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Does anyone know / can recommend similar sites like Wikipedia where OR is allowed (and yes I know all about uncyclopedia thanks). Magic Pickle 20:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Isn't this policy redundant? What's covered here that's not covered by WP:V? Matt Yeager ♫ ( Talk?) 05:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I have a question, If I found something in a computers registery that is a default value that I didn't change and could possible be put in a trivia section of an article. Does it count as original research until I can find a publication that mentions it? SleepyDan 22:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I am the author of an article on Lipotes Vexillifer which has been published in a well-known scientific journal. Does the OC rule prevent me using material from that article in the Lipotes Vexillifer Wikipedia article even though no-one else would have such a restriction in using said material? Knight of Ashitaka 22:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure I agree with all of WP:NOR's tenets. In particular, I feel that primary sources, comprehensively and evenly summarized, ought to be able to stand for themselves. A review of a secondary source is a review of a review, so to speak, and even "competent scholars" are sometimes biased. — Rickyrab | Talk 06:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit puzzled too. For example I added, to a very short article about the Indian town of Palampur, the fact that paraglider pilots often land there. I know this because I have seen it happen -- in fact, I've done it myself. Adding that fact makes the article about Palampur a tiny bit more useful. Should I not have done it?
Ah yes, but do print encyclopaedias (in general) have hundreds of footnotes for each entry? No. Magic Pickle 20:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
K, so i get what is original research but what does one do if one comes across it? like in Examination of Holocaust denial, which is up for deletion, most of the people agree that it is Original research but the high quality of that research could further benefit wikipedia. What should oyu do in this situation?/?? Xlegiofalco 00:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
What about the issue of translations? To extensively quote a published translation can be a violation of copyright, while a contributor may very well have the expertise to translate an important foreign work. Certainly in many cases it would not be difficult for readers to verify the reliability of a translation by comparing it to published translations. A great deal of Eastern philosophy is only accessible via translation and it would be very useful to quote extensive passages in translation. Not all translations require "original research," only technical expertise. I think this distinction of original research is not as clear cut as many believe as any good article requires a degree of synthesis and original thinking. Rthrelfall 05:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
At one point the article contained the paragraph "Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."
I gather that the first sentence was removed deliberately, but what about the rest? Was it removed by mistake? I can't find any discussion of it in the archives. User:Ben Standeven as 70.246.221.36 01:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) My understanding is that 'Original Research' is to be avoided, while summarizing and/or describing existing research, which was verifiably published in a reputable publication, is allowed. IOW, the distinction is that while WP editors can certainly present research, they cannot create it from scratch - they are only allowed to summarize and describe research that has already been published elsewhere. Crum375 23:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The above comment seems to be in relation to this clarification I made that SlimVirgin reverted. I altered "This entire paragraph" to "The first sentence of this paragraph", since the rest of the paragraph did not seem to be OR. It was a statement about the Chicago Manual of Style that is (I presume) verifiably true or false and can't possibly be OR:
Surely it is less confusing to clarify exactly which part of the paragraph is OR? It was not a change of policy. -- Michael C. Price talk 08:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This material has been around for a very long time, and presumably reflects a wide consensus:
Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.
In some cases, where an article (1) makes descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims, a Wikipedia article may be based entirely on primary sources (examples would include apple pie or current events), but these are exceptions.
Somehow they got lost this autumn. I feel they provide an important safety valve for WP:NOR, because without them there is no positive statement about what is allowed, only what is excluded. This can lead to editors invoking NOR for almost any summary they don't agree with.
For instance, if somebody is summarizing, I don't know, a cartoon or sitcom episode, and it has a very obvious Shakespeare reference, say Juliet on the balcony, then an editor ought to be able to make that connection and have it be left alone. But without those paragraphs, another editor could argue that the mention of Shakespeare was a "thesis" and therefore OR.
So, I'm reinserting those long-standing policies. Cool? Squidfryerchef 01:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
There's been a lot of discussion about the "synthesis" example and whether parts of it aren't really OR. I think that it's not so cut-and-dried, and if written a slightly different way, it would not be OR. How would you all feel about this?:
Mr. X, who wrote an article in a particular scholarly journal, was accused of plagiarism when it was discovered that he had copied a list of references from another journal article. However, accepted definitions of plagiarism vary; while the Detroit Style Guide ( I'm making these up ) says that any reference cited must actually be used in the text, the Cleveland Style Guide says that this is an acceptable way to create a working bibliography
It's my opinion that this is just good scholarship, not OR. It should be OK to bring in supplemental information like this, as long as it is only used to compare and contrast. For example, "plagiarism" is a very strong word, and it benefits the reader to have a clear definition of what Mr. X is being accused of. Squidfryerchef 01:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The form of Squid's text is "SoAndSo was accused of plagiarism but his guilt is unclear since there are multiple definitions." That is clearly an opinion so it has to be sourced to a reliable source. But the only source given for this opinion is Squid, so it's OR without a doubt. The OR here is not the bringing of multiple definitions of plagiarism, but the application of them by Squid to judge the guilt of SoAndSo. -- Zero talk 14:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The synthesis example seems to be taken from Talk:Alan_Dershowitz#The_debate_with_Norman_Finkelstein. But that version differs in one important way. In it, the reference to the Chicago Manual of Style is attributed to "James O. Freedman, the former president of Dartmouth College, the University of Iowa, and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences". In other words, the example isn't original research at all, because it is attributed to a source (James O. Freedman), and the source, not the Wikipedia editor, has drawn the conclusion. Ken Arromdee 15:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Mr X states "I have proven the world is flat, since otherwide people at the antipodes would fall off." (Mr X Speaks, Dutton & Co, 2002) Newton addressed this issue in his work De Principia Antipodiasticus when he said "... people at the antipodes will not fall off..." Wjhonson 17:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I agree with Michael C. Price. A simple logical deduction should not be considered original research. That's one of the problems with the original research policy; it puts editors in a situation where saying "city A is west of city B" is original research when the source says "city B is east of city A". Deciding whether something meets a dictionary definition is straightforward enough that calling it original research stretches the policy beyond all usefulness.
To state that "according to the Chicago Manual of Style, Jones isn't a plagiarist" is wrong not because applying the definition to Jones is OR, but rather because the Chicago Manual of Style isn't an authority on Jones. It wouldn't matter if the CMoS gave a definition or directly said "Jones isn't a plagiarist". It's unacceptable either way, even though the second version clearly isn't original research. It's a reliable sources problem. (Of course, the version sourced to the former president of Dartmouth isn't either one.)
I wouldn't count the Newton example because Mr. X doesn't claim his theory follows Newton's Laws to begin with, so you'd have to say "Mr. X's theory would not follow Newton's Laws, because...." You can't decide for the reader that Newton's Laws must be accepted.
If you did word it that way, whether it's OR would depend on whether the conclusion that the theory violates Newton's Laws is a simple deduction. In the "Jones" example, people would argue that the Chicago Manual of Style's definition isn't relevant--not about whether Jones meets the definition. If whether Jones meets the definition can't reasonably be disputed, then it's a simple deduction like deducing that a city is east of a city in the west, and not OR. Likewise, if Mr. X's theory is so inconsistent with Newton's Laws that anyone could see it after a five second glance at Newton's Laws without knowing anything of them, it's not OR to call it inconsistent. If you could only determine that Mr. X's theory violates Newton's Laws by following an entire argument (even an argument in another work from Newton), then it would be OR and you'd have to use the "Newton addressed the issue in..." formulation.
Unfortunately, a lot of people disagree with me. However, you might want to check out the proposed Wikipedia:Attribution, which allows simple deductions. (It also uses the Dershowitz/Jones example in a FAQ, though.) Ken Arromdee 17:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Please could someone (or somemany) take a look at the discussion on Talk:Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars and the edits on the corresponding article. The article has been tagged as containing original research for as long as I've known so I went on a cull, removing anything that was obviously original research. Another user has now decided that my edits are too extreme and has reverted parts of it - and just added more original research tags. Can anyone provide some insight into what should be done? I am pretty sure that we aren't supposed to have sentences saying things like It is as of yet unknown if the race has also been officially designated as "the Scrin", or indeed if they effectively even are the Scrin. Thanks in advance! - Localzuk (talk) 17:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
It's been a very interesting discussion. Im wondering how these guidelines would be received:
- Just because the facts "A is a B" and "B is a C" are each asserted in reliable sources, does not by itself allow us to claim that "A is a C" ( this is a paraphrase of the "synthesis" paragraph ).
- Logical inferences that are made to advance a thesis are not allowed. For example, a literature term paper is OR just as a science experiment or a journalistic interview is OR. It is acceptable, however, to compare and contrast several points of view provided the other guidelines are met.
- Sources used in logical inferences are held to a higher standard than simply being reliable. They must also be an authority on the subject. This doesn't mean they have to be an authority on the main subject of the article, but to use a source for "A is a B", it must be an authoritative source on A or B.
- If there are several conflicting authoritative sources on the subject, the editor should not cherry-pick one that best supports an inference.
- There is an exemption for "general knowledge" inferences. Otherwise, ( here's a tip of the pen ) saying "city A is west of city B" would be original research when the source says "city B is east of city A". The only facts required to make that inference would be a lexicon that west is the opposite of east.
- I was told once that general knowledge, in a research paper, encompasses anything you might find in an encyclopedia. Obviously this definition wouldn't do for us. General knowledge for our purposes might be material included in a children's dictionary, encyclopedia, atlas, etc.
- It is permissible, but by no means necessary, to include a reference for a general-knowledge inference.
- The flip side of the "general knowledge" guideline is that if a source asserts that "A is a B", but uses an unconventional definition of what a B is, that is, one that contradicts the popular definition of what a B entails, then the editor is encouraged to compare and explain this usage of B.
- What constitutes "advancing a thesis" depends in part on whether opinion is involved, if there is a chain of inferences involved, or simply on the length of the synthesized material.
- Adding items to categories, "See also" lists of internal links, and deciding which sources to cite do not count as "advancing a thesis". Otherwise we could get into meta-meta situations where you need a source just to cite a source. This does not mean to enourage "listcruft"; what belongs in a list is subject to consensus, and some things do and don't belong. However, WP:NOR is not the right policy to settle such discussions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Squidfryerchef ( talk • contribs) 04:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC).
Every now and then I see someone respond to a talk page comment by saying the WP:NOR applies as much to talk pages as it does articles. However, that does not appear to be the case, and there is occasionally good reason to post original research on the talk page of an article for feedback as a means of later improving the article.
For example, let's say you uncover additional information for an article, or an error in the article, through your own original research. It would not be appropriate to simply edit the article using what you found. However, it would be appropriate to post your information on the article's talk page and ask if any other editors are aware of a published reference duplicating what you found. If a verifiable reference can be found by another editor for your original research, then it could be included in the actual article.
Thus WP:NOR does not fully apply to talk pages as it does actual article pages. Original research on a talk page can be ok provided it's done in the proper context of attempting to solicit additional verifiable cited information for the article itself. Dugwiki 17:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be some disagreement about our model verifier and some confusion over the import of phrasing. The concept seems to owe something to the Common Law notion of a "reasonable man," sometimes now called a "reasonable person." This fictitious person possesses the knowledge and discretion that we commonly expect of a capable adult.
Similarly, Wikipedia policies such as Verifiability and NOR are based on the concept of a reasonable editor. This fictitious person possesses a reasonable level of knowledge, an accurate concept of logic, and is comparatively free of bias. It is therefore appropriate to term this a "reasonable adult," since Wikilawyers are typically less skilled than actual lawyers, and may not otherwise understand that a modicum of education is being assumed.
Despite what at least one editor has expressed, so phrasing things implies neither that all adults are reasonable nor that all children are not. Robert A.West ( Talk) 19:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that there is a major gap in both the no origial research and verifiability policies when it comes to mathematical equations. There was a recent debate at full moon cycle and The village pump that brought up several good issues. Two questions that need to be addressed are: (1) Do all equations need to be "citable", that is, found in a "reputable" source? And (2) How much can you "change" an equation before it becomes original research, or is used out of context?
I would like to propose a few topics that should be considered for inclusion in both policies:
While the above two rules might be considered to be too restrictive by some, please consider the following: If you are truly summarizing previous work, why would you have to make more than "trivial" changes to the equations and constants? If the constants do indeed need to be updated, then I would propose using the old (verifiable) ones, and mentioning in the text that these are could be out of date. Lunokhod 17:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see how applying basic, elementary school mathematics(like the first two examples in part 2) to a particular form of an equation constitutes original research. Such manipulations do not consitute publishable results on their own; no scientist would take these results as being original unless a novel interpretation is then brought to bear. I would say that original research introduces new concepts or relationships which have not been previously considered or cannot be independently verified by a typical reader. Performing algebraic manipulations simply reorganizes known relationships and can be easily verified by the so-called "reasonable adult". Is there some particular reason(or example) why you have drawn the line on OR in this way? (BTW, I agree that 3rd item in part 2 is probably OR) - Joshua Davis 18:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I generally support Lunokhod's efforts, but his proposal is too harsh. Lunokhod is trying to solve a problem seen in both full moon cycle and Halley's Comet, where amateurs used existing equations to create their own astronomical tables of object positions (epheremeses), which they subsequently added to Wikipedia. These calculations constitute original research; moreover, they would take me a long time to validate (and I am a professional astronomer).
However, restricting basic derivations (such as taking the square root of a simple equation) is too harsh, as virtually anyone with a high school education can validate such a calculation in less than one minute. Moreover, I would argue that some other simple calculations (such as taking averages or performing unit conversions) are needed to make Wikipedia more accessible for the general public.
As a compromise to Lunokhod's proposal, may I suggest the following:
What are other people's thoughts? (Whatever people come up with, I do not want to see people publishing astronomical epheremeses in Wikipedia.) Dr. Submillimeter 12:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is my second attempt at a policy statement concerning equations and constants. It is not as harsh as the original, and leaves sufficient vagueness to be adaptable to differing siuations. I believe that this should take care of the problem of creating new astronomical ephemerides, and could also be effective against users who attempt to insert "novel re-derivations" of a phenomenon. I have drawn the line at modifications that can be done on "the back of an envelope," but this could perhaps be made more precise by adding "(that is, containing one or two simple intermediate steps)". If you think this is suitable, feel free to change the text to your liking. Lunokhod 17:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Mathematical equations and constants are subjected to Wikipedia's No Original Research and Verifiabilitiy policies. Cited forms do not necessarily need to be exact duplicates of those found in the original text: Trivial changes such as a regrouping or reordering of terms, renaming of variables, conversion of units, or other mathematical operations that working professionals could reasonalbly perform on the back of an envelope should be expected. What is not allowed are equations that differ from their original forms by several intermediate steps (irregardless of whether each step is simple) or numerical values of constants that are not immediately relatable by a trivial operation to the original cited value. "Updated" or "improved" values of constants that have not been published by a reputable source are strictly prohibited.
IMO, the foregoing has several stylistic problems. "Subjected to" should be "subject to." The "cited form" would be the form in the published material -- I am sure what is meant that the form expressed in Wikipedia need not be the form in the citation. "Irregardless" is a portmanteau word and a pet peeve of mine. I think the back-of-the-envelope quantification and reference to a working professional is wrong -- we should be thinking of what a professor would leave as an exercise for the student, not what he would leave unexpressed when speaking with other experts. Moreover, this could be clearer on the matter of inclusion of intermediate steps that the author left out. So, here is my attempt. Robert A.West ( Talk) 17:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Equations, constants and other formulae are part of the theories they express and must satisfy Wikipedia's No Original Research and Verifiability policies. This does not mean that the expressed forms need to be exact duplicates of those found in the original text. Trivial changes, such as a regrouping or reordering of terms, renaming of variables, conversion of units and so on, are acceptable, as is explicating intermediate steps omitted by the published material. In all cases, the equivalence to published material must be immediately obvious to any working professional and a reasonable "back of the envelope" exercise for the astute student.
Submitted for your approval or merciless commentary. Robert A.West ( Talk) 17:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
One of Lunokhod's grievances is with full moon cycle, which uses numerical values for the constants of motion of the moon, and which uses more precise values than cited in the source. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Joshua Davis' reply above (I haven't read all the other replies since I last visited this discussion, but I also agree with CMummert's points). Completely novel derivations of well established subjects like statistical mechanics are usually not considered to be "original research" by the theoretical physics community and are therefore unpublishable. Wikipedia should follow this standard and allow for such novel derivations. It is important to do this, because the standard derivations you find in textbooks are often not very suitable for wikipedia.
We should not create a gap that will prevent good explanations from appearing on wikipedia. If we say that a novel derivation is original research then the idea is that one should wait until that novel derivation is published and only then it can be included in wikipedia. Well, that's simply never going to happen in e.g. this case.
So, the only reasonable standard for original research is as follows: An argument is original research if, assuming it is correct, an article based on it is publishable in a leading peer reviewed journal. I know that many contributors to the physics articles are professional physicists and many of them are referees for leading journals like Phys. Rev. (Lett.). So we have a good grasp of what is original research and what is not according to this standard.
Reasons to remove a novel derivation can be that it is actually incorrect or if it really is original research. We often say that edits by cranks that e.g. purport to show that special relativity is wrong is original research. This just means that if it were true then it would be publishable. The fact that it isn't true then doesn't matter and we can avoid having to discuss this issue with the crank editor, which saves us from a lot of trouble :) Count Iblis 01:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Count Iblis 01:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like some clarification for what constitutes primary and secondary sources. Sometimes a primary source is a great deal more informative than a secondary source; especially when the secondary source seems to be promoting an opinion. Specifically, would it be alright to use The Caddo Tribe of Oklahoma, et al., Plaintiffs, v. The United States of America, Defendants; Docket No. 226 to cite facts in an Oklahoma historical article in reference to how and why Caddos, Witchitas, etc., ended up on reservations in Oklahoma. Most secondary sources in this area are kind of opinionated, and quite a few have the facts wrong. DeepFork 16:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to all. Your comments are helpful. My conclusion is to use primary sources unless a secondary source provides a primary source for it's statements. Secondary sources that just cite another secondary source (or no source at all) would not be conclusive enough to overturn a known primary source. There seems an endless loop of secondary sources repeating seemingly faulty facts from each other. Thanks again. DeepFork 18:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion this policy can and does limited the usefulness of Wikipedia. I understand how Wikipedia is strictly an encylopedia however how is it not benefical to everyone if you include information that has not previously been documentated or recorded. An example of this is a small village school. Living in the UK in a small rural community, our local school does not have a website and there are certainly no books avalible on the subject. Is it therefore wrong for me to post information regarding the school when Wikipedia seems like the ideal place to do it?
Previously, the history of the school has remained a mystery. The structure of Wikipedia is so that such an article would be perfect for people to contribute their knowledge of the school to and while the factuality of the information may be doubtful, i'm sure there is some kind of disclaimer or tag that can be put over this. If not then how about a new one. "There is no documented evidence to support this". The infomation would be in the best interst to everyone, isn't it better that there is some disputable information there than none at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
I'm caught on this, as I can see a few others are (adding information about a school is not "random data" btw). This policy was brought to my attention when the use of an 'unreliable' website as a source was disputed in Talk:Inheritance. The website in question is [2], which I admit is a fan-site (or, I should say, hate-site) and not some published journal or recognized organization. Although I agree with some of the points given against posting it as a source, a quick glance at the site is all one needs (even for those who haven't read the books) to confirm that it is indeed a reliable one; it uses common sense and arguments made are backed with facts. Just because it isn't formally published doesn't make this any less true. Just because it was written by a couple of average joes doesn't mean that they're stupid and can't say anything that's correct or, in this case, 'reliable'.
At what point should published works win out over original research, so long as it contains common sense and undeniable truths? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.89.253.231 ( talk) 01:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC).
Wouldn't deciding if something is a reputable source be original research? And as Wikipedia disallows original research (and anything not from a reputable source) this means Wikipedia would be disallowed containing any information at all. -- Huffers 01:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
<reset indenting>
The reason the determination of reliable sources is not as paradoxical as it seems on first blush are two-fold:
Hope this possibly off-topic details are useful to you. Abecedare 03:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Can we add "religious scriptures" (texts such as Bible, Koran, Vedas etc) to the list of primary sources ? I know that this should be pretty obvious, but working on the Hinduism page I have seen editors debating on what the religion really says, based on quotes culled from the scriptures. It would be useful to point out the policy that specifically states that wikipedia articles cannot be argue a position (as opposed to illustrate a position) based on such quotes. Abecedare 15:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this sentence:
Should this be reworded slightly to say something like:
Or maybe:
It's hair-splitting, but I argue that those alternatives would be more precise than "Original research excludes . . ." Any thoughts, anybody? Yours, Famspear 03:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
During a recent AfD the topic of Original Research came up, specifically the "synthesis of information" part of the policy. It was argued that citing a number of media references about a term and including them in a section titled "References in the Media" constituted synthesis, because the references made by the media were not noted by other media sources. Eventually the argument boiled down to whether or not the "mere collection of information" (my words) with no implied or directed conclusions drawn from this information constituted synthesis, thusly becoming Original Research. I have seen this same argument rasied a number of times since then.
The question I have is this: is the simple act of compiling information (say, background information on a person or place) from multiple sources without drawing any conclusions from that information a form of Original Research? My understanding of the policy is that provided there is no new conclusion created (implicitly or explicitly) by comparing or combining pieces of information it does not qualify. To paraphrase the example in the policy, if the text includes "A" and "B", so long as there is no "C" it is not Original Research. (After all, 99% of Wikipedia is a compilation of information from numerous sources)
Regardless of whether or not my understanding of the policy is correct, I believe that the article needs to be much more clear on this point. (e.g. a bolded sentence that states "the mere collection of information with no expressed or implied conclusions from that information (is/is not) synthesis." Thoughts? -- Y|yukichigai 20:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
An additional thought: perhaps the second use of the word "synthesis" should be removed from the text. (Provided my interpretation of the policy is correct) I think many people are getting confused by the fact that the definition of synthesis, combined with the way the policy is written, would seem to indicate that they can only use a combination of sources that somebody else has used before. Perhaps it should be changed to something like:
"It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or particular case to a reputable source;" (changed words in bold)
Further thoughts? -- Y|yukichigai 22:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm the one who was brought up the "Detroit" and "Cleveland" examples in an effort to tone down the "Synthesis" example. I think there needs to be a counterexample, not "Neutral Original Research", but just good research. Because the "plagiarism" example is pretty mild OR, without a counterexample editors could infer that almost anything is OR.
This is OR: "Mr. X was accused of plagiarism...copied list of sources.... But because the Chicago Manual of Style does not consider this plagiarism, Mr. X did not commit plagiarism."
This, in my opinion, is not OR: "Mr. X was accused of plagiarism...copied list of sources.... However, it should be noted that academic authorities, such as the XYZ manual of style and the AQRS citation guide, are divided on whether this is considered plagiarism." This does not make any inferences, but some editors feel this is OR perhaps because of the proximity of sources. We can't get into a snake-eating-its-own-tail situation of only allowing combinations of sources that have been cited before.
What if it was: "Mr. X was accused of plagiarism in North Korea. However, it should be noted that bibliographic standards there are very different from those in the U.S. and Britain." Squidfryerchef 01:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
At the moment we have a sentence which says:
I suggest that it is removed, because:
Enchanter 11:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Pardon me for intruding, but a question has come up lately on a WP page about an organization which has changed its Mission Statement. The current Mission Statement from that organization is cited in the article, and all editors seem satisfied with that. It is common on WP pages describing organizations to consider their history, which in this case requires some way of showing what their Mission Statement was for the first half of that organization's ten year history. This should, I would think, be straightforward due to the Wayback machine, in which this organization's previous Mission Statement has been found, and has been similarly quoted from with a solid citation to the Wayback machine (showing the path to the organization). There is no dispute that the citation is accurate, or that the citation points to the same organization.
Unfortunately there are a couple of editors for that page who are, I believe, misunderstanding the meaning of OR, when they state that this citation to the same organization's Mission Statement from the Wayback machine (web.archive.org) cannot be used since it is "WP:OR". Their argument is apparently that a citation to the web.archive.org page cannot be made, and that a reference to the organization's previous Mission Statement can be made ONLY if it is quoting some researcher or journalist who has written an article in a major publication that has pointed out that the Mission Statement has changed.
Frankly this seems plain ridiculous to me (and possibly an example of wikilawyering), but this well-cited section has been removed repeatedly in an edit war, and I am looking for opinions here from the editors of this OR page who are well acquainted with the OR guideline and can hopefully help me make a persuasive argument that OR is not meant to limit citations to ONLY published literature. Surely a citation from the Wayback machine is not only acceptable, but should be encouraged, since it is less subjective than a researcher's or journalist's statement, no matter how NPOV that researcher or journalist may be?
If the Wayback machine is as reliable a source as I believe it to be, would it be possible to add a reference to its use in the WP:OR page to make it clear that citing it directly is encouraged when it helps to illustrate a historical point? Or do you think it would be better to put a reference to the Wayback machine into the WP:RS page? Any ideas are welcome. Thank you, Jgui 04:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Yukichigai, please don't change the policy. Can you say here, please, what your edit means? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
On a side issue, these are my observations on the policy wording:
I think these wordings might be the substantive source of the problems noted by Yukichigai. The issue on OR is the idea's novelty, it's not relevant to novelty whether the idea is also favored or otherwise by some editor. FT2 ( Talk | email) 08:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems my stringent interpretation is a minority view. Can we discuss one final example, and I will then accommodate my view of synthesis to what you say. Here is the example...
The New York Times reports that Mr. X has been accused of Plagiarism in North Korea. However, according to the Korean Academic Citation Manual, the concept of plagiarism is "different in North Korea from that of the Americans".
So, assuming there are no secondary sources who defend Mr. X using the Korean Academic Citation Manual, do you prefer a Wikipedia that adds the extra sentence of analysis or one that only follows what has been published in secondary sources? Let's take a poll, I go first:
Essentially to reset indentation :). The example that tries to get to the core of the issue:
The New York Times reports that Mr. X has been accused of Plagiarism in North Korea. According to the Korean Academic Citation Manual, the concept of plagiarism is "different in North Korea from that of the Americans".
As I said above, I think this is WP:SYNT, and here I hope to see people telling me that I'm right or wrong. Well I hope people telling me I'm right, but I would also be glad if people told me I'm wrong, and then we could include this to the policy as a positive example of not being original research. Opinions? -- Merzul 22:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Still, let's get legalistic again... My question is if you all agree that the following example is equivalent to the current example used in the policy?
Smith says that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another book. The Chicago Manual of Style does not call the copying of references plagiarism.
So let's forget about the issue of this being OR or not. The question is only if this is equivalent? Meaning has this less precise reformulation also removed the violation of SYNT? -- Merzul 19:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
What about this one?
Smith says that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another book. Jones denies this, and says it's acceptable scholarly practice to use other people's books to find new references. The Chicago Manual of Style requires citation of the source actually consulted, but does not call violating this rule "plagiarism." Instead, plagiarism is defined as using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them.
I don't see how this can violate any other policy, it is both relevant and neutral, unless any other style manual has a different definition, and let's assume they don't. If this is not synthesis, I will add this to the policy page as an example of removed synthesis, and if it is synthesis I will replace the current confusing examples. In either case, I will put this example into the policy, but YOU will decide, if this is or is not SYNT. -- Merzul 21:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The issue, IMO, is simply that NOR also includes 'NOJ' - No Original Juxtaposition. That means that we may not juxtapose items together and thereby create a new implication. If the juxtaposition and the implication can be properly attributed to a reliable source, we are covered. Otherwise, we are not. Crum375 01:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
check) 08:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. [1] A and B, implies C is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article.
Here is an example from a Wikipedia article, with the names changed. The article was about Jones:
Smith says that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another book. Jones denies this, and says it's acceptable scholarly practice to use other people's books to find new references.
That much is fine. Now comes the unpublished synthesis of published material:
The Chicago Manual of Style requires citation of the source actually consulted, but does not call violating this rule "plagiarism." Instead, plagiarism is defined as using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them.
This paragraph is original research, because it expresses the editor's opinion that, given the Chicago Manual of Style's definition of plagiarism, Jones did not commit it. To make the paragraph consistent with this policy, a reliable source is needed that specifically comments on the Smith and Jones dispute and makes the same point about the Chicago Manual of Style and plagiarism. In other words, that precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source in relation to the topic before it can be published in Wikipedia.
So is this still SYNT? If the regulars agree with this, then I see no reason why you prefer the official version. (Except the fear of abuse). The reason I hate the official version is that everybody knows the first sentence is original research, so it really distracts from understanding what synthesis is! -- Merzul 03:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I just want to make it clear that it is me, Merzul, who is behind this conspiracy to clarify the synthesis example. Now, maybe I can state what I'm asking more clearly as two questions that can be more or less answered one after the other:
Thank you for your attention, I will now take the advice above and edit the encyclopedia for a change :) Still, I believe that I have a point, so it is hard to just leave this, but I'll try, so good bye! -- Merzul 16:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
On Talk:Persian Gulf naming dispute there is a drawn-out on-going dispute. The article Persian Gulf naming dispute contains a cartographic gallery displaying sixteen historical maps in which the Persian Sea is labelled "Persian Gulf" in various variations and languages. This bolsters the claim, implied by the text of the article, that "Persian Gulf" is the time-honoured name for this body of water, and that the name "Arabian Gulf" has not been used for it before the rise of Arab nationalism in the sixties.
Some editors want to include a few historical maps like the one shown here, which – at least in their view – show that occasionally the label "Arabian Gulf" has been applied earlier to this body of water. Other editors oppose this. They maintain that the interpretation that the label "Arabian Gulf" on the map is applied there to the body of water generally known as the Persian Gulf – and not, for example, to the (nearby) Shatt al-Arab river – without support by "textual evidence" (a published text stating that the label on the map refers to this body of water) is original research and therefore not allowed.
The issue is of course much more general than just these maps; it may apply to all text on an image, and also to the interpretation of what is further depicted on an image. For example, for the map here: does the body of water on the map in which we see the text Sinus Arabicus show the Persian Gulf, and not the Arabian Sea? Is this assumption warranted without support from a citable source? How should the requirement of "no original research" be construed in cases like this? Is it correct to consider inclusion of these maps without support by further "textual evidence" a form of OR? What about the maps that are included in the gallery of Persian Gulf naming dispute? -- Lambiam Talk 06:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I just tried putting them back, since the one most in contention is clearly sourced, as above. I was reverted in ten minutes. Frankly, I think more severe action may be warranted. We have no business presenting an article which refuses to acknowledge sourced evidence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
All great writing, all good writing is without exception based on originality. If originality is removed from the equation, it is the same as just feeding the subject into some sort of computer search engine and have the computer spit out some bits and bytes and there is Wikipedia. But there are good articles in Wikipedia and without exception, these are created in spite of this rule not because of it. It is not possible to have a good article without originality, it just cannot be done. Throughout history in every case of good writing, the spark has been originality.
On controversial subjects this rule is even more of a disaster. There are all sorts of bad and rude idiotic ideas published and verified, and what is there to refute all this rubbish? It would be far better to let both sides present their strongest argument and let the reader decide the truth. This would insure that both sides of the argument get a fair hearing which is not now the case on Wikipedia.
It must also be remembered that this article is itself completely and totally originally research and its claims that this policy works are not shown by Wikipedia itself. Perhaps the strongest proof that this policy is a failure is that in so many articles the pictures are of far greater quality than the prose. This is very likely because the prose is far more restricted by this policy than the pictures.
I am surprised by the overall low quality of Wikipedia, and it certainly cannot be because of lack of effort. It must be bad policy. 01001 03:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
At the article Persian Gulf naming dispute, someone has gathered a collection of 16 maps that call the Persian Gulf the "Persian Gulf", apparently (?) in an effort to argue that this is the proper name. When maps with the name "Arabian Gulf" were added, they were removed multiple times. The issue was raised by Lambian above, but few people commented on it. It seems to me that the entire article has a WP:SYNT overtone, but especially the maps section. I am wrong? CMummert · talk 03:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I promise this is the last edit I make to a policy page, and I apologize for being so cheeky, but I simply couldn't leave this issue without at least having tried my best to clarify the issue. The reasons for making that change:
If this too is reverted, I will gracefully accept it. I'm actually thankful that my stubbornness has been tolerated this far, and will not push it any further, but I am curious why this issue is not clarified on the policy page. -- Merzul 17:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
When I said I would gracefully accept reverts, I didn't expect something as childish as "please don't change the original; it's a real example". Fine, I'm leaving. -- Merzul 17:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I fully apologize for my above stunts, but I think I have at least understood the policy myself. Now, I consider the following as original research:
However, I am still unable to say why the following material from a featured article is not original research:
This is synthesizing the sources to make the implicit claim that the forest recreational guide are slightly exaggerating the numbers, yet in some sense this is more acceptable. I can only think that this is because the editors found this more neutral/innocent. Maybe one can also draw the distinction between an analysis at the tertiary level (presenting different secondary sources neutrally) and the secondary level (presenting contradictions in primary sources), but I'm not sure how to define that properly... Maybe since the issue is so difficult, it is better to keep the policy ambiguous. -- Merzul 19:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The section on synthesis supports the statement:
with the footnote:
I think this is misleading. This part of the policy is not directly based on this statement, (or any other statement by Jimmy, to my knowledge) - it was written by Wikipedians themselves, like most parts of policy. Where a statement is cited with a footnote, the reader has the right to assume that the statement is directly based upon the footnote, not a creative interpretation of it. Enchanter 22:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm currently translating this project page into Dutch for NL-Wikipedia, but I'm sort of stuck... There's one word in Jimmy Wales' text that I just don't know. Google and loads of dictionaries weren't able to help me either, so here I am asking for your assistance.
See Wikipedia:No original research#Neutral point of view (NPOV): "If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research."
Does he mean ancilliary or ancillary here? And what exactly does he mean? Don't worry, I do not expect Dutch translations ;) but what I would appreciate is some sort of paraphrase or alternative for this specific word so I know what to use in my Dutch version.
Thanks!
Kind regards,
Erik1980
21:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
(
nl:Gebruiker:Erik1980 --
Dutch talk page)
Thanks for your explanation, I'll add this section to the Dutch version immediately! Erik1980 20:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please take a look at what I believe is a perfect example of unacceptable synth here ?
A user called "Big Brother 1984" has recently come into the article Heaven with a very militant attitude and has concocted a new section on "The atheist view of heaven". The problem is that in order to concoct "the atheist view of heaven", he has synthesized a string of citations for support, that consist of quotes from various literary authors taken completely out of context, such as Edward Gibbon and George Orwell - neither of whom was writing on behalf of atheism in the quotes in question, and neither of whom was ever known to have been an atheist, nor any kind of spokesperson for atheism. As far as I can tell, this synthesis of disparate quotes from non-atheists, who were not talking about atheism or purporting to give an "atheist point of view", in order to create the "atheist view of Heaven" is a completely novel invention of his own. On the talk page, he refuses to acknowledge that it is a novel synthesis - even though he acknowledges that Gibbon and Orwell were each criticising governmental misuse of state-controlled religion, rather than the theological concept of Heaven per se: all secondary analyses agree that Gibbon was really criticising the pagan Roman Empire, while Orwell was criticising Stalinism, in the quotes in question - and certainly not formulating any "atheist doctrine", as he has done with these quotes. He has engaged in a revert war with me now for the past week, and at one point he peppered the rest of the article with gratuitous "fact" tags after I reverted him. Aside from that, I also have issues with undue, disproportionate weight now being given to the "atheist view of heaven" in an article about explaining the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist, and other concepts of Heaven - it just seems needlessly confrontational. ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 22:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
This article's nutshell currently reads: "Articles may not contain any unpublished arguments, ideas, data, or theories; or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position." This is confusingly written, and I believe it's not a very good nutshell. I tried changing it to "Wikipedia articles may only contain information that's been published in other sources," but that was reverted. I'd like community help on coming up with a better nutshell for this policy. - Brian Kendig 23:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The section on synthesis is logically incoherent along with just plain being incoherent. Arguably the first sentence in any article is a synthesis, simply by choosing it as the first sentence. But any sentence after the first sentence must logically be a synthesis that advances a position. For any statement after the first statement can be any number of an infinite number of statements. And any change in any statement will change the meaning of the article to a greater or lesser extent,i.e, will serve to advance a position. Therefore, by this rule the whole of Wikipedia is breaking its own rules.
Of course there must be rules to enforce the veracity of this encyclopedia, but these rules here are written so strictly as to truly be meaningless. The rules as stated here must be broken for any article to be written.
This article here is also breaking the rules for NPOV. Any set of rules must have an upside and a downside, and certainly a discussion as to why a set of rules is chosen over another set of rules must be included in this article. Or somewhere that is clearly linked to this article if this article is to truly have any validity. 01001 20:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Some friendly advice to 01001: Look, Wikipedia has a body of policies and guidelines that has been fine tuned by hundreds of editors over an extended period of time. Sure, we can always fine tune them a bit more, adjust here and there as necessary, etc., but make no mistake: the framework upon which Wikipedia stands works and has enabled us to create one of the most important encyclopedias in the world, based on that framework that you have chosen to criticize (I have seen your posts at WP:V and other policies.) So, my advice to you is: If you like the way Wikipedia works, great, your contributions are most welcome and while you are at it, your suggestions on how to improve our policies is welcome as well But if you don't, rather than attempt to change the system to your liking, you may want to try other wikis such as Wikiinfo or Citizendium. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra railway line, Sydney has many scheduled trains per day, which go from stopping only at some more major stations to stopping at all stations. Is it original research to pick some of these as the primary ones and call the others variations, when the timetables don't do anything of the sort? ( Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra railway line, Sydney#Stopping patterns) -- NE2 07:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I've resently have had a section I wrote deemed original research. I have pics to show the proof of what I wrote. My question is:
Can something that has pics (like of a comic book, TV show screen and along that line) to show proof still be deemed original research?
"THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 02:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
its on Tokyo_Mew_Mew#Ribbon_translation_error, I really dont want to explain it, as I'm kinda tired of doing so, and I'm kinda sleepy. In a short, I used the pics to show the difference between the katakana to show there is a difference. I didnt draw any conclusions or whatever.
"THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 02:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I should say it is possibly correct as opposed to say its right is A.) The other mangas shows it "reborn", such as B.) asked my Japanese teacher just to be sure, as she a native speaker C.) Tokyopop is knowns for its typos, translation errors n such, so that kinda destroys their creditiblity D.) MANY vandals have tried to delete it, and I'm afraid once they see I said is "possibly the correct translation", ti will probaly lead them to vandalze, such as POV statements, blanking it, etc.
Getting sources is what I can do for sure. Thanks for the advice! "THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 23:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi - I'm curious what people here think of the discussion that has begun on talk:Ido. A user has decided to enforce policy there but since population estimates are so entrenched that simply enforcing WP:NOR won't do anything for the other pages on other IALs, both in English and pretty much every other language. Adding to the problem is a lot of mutual intelligibility between IALs - thanks to learning Ido I can read and write Esperanto, Novial, etc. and for all I know might count as a speaker of those as well depending on the definition. Making it even more difficult is the political nature of the movement - often 'number of speakers' means 'number of supporters' because people will choose to only use the language they feel to be the best even if they speak and understand another one. What to do? Mithridates 03:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Some 2nd person "you" references were just cleaned-up from the WP:CCC text merged into WP:CON because they stuck out like a sore thumb after the merge. This policy article is written almost entirely in the 2nd person, almost like a how-to. Does anyone else think this is inappropriate? Dhaluza 03:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Can I upload a short clip of backwards messages found in songs in the List of backmasked messages? The clips would, of course, be reversed versions of the original sections. And the existence of the backwards messages would be documented by reliable sources.
My tenative theory is that, since audio seems to generally fall under the same standards as images (for example, {{ Music sample}} is in Category:Non-free image copyright tags), a short reversed sample would be similar to an image in being exempt from the Original Research policy. Of course, it would still have to meet the restrictions at Wikipedia:Music samples. Λυδαcιτγ 20:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Certainly there is a place for an internet encyclopedia that we can all contribute. Wikipedia has filled that void and has now achieved a monopoly position there. The success of Wikipedia does not validate the original research policy. What would happen if the OR restriction was removed entirely?
Clearly, as pointed out previously the OR policy is logically invalid. It is hard to believe that Wikipedia needs to rely on a logically absurd policy. How could the policy be changed to be logically valid?
How is one to refute verified nonsense without OR?
Lastly, if we have a physics article where we have two sides of a right triangle can we infer the length of the third side? 01001 04:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
The nutshell had an unfortunate example of a double negative, so I reworked it into a bulleted list to try to make it more clear. The IP edit source was an accident since I did not realize my login timed out. Dhaluza 11:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to establish the limits of the rules about synthesis of published material. This is relevant to discussions going on at Talk:Controversy over criticism of Quebec society.
I'll use a fabricated example which may seem stupid, but definitive answers to which would help me understand the limits of the policy: There are articles on Wikipedia about each of the Canadian provinces, each reporting its (properly sourced) surface area. A user reads all these reports and concludes that Quebec is the largest province. If he adds a sentence to the article about Quebec stating that it is the largest province, but without providing a source, is that original research? To me, the plagiarism example clearly implies that it would be. John FitzGerald 18:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the prompt answer. I'm afraid I find these issues rather thorny, so i have follow-ups. First of all, I'm not saying a source couldn't be found; I want to know if one need be found. If the criterion is being "clear, well defined, and non-controversial," I do not understand what is unclear, poorly defined, or controversial about the statement:
This statement is described in the article as original research. The statement seems abundantly clear and well defined to me, and any possible controversy can be resolved by consulting the Chicago Manual of Style. Furthermore, a secondary source is no more likely to be accurate about this issue than is a group of Wikipedia users who consult the manual.
I'm not trying to be difficult about this. I already am grateful for your statement of these criteria. I also understand perfectly your examples of other issues that would involve people in original research, and agree with you about them. John FitzGerald 21:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Since Canada has 10 provinces, not 13, the dangers of original research may have been made apparent by your post; I'll assume it's a typo, although people sometimes think Nunavut, NWT, and YT are provinces. In general, though, I agree with you. However, as I read it, the policy doesn't. Comparing sizes is inference. My concern is that the policy is too restrictive as written, and it is being interpreted too restrictively by some people (the discussion page i have already linked to provides examples). It also seems to me that your nightmare of articles consisting of "series of disjointed quotes" is becoming real. It seems to me the limits of this policy need to be specified more clearly. John FitzGerald 16:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Nut Wikipedia is not written by or for fourth-graders. The only judgment required in the example – it seems to me – is whether a citation was provided or not. Obviously it doesn't seem like that to you. As I've said, the problem is that the policy needs to be clearer. As it stands, i would say the great majority of Wikipedia's articles constitute original research according to this policy.
One idea I have had – which well might not work, which is why I'm mentioning it here – is to let inferences like this stand until either disproven or demonstrated by discussion on the talk page to be questionable. My experience here suggests to me that people will agree to withdraw a questionable inference. John FitzGerald 13:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Guys I need your opinions urgently about NOR on an article Languages of Iran; as you will see from the history of the article and its talk page I have been told that we cannot take a calculator and add up the figures on this article and demonstrate the discrepancies because that is counted as Original research! Is this true? Is adding up the figures on a list and showing their discrepancies counted as original Research? Kiumars
I think it's inappropriate to label this OR, and especially confusing for new users to Wikipedia.
As far as I can see, the background to this is that someone noticed that the number of people in a table of speakers of different languages in Iran added up to greater than the population of Iran. This kind of research is to be encouraged - cross checking facts and figures with other sources to check that they make sense.
In my view, an appropriate response to this editor would be to look into this comment, and say something like "Thank you for pointing out this discrepancy. However, looking at the source, there's a good reason for it - the figures cover all speakers of each language, so people speaking more than one language are covered more than once." It might also be appropriate to clarify the article.
However, the actual response to this editor was to label his observation as OR. I don't think this was justified; he was doing straightforward research and fact checking, drawing no novel or contentious conclusions, and yet he was accused of violating the NOR policy, which has always been primarily aimed at keeping novel unpublished ideas out of Wikipedia.
As well as strongly discouraging original research, if we are to create a reliable encyclopedia we need to strongly encourage desirable, non-novel, unoriginal research, such as cross checking articles against multiple sources, carefully checking for reasonableness and consistency, and raising observations when facts and figures don't appear to stack up. For this reason, I think we should be very careful not to apply the NOR policy in a way that might discourage this sort of desirable research, and not to accuse editors of violating the NOR policy without good reason. Enchanter 12:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the article says: "Wikipedia is not the place for original research." I think, you should, after that, include a link to one of the Wiki projects that is the place for OR. Mausy5043 12:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
At Angie's List there's some info in the article that is unsourced speculation about the company, specifically numbers that are assumed from other numbers, numbers based on things like minimum wage and postal rates, and similar things. Also removes citation needed tags, insisting they aren't needed. Seems like blatant OR to me, but I don't want to get into a one on one situation with this editor (so far I've left most of it with citation tags, but I suspect sources don't exist for most and the claims will be deleted). Outside input would be helpful - the article is locked right now but explanation from someone else on the talk page would be helpful. Thanks. -- Milo H Minderbinder 22:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Just a note that I've edited the bit on images to reflect that manipulated images are not per se required to be listed on Images for Deletion. Only when the manipulation materially affects the encyclopedic value of the image should we be concerned. If there's a photo of a flower for example, it's normally considered acceptable (according to WP community consensus) to do things like alter saturation levels, exposure timing, and perhaps even artificially blur out the background to simulate shallow depth of field. On the other hand, it would be unacceptable to do things like fundamentally change the color of the flower (red -> yellow, etc.), remove or add important parts of the flower, and other things that would improperly represent the "reality" of the flower. There have been many lengthy discussions about the appropriateness of various and specific manipulations at WP:FPC, and anyone with questions may wish to look there. I trust that my addition to the WP:OR page is uncontroversial, but please let me know if anyone has a problem with it. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I have found an audio sample at the Electronic voice phenomenon article. This sample, which is supposed to be of paranormal electronic voices, was recorded by two people who then self-published it on their website. According to the Original Research policy page, I think they are not a reliable source, and it is original research?- MsHyde 00:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
MsHyde I think you're confusing editors with sources. You and I are editors. The Weekly World News, and that website you're referring to are sources. The policy against original research does not apply to sources. Zero, nunca, zilch, nada, nothing. Not applicable. The policy that prohibits original research *only* applies to MsHyde and Wjhonson and others like us here in wikipedia land. WE cannot do original research. MsHyde cannot go do an EVP and post it. Some other people, let's say John Brown, who has his own website can do original research all day long and we can cite to it under certain circumstances. That is why you need to read WP:V. The first line of what policy? If it says "original research is published by unreliable sources" then I need to fix it, because that makes no sense at all. Original research can be published by reliable sources as well. When the Wall Street Journal writes an article that uses new ideas, thats original research and yet they are a reliable source. I hope the distinction is a little more clear. Wjhonson 09:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The "synthesis" section seems to be becoming contentious in relation to scientific/medical articles.
Suppose there's a situation where someone has published a medical/scientific claim that makes no sense in mainstream scientific terms (for instance, it's wildly in breach of thermodynamics or is just a meaningless usage of scientific terminology) - but no mainstream critic has yet published comment/refutal.
To what extent, if any, can one place context on the claim?
As things stand, it seems the "no synthesis" guideline is allowing non-mainstream views to be presented non-neutrally and with undue weight, since some editors are arguing that any kind of broader context counts as OR unless a specific counter-citation can be found.
Any thoughts? Tearlach 13:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
As MsHyde correctly pointed out (see abpve), the intro confuses the concepts of reliable source (part of verifiability) with original research. The two concepts are quite disjoint. A reliable source may do original research, they may also not be doing original research. As well an unreliable source may do original research, and also may not do it. All four cases are possibilities. In a truth table, they are independent variables, free to move without restraint from each other. We should not, right here on the main page, be hopelessly confusing them with each other. I have reworded the offending section to remove the issue of reliability. All questions of reliability should be place on the appropriate policy page, which isn't this one. I'm open to discussion about the matter should others disagree. Wjhonson 17:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
We're having a disagreement at Talk:Controversy over criticism of Quebec society about original research. I think to a large extent it's an argument at cross-purposes, so I will be encouraging the other people involved to post their views of the dispute here. Anyway, I raised a question about a section of the article dealing with the city of Westmount's opposition to a policy of the Quebec provincial government. This opposition was characterized by some politicians as Quebec-bashing and colonialism. My point is that it is not clear that Westmount's action constituted criticism of Quebec society, and that therefore any unsourced assumption that it does constitutes original research. Others seem to think (and I'll leave it to them to clarify whether I'm stating their argument correctly) that as long as a source can be provided showing that the accusation was made that Westmount's actions constitute criticism of Quebec society. To me that sounds like letting the accusers serve as their own verification. I think Stephen Harper wears a hairpiece, but I can't add that assertion to the article about him and then say it's verified by my claiming it's true. John FitzGerald 18:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
They're also interested people, though. I don't believe they constitute reliable sources. However, no one who is not associated with the article seems interested in commenting, so we'll probably never know. John FitzGerald 13:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Can we point out that two sources are in conflict with each other?
Let's suppose I'm in the year 2050 writing an article on the life of one Avraham Ben Yosef. Having found a reliable Source A, I claim:
"On Feb. 10, 2007, Ben Yosef made a query on the WP:NOR Talk page (Source A)."
Some time later, however, I find an equally reliable Source B that states: "Ben Yosef died on February 9, 2007, from injuries sustained in the Cuban-Indonesian war."
Can I cite both sources and point out that they conflict? For instance:
Is that possible? Or would it be OR to point out the contradiction? -- Abenyosef 18:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) The OR or synthesis in this example is in creating a novel inference in a contentious issue, that was not previously published, whereas WP is supposed to simply summarize reviews by existing sources. In this case, the novel inference is that perhaps Ben Yoseph is lying regarding his education. Nobody has previously noticed that point (and published it), it is solely WP's diligent editors who are putting 2 and 2 together, and in contentious/controversial and especially BLP related issues, this type of inference would be considered OR by synthesis and is hence not acceptable. We would still be able to include source #1, but including source #2 at that point would constitute OR. Crum375 00:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
How about if it's a simple case of two authoritative sports statistics web sites displaying conflicting information? For example, we are trying to figure out over on the Brett Favre article if the NFL.com statistic for number of passing attempts is correct, or if the profootballreference.com and Packers.com statistics are (they differ by 1). Would it be OR to make a note identifying the discrepancy? PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 19:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
If, in a Talk page, I want to argue for or against a source other editors want to include, can I do and show my O.R.? Can I argue, in the [Talk:Vector Calculus] page, against an author who writes about calculus by doing some research on his life and showing that he has never studied mathematics, but has rather spent his whole life growing rhubarbs?-- Abenyosef 19:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that the following paragraph be added to the policy:
Original research is allowed on Talk pages
The reason I suggest this to be added is that actually an awful lot of editors believe you can't do O.R. to check a source.-- Abenyosef 04:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Allow me to insist that the paragraph at the beginning of this posting be written into the Project page. The problem is that the rules are not explicit enough and there are also not enough examples. I think it would be of great help to editors to clarify that, for instance, deletion of materials based on O.R. is not wrong per se.
There is a lot of confusion with regard to O.R. on Talk pages. Some editors, either not knowing that it's allowed or feigning not to know, block other editors from suggesting or questioning sources based on their O.R. I think it's time for the policy to be clear and unequivocal about it: O.R. is allowed on Talk pages.-- Abenyosef 23:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
On the Brett Favre article, there is debate as to including a statistic concerning career number of points scored that can only be derived (as far as we can tell from available sources) by combining statistics available on a football reference site - specifically, the site does not provide the number of points outright, but rather the number of rushing and passing touchdowns scored, both of which would need to be multiplied by 6 and then summed to get the career number of points. Is this an acceptable use of verifiable data or would this be breaching WP:NOR? Thanks, PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 05:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to describe a case possibly exemplifying original research. Does it indeed constitute original research?
Suppose there's a Wikipedia category listing some languages. A statement has been made in some Wikipedia article, that all languages on the list show a certain linguistic trait. However, the article cites no source for the claim. For each of the listed languages, the Wikipedia article about it states that the language it deals with shows the trait, and cites a reliable source for this claim. Does the unsourced statement constitute original research for the purposes of Wikipedia?
The actual incident that's triggered my interest in this question is described next. I've read a sentence in the Hebrew Wikibook for teaching Arabic, that states that Arabic is nowadays the only Semitic language with a case system. Looking for proof of this claim, i came to the English Wikipedia article Semitic languages, where it states: "The proto-Semitic three-case system [...] has disappeared everywhere in the [...] Semitic languages, although Modern Standard Arabic maintains such case endings [...]. An accusative ending -n is preserved in Ethiopian Semitic." This statement is not sourced. I've sent a message to the authors of this statement asking them to state their source, but they haven't responded yet, and it appears they've not been active in Wikipedia for several months. I've been thinking what i could do to substantiate this claim. One possibility would be to peruse the articles about each of the Semitic languages, looking for a reliably sourced claim that the language under discussion has no case system.
Itayb 09:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's say I wanted to do a bit of research into which fighting game has the most selectable characters. Now in my opinion, this is original research that could easily be proven with a little work. It also does not seem like the kind of information one could found somewhere else to cite, at least not from a reliable source (even if reliable, it may be out of date). So if I, perhaps with the help of other Wikipedians, checked every fighting game to see which has the most, we should be able to cite ourselves, correct? I got to wondering about this after I realized that The King of Fighters Neowave has 47 selectable fighters, and was considering doing some original research into if this was the highest.
So would the following example perhaps work?
It seems to me that certain statistic type information such as this (highest, lowest, first, last, etc.) should be an exception to OR as it is information that can be undeniably proven by anyone who cares to check well enough. However, the results and process of the person's research should still be made available so that others can verify. Comments?-- SeizureDog 13:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps I should make more clear what the policy problem is here. WP:CITE says "Note: Wikipedia articles and categories cannot be used as sources in and of themselves. Sources must be independent from Wikipedia." The problem isn't the List of fighting games by number of selectable characters article, it's the Super Fighter 13 article that uses it as a source. Can I just ignore this rule?-- SeizureDog 15:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like some opinions on the Juice Plus article. It seems to be well-sourced, but some of the sources are (in my opinion) a bit dubious, such as letters to the editor, the product's distributor manual, and bottle labels. Especially since there have some studies which indicate that the bottle labels are not entirely accurate. It's my opinion that this article is straying well into the realm of original research, and I would appreciate some assistance in sorting through the claims. -- El on ka 16:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) In the citation, I would mention the URL where it can be ordered, since it is not available through the same channels as most sources (libraries and bookstores). Linking to a 3rd party site is called a convenience link. This is allowed if the 3rd party site does not appear to be violating copyright, and is not an extremist site or pushing some point of view. -- Gerry Ashton 15:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
It should be noted that in some areas the product manual is considered a reliable primary source. For example, with aircraft, the specifications and operational limits specified in the flight manual are the official numbers, and conflicting data would only be relevant under extraordinary circumstances (for example if they were contradicted in an accident board report). So product manuals should not be automatically discounted just because the manufacturer is the source. All sources need to be used with common sense. Dhaluza 00:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Never in human history has a quality work been written without original thinking. Wikipedia is no exception. Where there is quality work in Wikipedia, we find original thinking and ultimately original research. It must be so. Such has it always been and such it always will be. 01001 03:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Attribution, a proposal to subsume and replace Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research, is ready to be implemented. Please review the document and discuss any problems on the talk page. — Centrx→ talk • 23:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I have come accross a case in where an editor is resusing to accept that he has engaged in original research by drawing his own conclusions from sources. An editor of the Historical revisionism article includes two examples of historical revisionism - Serbia and the Yugoslav Wars and Macedonism - on what I see as original research.
In the case of Serbia he cites a number of Serbian language (I presume) nationalist websites plus a report from the UN about Serb war crimes to claim this as an example of historical revisionism. None of the sources state anything about Serbian historical revisionism. I see this as a clear cut case of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. The same situation applies to Macedonism, which is not supported by any sources claiming it as an example of historical revisionism. I have informed him of this and suggested that the examples be removed but he does not agree. Any comments? Anyone willing to take action (it would be better if an admin did it than if I acted as a party to the discussion)? Regards Osli73 14:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I gather that WP:ATT is now considered Policy... a merging of WP:V and WP:NOR. I have no problem with this, but I do have a concern with how this is being done. At the moment all three Policies are up and running... and this is going to lead to confusion and argument. The three policies do not completely agree with each other (or to put it more exactly, they agree with each other in surface substance, but they differ in greatly in tone and emphysis). This is especially noticable in the area of reliability of sources (especially Self-published sources - a frequent area of controversy) and how they are dealt with. Look at them side by side: WP:V#Sources, WP:NOR#Sources, WP:ATT#Reliable_sources. As a frequent contributer at WP:RS... a guideline that is supposed to help explain this particular aspect of Policy... I am seeing this conflict of tone writ large. Many of the questions we are asked involve parsing Policy statements and intent. Those of us at WP:RS agree that we need to conform what is said there to what is stated in Policy, but right now there is confusion as to which policy we should conform to. I would therefore request that, if WP:ATT is indeed confirmed as Policy, we redirect WP:V and WP:NOR to that page. If not, please move WP:ATT back to "proposed" status until the community can reach consensus. I don't care which, but we need clarity and not confusion. I have posted this request at the Village Pump Policy Page as well. Thank you. Blueboar 15:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Being bold, I have marked this as {{ historical}}. That should end the confusion alluded to above. (Now let's see how long before I get reverted...) -- EngineerScotty 18:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Even though the policy has been merged, to try to suppress discussion here is not appropriate. If we want to discuss things here, we should be free to do so, just like on any other talk page. Wjhonson 08:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
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Does anyone know / can recommend similar sites like Wikipedia where OR is allowed (and yes I know all about uncyclopedia thanks). Magic Pickle 20:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Isn't this policy redundant? What's covered here that's not covered by WP:V? Matt Yeager ♫ ( Talk?) 05:44, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I have a question, If I found something in a computers registery that is a default value that I didn't change and could possible be put in a trivia section of an article. Does it count as original research until I can find a publication that mentions it? SleepyDan 22:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I am the author of an article on Lipotes Vexillifer which has been published in a well-known scientific journal. Does the OC rule prevent me using material from that article in the Lipotes Vexillifer Wikipedia article even though no-one else would have such a restriction in using said material? Knight of Ashitaka 22:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure I agree with all of WP:NOR's tenets. In particular, I feel that primary sources, comprehensively and evenly summarized, ought to be able to stand for themselves. A review of a secondary source is a review of a review, so to speak, and even "competent scholars" are sometimes biased. — Rickyrab | Talk 06:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit puzzled too. For example I added, to a very short article about the Indian town of Palampur, the fact that paraglider pilots often land there. I know this because I have seen it happen -- in fact, I've done it myself. Adding that fact makes the article about Palampur a tiny bit more useful. Should I not have done it?
Ah yes, but do print encyclopaedias (in general) have hundreds of footnotes for each entry? No. Magic Pickle 20:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
K, so i get what is original research but what does one do if one comes across it? like in Examination of Holocaust denial, which is up for deletion, most of the people agree that it is Original research but the high quality of that research could further benefit wikipedia. What should oyu do in this situation?/?? Xlegiofalco 00:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
What about the issue of translations? To extensively quote a published translation can be a violation of copyright, while a contributor may very well have the expertise to translate an important foreign work. Certainly in many cases it would not be difficult for readers to verify the reliability of a translation by comparing it to published translations. A great deal of Eastern philosophy is only accessible via translation and it would be very useful to quote extensive passages in translation. Not all translations require "original research," only technical expertise. I think this distinction of original research is not as clear cut as many believe as any good article requires a degree of synthesis and original thinking. Rthrelfall 05:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
At one point the article contained the paragraph "Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."
I gather that the first sentence was removed deliberately, but what about the rest? Was it removed by mistake? I can't find any discussion of it in the archives. User:Ben Standeven as 70.246.221.36 01:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) My understanding is that 'Original Research' is to be avoided, while summarizing and/or describing existing research, which was verifiably published in a reputable publication, is allowed. IOW, the distinction is that while WP editors can certainly present research, they cannot create it from scratch - they are only allowed to summarize and describe research that has already been published elsewhere. Crum375 23:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The above comment seems to be in relation to this clarification I made that SlimVirgin reverted. I altered "This entire paragraph" to "The first sentence of this paragraph", since the rest of the paragraph did not seem to be OR. It was a statement about the Chicago Manual of Style that is (I presume) verifiably true or false and can't possibly be OR:
Surely it is less confusing to clarify exactly which part of the paragraph is OR? It was not a change of policy. -- Michael C. Price talk 08:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
This material has been around for a very long time, and presumably reflects a wide consensus:
Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.
In some cases, where an article (1) makes descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims, a Wikipedia article may be based entirely on primary sources (examples would include apple pie or current events), but these are exceptions.
Somehow they got lost this autumn. I feel they provide an important safety valve for WP:NOR, because without them there is no positive statement about what is allowed, only what is excluded. This can lead to editors invoking NOR for almost any summary they don't agree with.
For instance, if somebody is summarizing, I don't know, a cartoon or sitcom episode, and it has a very obvious Shakespeare reference, say Juliet on the balcony, then an editor ought to be able to make that connection and have it be left alone. But without those paragraphs, another editor could argue that the mention of Shakespeare was a "thesis" and therefore OR.
So, I'm reinserting those long-standing policies. Cool? Squidfryerchef 01:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
There's been a lot of discussion about the "synthesis" example and whether parts of it aren't really OR. I think that it's not so cut-and-dried, and if written a slightly different way, it would not be OR. How would you all feel about this?:
Mr. X, who wrote an article in a particular scholarly journal, was accused of plagiarism when it was discovered that he had copied a list of references from another journal article. However, accepted definitions of plagiarism vary; while the Detroit Style Guide ( I'm making these up ) says that any reference cited must actually be used in the text, the Cleveland Style Guide says that this is an acceptable way to create a working bibliography
It's my opinion that this is just good scholarship, not OR. It should be OK to bring in supplemental information like this, as long as it is only used to compare and contrast. For example, "plagiarism" is a very strong word, and it benefits the reader to have a clear definition of what Mr. X is being accused of. Squidfryerchef 01:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The form of Squid's text is "SoAndSo was accused of plagiarism but his guilt is unclear since there are multiple definitions." That is clearly an opinion so it has to be sourced to a reliable source. But the only source given for this opinion is Squid, so it's OR without a doubt. The OR here is not the bringing of multiple definitions of plagiarism, but the application of them by Squid to judge the guilt of SoAndSo. -- Zero talk 14:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The synthesis example seems to be taken from Talk:Alan_Dershowitz#The_debate_with_Norman_Finkelstein. But that version differs in one important way. In it, the reference to the Chicago Manual of Style is attributed to "James O. Freedman, the former president of Dartmouth College, the University of Iowa, and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences". In other words, the example isn't original research at all, because it is attributed to a source (James O. Freedman), and the source, not the Wikipedia editor, has drawn the conclusion. Ken Arromdee 15:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Mr X states "I have proven the world is flat, since otherwide people at the antipodes would fall off." (Mr X Speaks, Dutton & Co, 2002) Newton addressed this issue in his work De Principia Antipodiasticus when he said "... people at the antipodes will not fall off..." Wjhonson 17:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I agree with Michael C. Price. A simple logical deduction should not be considered original research. That's one of the problems with the original research policy; it puts editors in a situation where saying "city A is west of city B" is original research when the source says "city B is east of city A". Deciding whether something meets a dictionary definition is straightforward enough that calling it original research stretches the policy beyond all usefulness.
To state that "according to the Chicago Manual of Style, Jones isn't a plagiarist" is wrong not because applying the definition to Jones is OR, but rather because the Chicago Manual of Style isn't an authority on Jones. It wouldn't matter if the CMoS gave a definition or directly said "Jones isn't a plagiarist". It's unacceptable either way, even though the second version clearly isn't original research. It's a reliable sources problem. (Of course, the version sourced to the former president of Dartmouth isn't either one.)
I wouldn't count the Newton example because Mr. X doesn't claim his theory follows Newton's Laws to begin with, so you'd have to say "Mr. X's theory would not follow Newton's Laws, because...." You can't decide for the reader that Newton's Laws must be accepted.
If you did word it that way, whether it's OR would depend on whether the conclusion that the theory violates Newton's Laws is a simple deduction. In the "Jones" example, people would argue that the Chicago Manual of Style's definition isn't relevant--not about whether Jones meets the definition. If whether Jones meets the definition can't reasonably be disputed, then it's a simple deduction like deducing that a city is east of a city in the west, and not OR. Likewise, if Mr. X's theory is so inconsistent with Newton's Laws that anyone could see it after a five second glance at Newton's Laws without knowing anything of them, it's not OR to call it inconsistent. If you could only determine that Mr. X's theory violates Newton's Laws by following an entire argument (even an argument in another work from Newton), then it would be OR and you'd have to use the "Newton addressed the issue in..." formulation.
Unfortunately, a lot of people disagree with me. However, you might want to check out the proposed Wikipedia:Attribution, which allows simple deductions. (It also uses the Dershowitz/Jones example in a FAQ, though.) Ken Arromdee 17:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Please could someone (or somemany) take a look at the discussion on Talk:Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars and the edits on the corresponding article. The article has been tagged as containing original research for as long as I've known so I went on a cull, removing anything that was obviously original research. Another user has now decided that my edits are too extreme and has reverted parts of it - and just added more original research tags. Can anyone provide some insight into what should be done? I am pretty sure that we aren't supposed to have sentences saying things like It is as of yet unknown if the race has also been officially designated as "the Scrin", or indeed if they effectively even are the Scrin. Thanks in advance! - Localzuk (talk) 17:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
It's been a very interesting discussion. Im wondering how these guidelines would be received:
- Just because the facts "A is a B" and "B is a C" are each asserted in reliable sources, does not by itself allow us to claim that "A is a C" ( this is a paraphrase of the "synthesis" paragraph ).
- Logical inferences that are made to advance a thesis are not allowed. For example, a literature term paper is OR just as a science experiment or a journalistic interview is OR. It is acceptable, however, to compare and contrast several points of view provided the other guidelines are met.
- Sources used in logical inferences are held to a higher standard than simply being reliable. They must also be an authority on the subject. This doesn't mean they have to be an authority on the main subject of the article, but to use a source for "A is a B", it must be an authoritative source on A or B.
- If there are several conflicting authoritative sources on the subject, the editor should not cherry-pick one that best supports an inference.
- There is an exemption for "general knowledge" inferences. Otherwise, ( here's a tip of the pen ) saying "city A is west of city B" would be original research when the source says "city B is east of city A". The only facts required to make that inference would be a lexicon that west is the opposite of east.
- I was told once that general knowledge, in a research paper, encompasses anything you might find in an encyclopedia. Obviously this definition wouldn't do for us. General knowledge for our purposes might be material included in a children's dictionary, encyclopedia, atlas, etc.
- It is permissible, but by no means necessary, to include a reference for a general-knowledge inference.
- The flip side of the "general knowledge" guideline is that if a source asserts that "A is a B", but uses an unconventional definition of what a B is, that is, one that contradicts the popular definition of what a B entails, then the editor is encouraged to compare and explain this usage of B.
- What constitutes "advancing a thesis" depends in part on whether opinion is involved, if there is a chain of inferences involved, or simply on the length of the synthesized material.
- Adding items to categories, "See also" lists of internal links, and deciding which sources to cite do not count as "advancing a thesis". Otherwise we could get into meta-meta situations where you need a source just to cite a source. This does not mean to enourage "listcruft"; what belongs in a list is subject to consensus, and some things do and don't belong. However, WP:NOR is not the right policy to settle such discussions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Squidfryerchef ( talk • contribs) 04:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC).
Every now and then I see someone respond to a talk page comment by saying the WP:NOR applies as much to talk pages as it does articles. However, that does not appear to be the case, and there is occasionally good reason to post original research on the talk page of an article for feedback as a means of later improving the article.
For example, let's say you uncover additional information for an article, or an error in the article, through your own original research. It would not be appropriate to simply edit the article using what you found. However, it would be appropriate to post your information on the article's talk page and ask if any other editors are aware of a published reference duplicating what you found. If a verifiable reference can be found by another editor for your original research, then it could be included in the actual article.
Thus WP:NOR does not fully apply to talk pages as it does actual article pages. Original research on a talk page can be ok provided it's done in the proper context of attempting to solicit additional verifiable cited information for the article itself. Dugwiki 17:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be some disagreement about our model verifier and some confusion over the import of phrasing. The concept seems to owe something to the Common Law notion of a "reasonable man," sometimes now called a "reasonable person." This fictitious person possesses the knowledge and discretion that we commonly expect of a capable adult.
Similarly, Wikipedia policies such as Verifiability and NOR are based on the concept of a reasonable editor. This fictitious person possesses a reasonable level of knowledge, an accurate concept of logic, and is comparatively free of bias. It is therefore appropriate to term this a "reasonable adult," since Wikilawyers are typically less skilled than actual lawyers, and may not otherwise understand that a modicum of education is being assumed.
Despite what at least one editor has expressed, so phrasing things implies neither that all adults are reasonable nor that all children are not. Robert A.West ( Talk) 19:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that there is a major gap in both the no origial research and verifiability policies when it comes to mathematical equations. There was a recent debate at full moon cycle and The village pump that brought up several good issues. Two questions that need to be addressed are: (1) Do all equations need to be "citable", that is, found in a "reputable" source? And (2) How much can you "change" an equation before it becomes original research, or is used out of context?
I would like to propose a few topics that should be considered for inclusion in both policies:
While the above two rules might be considered to be too restrictive by some, please consider the following: If you are truly summarizing previous work, why would you have to make more than "trivial" changes to the equations and constants? If the constants do indeed need to be updated, then I would propose using the old (verifiable) ones, and mentioning in the text that these are could be out of date. Lunokhod 17:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see how applying basic, elementary school mathematics(like the first two examples in part 2) to a particular form of an equation constitutes original research. Such manipulations do not consitute publishable results on their own; no scientist would take these results as being original unless a novel interpretation is then brought to bear. I would say that original research introduces new concepts or relationships which have not been previously considered or cannot be independently verified by a typical reader. Performing algebraic manipulations simply reorganizes known relationships and can be easily verified by the so-called "reasonable adult". Is there some particular reason(or example) why you have drawn the line on OR in this way? (BTW, I agree that 3rd item in part 2 is probably OR) - Joshua Davis 18:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I generally support Lunokhod's efforts, but his proposal is too harsh. Lunokhod is trying to solve a problem seen in both full moon cycle and Halley's Comet, where amateurs used existing equations to create their own astronomical tables of object positions (epheremeses), which they subsequently added to Wikipedia. These calculations constitute original research; moreover, they would take me a long time to validate (and I am a professional astronomer).
However, restricting basic derivations (such as taking the square root of a simple equation) is too harsh, as virtually anyone with a high school education can validate such a calculation in less than one minute. Moreover, I would argue that some other simple calculations (such as taking averages or performing unit conversions) are needed to make Wikipedia more accessible for the general public.
As a compromise to Lunokhod's proposal, may I suggest the following:
What are other people's thoughts? (Whatever people come up with, I do not want to see people publishing astronomical epheremeses in Wikipedia.) Dr. Submillimeter 12:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is my second attempt at a policy statement concerning equations and constants. It is not as harsh as the original, and leaves sufficient vagueness to be adaptable to differing siuations. I believe that this should take care of the problem of creating new astronomical ephemerides, and could also be effective against users who attempt to insert "novel re-derivations" of a phenomenon. I have drawn the line at modifications that can be done on "the back of an envelope," but this could perhaps be made more precise by adding "(that is, containing one or two simple intermediate steps)". If you think this is suitable, feel free to change the text to your liking. Lunokhod 17:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Mathematical equations and constants are subjected to Wikipedia's No Original Research and Verifiabilitiy policies. Cited forms do not necessarily need to be exact duplicates of those found in the original text: Trivial changes such as a regrouping or reordering of terms, renaming of variables, conversion of units, or other mathematical operations that working professionals could reasonalbly perform on the back of an envelope should be expected. What is not allowed are equations that differ from their original forms by several intermediate steps (irregardless of whether each step is simple) or numerical values of constants that are not immediately relatable by a trivial operation to the original cited value. "Updated" or "improved" values of constants that have not been published by a reputable source are strictly prohibited.
IMO, the foregoing has several stylistic problems. "Subjected to" should be "subject to." The "cited form" would be the form in the published material -- I am sure what is meant that the form expressed in Wikipedia need not be the form in the citation. "Irregardless" is a portmanteau word and a pet peeve of mine. I think the back-of-the-envelope quantification and reference to a working professional is wrong -- we should be thinking of what a professor would leave as an exercise for the student, not what he would leave unexpressed when speaking with other experts. Moreover, this could be clearer on the matter of inclusion of intermediate steps that the author left out. So, here is my attempt. Robert A.West ( Talk) 17:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Equations, constants and other formulae are part of the theories they express and must satisfy Wikipedia's No Original Research and Verifiability policies. This does not mean that the expressed forms need to be exact duplicates of those found in the original text. Trivial changes, such as a regrouping or reordering of terms, renaming of variables, conversion of units and so on, are acceptable, as is explicating intermediate steps omitted by the published material. In all cases, the equivalence to published material must be immediately obvious to any working professional and a reasonable "back of the envelope" exercise for the astute student.
Submitted for your approval or merciless commentary. Robert A.West ( Talk) 17:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
One of Lunokhod's grievances is with full moon cycle, which uses numerical values for the constants of motion of the moon, and which uses more precise values than cited in the source. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Joshua Davis' reply above (I haven't read all the other replies since I last visited this discussion, but I also agree with CMummert's points). Completely novel derivations of well established subjects like statistical mechanics are usually not considered to be "original research" by the theoretical physics community and are therefore unpublishable. Wikipedia should follow this standard and allow for such novel derivations. It is important to do this, because the standard derivations you find in textbooks are often not very suitable for wikipedia.
We should not create a gap that will prevent good explanations from appearing on wikipedia. If we say that a novel derivation is original research then the idea is that one should wait until that novel derivation is published and only then it can be included in wikipedia. Well, that's simply never going to happen in e.g. this case.
So, the only reasonable standard for original research is as follows: An argument is original research if, assuming it is correct, an article based on it is publishable in a leading peer reviewed journal. I know that many contributors to the physics articles are professional physicists and many of them are referees for leading journals like Phys. Rev. (Lett.). So we have a good grasp of what is original research and what is not according to this standard.
Reasons to remove a novel derivation can be that it is actually incorrect or if it really is original research. We often say that edits by cranks that e.g. purport to show that special relativity is wrong is original research. This just means that if it were true then it would be publishable. The fact that it isn't true then doesn't matter and we can avoid having to discuss this issue with the crank editor, which saves us from a lot of trouble :) Count Iblis 01:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Count Iblis 01:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like some clarification for what constitutes primary and secondary sources. Sometimes a primary source is a great deal more informative than a secondary source; especially when the secondary source seems to be promoting an opinion. Specifically, would it be alright to use The Caddo Tribe of Oklahoma, et al., Plaintiffs, v. The United States of America, Defendants; Docket No. 226 to cite facts in an Oklahoma historical article in reference to how and why Caddos, Witchitas, etc., ended up on reservations in Oklahoma. Most secondary sources in this area are kind of opinionated, and quite a few have the facts wrong. DeepFork 16:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to all. Your comments are helpful. My conclusion is to use primary sources unless a secondary source provides a primary source for it's statements. Secondary sources that just cite another secondary source (or no source at all) would not be conclusive enough to overturn a known primary source. There seems an endless loop of secondary sources repeating seemingly faulty facts from each other. Thanks again. DeepFork 18:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion this policy can and does limited the usefulness of Wikipedia. I understand how Wikipedia is strictly an encylopedia however how is it not benefical to everyone if you include information that has not previously been documentated or recorded. An example of this is a small village school. Living in the UK in a small rural community, our local school does not have a website and there are certainly no books avalible on the subject. Is it therefore wrong for me to post information regarding the school when Wikipedia seems like the ideal place to do it?
Previously, the history of the school has remained a mystery. The structure of Wikipedia is so that such an article would be perfect for people to contribute their knowledge of the school to and while the factuality of the information may be doubtful, i'm sure there is some kind of disclaimer or tag that can be put over this. If not then how about a new one. "There is no documented evidence to support this". The infomation would be in the best interst to everyone, isn't it better that there is some disputable information there than none at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
I'm caught on this, as I can see a few others are (adding information about a school is not "random data" btw). This policy was brought to my attention when the use of an 'unreliable' website as a source was disputed in Talk:Inheritance. The website in question is [2], which I admit is a fan-site (or, I should say, hate-site) and not some published journal or recognized organization. Although I agree with some of the points given against posting it as a source, a quick glance at the site is all one needs (even for those who haven't read the books) to confirm that it is indeed a reliable one; it uses common sense and arguments made are backed with facts. Just because it isn't formally published doesn't make this any less true. Just because it was written by a couple of average joes doesn't mean that they're stupid and can't say anything that's correct or, in this case, 'reliable'.
At what point should published works win out over original research, so long as it contains common sense and undeniable truths? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.89.253.231 ( talk) 01:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC).
Wouldn't deciding if something is a reputable source be original research? And as Wikipedia disallows original research (and anything not from a reputable source) this means Wikipedia would be disallowed containing any information at all. -- Huffers 01:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
<reset indenting>
The reason the determination of reliable sources is not as paradoxical as it seems on first blush are two-fold:
Hope this possibly off-topic details are useful to you. Abecedare 03:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Can we add "religious scriptures" (texts such as Bible, Koran, Vedas etc) to the list of primary sources ? I know that this should be pretty obvious, but working on the Hinduism page I have seen editors debating on what the religion really says, based on quotes culled from the scriptures. It would be useful to point out the policy that specifically states that wikipedia articles cannot be argue a position (as opposed to illustrate a position) based on such quotes. Abecedare 15:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this sentence:
Should this be reworded slightly to say something like:
Or maybe:
It's hair-splitting, but I argue that those alternatives would be more precise than "Original research excludes . . ." Any thoughts, anybody? Yours, Famspear 03:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
During a recent AfD the topic of Original Research came up, specifically the "synthesis of information" part of the policy. It was argued that citing a number of media references about a term and including them in a section titled "References in the Media" constituted synthesis, because the references made by the media were not noted by other media sources. Eventually the argument boiled down to whether or not the "mere collection of information" (my words) with no implied or directed conclusions drawn from this information constituted synthesis, thusly becoming Original Research. I have seen this same argument rasied a number of times since then.
The question I have is this: is the simple act of compiling information (say, background information on a person or place) from multiple sources without drawing any conclusions from that information a form of Original Research? My understanding of the policy is that provided there is no new conclusion created (implicitly or explicitly) by comparing or combining pieces of information it does not qualify. To paraphrase the example in the policy, if the text includes "A" and "B", so long as there is no "C" it is not Original Research. (After all, 99% of Wikipedia is a compilation of information from numerous sources)
Regardless of whether or not my understanding of the policy is correct, I believe that the article needs to be much more clear on this point. (e.g. a bolded sentence that states "the mere collection of information with no expressed or implied conclusions from that information (is/is not) synthesis." Thoughts? -- Y|yukichigai 20:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
An additional thought: perhaps the second use of the word "synthesis" should be removed from the text. (Provided my interpretation of the policy is correct) I think many people are getting confused by the fact that the definition of synthesis, combined with the way the policy is written, would seem to indicate that they can only use a combination of sources that somebody else has used before. Perhaps it should be changed to something like:
"It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or particular case to a reputable source;" (changed words in bold)
Further thoughts? -- Y|yukichigai 22:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm the one who was brought up the "Detroit" and "Cleveland" examples in an effort to tone down the "Synthesis" example. I think there needs to be a counterexample, not "Neutral Original Research", but just good research. Because the "plagiarism" example is pretty mild OR, without a counterexample editors could infer that almost anything is OR.
This is OR: "Mr. X was accused of plagiarism...copied list of sources.... But because the Chicago Manual of Style does not consider this plagiarism, Mr. X did not commit plagiarism."
This, in my opinion, is not OR: "Mr. X was accused of plagiarism...copied list of sources.... However, it should be noted that academic authorities, such as the XYZ manual of style and the AQRS citation guide, are divided on whether this is considered plagiarism." This does not make any inferences, but some editors feel this is OR perhaps because of the proximity of sources. We can't get into a snake-eating-its-own-tail situation of only allowing combinations of sources that have been cited before.
What if it was: "Mr. X was accused of plagiarism in North Korea. However, it should be noted that bibliographic standards there are very different from those in the U.S. and Britain." Squidfryerchef 01:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
At the moment we have a sentence which says:
I suggest that it is removed, because:
Enchanter 11:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Pardon me for intruding, but a question has come up lately on a WP page about an organization which has changed its Mission Statement. The current Mission Statement from that organization is cited in the article, and all editors seem satisfied with that. It is common on WP pages describing organizations to consider their history, which in this case requires some way of showing what their Mission Statement was for the first half of that organization's ten year history. This should, I would think, be straightforward due to the Wayback machine, in which this organization's previous Mission Statement has been found, and has been similarly quoted from with a solid citation to the Wayback machine (showing the path to the organization). There is no dispute that the citation is accurate, or that the citation points to the same organization.
Unfortunately there are a couple of editors for that page who are, I believe, misunderstanding the meaning of OR, when they state that this citation to the same organization's Mission Statement from the Wayback machine (web.archive.org) cannot be used since it is "WP:OR". Their argument is apparently that a citation to the web.archive.org page cannot be made, and that a reference to the organization's previous Mission Statement can be made ONLY if it is quoting some researcher or journalist who has written an article in a major publication that has pointed out that the Mission Statement has changed.
Frankly this seems plain ridiculous to me (and possibly an example of wikilawyering), but this well-cited section has been removed repeatedly in an edit war, and I am looking for opinions here from the editors of this OR page who are well acquainted with the OR guideline and can hopefully help me make a persuasive argument that OR is not meant to limit citations to ONLY published literature. Surely a citation from the Wayback machine is not only acceptable, but should be encouraged, since it is less subjective than a researcher's or journalist's statement, no matter how NPOV that researcher or journalist may be?
If the Wayback machine is as reliable a source as I believe it to be, would it be possible to add a reference to its use in the WP:OR page to make it clear that citing it directly is encouraged when it helps to illustrate a historical point? Or do you think it would be better to put a reference to the Wayback machine into the WP:RS page? Any ideas are welcome. Thank you, Jgui 04:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Yukichigai, please don't change the policy. Can you say here, please, what your edit means? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
On a side issue, these are my observations on the policy wording:
I think these wordings might be the substantive source of the problems noted by Yukichigai. The issue on OR is the idea's novelty, it's not relevant to novelty whether the idea is also favored or otherwise by some editor. FT2 ( Talk | email) 08:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems my stringent interpretation is a minority view. Can we discuss one final example, and I will then accommodate my view of synthesis to what you say. Here is the example...
The New York Times reports that Mr. X has been accused of Plagiarism in North Korea. However, according to the Korean Academic Citation Manual, the concept of plagiarism is "different in North Korea from that of the Americans".
So, assuming there are no secondary sources who defend Mr. X using the Korean Academic Citation Manual, do you prefer a Wikipedia that adds the extra sentence of analysis or one that only follows what has been published in secondary sources? Let's take a poll, I go first:
Essentially to reset indentation :). The example that tries to get to the core of the issue:
The New York Times reports that Mr. X has been accused of Plagiarism in North Korea. According to the Korean Academic Citation Manual, the concept of plagiarism is "different in North Korea from that of the Americans".
As I said above, I think this is WP:SYNT, and here I hope to see people telling me that I'm right or wrong. Well I hope people telling me I'm right, but I would also be glad if people told me I'm wrong, and then we could include this to the policy as a positive example of not being original research. Opinions? -- Merzul 22:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Still, let's get legalistic again... My question is if you all agree that the following example is equivalent to the current example used in the policy?
Smith says that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another book. The Chicago Manual of Style does not call the copying of references plagiarism.
So let's forget about the issue of this being OR or not. The question is only if this is equivalent? Meaning has this less precise reformulation also removed the violation of SYNT? -- Merzul 19:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
What about this one?
Smith says that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another book. Jones denies this, and says it's acceptable scholarly practice to use other people's books to find new references. The Chicago Manual of Style requires citation of the source actually consulted, but does not call violating this rule "plagiarism." Instead, plagiarism is defined as using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them.
I don't see how this can violate any other policy, it is both relevant and neutral, unless any other style manual has a different definition, and let's assume they don't. If this is not synthesis, I will add this to the policy page as an example of removed synthesis, and if it is synthesis I will replace the current confusing examples. In either case, I will put this example into the policy, but YOU will decide, if this is or is not SYNT. -- Merzul 21:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The issue, IMO, is simply that NOR also includes 'NOJ' - No Original Juxtaposition. That means that we may not juxtapose items together and thereby create a new implication. If the juxtaposition and the implication can be properly attributed to a reliable source, we are covered. Otherwise, we are not. Crum375 01:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
check) 08:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. [1] A and B, implies C is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article.
Here is an example from a Wikipedia article, with the names changed. The article was about Jones:
Smith says that Jones committed plagiarism by copying references from another book. Jones denies this, and says it's acceptable scholarly practice to use other people's books to find new references.
That much is fine. Now comes the unpublished synthesis of published material:
The Chicago Manual of Style requires citation of the source actually consulted, but does not call violating this rule "plagiarism." Instead, plagiarism is defined as using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them.
This paragraph is original research, because it expresses the editor's opinion that, given the Chicago Manual of Style's definition of plagiarism, Jones did not commit it. To make the paragraph consistent with this policy, a reliable source is needed that specifically comments on the Smith and Jones dispute and makes the same point about the Chicago Manual of Style and plagiarism. In other words, that precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source in relation to the topic before it can be published in Wikipedia.
So is this still SYNT? If the regulars agree with this, then I see no reason why you prefer the official version. (Except the fear of abuse). The reason I hate the official version is that everybody knows the first sentence is original research, so it really distracts from understanding what synthesis is! -- Merzul 03:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I just want to make it clear that it is me, Merzul, who is behind this conspiracy to clarify the synthesis example. Now, maybe I can state what I'm asking more clearly as two questions that can be more or less answered one after the other:
Thank you for your attention, I will now take the advice above and edit the encyclopedia for a change :) Still, I believe that I have a point, so it is hard to just leave this, but I'll try, so good bye! -- Merzul 16:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
On Talk:Persian Gulf naming dispute there is a drawn-out on-going dispute. The article Persian Gulf naming dispute contains a cartographic gallery displaying sixteen historical maps in which the Persian Sea is labelled "Persian Gulf" in various variations and languages. This bolsters the claim, implied by the text of the article, that "Persian Gulf" is the time-honoured name for this body of water, and that the name "Arabian Gulf" has not been used for it before the rise of Arab nationalism in the sixties.
Some editors want to include a few historical maps like the one shown here, which – at least in their view – show that occasionally the label "Arabian Gulf" has been applied earlier to this body of water. Other editors oppose this. They maintain that the interpretation that the label "Arabian Gulf" on the map is applied there to the body of water generally known as the Persian Gulf – and not, for example, to the (nearby) Shatt al-Arab river – without support by "textual evidence" (a published text stating that the label on the map refers to this body of water) is original research and therefore not allowed.
The issue is of course much more general than just these maps; it may apply to all text on an image, and also to the interpretation of what is further depicted on an image. For example, for the map here: does the body of water on the map in which we see the text Sinus Arabicus show the Persian Gulf, and not the Arabian Sea? Is this assumption warranted without support from a citable source? How should the requirement of "no original research" be construed in cases like this? Is it correct to consider inclusion of these maps without support by further "textual evidence" a form of OR? What about the maps that are included in the gallery of Persian Gulf naming dispute? -- Lambiam Talk 06:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I just tried putting them back, since the one most in contention is clearly sourced, as above. I was reverted in ten minutes. Frankly, I think more severe action may be warranted. We have no business presenting an article which refuses to acknowledge sourced evidence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
All great writing, all good writing is without exception based on originality. If originality is removed from the equation, it is the same as just feeding the subject into some sort of computer search engine and have the computer spit out some bits and bytes and there is Wikipedia. But there are good articles in Wikipedia and without exception, these are created in spite of this rule not because of it. It is not possible to have a good article without originality, it just cannot be done. Throughout history in every case of good writing, the spark has been originality.
On controversial subjects this rule is even more of a disaster. There are all sorts of bad and rude idiotic ideas published and verified, and what is there to refute all this rubbish? It would be far better to let both sides present their strongest argument and let the reader decide the truth. This would insure that both sides of the argument get a fair hearing which is not now the case on Wikipedia.
It must also be remembered that this article is itself completely and totally originally research and its claims that this policy works are not shown by Wikipedia itself. Perhaps the strongest proof that this policy is a failure is that in so many articles the pictures are of far greater quality than the prose. This is very likely because the prose is far more restricted by this policy than the pictures.
I am surprised by the overall low quality of Wikipedia, and it certainly cannot be because of lack of effort. It must be bad policy. 01001 03:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
At the article Persian Gulf naming dispute, someone has gathered a collection of 16 maps that call the Persian Gulf the "Persian Gulf", apparently (?) in an effort to argue that this is the proper name. When maps with the name "Arabian Gulf" were added, they were removed multiple times. The issue was raised by Lambian above, but few people commented on it. It seems to me that the entire article has a WP:SYNT overtone, but especially the maps section. I am wrong? CMummert · talk 03:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I promise this is the last edit I make to a policy page, and I apologize for being so cheeky, but I simply couldn't leave this issue without at least having tried my best to clarify the issue. The reasons for making that change:
If this too is reverted, I will gracefully accept it. I'm actually thankful that my stubbornness has been tolerated this far, and will not push it any further, but I am curious why this issue is not clarified on the policy page. -- Merzul 17:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
When I said I would gracefully accept reverts, I didn't expect something as childish as "please don't change the original; it's a real example". Fine, I'm leaving. -- Merzul 17:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I fully apologize for my above stunts, but I think I have at least understood the policy myself. Now, I consider the following as original research:
However, I am still unable to say why the following material from a featured article is not original research:
This is synthesizing the sources to make the implicit claim that the forest recreational guide are slightly exaggerating the numbers, yet in some sense this is more acceptable. I can only think that this is because the editors found this more neutral/innocent. Maybe one can also draw the distinction between an analysis at the tertiary level (presenting different secondary sources neutrally) and the secondary level (presenting contradictions in primary sources), but I'm not sure how to define that properly... Maybe since the issue is so difficult, it is better to keep the policy ambiguous. -- Merzul 19:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The section on synthesis supports the statement:
with the footnote:
I think this is misleading. This part of the policy is not directly based on this statement, (or any other statement by Jimmy, to my knowledge) - it was written by Wikipedians themselves, like most parts of policy. Where a statement is cited with a footnote, the reader has the right to assume that the statement is directly based upon the footnote, not a creative interpretation of it. Enchanter 22:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm currently translating this project page into Dutch for NL-Wikipedia, but I'm sort of stuck... There's one word in Jimmy Wales' text that I just don't know. Google and loads of dictionaries weren't able to help me either, so here I am asking for your assistance.
See Wikipedia:No original research#Neutral point of view (NPOV): "If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research."
Does he mean ancilliary or ancillary here? And what exactly does he mean? Don't worry, I do not expect Dutch translations ;) but what I would appreciate is some sort of paraphrase or alternative for this specific word so I know what to use in my Dutch version.
Thanks!
Kind regards,
Erik1980
21:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
(
nl:Gebruiker:Erik1980 --
Dutch talk page)
Thanks for your explanation, I'll add this section to the Dutch version immediately! Erik1980 20:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please take a look at what I believe is a perfect example of unacceptable synth here ?
A user called "Big Brother 1984" has recently come into the article Heaven with a very militant attitude and has concocted a new section on "The atheist view of heaven". The problem is that in order to concoct "the atheist view of heaven", he has synthesized a string of citations for support, that consist of quotes from various literary authors taken completely out of context, such as Edward Gibbon and George Orwell - neither of whom was writing on behalf of atheism in the quotes in question, and neither of whom was ever known to have been an atheist, nor any kind of spokesperson for atheism. As far as I can tell, this synthesis of disparate quotes from non-atheists, who were not talking about atheism or purporting to give an "atheist point of view", in order to create the "atheist view of Heaven" is a completely novel invention of his own. On the talk page, he refuses to acknowledge that it is a novel synthesis - even though he acknowledges that Gibbon and Orwell were each criticising governmental misuse of state-controlled religion, rather than the theological concept of Heaven per se: all secondary analyses agree that Gibbon was really criticising the pagan Roman Empire, while Orwell was criticising Stalinism, in the quotes in question - and certainly not formulating any "atheist doctrine", as he has done with these quotes. He has engaged in a revert war with me now for the past week, and at one point he peppered the rest of the article with gratuitous "fact" tags after I reverted him. Aside from that, I also have issues with undue, disproportionate weight now being given to the "atheist view of heaven" in an article about explaining the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist, and other concepts of Heaven - it just seems needlessly confrontational. ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 22:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
This article's nutshell currently reads: "Articles may not contain any unpublished arguments, ideas, data, or theories; or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position." This is confusingly written, and I believe it's not a very good nutshell. I tried changing it to "Wikipedia articles may only contain information that's been published in other sources," but that was reverted. I'd like community help on coming up with a better nutshell for this policy. - Brian Kendig 23:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The section on synthesis is logically incoherent along with just plain being incoherent. Arguably the first sentence in any article is a synthesis, simply by choosing it as the first sentence. But any sentence after the first sentence must logically be a synthesis that advances a position. For any statement after the first statement can be any number of an infinite number of statements. And any change in any statement will change the meaning of the article to a greater or lesser extent,i.e, will serve to advance a position. Therefore, by this rule the whole of Wikipedia is breaking its own rules.
Of course there must be rules to enforce the veracity of this encyclopedia, but these rules here are written so strictly as to truly be meaningless. The rules as stated here must be broken for any article to be written.
This article here is also breaking the rules for NPOV. Any set of rules must have an upside and a downside, and certainly a discussion as to why a set of rules is chosen over another set of rules must be included in this article. Or somewhere that is clearly linked to this article if this article is to truly have any validity. 01001 20:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Some friendly advice to 01001: Look, Wikipedia has a body of policies and guidelines that has been fine tuned by hundreds of editors over an extended period of time. Sure, we can always fine tune them a bit more, adjust here and there as necessary, etc., but make no mistake: the framework upon which Wikipedia stands works and has enabled us to create one of the most important encyclopedias in the world, based on that framework that you have chosen to criticize (I have seen your posts at WP:V and other policies.) So, my advice to you is: If you like the way Wikipedia works, great, your contributions are most welcome and while you are at it, your suggestions on how to improve our policies is welcome as well But if you don't, rather than attempt to change the system to your liking, you may want to try other wikis such as Wikiinfo or Citizendium. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra railway line, Sydney has many scheduled trains per day, which go from stopping only at some more major stations to stopping at all stations. Is it original research to pick some of these as the primary ones and call the others variations, when the timetables don't do anything of the sort? ( Eastern Suburbs & Illawarra railway line, Sydney#Stopping patterns) -- NE2 07:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I've resently have had a section I wrote deemed original research. I have pics to show the proof of what I wrote. My question is:
Can something that has pics (like of a comic book, TV show screen and along that line) to show proof still be deemed original research?
"THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 02:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
its on Tokyo_Mew_Mew#Ribbon_translation_error, I really dont want to explain it, as I'm kinda tired of doing so, and I'm kinda sleepy. In a short, I used the pics to show the difference between the katakana to show there is a difference. I didnt draw any conclusions or whatever.
"THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 02:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I should say it is possibly correct as opposed to say its right is A.) The other mangas shows it "reborn", such as B.) asked my Japanese teacher just to be sure, as she a native speaker C.) Tokyopop is knowns for its typos, translation errors n such, so that kinda destroys their creditiblity D.) MANY vandals have tried to delete it, and I'm afraid once they see I said is "possibly the correct translation", ti will probaly lead them to vandalze, such as POV statements, blanking it, etc.
Getting sources is what I can do for sure. Thanks for the advice! "THROUGH FIRE, JUSTICE IS SERVED!" 23:17, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi - I'm curious what people here think of the discussion that has begun on talk:Ido. A user has decided to enforce policy there but since population estimates are so entrenched that simply enforcing WP:NOR won't do anything for the other pages on other IALs, both in English and pretty much every other language. Adding to the problem is a lot of mutual intelligibility between IALs - thanks to learning Ido I can read and write Esperanto, Novial, etc. and for all I know might count as a speaker of those as well depending on the definition. Making it even more difficult is the political nature of the movement - often 'number of speakers' means 'number of supporters' because people will choose to only use the language they feel to be the best even if they speak and understand another one. What to do? Mithridates 03:03, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Some 2nd person "you" references were just cleaned-up from the WP:CCC text merged into WP:CON because they stuck out like a sore thumb after the merge. This policy article is written almost entirely in the 2nd person, almost like a how-to. Does anyone else think this is inappropriate? Dhaluza 03:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Can I upload a short clip of backwards messages found in songs in the List of backmasked messages? The clips would, of course, be reversed versions of the original sections. And the existence of the backwards messages would be documented by reliable sources.
My tenative theory is that, since audio seems to generally fall under the same standards as images (for example, {{ Music sample}} is in Category:Non-free image copyright tags), a short reversed sample would be similar to an image in being exempt from the Original Research policy. Of course, it would still have to meet the restrictions at Wikipedia:Music samples. Λυδαcιτγ 20:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Certainly there is a place for an internet encyclopedia that we can all contribute. Wikipedia has filled that void and has now achieved a monopoly position there. The success of Wikipedia does not validate the original research policy. What would happen if the OR restriction was removed entirely?
Clearly, as pointed out previously the OR policy is logically invalid. It is hard to believe that Wikipedia needs to rely on a logically absurd policy. How could the policy be changed to be logically valid?
How is one to refute verified nonsense without OR?
Lastly, if we have a physics article where we have two sides of a right triangle can we infer the length of the third side? 01001 04:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
The nutshell had an unfortunate example of a double negative, so I reworked it into a bulleted list to try to make it more clear. The IP edit source was an accident since I did not realize my login timed out. Dhaluza 11:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to establish the limits of the rules about synthesis of published material. This is relevant to discussions going on at Talk:Controversy over criticism of Quebec society.
I'll use a fabricated example which may seem stupid, but definitive answers to which would help me understand the limits of the policy: There are articles on Wikipedia about each of the Canadian provinces, each reporting its (properly sourced) surface area. A user reads all these reports and concludes that Quebec is the largest province. If he adds a sentence to the article about Quebec stating that it is the largest province, but without providing a source, is that original research? To me, the plagiarism example clearly implies that it would be. John FitzGerald 18:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the prompt answer. I'm afraid I find these issues rather thorny, so i have follow-ups. First of all, I'm not saying a source couldn't be found; I want to know if one need be found. If the criterion is being "clear, well defined, and non-controversial," I do not understand what is unclear, poorly defined, or controversial about the statement:
This statement is described in the article as original research. The statement seems abundantly clear and well defined to me, and any possible controversy can be resolved by consulting the Chicago Manual of Style. Furthermore, a secondary source is no more likely to be accurate about this issue than is a group of Wikipedia users who consult the manual.
I'm not trying to be difficult about this. I already am grateful for your statement of these criteria. I also understand perfectly your examples of other issues that would involve people in original research, and agree with you about them. John FitzGerald 21:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Since Canada has 10 provinces, not 13, the dangers of original research may have been made apparent by your post; I'll assume it's a typo, although people sometimes think Nunavut, NWT, and YT are provinces. In general, though, I agree with you. However, as I read it, the policy doesn't. Comparing sizes is inference. My concern is that the policy is too restrictive as written, and it is being interpreted too restrictively by some people (the discussion page i have already linked to provides examples). It also seems to me that your nightmare of articles consisting of "series of disjointed quotes" is becoming real. It seems to me the limits of this policy need to be specified more clearly. John FitzGerald 16:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Nut Wikipedia is not written by or for fourth-graders. The only judgment required in the example – it seems to me – is whether a citation was provided or not. Obviously it doesn't seem like that to you. As I've said, the problem is that the policy needs to be clearer. As it stands, i would say the great majority of Wikipedia's articles constitute original research according to this policy.
One idea I have had – which well might not work, which is why I'm mentioning it here – is to let inferences like this stand until either disproven or demonstrated by discussion on the talk page to be questionable. My experience here suggests to me that people will agree to withdraw a questionable inference. John FitzGerald 13:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Guys I need your opinions urgently about NOR on an article Languages of Iran; as you will see from the history of the article and its talk page I have been told that we cannot take a calculator and add up the figures on this article and demonstrate the discrepancies because that is counted as Original research! Is this true? Is adding up the figures on a list and showing their discrepancies counted as original Research? Kiumars
I think it's inappropriate to label this OR, and especially confusing for new users to Wikipedia.
As far as I can see, the background to this is that someone noticed that the number of people in a table of speakers of different languages in Iran added up to greater than the population of Iran. This kind of research is to be encouraged - cross checking facts and figures with other sources to check that they make sense.
In my view, an appropriate response to this editor would be to look into this comment, and say something like "Thank you for pointing out this discrepancy. However, looking at the source, there's a good reason for it - the figures cover all speakers of each language, so people speaking more than one language are covered more than once." It might also be appropriate to clarify the article.
However, the actual response to this editor was to label his observation as OR. I don't think this was justified; he was doing straightforward research and fact checking, drawing no novel or contentious conclusions, and yet he was accused of violating the NOR policy, which has always been primarily aimed at keeping novel unpublished ideas out of Wikipedia.
As well as strongly discouraging original research, if we are to create a reliable encyclopedia we need to strongly encourage desirable, non-novel, unoriginal research, such as cross checking articles against multiple sources, carefully checking for reasonableness and consistency, and raising observations when facts and figures don't appear to stack up. For this reason, I think we should be very careful not to apply the NOR policy in a way that might discourage this sort of desirable research, and not to accuse editors of violating the NOR policy without good reason. Enchanter 12:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the article says: "Wikipedia is not the place for original research." I think, you should, after that, include a link to one of the Wiki projects that is the place for OR. Mausy5043 12:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
At Angie's List there's some info in the article that is unsourced speculation about the company, specifically numbers that are assumed from other numbers, numbers based on things like minimum wage and postal rates, and similar things. Also removes citation needed tags, insisting they aren't needed. Seems like blatant OR to me, but I don't want to get into a one on one situation with this editor (so far I've left most of it with citation tags, but I suspect sources don't exist for most and the claims will be deleted). Outside input would be helpful - the article is locked right now but explanation from someone else on the talk page would be helpful. Thanks. -- Milo H Minderbinder 22:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Just a note that I've edited the bit on images to reflect that manipulated images are not per se required to be listed on Images for Deletion. Only when the manipulation materially affects the encyclopedic value of the image should we be concerned. If there's a photo of a flower for example, it's normally considered acceptable (according to WP community consensus) to do things like alter saturation levels, exposure timing, and perhaps even artificially blur out the background to simulate shallow depth of field. On the other hand, it would be unacceptable to do things like fundamentally change the color of the flower (red -> yellow, etc.), remove or add important parts of the flower, and other things that would improperly represent the "reality" of the flower. There have been many lengthy discussions about the appropriateness of various and specific manipulations at WP:FPC, and anyone with questions may wish to look there. I trust that my addition to the WP:OR page is uncontroversial, but please let me know if anyone has a problem with it. -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I have found an audio sample at the Electronic voice phenomenon article. This sample, which is supposed to be of paranormal electronic voices, was recorded by two people who then self-published it on their website. According to the Original Research policy page, I think they are not a reliable source, and it is original research?- MsHyde 00:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
MsHyde I think you're confusing editors with sources. You and I are editors. The Weekly World News, and that website you're referring to are sources. The policy against original research does not apply to sources. Zero, nunca, zilch, nada, nothing. Not applicable. The policy that prohibits original research *only* applies to MsHyde and Wjhonson and others like us here in wikipedia land. WE cannot do original research. MsHyde cannot go do an EVP and post it. Some other people, let's say John Brown, who has his own website can do original research all day long and we can cite to it under certain circumstances. That is why you need to read WP:V. The first line of what policy? If it says "original research is published by unreliable sources" then I need to fix it, because that makes no sense at all. Original research can be published by reliable sources as well. When the Wall Street Journal writes an article that uses new ideas, thats original research and yet they are a reliable source. I hope the distinction is a little more clear. Wjhonson 09:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The "synthesis" section seems to be becoming contentious in relation to scientific/medical articles.
Suppose there's a situation where someone has published a medical/scientific claim that makes no sense in mainstream scientific terms (for instance, it's wildly in breach of thermodynamics or is just a meaningless usage of scientific terminology) - but no mainstream critic has yet published comment/refutal.
To what extent, if any, can one place context on the claim?
As things stand, it seems the "no synthesis" guideline is allowing non-mainstream views to be presented non-neutrally and with undue weight, since some editors are arguing that any kind of broader context counts as OR unless a specific counter-citation can be found.
Any thoughts? Tearlach 13:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
As MsHyde correctly pointed out (see abpve), the intro confuses the concepts of reliable source (part of verifiability) with original research. The two concepts are quite disjoint. A reliable source may do original research, they may also not be doing original research. As well an unreliable source may do original research, and also may not do it. All four cases are possibilities. In a truth table, they are independent variables, free to move without restraint from each other. We should not, right here on the main page, be hopelessly confusing them with each other. I have reworded the offending section to remove the issue of reliability. All questions of reliability should be place on the appropriate policy page, which isn't this one. I'm open to discussion about the matter should others disagree. Wjhonson 17:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
We're having a disagreement at Talk:Controversy over criticism of Quebec society about original research. I think to a large extent it's an argument at cross-purposes, so I will be encouraging the other people involved to post their views of the dispute here. Anyway, I raised a question about a section of the article dealing with the city of Westmount's opposition to a policy of the Quebec provincial government. This opposition was characterized by some politicians as Quebec-bashing and colonialism. My point is that it is not clear that Westmount's action constituted criticism of Quebec society, and that therefore any unsourced assumption that it does constitutes original research. Others seem to think (and I'll leave it to them to clarify whether I'm stating their argument correctly) that as long as a source can be provided showing that the accusation was made that Westmount's actions constitute criticism of Quebec society. To me that sounds like letting the accusers serve as their own verification. I think Stephen Harper wears a hairpiece, but I can't add that assertion to the article about him and then say it's verified by my claiming it's true. John FitzGerald 18:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
They're also interested people, though. I don't believe they constitute reliable sources. However, no one who is not associated with the article seems interested in commenting, so we'll probably never know. John FitzGerald 13:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Can we point out that two sources are in conflict with each other?
Let's suppose I'm in the year 2050 writing an article on the life of one Avraham Ben Yosef. Having found a reliable Source A, I claim:
"On Feb. 10, 2007, Ben Yosef made a query on the WP:NOR Talk page (Source A)."
Some time later, however, I find an equally reliable Source B that states: "Ben Yosef died on February 9, 2007, from injuries sustained in the Cuban-Indonesian war."
Can I cite both sources and point out that they conflict? For instance:
Is that possible? Or would it be OR to point out the contradiction? -- Abenyosef 18:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) The OR or synthesis in this example is in creating a novel inference in a contentious issue, that was not previously published, whereas WP is supposed to simply summarize reviews by existing sources. In this case, the novel inference is that perhaps Ben Yoseph is lying regarding his education. Nobody has previously noticed that point (and published it), it is solely WP's diligent editors who are putting 2 and 2 together, and in contentious/controversial and especially BLP related issues, this type of inference would be considered OR by synthesis and is hence not acceptable. We would still be able to include source #1, but including source #2 at that point would constitute OR. Crum375 00:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
How about if it's a simple case of two authoritative sports statistics web sites displaying conflicting information? For example, we are trying to figure out over on the Brett Favre article if the NFL.com statistic for number of passing attempts is correct, or if the profootballreference.com and Packers.com statistics are (they differ by 1). Would it be OR to make a note identifying the discrepancy? PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 19:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
If, in a Talk page, I want to argue for or against a source other editors want to include, can I do and show my O.R.? Can I argue, in the [Talk:Vector Calculus] page, against an author who writes about calculus by doing some research on his life and showing that he has never studied mathematics, but has rather spent his whole life growing rhubarbs?-- Abenyosef 19:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that the following paragraph be added to the policy:
Original research is allowed on Talk pages
The reason I suggest this to be added is that actually an awful lot of editors believe you can't do O.R. to check a source.-- Abenyosef 04:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Allow me to insist that the paragraph at the beginning of this posting be written into the Project page. The problem is that the rules are not explicit enough and there are also not enough examples. I think it would be of great help to editors to clarify that, for instance, deletion of materials based on O.R. is not wrong per se.
There is a lot of confusion with regard to O.R. on Talk pages. Some editors, either not knowing that it's allowed or feigning not to know, block other editors from suggesting or questioning sources based on their O.R. I think it's time for the policy to be clear and unequivocal about it: O.R. is allowed on Talk pages.-- Abenyosef 23:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
On the Brett Favre article, there is debate as to including a statistic concerning career number of points scored that can only be derived (as far as we can tell from available sources) by combining statistics available on a football reference site - specifically, the site does not provide the number of points outright, but rather the number of rushing and passing touchdowns scored, both of which would need to be multiplied by 6 and then summed to get the career number of points. Is this an acceptable use of verifiable data or would this be breaching WP:NOR? Thanks, PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 05:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to describe a case possibly exemplifying original research. Does it indeed constitute original research?
Suppose there's a Wikipedia category listing some languages. A statement has been made in some Wikipedia article, that all languages on the list show a certain linguistic trait. However, the article cites no source for the claim. For each of the listed languages, the Wikipedia article about it states that the language it deals with shows the trait, and cites a reliable source for this claim. Does the unsourced statement constitute original research for the purposes of Wikipedia?
The actual incident that's triggered my interest in this question is described next. I've read a sentence in the Hebrew Wikibook for teaching Arabic, that states that Arabic is nowadays the only Semitic language with a case system. Looking for proof of this claim, i came to the English Wikipedia article Semitic languages, where it states: "The proto-Semitic three-case system [...] has disappeared everywhere in the [...] Semitic languages, although Modern Standard Arabic maintains such case endings [...]. An accusative ending -n is preserved in Ethiopian Semitic." This statement is not sourced. I've sent a message to the authors of this statement asking them to state their source, but they haven't responded yet, and it appears they've not been active in Wikipedia for several months. I've been thinking what i could do to substantiate this claim. One possibility would be to peruse the articles about each of the Semitic languages, looking for a reliably sourced claim that the language under discussion has no case system.
Itayb 09:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Let's say I wanted to do a bit of research into which fighting game has the most selectable characters. Now in my opinion, this is original research that could easily be proven with a little work. It also does not seem like the kind of information one could found somewhere else to cite, at least not from a reliable source (even if reliable, it may be out of date). So if I, perhaps with the help of other Wikipedians, checked every fighting game to see which has the most, we should be able to cite ourselves, correct? I got to wondering about this after I realized that The King of Fighters Neowave has 47 selectable fighters, and was considering doing some original research into if this was the highest.
So would the following example perhaps work?
It seems to me that certain statistic type information such as this (highest, lowest, first, last, etc.) should be an exception to OR as it is information that can be undeniably proven by anyone who cares to check well enough. However, the results and process of the person's research should still be made available so that others can verify. Comments?-- SeizureDog 13:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps I should make more clear what the policy problem is here. WP:CITE says "Note: Wikipedia articles and categories cannot be used as sources in and of themselves. Sources must be independent from Wikipedia." The problem isn't the List of fighting games by number of selectable characters article, it's the Super Fighter 13 article that uses it as a source. Can I just ignore this rule?-- SeizureDog 15:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like some opinions on the Juice Plus article. It seems to be well-sourced, but some of the sources are (in my opinion) a bit dubious, such as letters to the editor, the product's distributor manual, and bottle labels. Especially since there have some studies which indicate that the bottle labels are not entirely accurate. It's my opinion that this article is straying well into the realm of original research, and I would appreciate some assistance in sorting through the claims. -- El on ka 16:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) In the citation, I would mention the URL where it can be ordered, since it is not available through the same channels as most sources (libraries and bookstores). Linking to a 3rd party site is called a convenience link. This is allowed if the 3rd party site does not appear to be violating copyright, and is not an extremist site or pushing some point of view. -- Gerry Ashton 15:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
It should be noted that in some areas the product manual is considered a reliable primary source. For example, with aircraft, the specifications and operational limits specified in the flight manual are the official numbers, and conflicting data would only be relevant under extraordinary circumstances (for example if they were contradicted in an accident board report). So product manuals should not be automatically discounted just because the manufacturer is the source. All sources need to be used with common sense. Dhaluza 00:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Never in human history has a quality work been written without original thinking. Wikipedia is no exception. Where there is quality work in Wikipedia, we find original thinking and ultimately original research. It must be so. Such has it always been and such it always will be. 01001 03:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Attribution, a proposal to subsume and replace Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research, is ready to be implemented. Please review the document and discuss any problems on the talk page. — Centrx→ talk • 23:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I have come accross a case in where an editor is resusing to accept that he has engaged in original research by drawing his own conclusions from sources. An editor of the Historical revisionism article includes two examples of historical revisionism - Serbia and the Yugoslav Wars and Macedonism - on what I see as original research.
In the case of Serbia he cites a number of Serbian language (I presume) nationalist websites plus a report from the UN about Serb war crimes to claim this as an example of historical revisionism. None of the sources state anything about Serbian historical revisionism. I see this as a clear cut case of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. The same situation applies to Macedonism, which is not supported by any sources claiming it as an example of historical revisionism. I have informed him of this and suggested that the examples be removed but he does not agree. Any comments? Anyone willing to take action (it would be better if an admin did it than if I acted as a party to the discussion)? Regards Osli73 14:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I gather that WP:ATT is now considered Policy... a merging of WP:V and WP:NOR. I have no problem with this, but I do have a concern with how this is being done. At the moment all three Policies are up and running... and this is going to lead to confusion and argument. The three policies do not completely agree with each other (or to put it more exactly, they agree with each other in surface substance, but they differ in greatly in tone and emphysis). This is especially noticable in the area of reliability of sources (especially Self-published sources - a frequent area of controversy) and how they are dealt with. Look at them side by side: WP:V#Sources, WP:NOR#Sources, WP:ATT#Reliable_sources. As a frequent contributer at WP:RS... a guideline that is supposed to help explain this particular aspect of Policy... I am seeing this conflict of tone writ large. Many of the questions we are asked involve parsing Policy statements and intent. Those of us at WP:RS agree that we need to conform what is said there to what is stated in Policy, but right now there is confusion as to which policy we should conform to. I would therefore request that, if WP:ATT is indeed confirmed as Policy, we redirect WP:V and WP:NOR to that page. If not, please move WP:ATT back to "proposed" status until the community can reach consensus. I don't care which, but we need clarity and not confusion. I have posted this request at the Village Pump Policy Page as well. Thank you. Blueboar 15:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Being bold, I have marked this as {{ historical}}. That should end the confusion alluded to above. (Now let's see how long before I get reverted...) -- EngineerScotty 18:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Even though the policy has been merged, to try to suppress discussion here is not appropriate. If we want to discuss things here, we should be free to do so, just like on any other talk page. Wjhonson 08:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)