chart of Latvia? Just wondering.
which is a very pertinent question. The policy of blacklisting charts whose articles are deleted appears to have become established via precedent rather than proposal and discussion of the principle. Music charts may be a special case, but if every source cited on Wikipedia were required to fulfil the necessary criteria to merit its own article, we could be in a lot of trouble! Conversely, it might not necessarily follow that a chart with its own article is a "good" chart. There are also charts which have never been the subject of a Wikipedia article, whose status may be difficult to verify.
I propose that in place of the "BADCHARTS" list we should have the following categories:
BOGUS CHARTS: Charts which are known to be fake, or which have no known official status, affiliation with any professional organisation or recognition by
Reliable Sources. These should never be used as sources.
UNOFFICIAL CHARTS OR LISTS: This category would include things like single vendor charts, TV "countdowns" and other editorial or vote-based charts published by
reliable sources. These must not be used in chart tables or lists, but may be mentioned in article prose (and may contribute towards verifying notability of an article topic) provided they are appropriately sourced and the status of the chart or list is made clear (i.e. it will not be mistaken for an official chart).
QUESTIONABLE CHARTS Charts which appear legitimate but whose notability, verifiability and/or methodology is in question. This category is likely to include charts representing very small countries. These charts should not be added indiscriminately to discography tables, but may appropriately be used under certain certain circumstances, e.g.
Any thoughts? Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 06:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I think we more or less had consensus about limiting the numbers of charts in tables to prevent indiscriminate listing of all the minor charts, but as you've already noted that doesn't always work. I would still prefer a separate cateogry for questionable charts, but I would support a policy that charts from non-IFPI countries should only be used in special cases. I'm wary of making the wording to be too rigid lest we unintentionally exclude releases with a legitimate reason for mentioning that chart that we may overlook when formulating the policy. Could we go with something like "Charts from non- IFPI countries should not normally be included in tables, and should only be used in cases where there is a very specific reason, such as charts representing the home country of the artist or composer (this can mean country of origin, country of residence, official nationality or any country where the artist or composer has lived for a substantial part of their lives) or releases with a strong link to the country in question (e.g. Eurovision entries)." It's a little clumsy but it says what it needs to, and maybe we can work on the exact wording.
As to the issue of major single vendor charts, vote-based charts etc, I think the ruling should be that these must not be listed in the discography or chart performance sections of articles, nor in separate discography articles. I think it may occasionally be legitimate to mention something like that for example in a biographical section describing a band's rise to fame. For example, in cases where an editor questions the WP:Notability of some relatively obscure foreign artist or release, other editors should be free to include any reasonably verifiable evidence of notability. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 14:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Tbh JazzDalek, I can't actually think of a real example where referring to single-vendor or editorial/ vote-based "charts" would be appropriate either. The latter tend to consist of songs which have already entered major legitimate charts, so their inclusion in an article would probably be somewhat redundant and amount to trivia. Hypothetically, if a song or album which never achieved a high chart position later became regarded as a classic and topped a TV poll, this could be considered notable; and with the existence of so many charts whose archives appear to be unverifiable it's also possible that a single-vendor chart may sometimes be the only one for which data relating to a genuine hit are actually available.
OK, since my separate categories idea seems unlikely to gain consensus, I hope striking my original proposal and adding this here is OK - I don't know the proper protocol for amendments
Charts from non- IFPI countries should not normally be included in tables, and should only be used in cases where there is a very specific reason, such as charts representing the home country of the artist or composer (this can mean country of origin, country of residence, official nationality or any country where the artist or composer has lived for a substantial part of their lives) or releases with a strong link to the country in question (e.g. Eurovision entries).
By reducing indiscriminate inclusion of minor charts, we can allow for a slightly more lenient policy when it comes to considering such charts as reliable sources where appropriate. A chart's "goodchart" or "badchart" status should not necessarily depend on whether or not it is the subject of a current or deleted Wikipedia article, although factors considered during deletion processes may also be relevant in consideration of Reliable Source status. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 19:58, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
One thing just struck my eye: the sample charts in WP:Record charts haven't got any references. Any objections if I install reference tags next to every position in the example charts? We need to reinforce to people that you must source all figures, and the references need to be next to the figure sourced (not at the table head or next to the chart name).— Kww( talk) 11:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, there is an issue that's come to light that makes this worthy of fresh discussion. Compare the sortable table here and here, and try to sort each table by position. The difference is the inclusion of the "sort" macro. Sorts fine with no references in the figure column. I guess the real question is whether we expect people to sort by position, or just by name.— Kww( talk) 03:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
This is an interesting email I received from Billboard's Silvio Pietroluongo. I didn't write to him specifically but I emailed Billboard to bitch about how their (subscription-only) .biz site still has all the old chart names and that chart data there seems to always get updated late, as opposed to the (free) .com website which is nice and revamped and pretty and interactive, displaying all the new chart names (I still hadn't had my coffee yet that morning and I was pissy). This is what he wrote back (emphasis added by me):
"...The charts on .biz do not necessarily have old names. We tweaked the names of some charts on .com to make them more understandable to visitors to that site who are more consumer-oriented and might not be as chart savvy as our longtime readers. The chart names in the print addition of Billboard mirror .biz for the most part. So there are some charts that are referred to differently depending on where you view them...."
So I don't know whether to revert articles to their previous titles? Any thoughts about this? - eo ( talk) 18:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Discussion has been minimal for 2 weeks, need some more eyes on the issue. k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 06:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
About: "Billboard component charts should not be used in the tables, unless the song fails to enter the main chart, but appears on an airplay or sales chart."
For singles the digital chart and genre charts are usually accepted and the page says "song" instead of "album". Can that be clarified? I was asked whether to include a digital albums chart in an article. Hekerui ( talk) 09:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Hitparadeitalia.it is sometimes used as source for the Italian charts in songs articles. However, after a comparison with Italiancharts.com, it appears that Hitparadeitalia doesn't provide the FIMI chart positions (their lists are different). I think it should be listed as WP:BADCHARTS. Europe22 ( talk) 23:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I noticed this morning that Billboard updated their website, both cosmetically and the change in URL (it's now www.billboard.com/#/ as opposed to www.billboard.com/bbcom/index.jsp). Unfortunately, with their update, several pages are now dead links (Error 404), including artist chart histories, individual chart peaks and probably much more. This is going to be hell trying to repair this links, but I thought I'd bring this to the attention of those who aren't aware of the change. — Σ xplicit 18:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC) All their articles are also dead links. They really screwed us over. — Σ xplicit 18:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Another problem is that Billboard.com isn't archiving its "Bubbling Under" charts right now, creating a roadblock for verifiability. -- Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 22:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Just to scale the problem, per this search, there are current 25,133 links to billboard.com from Wikipedia. Maybe the answer is to beg Billboard for help.— Kww( talk) 04:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I think we're going to have to make up a new table for what's what. New charts are popping up like Rock Songs, then we also have Hot Alternative Tracks and as said before, they've changed Top 40 Mainstream to just Pop Songs, does this mean it now incorporates sales or what?! k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 03:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I just fixed the links for the singles charts on Radiohead discography and Phoenix (band), so at least those two things are done. Also, a few artists' discographies like Pink Floyd and The Who link to Allmusic instead of Billboard because it uses the same information (but unlike Billboard's site, features chart positions from before 1987). I think that's also an alternative for Billboard chart peaks (from at least before this year because they don't have Modern Rock/Alternative chart information on songs like "1901" by Phoenix) for now (at least for me. Newer chart peaks, like the afformentioned Phoenix single, i'll use Billboard's new site). Well at least I know what i'm spending my weekend doing! Doc Strange Mailbox Logbook 14:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Another problem to watch out for. See: North by Something Corporate, which apparently charted at #5 on the Jazz Albums chart. It's not a Jazz Album, and well, Elvis Costello's North was in fact the charting that it's referring to. Well done Billboard, can't even decipher two completely different albums. k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 10:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
As it was pointed out, Billboard has altered and added various new charts. There are several issues that need to be sorted here. For example, we need to track down the charts that were simply renamed and modify the guideline accordingly; we also have to take note of the new charts and figure out which are component charts and which aren't—skimming, I see a Mexico chart, tropical chart (whatever the hell that is), and Yahoo! and AOL charts (I'm sure these two will fall under the "do not list" pile). I'm also seeing additional problems—peak positions are not lining up as they should be. For example, this says that the album Jeremih peaked at number 15, when in reality, it peaked number six. Not sure how far this extends, but will definitely be a problem if they have the peaks completely wrong. — Σ xplicit 06:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I just did some quick lookups on allmusic.com and billboard.com for Green Day single chart stats. I compared the two sites, and it turns out that "Rock Songs" = Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks, and "Alternative Songs" = Hot Modern Rock Tracks. -- Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 01:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
As far as Billboard stories go, I've pretty much figured out the change in URLs. Basically, all you need is the ID number from the stories. Below is a list of examples on how things work. (Note: changes in new URL will be in bold)
In a nutshell, here are the changes:
I have no clue how to get a bot running to do this, I'm no bot expert… or bot beginner at that. If anyone knows how or can ask someone else to set this up, we can get this replacement done at a much faster rate. I'm not touching discographies though, those get too complex. — Σ xplicit 04:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, billboardmagazine.com died today, so only the "new" billboard site exists. The bubbling under charts and that good old chart search function are no longer here. :( Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 21:38, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I found a blogger's archive of a Bubbling Under Hot 100 chart from October 2008. But that was when billboard actually had its great search function! Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 19:53, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone have a view on whether a ZoneMusicReporter chart satisfies Criteria 2 of Wikipedia:Notability (music)? The chart - claiming to be a "Top 100 Radio Airplay Chart" - contains a list of what are to me very obscure songs indeed. thanks -- Tagishsimon (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
There could be light at the end of the tunnel: I've just received an email from the BPI to say that the certification database should be back online in the next couple of weeks. The delay has been due to extra testing they're doing for some additional search options that there will be. -- JD554 ( talk) 14:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The awards database is finally back online [3] -- JD554 ( talk) 15:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
With one of the articles I that have been working on, a user has included the UK Dance Chart in the chart table using this as their source. Is this particular chart permitted? Note that the song has already charted on the official UK Singles Chart and Irish Singles Chart. • вяαdcяo chat 20:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
The RPM chart is not listed in the good charts table, so is it reliable for albums and singles positions between the 60s and the 90s? 190.233.8.10 ( talk) 08:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC) Also the table should have Slovakia since the chart is from IFPI and have the same layout of the Czech one. And what about the Romanian Top 100 and the Russian Airplay chart, are those considered reliable. 190.233.8.10 ( talk) 09:12, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
The Romanian chart [7]. They said they are based on airplay and claims the following: "recunoasterea internationala de catre Billboard (prin divizia europeana Music&Media, intre timp desfiintata)", something like they are recognized by Billboard's european magazine Music&Media. 190.233.8.10 ( talk) 16:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC) And this is the russian chart [8], don't know if the methodology is correct. 190.233.8.10 ( talk) 16:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
This is the place to find info on charts no longer archived on billboard.com I suppose. However, it's limited; it's not every week and it stops at Nov. 29, 2008. Andrewlp1991 ( talk) 06:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to find the chart page for "Illegal", by Shakira and Carlos Santana. I can't find the right combination of "Shakira", "Carlos Santana", and "featuring" to bring it up.— Kww( talk) 21:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
We need to discuss the Croatian Singles Chart at www.soundguardian.com/airplay-radio-chart. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22www.soundguardian.com%2Fairplay-radio-chart%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t doesn't give promising results at all. If I step back to http://www.google.com/search?q=%22www.soundguardian.com%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t then things get a little better. A discussion at WP:Croatia#Record charts has assured me that the chart claims to aggregate multiple airplay charts, but no word as to who is behind it. http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.barikada.com/&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en links to it, but it doesn't look a whole lot better than a blog. Opinions? Does this go in WP:BADCHARTS, or stay in that limbo of not being listed in either BADCHARTS or GOODCHARTS?— Kww( talk) 02:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
The new edition of Joel Whitburn's Top Pop Singles (12th edition) was just released and in this version all bubbling under positions have been integrated into the book. If there is no online source available, the ISBN is 0-89820-180-2. Note that the book covers 1955 until the end of 2008. Anything current will need a web source. - eo ( talk) 17:22, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Is the new version of Cashbox considered to be a notable and reliable source of info? Specifically, I'm interested in http://cashboxmagazine.com/CashboxCharts.htm, and even more specifically their Brazilian singles chart and their Mexican singles chart. I'd like to plug some of those holes we have in discussing Latin American songs and Latin American chart positions.— Kww( talk) 00:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Take a look at www.billbaord.com. It's the old site. Whois indicates that it is a legitimate site owned by Nielsen business media.— Kww( talk) 02:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Already back down. It's a real shame that they have the better version of the website apparently available to bring up by snapping their fingers, but insist on keeping the new one on-line. I wish they would at least add the search facility back in.— Kww( talk) 19:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
Can one of you with access to www.billboard.biz check to see if there are any announcements regarding Billboard Turkey? The site has apparently been dead all week.— Kww( talk) 13:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Should the Heatseekers Songs charts be used, or is it a component chart? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ( Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 11:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
hey guys, just a reliability query regarding this site. it is listed at WP:GOODCHARTS in the sourcing guide as a recommendation for the uk singles chart archive. however, when some discography articles have gone up for FL review a couple of reviewers have insisted that this source is removed because it is unreliable. this puzzles me greatly. why is it listed at [GOODCHARTS] if it is apparently unreliable? i asked the reviewer and they said that just because it is listed here it doesnt guarantee its reliability. but i was under the impression that was the whole point of [GOODCHARTS], a guide of reliable sites perfectly acceptable for sourcing. or am i completely wrong? can i have some opinions guys please? :) Mister sparky ( talk) 22:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Are albums that come with 2 CDs still counted as double RIAA certifications?Like if an album ships 1.5 million copies, but is a double disc will it be certfied 3x platinum?I'm pretty sure it used to be like that, but I'm not sure if that still applies. Id really appreciate it if someone can explain to me the policies and how it works..thank!-- Petergriffin9901 ( talk) 04:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Has anyone got a clue as to the source for their Japan chart? I've matched it against Billboard, Oricon, and the Tokio Hot 100, and can't seem to make a match.— Kww( talk) 16:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Comments like this one disturb me, especially when the tables have 2 or 3 references for a dozen charts. We need to be more insistent about not using acharts as a source, notably when they think it trumps over using 10 more reliable sources (because it is easier just to add one). Can something be noted in the good charts guide saying that it is extremely discouraged to use an individual source for many charts? k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 12:49, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Anyone got a legitimate source for Bubbling Under R&B charts? I know that if I remove the chart position from Video Phone and redirect the it the parent albums as an uncharted stub I'm going to cause some angst among those that just can't wait to make new articles, so I'd rather just get a real source and avoid the problem.— Kww( talk) 22:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Should we be using the current names of charts? For example: Should we now use Alternative Songs instead of the old Hot Modern Rock Tracks. Or should it be relevant to the time the song was released, eg. a song released last year would link to HMRT. To me this is a no-brainer, to adjust the chart name for each song's timeline is just bloody confusing, we should use the current chart names to keep it simple and consistent. Reason I say this is because my AWB edits have been removed unexplained: [9] [10] [11] k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 04:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Oftentimes the sources you are citing indicate the chart name at the time. Allmusic does this. WesleyDodds ( talk) 09:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Should we be including Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks? and if so how should we reference it? As far as I can figure it is only available from billboard.bizz but requires a fee so linking to the reference would violate WP:EL. Thanks. J04n( talk page) 17:08, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
In Ne-Yo discography Allmusic is used as the main source for charting. Is this considered a reliable charting source or not? If so why isn't it listed in the sourcing guide?-- Diaa abdelmoneim ( talk) 12:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like people to look at User:Kww/charttemplate and {{ singlechart}} (you'll have to look at the source to see how they work). I'm not going to move much further without some feedback. The concept is pretty simple: plug in a chart, position, artist, and title, and it automatically generates the referencing. I'll be able to expand it to do a few nicer things: automatically flag invalid chart names, and a bot that periodically verifies that the position provided is accurate (keeping things up to date and automatically preventing vandalism). Billboard is doable, but nastier, because someone is going to have to plug in the chart number. Still, take a look at how it gets used, and let me know if you think I'm on a reasonable track or not.— Kww( talk) 01:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Should singles discography tables include B-sides where applicable and sourced? I usually remove them as being unsourced, but Joel Whitburn's books almost always list the B-side if the single had one. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ( Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 01:39, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I removed the ARIA in Australian ARIA Singles Chart on the project page, which was reverted. This is something that has been discussed before and it really deserves some concrete consensus. Saying Australian ARIA Singles Chart is literally saying "Australian Australian Recording Industry Association Singles Chart". JD, you said it is offical - according to the ARIA Report it is the Australian Top 100 Singles Chart and the ARIA Charts website calls it the ARIA Top 50 Singles Chart - so I think it's something which is obviously debatable... it makes no sense for us to assume we have to include ARIA in the title, especially when we then have to also specify 'Australian' and in turn, repeat it. So, should titles include the name of the relevant association? If so, we should be labelling all the charts properly (eg. UK Official Charts Company Singles Chart, Canadian CRIA Singles Chart). k.i.a.c ( talktome - contribs) 09:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
sorry to bother you all agian. Since billboard made some changes on Billboard turkey link to turkey top 20 is not vail anymore. i do not speak turkish, and i can't find on that site billboard turkey top 20 cahrt. can anyone find it? -- SveroH ( talk) 18:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
The introductory site's up. It says it's supposed to open up in October, so hopefully we'll finally have a good national chart for South Korea...... SKS ( talk) 19:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I recently asked Xymmax to reconsider the decision to delete the article on the Latvian Airplay Top... charts, and was advised to seek consensus here. It appears to me to be a legitimate chart, and I think relevant factors were overlooked during the very brief deletion discussion. Here's the conversation I had with Xymmax:
Greetings. I have not actually read the article in question but I was surprised to discover that it had been deleted and consequently this music chart is no longer considered an appropriate source for Wikipedia articles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Latvian_Airplay_Top
There was minimal discussion and the reasons are not entirely clear to me, especially without access to the original article and its subpages. "Unsourced since 2007", yet one of the subpages also deleted was Latvian Airplay Top number-one hits of 2008. Was this page also unsourced? If the 2008 page was sourced, surely the same source could have been cited on the main article instead of deleting it?
"dubious chart, no hits unrelated to Wikipedia. "Latvijas rokziņu aģentūra" turns up 7 hits, Wikipedia and mirrors." Apparently "Latvijas rokziņu aģentūra" is "Latvian rock-news agency" which now yields 220 Google hits, and much more to the point, the phrase "Latvian Airplay Top" produces about 131 000 Google hits. I had a cursory look at the first few pages of results, and it appears that most are not directly related to Wikipedia (especially when you get past the first page or two).
This chart is listed at "Charts All Over the World" http://www.lanet.lv/misc/charts/ and I don't think the limited information on the organisation behind it (which may be due to some sort of translation error for all I know) is sufficient reason to discredit this very widely cited music chart. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 13:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hello. I did close the AfD. There was no AfD notice at the top of each of the subpages, so I only deleted the main page. After I closed the AfD, TenPoundHammer, the nominator, added speedy deletion tags to all the subpages, and Dank deleted those including the 2008 page you mentioned. Looking at that chart, it does have the link to www.lanet.lv, and no such link was on the main page. I also see that http://www.lanet.lv has made it onto the WP:BADCHARTS list, presumably as a result of the AfD. Since the AfD I closed never considered that link, I agree that it isn't appropriate to exclude lanet.lv based on that discussion. I don't normally edit in that area, so I don't know whether there was some other AfD where it was decided to exclude the link or not. What I suggest is that you try to get consensus over at WT:Record charts, which is the talk page for BADCHARTS, to remove lanet.lv from the BADCHARTS list. If they agree that the source is legitimate, I'll restore all the pages. Xymmax So let it be written So let it be done 14:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting that the Latvian Airplay Top whatever or the related Latvian Singles Chart should be considered of major importance in global terms, but there may be cases where these are worth mentioning and I don't think they should be blacklisted. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 16:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Ok, we have a few issues here.
Just because the chart is may not be notable for an article on Wikipedia, does that automatically make it a "bad chart", even if it is the official airplay chart of Latvia? Just wondering. AnemoneProjectors ( talk) 17:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
A very good question, and one which is important enough to warrant a separate discussion thread: I would not want to prejudice consensus regarding the wider principle by tying it to this particular case.
I have done some research and the "Latvian Singles Chart" which was also the subject of a deleted Wikipedia article does not appear to exist: I believe it to be either a misnomer or a predecessor of the Latvian "Spice" Music Chart (listed on Latvian Wikipedia as Latvijas Spice) which is an airplay-based chart specifically for Latvian music, documented at the same website as the Latvian Airplay Top chart.
Kww, "reliable source supporting the claim that the site is official and isn't from a single vendor or single network" may be a bigger ask than you realise: if you take a look at the UK Singles Chart article you will see that although it is much more detailed than the deleted Latvian Airplay Top article, UK Singles Chart has only 3 footnote references, only one of which contains any reference to the chart's methodology (an article mentioning that digital downloads are counted and speculating that planned Beatles download releases could dominate the charts). Another cited link probably said something similar but the article is no longer there. The UK Singles Chart article is probably based almost entirely on information published by The Official Charts Company itself, but would we question its validity?
Mirrors of the old Latvian Airplay Top article state that the chart was compiled at that time based on airplay data from 15 radio stations. The current Latvian Wikipedia article (alas lacking citations) states that 18 radio stations and TV channels are used: these are listed in a table and some have their own articles. Both these articles may be out of date: the website which publishes the chart lists 19 component charts currently used (since Dec 2008) for the Latvian Airplay Top, and 7 for the Latvian Music Chart.
I have found a variety of sources other than the ubiquitous blogs, YouTube videos and Wikipedia mirrors which refer to this chart. Since magazines and newspapers were suggested, I have a webpage from Diena, a Latvian newspaper
http://www.diena.lv/lat/search?where=1&query=Latvian+Airplay+Top&order_by_date=yes
and this appears to be another newspaper or magazine site
http://www.tvnet.lv/muzika/Video/demo/article.php?id=160091
CHART LIST WEBSITES:
These list both Latvian Airplay Top and Latvian Music Charts (all link to the same main chart pages at lanet.lv):
http://www.lanet.lv/misc/charts/ (evidently part of the same website which hosts current and archived Latvian charts)
http://www.alaskajim.com/charts/currentsingles/international/latvia.php main charts & some component charts (some links no longer work)
http://www.useyourears.co.uk/music-industry/music-charts/world-music-charts.php
http://www.btinternet.com/~Huggesey/charts.htm includes some component charts with links to radio station websites but not directly to the actual component charts
These list the Latvian Music Chart but not the Latvian Airplay Top:
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/music_directory/music_chart.php
http://www.vocalist.org.uk/music_charts.html
WEBSITES REFERRING TO LATVIAN AIRPLAY TOP POSITIONS
Mostly music artist webpages, some from artists' official sites, some third-party (a few examples: more exist)
http://www.a-ha.com/news/languages/english/archive/AHA_fullStory.aspx?PostID=1934
http://www.parishiltonsite.net/starsareblind.php
http://www.last.fm/music/Jenny+May
http://darrenhayes.eclub.lv/en/news.html#charts010506
http://muzictime.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/hips-dont-lie-shakira-feat-wyclef-jean/
http://www.brainstorm.lv/?mid=47&pname=main&lang=3&mid2=48
http://www.thisdayinrock.com/index.php/1997/02/
http://home.lanet.lv/~julita/sa/ this one is unofficial but mentions component charts
MISCELLANEOUS
http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/Latvia/Entertainment/Music/?o=a Yahoo directory listing Latvian Airplay Top 20
http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/pop_culture_randall.htm Academic paper (published by the University of Washington; presumably a good or at least acceptable example of a well-researched study) referencing the Latvian Music Chart.
Both these widely recognised charts appear to be legitimate and generally accepted as official Latvian charts. I propose that they should be removed from the Badcharts list and accepted as sources in Wikipedia articles. I would also like the Latvian Airplay Top article and its subpages restored. As for the Latvian Singles Chart article, perhaps it could be userfied to enable me to use its contents as the basis for a new article with a more accurate title if appropriate? Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 16:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to review these sources. I think it's quite obvious that the "Latvian Airplay Top 40" and "Latvian Airplay Top 50" do refer to same chart (which also publishes annual Top 500 charts). The very reason the previous Wikipedia article was Latvian Airplay Top not Latvian Airplay Top 40, Latvian Airplay Top 50 or whatever is that the number quoted can vary. You would assume that UK Top 40 and UK Top 75 are part of the same chart wouldn't you? (I don't know where you're from so apologies for choosing the UK charts as an example if you're not familiar with them: I just picked an example which is familiar to me for comparison).
http://www.tvnet.lv/muzika/Video/demo/article.php?id=160091
- "Of all the sources you have provided, this one comes the closest: it identifies a Latvian Airplay Top 50, and claims it is an airplay chart summarizing all Latvian radio stations. If it clearly identified what chart it was referencing, and the publisher, this would nearly do it."
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. It describes a track's performance in the Latvian Airplay Top 50 chart which it names and defines. Obviously naming the publisher too would be even better, but the article does clearly identify the chart.
That's actually more than can be said for the only cited reference on the UK Singles Chart article which makes any reference at all to how the chart is compiled. The cited article states:
Consequently, with singles and album charts now calculated by taking into account online music sales many have now predicted this will lead to a complete whitewash of both the Top 10 and the Top 40 as fans scramble to get their hands on all time classics like Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Revolver and hits such as Hey Jude, Penny Lane and Help!
It does not actually specify the name(s) of the chart(s) to which it refers, let alone provide details of their publishers.
With respect, are you seriously demanding a higher standard of verification for a chart representing a country about half the size of Scotland than for one representing the whole UK? Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 18:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
If you look at the chart website's archive page, you'll see it links to "Archives of all Latvian Airplay Top 20's, Top 30's, Top 40's and Top 50's (since April 3rd, 1994)". A look through the archives reveals that the change from Top 40 - Top 50 took place from Week 52, 2004 to Week 1, 2005. If you check the "this week" and "last week" positions, they match up: it is the same chart, expanded to include more positions. You will also find that the song mentioned in that newspaper website I cited was in the chart during this changeover, so it was in both the Latvian Airplay Top 40 and the Latvian Airplay Top 50 but these were not separate charts: the expansion explains why a source would refer to its success in the Latvian Airplay Top 40 when the official title of the chart in which it featured most recently was Latvian Airplay Top 50. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 21:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
OK, more Latvian sources so you might want to put them through Google Translate or something: they all name and briefly define the Latvian Airplay Top 50 or Top 40 chart.
http://www.platforma.lv/news/article.php?id=3542
http://www.ventspils.lv/NR/exeres/D0E5D26B-AACD-4EF6-998C-8DA0BD02CDB7
http://www.mikseris.lv/?doc=1394
Contains Mild Peril (
talk)
00:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I picked the ones which actually say something about what the chart is. When it was expanded from Latvian Airplay Top 40 to Latvian Airplay Top 50, the compilation method was also expanded to include a more comprehensive list of radio stations, so that's probably why it was mentioned in media reports from that era. There are certainly more recent articles which refer to the Latvian Airplay Top 50 without defining it. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 14:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit conflicted on this one. Contains Mild Peril has provided some useful links.
So, in summary, the sourcing is not great, but it isn't non-existent, either. It's apparent that reasonably reliable sources inside of Latvia refer to the chart. That goes a long way towards saying that it meets WP:RS.
Its stated methodology, combining data from multiple stations, isn't bad. They purposely distort the chart to emphasise foreign music, but every chart in the world is guilty of methodology distortion.
The main problem I see is that this still seems to be a hobby chart. It is compiled by Atis Klušs, who maintains a home page at http://www.lanet.lv/users/akluss/ . I'm not sure that we are in the position of saying that hobby charts are necessarily unacceptable, though. If it is referenced by Latvian news sources, does that pull it out of "hobby" status and into "as much as you can expect from a small country like Latvia" status?— Kww( talk) 18:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello there. I've always used ACharts for all my GA/FA after EveryHit's about us page was deemed not reliable at FAC. What's the official party line on using Zobbel and/or ChartStats? RB88 ( T) 15:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Everyhit should be ok if the song enters 1-40 though, no? Jayy008 ( talk) 17:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Seems that a Polish Singles Chart is making its way into articles using this website as the source ( 83.21.243.108 ( talk) is making these additions). Seeing as I have to leave to school in a few minutes, I really don't have time at the moment to get too deep into this, though I felt it was a good idea to bring this up to those who will be around while I'm at school. — ξ xplicit 16:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Why is the Polish Singles Chart a Wiki: Bad Chart??? Jayy008 ( talk) 17:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
{{helpme}} I apologize if the helpme template is unappropriate here.
The project page states, "Billboard component charts should not be used in the tables, unless the song fails to enter the main chart, but appears on an airplay or sales chart...."
Why is this? Billboard is a recognized industry leader. Any Billboard chart that contains the subject should be shown as a matter of course. To do otherwise is to put one's own spin or POV upon it as saying it is UNimportant. Doesn't that violate
WP:Npov. If Billboard deems to create a chart, why can't it be stated. It is verifiable and encyclopedic.
Iknow23 (
talk)
03:10, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
"Please could some people comment on my question re. Billboard, in [[Wikipedia talk:Record charts#PROPOSAL: Use all Billboard charts that relate to the subject.]]"
Chzz
►
03:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)Right, since the Pop 100 (a non-component to Hot 100) was dis-continued a few months the replacement (Pop songs a component to Hot 100) keep being deleting and putting back. So there is obviously mixed feelings on whether this should be allowed.
Although Pop Songs is a component to the Billboard Hot 100. Billboard itself calls Pop Songs/Mainstream Top 10 a direct replacement for the Pop 100.
So What is everyone's thoughts on the status of this chart on wikipedia? Jayy008 ( talk) 16:11, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Comment Yes it is but it's a direct replacement for the pop 100 which is why people keep adding it. I think if it's not allowed it should be listed on WK: Bad Charts as it's own chart and not because it's an airplay only chart. Jayy008 ( talk) 21:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
An issue highlighted by some recent discussions (e.g. concerning Latvian and Croatian charts) is that the current classifications of "GOODCHARTS" and "BADCHARTS" may be oversimplistic and in some cases it may be more helpful to have some sort of middle ground. AnemoneProjectors asked:
Just because the chart is may not be notable for an article on Wikipedia, does that automatically make it a "bad chart", even if it is the official airplay chart of Latvia? Just wondering.
which is a very pertinent question. The policy of blacklisting charts whose articles are deleted appears to have become established via precedent rather than proposal and discussion of the principle. Music charts may be a special case, but if every source cited on Wikipedia were required to fulfil the necessary criteria to merit its own article, we could be in a lot of trouble! Conversely, it might not necessarily follow that a chart with its own article is a "good" chart. There are also charts which have never been the subject of a Wikipedia article, whose status may be difficult to verify.
I propose that in place of the "BADCHARTS" list we should have the following categories:
BOGUS CHARTS: Charts which are known to be fake, or which have no known official status, affiliation with any professional organisation or recognition by
Reliable Sources. These should never be used as sources.
UNOFFICIAL CHARTS OR LISTS: This category would include things like single vendor charts, TV "countdowns" and other editorial or vote-based charts published by
reliable sources. These must not be used in chart tables or lists, but may be mentioned in article prose (and may contribute towards verifying notability of an article topic) provided they are appropriately sourced and the status of the chart or list is made clear (i.e. it will not be mistaken for an official chart).
QUESTIONABLE CHARTS Charts which appear legitimate but whose notability, verifiability and/or methodology is in question. This category is likely to include charts representing very small countries. These charts should not be added indiscriminately to discography tables, but may appropriately be used under certain certain circumstances, e.g.
Any thoughts? Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 06:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I think we more or less had consensus about limiting the numbers of charts in tables to prevent indiscriminate listing of all the minor charts, but as you've already noted that doesn't always work. I would still prefer a separate cateogry for questionable charts, but I would support a policy that charts from non-IFPI countries should only be used in special cases. I'm wary of making the wording to be too rigid lest we unintentionally exclude releases with a legitimate reason for mentioning that chart that we may overlook when formulating the policy. Could we go with something like "Charts from non- IFPI countries should not normally be included in tables, and should only be used in cases where there is a very specific reason, such as charts representing the home country of the artist or composer (this can mean country of origin, country of residence, official nationality or any country where the artist or composer has lived for a substantial part of their lives) or releases with a strong link to the country in question (e.g. Eurovision entries)." It's a little clumsy but it says what it needs to, and maybe we can work on the exact wording.
As to the issue of major single vendor charts, vote-based charts etc, I think the ruling should be that these must not be listed in the discography or chart performance sections of articles, nor in separate discography articles. I think it may occasionally be legitimate to mention something like that for example in a biographical section describing a band's rise to fame. For example, in cases where an editor questions the WP:Notability of some relatively obscure foreign artist or release, other editors should be free to include any reasonably verifiable evidence of notability. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 14:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Tbh JazzDalek, I can't actually think of a real example where referring to single-vendor or editorial/ vote-based "charts" would be appropriate either. The latter tend to consist of songs which have already entered major legitimate charts, so their inclusion in an article would probably be somewhat redundant and amount to trivia. Hypothetically, if a song or album which never achieved a high chart position later became regarded as a classic and topped a TV poll, this could be considered notable; and with the existence of so many charts whose archives appear to be unverifiable it's also possible that a single-vendor chart may sometimes be the only one for which data relating to a genuine hit are actually available.
OK, since my separate categories idea seems unlikely to gain consensus, I hope striking my original proposal and adding this here is OK - I don't know the proper protocol for amendments
Charts from non- IFPI countries should not normally be included in tables, and should only be used in cases where there is a very specific reason, such as charts representing the home country of the artist or composer (this can mean country of origin, country of residence, official nationality or any country where the artist or composer has lived for a substantial part of their lives) or releases with a strong link to the country in question (e.g. Eurovision entries).
By reducing indiscriminate inclusion of minor charts, we can allow for a slightly more lenient policy when it comes to considering such charts as reliable sources where appropriate. A chart's "goodchart" or "badchart" status should not necessarily depend on whether or not it is the subject of a current or deleted Wikipedia article, although factors considered during deletion processes may also be relevant in consideration of Reliable Source status. Contains Mild Peril ( talk) 19:58, 11 October 2009 (UTC)