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North8000 ( talk) 02:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
North8000 ( talk) 11:48, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
At the start of the year the Primary sources definition included the following:
This principle has been here for several years. This edit on 11 Jan by SlimVirgin altered it to: "Primary sources that have been reliably published" I can see that and I would support "Primary sources that have been published in a reliable source" but I do not support the total removal of this clause which happened with two more edits the first was this one by TimVickers on 22 January. I understand why the word reliable was removed as a next step because it was meaningless. However the removal of the concept that only primary sources published by a reliable publisher can be used is very important, because it is fundamental to stopping WP:OR particularly in historical articles. If people are free to rummage in unpublished historical archives, they may well be able to overthrow accepted history by digging up a document and quoting an extract from it without violating any other part of PSTS which this sentence was supposed to stop.
So I would like to put back into the policy "Primary sources that have been published in reliable sources," which takes care of TimVickers's comment on his removal "remove 'reliably published', horrible phrase."-- PBS ( talk) 13:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
BTW I came here to quote PSTS on this because I am looking at several articles were someone has either created a copyright violation or has written a piece of research using unpublished primary sources, (don't know which yet) but removing this clause does not help in stopping Wikipedia being used for OR. -- PBS ( talk) 13:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Not that I object to the text, but it does have to be read correctly. For example, if someone resolves a disagreement about a subject's birth date by actually driving to a county seat and looking up the birth certificate in the public records office, that's perfectly acceptable. The birth certificate is publicly available and so it satisfies WP:V, and the claim is purely descriptive, so it satisfies PSTS. It's a stretch to say that the birth certificate is "reliably published". But this may be a rare enough issue that it can be handled on a case by case basis. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 04:06, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Let me say it a different way. I picked birth certificates as an example because I know from experience that they are near the borderline for NOR. We do not permit someone to cite an unpublished diary they keep in their attic, and we do permit people to cite the New York Times. But public records are in between. What I said was, even if you reinsert "reliably published", it still leaves this sort of thing unclear (and unacknowledged) in the policy text. I know from experience that many people would say that a birth certificate on file in the county courthouse and freely available to the public is indeed "reliably published". — Carl ( CBM · talk) 13:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Quite true, but the same sloppy WP editors may pick the wrong John Smith in a secondary source too (assuming similar details and time periods). In fact, I have seen this myself, with a wikilink to the wrong guy, all in good (but sloppy) faith. So the bottom line is we need to use our common sense, be careful, and apply extra care, a lot more, when dealing with primary sources. Crum375 ( talk) 22:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Alternative_text_for_images#Guideline discussing the degree to which WP:OR, among other WP:V policies, applies to alt text. — Charles Edward ( Talk | Contribs) 02:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone have a problem with "our policy" being in red in the the primary/secondary sources section? I added it a while back to make it stand out, but Erik keeps removing it. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 05:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I have never seen color used in this manner before. Bold and italics is a perfectly sufficient way to emphasize the start of passages. At some point, you can only do so much to hammer the points home, and there is no precedent for color on a policy's page. I look at the revision, and the combination of bold and italics is enough. Erik ( talk) 14:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Colour should only be used if consideration in choosing the colours is made for the colour blind -- PBS ( talk) 20:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
It seem that we are supposed to evaluate the reliability of publishers and authors. Is this not a massive and original research project? Lumenos ( talk) 09:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I'll assume you are asking where sources are being evaluated the Wikipedia. This happens anywhere there is an article on something/someone, who is being used as a source, and where this article says something pertinent to the source's credibility. These are often found in "controversy" sections in articles on books, news organizations, websites, authors, publishers, governments, etc. (Or not an entire article but at least some mention that helps readers judge the the credibility of a source.) An example regarding a source that I guess would be fine for Wikipedia, would be in Associated Press / controversies. An example about an author that I would think would not be considered reliable, would be Rush_Hudson_Limbaugh#Claims_of_inaccuracy. Lumenos ( talk) 06:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm mainly proposing this process of choosing sources be more open and accessible by linking from articles, and that it be more organized and justified, by creating wiki articles outlining the arguments. This is being done many places in Wikipedia, it is just not formal policy.
It is fantastic that already we have citation tags that can easily link to articles about authors, publishers, etc, so that if a source is once thought to be reliable and is therefore included, at least any future discoveries of flaws in the source, could be made available in those articles. (It might be better if we could have some sort of indicator next to the reference number, in the article, showing how much the source has been evaluated and what its current ranking is.) Lumenos ( talk) 06:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
For controversial subjects we should always allow articles about any sources that are deemed reliable, and, in these articles, include the same evidence of their reliability that was used in the reliable sources debates. Also allowing articles for many prolific sources that are considered unreliable, that explain why they were judged "unreliable". If we can cite a "reliable source" for an argument used in a wp:RSN debate, it could/should be included in the article about the source. If we can't cite a "reliable source" for these arguments then "reliable source" is an example of WP: doublespeak (hypocrisy). When we can cite "reliable sources" who claim a source is reliable, then this is just WP: circular reasoning in WP: group think ;-). I think the only solution is to change the definition of a "reliable source", essentially allowing "original research". Lumenos ( talk) 06:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
The simplest first step for this would be to have a template, like you see at the top of the talk page of an article that was considered for deletion, but these templates would link to the corresponding wp:RSN debate. Maybe call these "Wikiproject_Sources" similar to the Wikiprojects at the top of this talk page. Do this for both "good" sources and "bad" sources. Lumenos ( talk) 06:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually, Lumenos' complaint fails much earlier in its formulation.
Lumenos, Wikipedia does not prohibit "original research" in the plain-English sense. It prohibits WP:Original research, a very specialized and more limited sense. You have fallen for the map-territory fallacy: The name of the policy is not the policy itself.
WP:OR -- the actual policy, not your unfounded assumptions based on the title -- directly says that selecting sources is not a violation of Wikipedia's policies. The exact words are, "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."
Note that this issue applies to many other subjects: Some wikt:notable subjects are not WP:Notable; some wikt:verifiable facts are not WP:Verifiable, and so forth. See WP:POLICY#Adherence: "the plain-English definition of the page's title or shortcut may be importantly different from the linked page."
If you can explain to me how "collecting and organizing material from existing sources...is encouraged" somehow amounts to "collecting and organizing material from existing sources...is prohibited as WP:Original research", then we'll talk, but I think you should give this up, because your premise is fatally flawed.
As for your solution: Aside from the fact that it's massive overkill for a problem affecting a tiny number of sources in a small number of articles, and that what makes a source reliable by our definition includes how it is used (so this why-I-picked-this-source essay would have to be updated with every round of revision), we're still trying to get all of our editors to name their sources at all, remember? People who don't quite bother pasting in a bare URL are highly unlikely to write an essay on why they selected a given source. The community is extremely unlikely to accept any such proposal. If you want to establish this, though, I suggest that you start providing model essays for every source that you use. Just place them on the article's talk pages. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
In this section I'm clipping quotes from WhatamIdoing post dated 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC) so that I can respond to specific statements. Lumenos ( talk) 04:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
As for your solution: Aside from the fact that it's massive overkill for a problem affecting a tiny number of sources in a small number of articles[...] quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Lumenos, Wikipedia does not prohibit "original research" in the plain-English sense. It prohibits WP:Original research, a very specialized and more limited sense. You have fallen for the map-territory fallacy: The name of the policy is not the policy itself. quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
"If you can explain to me how "collecting and organizing material from existing sources...is encouraged" somehow amounts to "collecting and organizing material from existing sources...is prohibited as WP:Original research", then we'll talk, but I think you should give this up, because your premise is fatally flawed. " quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
[...]we're still trying to get all of our editors to name their sources at all, remember? People who don't quite bother pasting in a bare URL are highly unlikely to write an essay on why they selected a given source. The community is extremely unlikely to accept any such proposal.[...] quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Note that this issue applies to many other subjects: Some wikt:notable subjects are not WP:Notable; some wikt:verifiable facts are not WP:Verifiable, and so forth. See WP:POLICY#Adherence: "the plain-English definition of the page's title or shortcut may be importantly different from the linked page." quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
People who don't quite bother pasting in a bare URL are highly unlikely to write an essay on why they selected a given source. The community is extremely unlikely to accept any such proposal. If you want to establish this, though, I suggest that you start providing model essays for every source that you use. Just place them on the article's talk pages. quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a proposal for a WikiProject to be named "WikiProject Sources". (I may copy this somewhere else, but I'm putting it here for now, as it is a continuation of this line of thought.) Lumenos ( talk) 18:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The first template would be for talk pages, in the same WikiProjectBannerShell as the WikiProjects templates on this page. Any editor could put the template on the talk page of any article about a potential source that is "reliable", "unreliable", "of unknown reliability", etc. It would have one link to a general description of the WikiProject and a second link to a subpage of the article. The subpage would be permanent place to link to any wp:RSN discussions of the source and create a wikified "document" about any evidence regarding the reliability of the source. Any evidence about the reliability of a source, which is itself based on a "wp:reliable source" could be incorporated into the article. Lumenos ( talk) 18:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
This is an issue with notability, and I'm trying to reconcile what, to mean, appears to be a significant gap between the definitions of primary and secondary sources.
Imagine there is a book, X. That book wins a notable award, along with other books during a given event. A major newspaper (unaffiliated with the book or the award) publishes an article that simply announces the books, including X, that won that award at that event and goes into no other details on the book itself.
With respect to the book X, what is the nature - primary or secondary - of the newspaper article?
As per what is right now listed, it doesn't come off as primary, since the newspaper is removed from the involvement of the book or award. Nor at the same time it doesn't appear secondary, since it is simply reporting a fact and not attempting deeper analysis or the like of the award (it is only the case that it is at least one step removed from the actual book). And it certainly doesn't seem to be a tertiary source since it is not a summary of other sources.
This gap, to me, is where many "news reporting" can fall into, and needless to say, can lead to problems in notability discussion. I think it would be of significant help in terms of notability issues if we can provide strong clarity - either way - of where these types of articles would fall into in such cases. (I know that there are times the same article can be primary for one topic and secondary for the next, so I'm not looking for specifically what news articles fall into, just looking at the type of content that is involved such as the example above). -- MASEM ( t) 22:43, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Masem asked: With respect to the book X, what is the nature - primary or secondary - of the newspaper article?
Because the newspaper made no transformation of the information, on the historiographical primary source / secondary source distinction, it is a primary source.
One could perhaps argue that by selecting the information, the newspaper is implying that the award is more significant than other awards. This assumes that the newspaper applies some measure, that it is not random, and that it doesn’t report every award. This is a weak argument for a trivial amount of secondary source material. However, with regard to WP:N, the reporting of the award can be taken as objective evidence of notability. Independent secondary sources are not the only sources of objective evidence of notability, they are just the easiest and most common.
A primary source does not need to be not one step removed. My use of a photocopier 100 years later on the other side of the planet does not convert a primary source into a secondary source, per standard historiographical usage. A journalist or antique collector might disagree, but we are not journalists or antiques collectors.
I disagree with SlimVirgin’s assertions and logic. Further, I point out that she is quoting text from the policy that she fights hard to prevent improvement, and which is not to be found in any external reputable source. True, secondary sources don’t need “analysis”, but they do require some kind of transformative addition, whether it is satire, ridicule, contextualisation, or nearly anything else that is the product of the author of the secondary source The “second-hand account” = “secondary source” is an old but false wikipedia perversion. I guess that it relates to journalistic or scientific usage of “primary source”, where it means “original source”. I am aware of such usage, but note that I have never seen people who use it so make any use of the term “secondary source”. This idea of “second-hand account” has more to do with our usage of “independent source” than it does with secondary source, which can be read in full by following the link. SlimVirgin is committed to her view, but it is not the historiographical usage that is appropriate for timeless encyclopedia.
The truth with newspaper articles is that they are usage dependent, but there is a quick and easy way to roughly differentiate. If the article is a “story”, it is probably a secondary source. The article is a “report”, it is probably a “primary source”. Masem’s original question appears to be describing a report.
My view for what should change here is that we should stop redefining “secondary source” as ‘’always’’ including newspapers, which we do so that they automatically meet the criteria of WP:N, but explicitly acknowledge that multiple independent newspaper articles (avoiding “report” & “story”) are sufficient evidence of notability of the subject of the articles, regardless of the primary/secondary distinction. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 06:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Something clearer? How about
Sometimes it is difficult to decide if a particular source is primary or secondary. Maybe you are pretty sure that it is primary but someone else is arguing that it is secondary. On these occasions, it is best to remember that this is a guideline on how to apply other policies and guidelines, most importantly the policy no original research and the guideline on notability. Don't worry too much if the source is primary or secondary. If the issue is notability, look at the general notability guideline and any area-specific guidelines such as WP:Notability (books). In the case of the general notability guideline, although it mentions secondary sources as part of the explanation, it more prominently states that sources should be independent of the subject. Think about whether the source is independent of the subject.
I think that deals with it quite effectively. Yaris678 ( talk) 20:58, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Let me offer how I have always used PSTS as a possible discussion point. To me, every source can be easily qualified into two - possibly three - axes (there's also the reliability measure, but that's less objective than these three axes so I'm not worried about it here):
This language is far from perfect, but hopefully its understood why this makes it easier to identify sources. With this, most newspaper articles (routine coverage) become independent third-party primary sources, such as the example above. There's still a bit of fuzziness, and you still have the problem that an article can be one type of source for one topic and another type for a different topic - eg you cannot immediately characterize all articles of a given type into one bin, but that's something we're not able to get around. -- MASEM ( t) 14:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Masem, I think you have it pretty right. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
14:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Masem's definition, "Tertiary sources are non-transformative works based on summarizing other primary, secondary, and tertiary sources", I find striking. I have never seen such a definition of tertiary source before, but it makes so much sense. So many works are secondary works based only on previous secondary works, but are not what anyone calls a "tertiary source" The definition works very well for Wikipedia. We do not want our editors including their own commentary (or other transformation) on existing sources. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Are we allowed to advance positions in proportion to the extent that most people would consider them truthful? 99.56.137.254 ( talk) 11:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Mainspace: Yes, but get the position reliably published before even mentioning it here, and then declare your
WP:COI.
Project space/User space: You may write essays relevant to the project. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
23:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
At WP:NOR#Routine calculations, I had added: "However, this does not condone guessing someone's year of birth in a WP:BLP article," because giving someone an erroneous year of birth can have consequences in real life. However, User:Orderinchaos reverted this, without giving any reason. / Pieter Kuiper ( talk) 15:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I propose that we replace the NOR standard with a 'Original Research Only' standard. Any takers? Ortho rhombic, 21:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, half of Wikipedia is OR. Time to face reality. North8000 ( talk) 00:31, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I think you are missing the point. The important issue is that rules should be universaly enforced or discarded. Otherwise, the rules may be enforced selectively to promote an someone's personal agenda. 12.72.74.74 ( talk) 17:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
North, please read our content policies, such as WP:NOR, which says, "Wikipedia is a tertiary source", and WP:V which says, "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." What this means is that we don't use this site to post our own personal knowledge, but to report on what verifiable and reliable sources have published about a given topic. You ask what to do about material in an article which is "uncited", and the answer is simple: if it's challenged, likely to be challenged, or a quotation, and there is no reliable source cited for it, it should be removed. Crum375 ( talk) 17:23, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
"All of Wikipedia content is either plagiarism or original research!" -- OP
I am not sure if this has been discussed or addressed somewhere, or if this page is the best venue, but here goes. Do we have a policy about wiki-linking words inside quotes? The pro is that it can provide readers with Wikipedia-based clarification of unfamiliar terms mentioned in the quote. The con is that the link could end up distorting the quote, either intentionally or inadvertently, since Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and in any case may not be what the source intended or meant. In some cases, doing this could effectively be putting words into the source's mouth, with potential violation of WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, among others. Thoughts? Crum375 ( talk) 13:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
The people who are doing this are everyone, just about, because there is no policy which says we shouldn't. And sofixit does not apply here — it's a project-wide issue: we need to decide what the policy is, and then stick to it. Crum375 ( talk) 03:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
There is a proposal to promote this. 174.3.113.245 ( talk) 06:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
almost-instinct says on Wikipedia_talk:Quotations#Unable_To_Post: "For the biogs sections I chose quotes that had some relevence to that section of Larkin's life. The other quotes are from popular poems and can stand alone."
We already have an article listing of Philip Larkin's Poems.
His choice of quotes is original research. Can we get more feedback? 96.52.92.106 ( talk) 03:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Are you sure you wanted to remove the bullets from the synth section? It's not clear why you removed them now since they have been in the section for awhile. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 17:49, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Much of the lead and sources section are a repetition of the verifiability policy. This duplication confuses and dilutes the principal of No original research.
I suggest that most of the duplication be moved to the Related policies - Verifiability section or removed from this policy.-- SaskatchewanSenator ( talk) 08:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Reliable sources
Main page: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources See also: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Reliable sources
Material for which no reliable source can be found is considered original research. The only way to establish that your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains that same material. Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context or to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research; see below.
Self-published material, whether on paper or online, is generally not regarded as reliable, but see the discussion of self-published sources for exceptions.
If you are able to discover something new, Wikipedia is not the place to premiere such a discovery. Once your discovery has been published in a reliable source, it may be referenced.
Related policies
Verifiability Main page: Wikipedia:Verifiability
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by a reliable source.
In general the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny given to checking facts, analyzing legal issues and scrutinizing evidence and arguments, the more reliable the publication.
The No original research policy and the verifiability policy reinforce each other by requiring that only assertions, theories, opinions, and arguments that have already been published in a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia. -- SaskatchewanSenator ( talk) 07:10, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I completely agree with Jimbo's take on this policy... but I don't think we should use it as our nutshell (see Scott's most recent edit). The nutshell we have had for a while sums up the policy well. We should certainly discuss before we change it. Blueboar ( talk) 14:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Many people have been troubled by the policy of WP:SYN, to reject synthesis of reliable sources to promote an unpublished, so-called "conclusion". After years of consideration, I have finally pinpointed the problem: the policy of WP:Synthesis allows people to assume untrue conclusions which can form the basis of 2 major logical fallacies:
In particular, when people claim the sources had stated A & B leading to an "implied conclusion" C, that actually empowers the assumption that C is the intended conclusion. Anyone can claim the nature of C, because it need not be stated (big mistake), and thus, C is wide-open to interpretation, as being the assumed, unspoken conclusion. Hence, by allowing any potential assumption, that allowance has opened the door to claiming a false premise, as a false basic assumption to argue against the article's text. By using the logical fallacy of argument from false premises, then anything can be proven; therefore WP:SYN could be legitimately used to prove that almost any text should be removed from an article. For example, consider the following extreme, but legitimate case:
Unfortunately, that implied conclusion cannot be rejected (because any unspoken conclusion is allowed by WP:SYN), and hence, quite possibly, arguing from the false premise of an empty lake in 2 years, then perhaps many people would die. Result: per WP:SYN, those 2 facts must be deleted from the article, as the complaint is indeed valid, per policy, for removing that text. The policy has failed because of a critical major mistake: anyone can assume almost any conclusion. Example:
A similar example:
Once again, despite how twisted or rabid the conclusion, those are indeed valid reasons to completely remove the related text.
A related, but more subtle, fallacy would be to substitute a "similar, unspoken conclusion" to be refuted, by condemning that nearby-conclusion using a strawman fallacy. Simply put: a Wikipedia policy must not reject anything based on a user's own assumptions. All policies must deal with what is actually written in an article ("put it in writing"), and not prosecute a " pre-crime" action as if it were based on hard evidence. Absolutely nothing based on assumption should be the basis to reject text: once unbounded assumptions are allowed, then anyone can validly do anything to an article. People often use WP:SYN to remove questionable text. However, because of allowing false premises (and subtle straw man fallacies), the failed WP:SYN policy can also be used by any desperate or frantic person to slant or censor any article, and thus it has been.
Recommendation: Issue a major retraction of WP:SYN, and issue a meta-policy that prohibits any future rejection of text based on a user's mere assumptions, rather than tangible hard evidence, to be compared against policy standards. - Wikid77 01:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Scott, I think you are very confused about what WP is about. Our goal is to summarize in our own words what others have published about a topic, not to add any new information, interpretation or implication. If any material is challenged or likely to be challenged, it needs a direct citation. Nothing needs to be slashed or burned, unless it's novel information or a novel interpretation not directly backed up by reliable sources. Crum375 ( talk) 15:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
The issue here is that "unpublished" is not quite the right word. Most of our articles contain only previously unpublished sentences, unless they are copyright violations. Really, WP:SYN asks us to assess whether the claims made by an article (implicit or explicit) are part of the overall picture of the subject that is given by the literature. This isn't a black-or-white question, because it depends both on the literal content of the claims being made and on their connotation.
For an example of how these are related, if we take a newspaper story about "A-Rod" and rephrase its claims to be about "Alex Rodriguez", this is fine even it synthesizes two sources (one for the claim about A-rod, another for the fact that A-rod and Alex Rodriguez are the same person). On the other hand, if we randomly replace "Jesus Christ" with "Jesus of Nazareth" in various religion articles in the same way, we will quickly run into problems.
The exact dividing line for which syntheses are OK is difficult to pin down exactly. It takes a broad reading of the literature to assess what the overall narrative about the topic at hand actually contains. However, the spirit of the policy is correct that we should not add claims to articles that materially change or extend the narrative from the literature. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 16:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
When Galileo started collecting and reporting various facts about the movements of the planets, and indicated the Earth could revolve around the Sun, he was placed under house-arrest and commanded not to write ("Wikipedia articles") in the common language of the people ("Italian Wikipedia") about those dangerous sourced facts, to be considered as a whole. Some Church officials even told Galileo that his ideas seemed correct, but the local people would not be able to handle his ideas in "their little minds", so Galileo's sourced data had to be withheld, or the world of the little people would erupt into chaos.
As the record shows, after some years, Galileo did die while still under house arrest; however, he managed to smuggle numerous chapters, to the outside world, written in common Italian, so that many people could understand and copy (GFDL) his writings about the planets. From those writings, Galileo became the Father of Modern Physics. Censorship is censorship, and it is very difficult to keep in check. In fact, where excess censorship exists, then people often find the means to publish sourced text in alternative ways.
In the example, above, about the officials that recommended women could be stationed in submarines, I noted only two issues: 1. the officials had no submarine training, having never served in submarines; and 2. they were all men. Immediately, conclusions were drawn, "Arrgh! It's clearly WP:SYN, as 'implicitly claiming' those officials were not qualified to decide a woman's role in submarines". However, suppose in the next chapter, which wiki-Galileo would smuggle into the article, other facts were then revealed. Instead of submarine training, all those officials had trained for years with underground bunkers where men and women were both assigned for months, remaining inside those bunkers for long multi-month periods. Plus, all those male officials had wives and daughters who were also interviewed and said from their experiences, living together, that they, as women, shared the same views as the men. "Call the new Pope!" Instead, the actual result is that the article would have informed the world that experience in some underground bunkers relates to submarine duty, and men can have discussed issues with women, for their opinions. So now, the "assumed conclusion" is realized as untrue ("a false premise" - hint, hint, hint) of a nefarious condemnation of the officials as "unqualified to decide about women on submarines". How could experienced Wikipedia editors have reached such a horrendously incorrect "assumed conclusion" that totally contradicts the other data collected about the situation? Because, in general, unless the conclusion is stated ("put it in writing"), then the danger is the pre-censoring of sourced text, based on half-baked, half-assumed ideas of what intelligent people really think. Never assume people have the same level of intellect as you. As history recorded, 350 years after Galileo, a new Pope John Paul II reversed the Church policy, and decided that Galileo was correct in writing about those ideas. The ideas that Galileo had written, 350 years earlier, did not cause the "little people" to scream in confusion and destroy the Church. It is never too late to correct a bad policy, even after 350 wiki-years. WP:SYN is the Galileo-persecution fallacy, that pre-censors sourced text, based on assumed dangers, not based on reality. - Wikid77 ( talk) 11:48, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Let's review, Galileo, one more time. Who had the original conclusions? It was the Church, who concluded that Galileo, by publishing old ideas in Italian (not Latin), would discredit Church doctrine among Italian-speaking commoners. Again, who wrote the old ideas? Correct, it was Galileo, as he wrote about prior data that indicated the Earth revolved around the Sun. Copernicus (from Poland) had written about these ideas of a Heliocentric system. Plus, the Church had reviewed these ideas, published, if you will, within the clergy. However, the Church would not let Galileo write such (old) ideas in Italian, for the masses. Why did the Church want to suppress those OLD ideas? The Church had invented, as an assumed original conclusion, that Galileo publishing old ideas (from rare sources) was intending to "advance the cause" that Church doctrine was wrong and the Church would be destroyed. Galileo, later, did smuggle Italian writings, out of his residence. Also, many people learned about a Sun-centred Solar System, but the Church was not destroyed. So, again, where was the original research? There was NONE. Instead, the Church imagined or invented or WP:SYNed a bogus conclusion, not stated (but implied, by them) that Galileo's writing would discredit and ruin the Church. There was no original research, but the Church had invented original conclusions (not stated) as original fears which they used to arrest and censor Galileo. Similarly, WP:SYN can be used to censor text, when there is no original research, at all, but merely original fears of some original conclusion which does not really exist. Hence, WP:SYN can be used to censor non-original research. Thus, that absurd reality proves that WP:SYN is a failed policy, by reductio ad absurdum (an idea reduced into an absurd conclusion). WP:SYN, intended to block original research, can block the non-original. Instead, WP:SYN should require conclusions to be explicitly stated before deletion; any imagined conclusions are merely a matter of one-sided text which lacks NPOV balance, where other viewpoints could be added to downplay the feared conclusion. Text should NOT be removed simply because someone fears an unstated conclusion. Instead, that situation is considered "unbalanced for NPOV" but not a case of original research. - Wikid77 ( talk) 06:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Wikid77 for pointing out that the current version of WP:SYN actually advocates the deletion of properly cited references, simply because they might cause people to learn something new. This seems to me to be against the basic spirit of Wikipedia. Wasn't Wikipedia designed to be something new where new ideas could be presented together in a new way? Still, I think there is something about WP:SYN that is worth saving. Based on some of your comments on my talk page, I have now updated my proposed revision of WP:SYN to incorporate most of your thoughts and suggestions. I think my April 15 draft of the proposed WP:SYN is much shorter, and I hope improved. If you get a chance, please look at it at: April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN, and let me know what you think. Thanks. Scott P. ( talk) 14:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I have read it... I still reject it. It is overly complicated and unclear. It is fundamentally flawed as to what it allows. It can easily be abused by POV pushers. Need I go on? Blueboar ( talk) 16:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with User:Scottperry's assessment, and the problem is that WP:SYN is fatally flawed to let people's original fears delete sourced text, as he stated, "lest someone might accidentally have a fresh thought". It does seem mediaeval, or definitely like the Dark Ages, in fearing some unknown article sorcery as speaking dangerous words, so have their wiki-tongues pulled out (!). However, it's not the Wikipedia people who are awry, but rather, a lack of wiki-education for coping with new ideas. Scottperry's instinctive understanding of Wikipedia seems fundamentally correct: "Wikipedia is the sum of all knowledge" including past, very ancient, and brand new, but the problem has been the "verifiability" aspect: for that reason, it is often difficult to post new ideas and defend them as "verifiable" (due to a lack of quick sources), but the same can be said of very ancient ideas from texts whose translation might not be easily obtained. We get around the "this-aint-the-news" fears by anticipating news reports, such as an earthquake or celebrity death, where people were collecting data about common earthquake regions, or someone's illness and dangerous habits. As you suspected, when "the word" gets out to the people, then numerous readers descend upon Wikipedia to find the latest sourced information about a topic. Pageviews about a celebrity or scientific topic might skyrocket to 300x times the typical daily pageviews. When a celebrity gets arrested, or an ancient tomb is opened, or water is discovered on Mars, then masses of people come to Wikipedia, and quite often, they find what they wanted. You have triggered an interesting line of discussion: methods to adjust WP policies so we can streamline the addition of new reports into the existing articles and give people the encyclopedic (all-around, old+new) answers they seek. Plus, here's a core problem: when the masses come to Wikipedia and DON'T find the answers they seek, then typically, some particular people have been actively censoring text to conceal that information. With 12 million users, when something is NOT there, it typically hasn't been "overlooked" but rather, purposely omitted from Wikipedia. Hence, several policies need to be adjusted to allow all verifiable information to be properly reported, while still protecting privacy and other concerns. For WP:SYN, I again, advocate: only novel conclusions stated in writing should be censored as "original research" while facts that support some unpopular, feared conclusion should not be removed. Wikipedia should not be the thought-police which prevents people from thinking in "scary" ways. I realize that concept might be difficult to understand, after years of removing sourced text, but consider how many times Ann Sullivan had to hand-sign "W-A-T-E-R" in Jimbo's Alabama, before Hellen Keller understood why the concept mattered at the water pump. - Wikid77 ( talk) 23:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't care if the exact version of our proposed major revision to WP:SYN at April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN is accepted verbatim or not. It is the spirit of our proposed changes to WP:SYN that I am behind. For those editors who may not have yet had enough time to wade through the specific details of the new proposal, please let me summarize here the 'spirit of the changes' in synopsis form:
Thanks, Scott P. ( talk) 12:23, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
A fundamental problem, in policy
WP:SYN, is the empowering of original conclusions which might not be, at all, what the author of the text was even thinking. The policy empowers people to reject (censor) sourced text, if they can assume that an original conclusion is being implied to "advance a cause". Unless such conclusions are actually stated in an article ("put it in writing"), then the author's intent is wide open to rampant speculation. Even popular culture is replete with adages that warn of multiple interpretations of the same events: "One man's trash is another man's treasure" or "One man's rebel is another's
freedom fighter" or "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Hence, the problem, with
WP:SYN, is not a matter of rocket science: the problem is, quite simply, that someone can claim an original conclusion when the author of the text held a different view (trash v. treasure).
Unless the supposed "original" opinion is actually stated, in writing, then WP:SYN can be used to pre-censor sourced text, based on claiming some, invented original conclusion that the author did not intend. The author is not allowed to include original research, but the censor is allowed to remove text based on assumed "original conclusions". Is there still anyone who cannot grasp the problem with that policy? A conclusion to be censored must be explicitly stated in an article. Any other situation is merely an incomplete view, as a NPOV imbalance, where the text might seem to indicate a particular conclusion, but if more text were added, then the NPOV balance could shift to a more neutral position. The result is not to censor by WP:SYN but rather, to add more text to achieve an NPOV neutral converage. WP:SYN must insist that censorship be used to remove actual text stating a novel conclusion, rather than sourced text presenting a one-sided view (in someone's opinion of one-sided). -
Wikid77 (
talk)
04:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
In re-reading policy WP:SYN, I analyzed the specific usage of 2 examples in that policy, as to possibly implying some unsourced conclusion. I was surprised to learn, in fact, that there is a real connection, implying a WP:BLP violation:
At first, I thought that text couldn't really imply some unstated conclusion, but then I decided to check a Google search, and "Aha!" I found 168,000 matches for "United Nations" plus " plagiarism". However, it gets even more sinister: there is a WP article titled " List of plagiarism controversies" which specifically states, "unabashed plagiarism, with lengthy passages of United Nations reports". I know it can't be proven to be, intentionally, accusing that author of plagiarism. However, the evidence is overwhelming: there is A + B, which leads to C (plagiarism of United Nations documents), where that connection is even written on Wikipedia, itself. Perhaps the people who re-wrote WP:SYN to have those 2 examples thought it would be okay, as an inside joke, if the policy actually had tricked people into accepting the policy as mere policy, rather than a veiled attempt to lead people to conclude, yes, the man did commit plagiarism of UN texts (but did he actually, according to valid sources?). Because the policy explicitly states that people could conclude "C" (if they so choose, like it's really a choice in the policy), then the policy itself seems to be clearly trying to plant the seeds of the accusation, without listing reliable sources which could confirm the guilt or innocence of people disguised as so-called "Smith" or "Jones" as if that wasn't a transparent attack on the real author, as a WP:BLP insinuation. Policy WP:SYN needs to be deleted or re-worded to avoid that unsourced BLP text, soon. Perhaps next time, the examples could be about 2 fictional guys debating on Mars and the "Intergalactic Peace Federation" or such, not trying to sneak an unsourced real-world conclusion into the policy. If only WP:SYN had not advised to BEWARE implied conclusions, then readers would be free to ignore any inferred conclusions; however, since the policy clearly states to beware any implied conclusions, then it self-validates those conclusions as being the intended meaning. It's like a guy telling a police officer, "There's a handgun in my backpack, or NOT", so now, the officer has no choice: he must arrest that guy and search the backpack (per policies about implied suspicion). A policy cannot warn people to fear implied conclusions, and then imply an author plagiarized UN documents. Per policy, WP:BLP, such a conclusion must be backed by a source footnote, rather than just verifiable in common sources. Since the names are disguised as "Smith" and "Jones" then it cannot be properly footnoted, and that text should be deleted as a WP:SYN synthesis claiming he plagiarized United Nations documents. Am I assuming all these implied conclusions correctly? Does anyone know the real names? - Wikid77 09:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Before re-writing the WP:SYN policy to become more effective, and less likely for abuse, then several problems need to be avoided. I have begun the following list (feel free to insert more entries, tagged with your user-signature):
Those are some of the major issues I've detected. Please feel free to insert more entries (in the list immediately above), tagged with your user-signature in brackets "[xxx]". Otherwise, continue the discussion below. - Wikid77 ( talk) 12:16, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I checked the history of WP:SYN, and it seems that the controversial examples about the United Nations were added, and then heavily disputed, circa 2 July 2009. Despite opening the door to rejecting an implied-conclusion synthesis (that the UN was a failure), that example also asked the user to believe that, despite decades of debates about perceived UN failures, no source ever claimed the UN was a failure because wars are still fought (hard to accept no source about that). Instead, let's use a hypothetical example, without awakening those success-of-the-UN debates. Consider a lawnmower example, based on two hypothetical witness sources "[1]" & "[2]":
Using the lawnmower example (rather than the U.N.), the issue is better illustrated, especially since the conclusion definitely seems highly original, and meanwhile, few people would believe the conclusion is valid, despite the mower running 2 minutes. Also, there is no connection to the hot-topic issue about politics of the United Nations, just a mere hypothetical case with a suspicious conclusion "stated in writing". I suggest using that lawnmower example as a better example of WP:SYN. - Wikid77 13:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
OK SlimVirgin, what first got me over here to WP:NOR was this: on April 12, over at the Hutaree article I had two citations that I considered to be neutrally worded and properly referenced, yet they were deleted by other users as WP:SYN. Please see: an example of a bad deletion of good citations under current wp-syn. The explanation given by the other editors was that these references were by definition OR. I thought to myself, 'How can a neutrally worded properly referenced citation be considered OR?' I've been editing here since practically the beginning of Wikipedia, and I've never seen any similar logic used before by a Wikipedia editor for a deletion. I decided to go to WP:NOR to see if there have been any recent significant policy changes, and sure enough, there was one.
Beginning last summer, WP:SYN first began to concern itself not only with the accuracy and textual neutrality of a citation, but also with the possible implications of a citation. It seemed to me that there was some confusion in the writing of WP:SYN that enabled these authors to misunderstand the intention of WP:SYN. People were confusing the need to have neutrally and fairly written conclusions in Wikipedia with a perceived need to prevent people from possibly thinking new thoughts after merely reading a neutrally and fairly written citation. Please take a look at this edit and tell me what you think of it. Scott P. ( talk) 14:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Amongst some of the leadership of the "Christian far right", there is some tentative and qualified support of the actions taken by the Hutaree. The rationale given for such support is the apparent belief that the teachings of Jesus would have advocated and justified the killing of random local police officers, if such officers supported a government that abused its power, and which had fired the first shot. Such a 'first shot' is believed by them to possibly have already been fired in what is described by them as an armed conflict apparently already under way between their people and the US government. [20] However, the Biblical Jesus "consistently opposed violence". [21] During the first three centuries of the Christian Era, the teachings of the early Church ruled out violence as an option, even in self-defense. [22]
Scott Perry came to public attention in April 2010 when he won the World Chess Championship. However, according to the lobby group, Mothers against Chess, chess is played only by isolated geek types who should be focused instead on getting a real job.
Scott P., In the Hutaree example that you gave, note the edit summary for the main reason for the deletion, "removing two sentences based on sources that do not discuss Hutaree per WP:NOR, see talk for explanation". This reason for the deletion is supported by the lead of WP:NOR and here is the relevant excerpt, "To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the material as presented."
If a reliable source was provided that made those statements while discussing Hutaree, it would have been demonstrated that original research was not added. Instead, only the editor made the connection between the topic Hutaree and these statements by placing them in the Hutaree article, and thus they were deleted. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 15:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Scott, let me add a point to Bob's reply. You seem to think that we need a "counter argument" to your addition of an unsourced implication or conclusion. This is fundamentally wrong. The core principle of WP:V and WP:NOR is that the burden of finding a source is on the person adding the material, not the one removing it. So if you want to add a conclusion or implication that Hutraree are not good Christians, you need to find a source which directly says it, and not ask your fellow editors to "find a counter-argument". We don't "argue" here: we find reliable sources which directly support what we write. Crum375 ( talk) 16:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
To reply to your point about cakes, if you find a source about "baked goods", and there is no contention about the point you are making, it could be acceptable for cakes. But once there is contention, you must find a direct source which refers directly to cakes. This is part of our requirement for reliable sources in general: you need to supply a direct source if the material you add is challenged or likely to be challenged. Crum375 ( talk) 16:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
All the flurry of recent discussions stems from the massive implications of the logical fallacies inherent in the WP:SYN policy fiasco. There is no end to the problems it will cause, by fearing implied conclusions. Let me clarify again: when any chain of reasoning begins as an "argument from false premises" then it is common knowledge, that those those false premises can be used to prove anything. This is a fundamental concept in " sentential logic" or " predicate logic". A false premise can be used, while following correct reasoning, to "prove" that 1 = 0, or black is white, or right is wrong, or 2 = -2, 3 = -3, 4 = -4,... 10,000 = -10,000, etc. When I noted "confusion from 10,000 problems with WP:SYN" that was just a placeholder number to indicate infinite problems, in all those article disputes, which stem from basing a policy on the false premise that someone might fear an imagined conclusion (a "false premise") is being implied by mixing sourced text from 2 sources. Do you realize that means most articles can only be based on a single source? Naturally, hundreds of people have been derailed by this WP:SYN policy confusion. Plus, combine that confusion, with other problems in the WP:SYN policy, and the problems just spread in all directions. Again, I have emphasized, above, that no person with worldly experience will stomach those United Nations examples, with the idea of the UN denoted as a failure (or success) as being an "original idea" not found in a source. Here's an "original" idea: go inside the UN and try those examples! One source even noted, over the top, that most wars are conducted by UN member nations!!! If you re-read the above discussions, it is clear that policy WP:SYN has more than 7 major disconnects with reality. Perhaps what is making these discussions so difficult, to absorb all at once, is the fact that all the problems in WP:SYN are being exposed in a massive revelation of all the failed ideas that it contains, in every facet. WP:SYN is a Ball of Confusion, with numerous problems all twisted together. We have not even begun to elaborate on all the ideas presented above. - Wikid77 00:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
To all of those who have shown an interest in this dialogue about OR. I just found this historical nugget, that I thought you might find interesting. The actual kernel of OR. Everyone here these days seems to be labeling anything that they don't agree with as OR and instantly deleting it.
Here is what the original entry in the article about OR said. It was entered on December 21st, 2003 and it is a direct quote by Jimbo Wales:
If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.
If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides.
If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research.
Now the idea of OR seems to have been so significantly altered, that we are sometimes no longer permitting others to publish the actual majority view, as under the new WP:SYN policy, we are now sometimes labeling even the majority view as OR. Witness the citation about the early Christian church's policies towards advocating violence, which was promptly labeled as OR, and deleted, despite the fact that it was clearly the majority view, and it possibly does not even have a significant minority disagreeing with it.
I ask, "Is the current WP:SYN policy of labeling even a majority view as OR and promptly deleting it... is this new WP:SYN policy harmonious with Jimbo Wales' view of OR?" Or are his views now considered as OR too?
Please, somebody, anybody... please just finally carefully read the proposed WP:SYN revision and give me a single example of how it would be less harmonious with Wales' definition of OR than this new recently installed WP:SYN policy is. The proposed revision can be found at: April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN.
Thanks, Scott P. ( talk) 20:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
If the viewpoint is found in reliable sources it is not WP:SYN.-- SaskatchewanSenator ( talk) 21:03, 16 April 2010 (UTC)If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.
I think that the first example in WP:SYNTH may have given Scott the wrong impression that Synth is only or mainly about unstated conclusions. I concluded this from the lead sentence in Scott's April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN. I think he got this wrong impression because we failed to put a simple example of Synth with a stated conclusion as the first example in the section. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 22:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
This confusion stems from us failing to get the WP:ATT policy through. NOR and V should be on one page as Wikipedia:Attribution. It then becomes clearer how SYN fits in. Scott, I don't know how else to explain it to you. Can you respond to the example I gave earlier? Imagine the article:
Scott Perry came to public attention in April 2010 when he won the World Chess Championship. [2] However, according to the lobby group, Mothers against Chess, chess is played only by isolated geek types who should be focused instead on getting a real job. [3]
If both sentences were sourced, would you feel this was fair enough? SlimVirgin talk contribs 01:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, obviously your citation about the chess championship and the women's league is logically unsound, but if the cites are sourced, yet the logic unsound, then it seems to me that it should be deleted as unsound logic, but not as OR.
I see the term OR being applied to any type of writing that anyone disagrees with for any reason. It's like some sort of a magic bullet in a magic gun that gives POV pushers seemingly invincible power over those whom they would do battle with. It no longer seems to bear even a faint resemblence to Jimbo's original definition of it. I am told first that the properly sourced cite about the early church is OR, then I'm told that it's really WP:V because WP:SYN is not WP:NOR but really WP:V, yet WP:SYN is listed on the WP:NOR page as a subcategory. Does anyone even care about Jimbo's original definition of it anymore? Has anyone yet found a single example of how the proposed revision is less true to Jimbo's original definition of it than the recently implimented WP:SYN policy? Scott P. ( talk) 03:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
For those who were asking for a link to the revision proposal, it is at April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN.
I think that the proposed revision is a roundabout way of addressing a two subtle but important facts of writing.
Once you recognize this, I think that the example boils down to making a controversial and unsupported cause-effect statement between the UN and wars.
North8000 ( talk) 12:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Someone has been vandalizing the main WP:NOR project page, please stop. 70.88.94.134 ( talk) 18:39, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Quite clearly, the obvious warning of "no original policies" needs to be heeded. At this point, we need to find some well-recommended policies, backed by reliable sources, which can be used to deter original research, without attempting to control people's thoughts as being Thought police. Many other organizations have had difficulties in setting policies. Also, I understand that people might think they could re-invent WP:SYN to actually become a viable policy; however, developing " standards and practices" is a difficult problem, due to the effort of coordinating multiple suggestions, as if organizing a committee decision. The easiest solution will be to follow some well-established polices that are used (in the real world) to limit the extent of original research in articles. Unless some real-world policy is followed, there is a great risk of creating another "original policy" which is basically "original research on steroids" with a far-reaching, off-balance multiplier effect being leveraged on thousands of articles. - Wikid77 14:38, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Since our earliest days, Wikipedia has had endless debates between "inclusionists" and "exclusionists". Such debates have raged at most of our policy pages (most recently over WP:BURDEN, and WP:HANDLE). I think the above is another example.
The underlying issue always comes down to this: Should problematic material be removed? The answer to that question is inevitably... sometimes, sometimes not. This is, of course, a very unhelpful answer. We need to ask another question: When is it OK to remove problematic material, and when is it not OK to remove problematic material? The answer to that is... it is OK to remove problematic material when you can not fix the problem by some other method.
Wikid and Scott make a valid point when they note that (too) many editors jump right to removal when confronted with WP:SYN violations. However, I strongly disagree with how they deal with this issue... I strongly disagree with changing the policy to allow synthesis. I think the right way to deal with it is to make it clearer that removal is a last step... that it is what you do after you have found that you can not fix the problem in some other way. In the case of WP:SYN violations, editors should first see if they can resolve the violation without removing the information (for example: searching to see if the conclusion is actually verifiable and, if so, adding a citation... or rewriting the section in question so that it does not form a synthesis... or adding a tag so that someone else will fix it).
Deletionists need to understand that sometimes removing material is not the best option... Inclusionists need to understand that sometimes removing the material is the only option. Blueboar ( talk) 15:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
The recent alterations to WP:SYN in which WP:SYN attempts to police not only written conclusions but also unstated implications have seemed to cause this wild tangent and confusing of the actual meanings. I agree with users Wikid77 and North8000 that Wikipedia policy has significantly failed in its attempts to police potential unstated implications. This attempt to expand Wikipedia editorial policies to not only deal with written conclusions but to also attempt to deal with the thoughts of our readers has caused a great deal of confusion amongst many, as is evidenced by the large amount of recent conflict on this page.
I would like to propose what I am calling a major reversion of WP:SYN, as opposed to a major revision. I am proposing that we revert WP:SYN to its last version from June 21st, 2009 01:56, by SlimVirgin, which was the last version of WP:SYN that did not attempt to deal with mere implications. As such, I have just created a new page at Proposed major Reversion of WP:SYN, which I have started as an exact copy of this June 21st version of WP:SYN. Comments welcome. Scott P. ( talk) 15:46, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Blueboar, this is not a vote. You know that we have not yet come to any semblance of a consensus yet, so you are using this maneuver of trying to turn this dialogue into a 'vote' before anyone has yet even fully reviewed it only so you can keep your status-quo by procedural default. Scott P. ( talk) 15:59, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Scott P, are you sure you don't want to propose something more "surgical" than a 9 month revert? North8000 ( talk) 20:15, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
RE: Wikipedia_talk:No original research#Location of the proposed revision of WP:SYN
The wp:nor policy and the policy which it is subset of (wp:ver) as written have made them become ever more widely mis-used by POV pushers, deletionists etc. to the detriment of Wikipedia. These policies definitely need work, but I'm not so sure that this proposal is a good way to start. North8000 ( talk) 11:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't follow what the proposals are because there are too many words. Scott has posted 124 times in four days and Wikid 26 times in six days, mostly long posts, so it's impossible to follow the key points. Can one of you say very succinctly (two sentences) what the concern is? Less really is more when it comes to policies and their talk pages. :) SlimVirgin talk contribs 21:54, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
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North8000 ( talk) 02:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
North8000 ( talk) 11:48, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
At the start of the year the Primary sources definition included the following:
This principle has been here for several years. This edit on 11 Jan by SlimVirgin altered it to: "Primary sources that have been reliably published" I can see that and I would support "Primary sources that have been published in a reliable source" but I do not support the total removal of this clause which happened with two more edits the first was this one by TimVickers on 22 January. I understand why the word reliable was removed as a next step because it was meaningless. However the removal of the concept that only primary sources published by a reliable publisher can be used is very important, because it is fundamental to stopping WP:OR particularly in historical articles. If people are free to rummage in unpublished historical archives, they may well be able to overthrow accepted history by digging up a document and quoting an extract from it without violating any other part of PSTS which this sentence was supposed to stop.
So I would like to put back into the policy "Primary sources that have been published in reliable sources," which takes care of TimVickers's comment on his removal "remove 'reliably published', horrible phrase."-- PBS ( talk) 13:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
BTW I came here to quote PSTS on this because I am looking at several articles were someone has either created a copyright violation or has written a piece of research using unpublished primary sources, (don't know which yet) but removing this clause does not help in stopping Wikipedia being used for OR. -- PBS ( talk) 13:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Not that I object to the text, but it does have to be read correctly. For example, if someone resolves a disagreement about a subject's birth date by actually driving to a county seat and looking up the birth certificate in the public records office, that's perfectly acceptable. The birth certificate is publicly available and so it satisfies WP:V, and the claim is purely descriptive, so it satisfies PSTS. It's a stretch to say that the birth certificate is "reliably published". But this may be a rare enough issue that it can be handled on a case by case basis. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 04:06, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Let me say it a different way. I picked birth certificates as an example because I know from experience that they are near the borderline for NOR. We do not permit someone to cite an unpublished diary they keep in their attic, and we do permit people to cite the New York Times. But public records are in between. What I said was, even if you reinsert "reliably published", it still leaves this sort of thing unclear (and unacknowledged) in the policy text. I know from experience that many people would say that a birth certificate on file in the county courthouse and freely available to the public is indeed "reliably published". — Carl ( CBM · talk) 13:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Quite true, but the same sloppy WP editors may pick the wrong John Smith in a secondary source too (assuming similar details and time periods). In fact, I have seen this myself, with a wikilink to the wrong guy, all in good (but sloppy) faith. So the bottom line is we need to use our common sense, be careful, and apply extra care, a lot more, when dealing with primary sources. Crum375 ( talk) 22:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Alternative_text_for_images#Guideline discussing the degree to which WP:OR, among other WP:V policies, applies to alt text. — Charles Edward ( Talk | Contribs) 02:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone have a problem with "our policy" being in red in the the primary/secondary sources section? I added it a while back to make it stand out, but Erik keeps removing it. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 05:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I have never seen color used in this manner before. Bold and italics is a perfectly sufficient way to emphasize the start of passages. At some point, you can only do so much to hammer the points home, and there is no precedent for color on a policy's page. I look at the revision, and the combination of bold and italics is enough. Erik ( talk) 14:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Colour should only be used if consideration in choosing the colours is made for the colour blind -- PBS ( talk) 20:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
It seem that we are supposed to evaluate the reliability of publishers and authors. Is this not a massive and original research project? Lumenos ( talk) 09:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I'll assume you are asking where sources are being evaluated the Wikipedia. This happens anywhere there is an article on something/someone, who is being used as a source, and where this article says something pertinent to the source's credibility. These are often found in "controversy" sections in articles on books, news organizations, websites, authors, publishers, governments, etc. (Or not an entire article but at least some mention that helps readers judge the the credibility of a source.) An example regarding a source that I guess would be fine for Wikipedia, would be in Associated Press / controversies. An example about an author that I would think would not be considered reliable, would be Rush_Hudson_Limbaugh#Claims_of_inaccuracy. Lumenos ( talk) 06:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm mainly proposing this process of choosing sources be more open and accessible by linking from articles, and that it be more organized and justified, by creating wiki articles outlining the arguments. This is being done many places in Wikipedia, it is just not formal policy.
It is fantastic that already we have citation tags that can easily link to articles about authors, publishers, etc, so that if a source is once thought to be reliable and is therefore included, at least any future discoveries of flaws in the source, could be made available in those articles. (It might be better if we could have some sort of indicator next to the reference number, in the article, showing how much the source has been evaluated and what its current ranking is.) Lumenos ( talk) 06:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
For controversial subjects we should always allow articles about any sources that are deemed reliable, and, in these articles, include the same evidence of their reliability that was used in the reliable sources debates. Also allowing articles for many prolific sources that are considered unreliable, that explain why they were judged "unreliable". If we can cite a "reliable source" for an argument used in a wp:RSN debate, it could/should be included in the article about the source. If we can't cite a "reliable source" for these arguments then "reliable source" is an example of WP: doublespeak (hypocrisy). When we can cite "reliable sources" who claim a source is reliable, then this is just WP: circular reasoning in WP: group think ;-). I think the only solution is to change the definition of a "reliable source", essentially allowing "original research". Lumenos ( talk) 06:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
The simplest first step for this would be to have a template, like you see at the top of the talk page of an article that was considered for deletion, but these templates would link to the corresponding wp:RSN debate. Maybe call these "Wikiproject_Sources" similar to the Wikiprojects at the top of this talk page. Do this for both "good" sources and "bad" sources. Lumenos ( talk) 06:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually, Lumenos' complaint fails much earlier in its formulation.
Lumenos, Wikipedia does not prohibit "original research" in the plain-English sense. It prohibits WP:Original research, a very specialized and more limited sense. You have fallen for the map-territory fallacy: The name of the policy is not the policy itself.
WP:OR -- the actual policy, not your unfounded assumptions based on the title -- directly says that selecting sources is not a violation of Wikipedia's policies. The exact words are, "Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."
Note that this issue applies to many other subjects: Some wikt:notable subjects are not WP:Notable; some wikt:verifiable facts are not WP:Verifiable, and so forth. See WP:POLICY#Adherence: "the plain-English definition of the page's title or shortcut may be importantly different from the linked page."
If you can explain to me how "collecting and organizing material from existing sources...is encouraged" somehow amounts to "collecting and organizing material from existing sources...is prohibited as WP:Original research", then we'll talk, but I think you should give this up, because your premise is fatally flawed.
As for your solution: Aside from the fact that it's massive overkill for a problem affecting a tiny number of sources in a small number of articles, and that what makes a source reliable by our definition includes how it is used (so this why-I-picked-this-source essay would have to be updated with every round of revision), we're still trying to get all of our editors to name their sources at all, remember? People who don't quite bother pasting in a bare URL are highly unlikely to write an essay on why they selected a given source. The community is extremely unlikely to accept any such proposal. If you want to establish this, though, I suggest that you start providing model essays for every source that you use. Just place them on the article's talk pages. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
In this section I'm clipping quotes from WhatamIdoing post dated 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC) so that I can respond to specific statements. Lumenos ( talk) 04:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
As for your solution: Aside from the fact that it's massive overkill for a problem affecting a tiny number of sources in a small number of articles[...] quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Lumenos, Wikipedia does not prohibit "original research" in the plain-English sense. It prohibits WP:Original research, a very specialized and more limited sense. You have fallen for the map-territory fallacy: The name of the policy is not the policy itself. quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
"If you can explain to me how "collecting and organizing material from existing sources...is encouraged" somehow amounts to "collecting and organizing material from existing sources...is prohibited as WP:Original research", then we'll talk, but I think you should give this up, because your premise is fatally flawed. " quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
[...]we're still trying to get all of our editors to name their sources at all, remember? People who don't quite bother pasting in a bare URL are highly unlikely to write an essay on why they selected a given source. The community is extremely unlikely to accept any such proposal.[...] quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Note that this issue applies to many other subjects: Some wikt:notable subjects are not WP:Notable; some wikt:verifiable facts are not WP:Verifiable, and so forth. See WP:POLICY#Adherence: "the plain-English definition of the page's title or shortcut may be importantly different from the linked page." quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
People who don't quite bother pasting in a bare URL are highly unlikely to write an essay on why they selected a given source. The community is extremely unlikely to accept any such proposal. If you want to establish this, though, I suggest that you start providing model essays for every source that you use. Just place them on the article's talk pages. quote of WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a proposal for a WikiProject to be named "WikiProject Sources". (I may copy this somewhere else, but I'm putting it here for now, as it is a continuation of this line of thought.) Lumenos ( talk) 18:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The first template would be for talk pages, in the same WikiProjectBannerShell as the WikiProjects templates on this page. Any editor could put the template on the talk page of any article about a potential source that is "reliable", "unreliable", "of unknown reliability", etc. It would have one link to a general description of the WikiProject and a second link to a subpage of the article. The subpage would be permanent place to link to any wp:RSN discussions of the source and create a wikified "document" about any evidence regarding the reliability of the source. Any evidence about the reliability of a source, which is itself based on a "wp:reliable source" could be incorporated into the article. Lumenos ( talk) 18:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
This is an issue with notability, and I'm trying to reconcile what, to mean, appears to be a significant gap between the definitions of primary and secondary sources.
Imagine there is a book, X. That book wins a notable award, along with other books during a given event. A major newspaper (unaffiliated with the book or the award) publishes an article that simply announces the books, including X, that won that award at that event and goes into no other details on the book itself.
With respect to the book X, what is the nature - primary or secondary - of the newspaper article?
As per what is right now listed, it doesn't come off as primary, since the newspaper is removed from the involvement of the book or award. Nor at the same time it doesn't appear secondary, since it is simply reporting a fact and not attempting deeper analysis or the like of the award (it is only the case that it is at least one step removed from the actual book). And it certainly doesn't seem to be a tertiary source since it is not a summary of other sources.
This gap, to me, is where many "news reporting" can fall into, and needless to say, can lead to problems in notability discussion. I think it would be of significant help in terms of notability issues if we can provide strong clarity - either way - of where these types of articles would fall into in such cases. (I know that there are times the same article can be primary for one topic and secondary for the next, so I'm not looking for specifically what news articles fall into, just looking at the type of content that is involved such as the example above). -- MASEM ( t) 22:43, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Masem asked: With respect to the book X, what is the nature - primary or secondary - of the newspaper article?
Because the newspaper made no transformation of the information, on the historiographical primary source / secondary source distinction, it is a primary source.
One could perhaps argue that by selecting the information, the newspaper is implying that the award is more significant than other awards. This assumes that the newspaper applies some measure, that it is not random, and that it doesn’t report every award. This is a weak argument for a trivial amount of secondary source material. However, with regard to WP:N, the reporting of the award can be taken as objective evidence of notability. Independent secondary sources are not the only sources of objective evidence of notability, they are just the easiest and most common.
A primary source does not need to be not one step removed. My use of a photocopier 100 years later on the other side of the planet does not convert a primary source into a secondary source, per standard historiographical usage. A journalist or antique collector might disagree, but we are not journalists or antiques collectors.
I disagree with SlimVirgin’s assertions and logic. Further, I point out that she is quoting text from the policy that she fights hard to prevent improvement, and which is not to be found in any external reputable source. True, secondary sources don’t need “analysis”, but they do require some kind of transformative addition, whether it is satire, ridicule, contextualisation, or nearly anything else that is the product of the author of the secondary source The “second-hand account” = “secondary source” is an old but false wikipedia perversion. I guess that it relates to journalistic or scientific usage of “primary source”, where it means “original source”. I am aware of such usage, but note that I have never seen people who use it so make any use of the term “secondary source”. This idea of “second-hand account” has more to do with our usage of “independent source” than it does with secondary source, which can be read in full by following the link. SlimVirgin is committed to her view, but it is not the historiographical usage that is appropriate for timeless encyclopedia.
The truth with newspaper articles is that they are usage dependent, but there is a quick and easy way to roughly differentiate. If the article is a “story”, it is probably a secondary source. The article is a “report”, it is probably a “primary source”. Masem’s original question appears to be describing a report.
My view for what should change here is that we should stop redefining “secondary source” as ‘’always’’ including newspapers, which we do so that they automatically meet the criteria of WP:N, but explicitly acknowledge that multiple independent newspaper articles (avoiding “report” & “story”) are sufficient evidence of notability of the subject of the articles, regardless of the primary/secondary distinction. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 06:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Something clearer? How about
Sometimes it is difficult to decide if a particular source is primary or secondary. Maybe you are pretty sure that it is primary but someone else is arguing that it is secondary. On these occasions, it is best to remember that this is a guideline on how to apply other policies and guidelines, most importantly the policy no original research and the guideline on notability. Don't worry too much if the source is primary or secondary. If the issue is notability, look at the general notability guideline and any area-specific guidelines such as WP:Notability (books). In the case of the general notability guideline, although it mentions secondary sources as part of the explanation, it more prominently states that sources should be independent of the subject. Think about whether the source is independent of the subject.
I think that deals with it quite effectively. Yaris678 ( talk) 20:58, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Let me offer how I have always used PSTS as a possible discussion point. To me, every source can be easily qualified into two - possibly three - axes (there's also the reliability measure, but that's less objective than these three axes so I'm not worried about it here):
This language is far from perfect, but hopefully its understood why this makes it easier to identify sources. With this, most newspaper articles (routine coverage) become independent third-party primary sources, such as the example above. There's still a bit of fuzziness, and you still have the problem that an article can be one type of source for one topic and another type for a different topic - eg you cannot immediately characterize all articles of a given type into one bin, but that's something we're not able to get around. -- MASEM ( t) 14:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Masem, I think you have it pretty right. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
14:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Masem's definition, "Tertiary sources are non-transformative works based on summarizing other primary, secondary, and tertiary sources", I find striking. I have never seen such a definition of tertiary source before, but it makes so much sense. So many works are secondary works based only on previous secondary works, but are not what anyone calls a "tertiary source" The definition works very well for Wikipedia. We do not want our editors including their own commentary (or other transformation) on existing sources. -- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 23:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Are we allowed to advance positions in proportion to the extent that most people would consider them truthful? 99.56.137.254 ( talk) 11:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Mainspace: Yes, but get the position reliably published before even mentioning it here, and then declare your
WP:COI.
Project space/User space: You may write essays relevant to the project. --
SmokeyJoe (
talk)
23:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
At WP:NOR#Routine calculations, I had added: "However, this does not condone guessing someone's year of birth in a WP:BLP article," because giving someone an erroneous year of birth can have consequences in real life. However, User:Orderinchaos reverted this, without giving any reason. / Pieter Kuiper ( talk) 15:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I propose that we replace the NOR standard with a 'Original Research Only' standard. Any takers? Ortho rhombic, 21:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, half of Wikipedia is OR. Time to face reality. North8000 ( talk) 00:31, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I think you are missing the point. The important issue is that rules should be universaly enforced or discarded. Otherwise, the rules may be enforced selectively to promote an someone's personal agenda. 12.72.74.74 ( talk) 17:25, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
North, please read our content policies, such as WP:NOR, which says, "Wikipedia is a tertiary source", and WP:V which says, "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." What this means is that we don't use this site to post our own personal knowledge, but to report on what verifiable and reliable sources have published about a given topic. You ask what to do about material in an article which is "uncited", and the answer is simple: if it's challenged, likely to be challenged, or a quotation, and there is no reliable source cited for it, it should be removed. Crum375 ( talk) 17:23, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
"All of Wikipedia content is either plagiarism or original research!" -- OP
I am not sure if this has been discussed or addressed somewhere, or if this page is the best venue, but here goes. Do we have a policy about wiki-linking words inside quotes? The pro is that it can provide readers with Wikipedia-based clarification of unfamiliar terms mentioned in the quote. The con is that the link could end up distorting the quote, either intentionally or inadvertently, since Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and in any case may not be what the source intended or meant. In some cases, doing this could effectively be putting words into the source's mouth, with potential violation of WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, among others. Thoughts? Crum375 ( talk) 13:45, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
The people who are doing this are everyone, just about, because there is no policy which says we shouldn't. And sofixit does not apply here — it's a project-wide issue: we need to decide what the policy is, and then stick to it. Crum375 ( talk) 03:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
There is a proposal to promote this. 174.3.113.245 ( talk) 06:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
almost-instinct says on Wikipedia_talk:Quotations#Unable_To_Post: "For the biogs sections I chose quotes that had some relevence to that section of Larkin's life. The other quotes are from popular poems and can stand alone."
We already have an article listing of Philip Larkin's Poems.
His choice of quotes is original research. Can we get more feedback? 96.52.92.106 ( talk) 03:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Are you sure you wanted to remove the bullets from the synth section? It's not clear why you removed them now since they have been in the section for awhile. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 17:49, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Much of the lead and sources section are a repetition of the verifiability policy. This duplication confuses and dilutes the principal of No original research.
I suggest that most of the duplication be moved to the Related policies - Verifiability section or removed from this policy.-- SaskatchewanSenator ( talk) 08:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Reliable sources
Main page: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources See also: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Reliable sources
Material for which no reliable source can be found is considered original research. The only way to establish that your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains that same material. Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context or to advance a position that is not directly and explicitly supported by the source used, you as an editor are engaging in original research; see below.
Self-published material, whether on paper or online, is generally not regarded as reliable, but see the discussion of self-published sources for exceptions.
If you are able to discover something new, Wikipedia is not the place to premiere such a discovery. Once your discovery has been published in a reliable source, it may be referenced.
Related policies
Verifiability Main page: Wikipedia:Verifiability
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by a reliable source.
In general the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny given to checking facts, analyzing legal issues and scrutinizing evidence and arguments, the more reliable the publication.
The No original research policy and the verifiability policy reinforce each other by requiring that only assertions, theories, opinions, and arguments that have already been published in a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia. -- SaskatchewanSenator ( talk) 07:10, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I completely agree with Jimbo's take on this policy... but I don't think we should use it as our nutshell (see Scott's most recent edit). The nutshell we have had for a while sums up the policy well. We should certainly discuss before we change it. Blueboar ( talk) 14:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
Many people have been troubled by the policy of WP:SYN, to reject synthesis of reliable sources to promote an unpublished, so-called "conclusion". After years of consideration, I have finally pinpointed the problem: the policy of WP:Synthesis allows people to assume untrue conclusions which can form the basis of 2 major logical fallacies:
In particular, when people claim the sources had stated A & B leading to an "implied conclusion" C, that actually empowers the assumption that C is the intended conclusion. Anyone can claim the nature of C, because it need not be stated (big mistake), and thus, C is wide-open to interpretation, as being the assumed, unspoken conclusion. Hence, by allowing any potential assumption, that allowance has opened the door to claiming a false premise, as a false basic assumption to argue against the article's text. By using the logical fallacy of argument from false premises, then anything can be proven; therefore WP:SYN could be legitimately used to prove that almost any text should be removed from an article. For example, consider the following extreme, but legitimate case:
Unfortunately, that implied conclusion cannot be rejected (because any unspoken conclusion is allowed by WP:SYN), and hence, quite possibly, arguing from the false premise of an empty lake in 2 years, then perhaps many people would die. Result: per WP:SYN, those 2 facts must be deleted from the article, as the complaint is indeed valid, per policy, for removing that text. The policy has failed because of a critical major mistake: anyone can assume almost any conclusion. Example:
A similar example:
Once again, despite how twisted or rabid the conclusion, those are indeed valid reasons to completely remove the related text.
A related, but more subtle, fallacy would be to substitute a "similar, unspoken conclusion" to be refuted, by condemning that nearby-conclusion using a strawman fallacy. Simply put: a Wikipedia policy must not reject anything based on a user's own assumptions. All policies must deal with what is actually written in an article ("put it in writing"), and not prosecute a " pre-crime" action as if it were based on hard evidence. Absolutely nothing based on assumption should be the basis to reject text: once unbounded assumptions are allowed, then anyone can validly do anything to an article. People often use WP:SYN to remove questionable text. However, because of allowing false premises (and subtle straw man fallacies), the failed WP:SYN policy can also be used by any desperate or frantic person to slant or censor any article, and thus it has been.
Recommendation: Issue a major retraction of WP:SYN, and issue a meta-policy that prohibits any future rejection of text based on a user's mere assumptions, rather than tangible hard evidence, to be compared against policy standards. - Wikid77 01:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Scott, I think you are very confused about what WP is about. Our goal is to summarize in our own words what others have published about a topic, not to add any new information, interpretation or implication. If any material is challenged or likely to be challenged, it needs a direct citation. Nothing needs to be slashed or burned, unless it's novel information or a novel interpretation not directly backed up by reliable sources. Crum375 ( talk) 15:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
The issue here is that "unpublished" is not quite the right word. Most of our articles contain only previously unpublished sentences, unless they are copyright violations. Really, WP:SYN asks us to assess whether the claims made by an article (implicit or explicit) are part of the overall picture of the subject that is given by the literature. This isn't a black-or-white question, because it depends both on the literal content of the claims being made and on their connotation.
For an example of how these are related, if we take a newspaper story about "A-Rod" and rephrase its claims to be about "Alex Rodriguez", this is fine even it synthesizes two sources (one for the claim about A-rod, another for the fact that A-rod and Alex Rodriguez are the same person). On the other hand, if we randomly replace "Jesus Christ" with "Jesus of Nazareth" in various religion articles in the same way, we will quickly run into problems.
The exact dividing line for which syntheses are OK is difficult to pin down exactly. It takes a broad reading of the literature to assess what the overall narrative about the topic at hand actually contains. However, the spirit of the policy is correct that we should not add claims to articles that materially change or extend the narrative from the literature. — Carl ( CBM · talk) 16:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
When Galileo started collecting and reporting various facts about the movements of the planets, and indicated the Earth could revolve around the Sun, he was placed under house-arrest and commanded not to write ("Wikipedia articles") in the common language of the people ("Italian Wikipedia") about those dangerous sourced facts, to be considered as a whole. Some Church officials even told Galileo that his ideas seemed correct, but the local people would not be able to handle his ideas in "their little minds", so Galileo's sourced data had to be withheld, or the world of the little people would erupt into chaos.
As the record shows, after some years, Galileo did die while still under house arrest; however, he managed to smuggle numerous chapters, to the outside world, written in common Italian, so that many people could understand and copy (GFDL) his writings about the planets. From those writings, Galileo became the Father of Modern Physics. Censorship is censorship, and it is very difficult to keep in check. In fact, where excess censorship exists, then people often find the means to publish sourced text in alternative ways.
In the example, above, about the officials that recommended women could be stationed in submarines, I noted only two issues: 1. the officials had no submarine training, having never served in submarines; and 2. they were all men. Immediately, conclusions were drawn, "Arrgh! It's clearly WP:SYN, as 'implicitly claiming' those officials were not qualified to decide a woman's role in submarines". However, suppose in the next chapter, which wiki-Galileo would smuggle into the article, other facts were then revealed. Instead of submarine training, all those officials had trained for years with underground bunkers where men and women were both assigned for months, remaining inside those bunkers for long multi-month periods. Plus, all those male officials had wives and daughters who were also interviewed and said from their experiences, living together, that they, as women, shared the same views as the men. "Call the new Pope!" Instead, the actual result is that the article would have informed the world that experience in some underground bunkers relates to submarine duty, and men can have discussed issues with women, for their opinions. So now, the "assumed conclusion" is realized as untrue ("a false premise" - hint, hint, hint) of a nefarious condemnation of the officials as "unqualified to decide about women on submarines". How could experienced Wikipedia editors have reached such a horrendously incorrect "assumed conclusion" that totally contradicts the other data collected about the situation? Because, in general, unless the conclusion is stated ("put it in writing"), then the danger is the pre-censoring of sourced text, based on half-baked, half-assumed ideas of what intelligent people really think. Never assume people have the same level of intellect as you. As history recorded, 350 years after Galileo, a new Pope John Paul II reversed the Church policy, and decided that Galileo was correct in writing about those ideas. The ideas that Galileo had written, 350 years earlier, did not cause the "little people" to scream in confusion and destroy the Church. It is never too late to correct a bad policy, even after 350 wiki-years. WP:SYN is the Galileo-persecution fallacy, that pre-censors sourced text, based on assumed dangers, not based on reality. - Wikid77 ( talk) 11:48, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Let's review, Galileo, one more time. Who had the original conclusions? It was the Church, who concluded that Galileo, by publishing old ideas in Italian (not Latin), would discredit Church doctrine among Italian-speaking commoners. Again, who wrote the old ideas? Correct, it was Galileo, as he wrote about prior data that indicated the Earth revolved around the Sun. Copernicus (from Poland) had written about these ideas of a Heliocentric system. Plus, the Church had reviewed these ideas, published, if you will, within the clergy. However, the Church would not let Galileo write such (old) ideas in Italian, for the masses. Why did the Church want to suppress those OLD ideas? The Church had invented, as an assumed original conclusion, that Galileo publishing old ideas (from rare sources) was intending to "advance the cause" that Church doctrine was wrong and the Church would be destroyed. Galileo, later, did smuggle Italian writings, out of his residence. Also, many people learned about a Sun-centred Solar System, but the Church was not destroyed. So, again, where was the original research? There was NONE. Instead, the Church imagined or invented or WP:SYNed a bogus conclusion, not stated (but implied, by them) that Galileo's writing would discredit and ruin the Church. There was no original research, but the Church had invented original conclusions (not stated) as original fears which they used to arrest and censor Galileo. Similarly, WP:SYN can be used to censor text, when there is no original research, at all, but merely original fears of some original conclusion which does not really exist. Hence, WP:SYN can be used to censor non-original research. Thus, that absurd reality proves that WP:SYN is a failed policy, by reductio ad absurdum (an idea reduced into an absurd conclusion). WP:SYN, intended to block original research, can block the non-original. Instead, WP:SYN should require conclusions to be explicitly stated before deletion; any imagined conclusions are merely a matter of one-sided text which lacks NPOV balance, where other viewpoints could be added to downplay the feared conclusion. Text should NOT be removed simply because someone fears an unstated conclusion. Instead, that situation is considered "unbalanced for NPOV" but not a case of original research. - Wikid77 ( talk) 06:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Wikid77 for pointing out that the current version of WP:SYN actually advocates the deletion of properly cited references, simply because they might cause people to learn something new. This seems to me to be against the basic spirit of Wikipedia. Wasn't Wikipedia designed to be something new where new ideas could be presented together in a new way? Still, I think there is something about WP:SYN that is worth saving. Based on some of your comments on my talk page, I have now updated my proposed revision of WP:SYN to incorporate most of your thoughts and suggestions. I think my April 15 draft of the proposed WP:SYN is much shorter, and I hope improved. If you get a chance, please look at it at: April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN, and let me know what you think. Thanks. Scott P. ( talk) 14:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I have read it... I still reject it. It is overly complicated and unclear. It is fundamentally flawed as to what it allows. It can easily be abused by POV pushers. Need I go on? Blueboar ( talk) 16:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with User:Scottperry's assessment, and the problem is that WP:SYN is fatally flawed to let people's original fears delete sourced text, as he stated, "lest someone might accidentally have a fresh thought". It does seem mediaeval, or definitely like the Dark Ages, in fearing some unknown article sorcery as speaking dangerous words, so have their wiki-tongues pulled out (!). However, it's not the Wikipedia people who are awry, but rather, a lack of wiki-education for coping with new ideas. Scottperry's instinctive understanding of Wikipedia seems fundamentally correct: "Wikipedia is the sum of all knowledge" including past, very ancient, and brand new, but the problem has been the "verifiability" aspect: for that reason, it is often difficult to post new ideas and defend them as "verifiable" (due to a lack of quick sources), but the same can be said of very ancient ideas from texts whose translation might not be easily obtained. We get around the "this-aint-the-news" fears by anticipating news reports, such as an earthquake or celebrity death, where people were collecting data about common earthquake regions, or someone's illness and dangerous habits. As you suspected, when "the word" gets out to the people, then numerous readers descend upon Wikipedia to find the latest sourced information about a topic. Pageviews about a celebrity or scientific topic might skyrocket to 300x times the typical daily pageviews. When a celebrity gets arrested, or an ancient tomb is opened, or water is discovered on Mars, then masses of people come to Wikipedia, and quite often, they find what they wanted. You have triggered an interesting line of discussion: methods to adjust WP policies so we can streamline the addition of new reports into the existing articles and give people the encyclopedic (all-around, old+new) answers they seek. Plus, here's a core problem: when the masses come to Wikipedia and DON'T find the answers they seek, then typically, some particular people have been actively censoring text to conceal that information. With 12 million users, when something is NOT there, it typically hasn't been "overlooked" but rather, purposely omitted from Wikipedia. Hence, several policies need to be adjusted to allow all verifiable information to be properly reported, while still protecting privacy and other concerns. For WP:SYN, I again, advocate: only novel conclusions stated in writing should be censored as "original research" while facts that support some unpopular, feared conclusion should not be removed. Wikipedia should not be the thought-police which prevents people from thinking in "scary" ways. I realize that concept might be difficult to understand, after years of removing sourced text, but consider how many times Ann Sullivan had to hand-sign "W-A-T-E-R" in Jimbo's Alabama, before Hellen Keller understood why the concept mattered at the water pump. - Wikid77 ( talk) 23:07, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't care if the exact version of our proposed major revision to WP:SYN at April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN is accepted verbatim or not. It is the spirit of our proposed changes to WP:SYN that I am behind. For those editors who may not have yet had enough time to wade through the specific details of the new proposal, please let me summarize here the 'spirit of the changes' in synopsis form:
Thanks, Scott P. ( talk) 12:23, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
A fundamental problem, in policy
WP:SYN, is the empowering of original conclusions which might not be, at all, what the author of the text was even thinking. The policy empowers people to reject (censor) sourced text, if they can assume that an original conclusion is being implied to "advance a cause". Unless such conclusions are actually stated in an article ("put it in writing"), then the author's intent is wide open to rampant speculation. Even popular culture is replete with adages that warn of multiple interpretations of the same events: "One man's trash is another man's treasure" or "One man's rebel is another's
freedom fighter" or "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Hence, the problem, with
WP:SYN, is not a matter of rocket science: the problem is, quite simply, that someone can claim an original conclusion when the author of the text held a different view (trash v. treasure).
Unless the supposed "original" opinion is actually stated, in writing, then WP:SYN can be used to pre-censor sourced text, based on claiming some, invented original conclusion that the author did not intend. The author is not allowed to include original research, but the censor is allowed to remove text based on assumed "original conclusions". Is there still anyone who cannot grasp the problem with that policy? A conclusion to be censored must be explicitly stated in an article. Any other situation is merely an incomplete view, as a NPOV imbalance, where the text might seem to indicate a particular conclusion, but if more text were added, then the NPOV balance could shift to a more neutral position. The result is not to censor by WP:SYN but rather, to add more text to achieve an NPOV neutral converage. WP:SYN must insist that censorship be used to remove actual text stating a novel conclusion, rather than sourced text presenting a one-sided view (in someone's opinion of one-sided). -
Wikid77 (
talk)
04:35, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
In re-reading policy WP:SYN, I analyzed the specific usage of 2 examples in that policy, as to possibly implying some unsourced conclusion. I was surprised to learn, in fact, that there is a real connection, implying a WP:BLP violation:
At first, I thought that text couldn't really imply some unstated conclusion, but then I decided to check a Google search, and "Aha!" I found 168,000 matches for "United Nations" plus " plagiarism". However, it gets even more sinister: there is a WP article titled " List of plagiarism controversies" which specifically states, "unabashed plagiarism, with lengthy passages of United Nations reports". I know it can't be proven to be, intentionally, accusing that author of plagiarism. However, the evidence is overwhelming: there is A + B, which leads to C (plagiarism of United Nations documents), where that connection is even written on Wikipedia, itself. Perhaps the people who re-wrote WP:SYN to have those 2 examples thought it would be okay, as an inside joke, if the policy actually had tricked people into accepting the policy as mere policy, rather than a veiled attempt to lead people to conclude, yes, the man did commit plagiarism of UN texts (but did he actually, according to valid sources?). Because the policy explicitly states that people could conclude "C" (if they so choose, like it's really a choice in the policy), then the policy itself seems to be clearly trying to plant the seeds of the accusation, without listing reliable sources which could confirm the guilt or innocence of people disguised as so-called "Smith" or "Jones" as if that wasn't a transparent attack on the real author, as a WP:BLP insinuation. Policy WP:SYN needs to be deleted or re-worded to avoid that unsourced BLP text, soon. Perhaps next time, the examples could be about 2 fictional guys debating on Mars and the "Intergalactic Peace Federation" or such, not trying to sneak an unsourced real-world conclusion into the policy. If only WP:SYN had not advised to BEWARE implied conclusions, then readers would be free to ignore any inferred conclusions; however, since the policy clearly states to beware any implied conclusions, then it self-validates those conclusions as being the intended meaning. It's like a guy telling a police officer, "There's a handgun in my backpack, or NOT", so now, the officer has no choice: he must arrest that guy and search the backpack (per policies about implied suspicion). A policy cannot warn people to fear implied conclusions, and then imply an author plagiarized UN documents. Per policy, WP:BLP, such a conclusion must be backed by a source footnote, rather than just verifiable in common sources. Since the names are disguised as "Smith" and "Jones" then it cannot be properly footnoted, and that text should be deleted as a WP:SYN synthesis claiming he plagiarized United Nations documents. Am I assuming all these implied conclusions correctly? Does anyone know the real names? - Wikid77 09:47, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Before re-writing the WP:SYN policy to become more effective, and less likely for abuse, then several problems need to be avoided. I have begun the following list (feel free to insert more entries, tagged with your user-signature):
Those are some of the major issues I've detected. Please feel free to insert more entries (in the list immediately above), tagged with your user-signature in brackets "[xxx]". Otherwise, continue the discussion below. - Wikid77 ( talk) 12:16, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I checked the history of WP:SYN, and it seems that the controversial examples about the United Nations were added, and then heavily disputed, circa 2 July 2009. Despite opening the door to rejecting an implied-conclusion synthesis (that the UN was a failure), that example also asked the user to believe that, despite decades of debates about perceived UN failures, no source ever claimed the UN was a failure because wars are still fought (hard to accept no source about that). Instead, let's use a hypothetical example, without awakening those success-of-the-UN debates. Consider a lawnmower example, based on two hypothetical witness sources "[1]" & "[2]":
Using the lawnmower example (rather than the U.N.), the issue is better illustrated, especially since the conclusion definitely seems highly original, and meanwhile, few people would believe the conclusion is valid, despite the mower running 2 minutes. Also, there is no connection to the hot-topic issue about politics of the United Nations, just a mere hypothetical case with a suspicious conclusion "stated in writing". I suggest using that lawnmower example as a better example of WP:SYN. - Wikid77 13:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
OK SlimVirgin, what first got me over here to WP:NOR was this: on April 12, over at the Hutaree article I had two citations that I considered to be neutrally worded and properly referenced, yet they were deleted by other users as WP:SYN. Please see: an example of a bad deletion of good citations under current wp-syn. The explanation given by the other editors was that these references were by definition OR. I thought to myself, 'How can a neutrally worded properly referenced citation be considered OR?' I've been editing here since practically the beginning of Wikipedia, and I've never seen any similar logic used before by a Wikipedia editor for a deletion. I decided to go to WP:NOR to see if there have been any recent significant policy changes, and sure enough, there was one.
Beginning last summer, WP:SYN first began to concern itself not only with the accuracy and textual neutrality of a citation, but also with the possible implications of a citation. It seemed to me that there was some confusion in the writing of WP:SYN that enabled these authors to misunderstand the intention of WP:SYN. People were confusing the need to have neutrally and fairly written conclusions in Wikipedia with a perceived need to prevent people from possibly thinking new thoughts after merely reading a neutrally and fairly written citation. Please take a look at this edit and tell me what you think of it. Scott P. ( talk) 14:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Amongst some of the leadership of the "Christian far right", there is some tentative and qualified support of the actions taken by the Hutaree. The rationale given for such support is the apparent belief that the teachings of Jesus would have advocated and justified the killing of random local police officers, if such officers supported a government that abused its power, and which had fired the first shot. Such a 'first shot' is believed by them to possibly have already been fired in what is described by them as an armed conflict apparently already under way between their people and the US government. [20] However, the Biblical Jesus "consistently opposed violence". [21] During the first three centuries of the Christian Era, the teachings of the early Church ruled out violence as an option, even in self-defense. [22]
Scott Perry came to public attention in April 2010 when he won the World Chess Championship. However, according to the lobby group, Mothers against Chess, chess is played only by isolated geek types who should be focused instead on getting a real job.
Scott P., In the Hutaree example that you gave, note the edit summary for the main reason for the deletion, "removing two sentences based on sources that do not discuss Hutaree per WP:NOR, see talk for explanation". This reason for the deletion is supported by the lead of WP:NOR and here is the relevant excerpt, "To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the material as presented."
If a reliable source was provided that made those statements while discussing Hutaree, it would have been demonstrated that original research was not added. Instead, only the editor made the connection between the topic Hutaree and these statements by placing them in the Hutaree article, and thus they were deleted. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 15:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Scott, let me add a point to Bob's reply. You seem to think that we need a "counter argument" to your addition of an unsourced implication or conclusion. This is fundamentally wrong. The core principle of WP:V and WP:NOR is that the burden of finding a source is on the person adding the material, not the one removing it. So if you want to add a conclusion or implication that Hutraree are not good Christians, you need to find a source which directly says it, and not ask your fellow editors to "find a counter-argument". We don't "argue" here: we find reliable sources which directly support what we write. Crum375 ( talk) 16:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
To reply to your point about cakes, if you find a source about "baked goods", and there is no contention about the point you are making, it could be acceptable for cakes. But once there is contention, you must find a direct source which refers directly to cakes. This is part of our requirement for reliable sources in general: you need to supply a direct source if the material you add is challenged or likely to be challenged. Crum375 ( talk) 16:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
All the flurry of recent discussions stems from the massive implications of the logical fallacies inherent in the WP:SYN policy fiasco. There is no end to the problems it will cause, by fearing implied conclusions. Let me clarify again: when any chain of reasoning begins as an "argument from false premises" then it is common knowledge, that those those false premises can be used to prove anything. This is a fundamental concept in " sentential logic" or " predicate logic". A false premise can be used, while following correct reasoning, to "prove" that 1 = 0, or black is white, or right is wrong, or 2 = -2, 3 = -3, 4 = -4,... 10,000 = -10,000, etc. When I noted "confusion from 10,000 problems with WP:SYN" that was just a placeholder number to indicate infinite problems, in all those article disputes, which stem from basing a policy on the false premise that someone might fear an imagined conclusion (a "false premise") is being implied by mixing sourced text from 2 sources. Do you realize that means most articles can only be based on a single source? Naturally, hundreds of people have been derailed by this WP:SYN policy confusion. Plus, combine that confusion, with other problems in the WP:SYN policy, and the problems just spread in all directions. Again, I have emphasized, above, that no person with worldly experience will stomach those United Nations examples, with the idea of the UN denoted as a failure (or success) as being an "original idea" not found in a source. Here's an "original" idea: go inside the UN and try those examples! One source even noted, over the top, that most wars are conducted by UN member nations!!! If you re-read the above discussions, it is clear that policy WP:SYN has more than 7 major disconnects with reality. Perhaps what is making these discussions so difficult, to absorb all at once, is the fact that all the problems in WP:SYN are being exposed in a massive revelation of all the failed ideas that it contains, in every facet. WP:SYN is a Ball of Confusion, with numerous problems all twisted together. We have not even begun to elaborate on all the ideas presented above. - Wikid77 00:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
To all of those who have shown an interest in this dialogue about OR. I just found this historical nugget, that I thought you might find interesting. The actual kernel of OR. Everyone here these days seems to be labeling anything that they don't agree with as OR and instantly deleting it.
Here is what the original entry in the article about OR said. It was entered on December 21st, 2003 and it is a direct quote by Jimbo Wales:
If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.
If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides.
If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research.
Now the idea of OR seems to have been so significantly altered, that we are sometimes no longer permitting others to publish the actual majority view, as under the new WP:SYN policy, we are now sometimes labeling even the majority view as OR. Witness the citation about the early Christian church's policies towards advocating violence, which was promptly labeled as OR, and deleted, despite the fact that it was clearly the majority view, and it possibly does not even have a significant minority disagreeing with it.
I ask, "Is the current WP:SYN policy of labeling even a majority view as OR and promptly deleting it... is this new WP:SYN policy harmonious with Jimbo Wales' view of OR?" Or are his views now considered as OR too?
Please, somebody, anybody... please just finally carefully read the proposed WP:SYN revision and give me a single example of how it would be less harmonious with Wales' definition of OR than this new recently installed WP:SYN policy is. The proposed revision can be found at: April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN.
Thanks, Scott P. ( talk) 20:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
If the viewpoint is found in reliable sources it is not WP:SYN.-- SaskatchewanSenator ( talk) 21:03, 16 April 2010 (UTC)If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.
I think that the first example in WP:SYNTH may have given Scott the wrong impression that Synth is only or mainly about unstated conclusions. I concluded this from the lead sentence in Scott's April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN. I think he got this wrong impression because we failed to put a simple example of Synth with a stated conclusion as the first example in the section. -- Bob K31416 ( talk) 22:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
This confusion stems from us failing to get the WP:ATT policy through. NOR and V should be on one page as Wikipedia:Attribution. It then becomes clearer how SYN fits in. Scott, I don't know how else to explain it to you. Can you respond to the example I gave earlier? Imagine the article:
Scott Perry came to public attention in April 2010 when he won the World Chess Championship. [2] However, according to the lobby group, Mothers against Chess, chess is played only by isolated geek types who should be focused instead on getting a real job. [3]
If both sentences were sourced, would you feel this was fair enough? SlimVirgin talk contribs 01:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, obviously your citation about the chess championship and the women's league is logically unsound, but if the cites are sourced, yet the logic unsound, then it seems to me that it should be deleted as unsound logic, but not as OR.
I see the term OR being applied to any type of writing that anyone disagrees with for any reason. It's like some sort of a magic bullet in a magic gun that gives POV pushers seemingly invincible power over those whom they would do battle with. It no longer seems to bear even a faint resemblence to Jimbo's original definition of it. I am told first that the properly sourced cite about the early church is OR, then I'm told that it's really WP:V because WP:SYN is not WP:NOR but really WP:V, yet WP:SYN is listed on the WP:NOR page as a subcategory. Does anyone even care about Jimbo's original definition of it anymore? Has anyone yet found a single example of how the proposed revision is less true to Jimbo's original definition of it than the recently implimented WP:SYN policy? Scott P. ( talk) 03:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
For those who were asking for a link to the revision proposal, it is at April 15 proposed revision of WP:SYN.
I think that the proposed revision is a roundabout way of addressing a two subtle but important facts of writing.
Once you recognize this, I think that the example boils down to making a controversial and unsupported cause-effect statement between the UN and wars.
North8000 ( talk) 12:49, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Someone has been vandalizing the main WP:NOR project page, please stop. 70.88.94.134 ( talk) 18:39, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Quite clearly, the obvious warning of "no original policies" needs to be heeded. At this point, we need to find some well-recommended policies, backed by reliable sources, which can be used to deter original research, without attempting to control people's thoughts as being Thought police. Many other organizations have had difficulties in setting policies. Also, I understand that people might think they could re-invent WP:SYN to actually become a viable policy; however, developing " standards and practices" is a difficult problem, due to the effort of coordinating multiple suggestions, as if organizing a committee decision. The easiest solution will be to follow some well-established polices that are used (in the real world) to limit the extent of original research in articles. Unless some real-world policy is followed, there is a great risk of creating another "original policy" which is basically "original research on steroids" with a far-reaching, off-balance multiplier effect being leveraged on thousands of articles. - Wikid77 14:38, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Since our earliest days, Wikipedia has had endless debates between "inclusionists" and "exclusionists". Such debates have raged at most of our policy pages (most recently over WP:BURDEN, and WP:HANDLE). I think the above is another example.
The underlying issue always comes down to this: Should problematic material be removed? The answer to that question is inevitably... sometimes, sometimes not. This is, of course, a very unhelpful answer. We need to ask another question: When is it OK to remove problematic material, and when is it not OK to remove problematic material? The answer to that is... it is OK to remove problematic material when you can not fix the problem by some other method.
Wikid and Scott make a valid point when they note that (too) many editors jump right to removal when confronted with WP:SYN violations. However, I strongly disagree with how they deal with this issue... I strongly disagree with changing the policy to allow synthesis. I think the right way to deal with it is to make it clearer that removal is a last step... that it is what you do after you have found that you can not fix the problem in some other way. In the case of WP:SYN violations, editors should first see if they can resolve the violation without removing the information (for example: searching to see if the conclusion is actually verifiable and, if so, adding a citation... or rewriting the section in question so that it does not form a synthesis... or adding a tag so that someone else will fix it).
Deletionists need to understand that sometimes removing material is not the best option... Inclusionists need to understand that sometimes removing the material is the only option. Blueboar ( talk) 15:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
The recent alterations to WP:SYN in which WP:SYN attempts to police not only written conclusions but also unstated implications have seemed to cause this wild tangent and confusing of the actual meanings. I agree with users Wikid77 and North8000 that Wikipedia policy has significantly failed in its attempts to police potential unstated implications. This attempt to expand Wikipedia editorial policies to not only deal with written conclusions but to also attempt to deal with the thoughts of our readers has caused a great deal of confusion amongst many, as is evidenced by the large amount of recent conflict on this page.
I would like to propose what I am calling a major reversion of WP:SYN, as opposed to a major revision. I am proposing that we revert WP:SYN to its last version from June 21st, 2009 01:56, by SlimVirgin, which was the last version of WP:SYN that did not attempt to deal with mere implications. As such, I have just created a new page at Proposed major Reversion of WP:SYN, which I have started as an exact copy of this June 21st version of WP:SYN. Comments welcome. Scott P. ( talk) 15:46, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Blueboar, this is not a vote. You know that we have not yet come to any semblance of a consensus yet, so you are using this maneuver of trying to turn this dialogue into a 'vote' before anyone has yet even fully reviewed it only so you can keep your status-quo by procedural default. Scott P. ( talk) 15:59, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Scott P, are you sure you don't want to propose something more "surgical" than a 9 month revert? North8000 ( talk) 20:15, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
RE: Wikipedia_talk:No original research#Location of the proposed revision of WP:SYN
The wp:nor policy and the policy which it is subset of (wp:ver) as written have made them become ever more widely mis-used by POV pushers, deletionists etc. to the detriment of Wikipedia. These policies definitely need work, but I'm not so sure that this proposal is a good way to start. North8000 ( talk) 11:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't follow what the proposals are because there are too many words. Scott has posted 124 times in four days and Wikid 26 times in six days, mostly long posts, so it's impossible to follow the key points. Can one of you say very succinctly (two sentences) what the concern is? Less really is more when it comes to policies and their talk pages. :) SlimVirgin talk contribs 21:54, 17 April 2010 (UTC)