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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix, about the best way to consistently title Lost episodes (such as to use a suffix of "(Lost)" or "(Lost episode)"). Interested editors are invited to participate, to ensure consensus. -- Elonka 23:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused over episode naming. I have seen both Episode-name (Show-name) and Episode-name (Show-name episode) used. General naming convention is to describe WHAT the item is, not where it is from - for example, (actor) and (politician) would be preferred for diambiguating two names, and if there were more than one politician, then (Australian politician) and (Canadian politician) would be preferred. using (Australia) and (Canada) would be wrong using this method.
I would have expected television episodes naming conventions to be a subset of the general naming conventions - and as such use (Lost episode) and (Jericho episode) for example. I have seen a few articles using just (Lost) which is wrong - the word "Lost" by itself doesn't do anything to tell you what the article is about, unless you already know that it is an episode of the show. Looking deeper I have found that this is the recommended naming convention for WikiProject Television episodes!
Trying to find past discussion about this is tricky, I've found info scattered over WP:Naming conventions, WP:Naming conventions (television), WP:Disambiguation, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, and the associated talk pages. I'm not sure where I should bring it up, but the episode naming convention should be "(Show name episode)" - it is after all a part of Wikipedia and where possible different projects should not have different naming schemes.
Note: Whether or not episode article names should be pre-emptively disambiguated is another topic altogether! -- Chuq 02:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Requesting comments for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix - a debate over the use of disambiguation titles for episode articles of a TV show when no disambiguation is needed. -- Ned Scott 21:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Since it's being discussed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines I thought it would be good to note this here as well. Here is the reason the Star Trek "exception example" was removed from the guidelines:
To use a disambig title when it is not necessary, for style or consistency reasons seem to be against general naming conventions. For example, one should title the Lost episode "Fire + Water" as Fire + Water instead of Fire + Water (Lost), where "Fire + Water" doesn't exist as another article. Here are some discussions that seem to support this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix, Talk:Fire + Water#Requested move, Talk:List of Torchwood episodes#Article names. One exception was given for this without explanation, Star Trek episodes.
I've been trying to find out how the Star Trek example got in the guideline in the first place, and here's the first edit I've seen it in. The talk page at that time did not have any mentioning of Star Trek, nor did the poll that was taken a few days before. I found two places in the talk archive where Star Trek is mentioned:
Had there been at least something that lead to this addition I would have likely discussed first before removing, but there was not. There is no major support for this, and it's very misleading. The inclusion of the Star Trek example is what mislead me to my own assumption that this was acceptable. If we have an exception in a guideline then the exception needs some explanation, some context. The Star Trek example has none, and its removal was appropriate. -- Ned Scott 00:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Certain shows such as Star Trek and Lost may use different formats. When in doubt, it is best to make new episode articles consistent with the practice that is already in existence for that program.
I am starting this as there is already four discussions on this page regaurding this issue, also It has come up on Talk:Heroes (TV series) and Talk:Jericho (TV series) and though I'm not involved I understand from this page that the debate is also raging (poetic license) on Talk:Lost (TV series). I am going to try to detail the options as I see it and then give my recomendation.
Summary of the issue
Currently there is a bit of confusion since WP:D says that the first article with a given name should be just that name. However in specific to episodic television episode articles, WP:TV-NC says to reference the guidlines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes. Since the project guidlines aren't specific every one seems to be pushing for their own preffered version of NC. This RfC seeks to define a single NC for Television Episode articles.
-- Argash | talk | contribs | 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I created {{User:Argash/TVEpNCRfC}} for placement on appropriate talk pages. Feel free to put on talk pages where you deem appropriate to direct people to this discussion.
Sign to indicate which options you agree with.
A "support" vote means the disambiguation policy for television episode articles should be the same as the general policy: a title only should contain a parenthetical disambiguation if the title is ambiguous, and there are other articles with the same title.
An "oppose" vote means the disambiguation policy for television episode articles should be an exception as the general policy: a television episode's article title should always include the name of the series it is in, regardless of whether or not the episode title is ambiguous.
This section of the poll is regarding what form parenthetical disambiguations for television episodes should take. This is for all parenthetical disambiguations for television episodes, regardless of whether all episodes have parenthetical disambiguations, or only those which are ambiguous.
I guess now that I have summed up the issue I will note that the option that I prefer is the second as it's unifying, descriptive and not overly wordy.
Obviously this is not an exhaustive list of pros v cons but it should be enough to get an idea and debate the issue. I will be posting this to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies and hopefully we can come to a concensus and make a unifying standard.
-- Argash | talk | contribs | 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
This RfC is a bit confusing. For one, the discussion over the Lost episodes is happening on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines and not the other Lost talk page. Also, on the Lost discussion we're mostly talking about the use of disambig titles ("Showtitle (Lost whatever)") when no disambig title is needed. However, the 3 "vote" options presented don't allow for someone to say if they prefer "(Show Name episode)" or "(Show Name)" without needless disambiguation. Can we change the wording on this and the options before people get too far into this so there's less confusion? Also, it'd be nice if we could transclude some of the comments from that Lost talk page to here, as I'd hate to bug everyone again for a second comment. -- Ned Scott 20:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It's not real useful to have the same subject being discussed at multiple places. There's no way this "vote" can be considered binding unless people in the other discussions are notified as well. I only stumbled on this by looking at other people's contributions. That notwithstanding, can someone please explain this supposed watchlist benefit to number 2 above? Are there people that are watching pages but don't want to fix vandalism in them because they're not related to Lost?! Please tell me that's not the case. If an article is in your watchlist, you should look for vandalism in edits to that article, regardless of the article's subject - and certainly regardless of that article's naming convention! — Wknight94 ( talk) 22:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Preemptive disambiguation has always been and continues to be a bad idea. Article titles should consist only of the titles of articles. In some cases, this policy doesn't work because some things have the same title. In those cases, as a last resort, we disambiguate the title using a parenthetical disambiguation. Parenthetical disambiguations are bad thing, to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. We should not be implementing policies that change article titles to generic information containers that contain titles and any other random grab-bag of information, like the name of the series it is a part of, or whatever. It's a muddy semantic mess that would only cause worse semantic muddying elsewhere on Wikipedia. Once we put "(Star Trek episode)" (or whatever) in the title of every Star Trek episode, why not put "(Star Trek character)" after every character or "(2005 novel)" after every novel written last year or "(person who graduated college)" in the title of every article about college graduates, and so on? Star Trek episodes are not special and there is no compelling reason why they should have special exemption to the general policy of only disambiguating when disambiguation is necessary. While it may provide a small benefit in remembering link names for those users who exclusively edit articles relating to Star Trek, for the rest of us, who are just as likely to link to a Star Trek episode as any other article, having a policy of preemptive disambiguation for Star Trek articles is just another dumb exception that has to be memorized and makes Wikipedia less consistent overall. Nohat 23:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Can you guys not pick two options? Seriously, it sets a bad example and it just attempt to have it "one way or the other". Should the two propositions just be merged? Izzy Dot ( talk | contribs) 00:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Nohat, I am assuming good faith regarding your additions to the pros and cons above, but many of them seem (to me, anyway) to be somewhat redundant and some are a little flippant. I invite you to consolidate your arguments a little to more accurately represent the different sides of this issue. Thank you! -- TobyRush 00:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, I think there are two arguments here that should be discussed separately:
The two questions are completely orthogonal, and the current format of the poll conflates them. Nohat 00:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I've updated the poll format a bit so people can state a preference for disabig titles and indicate support or oppose for disabig only when necessary. Those who wish to oppose the latter will need to re-sign under the new section. Sorry for the late change, but I did sort of suggest this early on (and then had to go to work). --
Ned Scott
02:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this discussion could benefit from the KISS principle. Adding disambiguation when unnecessary just complicates things. If "Title" is redirecting to "Title (disambiguation)" the page always gets moved. Any argument that a particular type of article is an exception puts too much emphasis on trivia, which we also like to avoid. Jay32183 03:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the stupid votes for multiple policies and "opposition". Let's be clear: you cannot vote for two things, period. One or the other. By voting for one thing, you're voting against the other. Pick an option and stick with it. Double votes for dabbing and no dabing have been removed. If the voters really care, they can re-add ONE vote to ONE choice and no more. Honestly.... Izzy Dot ( talk | contribs) 07:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick question for those who are supporting sticking with the current policy. Are you voting that way simply because it's the current policy? Not to be rude I just haven't seen anyone give a good and valid reason as to why they prefer that. Mostly what I've seen from your group is "Thats the policy why change it?" I'm really curious to know. -- Argash | talk | contribs | Status:On 09:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Nohat and Wknight94 have explained the "keep it as is" position fairly well, but just for the record I'll add my reasons. I do support the existing policy, because it's a good policy. An article should have the shortest name that identifies its subject clearly, and without ambiguity. As TobyRush points out, parenthetical suffixes on Wikipedia exist to resolve ambiguity between titles, not to provide context for an article's subject. The article does that, ideally in its first line.
I don't think that it's "wrong" to be consistent — I just don't think that context-providing consistency is a value that needs to be taken into account in article naming. I do feel that the example of Agatha Christie novels is relevant — only the devotees of a particular author will recognize the titles of all of her works. Many of them are works in a series, not unlike the episodes of a television series. It's exactly parallel to the television example: if we must label The Unquiet Dead as The Unquiet Dead (Doctor Who episode), then by the same reasoning we should label Five Little Pigs as Five Little Pigs (Hercule Poirot novel). I really don't see the difference. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 19:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I also support the existing policy, not because it's the one that exists, but because it is a good, well thought out, policy. I mentioned the KISS principle above as to why the existing policy is good. Not using disambiguation is always the simplest thing to do, it just isn't always possible because of ambiguity. When ambiguity complicates things anyway, using a longer title is actually useful, but the longer title should still be the simplest one possible. The first time I read the policy I thought, "Well, that makes sense." which is why I used it when naming articles from Xiaolin Showdown. Those articles may not be very good yet, but they all have the simplest name they can, and I've had no trouble keeping track of them in my watchlist even when they don't say (Xiaolin Showdown) after them. Jay32183 19:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Should one of the disambiguation examples be adopted, there is also the problem of series which are named identically but came out at different times. I can think of only one series this applies to, and that is Battlestar Galactica. Currently, for example, we have Take the Celestra (Battlestar Galactica) and Act of Contrition (Battlestar Galactica), both using the pre-emptive disambiguation naming convention, except that the former is from the original 1978 series and the latter from the 2004 remake. Only The Hand of God (Battlestar Galactica) is disambiguated any further because that episode title occurs in both versions. My own personal suggestion, beyond eliminating pre-emptive disambiguation, is for the above examples to become, respectively, Take the Celestra (Battlestar Galactica 1978) and Act of Contrition (Battlestar Galactica 2004). Note that I am not a big fan of making double parenthethis in article names, which is why I did not put them around the years, but if this is an issue, perhaps a hyphen instead? -- BlueSquadronRaven 23:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I see the majory argument for using disambiguation is consistency. On the same principal, having all TV series using the same title format (either disambiguation or no disambiguation) is also very important in terms of consistency. Which means doing massive numbers of moves one way or the other. May as well be no disambiguation because it seems like most TV series do not have the disambiguation.
Also, can someone change the poll questions around? The way they're formatting now is confusing. The "opposse" sections are not needed. A vote for support in one of the three options shows opposse to the other two. Right now, there're people voting support for more than one option. And some people voting oppose on the two options they don't support, and some people not.
Have either just three options and people show support for one of the three. Or have two questions, the first addressing whether we need disambiguation. And the second for what type of disambiguation to use (for people who are pro-disambiguation). -- `/aksha 05:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure who changed/refactored the poll questions, but I now find that I have my name under an item that I do not wish to vote for. "disambiguate only when necesary, and then disambiguate with (SeriesName episode)" is NOT the same as "disambiguate all with (SeriesName episode)". Of course there have been so many edits and changes to the page since then, I don't want to attempt to change them back and risk doing the same thing to someone else. All I can suggest is everyone CHECK their votes! -- Chuq 02:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused now. Have you changed the poll to where if (like me) you favor preemptive dabing I have to oppose the first option and support the second option(which ever one I prefer)? If thats the case I think we need to start the voting over and re-inform people, as I'm sure there are lots of people who came in here, made their choice and left nary to return again. Essentially scewing the vote. To be honest I think the poll was started prematurely anyway before the options were fully discussed. -- Argash | talk | contribs 16:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
In response to Elonka's last comment in this section: You're right, it's a poll, not a vote. With that in mind, we are just collecting information from this poll. With the current format, changed as it is, we can still say there is reasonable credibility for the data collected. We won't be ending this poll right away, and that will give all editors enough time to re-list an oppose "motion" under the oppose section for "disambig only when necessary". Since it's not a vote, and we're just collecting information, I don't really see the need to restart the poll (but still let it be open for at least a few more days, if not a week or so).
Second, the claim that the disambig titles were apart of the Lost episode mediation has been really bugging me. It's completely false. Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes, Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes, and then the message that the mediator posted about the outcome to the top of Talk:List of Lost episodes here.
Third, yes, guidelines should be treated with common sense, and exceptions should be made where reasonable. We all agree on that. However, what many of us are saying is that you are not presenting a reasonable exception, or even one that could be considered common sense. Flexibility can be a good thing, but without a good reason it becomes a problem. -- Ned Scott 03:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I am actually amazed by how many people involved in this discussion, who think they know disambiguation rules backwards and forwards, are completely oblivious to how wrongheaded the idea of "voting" is on Wikipedia. This is not a vote. This is a discussion. This is not a "majority rules" situation. This is not a case of trying to find a "winner" or a "loser". The poll serves only to get a rough idea of where people stand on a complex issue. What it is showing me, is that we do not have a clear consensus, and that we need to keep talking about this, in good faith. I encourage everyone to eliminate the words "vote", "policy", "winning" and "losing" from their vocabulary, as these words are not helpful. Please instead very carefully read Wikipedia:Consensus, Wikipedia:Guideline (where it specifically talks about how "voting" on guidelines is a common error), and WP:VIE. -- Elonka 20:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it all seems pretty okay to me. I've made comments to those whose votes may been misinterpreted in hopes that they'll return to correct any perceived mistake. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Please forgive me but I have not read the 66 KB discussion thus far. I would suggest that disambiguation be done as necessary but "Title (series episode)" be created as a redirect regardless. My reason is simple: when writing episode lists or cross-linking episodes you can guarantee that you have not made an ambiguous link which can be absurdly prevalent when episodes have common names like Genesis (of which there are no less than 5 episodes named this). It is nigh impossible to auto-disambiguate a link and it is a much better visitor experience to skip through a redirect (which requires no extra work by the visitor) than to be faced with a dab page, or worse, the wrong article completely. Always having "Title (series episode)" whether it is the actual article or a redirect is the best choice from the perspective of a reader.
So, as long as "Title (series episode)" gets me to the correct article...I don't care what is decided above. Cburnett 00:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Comment Always making the redirect would solve one of the problems claimed by the people wanting to deviate from the existing policy, and redirects are cheap. Even though I think pre-emptive dabbing is bad, making a redirect for any reasonable search term is good. Within articles readers will never see the dabbing because the links will be piped, so the consistant look will be there on tables and nav boxes. The reasoning behind minimizing the dabbing is to keep Wikipedia elegant and simple. Seeing no dab link to a dab just seems weird, but dab redirecting to no dab is definitely done, because recoding the pages that link to a redirect requires more server space than letting a redirect sit there. Jay32183 04:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it sounds like we're all reaching a group hug point here so let's let this particular thread die before it gets nastier. Let's leave all of the articles and redirects the way they are for now in the hopes this whole discussion comes to some conclusion (if such a thing is possible). It's beneficial to have them all locked at the moment - and I'd unlock them if I thought otherwise. In cases like this, two or three people always feel the urge to declare the discussion concluded and all of a sudden a wild move war breaks out. Ordinarily, I'd come down on intentionally blocking page moves - and I will be happy to unblock them myself when this discussion is concluded - but, in this case, it turns out to be helpful. — Wknight94 ( talk) 12:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Uh...iIf I may inject here, creating a redirect doesn't pervent a move to that title. For example, the article " Koragg the Knight Wolf can still be moved to the title Leanbow or the title Koragg. In the case of the former option, Leanbow was created as a redirect and only has the edit of creation in its history. Wikimedia setup allows for this to be easily overwritten in a move. Similarly, Koragg, the latter option, has only the edit of a move from that title to Koragg the Knight Wolf. In both cases, the end result is that an article can still move into a title held by a redirect with only one edit in its history. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but I have to ask about this comment saying disambiguating all of the titles "shows that they are part of a seires (sic)". The only place the disambiguated names would all be seen at once is in the category — but, by definition, just being in the category shows they are in a series! Folks in opposition to question 1 above apparently want to use disambiguation to do categorization. — Wknight94 ( talk) 03:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, who wants to decide whether this discussion is concluded? We've had two reverts at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) today so folks are apparently getting antsy. The noise has died down a bit here too. I'm not going to be the one to do anything drastic (and I never intended to, Elonka) but this is a little nudge. :) — Wknight94 ( talk) 17:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The solution must:
- Allow readers to easily find the article in question
- Allow other readers to easily find other articles with the same name
It would be preferrable to have a solution which:
- Does not create an exception to WP:D
- Allows linked lists of episodes to be formatted alike
- Provides a predictable format for editors to use when creating links
- Establishes a consistent naming convention which can be used by all TV shows
It would be nice to have a solution which:
- Provides series context within the article name
- Causes episode articles to be named consistently in watchlists and category lists
Although there is still vocal dissent from a few editors, I think that there is a broad consensus for Cburnett's suggestion. I think we're ready to put it on the page. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
If it would help us to reach a more complete consensus, we could add a sentence like TobyRush suggested above. Another alternative could be:
How's that, Elonka? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Am i the only one who sees a major contradiction in how it is the same people who want the suffix because it is creates consistency advocating for certain TV series to be exceptions, which reduces consistency over all the TV series? What's the point of doing something that's mostly redundant just to make one tiny group of articles more consistent, but wikipedia in general less?
And since when did small individual wikiprojects have power to make decisions that override wikipedia-wide guildlines? Especially when wikiprojects can be so small that it's basically one or two people making decisions, and then claiming "the project reached a consensus". -- `/aksha 01:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I hope that everyone at least can agree that worrying about an episode article name should be the last thing we think about. It is first important to determine if individual articles are even the best way to go. A "natural" progress for inclusion of episode information should be:
Too many bad situations are caused by people jumping right to #5. -- Netoholic @ 19:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't suppose there's a place to propose merges that can result in binding decisions (like the way AfD produces a final binding decision on whether to delete or not)? -- `/aksha 01:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Since the old poll got so tangled, I recommend we close it, and discuss our next step, such as working on a potential new paragraph for the Guideline, by finding wording that everyone agrees with. If we have obvious consensus, it can go into the guideline. If we don't have consensus, then we work on changing the wording until we do. For example, in other guidelines where there was controversy, the way I've seen it handled, is that in that particular section of the guideline, it simply says, "Controversy exists about whether or not action A or action B is better."
I especially liked TobyRush's summary up above, which did a good job of reflecting the opinions here, so I started with that and put it into more of a paragraph form. Here's my suggestion, but feel free to suggest different wording:
There is some controversy about the exact way to title episode articles, but the general consensus is that in most cases, articles about individual episodes should use the title of the episode itself, unless that title is already in use, in which case the episode article should include (<seriesname> episode) as a disambiguating suffix.
In some cases, certain series may use slightly different systems, such as to use a disambiguating suffix of simply (<seriesname>) or even to include a consistent suffix on all episodes of a particular series, regardless of whether or not they are strictly required by disambiguation rules. Advantages to this system are that linked lists of episodes use a consistent titling scheme, and it becomes easier to link between episodes if many of them (or even the majority) already had suffixes. Other advantages are that it is convenient to include series context with an article's title, categories look more consistent, and specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists. Disadvantages are that there may be some confusion if a suffix which normally implies disambiguation, is used on an article that did not need disambiguating; and the additional unneeded suffix results in a longer article title than necessary. So, these "exception" types of methods remain controversial, and are generally discouraged (see the talk page for more information).
How's that? Does this address everyone's concerns? -- Elonka 23:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph looks fine. The rest just seems to be an excuse to let people who don't prefer the chosen method to make exceptions, which makes the whole thing a waste of time. In some cases, certain series.. no no no! There is absolutely NO logical reason why one series should use a different format to another series, and why any TV series should use a different format to Wikipedia in general. The only reasons seem to be "it is already like that" and "the WikiProject <TV series> editors like it that way". The advantages and disadvantages listed are not specific to any one show; and as such, different shows shouldn't stray from them. it becomes easier to link between episodes .. no, not if you edit articles about different shows and every show has a different format. specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists - this is what "shared watchlists" (such as this) are for. -- Chuq 00:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Articles about individual episodes should use the title of the episode itself, unless that title is already in use, in which case the episode article should include (<seriesname> episode) as a disambiguating suffix.
I think the poll that took place the last week or so is essentially saying that the guideline is fine the way it is. Frankly, I'm not sure what the purpose of this new section is. Enough with the false compromises and red herrings. We're all repeating ourselves yet again. — Wknight94 ( talk) 05:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Guideline: "People are sometimes tempted to call a vote on a guideline, but this is a bad idea because it polarizes the issue (see Voting is evil for details). Instead, a guideline is made by listening to objections and resolving them." As regards this naming conventions guideline, it is clear that there are objections, so the guideline should reflect that there is controversy. A few people repeatedly saying that there isn't controversy, and making personal attacks or otherwise harassing anyone raising good faith objections, is not "listening to objections and resolving them." I have offered a compromise wording, which is to state a primary method of titling episodes, while admitting that exceptions (and controversy) exist. I think that's pretty fair. If someone wants to suggest different wording though, I'm listening. -- Elonka 20:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Every article in Wikipedia, including every article about a TV episode, should be named in accordance with Wikipedia policy and guidelines, including WP:NC, WP:NC(CN), WP:D, etc. More specific naming guidelines should only apply in those cases where a known ambiguity issue exists. That is, if the name of the episode is not used in Wikipedia for any other article, that should be the name of the article about that episode, period. If there is an ambiguity issue, then it's appropriate to look for guidelines here and/or at an appropriate Wikiproject, but, even then, those are only guidelines. In the end, each article should be treated independently. Trying to impose a naming convention that inherently violates fundamental general Wikipedia naming conventions only creates conflict, and understandably so. — Serge 16:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
There is a TV episode article entitled Hole in One. There is a requested move survey to move it to Hole in One (TV episode) at Talk:Hole in One. -- Serge 22:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that we have a tentative consensus about the general guideline, and there are now two items upon which there is still some disagreement:
Regarding the first item: Since WP:D states that "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception," we should recognize that there may be a situation where an exception to this guideline is appropriate. Rather than use Lost or Star Trek, for which there is guideline-related disagreement, allow me to suggest a hypothetical television show, Wikipedians. This show, described by its fans as "a show about userboxes," has an very interesting distinction: its episodes are named in such a way that the episode article titles require pre-emptive disambiguation. In fact, naming an episode article without a disambiguating phrase would cause the internet to collapse. So it exists as a common-sense exception to the guidelines here at TV:NC.
(Now, before you argue that there is no such show, remember that WP:D notes that guidelines can have exceptions, and so this serves as the hypothetical common-sense exception that may someday be found, and that we should accept and be prepared for.)
So, assuming the existence of this hypothetical series, do we make any mention of exceptions here, on the guideline page? If we do not, we are trusting that future editors will know about WP:D's allowance of common-sense exceptions. If we do mention the exceptions on the guideline page, we risk encouraging editors to find reasons to make needless exceptions to the guideline. Elonka's argument, as I understand it, is that we should make this decision based on the possibility of series that have justifiable reasons to exempt themselves from the guideline. I think that's a extremely valid argument that is in keeping with Wikipedia:Guideline. (Elonka, I hope I'm not misrepresenting you here!) That said, I am leaning toward not including the exception verbiage here, but I can certainly see the merit of doing it both ways.
Lost and Star Trek are both great shows (well, I actually haven't seen Lost yet, so keep the spoilers away, please), but they're not helping us achieve consensus here. It seems to me that we should work toward consensus on a general guideline, and then take that guideline to individual shows and debate there whether or not the shows qualify as common sense exceptions. It's hard to focus on the merits of a general guideline when controversial exceptions keep getting thrown in, and I think it will help those individual discussions if we can create a general guideline and achieve broad consensus on it.
Regarding the second item: One of the reasons we chose against pre-emptive disambiguation was that the title of the article need not establish context (that's the job of the first line of the article itself). Therefore, the disambiguating phrase need only serve to identify the article among the other articles on the disambiguation page. If someone is looking for the article about Futurama article "The Sting," they will quickly determine that The Sting (Futurama) is what they're looking for, and not The Sting (1973 film). However, as Josiah pointed out above, Dalek (Doctor Who) would need to be expanded to Dalek (Doctor Who episode) to distinguish it from Dalek (Doctor Who race). -- Toby Rush ‹ ✆| ✍ › 23:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it easier to find a page with "episode" in its title, based on wikipedia's search? Is putting the word "episode" in the first sentence equivalent? What if you search for " csi episode"? Do we care about how the search results may change? - Peregrinefisher 07:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as though this discussion is petering out and certainly has gone nowhere as far as explaining a Lost-specific exception to the guideline, I don't personally see a problem with bringing the Lost episode articles at question to WP:RM now. Any strong objections? — Wknight94 ( talk) 17:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Let's try to see if the reasons that have been given as justifications for WikiProject exceptions hold water. For the sake of presenting the arguments fairly, I will use Elonka's words, not my own. I see three classes of argument:
Assuming these three classes are the primary reasons given, let's examine them one at a time.
From my point of view, the objections to these reasons are all much stronger than the reasons themselves. I would greatly appreciate any responses to these arguments, and any further reasons that I have missed. Thank you. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
My response:
Josiah: Just because you disagree with someone else's point of view, does not mean that it's a good idea to refer to their opinions as "not holding water," or "unreasoned." I think it would be better to try and get away from this polarizing view of "There's only one right way to do things, and anyone who disagrees is 'wrong.'" My own view on the matter is that there are *multiple* right ways to do things. To try and break down my reasoning by your categories though:
And I'm adding another category:
In summary, I believe that there are multiple "correct" ways to handle television episode articles, and that the guidelines here should not be looked at as a way to enforce one and only one system, but as a recommendation for a primary method, while allowing that occasional exceptions are not necessarily a problem. -- Elonka 21:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, thank you for responding. I'd like to point out that at no point did I claim that your arguments were "unreasoned" — that word is yours, not mine.
I disagree with your suggestion that the prevalence of preemptive disambiguation for television episode page titles is indicative that this preemptive disambiguation is "intuitive". I would suggest instead that it is merely imitative. Due to Wikipedia's systemic bias, the Star Trek series were among the first television series to have WIkipedia pages for all episodes. Thus, the example of the Star Trek pages was readily available, and was widely imitated by fans of other television series. This doesn't mean that the preemptive disambiguation is less confusing than disambiguating only when necessary, only that it appeared to be "the way Wikipedia does things". However, outside of the realm of television, it is not the way that Wikipedia has done things, and it's time that this misconception was corrected.
I also disagree with your statement that "the only reason that has been given to change this method, is that it's "against the guidelines." " The supporters of the current guideline have given many reasons why preemptive disambiguation is a bad idea. It is true that we frequently refer to existing guidelines such as WP:D, but that is because those guidelines are well supported both by reason and by unambiguous Wikipedia-wide consensus.
As for the sentence you quoted from WP:NC, I think that Cburnett's wise suggestion of redirects addresses those concerns adequately.
I believe that you are incorrect in saying that context-providing is regularly done with people's names — this is only done when there are more than one person with the same name. And that's the point — when there's only one subject with a given title, that subject should be at that title without disambiguation. Jawaharlal Nehru is not disambiguated to Jawaharlal Nehru (Indian Prime Minister), nor should it be. Instead, Jawaharlal Nehru is placed in the category Category:Prime Ministers of India. Similarly, Whatever the Case May Be is in Category:Lost episodes — there's no need for it to be at Whatever the Case May Be (Lost).
As for the example of ships, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships) explains the reasons why naval ships are labelled with their hull numbers: specifically, because "It is extremely common for many ships to share a name. Therefore disambiguation needs special attention." I believe that the example of USS Virginia (ten ships by that name) is more common than USS Eichenberger (one ship) — and note that USS Eichenberger is a redirect to USS Eichenberger (DE-202).
As for the issue of WikiProject consensus, I see no evidence that the editors of this page are riding roughshod over previously established WikiProject consensuses. Indeed, great lengths have been taken to include the members of WikiProjects who have been preemptively disambiguating. The Star Trek WikiProject in particular has been invited to join the conversation on several occasions. No one is saying that the decisions of a WikiProject are overridden by the views of non-project members. All that is being said is that if a WikiProject makes a decision that appears to be in contradiction to a general Wikipedia guideline or policy, that decision should be explained and justified to the larger community. Ideally, such an explanation would lead to a general conversation about the guidelines and their applicability to the case at hand. If the WikiProject's reasons for exceptions are clear and valid, they will be understood by people from outside the specialist subject, and accepted. That has not happened in this case.
Elonka, I think that you're right that guidelines are meant to be recommendations rather than absolute rules with no exceptions. Where we differ is the question of whether to explicitly list examples of those exceptions in the guideline. What I and others have been trying to say is that if you explicitly list exceptions to the guideline, the guideline becomes almost meaningless, because editors will say, "There are exceptions at x and y, so I'll make another exception at z. Now, there may indeed be legitimate reasons why editors at Star Trek in particular have chosen to preemptively disambiguate. However, those reasons have not been stated on this page. And I think it is a very bad idea to enshrine an exception into a guideline without having a clear idea of the reasoning behind it. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 22:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"the fact remains, that there is a natural tendency for new episode articles to be created with a suffix" No, there's no such tendency. this template is added to all "list of episode" articles. A "what links here" for it shows it's been transcluded into about 600 pages, almost all of which are episode list articles.
After combing through the list, i managed to find a total of only 57 TV series that create articles with a suffix by default (list is here).
So quite frankly, you are wrong. There is no such tendency. The vast majority of TV series don't disambiguate unnessasarily. -- `/aksha 04:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Brilliant summary up there Josiah Rowe.
It seems like the bottom line is that we're argueing about whether or not to use unneeded disambiguation when there're absolutely no valid reasons for doing so. What a waste of time. The current guildlines are fine as it is, just because two people disagreeing doesn't mean we need to scratch/change it.
The question remaining now is whether to allow exceptions to the guildlines. I can't really see a problem here either. Everyone agrees that guildlines are just guildlines and common sense exceptions are always allowed when there are valid reasons for it. And the exceptions we're talking about here...don't seem to have any valid reasons, as pointed out above.
Can we sort of...try and get things wrapped up here?
Unless of course, anyone here has anything new to say. -- `/aksha 11:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Star Trek and Lost have been mentioned as examples of shows that haven't followed the policy on naming, but there seem to be more than that (just looking a bit, more seem to violate the policy than follow it). Has anyone checked to see how many shows aren't following the policy (and could potentially face article renaming)? Do people intend to move every article they find that doesn't follow the policy? -- Milo H Minderbinder 16:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
To clear up some confusions about what people think I said, I am not advocating that all television episode articles should use a suffix, I am stating that some series, in my opinion, should be allowed to exhibit an exception to standard disambiguation guidelines. Further, I think that it makes sense for those editors who are most familiar with a particular subset of subject matter, to make that determination. For example, let's look at the Star Trek articles in Category:Star Trek episodes. In fact, let's get even more specific and look at Category:Star Trek: The Original Series episodes, where all of the episodes currently have a consistent suffix, "(TOS episode)". I realize that a couple of editors here at WP:NC-TV (specifically Wknight94 and Ned Scott) regard the Star Trek format as "evil", and they're itching to go in there and move articles to what they regard as "the right" titles. But, it's not that simple,' and further, I think that adamantly trying to enforce WP:NC-TV as a "policy", runs the danger of being actively disruptive. Here's my reasoning: The articles in that Star Trek category have been stable for quite some time. But what exactly is it that Wknight94 and Ned Scott want to do? To move every single episode that doesn't need disambiguation to just the episode title? Then, what about those with "(TOS episode)". Are we moving all of those as well, to "(Star Trek episode)", since that was the original name of the series? Or are we going to saddle each one of those episodes with the absurdly long suffix of "(Star Trek: The Original Series episode)"? I strongly believe that this is not a determination that we should be making here from WP:NC-TV -- this is a determination that the Star Trek editors who deal with these articles on a daily basis should be making, and have made, and we should trust that they acted in good faith. Also, though I'm doing some crystal ball work here, I'm willing to bet that even if we had consensus here at WP:NC-TV, and then were to suddenly descend on the Star Trek articles like birds of prey (pardon the pun) and move things around, that there would be other Star Trek editors who hadn't heard of this discussion, who would suddenly perk up and yell, "Hey! What the hell??." So there would be a good chance that categories which have been relatively peaceful for months, would suddenly turn into a battleground. Is this really what we want?
In other words, It ain't broke, so why does it need fixing? Let's please trust that editors who are familiar with the subject matter, who are familiar with the various ways of distinguishing the different series, have been doing their best, in good faith, to come up with a reasonable and professional way of handling those many episodes. We shouldn't be trying to micro-manage every TV series from here, we should just be coming up with a general guideline, and then allowing for exceptions. -- Elonka 23:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Why must Star Trek (or any other show) have an exception to the policies and guidelines? If those episode pages were to get moved to names consistent with the rest of wikipedia, how exactly would that make those pages any worse? And what does "familiarity with the subject" have to do with naming? What could possibly be so unique to Star Trek that it requires a different naming convention than every other article on wikipedia? It sounds like you just want to make your own rules instead of following the WP rules. -- Milo H Minderbinder 00:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any point in waiting. Elonka had already posted a notice on the talk pages of all the star trek episode main articles (that is, the "list of" articles) ( here, here, here, here and here) 10 days ago. notices were also posted onto the disambiguation guildline talk page and the NC main guildline talk page asking for people to join in. It's long enough warning for people to join us.
Elonka, your entire argument breaks down when we see exactly how the disambiguation standard in the star trek articles came about. Here're the previous discussions by the star trek project on naming conventions:
I suggest everyone take a look, they're not all that long.
Now is this enough for everyone?-- `/aksha 04:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Greetings, Star Trek editors!
There has been an extended discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) for several weeks concerning the naming of television episode articles on Wikipedia. A consensus has been reached that article titles should only include disambiguating phrases when there is another article on Wikipedia with the same name as the episode name. Thus, Circus Knights would not need any disambiguation, where Nobody Does It Better (Knight Rider) would, in order to differentiate it from Nobody Does It Better (song).
This has actually been a very long-thought-out discussion, and has had input from many editors from many different shows and WikiProjects, including Star Trek. However, because the Star Trek episodes are so plentiful, and have used a differing system for some time now, the editors contributing to TV:NC felt it appropriate to mention it here before people started moving episode articles to new names. Rest assured that these changes are not being made flippantly, but only after a long discussion about how to best comply with Wikipedia's general article naming scheme.
Thank you for your help!
I changed this:
to this:
because otherwise episodes named after characters who don't necessarily deserve their own pages (such as The Outrageous Okona or Inca Mummy Girl) might get disambiguated. Recording my reasoning here in case anyone disagrees. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 06:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The "might reasonably have" language is open to too much interpretation, unnecessarily, I think. I suggest (but did not change):
Requiring a page move in the rare instances where a page is created with a conflicting character or object name is no big deal. We require the same for any undisambiguated episode title should another page with the same name in Wikipedia be created. -- Serge 06:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Milo Minderbinder made a good point above, that there are lots more television series not in compliance with this guideline than just the Star Trek series. Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, for instance, seem to follow the Star Trek model — I only just noticed this when Inca Mummy Girl came up as a redlink above. While we're dropping polite notes, we should probably drop one at the Buffyverse WikiProject too. Does anyone know what other series are preemptively disambiguating, and whether they have WikiProjects? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 07:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Tons, actually...
stargate -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate (Project informed on 10/11)
lost -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Lost just waiting for speedy deletion requests to come through, otherwise done
star trek -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Star Trek
buffy and angel -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Buffyverse (Project informed on 10/11)
4400 -
Wikipedia:WikiProject The 4400
some mortal combat series -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat (done)
episodes for these TV series are also in the Star Trek format:
Big Love (done)
Desperate Housewives (done)
Charmed(done)
Firefly (TV series)(false alarm)
Six Feet Under(done)
Battlestar Galactica (fixed now)
List of Battlestar Galactica (re-imagined series) episodes (done)
Dark Angel (TV series)(false alarm)
Forever Knight(done)
Harsh Realm(done)
LEXX(done)
The Outer Limits (old series) done
The Outer Limits (new series)done
Roswell (TV series) Verified for episodes which have articles - most episodes do not. --
Serge
00:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Sliders (done)
The X-Files
Torchwood (false alarm, the disambiguation was actually needed on torchwood episodes)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2003 TV series)
Frasier
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987 TV series)
InuYasha
House (TV series) done
That '70s Show admin assitance needed for
Hyde's Father (That '70s Show episode) otherwise done
M*A*S*H
Naruto seems to have an issue over what the actual titles should be for episodes that haven't aired in North America
The O.C.
The Wire (TV series)
Blackadder
Fullmetal Alchemist done
My Name Is Earl
Prison Break
Ben 10
The Prisoner
The Sopranos
X-Men
Code Lyokodone
Planetes
The Pretender (TV series)
Sex and the Citydone
CSI: Crime Scene Investigation
Strangers with Candydone
Entourage (TV series) (done) --
Serge
00:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Langt fra Las Vegas(done)
8 Simple Rules
Eureka (TV series)(done)
Supernatural (TV series)(done)
Oz (TV series)(done)
Ōban Star-Racers(done)
Weeds (TV series)(done)
Law & Order: Criminal Intent (done)
Jericho (TV series)(done)
That should be all of it.
In other words, tons of article moving if people decide to go through with this. Any volunteers here? --
`/aksha
11:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Greetings! There is currently an active discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (television) about how to title television episode articles (specifically, when suffixes are and aren't a good idea). The goal of these discussions is to hopefully attain a Consensus, which will then be enforced on all episode articles of all television series, all over Wikipedia. Since the result of this discussion will very likely directly impact the naming of this particular article, any editors involved with this article are encouraged to join the discussion. IF YOU DO NOT PARTICIPATE, YOU SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE RESULTING DECISION. If you would like to participate, please join the discussion at: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)#RfC - Episode suffixes. Thanks!
- Greetings, <nameofseries> editors!
- As you may be aware, for the last several weeks there has been extensive discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) about how Wikipedia articles on television episodes should be named. Editors from many areas of Wikipedia, including members of several different television WikiProjects, have worked together and come up with a general guideline that article titles should include disambiguating phrases only when there is another article on Wikipedia with the same name as the episode name. Thus, if you were creating episode articles for Knight Rider, the episode Circus Knights would not need any disambiguation, whereas Nobody Does It Better (Knight Rider) would, in order to differentiate it from Nobody Does It Better (song). However, the guideline also recommends that Circus Knights (Knight Rider) exist as a redirect to the episode.
- The discussion has been fairly well-advertised at the Village Pump, in many WikiProjects' talk pages and on the talk pages of many television program episode lists. However, the editors contributing to the discussion at WP:TV-NC felt that it was appropriate to make one last call for discussion before people started moving episode articles to new names.
- We've noticed that many episodes of <nameofseries> are pre-emptively disambiguated: for example, <exampleepisode> is at <examplelocation>, even though there is no Wikipedia article at <examplelocationwithoutdisambig>. If you feel that there are strong reasons for this that have not already been considered, please join the discussion at WT:TV-NC. (The current recommendations have been reached after much consideration, and are based on a long discussion about how to best comply with Wikipedia's general article naming scheme.)
- We appreciate the work that editors do in every area of Wikipedia, and want you to feel included in the decision-making process. Thank you for your help!
I think it's a bit dicey to ask "Should WikiProjects about a particular show, be allowed to make decisions that affect the article titles for that show, or must all decisions go through WP:NC-TV?" The question basically asks if NC-TV should have any authority - if the end result is "no" then you might as well disband NC-TV completely. If you want to change the policy, propose a new wording of the policy. I think the wording of the current poll is just fine, if the validity is questioned because it changed during the poll, just run it again. Also, the issue isn't even whether TV shows must follow NC-TV - the shows in question violate WP:NAME and WP:D. If you really want to name episodes however you want, the proper course of action is to get those two changed (or at the very least post the same notice there and any similarly appropriate places). Trying to override those two from a subset of wikipedia doesn't seem fair to the rest of the editors. -- Milo H Minderbinder 21:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The list didn't actually take that long. Thanks to the fact that almost all "list of [TV series] episode" articles use the same few templates. I just did a lot of "what links here" for the templates.
Yes, posting a note to the stargate project and the buffyverse project would be poliet, and i'm about to do that.
Star Trek has already been informed on many talk pages, but there's be 0 response on any of them. I think it's safe to assume they're well informed but just don't care/mind.
Most of the ppl in the lost and 4400 project are already here. And parrallel discussions were already going on in those two projects before they got bought here, so they're well informed.
As for the series without projects, let's just go ahead. We need to balance practicality with the need to include everyone. We should just make sure we always explain and link here on the summaries so it gives people a fair chance to come here and complain/debate the moves. -- `/aksha 00:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Josiah, your version of the "polite note" is excellent; I was thinking of something along the same lines all day but haven't been able to get to a computer until now. :)
Looking at this from the point of view from a new editor coming into the discussion, I wonder if it would be beneficial to:
The second point here is served pretty well by Josiah's previous summary, but we might be able to make it easier for new people by restating that in a way that is oriented toward them. Does anyone else think this would be useful? I'd hate for anyone to be turned off by the sheer length of prose on this talk page, if they're just looking for some enlightenment on the naming convention. -- Toby Rush ‹ ✆| ✍ › 07:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I thought I'd check in here, as I've had to start a deletion review over an episode article that was deleted on the grounds that, according to guidelines, episodes with more than one part should be included entirely within the same article. Can anyone cite or otherwise verify this for me, or is it a load of hooey? -- BlueSquadronRaven 18:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
WOW! I've been gone for a few days and it looks like this just exploded and has now started to move towards a conclusion. Could someone give me the executive summary so I don't have to read through it all? Also we may want to archive this (if the discussions all done) and rather then calling it /Archive 4 with just a date it might be best to call it /Disambig Guidline Discussion that way it's easily identifiable. -- Argash | talk | contribs 09:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, thank you to Yaksha for letting the project know about this discussion - it seems we managed to miss it somehow (at least, I haven't noticed any names from people active on the project). Secondly, I'd like to explain how we do Stargate episodes and why. All episodes are "disambiguated" with either (Stargate SG-1) or (Stargate Atlantis), non-episode articles are disambiguated with (Stargate) only when necessary. The main reason for this is consistancy - it makes it much easier to link to episodes when you know exactly where to find them. Having redirects would help, but it's always best to link directly to an article if you can. One of the most important times we need to know the exact names is with out templates, of which we use a lot. The main ones relevant to this discussion are {{ sgcite}} and {{ xsgcite}} which take the name of the episode (and optionally the initial of the show, defaulting to SG-1) and output it with the appropriate disambiguation in the appropriate format for mentioning episodes inline, and in references, respectively.
If we were going to move all the articles to undisambiguated titles, we'd end up linking to redirects almost every time we mention an episode. -- Tango 09:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, one of the good things about redirects is that you can link to the "wrong article" but readers will still arrive at the "right article". However, i don't quite understand what you said about the templates. If we moved the star trek episode articles, exactly what is going to go wrong with the templates? Will they just result in links which are redirects, or is there also some other concern? -- `/aksha 10:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, we've decided to follow WP's rules for disambiguation. Let's decide if a page that must be disambiguated should have (showname) or (showname episode) appended to it. Obviously, if (showname) is chosen and it's already taken by a character page or someting, use (showname episode). - Peregrinefisher 17:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I still feel quite strongly that the earlier RfC poll is invalid, because its format and wording were changed so many times while it was in-process. [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48]for just a few diffs to indicate the mass confusion.
As such, I'd like to start over fresh, with a summary of the issue, and a new poll, where we agree on the wording beforehand, then open it, and refrain from changing the wording while it's in process. As such, here's my own "nutshell synopsis" of the issue as it stands:
Does this sound like a fair summary of the issue, and a fair wording of a poll question? If not, please feel free to suggest alternate wording. -- Elonka 20:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, here's a compromise proposal. If you ask the people who voted against the guideline you want, and explain to them what the vote was really for, and you find more than a few people that eseentially say, "Oh!!! Is that what I supported! I wanted to vote on the other side!", then we can restart the poll. What do people think of that? Your appeal for re-starting the poll is alleged procedure problems, but the appeal needs to be won (i.e., the procedure problems need to be proven) before the poll can be re-run. — Wknight94 ( talk) 22:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, I already posted messages to those same people a long time ago. They all seem totally disinterested. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka - You're providing evidence that things were changed around - no one is disputing that. I'm asking for evidence that any of the votes up there currently does not reflect the position of the voter at that time the vote was made. Second, you're ignoring Josiah's lucid argument about the problem with relying on polls in the first place, and the discussion establishing the true and preferred consensus. Third, you're ignoring the fact that voters were notified about the changes. Fourth, are you serious about "it won't matter how many polls we do"? Requiring people to revote is unfair (which is why I'm abstaining from the survey started today about whether "episode" should be included - even though there was no consensus on that point established). We should try to avoid voting in the first place (per Josiah's argument). We should try to avoid revotes even more. I'm starting to believe that you're just complaining for the perhaps-unconscious-and-so-in-good-faith purposes of simply delaying changes that you (and hardly anyone else) happen to oppose. -- Serge 23:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
For the most part, I don't think those diffs really prove much of anything. The question didn't really change, just the debate around it. And if anyone felt like their vote was invalidated by the change, why haven't they said so themselves. It just seems like an excuse to re-do and hope there's a different result, even though the discussion itself shows a pretty strong consensus. And I take strong issue with the proposed summary, it's incredibly biased toward those who don't want to follow the naming guidelines among other things. I'm glad to see that articles are already being renamed, let's hope that attempts at stalling don't slow it down. -- Milo H Minderbinder 23:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Did someone just accuse me of being a fucking sockpuppet? I ain't nobody's puppet, hear? Izzy Dot ( talk | contribs) 00:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
No, waste of time. Discussion reached agreements, so what's the point of dragging everyone around for a new poll? We're in the agreement that the guildline should be "disambiguate only when needed", now all you're arguing about is whether to allow exceptions. The episode articles for about half a dozen series have already been moved, and there's no evidence of there being any disruption caused. Quite the opposite actually (see the reply here). So exactly what are you argueing for? to change the guildlines around to "always disambiguate"? Or is this back down to the fact that you want Lost episodes and Star Trek episodes to say the way they are? -- `/aksha 03:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
As for why I want a new poll, I believe that with the vitriole in this discussion, where a few editors with highly uncivil communication styles are attacking anyone who disagrees with them, that this environment has not been conducive to civil discussion. Further, I believe that this discussion has been dominated by a few editors who have the time to post multiple times per day, but I do not agree that someone who posts more often, should have their opinion given more weight than that of someone who can only post a few times per week. This is another reason that I would like to see a fair poll conducted, to ensure that we have the widest possible participation, where different editors' voices are given equal weight.
Anyway, after wading through the latest series of personal attacks and incivility, here's what I've distilled as the next round of potential new poll wording. Do folks like this better?
And folks, please try to keep comments civil? I've been asked why I don't specifically reply to everyone's comments here, and one reason is, that as soon as someone resorts to personal attacks or uncivility, I tend to ignore anything else they have to say (as is recommended in WP:CIVIL). So if you want your voice to be heard, please concentrate on being polite, being civil, and showing that you have as much respect for the opinions of editors who disagree with you, as respect for the opinions of those who agree with you. A civil discussion all around, will help things to move along much more smoothly. Thanks, -- Elonka 23:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Alright, so I haven't heard any objections to the new poll wording so far. Let's give it another day or so, and then if there are still no objections, we'll open, and announce on all the List/WikiProject pages about the new poll. -- Elonka 21:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
There are sufficient calls for a new poll, that we are going to proceed with one. Once the new poll is announced, we can put the word out to all the WikiProjects to come in and participate. If, as some of the individuals in this discussion insist, there is already consensus, it will show up in the poll. If not, we need to keep talking, and/or take this to mediation or ArbCom.
The poll format will be thusly. If anyone would like changes, please be specific:
I think that this poll system also has the advantage of allowing people to post specific opinions, rather than a simply polarized support/oppose, which will further facilitate the "discussion" nature of this issue.
Last call: Any concerns about the wording? -- Elonka 18:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm opposed to having another poll, particularly before Josiah's argument about the discussion being the preferred way to establish consensus, not polls, is addresed. And also Ned's analysis below needs to be addressed by those arguing another poll is never-the-less justified. Before that's all addressed, I would support immediately closing any poll like this that is posted. But IF all that is addressed and consensus is established to have a new poll (that's a big IF), the wording above needs a lot of work. In particular,it needs to reflect the Wikipedia philosophy of qualifying names beyond the simple/common name only when needed for disambiguation, and for the particular qualification to depend more on what the other subjects are rather than the category each article happens to be in ( WP:D). In case it comes to that, here's a specific suggestion for the wording.
-- Serge 19:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't agree that there have been sufficient calls for a new poll - if that's really the case, I'd like to see a tally of who's for and against (especially since I was listed incorrectly as someone in favor of another poll!). If a new poll ends up happening, I think the only way to do it is to actually write up proposed wordings for the different options and simply vote on those. Otherwise, after a poll is done, people will still argue over what the wording should be. Any poll should also make it explicitly clear that disambiguating when it's not necessary has no precedent in wikipedia (ships do not predisambiguate as suggested above) and conflicts with both WP:NAME and WP:DAB. Any calls for participants at various wikiprojects should also be posted at the talk pages for both of those as well. -- Milo H Minderbinder 20:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I've been following this discussion but haven't been contributing - I just wanted to add another voice to those who believe that episode titles should be disambiguated only when necessary to avoid confusion, and that there's really no need for another poll. It seems that only two people believe that individual projects should be allowed to name articles as they seem fit; everyone else believes otherwise. It seemed like the Stargate project had the only potentially reasonable claim for an exception I've heard - the rather complicated citing template they'd developed - but that problem seems to have been worked out as well. So there's my opinion, for what it's worth. -- Brian Olsen 20:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, why do you keep plowing through with this supposedly agreed upon pole? At the very best—for your argument—there is no consensus either way. That means you leave things as they are. You can't have consensus with this much opposition. At the worst, there's consensus not to poll. Now, so far we've seen you stall, ignore the many opinions you don't agree with and even level a baseless claim of sockpuppetry. If you can't contribute without commiting all these bad faith acts, maybe you should excuse yourself from these proceedings. At the very least, you've shown that, whatever your stake in this discussion, your bias has made you unreasonable. And no, this is not an attack. I've your userspace, and I know you're good. However, as another user commented to you, your behavior here has been disappointing. While I can't say that your "side" will be represented without you, it doesn't seem like you're really helping your case anymore, either. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There is NOT enough calls for a new poll. We do NOT need a new poll. Seriously, taking this to the ArbCom? this is boarderlining trolling. We had a problem, the problem got fixed, someone who wasn't pleased with the result is now going to what...? keep stiring up discussion until things turn out in their way or until everyone else gets sick of it and leaves...leaving them to do what they want? someone tell me wikipedia does have some kind of mechanism to protect people from having to waste time on this kind of stirring-up-a-problem-when-none-exists... -- `/aksha 03:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
My goodness, now I'm being accused of "bad faith", "trolling", "being unreasonable," "disappointing," "transparent and blatantly pathetic," and "ignoring" people simply because I didn't respond within "several hours." Folks, please, relax. :) Sometimes I can get on Wikipedia every day, sometimes I can only get on once per day. And in the "once per day" time periods, it's very difficult to plow through dozens of messages (today it's 30 messages since my last post) of people calling me all kinds of names for "ignoring" them, and reply in detail to each and every post (especially when I'm not particularly inclined to respond to personal attacks in the first place).
To be clear about why I do not think that we have consensus:
Now, voices I do respect in this discussion, even if I occasionally disagree with them, are TobyRush, Josiah Rowe, and Radiant. I look forward to further communications with them, as well as with the others in this discussion who have been participating in a civil manner, towards achieving a real consensus.
Anyone who takes the time to dig through my contribution history, or who has participated in discussions with me in the past, I hope realizes that I am a fair-minded individual who can engage in civil discussion, who can compromise, and who will abide by consensus. But I have not been seeing consensus here, I have been seeing a lot of unethical tactics, I have been seeing harassment, I have been seeing personal attacks, I have seen a poll that was thoroughly shredded in order to twist it into a biased format, and I have seen highly vocal resistance to a new and fair poll, which again reinforces to me that there's something shady going on. So I repeat again: Let's encourage civil discussion, and let's do a clean poll. If, on a level playing field, the genuine consensus is to enforce strict disambiguation rules, then not only will I abide by that consensus, I'll actually help with moving the articles. But so far, I am not seeing a civil consensus, I am seeing a noisy madhouse, with a few voices trying to have a civil discussion but getting drowned out by the roar. It is my opinion that a clean poll will help to clarify people's stands, with a "one comment per voice" method. If there's a genuine consensus, a poll will show this, and I give my word that I will abide by the decision of a clean and fair poll. -- Elonka 19:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, I agree with Serge, Jay and Wiknight. Your proposal of a new poll was clearly opposed, yet you moved forth as if it had been lauded. This is just one of many actions which worry us. We're not attacking you, we're just asking that you be as reasonable with us as you'd want us to be with you. "Do onto others". Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 20:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I think the comments about ignoring other's point of view have nothing to do with taking time to reply, but posting a reply that doesn't address the other side at all. When multiple people say they have objections, followed by a response like "since there have been no objections..." that sure seems like ignoring. And what has been disruptive about moving articles so far? It seems like it has gone very smoothly and I haven't seen any objections from the various TV shows. This is a guideline, if a few people want to change it, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be followed in its current state during that discussion. -- Milo H Minderbinder 21:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If a new poll is to be made, then I insist that we ask an additional question: Who would win in a fight, Spider-Man or Wolverine? -- Ned Scott 06:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, after giving this some thought, I've changed my mind: with a few caveats, I will support a new poll, in the interests of clearing the air. I don't really think it's necessary — I think that the discussion has already established a consensus to avoid preemptive disambiguation — but I do agree that the tone of the discussion here has seriously deteriorated, and if a new poll is what it takes to calm things down I would rather have that than continued mudslinging. If other editors agree, we should try to find a clear, neutrally worded poll, and carefully follow the guidelines at Wikipedia:Straw polls.
As for those caveats, I just want us to remember that guidelines are not established by polls, but by discussion-based consensus. Elonka is correct that frequency of posting is not important — however, arguments and reason are. It would be good for editors to boil their arguments down to the key points, and state them clearly. The consensus will be based not merely on the number of votes, but on the quality of the arguments used and how widespread support for those arguments is.
I know that holding a new poll will be tedious and may feel like a waste of time, but surely this ongoing debate is a bigger waste of time. Ideally, we would discuss rather than vote, but the discussion here has deteriorated so much that a vote may actually help. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I've submitted withdrawn the following move request at
WP:RM:
-- Serge 01:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Nohat, you're right. You guys are okay.
Serge, I really disagree, but if that's the way things are, I'm not going to pull an Elonka. Izzy Dot ( talk | contribs) 02:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
To Elonka - a lot of articles have already been moved over the last few days. You can take a look at the list futher up the page if you want. I believe you will find there is no evidence what so ever that those moves have been causing any confusion or disruption to editors on those articles. In fact, regular editors on those TV series have actually been helping in some cases.
With regards to this move - no, there's no point putting it to requested moves. Just tag it for speedy deletion. A part of the criteria under "housekeeping" allows for the deletion of redirect pages so proper page moves can be made (as oppossed to the copy and paste method). The template you should use is {{db-move|Page to be moved}}. -- `/aksha 03:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The move was done through a speedy delete of the old Smothered redirect page. -- Serge 15:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The last hour I've stepped through each edit difference during the poll. I've made the following notes to show who voted during what "version" of the poll. The poll format did get changed, but I only found three different formats that contained votes.
So lets start:
Argash sets up RfC with the basic concept, pre-poll format
[57]
Izzy Dot formats a poll based on Argash's RfC summary and suggestions [58]
Note: struck out editors are those who confirmed their vote in a later format. Editors in italics confirmed their vote later on in discussion, etc under the 2nd format.
Votes (1st format)
Izzy Dot removes "opposes" in all three sections [59]
Votes (1st format, continued, no "formating" has been changed)
I changed the bullets to numbers (* -> #) for easy counting [60]
I make the first major change to the poll since it started (same day). [61] In this change the two issues become separated. What people supported previously is still "true", however some of the previous editors may need to list themselves under the new oppose section of "Disambig only when necessary". I then note this in the discussion.
Votes (2nd format)
Izzy Dot makes second poll change [62]
No votes take place in this format
I make third poll change, reverting back to 2nd format [63]
Note: I restore Matthew's oppose of "Disambig only when necessary", which was marked as an oppose before the oppose section was created. [64]
Votes (2nd format, continued)
Shannernanner makes fourth poll change, adds oppose sections to the section issue options [65].
Votes (3rd format)
I revert back to 2nd format [66]
Votes (2nd format, continued)
Elonka makes poll change, format and re-definition of sections similar to the 1st version
[67]
[68]
No votes take place with this format
Note: Jay32183 did strike a comment because of the change, but un-struck it after it was reverted)
I revert back to 2nd format [69]
Votes (2nd format, continued)
Now lets update those lists excluding anyone who later made their vote clear.
1st format
2nd format
3rd format
So..
These editors have not updated or "confirmed" their vote:
Now lets see who voted support for "disambig only when necessary" (Regardless of format, we know they supported this. We only don't know what they supported for Disambig title):
The only editors who didn't vote under the 2nd format and didn't note support for "disambig only when necessary" were:
This much we know is true from the poll. -- Ned Scott 05:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
At this point, i completely fail to see what the problem is.
We agree to keep the guildline as it is.
Guildlines, by definition (and common sense), are followed by default.
A lot of article moving has already happened, with no evidence of any disruption or damage caused.
We have agreed to leave the format of disambiguation as is. There is still debate about this, however people have expressed that they don't feel it's a very important issue.
There is still debate about what to do with wikiprojects that decide to disambiguate.
In other words, we're arguing about a "what if" problem. Why don't we leave debating about this problem when there actually exists a wikiproject who does have project-wide consensus to disambiguate?
So unless someone would like to enlighten me on exactly what our problem is, can we just focus on...actually getting things done? As in get articles moved and deal with problems when they actually show up. -- `/aksha 06:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I just started to fix the Frasier episode names - adding redirects or fixing disambigs as needed - and found The Good Son as a good example of why I suggested "(episode)" as a disambiguator rather than the show name. Not trying to change the standard now - just pointing out an example. -- Chuq 08:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I look through categories regularly at WP but am still learning many things about editing properly. In this specific case, I am looking through tv-related categories and I see many more articles without "(TV series)" than with. Does this mean we should move every appropriate article to a new name containing "TV series" or other appropriate title suffix or only do so under specific circumstances? -- CobraWiki ( jabber| stuff) 22:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
No offence taken, Chuq. Thanks all for the explanations. Looking at it from a "simple is better" point does make perfect sense. -- CobraWiki ( jabber| stuff) 08:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix, about the best way to consistently title Lost episodes (such as to use a suffix of "(Lost)" or "(Lost episode)"). Interested editors are invited to participate, to ensure consensus. -- Elonka 23:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused over episode naming. I have seen both Episode-name (Show-name) and Episode-name (Show-name episode) used. General naming convention is to describe WHAT the item is, not where it is from - for example, (actor) and (politician) would be preferred for diambiguating two names, and if there were more than one politician, then (Australian politician) and (Canadian politician) would be preferred. using (Australia) and (Canada) would be wrong using this method.
I would have expected television episodes naming conventions to be a subset of the general naming conventions - and as such use (Lost episode) and (Jericho episode) for example. I have seen a few articles using just (Lost) which is wrong - the word "Lost" by itself doesn't do anything to tell you what the article is about, unless you already know that it is an episode of the show. Looking deeper I have found that this is the recommended naming convention for WikiProject Television episodes!
Trying to find past discussion about this is tricky, I've found info scattered over WP:Naming conventions, WP:Naming conventions (television), WP:Disambiguation, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television, Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes, and the associated talk pages. I'm not sure where I should bring it up, but the episode naming convention should be "(Show name episode)" - it is after all a part of Wikipedia and where possible different projects should not have different naming schemes.
Note: Whether or not episode article names should be pre-emptively disambiguated is another topic altogether! -- Chuq 02:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Requesting comments for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix - a debate over the use of disambiguation titles for episode articles of a TV show when no disambiguation is needed. -- Ned Scott 21:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Since it's being discussed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines I thought it would be good to note this here as well. Here is the reason the Star Trek "exception example" was removed from the guidelines:
To use a disambig title when it is not necessary, for style or consistency reasons seem to be against general naming conventions. For example, one should title the Lost episode "Fire + Water" as Fire + Water instead of Fire + Water (Lost), where "Fire + Water" doesn't exist as another article. Here are some discussions that seem to support this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines#Name suffix, Talk:Fire + Water#Requested move, Talk:List of Torchwood episodes#Article names. One exception was given for this without explanation, Star Trek episodes.
I've been trying to find out how the Star Trek example got in the guideline in the first place, and here's the first edit I've seen it in. The talk page at that time did not have any mentioning of Star Trek, nor did the poll that was taken a few days before. I found two places in the talk archive where Star Trek is mentioned:
Had there been at least something that lead to this addition I would have likely discussed first before removing, but there was not. There is no major support for this, and it's very misleading. The inclusion of the Star Trek example is what mislead me to my own assumption that this was acceptable. If we have an exception in a guideline then the exception needs some explanation, some context. The Star Trek example has none, and its removal was appropriate. -- Ned Scott 00:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Certain shows such as Star Trek and Lost may use different formats. When in doubt, it is best to make new episode articles consistent with the practice that is already in existence for that program.
I am starting this as there is already four discussions on this page regaurding this issue, also It has come up on Talk:Heroes (TV series) and Talk:Jericho (TV series) and though I'm not involved I understand from this page that the debate is also raging (poetic license) on Talk:Lost (TV series). I am going to try to detail the options as I see it and then give my recomendation.
Summary of the issue
Currently there is a bit of confusion since WP:D says that the first article with a given name should be just that name. However in specific to episodic television episode articles, WP:TV-NC says to reference the guidlines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Television episodes. Since the project guidlines aren't specific every one seems to be pushing for their own preffered version of NC. This RfC seeks to define a single NC for Television Episode articles.
-- Argash | talk | contribs | 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I created {{User:Argash/TVEpNCRfC}} for placement on appropriate talk pages. Feel free to put on talk pages where you deem appropriate to direct people to this discussion.
Sign to indicate which options you agree with.
A "support" vote means the disambiguation policy for television episode articles should be the same as the general policy: a title only should contain a parenthetical disambiguation if the title is ambiguous, and there are other articles with the same title.
An "oppose" vote means the disambiguation policy for television episode articles should be an exception as the general policy: a television episode's article title should always include the name of the series it is in, regardless of whether or not the episode title is ambiguous.
This section of the poll is regarding what form parenthetical disambiguations for television episodes should take. This is for all parenthetical disambiguations for television episodes, regardless of whether all episodes have parenthetical disambiguations, or only those which are ambiguous.
I guess now that I have summed up the issue I will note that the option that I prefer is the second as it's unifying, descriptive and not overly wordy.
Obviously this is not an exhaustive list of pros v cons but it should be enough to get an idea and debate the issue. I will be posting this to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Policies and hopefully we can come to a concensus and make a unifying standard.
-- Argash | talk | contribs | 14:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
This RfC is a bit confusing. For one, the discussion over the Lost episodes is happening on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines and not the other Lost talk page. Also, on the Lost discussion we're mostly talking about the use of disambig titles ("Showtitle (Lost whatever)") when no disambig title is needed. However, the 3 "vote" options presented don't allow for someone to say if they prefer "(Show Name episode)" or "(Show Name)" without needless disambiguation. Can we change the wording on this and the options before people get too far into this so there's less confusion? Also, it'd be nice if we could transclude some of the comments from that Lost talk page to here, as I'd hate to bug everyone again for a second comment. -- Ned Scott 20:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It's not real useful to have the same subject being discussed at multiple places. There's no way this "vote" can be considered binding unless people in the other discussions are notified as well. I only stumbled on this by looking at other people's contributions. That notwithstanding, can someone please explain this supposed watchlist benefit to number 2 above? Are there people that are watching pages but don't want to fix vandalism in them because they're not related to Lost?! Please tell me that's not the case. If an article is in your watchlist, you should look for vandalism in edits to that article, regardless of the article's subject - and certainly regardless of that article's naming convention! — Wknight94 ( talk) 22:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Preemptive disambiguation has always been and continues to be a bad idea. Article titles should consist only of the titles of articles. In some cases, this policy doesn't work because some things have the same title. In those cases, as a last resort, we disambiguate the title using a parenthetical disambiguation. Parenthetical disambiguations are bad thing, to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. We should not be implementing policies that change article titles to generic information containers that contain titles and any other random grab-bag of information, like the name of the series it is a part of, or whatever. It's a muddy semantic mess that would only cause worse semantic muddying elsewhere on Wikipedia. Once we put "(Star Trek episode)" (or whatever) in the title of every Star Trek episode, why not put "(Star Trek character)" after every character or "(2005 novel)" after every novel written last year or "(person who graduated college)" in the title of every article about college graduates, and so on? Star Trek episodes are not special and there is no compelling reason why they should have special exemption to the general policy of only disambiguating when disambiguation is necessary. While it may provide a small benefit in remembering link names for those users who exclusively edit articles relating to Star Trek, for the rest of us, who are just as likely to link to a Star Trek episode as any other article, having a policy of preemptive disambiguation for Star Trek articles is just another dumb exception that has to be memorized and makes Wikipedia less consistent overall. Nohat 23:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Can you guys not pick two options? Seriously, it sets a bad example and it just attempt to have it "one way or the other". Should the two propositions just be merged? Izzy Dot ( talk | contribs) 00:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Nohat, I am assuming good faith regarding your additions to the pros and cons above, but many of them seem (to me, anyway) to be somewhat redundant and some are a little flippant. I invite you to consolidate your arguments a little to more accurately represent the different sides of this issue. Thank you! -- TobyRush 00:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, I think there are two arguments here that should be discussed separately:
The two questions are completely orthogonal, and the current format of the poll conflates them. Nohat 00:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I've updated the poll format a bit so people can state a preference for disabig titles and indicate support or oppose for disabig only when necessary. Those who wish to oppose the latter will need to re-sign under the new section. Sorry for the late change, but I did sort of suggest this early on (and then had to go to work). --
Ned Scott
02:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this discussion could benefit from the KISS principle. Adding disambiguation when unnecessary just complicates things. If "Title" is redirecting to "Title (disambiguation)" the page always gets moved. Any argument that a particular type of article is an exception puts too much emphasis on trivia, which we also like to avoid. Jay32183 03:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the stupid votes for multiple policies and "opposition". Let's be clear: you cannot vote for two things, period. One or the other. By voting for one thing, you're voting against the other. Pick an option and stick with it. Double votes for dabbing and no dabing have been removed. If the voters really care, they can re-add ONE vote to ONE choice and no more. Honestly.... Izzy Dot ( talk | contribs) 07:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick question for those who are supporting sticking with the current policy. Are you voting that way simply because it's the current policy? Not to be rude I just haven't seen anyone give a good and valid reason as to why they prefer that. Mostly what I've seen from your group is "Thats the policy why change it?" I'm really curious to know. -- Argash | talk | contribs | Status:On 09:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Nohat and Wknight94 have explained the "keep it as is" position fairly well, but just for the record I'll add my reasons. I do support the existing policy, because it's a good policy. An article should have the shortest name that identifies its subject clearly, and without ambiguity. As TobyRush points out, parenthetical suffixes on Wikipedia exist to resolve ambiguity between titles, not to provide context for an article's subject. The article does that, ideally in its first line.
I don't think that it's "wrong" to be consistent — I just don't think that context-providing consistency is a value that needs to be taken into account in article naming. I do feel that the example of Agatha Christie novels is relevant — only the devotees of a particular author will recognize the titles of all of her works. Many of them are works in a series, not unlike the episodes of a television series. It's exactly parallel to the television example: if we must label The Unquiet Dead as The Unquiet Dead (Doctor Who episode), then by the same reasoning we should label Five Little Pigs as Five Little Pigs (Hercule Poirot novel). I really don't see the difference. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 19:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I also support the existing policy, not because it's the one that exists, but because it is a good, well thought out, policy. I mentioned the KISS principle above as to why the existing policy is good. Not using disambiguation is always the simplest thing to do, it just isn't always possible because of ambiguity. When ambiguity complicates things anyway, using a longer title is actually useful, but the longer title should still be the simplest one possible. The first time I read the policy I thought, "Well, that makes sense." which is why I used it when naming articles from Xiaolin Showdown. Those articles may not be very good yet, but they all have the simplest name they can, and I've had no trouble keeping track of them in my watchlist even when they don't say (Xiaolin Showdown) after them. Jay32183 19:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Should one of the disambiguation examples be adopted, there is also the problem of series which are named identically but came out at different times. I can think of only one series this applies to, and that is Battlestar Galactica. Currently, for example, we have Take the Celestra (Battlestar Galactica) and Act of Contrition (Battlestar Galactica), both using the pre-emptive disambiguation naming convention, except that the former is from the original 1978 series and the latter from the 2004 remake. Only The Hand of God (Battlestar Galactica) is disambiguated any further because that episode title occurs in both versions. My own personal suggestion, beyond eliminating pre-emptive disambiguation, is for the above examples to become, respectively, Take the Celestra (Battlestar Galactica 1978) and Act of Contrition (Battlestar Galactica 2004). Note that I am not a big fan of making double parenthethis in article names, which is why I did not put them around the years, but if this is an issue, perhaps a hyphen instead? -- BlueSquadronRaven 23:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I see the majory argument for using disambiguation is consistency. On the same principal, having all TV series using the same title format (either disambiguation or no disambiguation) is also very important in terms of consistency. Which means doing massive numbers of moves one way or the other. May as well be no disambiguation because it seems like most TV series do not have the disambiguation.
Also, can someone change the poll questions around? The way they're formatting now is confusing. The "opposse" sections are not needed. A vote for support in one of the three options shows opposse to the other two. Right now, there're people voting support for more than one option. And some people voting oppose on the two options they don't support, and some people not.
Have either just three options and people show support for one of the three. Or have two questions, the first addressing whether we need disambiguation. And the second for what type of disambiguation to use (for people who are pro-disambiguation). -- `/aksha 05:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure who changed/refactored the poll questions, but I now find that I have my name under an item that I do not wish to vote for. "disambiguate only when necesary, and then disambiguate with (SeriesName episode)" is NOT the same as "disambiguate all with (SeriesName episode)". Of course there have been so many edits and changes to the page since then, I don't want to attempt to change them back and risk doing the same thing to someone else. All I can suggest is everyone CHECK their votes! -- Chuq 02:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused now. Have you changed the poll to where if (like me) you favor preemptive dabing I have to oppose the first option and support the second option(which ever one I prefer)? If thats the case I think we need to start the voting over and re-inform people, as I'm sure there are lots of people who came in here, made their choice and left nary to return again. Essentially scewing the vote. To be honest I think the poll was started prematurely anyway before the options were fully discussed. -- Argash | talk | contribs 16:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
In response to Elonka's last comment in this section: You're right, it's a poll, not a vote. With that in mind, we are just collecting information from this poll. With the current format, changed as it is, we can still say there is reasonable credibility for the data collected. We won't be ending this poll right away, and that will give all editors enough time to re-list an oppose "motion" under the oppose section for "disambig only when necessary". Since it's not a vote, and we're just collecting information, I don't really see the need to restart the poll (but still let it be open for at least a few more days, if not a week or so).
Second, the claim that the disambig titles were apart of the Lost episode mediation has been really bugging me. It's completely false. Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes, Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes, and then the message that the mediator posted about the outcome to the top of Talk:List of Lost episodes here.
Third, yes, guidelines should be treated with common sense, and exceptions should be made where reasonable. We all agree on that. However, what many of us are saying is that you are not presenting a reasonable exception, or even one that could be considered common sense. Flexibility can be a good thing, but without a good reason it becomes a problem. -- Ned Scott 03:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I am actually amazed by how many people involved in this discussion, who think they know disambiguation rules backwards and forwards, are completely oblivious to how wrongheaded the idea of "voting" is on Wikipedia. This is not a vote. This is a discussion. This is not a "majority rules" situation. This is not a case of trying to find a "winner" or a "loser". The poll serves only to get a rough idea of where people stand on a complex issue. What it is showing me, is that we do not have a clear consensus, and that we need to keep talking about this, in good faith. I encourage everyone to eliminate the words "vote", "policy", "winning" and "losing" from their vocabulary, as these words are not helpful. Please instead very carefully read Wikipedia:Consensus, Wikipedia:Guideline (where it specifically talks about how "voting" on guidelines is a common error), and WP:VIE. -- Elonka 20:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it all seems pretty okay to me. I've made comments to those whose votes may been misinterpreted in hopes that they'll return to correct any perceived mistake. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Please forgive me but I have not read the 66 KB discussion thus far. I would suggest that disambiguation be done as necessary but "Title (series episode)" be created as a redirect regardless. My reason is simple: when writing episode lists or cross-linking episodes you can guarantee that you have not made an ambiguous link which can be absurdly prevalent when episodes have common names like Genesis (of which there are no less than 5 episodes named this). It is nigh impossible to auto-disambiguate a link and it is a much better visitor experience to skip through a redirect (which requires no extra work by the visitor) than to be faced with a dab page, or worse, the wrong article completely. Always having "Title (series episode)" whether it is the actual article or a redirect is the best choice from the perspective of a reader.
So, as long as "Title (series episode)" gets me to the correct article...I don't care what is decided above. Cburnett 00:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Comment Always making the redirect would solve one of the problems claimed by the people wanting to deviate from the existing policy, and redirects are cheap. Even though I think pre-emptive dabbing is bad, making a redirect for any reasonable search term is good. Within articles readers will never see the dabbing because the links will be piped, so the consistant look will be there on tables and nav boxes. The reasoning behind minimizing the dabbing is to keep Wikipedia elegant and simple. Seeing no dab link to a dab just seems weird, but dab redirecting to no dab is definitely done, because recoding the pages that link to a redirect requires more server space than letting a redirect sit there. Jay32183 04:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, it sounds like we're all reaching a group hug point here so let's let this particular thread die before it gets nastier. Let's leave all of the articles and redirects the way they are for now in the hopes this whole discussion comes to some conclusion (if such a thing is possible). It's beneficial to have them all locked at the moment - and I'd unlock them if I thought otherwise. In cases like this, two or three people always feel the urge to declare the discussion concluded and all of a sudden a wild move war breaks out. Ordinarily, I'd come down on intentionally blocking page moves - and I will be happy to unblock them myself when this discussion is concluded - but, in this case, it turns out to be helpful. — Wknight94 ( talk) 12:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Uh...iIf I may inject here, creating a redirect doesn't pervent a move to that title. For example, the article " Koragg the Knight Wolf can still be moved to the title Leanbow or the title Koragg. In the case of the former option, Leanbow was created as a redirect and only has the edit of creation in its history. Wikimedia setup allows for this to be easily overwritten in a move. Similarly, Koragg, the latter option, has only the edit of a move from that title to Koragg the Knight Wolf. In both cases, the end result is that an article can still move into a title held by a redirect with only one edit in its history. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but I have to ask about this comment saying disambiguating all of the titles "shows that they are part of a seires (sic)". The only place the disambiguated names would all be seen at once is in the category — but, by definition, just being in the category shows they are in a series! Folks in opposition to question 1 above apparently want to use disambiguation to do categorization. — Wknight94 ( talk) 03:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, who wants to decide whether this discussion is concluded? We've had two reverts at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) today so folks are apparently getting antsy. The noise has died down a bit here too. I'm not going to be the one to do anything drastic (and I never intended to, Elonka) but this is a little nudge. :) — Wknight94 ( talk) 17:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The solution must:
- Allow readers to easily find the article in question
- Allow other readers to easily find other articles with the same name
It would be preferrable to have a solution which:
- Does not create an exception to WP:D
- Allows linked lists of episodes to be formatted alike
- Provides a predictable format for editors to use when creating links
- Establishes a consistent naming convention which can be used by all TV shows
It would be nice to have a solution which:
- Provides series context within the article name
- Causes episode articles to be named consistently in watchlists and category lists
Although there is still vocal dissent from a few editors, I think that there is a broad consensus for Cburnett's suggestion. I think we're ready to put it on the page. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
If it would help us to reach a more complete consensus, we could add a sentence like TobyRush suggested above. Another alternative could be:
How's that, Elonka? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Am i the only one who sees a major contradiction in how it is the same people who want the suffix because it is creates consistency advocating for certain TV series to be exceptions, which reduces consistency over all the TV series? What's the point of doing something that's mostly redundant just to make one tiny group of articles more consistent, but wikipedia in general less?
And since when did small individual wikiprojects have power to make decisions that override wikipedia-wide guildlines? Especially when wikiprojects can be so small that it's basically one or two people making decisions, and then claiming "the project reached a consensus". -- `/aksha 01:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I hope that everyone at least can agree that worrying about an episode article name should be the last thing we think about. It is first important to determine if individual articles are even the best way to go. A "natural" progress for inclusion of episode information should be:
Too many bad situations are caused by people jumping right to #5. -- Netoholic @ 19:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't suppose there's a place to propose merges that can result in binding decisions (like the way AfD produces a final binding decision on whether to delete or not)? -- `/aksha 01:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Since the old poll got so tangled, I recommend we close it, and discuss our next step, such as working on a potential new paragraph for the Guideline, by finding wording that everyone agrees with. If we have obvious consensus, it can go into the guideline. If we don't have consensus, then we work on changing the wording until we do. For example, in other guidelines where there was controversy, the way I've seen it handled, is that in that particular section of the guideline, it simply says, "Controversy exists about whether or not action A or action B is better."
I especially liked TobyRush's summary up above, which did a good job of reflecting the opinions here, so I started with that and put it into more of a paragraph form. Here's my suggestion, but feel free to suggest different wording:
There is some controversy about the exact way to title episode articles, but the general consensus is that in most cases, articles about individual episodes should use the title of the episode itself, unless that title is already in use, in which case the episode article should include (<seriesname> episode) as a disambiguating suffix.
In some cases, certain series may use slightly different systems, such as to use a disambiguating suffix of simply (<seriesname>) or even to include a consistent suffix on all episodes of a particular series, regardless of whether or not they are strictly required by disambiguation rules. Advantages to this system are that linked lists of episodes use a consistent titling scheme, and it becomes easier to link between episodes if many of them (or even the majority) already had suffixes. Other advantages are that it is convenient to include series context with an article's title, categories look more consistent, and specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists. Disadvantages are that there may be some confusion if a suffix which normally implies disambiguation, is used on an article that did not need disambiguating; and the additional unneeded suffix results in a longer article title than necessary. So, these "exception" types of methods remain controversial, and are generally discouraged (see the talk page for more information).
How's that? Does this address everyone's concerns? -- Elonka 23:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The first paragraph looks fine. The rest just seems to be an excuse to let people who don't prefer the chosen method to make exceptions, which makes the whole thing a waste of time. In some cases, certain series.. no no no! There is absolutely NO logical reason why one series should use a different format to another series, and why any TV series should use a different format to Wikipedia in general. The only reasons seem to be "it is already like that" and "the WikiProject <TV series> editors like it that way". The advantages and disadvantages listed are not specific to any one show; and as such, different shows shouldn't stray from them. it becomes easier to link between episodes .. no, not if you edit articles about different shows and every show has a different format. specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists - this is what "shared watchlists" (such as this) are for. -- Chuq 00:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Articles about individual episodes should use the title of the episode itself, unless that title is already in use, in which case the episode article should include (<seriesname> episode) as a disambiguating suffix.
I think the poll that took place the last week or so is essentially saying that the guideline is fine the way it is. Frankly, I'm not sure what the purpose of this new section is. Enough with the false compromises and red herrings. We're all repeating ourselves yet again. — Wknight94 ( talk) 05:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Guideline: "People are sometimes tempted to call a vote on a guideline, but this is a bad idea because it polarizes the issue (see Voting is evil for details). Instead, a guideline is made by listening to objections and resolving them." As regards this naming conventions guideline, it is clear that there are objections, so the guideline should reflect that there is controversy. A few people repeatedly saying that there isn't controversy, and making personal attacks or otherwise harassing anyone raising good faith objections, is not "listening to objections and resolving them." I have offered a compromise wording, which is to state a primary method of titling episodes, while admitting that exceptions (and controversy) exist. I think that's pretty fair. If someone wants to suggest different wording though, I'm listening. -- Elonka 20:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Every article in Wikipedia, including every article about a TV episode, should be named in accordance with Wikipedia policy and guidelines, including WP:NC, WP:NC(CN), WP:D, etc. More specific naming guidelines should only apply in those cases where a known ambiguity issue exists. That is, if the name of the episode is not used in Wikipedia for any other article, that should be the name of the article about that episode, period. If there is an ambiguity issue, then it's appropriate to look for guidelines here and/or at an appropriate Wikiproject, but, even then, those are only guidelines. In the end, each article should be treated independently. Trying to impose a naming convention that inherently violates fundamental general Wikipedia naming conventions only creates conflict, and understandably so. — Serge 16:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
There is a TV episode article entitled Hole in One. There is a requested move survey to move it to Hole in One (TV episode) at Talk:Hole in One. -- Serge 22:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that we have a tentative consensus about the general guideline, and there are now two items upon which there is still some disagreement:
Regarding the first item: Since WP:D states that "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception," we should recognize that there may be a situation where an exception to this guideline is appropriate. Rather than use Lost or Star Trek, for which there is guideline-related disagreement, allow me to suggest a hypothetical television show, Wikipedians. This show, described by its fans as "a show about userboxes," has an very interesting distinction: its episodes are named in such a way that the episode article titles require pre-emptive disambiguation. In fact, naming an episode article without a disambiguating phrase would cause the internet to collapse. So it exists as a common-sense exception to the guidelines here at TV:NC.
(Now, before you argue that there is no such show, remember that WP:D notes that guidelines can have exceptions, and so this serves as the hypothetical common-sense exception that may someday be found, and that we should accept and be prepared for.)
So, assuming the existence of this hypothetical series, do we make any mention of exceptions here, on the guideline page? If we do not, we are trusting that future editors will know about WP:D's allowance of common-sense exceptions. If we do mention the exceptions on the guideline page, we risk encouraging editors to find reasons to make needless exceptions to the guideline. Elonka's argument, as I understand it, is that we should make this decision based on the possibility of series that have justifiable reasons to exempt themselves from the guideline. I think that's a extremely valid argument that is in keeping with Wikipedia:Guideline. (Elonka, I hope I'm not misrepresenting you here!) That said, I am leaning toward not including the exception verbiage here, but I can certainly see the merit of doing it both ways.
Lost and Star Trek are both great shows (well, I actually haven't seen Lost yet, so keep the spoilers away, please), but they're not helping us achieve consensus here. It seems to me that we should work toward consensus on a general guideline, and then take that guideline to individual shows and debate there whether or not the shows qualify as common sense exceptions. It's hard to focus on the merits of a general guideline when controversial exceptions keep getting thrown in, and I think it will help those individual discussions if we can create a general guideline and achieve broad consensus on it.
Regarding the second item: One of the reasons we chose against pre-emptive disambiguation was that the title of the article need not establish context (that's the job of the first line of the article itself). Therefore, the disambiguating phrase need only serve to identify the article among the other articles on the disambiguation page. If someone is looking for the article about Futurama article "The Sting," they will quickly determine that The Sting (Futurama) is what they're looking for, and not The Sting (1973 film). However, as Josiah pointed out above, Dalek (Doctor Who) would need to be expanded to Dalek (Doctor Who episode) to distinguish it from Dalek (Doctor Who race). -- Toby Rush ‹ ✆| ✍ › 23:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it easier to find a page with "episode" in its title, based on wikipedia's search? Is putting the word "episode" in the first sentence equivalent? What if you search for " csi episode"? Do we care about how the search results may change? - Peregrinefisher 07:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as though this discussion is petering out and certainly has gone nowhere as far as explaining a Lost-specific exception to the guideline, I don't personally see a problem with bringing the Lost episode articles at question to WP:RM now. Any strong objections? — Wknight94 ( talk) 17:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Let's try to see if the reasons that have been given as justifications for WikiProject exceptions hold water. For the sake of presenting the arguments fairly, I will use Elonka's words, not my own. I see three classes of argument:
Assuming these three classes are the primary reasons given, let's examine them one at a time.
From my point of view, the objections to these reasons are all much stronger than the reasons themselves. I would greatly appreciate any responses to these arguments, and any further reasons that I have missed. Thank you. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 19:43, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
My response:
Josiah: Just because you disagree with someone else's point of view, does not mean that it's a good idea to refer to their opinions as "not holding water," or "unreasoned." I think it would be better to try and get away from this polarizing view of "There's only one right way to do things, and anyone who disagrees is 'wrong.'" My own view on the matter is that there are *multiple* right ways to do things. To try and break down my reasoning by your categories though:
And I'm adding another category:
In summary, I believe that there are multiple "correct" ways to handle television episode articles, and that the guidelines here should not be looked at as a way to enforce one and only one system, but as a recommendation for a primary method, while allowing that occasional exceptions are not necessarily a problem. -- Elonka 21:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, thank you for responding. I'd like to point out that at no point did I claim that your arguments were "unreasoned" — that word is yours, not mine.
I disagree with your suggestion that the prevalence of preemptive disambiguation for television episode page titles is indicative that this preemptive disambiguation is "intuitive". I would suggest instead that it is merely imitative. Due to Wikipedia's systemic bias, the Star Trek series were among the first television series to have WIkipedia pages for all episodes. Thus, the example of the Star Trek pages was readily available, and was widely imitated by fans of other television series. This doesn't mean that the preemptive disambiguation is less confusing than disambiguating only when necessary, only that it appeared to be "the way Wikipedia does things". However, outside of the realm of television, it is not the way that Wikipedia has done things, and it's time that this misconception was corrected.
I also disagree with your statement that "the only reason that has been given to change this method, is that it's "against the guidelines." " The supporters of the current guideline have given many reasons why preemptive disambiguation is a bad idea. It is true that we frequently refer to existing guidelines such as WP:D, but that is because those guidelines are well supported both by reason and by unambiguous Wikipedia-wide consensus.
As for the sentence you quoted from WP:NC, I think that Cburnett's wise suggestion of redirects addresses those concerns adequately.
I believe that you are incorrect in saying that context-providing is regularly done with people's names — this is only done when there are more than one person with the same name. And that's the point — when there's only one subject with a given title, that subject should be at that title without disambiguation. Jawaharlal Nehru is not disambiguated to Jawaharlal Nehru (Indian Prime Minister), nor should it be. Instead, Jawaharlal Nehru is placed in the category Category:Prime Ministers of India. Similarly, Whatever the Case May Be is in Category:Lost episodes — there's no need for it to be at Whatever the Case May Be (Lost).
As for the example of ships, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships) explains the reasons why naval ships are labelled with their hull numbers: specifically, because "It is extremely common for many ships to share a name. Therefore disambiguation needs special attention." I believe that the example of USS Virginia (ten ships by that name) is more common than USS Eichenberger (one ship) — and note that USS Eichenberger is a redirect to USS Eichenberger (DE-202).
As for the issue of WikiProject consensus, I see no evidence that the editors of this page are riding roughshod over previously established WikiProject consensuses. Indeed, great lengths have been taken to include the members of WikiProjects who have been preemptively disambiguating. The Star Trek WikiProject in particular has been invited to join the conversation on several occasions. No one is saying that the decisions of a WikiProject are overridden by the views of non-project members. All that is being said is that if a WikiProject makes a decision that appears to be in contradiction to a general Wikipedia guideline or policy, that decision should be explained and justified to the larger community. Ideally, such an explanation would lead to a general conversation about the guidelines and their applicability to the case at hand. If the WikiProject's reasons for exceptions are clear and valid, they will be understood by people from outside the specialist subject, and accepted. That has not happened in this case.
Elonka, I think that you're right that guidelines are meant to be recommendations rather than absolute rules with no exceptions. Where we differ is the question of whether to explicitly list examples of those exceptions in the guideline. What I and others have been trying to say is that if you explicitly list exceptions to the guideline, the guideline becomes almost meaningless, because editors will say, "There are exceptions at x and y, so I'll make another exception at z. Now, there may indeed be legitimate reasons why editors at Star Trek in particular have chosen to preemptively disambiguate. However, those reasons have not been stated on this page. And I think it is a very bad idea to enshrine an exception into a guideline without having a clear idea of the reasoning behind it. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 22:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"the fact remains, that there is a natural tendency for new episode articles to be created with a suffix" No, there's no such tendency. this template is added to all "list of episode" articles. A "what links here" for it shows it's been transcluded into about 600 pages, almost all of which are episode list articles.
After combing through the list, i managed to find a total of only 57 TV series that create articles with a suffix by default (list is here).
So quite frankly, you are wrong. There is no such tendency. The vast majority of TV series don't disambiguate unnessasarily. -- `/aksha 04:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Brilliant summary up there Josiah Rowe.
It seems like the bottom line is that we're argueing about whether or not to use unneeded disambiguation when there're absolutely no valid reasons for doing so. What a waste of time. The current guildlines are fine as it is, just because two people disagreeing doesn't mean we need to scratch/change it.
The question remaining now is whether to allow exceptions to the guildlines. I can't really see a problem here either. Everyone agrees that guildlines are just guildlines and common sense exceptions are always allowed when there are valid reasons for it. And the exceptions we're talking about here...don't seem to have any valid reasons, as pointed out above.
Can we sort of...try and get things wrapped up here?
Unless of course, anyone here has anything new to say. -- `/aksha 11:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Star Trek and Lost have been mentioned as examples of shows that haven't followed the policy on naming, but there seem to be more than that (just looking a bit, more seem to violate the policy than follow it). Has anyone checked to see how many shows aren't following the policy (and could potentially face article renaming)? Do people intend to move every article they find that doesn't follow the policy? -- Milo H Minderbinder 16:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
To clear up some confusions about what people think I said, I am not advocating that all television episode articles should use a suffix, I am stating that some series, in my opinion, should be allowed to exhibit an exception to standard disambiguation guidelines. Further, I think that it makes sense for those editors who are most familiar with a particular subset of subject matter, to make that determination. For example, let's look at the Star Trek articles in Category:Star Trek episodes. In fact, let's get even more specific and look at Category:Star Trek: The Original Series episodes, where all of the episodes currently have a consistent suffix, "(TOS episode)". I realize that a couple of editors here at WP:NC-TV (specifically Wknight94 and Ned Scott) regard the Star Trek format as "evil", and they're itching to go in there and move articles to what they regard as "the right" titles. But, it's not that simple,' and further, I think that adamantly trying to enforce WP:NC-TV as a "policy", runs the danger of being actively disruptive. Here's my reasoning: The articles in that Star Trek category have been stable for quite some time. But what exactly is it that Wknight94 and Ned Scott want to do? To move every single episode that doesn't need disambiguation to just the episode title? Then, what about those with "(TOS episode)". Are we moving all of those as well, to "(Star Trek episode)", since that was the original name of the series? Or are we going to saddle each one of those episodes with the absurdly long suffix of "(Star Trek: The Original Series episode)"? I strongly believe that this is not a determination that we should be making here from WP:NC-TV -- this is a determination that the Star Trek editors who deal with these articles on a daily basis should be making, and have made, and we should trust that they acted in good faith. Also, though I'm doing some crystal ball work here, I'm willing to bet that even if we had consensus here at WP:NC-TV, and then were to suddenly descend on the Star Trek articles like birds of prey (pardon the pun) and move things around, that there would be other Star Trek editors who hadn't heard of this discussion, who would suddenly perk up and yell, "Hey! What the hell??." So there would be a good chance that categories which have been relatively peaceful for months, would suddenly turn into a battleground. Is this really what we want?
In other words, It ain't broke, so why does it need fixing? Let's please trust that editors who are familiar with the subject matter, who are familiar with the various ways of distinguishing the different series, have been doing their best, in good faith, to come up with a reasonable and professional way of handling those many episodes. We shouldn't be trying to micro-manage every TV series from here, we should just be coming up with a general guideline, and then allowing for exceptions. -- Elonka 23:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Why must Star Trek (or any other show) have an exception to the policies and guidelines? If those episode pages were to get moved to names consistent with the rest of wikipedia, how exactly would that make those pages any worse? And what does "familiarity with the subject" have to do with naming? What could possibly be so unique to Star Trek that it requires a different naming convention than every other article on wikipedia? It sounds like you just want to make your own rules instead of following the WP rules. -- Milo H Minderbinder 00:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any point in waiting. Elonka had already posted a notice on the talk pages of all the star trek episode main articles (that is, the "list of" articles) ( here, here, here, here and here) 10 days ago. notices were also posted onto the disambiguation guildline talk page and the NC main guildline talk page asking for people to join in. It's long enough warning for people to join us.
Elonka, your entire argument breaks down when we see exactly how the disambiguation standard in the star trek articles came about. Here're the previous discussions by the star trek project on naming conventions:
I suggest everyone take a look, they're not all that long.
Now is this enough for everyone?-- `/aksha 04:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Greetings, Star Trek editors!
There has been an extended discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) for several weeks concerning the naming of television episode articles on Wikipedia. A consensus has been reached that article titles should only include disambiguating phrases when there is another article on Wikipedia with the same name as the episode name. Thus, Circus Knights would not need any disambiguation, where Nobody Does It Better (Knight Rider) would, in order to differentiate it from Nobody Does It Better (song).
This has actually been a very long-thought-out discussion, and has had input from many editors from many different shows and WikiProjects, including Star Trek. However, because the Star Trek episodes are so plentiful, and have used a differing system for some time now, the editors contributing to TV:NC felt it appropriate to mention it here before people started moving episode articles to new names. Rest assured that these changes are not being made flippantly, but only after a long discussion about how to best comply with Wikipedia's general article naming scheme.
Thank you for your help!
I changed this:
to this:
because otherwise episodes named after characters who don't necessarily deserve their own pages (such as The Outrageous Okona or Inca Mummy Girl) might get disambiguated. Recording my reasoning here in case anyone disagrees. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 06:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The "might reasonably have" language is open to too much interpretation, unnecessarily, I think. I suggest (but did not change):
Requiring a page move in the rare instances where a page is created with a conflicting character or object name is no big deal. We require the same for any undisambiguated episode title should another page with the same name in Wikipedia be created. -- Serge 06:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Milo Minderbinder made a good point above, that there are lots more television series not in compliance with this guideline than just the Star Trek series. Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, for instance, seem to follow the Star Trek model — I only just noticed this when Inca Mummy Girl came up as a redlink above. While we're dropping polite notes, we should probably drop one at the Buffyverse WikiProject too. Does anyone know what other series are preemptively disambiguating, and whether they have WikiProjects? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 07:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Tons, actually...
stargate -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate (Project informed on 10/11)
lost -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Lost just waiting for speedy deletion requests to come through, otherwise done
star trek -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Star Trek
buffy and angel -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Buffyverse (Project informed on 10/11)
4400 -
Wikipedia:WikiProject The 4400
some mortal combat series -
Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat (done)
episodes for these TV series are also in the Star Trek format:
Big Love (done)
Desperate Housewives (done)
Charmed(done)
Firefly (TV series)(false alarm)
Six Feet Under(done)
Battlestar Galactica (fixed now)
List of Battlestar Galactica (re-imagined series) episodes (done)
Dark Angel (TV series)(false alarm)
Forever Knight(done)
Harsh Realm(done)
LEXX(done)
The Outer Limits (old series) done
The Outer Limits (new series)done
Roswell (TV series) Verified for episodes which have articles - most episodes do not. --
Serge
00:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Sliders (done)
The X-Files
Torchwood (false alarm, the disambiguation was actually needed on torchwood episodes)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2003 TV series)
Frasier
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987 TV series)
InuYasha
House (TV series) done
That '70s Show admin assitance needed for
Hyde's Father (That '70s Show episode) otherwise done
M*A*S*H
Naruto seems to have an issue over what the actual titles should be for episodes that haven't aired in North America
The O.C.
The Wire (TV series)
Blackadder
Fullmetal Alchemist done
My Name Is Earl
Prison Break
Ben 10
The Prisoner
The Sopranos
X-Men
Code Lyokodone
Planetes
The Pretender (TV series)
Sex and the Citydone
CSI: Crime Scene Investigation
Strangers with Candydone
Entourage (TV series) (done) --
Serge
00:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Langt fra Las Vegas(done)
8 Simple Rules
Eureka (TV series)(done)
Supernatural (TV series)(done)
Oz (TV series)(done)
Ōban Star-Racers(done)
Weeds (TV series)(done)
Law & Order: Criminal Intent (done)
Jericho (TV series)(done)
That should be all of it.
In other words, tons of article moving if people decide to go through with this. Any volunteers here? --
`/aksha
11:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Greetings! There is currently an active discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (television) about how to title television episode articles (specifically, when suffixes are and aren't a good idea). The goal of these discussions is to hopefully attain a Consensus, which will then be enforced on all episode articles of all television series, all over Wikipedia. Since the result of this discussion will very likely directly impact the naming of this particular article, any editors involved with this article are encouraged to join the discussion. IF YOU DO NOT PARTICIPATE, YOU SHOULD NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE RESULTING DECISION. If you would like to participate, please join the discussion at: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)#RfC - Episode suffixes. Thanks!
- Greetings, <nameofseries> editors!
- As you may be aware, for the last several weeks there has been extensive discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) about how Wikipedia articles on television episodes should be named. Editors from many areas of Wikipedia, including members of several different television WikiProjects, have worked together and come up with a general guideline that article titles should include disambiguating phrases only when there is another article on Wikipedia with the same name as the episode name. Thus, if you were creating episode articles for Knight Rider, the episode Circus Knights would not need any disambiguation, whereas Nobody Does It Better (Knight Rider) would, in order to differentiate it from Nobody Does It Better (song). However, the guideline also recommends that Circus Knights (Knight Rider) exist as a redirect to the episode.
- The discussion has been fairly well-advertised at the Village Pump, in many WikiProjects' talk pages and on the talk pages of many television program episode lists. However, the editors contributing to the discussion at WP:TV-NC felt that it was appropriate to make one last call for discussion before people started moving episode articles to new names.
- We've noticed that many episodes of <nameofseries> are pre-emptively disambiguated: for example, <exampleepisode> is at <examplelocation>, even though there is no Wikipedia article at <examplelocationwithoutdisambig>. If you feel that there are strong reasons for this that have not already been considered, please join the discussion at WT:TV-NC. (The current recommendations have been reached after much consideration, and are based on a long discussion about how to best comply with Wikipedia's general article naming scheme.)
- We appreciate the work that editors do in every area of Wikipedia, and want you to feel included in the decision-making process. Thank you for your help!
I think it's a bit dicey to ask "Should WikiProjects about a particular show, be allowed to make decisions that affect the article titles for that show, or must all decisions go through WP:NC-TV?" The question basically asks if NC-TV should have any authority - if the end result is "no" then you might as well disband NC-TV completely. If you want to change the policy, propose a new wording of the policy. I think the wording of the current poll is just fine, if the validity is questioned because it changed during the poll, just run it again. Also, the issue isn't even whether TV shows must follow NC-TV - the shows in question violate WP:NAME and WP:D. If you really want to name episodes however you want, the proper course of action is to get those two changed (or at the very least post the same notice there and any similarly appropriate places). Trying to override those two from a subset of wikipedia doesn't seem fair to the rest of the editors. -- Milo H Minderbinder 21:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The list didn't actually take that long. Thanks to the fact that almost all "list of [TV series] episode" articles use the same few templates. I just did a lot of "what links here" for the templates.
Yes, posting a note to the stargate project and the buffyverse project would be poliet, and i'm about to do that.
Star Trek has already been informed on many talk pages, but there's be 0 response on any of them. I think it's safe to assume they're well informed but just don't care/mind.
Most of the ppl in the lost and 4400 project are already here. And parrallel discussions were already going on in those two projects before they got bought here, so they're well informed.
As for the series without projects, let's just go ahead. We need to balance practicality with the need to include everyone. We should just make sure we always explain and link here on the summaries so it gives people a fair chance to come here and complain/debate the moves. -- `/aksha 00:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Josiah, your version of the "polite note" is excellent; I was thinking of something along the same lines all day but haven't been able to get to a computer until now. :)
Looking at this from the point of view from a new editor coming into the discussion, I wonder if it would be beneficial to:
The second point here is served pretty well by Josiah's previous summary, but we might be able to make it easier for new people by restating that in a way that is oriented toward them. Does anyone else think this would be useful? I'd hate for anyone to be turned off by the sheer length of prose on this talk page, if they're just looking for some enlightenment on the naming convention. -- Toby Rush ‹ ✆| ✍ › 07:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I thought I'd check in here, as I've had to start a deletion review over an episode article that was deleted on the grounds that, according to guidelines, episodes with more than one part should be included entirely within the same article. Can anyone cite or otherwise verify this for me, or is it a load of hooey? -- BlueSquadronRaven 18:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
WOW! I've been gone for a few days and it looks like this just exploded and has now started to move towards a conclusion. Could someone give me the executive summary so I don't have to read through it all? Also we may want to archive this (if the discussions all done) and rather then calling it /Archive 4 with just a date it might be best to call it /Disambig Guidline Discussion that way it's easily identifiable. -- Argash | talk | contribs 09:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, thank you to Yaksha for letting the project know about this discussion - it seems we managed to miss it somehow (at least, I haven't noticed any names from people active on the project). Secondly, I'd like to explain how we do Stargate episodes and why. All episodes are "disambiguated" with either (Stargate SG-1) or (Stargate Atlantis), non-episode articles are disambiguated with (Stargate) only when necessary. The main reason for this is consistancy - it makes it much easier to link to episodes when you know exactly where to find them. Having redirects would help, but it's always best to link directly to an article if you can. One of the most important times we need to know the exact names is with out templates, of which we use a lot. The main ones relevant to this discussion are {{ sgcite}} and {{ xsgcite}} which take the name of the episode (and optionally the initial of the show, defaulting to SG-1) and output it with the appropriate disambiguation in the appropriate format for mentioning episodes inline, and in references, respectively.
If we were going to move all the articles to undisambiguated titles, we'd end up linking to redirects almost every time we mention an episode. -- Tango 09:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, one of the good things about redirects is that you can link to the "wrong article" but readers will still arrive at the "right article". However, i don't quite understand what you said about the templates. If we moved the star trek episode articles, exactly what is going to go wrong with the templates? Will they just result in links which are redirects, or is there also some other concern? -- `/aksha 10:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, we've decided to follow WP's rules for disambiguation. Let's decide if a page that must be disambiguated should have (showname) or (showname episode) appended to it. Obviously, if (showname) is chosen and it's already taken by a character page or someting, use (showname episode). - Peregrinefisher 17:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I still feel quite strongly that the earlier RfC poll is invalid, because its format and wording were changed so many times while it was in-process. [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48]for just a few diffs to indicate the mass confusion.
As such, I'd like to start over fresh, with a summary of the issue, and a new poll, where we agree on the wording beforehand, then open it, and refrain from changing the wording while it's in process. As such, here's my own "nutshell synopsis" of the issue as it stands:
Does this sound like a fair summary of the issue, and a fair wording of a poll question? If not, please feel free to suggest alternate wording. -- Elonka 20:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, here's a compromise proposal. If you ask the people who voted against the guideline you want, and explain to them what the vote was really for, and you find more than a few people that eseentially say, "Oh!!! Is that what I supported! I wanted to vote on the other side!", then we can restart the poll. What do people think of that? Your appeal for re-starting the poll is alleged procedure problems, but the appeal needs to be won (i.e., the procedure problems need to be proven) before the poll can be re-run. — Wknight94 ( talk) 22:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, I already posted messages to those same people a long time ago. They all seem totally disinterested. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 22:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka - You're providing evidence that things were changed around - no one is disputing that. I'm asking for evidence that any of the votes up there currently does not reflect the position of the voter at that time the vote was made. Second, you're ignoring Josiah's lucid argument about the problem with relying on polls in the first place, and the discussion establishing the true and preferred consensus. Third, you're ignoring the fact that voters were notified about the changes. Fourth, are you serious about "it won't matter how many polls we do"? Requiring people to revote is unfair (which is why I'm abstaining from the survey started today about whether "episode" should be included - even though there was no consensus on that point established). We should try to avoid voting in the first place (per Josiah's argument). We should try to avoid revotes even more. I'm starting to believe that you're just complaining for the perhaps-unconscious-and-so-in-good-faith purposes of simply delaying changes that you (and hardly anyone else) happen to oppose. -- Serge 23:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
For the most part, I don't think those diffs really prove much of anything. The question didn't really change, just the debate around it. And if anyone felt like their vote was invalidated by the change, why haven't they said so themselves. It just seems like an excuse to re-do and hope there's a different result, even though the discussion itself shows a pretty strong consensus. And I take strong issue with the proposed summary, it's incredibly biased toward those who don't want to follow the naming guidelines among other things. I'm glad to see that articles are already being renamed, let's hope that attempts at stalling don't slow it down. -- Milo H Minderbinder 23:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Did someone just accuse me of being a fucking sockpuppet? I ain't nobody's puppet, hear? Izzy Dot ( talk | contribs) 00:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
No, waste of time. Discussion reached agreements, so what's the point of dragging everyone around for a new poll? We're in the agreement that the guildline should be "disambiguate only when needed", now all you're arguing about is whether to allow exceptions. The episode articles for about half a dozen series have already been moved, and there's no evidence of there being any disruption caused. Quite the opposite actually (see the reply here). So exactly what are you argueing for? to change the guildlines around to "always disambiguate"? Or is this back down to the fact that you want Lost episodes and Star Trek episodes to say the way they are? -- `/aksha 03:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
As for why I want a new poll, I believe that with the vitriole in this discussion, where a few editors with highly uncivil communication styles are attacking anyone who disagrees with them, that this environment has not been conducive to civil discussion. Further, I believe that this discussion has been dominated by a few editors who have the time to post multiple times per day, but I do not agree that someone who posts more often, should have their opinion given more weight than that of someone who can only post a few times per week. This is another reason that I would like to see a fair poll conducted, to ensure that we have the widest possible participation, where different editors' voices are given equal weight.
Anyway, after wading through the latest series of personal attacks and incivility, here's what I've distilled as the next round of potential new poll wording. Do folks like this better?
And folks, please try to keep comments civil? I've been asked why I don't specifically reply to everyone's comments here, and one reason is, that as soon as someone resorts to personal attacks or uncivility, I tend to ignore anything else they have to say (as is recommended in WP:CIVIL). So if you want your voice to be heard, please concentrate on being polite, being civil, and showing that you have as much respect for the opinions of editors who disagree with you, as respect for the opinions of those who agree with you. A civil discussion all around, will help things to move along much more smoothly. Thanks, -- Elonka 23:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Alright, so I haven't heard any objections to the new poll wording so far. Let's give it another day or so, and then if there are still no objections, we'll open, and announce on all the List/WikiProject pages about the new poll. -- Elonka 21:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
There are sufficient calls for a new poll, that we are going to proceed with one. Once the new poll is announced, we can put the word out to all the WikiProjects to come in and participate. If, as some of the individuals in this discussion insist, there is already consensus, it will show up in the poll. If not, we need to keep talking, and/or take this to mediation or ArbCom.
The poll format will be thusly. If anyone would like changes, please be specific:
I think that this poll system also has the advantage of allowing people to post specific opinions, rather than a simply polarized support/oppose, which will further facilitate the "discussion" nature of this issue.
Last call: Any concerns about the wording? -- Elonka 18:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm opposed to having another poll, particularly before Josiah's argument about the discussion being the preferred way to establish consensus, not polls, is addresed. And also Ned's analysis below needs to be addressed by those arguing another poll is never-the-less justified. Before that's all addressed, I would support immediately closing any poll like this that is posted. But IF all that is addressed and consensus is established to have a new poll (that's a big IF), the wording above needs a lot of work. In particular,it needs to reflect the Wikipedia philosophy of qualifying names beyond the simple/common name only when needed for disambiguation, and for the particular qualification to depend more on what the other subjects are rather than the category each article happens to be in ( WP:D). In case it comes to that, here's a specific suggestion for the wording.
-- Serge 19:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't agree that there have been sufficient calls for a new poll - if that's really the case, I'd like to see a tally of who's for and against (especially since I was listed incorrectly as someone in favor of another poll!). If a new poll ends up happening, I think the only way to do it is to actually write up proposed wordings for the different options and simply vote on those. Otherwise, after a poll is done, people will still argue over what the wording should be. Any poll should also make it explicitly clear that disambiguating when it's not necessary has no precedent in wikipedia (ships do not predisambiguate as suggested above) and conflicts with both WP:NAME and WP:DAB. Any calls for participants at various wikiprojects should also be posted at the talk pages for both of those as well. -- Milo H Minderbinder 20:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I've been following this discussion but haven't been contributing - I just wanted to add another voice to those who believe that episode titles should be disambiguated only when necessary to avoid confusion, and that there's really no need for another poll. It seems that only two people believe that individual projects should be allowed to name articles as they seem fit; everyone else believes otherwise. It seemed like the Stargate project had the only potentially reasonable claim for an exception I've heard - the rather complicated citing template they'd developed - but that problem seems to have been worked out as well. So there's my opinion, for what it's worth. -- Brian Olsen 20:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, why do you keep plowing through with this supposedly agreed upon pole? At the very best—for your argument—there is no consensus either way. That means you leave things as they are. You can't have consensus with this much opposition. At the worst, there's consensus not to poll. Now, so far we've seen you stall, ignore the many opinions you don't agree with and even level a baseless claim of sockpuppetry. If you can't contribute without commiting all these bad faith acts, maybe you should excuse yourself from these proceedings. At the very least, you've shown that, whatever your stake in this discussion, your bias has made you unreasonable. And no, this is not an attack. I've your userspace, and I know you're good. However, as another user commented to you, your behavior here has been disappointing. While I can't say that your "side" will be represented without you, it doesn't seem like you're really helping your case anymore, either. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
There is NOT enough calls for a new poll. We do NOT need a new poll. Seriously, taking this to the ArbCom? this is boarderlining trolling. We had a problem, the problem got fixed, someone who wasn't pleased with the result is now going to what...? keep stiring up discussion until things turn out in their way or until everyone else gets sick of it and leaves...leaving them to do what they want? someone tell me wikipedia does have some kind of mechanism to protect people from having to waste time on this kind of stirring-up-a-problem-when-none-exists... -- `/aksha 03:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
My goodness, now I'm being accused of "bad faith", "trolling", "being unreasonable," "disappointing," "transparent and blatantly pathetic," and "ignoring" people simply because I didn't respond within "several hours." Folks, please, relax. :) Sometimes I can get on Wikipedia every day, sometimes I can only get on once per day. And in the "once per day" time periods, it's very difficult to plow through dozens of messages (today it's 30 messages since my last post) of people calling me all kinds of names for "ignoring" them, and reply in detail to each and every post (especially when I'm not particularly inclined to respond to personal attacks in the first place).
To be clear about why I do not think that we have consensus:
Now, voices I do respect in this discussion, even if I occasionally disagree with them, are TobyRush, Josiah Rowe, and Radiant. I look forward to further communications with them, as well as with the others in this discussion who have been participating in a civil manner, towards achieving a real consensus.
Anyone who takes the time to dig through my contribution history, or who has participated in discussions with me in the past, I hope realizes that I am a fair-minded individual who can engage in civil discussion, who can compromise, and who will abide by consensus. But I have not been seeing consensus here, I have been seeing a lot of unethical tactics, I have been seeing harassment, I have been seeing personal attacks, I have seen a poll that was thoroughly shredded in order to twist it into a biased format, and I have seen highly vocal resistance to a new and fair poll, which again reinforces to me that there's something shady going on. So I repeat again: Let's encourage civil discussion, and let's do a clean poll. If, on a level playing field, the genuine consensus is to enforce strict disambiguation rules, then not only will I abide by that consensus, I'll actually help with moving the articles. But so far, I am not seeing a civil consensus, I am seeing a noisy madhouse, with a few voices trying to have a civil discussion but getting drowned out by the roar. It is my opinion that a clean poll will help to clarify people's stands, with a "one comment per voice" method. If there's a genuine consensus, a poll will show this, and I give my word that I will abide by the decision of a clean and fair poll. -- Elonka 19:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Elonka, I agree with Serge, Jay and Wiknight. Your proposal of a new poll was clearly opposed, yet you moved forth as if it had been lauded. This is just one of many actions which worry us. We're not attacking you, we're just asking that you be as reasonable with us as you'd want us to be with you. "Do onto others". Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 20:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I think the comments about ignoring other's point of view have nothing to do with taking time to reply, but posting a reply that doesn't address the other side at all. When multiple people say they have objections, followed by a response like "since there have been no objections..." that sure seems like ignoring. And what has been disruptive about moving articles so far? It seems like it has gone very smoothly and I haven't seen any objections from the various TV shows. This is a guideline, if a few people want to change it, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be followed in its current state during that discussion. -- Milo H Minderbinder 21:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If a new poll is to be made, then I insist that we ask an additional question: Who would win in a fight, Spider-Man or Wolverine? -- Ned Scott 06:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, after giving this some thought, I've changed my mind: with a few caveats, I will support a new poll, in the interests of clearing the air. I don't really think it's necessary — I think that the discussion has already established a consensus to avoid preemptive disambiguation — but I do agree that the tone of the discussion here has seriously deteriorated, and if a new poll is what it takes to calm things down I would rather have that than continued mudslinging. If other editors agree, we should try to find a clear, neutrally worded poll, and carefully follow the guidelines at Wikipedia:Straw polls.
As for those caveats, I just want us to remember that guidelines are not established by polls, but by discussion-based consensus. Elonka is correct that frequency of posting is not important — however, arguments and reason are. It would be good for editors to boil their arguments down to the key points, and state them clearly. The consensus will be based not merely on the number of votes, but on the quality of the arguments used and how widespread support for those arguments is.
I know that holding a new poll will be tedious and may feel like a waste of time, but surely this ongoing debate is a bigger waste of time. Ideally, we would discuss rather than vote, but the discussion here has deteriorated so much that a vote may actually help. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 20:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I've submitted withdrawn the following move request at
WP:RM:
-- Serge 01:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Nohat, you're right. You guys are okay.
Serge, I really disagree, but if that's the way things are, I'm not going to pull an Elonka. Izzy Dot ( talk | contribs) 02:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
To Elonka - a lot of articles have already been moved over the last few days. You can take a look at the list futher up the page if you want. I believe you will find there is no evidence what so ever that those moves have been causing any confusion or disruption to editors on those articles. In fact, regular editors on those TV series have actually been helping in some cases.
With regards to this move - no, there's no point putting it to requested moves. Just tag it for speedy deletion. A part of the criteria under "housekeeping" allows for the deletion of redirect pages so proper page moves can be made (as oppossed to the copy and paste method). The template you should use is {{db-move|Page to be moved}}. -- `/aksha 03:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The move was done through a speedy delete of the old Smothered redirect page. -- Serge 15:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The last hour I've stepped through each edit difference during the poll. I've made the following notes to show who voted during what "version" of the poll. The poll format did get changed, but I only found three different formats that contained votes.
So lets start:
Argash sets up RfC with the basic concept, pre-poll format
[57]
Izzy Dot formats a poll based on Argash's RfC summary and suggestions [58]
Note: struck out editors are those who confirmed their vote in a later format. Editors in italics confirmed their vote later on in discussion, etc under the 2nd format.
Votes (1st format)
Izzy Dot removes "opposes" in all three sections [59]
Votes (1st format, continued, no "formating" has been changed)
I changed the bullets to numbers (* -> #) for easy counting [60]
I make the first major change to the poll since it started (same day). [61] In this change the two issues become separated. What people supported previously is still "true", however some of the previous editors may need to list themselves under the new oppose section of "Disambig only when necessary". I then note this in the discussion.
Votes (2nd format)
Izzy Dot makes second poll change [62]
No votes take place in this format
I make third poll change, reverting back to 2nd format [63]
Note: I restore Matthew's oppose of "Disambig only when necessary", which was marked as an oppose before the oppose section was created. [64]
Votes (2nd format, continued)
Shannernanner makes fourth poll change, adds oppose sections to the section issue options [65].
Votes (3rd format)
I revert back to 2nd format [66]
Votes (2nd format, continued)
Elonka makes poll change, format and re-definition of sections similar to the 1st version
[67]
[68]
No votes take place with this format
Note: Jay32183 did strike a comment because of the change, but un-struck it after it was reverted)
I revert back to 2nd format [69]
Votes (2nd format, continued)
Now lets update those lists excluding anyone who later made their vote clear.
1st format
2nd format
3rd format
So..
These editors have not updated or "confirmed" their vote:
Now lets see who voted support for "disambig only when necessary" (Regardless of format, we know they supported this. We only don't know what they supported for Disambig title):
The only editors who didn't vote under the 2nd format and didn't note support for "disambig only when necessary" were:
This much we know is true from the poll. -- Ned Scott 05:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
At this point, i completely fail to see what the problem is.
We agree to keep the guildline as it is.
Guildlines, by definition (and common sense), are followed by default.
A lot of article moving has already happened, with no evidence of any disruption or damage caused.
We have agreed to leave the format of disambiguation as is. There is still debate about this, however people have expressed that they don't feel it's a very important issue.
There is still debate about what to do with wikiprojects that decide to disambiguate.
In other words, we're arguing about a "what if" problem. Why don't we leave debating about this problem when there actually exists a wikiproject who does have project-wide consensus to disambiguate?
So unless someone would like to enlighten me on exactly what our problem is, can we just focus on...actually getting things done? As in get articles moved and deal with problems when they actually show up. -- `/aksha 06:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I just started to fix the Frasier episode names - adding redirects or fixing disambigs as needed - and found The Good Son as a good example of why I suggested "(episode)" as a disambiguator rather than the show name. Not trying to change the standard now - just pointing out an example. -- Chuq 08:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I look through categories regularly at WP but am still learning many things about editing properly. In this specific case, I am looking through tv-related categories and I see many more articles without "(TV series)" than with. Does this mean we should move every appropriate article to a new name containing "TV series" or other appropriate title suffix or only do so under specific circumstances? -- CobraWiki ( jabber| stuff) 22:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
No offence taken, Chuq. Thanks all for the explanations. Looking at it from a "simple is better" point does make perfect sense. -- CobraWiki ( jabber| stuff) 08:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)