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There are currently two competing styles for naming counties. Please vote for the one you prefer, or suggest an alternative. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 01:12, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
Type | char. | Normal | Disambiguate | |
---|---|---|---|---|
by location | by type | |||
Style A | 1 | Panxian 盘县 | Shexian, Anhui 歙县 | no example yet |
Shexian, Hebei 涉县 | ||||
>1 |
Fugou 扶沟县 Dachang 大厂回族自治县 |
no example yet | Poyang County 鄱阳县 | |
Lake Poyang 鄱阳湖 | ||||
Style B | 1 | Pan County 盘县 | She County, Anhui 歙县 | no example yet |
She County, Hebei 涉县 | ||||
>1 |
Fugou County 扶沟县 Dachang Hui Autonomous County 大厂回族自治县 ROC: Hsinchu County 新竹縣 |
no example yet | Poyang County 鄱阳县 | |
Lake Poyang 鄱阳湖 |
Style A is the style that is currently used (more or less) by provinces, autonomous regions, and cities of all levels (municipalities, prefecture-level, and county-level). In Chinese, these are 省、自治区、直辖市、地级市、县级市.
Style B is the style that is currently used (more or less) by counties and cities in Taiwan, prefectures, autonomous prefectures, leagues and banners, county-level districts, towns, townships, and so forth. In Chinese, these are 臺灣各縣市、地区、自治州、盟旗、市辖区、镇、乡.
Basically, county-level cities (县级市) go into Style A; county-level districts (市辖区) and banners (旗) go into Style B; so counties are where these two camps meet. (County-level "cities" really aren't that different from counties despite what the names seem to suggest.) So your help is needed in deciding which of the two camps counties should go into.
There's some discussion further up on this page about this topic already; you can refer to them before voting. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 01:12, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
Put your votes below.
Put your votes below.
Continued at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Hong Kong people.27s name
It is only a dispute among you guys. Real linguists identify 14 languages under the family of Chinese languages, whereas Seiyap and Sunwui are regarded dialects under Cantonese or Yue. Please refer to Ethnologue for details.
The relationship between Cantonese and Mandarin to Chinese languages is like that of English and German to Germanic languages.
Scots is also in dispute for being a language on its own or a dialect of English. But on Wikipedia it is listed according to the definition of the linguists.
I'd like to establish some kind of convention on how to translate the word 王 (wáng). Some articles use "king" and some use "prince". I noticed that I contradicted myself in a short period of time recently, moving one page to King of Hongnong and another to Prince He of Changyi, so I'd like other people's opinions. My initial inclination would be to use "king" in the case of pre-Qin dynasty people, when the title was essentially the highest one available, and then use "prince" subsequently. However, I don't know what seems right to everybody else. - Nat Kraus e 11:51, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As Hong Kong and Macao continue to participate in various international activities as independent entities, and the governments of the two take care of all issues except national defense and diplomatic relations. PRC's ministries in Peking has no jurisdiction or administrative power over Hong Kong and Macao. Hong Kong and Macao are effectively operating as other entities. Therefore, wherever under a listing or grouping of countries and territories, "Hong Kong", "Macao" and "mainland China" should be listed under countries and territories, instead of "People's Republic of China", and "Hong Kong" and "Macao" shouldn't be listed under "People's Republic of China" or "Mainland China". In my opinion this will be a much more accurate, clear and easily-understandable description of the status quo, and avoid unnecessary confusions.
For international organisations or activities, Hong Kong's and Macao's interests or participations are usually not prepresented by the delegations from PRC. The names used to join or participate, by Hong Kong and Macao (such as "Hong Kong, China" at WTO, APEC and Olympic), should be used instead og "Hong Kong". "Mainland China" would be a more proper description.
For the Republic of China on Taiwan, Pescadores, Quemoy, Matsu, Pratas and numerous islands, it would be better to be referred as "[[Republic of China|Republic of China (Taiwan)]]", "[[Republic of China|Taiwan, Republic of China]]", or "[[Republic of China|Taiwan, ROC]]", to avoid confusions and unnecessary disputes. Republic of China (Taiwan) should not be listed under PRC or mainland China, and should be listed with other countries and territories. -- December 8, 2004 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Hong Kong and Macao and Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Republic of China / Taiwan
The Chinese names included in items related to Hong Kong, Macao and the ROC (Taiwan) should be in traditional Chinese characters. For Hong Kong and Macao, the Cantonese pronunciation in IPA should be included, and for Taiwan, the Mandarin pronunciation in Tongyong, together with Hanyu Pinyin. The English name should be consistence with the official ones by the corresponding governments (HKSAR Govt, MSAR Govt, governments of municipalities, counties or provincial cities for the ROC) or commonly known among the local people, if it commonly known versions are more widely accepted than the official ones. -- December 8, 2004 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Hong Kong and Macao and Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Republic of China / Taiwan
A section about NPOV cannot contain POV statements:
Anyone may agree or disagree with the above points of view. But they are just that: points of view (POV), which have been the subject of sharp debate over decades. And phrasing that seems to imply that it is official Wikipedia policy to take one particular political stance on such issues is even more problematic.
These sentences should simply be omitted entirely; this section can get its point across (the need to be neutral on cross-straits issues) without them.
Also, the Republic of China's claim of sovereignty over Mainland China is purely pro forma; no one today seriously presses this claim. It's just a chip in games of diplomatic poker. In English usage, the Republic of China today is always referred to as such, either in full or by the abbreviation ROC; the word "China" alone in reference to current events and situations never refers to the Republic of China.
Thus the usage "of China", "in China", "China's" is preferable to insisting on the cumbersome use of "People's Republic of China" in every possible context. This reflects the usage of English-language news media and everyday conversational usage, and is consistent with the policy on using common names. In the news media and everyday usage, a phrase like "China's economy" always refers to the PRC's economy.
Usage of "People's Republic of China" isn't incorrect, obviously, but should only be really necessary in limited contexts, primarily in some but not all political and historical contexts.
-- Curps 05:21, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. ROC's claim over mainland China has already been forgotten in the ashes. No one seriously take that any more. One comment: In English usage, the Republic of China today is always referred to as Taiwan. Not a single english media I have read, used Republic of China or abbreviation ROC. Perhap you wouldn't mind sharing your news source you have been reading with us?? If PRC want's to be called China, why not? Then we shall let ROC to be called Taiwan at the same time. :) Mababa 06:03, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Comment: The real question is what is the definition of "China"? How many of those Cantonese-speaking immigrants and their descendants still holds the unrealistic and dreamy belief/delusion that ROC is the solely legitimate government of China? I doubt it would be many. ROC/Taiwan should be disengaged from China's definition a long time ago. To include Taiwan into the geographic definition of China is already a POV statement. If not, why shouldn't Mongolia, Vietnam, Korea being included as the geographical defined China? There is obvious political implication of it which has already been discussed in the political status of Taiwan. If Taiwan did not fall into ROC's hand, would it be considered as part of geographic of China at all?? Though there is discussion of the political dispute in the article China, the opening statment is still biased and insufficient. To include Taiwanese culture into the cultural definition of China is again another political POV. If not, why shouldn't we include Vietnam, Korea, and Japan into part of Chinese culture? Remember, before 1945, few people are fluent in Mandarin. Before the 16, 17 century, Taiwanese can only speak aboringinal language. Why not let China be China? PRC be China? We might argue that the mass media use the term China interchangable with PRC and Taiwan interchangable with ROC, isn't that the public view so that they pick the usage? Why's a encyclopedia dislodged or segregated from the public common knowledge? I would much agree that the current NPOV policy to be enforced; however, I would love to see a good discussion on the definition of "China," and perhaps find a new neutral point to disengage ROC from occupying the term "China", a term PRC deserves to be rewarded and solely enjoyed. Mababa 06:03, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that, even though many Taiwanese have assumed a Taiwanese identity, there are still many people carry the perception that ROC is part of China (here, we do not know what exactly it is or if it exists as a present tense or perhaps a past tense or a future tense). Therefore I have no intention to further dispute on it. Let's be open minded. The clear answer would only come out on the day when either unification occurs or independence is realized. The current NPOV convention policy give nice protection for both side so that no statements in Wiki should take side on either side. I am happy and amazed on how nice it works; and I actually do not seek a different definition of the term "China". However, practically, there is a clear need to direct China to PRC and thus the articles such as the politics of China exists which is dedicated solely to PRC, even though the usage of "China" does not comply with the NPOV convention. I am cool with that since it nicely serves the purpose for people looking for information on PRC and did not make political statement that ROC is part of it. In this arrangement, PRC's claim over Taiwan is still left neutral and was not damaged nor bolstered. Now, I would be even happier if the article political divisions of China and the aritcle province of China can follow that arrangement, leave ROC outside of the article and stop the current POV situation. Again, PRC's claim over Taiwan would nicely be kept intact. Though convention not accurately followed, for practical reasons, I would not further make any fuss as long as the article is not biased against Taiwan/ROC. Please comment on this proposal on the discussion page of political divisions of China. If this does not work, please give alternative suggestions that complies with the current NPOV policy or other creative solutions that do not bias against Taiwan/ROC. Many thanks. P.S. there are evidence/theories currently dispute whether a mass migration actually occurred after the 16th century. Mababa 01:04, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that something to the following effect be added to the naming conventions. This is not intended as a substantive change, only as clarification:
It's unnecessary, even undesirable according to the policy on original research, for us to attempt to define what "China" and "Taiwan" might mean in a political context. It's of course Ok to cite various opinions that have been formulated, but this is one issue that we can't, won't, and needn't solve.
Also note that this is not a matter to be treated lightly. In some contexts it is literally a matter of war and peace. For example, Article 4 of the ROC constitution provides that "[t]he territory of the Republic of China according to its existing national boundaries shall not be altered except by resolution of the National Assembly." Currently the ROC officially still claims sovereignty over the Chinese mainland. The official map of the ROC even has the pre-1949 external and provincial borders, as well as old names for provinces and cities. However, should the National Assembly decide that it's time to acknowledge that the ROC's territorial claims have been contradicted by reality for more than half a century and declare that the ROC's territory encompasses only Taiwan and the outlying islands currently controlled by the ROC, such a decision would likely be seen as a move toward independence.
As others have pointed out, the fact that most governments around the world use "China" to refer to the PRC is partly due to the PRC's foreign policy. There is an ongoing tug-of-war between the PRC and ROC over diplomatic relations, and the PRC has been insisting on being referred to as the sole representative of "China" as a pre-condition for diplomatic relations.
Finally, the issue of "common names" is not as simple as it may appear. We need to strike a balance between common usage on the one hand, and accuracy and consistency on the other. We cannot rely on "well, I've never heard of it before"-type arguments, nor can we rely on the mass media to provide answers. In the world described by the mass media, many specialized branches of science (say, polymer science) don't exist, all mathematicians are Fields Medal winners working on number theory, sushi is raw fish, all computer criminals are adolescent males, Africa consists of about a dozen countries along the northern coast and southern tip, etc. etc. In non-specialized discourse that is typical of the mass media, the word "Taiwan" may be sufficiently precise for most people; but our job should be not just to inform, but also to educate (yes, there is a difference) and to synthesize and reference specialized literature. And in those specialized contexts, "common usage" is quite different from mass media "common usage". -- MarkSweep 10:27, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is quite interesting that the ROC constitution was used as the basis for us to decide on the usage of these terms. Since it has been brought up, I think people should also be made aware of the fact that the ROC constitution initially did not include Taiwan into ROC and the National Assembly did not ever make any resolution to annex Taiwan into ROC territory either. Thus, it was illegal for ROC to claim Taiwan sovereignty. [2] Yes, I do agree that ROC and Taiwan should be separated and should not be interchangable for the sake of formality. If we failed to do so, we will be helping ROC claiming sovereignty over Taiwan. This being said; Taiwan, as a geogrphical entity, deserves the same level of treatment as the term "China", as a geogrphical entity. I do not see any reason why Taiwan can not have articles on economy, politics and demographics since China seemed to have everything, being a geographical entity. Mababa 06:25, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Going back to the point made at the top of this section, we really can't have a statement making those POV statements. Nor should we have a requirement that Wikipedia reports certain topics in a way which we know to be factually incorrect. This part of the naming convention should be removed post haste, jguk 13:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The most important thing about a Wikipedia article is that it should be readily understandable to as many people as possible. We should think of the readers and not confuse them. I am not alone in never hearing of the term ROC before coming on Wikipedia - certainly where I am it is very rarely, if indeed at all, used. Also it seems to be a political charged term - I'm sure the Beijing government does not recognise a "Republic of China" - so using this term is likely to be POV anyway.
But my main point is there is a word, "Taiwan", that everyone understands. Tiny complexities in Taiwanese politics may be worthy of note in an article - but please keep those niceties to the text. Articles should be named using the word "Taiwan" alone - with the only exception being where it is clearly wholly inappropriate (eg it is specifically about the ROC as opposed to Taiwan). I can think of only two exceptions - the articles on "Republic of China" and on "Flag of the Republic of China" - I doubt there are many other exceptions.
So - please think of the reader and use terms that they will understand jguk 20:55, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Note: The purposal by Instantnood was, apparently, opposed by numerous people who did not refer to the Naming convention.
The discussion for List of Taiwan-related topics (by category) → List of Republic of China-related topics (by category) is here.
Instantnood, can we solidify some of the discussions so we're not looking at many pieces of discussion, i.e. have a place where -all- of the arguments can be placed at once? —
Penwhale 01:27, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The following pages were nominated on
WP:RM for moving.
The nominations are to make the titles of these articles to conform with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV: " the word "Taiwan" should not be used if the term "Republic of China" is more accurate. ".
The suggested move is way too controversial and does not reflect true usage of the word Taiwan. If you want to say Republic of China refers to the polity that ruled China for awhile and now is on Taiwan, then none of your moves make sense. You think Economy of the Republic of China should include a historical section about China and then talk about Taiwan? Makes no sense whatsoever.-- 160.39.195.88 22:53, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
List of Taiwan-related topics (by category), List of Taiwan-related topics and Geography of Taiwan are nominated on WP:RM separately from the ones above, for the possibility to be cleaned up rather than moved.
See also the precedants of the move requests of Template:Politics of Taiwan, Politics of Taiwan, Category:Taiwanese political parties and List of metropolitan areas in Taiwan. — Insta ntnood 21:25 Feb 27 2005 (UTC)
Penwhale, I guess highway system will perhaps be the most controversial one. We did have a debate on List of metropolitan areas in Taiwan at WP:RM. This one on highway system could be comparable. It talks about "national highways". I also asked if "township highways" are found in the two Fukien counties. — Insta ntnood 09:31 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
But still, like the discussion on metropolitan areas, it involves the designation and policies of the central government of the ROC, and highways that are national. — Insta ntnood 15:14 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
Much of this let's move everything to ROC approach appears to be borne out of not really understanding what people mean by Taiwan. From what I can tell it has two (perhaps three) meanings:
Those advocating a move to ROC are forgetting not only that it is a little-used term, but are also ignoring the second meaning listed above.
There is nothing unusual about meaning 2. Take the example of France, which most people would take in most instances as being Metropolitan France. However, in some contexts, such as "Guadeloupe is part of France", meaning 2 clearly takes precedence. We see this elsewhere "Jersey" could mean the island of Jersey, or it could mean all the other little islands governed by Jersey. And similarly for many other places.
Please note that "Taiwan" is therefore the most appropriate terminology to use in almost all cases. It is the term that most people use and understand. ROC is little used (not at all from what I've seen in the UK) and should be reserved only for those articles where Taiwan in its extended second meaning is not appropriate. This is only fair on the reader - who should not be confused! It also means we do not need to get into discussions about the POV nature of using the term "ROC" - I bet if I asked the Chinese Embassy for guidance that they would tell me that no such thing exists in international law, jguk 13:12, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You clearly haven't been paying very close attention. The ROC province of Taiwan is the island of Taiwan minus the municipalities of Taipei and Kaohsiung. Also, your second definition of Taiwan is what is in dispute - those in favor of the moves are contending that the "areas ruled by the government in Taipei" cannot be properly referred to as "Taiwan". At any rate, the term "Republic of China" is simply not little used. When you remove all references to "People's Republic of China", there are still 1.5 million hits for "Republic of China." There are also about two million hits for ROC +Taiwan. So that's about 3.5 million hits, although there's probably some overlap. Of course, there are many more for Taiwan, but that is beside the point. As for not being used at all in Britain, well... [3], there's that. Your France exammple, at any rate, is flawed. The government which rules over Guadaloupe is called the French Republic, or France. As such, it is not in any sense inaccurate to say that Guadaloupe is part of France, while acknowledging that it is also not part of metropolitan France. Same deal for Jersey and all the other examples you cite. The point here is that the government which rules Quemoy and Matsu, and is based on Taiwan, does not call itself "Taiwan". It calls itself the "Republic of China". Furthermore, the PRC also does not consider these islands to be part of their (notional) province of Taiwan - rather, they are considered to be part of the mainland provinces. So, it would seem, neither the ROC nor the PRC consider Quemoy and Matsu to be part of Taiwan. It is only a lazy western media which uses "Taiwan" as shorthand for "Republic of China" that does so. Of course, there are political reasons for this, and, indeed, to use ROC is to accept the ROC's own POV. However, there is no choice but to be POV, as there is no NPOV option - we have to call it something, and it makes more sense to call it by the name it calls itself, and the name by which those countries which do recognize it refer to it as, rather than a constructed name made up by western countries that want to be able to deal with the ROC while maintaining relations with the PRC have come up with. The question of whether the country should become the "Republic of Taiwan" is a controversial one within Taiwan itself, and the idea that we should pander to this because people from Britain might be confused by what is a perfectly common usage is absurd. Especially since our Republic of China article explains pretty clearly what exactly is going on. john k 16:04, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just to give a further example of why "ROC" is often preferred, here's an excerpt from President of the Republic of China:
This acknowledges the existence of the terminology that jguk and others have encountered in the Western mass media, and at the same time points out why that terminology is not used by those directly affected. I believe this article addresses everyone's concerns: the article title uses the correct official title of the ROC president, while still pointing out the common Western usage. It is also easy for anyone to find, because President of Taiwan redirects to President of the Republic of China. Most of the issues of "common usage" can be resolved in a similar fashion without having to sacrifice accuracy. -- MarkSweep 20:35, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
JG's entire argument revolves around the oft-repeated, but never-explained, claim that "most English-speakers can easily understand the second meaning of "Taiwan" outlined above. They can't understand ROC." He has yet to demonstrate how the terms Republic of China/ROC, which appear in millions of webpages, are not comprehensible to English-speakers. So far his only arguments seem to consist of glorifications of his own ignorance (his lack of knowledge of our policy on Ireland only confirms this). john k 05:35, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another silly statement from JG: "Where a polity is mostly based on one island it is common practice that the name of the island is used for the name of the polity too." Do we call the Dominican Republic "Hispaniola"? The reason that "when a polity is mostly based on one island" that island name is usually used for the polity as well is because most such polities call themselves after that island, with the Republic of Ireland, Sri Lanka, Cuba, Saint Lucia, and so forth as examples. Also, because the name of the polity often becomes the name of the island in such circumstances. Thus, the island we used to call Ceylon we now call Sri Lanka, because this is the name of the polity on the island. Obviously, the ROC's presence on Taiwan isn't going to mean that the island starts to be called "China," and it also continues to choose not to call itself "Taiwan". So this whole line of argument is completely irrelevant. john k 05:42, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just to note, re: Great Britain, that we have, in the past, had arguments over the very question of when it is appropriate to use "Great Britain". The conclusion reached, I believe, was that "Britain" (and "British", of course) is an acceptable short hand for the UK, but that "Great Britain" is not, referring only to the island of Great Britain, and should only be used for the 1707-1800 period. john k 21:02, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A year ago, there was a proposal, expressed in terms of revolutionary organisations, to "call the group what it calls itself". The ensuing discussion for this proposal, which was rejected, can sill be read at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (common_names)#Proposed policy on names of groups. I find one comment particularlty interesting:
The proposal is in fact a highly PoV one, rather than a reduction of PoV. It is not only PoV in intent, by assuming and validating the extreme PoVs that
- most English-speakers are sheep at the mercy of corporate media, and
- educated humans forget easily that a name is just a verbal tag and carries no information about the thing it names.
It also is PoV in effect, serving to impede recollection of what a reader already knows (or believes -- and don't forget that the difference is their business, not ours) about less visible groups. This favors the PoVs of fringe groups over mainstream ones, since smaller ones are much more likely to have their alienating past obscured by our use of an obscure name that has not passed the muster of the market place of ideas.
This is not, BTW, a matter applying just to groups the size of sects (whether religious or political). For instance, if any significant number of Americans could remember the obscure names of the highly significant PRK, The West Wing would never discuss the "Republic of North Korea". -- Jerzy (t) 23:10, 2004 Mar 4 (UTC)
Susvolans (pigs can fly) 17:56, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think what Penwhale said is right. Both ROC and Taiwan as a political entity are very POV. Even though ROC government has yet officially renounce its claim over mainland China, this claim has been unofficially dropped. The ROC officials frequently used the term "Taiwan" to refer the current government. Here, two contradictory POVs have already generated within the government. Let's look at the UN charter: Article 23.1. The Security Council shall consist of fifteen Members of the United Nations. The Republic of China, France...... [4]. According to the UN charter, the PRC is sitting on the security council under the name of ROC. Therefore, (legally, perhaps?) PRC=ROC. Here is another POV. Many Taiwanese believe in the popular sovereingty theory equates ROC to Taiwan. (e.g. Chen Shui-Bian) Many Taiwanese rejects Chinese sovereignty distinguish Taiwan from ROC.(e.g. Lee Tung-hui) Many Taiwanese believes in Chinese sovereignty (e.g. James Soong) belives ROC=China>Taiwan. There are also politicians doesn't seem to have strong opinion.(e.g. Lien Chien) So three POVs among Taiwanese. PRC's citizens might think ROC does not exist any more. Western mass media calls the political entity on Taiwan island, Taiwan. Which one should we represent? Please remember that even though we are supposed to present the most accurate information to the readers, on topics like this, the best we can do is to present the neutral infomation that is the more inclusive than suppressing others. Is any of the definition of ROC-Taiwan relationship above factual? Are we suppose to difine it? Isn't that rejecting the western common usage also an POV?
Moreover, how do we know that the term "Taiwan" does not change its definition? Looking at the dictionary in Princteon, Taiwan could be used to refer the goverment controlling the island Taiwan [5]. Are we the ones to prejedice against the definition of Taiwan which is commonly used in the world? If so, why don't we just write this encyclopedia in Latin? No one is saying that ROC is a unrecognizable term, people are only saying the term is confusing and the term Taiwan is more representitive for the political entity than the term "Republic of China."
Of course, as an encyclopedia, the articles should reveal the most correct information to the readers. Presenting all these different POVs is never a problem. The only question is what definition should we follow for the title of the article? And also should everything about Taiwan island to be under the title XXX of ROC because it is controlled by this Chinese regime or should we put them under the title XXX of Taiwan since Taiwan is an cultural/geographical entity? Example: the debates in Geography of Taiwan.
In my opinion, we should choose the word that helps people looking for their information in the title. The NPOV could be worked out in the article.
Moreover, it is debatable that Taiwan is not part of China since it is currently adminitrated by a Chinese regime which arguably in exile and does not have legal sovereignty over the island. If we separate the political entity of ROC from the geographical entity, Taiwan, then should we also withdraw Taiwan (as a geographical entity) from China (as a geographical entity)? The only reason for Taiwan to be included in to China(as a geographical entity) that I can figure out is the fact that Taiwan is governed by ROC. Mababa 05:45, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no intention to further dispute on this topic. I would just want people to notice that when we bias against the western usage, we are actually creating POV. Since the western usage is so prevalent, as an encyclopedia, Wiki should enlist that definition as part of its inforation. The current NPOV policy gives the convenience of avoiding disputes at the expense of the point of view from a large portion of population on this earth. I am not sure if we can call this NPOV or if this conforms to NPOV. The fact that so many people uses the western usage Taiwan=ROC indicates the current policy is actaully a POV. Perhaps we should think of a way to modify the convention policy and include this common definition into the article without disturbing the historical facts. If the Chinese POV is more neutral than the western POV, then perhaps Taiwanese POV would be more neutral than Chinese POV. The fact is: in order to reach NPOV, all these POVs should be included. Mababa 06:43, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Copy and paste from what I posted at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria#The China-Taiwan mess :
Just a little bit of information. For people who are interested to know why it was so controversial about all these titles, you can read the following articles or sections and get some clues: Republic of China, Political status of Taiwan, Taiwan Province, Quemoy, Matsu Islands, Lienchiang, Taiping, People's Republic of China, Mainland China, Taiwan (as an island), Political divisions of China#Disputed province, Legal status of Taiwan, History of Taiwan, History of the Republic of China, Chinese civil war, Taiwan under Dutch rule, Administrative divisions of the Republic of China#Claims over mainland China and Mongolia, Template:WTO, Foreign relations of the Republic of China, UN General Assembly Resolution 2758, Taiwan Relations Act, China and the United Nations, Chinese Taipei, Chinese Taipei#Other references to Taiwan, China Airlines and Pratas Islands — Insta ntnood 09:42 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
Fukien Province — Insta ntnood 18:51 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
I guess if one doesn't know about the background of the ROC and Taiwan, she/he can hardly follow the arguments in this discussions. — Insta ntnood 18:22 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
I do agree that average readers may not be able to tell the differences, and I support having notices and redirects wherever appropriate and necessary (which is already the case for many articles). — Insta ntnood 18:51 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
Is it time to reach a solution? Shall we go on a poll? — Insta ntnood 23:06, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
It's a bullshit move. Republic of China is the nominal name of the government.
Before we vote, could someone clarify for me the difference between Formosa and Taiwan?
Also, Instantnood makes a good point about ROC vs. Taiwan. Having some interest in East Asia, I for one am familiar with the meaning of ROC (elected gov't on Taiwan/Formosa) and by the way, ROK (Republic of Korea = South Korea), but many English speakers may be unfamiliar with the alphabet soup.
As with Korea, we have rival governments both using (a) the word Republic and the name of the entire nation (like "Korea" or "China").
Wikipedia should not:
Wikipedia should:
I hope I have accurately stated Wikipedia policy, but if you don't think "Uncle Ed" is smart enough or honest enough to explain policy, then why not ask Jimbo? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 21:49, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria#The China-Taiwan mess regarding China-geo-stub and Taiwan-stub. — Insta ntnood 01:01 Mar 2 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
There are currently two competing styles for naming counties. Please vote for the one you prefer, or suggest an alternative. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 01:12, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
Type | char. | Normal | Disambiguate | |
---|---|---|---|---|
by location | by type | |||
Style A | 1 | Panxian 盘县 | Shexian, Anhui 歙县 | no example yet |
Shexian, Hebei 涉县 | ||||
>1 |
Fugou 扶沟县 Dachang 大厂回族自治县 |
no example yet | Poyang County 鄱阳县 | |
Lake Poyang 鄱阳湖 | ||||
Style B | 1 | Pan County 盘县 | She County, Anhui 歙县 | no example yet |
She County, Hebei 涉县 | ||||
>1 |
Fugou County 扶沟县 Dachang Hui Autonomous County 大厂回族自治县 ROC: Hsinchu County 新竹縣 |
no example yet | Poyang County 鄱阳县 | |
Lake Poyang 鄱阳湖 |
Style A is the style that is currently used (more or less) by provinces, autonomous regions, and cities of all levels (municipalities, prefecture-level, and county-level). In Chinese, these are 省、自治区、直辖市、地级市、县级市.
Style B is the style that is currently used (more or less) by counties and cities in Taiwan, prefectures, autonomous prefectures, leagues and banners, county-level districts, towns, townships, and so forth. In Chinese, these are 臺灣各縣市、地区、自治州、盟旗、市辖区、镇、乡.
Basically, county-level cities (县级市) go into Style A; county-level districts (市辖区) and banners (旗) go into Style B; so counties are where these two camps meet. (County-level "cities" really aren't that different from counties despite what the names seem to suggest.) So your help is needed in deciding which of the two camps counties should go into.
There's some discussion further up on this page about this topic already; you can refer to them before voting. -- [[User:Ran|ran (talk)]] 01:12, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
Put your votes below.
Put your votes below.
Continued at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Hong Kong people.27s name
It is only a dispute among you guys. Real linguists identify 14 languages under the family of Chinese languages, whereas Seiyap and Sunwui are regarded dialects under Cantonese or Yue. Please refer to Ethnologue for details.
The relationship between Cantonese and Mandarin to Chinese languages is like that of English and German to Germanic languages.
Scots is also in dispute for being a language on its own or a dialect of English. But on Wikipedia it is listed according to the definition of the linguists.
I'd like to establish some kind of convention on how to translate the word 王 (wáng). Some articles use "king" and some use "prince". I noticed that I contradicted myself in a short period of time recently, moving one page to King of Hongnong and another to Prince He of Changyi, so I'd like other people's opinions. My initial inclination would be to use "king" in the case of pre-Qin dynasty people, when the title was essentially the highest one available, and then use "prince" subsequently. However, I don't know what seems right to everybody else. - Nat Kraus e 11:51, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As Hong Kong and Macao continue to participate in various international activities as independent entities, and the governments of the two take care of all issues except national defense and diplomatic relations. PRC's ministries in Peking has no jurisdiction or administrative power over Hong Kong and Macao. Hong Kong and Macao are effectively operating as other entities. Therefore, wherever under a listing or grouping of countries and territories, "Hong Kong", "Macao" and "mainland China" should be listed under countries and territories, instead of "People's Republic of China", and "Hong Kong" and "Macao" shouldn't be listed under "People's Republic of China" or "Mainland China". In my opinion this will be a much more accurate, clear and easily-understandable description of the status quo, and avoid unnecessary confusions.
For international organisations or activities, Hong Kong's and Macao's interests or participations are usually not prepresented by the delegations from PRC. The names used to join or participate, by Hong Kong and Macao (such as "Hong Kong, China" at WTO, APEC and Olympic), should be used instead og "Hong Kong". "Mainland China" would be a more proper description.
For the Republic of China on Taiwan, Pescadores, Quemoy, Matsu, Pratas and numerous islands, it would be better to be referred as "[[Republic of China|Republic of China (Taiwan)]]", "[[Republic of China|Taiwan, Republic of China]]", or "[[Republic of China|Taiwan, ROC]]", to avoid confusions and unnecessary disputes. Republic of China (Taiwan) should not be listed under PRC or mainland China, and should be listed with other countries and territories. -- December 8, 2004 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Hong Kong and Macao and Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Republic of China / Taiwan
The Chinese names included in items related to Hong Kong, Macao and the ROC (Taiwan) should be in traditional Chinese characters. For Hong Kong and Macao, the Cantonese pronunciation in IPA should be included, and for Taiwan, the Mandarin pronunciation in Tongyong, together with Hanyu Pinyin. The English name should be consistence with the official ones by the corresponding governments (HKSAR Govt, MSAR Govt, governments of municipalities, counties or provincial cities for the ROC) or commonly known among the local people, if it commonly known versions are more widely accepted than the official ones. -- December 8, 2004 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Hong Kong and Macao and Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Republic of China / Taiwan
A section about NPOV cannot contain POV statements:
Anyone may agree or disagree with the above points of view. But they are just that: points of view (POV), which have been the subject of sharp debate over decades. And phrasing that seems to imply that it is official Wikipedia policy to take one particular political stance on such issues is even more problematic.
These sentences should simply be omitted entirely; this section can get its point across (the need to be neutral on cross-straits issues) without them.
Also, the Republic of China's claim of sovereignty over Mainland China is purely pro forma; no one today seriously presses this claim. It's just a chip in games of diplomatic poker. In English usage, the Republic of China today is always referred to as such, either in full or by the abbreviation ROC; the word "China" alone in reference to current events and situations never refers to the Republic of China.
Thus the usage "of China", "in China", "China's" is preferable to insisting on the cumbersome use of "People's Republic of China" in every possible context. This reflects the usage of English-language news media and everyday conversational usage, and is consistent with the policy on using common names. In the news media and everyday usage, a phrase like "China's economy" always refers to the PRC's economy.
Usage of "People's Republic of China" isn't incorrect, obviously, but should only be really necessary in limited contexts, primarily in some but not all political and historical contexts.
-- Curps 05:21, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. ROC's claim over mainland China has already been forgotten in the ashes. No one seriously take that any more. One comment: In English usage, the Republic of China today is always referred to as Taiwan. Not a single english media I have read, used Republic of China or abbreviation ROC. Perhap you wouldn't mind sharing your news source you have been reading with us?? If PRC want's to be called China, why not? Then we shall let ROC to be called Taiwan at the same time. :) Mababa 06:03, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Comment: The real question is what is the definition of "China"? How many of those Cantonese-speaking immigrants and their descendants still holds the unrealistic and dreamy belief/delusion that ROC is the solely legitimate government of China? I doubt it would be many. ROC/Taiwan should be disengaged from China's definition a long time ago. To include Taiwan into the geographic definition of China is already a POV statement. If not, why shouldn't Mongolia, Vietnam, Korea being included as the geographical defined China? There is obvious political implication of it which has already been discussed in the political status of Taiwan. If Taiwan did not fall into ROC's hand, would it be considered as part of geographic of China at all?? Though there is discussion of the political dispute in the article China, the opening statment is still biased and insufficient. To include Taiwanese culture into the cultural definition of China is again another political POV. If not, why shouldn't we include Vietnam, Korea, and Japan into part of Chinese culture? Remember, before 1945, few people are fluent in Mandarin. Before the 16, 17 century, Taiwanese can only speak aboringinal language. Why not let China be China? PRC be China? We might argue that the mass media use the term China interchangable with PRC and Taiwan interchangable with ROC, isn't that the public view so that they pick the usage? Why's a encyclopedia dislodged or segregated from the public common knowledge? I would much agree that the current NPOV policy to be enforced; however, I would love to see a good discussion on the definition of "China," and perhaps find a new neutral point to disengage ROC from occupying the term "China", a term PRC deserves to be rewarded and solely enjoyed. Mababa 06:03, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that, even though many Taiwanese have assumed a Taiwanese identity, there are still many people carry the perception that ROC is part of China (here, we do not know what exactly it is or if it exists as a present tense or perhaps a past tense or a future tense). Therefore I have no intention to further dispute on it. Let's be open minded. The clear answer would only come out on the day when either unification occurs or independence is realized. The current NPOV convention policy give nice protection for both side so that no statements in Wiki should take side on either side. I am happy and amazed on how nice it works; and I actually do not seek a different definition of the term "China". However, practically, there is a clear need to direct China to PRC and thus the articles such as the politics of China exists which is dedicated solely to PRC, even though the usage of "China" does not comply with the NPOV convention. I am cool with that since it nicely serves the purpose for people looking for information on PRC and did not make political statement that ROC is part of it. In this arrangement, PRC's claim over Taiwan is still left neutral and was not damaged nor bolstered. Now, I would be even happier if the article political divisions of China and the aritcle province of China can follow that arrangement, leave ROC outside of the article and stop the current POV situation. Again, PRC's claim over Taiwan would nicely be kept intact. Though convention not accurately followed, for practical reasons, I would not further make any fuss as long as the article is not biased against Taiwan/ROC. Please comment on this proposal on the discussion page of political divisions of China. If this does not work, please give alternative suggestions that complies with the current NPOV policy or other creative solutions that do not bias against Taiwan/ROC. Many thanks. P.S. there are evidence/theories currently dispute whether a mass migration actually occurred after the 16th century. Mababa 01:04, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I suggest that something to the following effect be added to the naming conventions. This is not intended as a substantive change, only as clarification:
It's unnecessary, even undesirable according to the policy on original research, for us to attempt to define what "China" and "Taiwan" might mean in a political context. It's of course Ok to cite various opinions that have been formulated, but this is one issue that we can't, won't, and needn't solve.
Also note that this is not a matter to be treated lightly. In some contexts it is literally a matter of war and peace. For example, Article 4 of the ROC constitution provides that "[t]he territory of the Republic of China according to its existing national boundaries shall not be altered except by resolution of the National Assembly." Currently the ROC officially still claims sovereignty over the Chinese mainland. The official map of the ROC even has the pre-1949 external and provincial borders, as well as old names for provinces and cities. However, should the National Assembly decide that it's time to acknowledge that the ROC's territorial claims have been contradicted by reality for more than half a century and declare that the ROC's territory encompasses only Taiwan and the outlying islands currently controlled by the ROC, such a decision would likely be seen as a move toward independence.
As others have pointed out, the fact that most governments around the world use "China" to refer to the PRC is partly due to the PRC's foreign policy. There is an ongoing tug-of-war between the PRC and ROC over diplomatic relations, and the PRC has been insisting on being referred to as the sole representative of "China" as a pre-condition for diplomatic relations.
Finally, the issue of "common names" is not as simple as it may appear. We need to strike a balance between common usage on the one hand, and accuracy and consistency on the other. We cannot rely on "well, I've never heard of it before"-type arguments, nor can we rely on the mass media to provide answers. In the world described by the mass media, many specialized branches of science (say, polymer science) don't exist, all mathematicians are Fields Medal winners working on number theory, sushi is raw fish, all computer criminals are adolescent males, Africa consists of about a dozen countries along the northern coast and southern tip, etc. etc. In non-specialized discourse that is typical of the mass media, the word "Taiwan" may be sufficiently precise for most people; but our job should be not just to inform, but also to educate (yes, there is a difference) and to synthesize and reference specialized literature. And in those specialized contexts, "common usage" is quite different from mass media "common usage". -- MarkSweep 10:27, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It is quite interesting that the ROC constitution was used as the basis for us to decide on the usage of these terms. Since it has been brought up, I think people should also be made aware of the fact that the ROC constitution initially did not include Taiwan into ROC and the National Assembly did not ever make any resolution to annex Taiwan into ROC territory either. Thus, it was illegal for ROC to claim Taiwan sovereignty. [2] Yes, I do agree that ROC and Taiwan should be separated and should not be interchangable for the sake of formality. If we failed to do so, we will be helping ROC claiming sovereignty over Taiwan. This being said; Taiwan, as a geogrphical entity, deserves the same level of treatment as the term "China", as a geogrphical entity. I do not see any reason why Taiwan can not have articles on economy, politics and demographics since China seemed to have everything, being a geographical entity. Mababa 06:25, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Going back to the point made at the top of this section, we really can't have a statement making those POV statements. Nor should we have a requirement that Wikipedia reports certain topics in a way which we know to be factually incorrect. This part of the naming convention should be removed post haste, jguk 13:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The most important thing about a Wikipedia article is that it should be readily understandable to as many people as possible. We should think of the readers and not confuse them. I am not alone in never hearing of the term ROC before coming on Wikipedia - certainly where I am it is very rarely, if indeed at all, used. Also it seems to be a political charged term - I'm sure the Beijing government does not recognise a "Republic of China" - so using this term is likely to be POV anyway.
But my main point is there is a word, "Taiwan", that everyone understands. Tiny complexities in Taiwanese politics may be worthy of note in an article - but please keep those niceties to the text. Articles should be named using the word "Taiwan" alone - with the only exception being where it is clearly wholly inappropriate (eg it is specifically about the ROC as opposed to Taiwan). I can think of only two exceptions - the articles on "Republic of China" and on "Flag of the Republic of China" - I doubt there are many other exceptions.
So - please think of the reader and use terms that they will understand jguk 20:55, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Note: The purposal by Instantnood was, apparently, opposed by numerous people who did not refer to the Naming convention.
The discussion for List of Taiwan-related topics (by category) → List of Republic of China-related topics (by category) is here.
Instantnood, can we solidify some of the discussions so we're not looking at many pieces of discussion, i.e. have a place where -all- of the arguments can be placed at once? —
Penwhale 01:27, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The following pages were nominated on
WP:RM for moving.
The nominations are to make the titles of these articles to conform with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)#Political NPOV: " the word "Taiwan" should not be used if the term "Republic of China" is more accurate. ".
The suggested move is way too controversial and does not reflect true usage of the word Taiwan. If you want to say Republic of China refers to the polity that ruled China for awhile and now is on Taiwan, then none of your moves make sense. You think Economy of the Republic of China should include a historical section about China and then talk about Taiwan? Makes no sense whatsoever.-- 160.39.195.88 22:53, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
List of Taiwan-related topics (by category), List of Taiwan-related topics and Geography of Taiwan are nominated on WP:RM separately from the ones above, for the possibility to be cleaned up rather than moved.
See also the precedants of the move requests of Template:Politics of Taiwan, Politics of Taiwan, Category:Taiwanese political parties and List of metropolitan areas in Taiwan. — Insta ntnood 21:25 Feb 27 2005 (UTC)
Penwhale, I guess highway system will perhaps be the most controversial one. We did have a debate on List of metropolitan areas in Taiwan at WP:RM. This one on highway system could be comparable. It talks about "national highways". I also asked if "township highways" are found in the two Fukien counties. — Insta ntnood 09:31 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
But still, like the discussion on metropolitan areas, it involves the designation and policies of the central government of the ROC, and highways that are national. — Insta ntnood 15:14 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
Much of this let's move everything to ROC approach appears to be borne out of not really understanding what people mean by Taiwan. From what I can tell it has two (perhaps three) meanings:
Those advocating a move to ROC are forgetting not only that it is a little-used term, but are also ignoring the second meaning listed above.
There is nothing unusual about meaning 2. Take the example of France, which most people would take in most instances as being Metropolitan France. However, in some contexts, such as "Guadeloupe is part of France", meaning 2 clearly takes precedence. We see this elsewhere "Jersey" could mean the island of Jersey, or it could mean all the other little islands governed by Jersey. And similarly for many other places.
Please note that "Taiwan" is therefore the most appropriate terminology to use in almost all cases. It is the term that most people use and understand. ROC is little used (not at all from what I've seen in the UK) and should be reserved only for those articles where Taiwan in its extended second meaning is not appropriate. This is only fair on the reader - who should not be confused! It also means we do not need to get into discussions about the POV nature of using the term "ROC" - I bet if I asked the Chinese Embassy for guidance that they would tell me that no such thing exists in international law, jguk 13:12, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You clearly haven't been paying very close attention. The ROC province of Taiwan is the island of Taiwan minus the municipalities of Taipei and Kaohsiung. Also, your second definition of Taiwan is what is in dispute - those in favor of the moves are contending that the "areas ruled by the government in Taipei" cannot be properly referred to as "Taiwan". At any rate, the term "Republic of China" is simply not little used. When you remove all references to "People's Republic of China", there are still 1.5 million hits for "Republic of China." There are also about two million hits for ROC +Taiwan. So that's about 3.5 million hits, although there's probably some overlap. Of course, there are many more for Taiwan, but that is beside the point. As for not being used at all in Britain, well... [3], there's that. Your France exammple, at any rate, is flawed. The government which rules over Guadaloupe is called the French Republic, or France. As such, it is not in any sense inaccurate to say that Guadaloupe is part of France, while acknowledging that it is also not part of metropolitan France. Same deal for Jersey and all the other examples you cite. The point here is that the government which rules Quemoy and Matsu, and is based on Taiwan, does not call itself "Taiwan". It calls itself the "Republic of China". Furthermore, the PRC also does not consider these islands to be part of their (notional) province of Taiwan - rather, they are considered to be part of the mainland provinces. So, it would seem, neither the ROC nor the PRC consider Quemoy and Matsu to be part of Taiwan. It is only a lazy western media which uses "Taiwan" as shorthand for "Republic of China" that does so. Of course, there are political reasons for this, and, indeed, to use ROC is to accept the ROC's own POV. However, there is no choice but to be POV, as there is no NPOV option - we have to call it something, and it makes more sense to call it by the name it calls itself, and the name by which those countries which do recognize it refer to it as, rather than a constructed name made up by western countries that want to be able to deal with the ROC while maintaining relations with the PRC have come up with. The question of whether the country should become the "Republic of Taiwan" is a controversial one within Taiwan itself, and the idea that we should pander to this because people from Britain might be confused by what is a perfectly common usage is absurd. Especially since our Republic of China article explains pretty clearly what exactly is going on. john k 16:04, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just to give a further example of why "ROC" is often preferred, here's an excerpt from President of the Republic of China:
This acknowledges the existence of the terminology that jguk and others have encountered in the Western mass media, and at the same time points out why that terminology is not used by those directly affected. I believe this article addresses everyone's concerns: the article title uses the correct official title of the ROC president, while still pointing out the common Western usage. It is also easy for anyone to find, because President of Taiwan redirects to President of the Republic of China. Most of the issues of "common usage" can be resolved in a similar fashion without having to sacrifice accuracy. -- MarkSweep 20:35, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
JG's entire argument revolves around the oft-repeated, but never-explained, claim that "most English-speakers can easily understand the second meaning of "Taiwan" outlined above. They can't understand ROC." He has yet to demonstrate how the terms Republic of China/ROC, which appear in millions of webpages, are not comprehensible to English-speakers. So far his only arguments seem to consist of glorifications of his own ignorance (his lack of knowledge of our policy on Ireland only confirms this). john k 05:35, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Another silly statement from JG: "Where a polity is mostly based on one island it is common practice that the name of the island is used for the name of the polity too." Do we call the Dominican Republic "Hispaniola"? The reason that "when a polity is mostly based on one island" that island name is usually used for the polity as well is because most such polities call themselves after that island, with the Republic of Ireland, Sri Lanka, Cuba, Saint Lucia, and so forth as examples. Also, because the name of the polity often becomes the name of the island in such circumstances. Thus, the island we used to call Ceylon we now call Sri Lanka, because this is the name of the polity on the island. Obviously, the ROC's presence on Taiwan isn't going to mean that the island starts to be called "China," and it also continues to choose not to call itself "Taiwan". So this whole line of argument is completely irrelevant. john k 05:42, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just to note, re: Great Britain, that we have, in the past, had arguments over the very question of when it is appropriate to use "Great Britain". The conclusion reached, I believe, was that "Britain" (and "British", of course) is an acceptable short hand for the UK, but that "Great Britain" is not, referring only to the island of Great Britain, and should only be used for the 1707-1800 period. john k 21:02, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A year ago, there was a proposal, expressed in terms of revolutionary organisations, to "call the group what it calls itself". The ensuing discussion for this proposal, which was rejected, can sill be read at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (common_names)#Proposed policy on names of groups. I find one comment particularlty interesting:
The proposal is in fact a highly PoV one, rather than a reduction of PoV. It is not only PoV in intent, by assuming and validating the extreme PoVs that
- most English-speakers are sheep at the mercy of corporate media, and
- educated humans forget easily that a name is just a verbal tag and carries no information about the thing it names.
It also is PoV in effect, serving to impede recollection of what a reader already knows (or believes -- and don't forget that the difference is their business, not ours) about less visible groups. This favors the PoVs of fringe groups over mainstream ones, since smaller ones are much more likely to have their alienating past obscured by our use of an obscure name that has not passed the muster of the market place of ideas.
This is not, BTW, a matter applying just to groups the size of sects (whether religious or political). For instance, if any significant number of Americans could remember the obscure names of the highly significant PRK, The West Wing would never discuss the "Republic of North Korea". -- Jerzy (t) 23:10, 2004 Mar 4 (UTC)
Susvolans (pigs can fly) 17:56, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I think what Penwhale said is right. Both ROC and Taiwan as a political entity are very POV. Even though ROC government has yet officially renounce its claim over mainland China, this claim has been unofficially dropped. The ROC officials frequently used the term "Taiwan" to refer the current government. Here, two contradictory POVs have already generated within the government. Let's look at the UN charter: Article 23.1. The Security Council shall consist of fifteen Members of the United Nations. The Republic of China, France...... [4]. According to the UN charter, the PRC is sitting on the security council under the name of ROC. Therefore, (legally, perhaps?) PRC=ROC. Here is another POV. Many Taiwanese believe in the popular sovereingty theory equates ROC to Taiwan. (e.g. Chen Shui-Bian) Many Taiwanese rejects Chinese sovereignty distinguish Taiwan from ROC.(e.g. Lee Tung-hui) Many Taiwanese believes in Chinese sovereignty (e.g. James Soong) belives ROC=China>Taiwan. There are also politicians doesn't seem to have strong opinion.(e.g. Lien Chien) So three POVs among Taiwanese. PRC's citizens might think ROC does not exist any more. Western mass media calls the political entity on Taiwan island, Taiwan. Which one should we represent? Please remember that even though we are supposed to present the most accurate information to the readers, on topics like this, the best we can do is to present the neutral infomation that is the more inclusive than suppressing others. Is any of the definition of ROC-Taiwan relationship above factual? Are we suppose to difine it? Isn't that rejecting the western common usage also an POV?
Moreover, how do we know that the term "Taiwan" does not change its definition? Looking at the dictionary in Princteon, Taiwan could be used to refer the goverment controlling the island Taiwan [5]. Are we the ones to prejedice against the definition of Taiwan which is commonly used in the world? If so, why don't we just write this encyclopedia in Latin? No one is saying that ROC is a unrecognizable term, people are only saying the term is confusing and the term Taiwan is more representitive for the political entity than the term "Republic of China."
Of course, as an encyclopedia, the articles should reveal the most correct information to the readers. Presenting all these different POVs is never a problem. The only question is what definition should we follow for the title of the article? And also should everything about Taiwan island to be under the title XXX of ROC because it is controlled by this Chinese regime or should we put them under the title XXX of Taiwan since Taiwan is an cultural/geographical entity? Example: the debates in Geography of Taiwan.
In my opinion, we should choose the word that helps people looking for their information in the title. The NPOV could be worked out in the article.
Moreover, it is debatable that Taiwan is not part of China since it is currently adminitrated by a Chinese regime which arguably in exile and does not have legal sovereignty over the island. If we separate the political entity of ROC from the geographical entity, Taiwan, then should we also withdraw Taiwan (as a geographical entity) from China (as a geographical entity)? The only reason for Taiwan to be included in to China(as a geographical entity) that I can figure out is the fact that Taiwan is governed by ROC. Mababa 05:45, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have no intention to further dispute on this topic. I would just want people to notice that when we bias against the western usage, we are actually creating POV. Since the western usage is so prevalent, as an encyclopedia, Wiki should enlist that definition as part of its inforation. The current NPOV policy gives the convenience of avoiding disputes at the expense of the point of view from a large portion of population on this earth. I am not sure if we can call this NPOV or if this conforms to NPOV. The fact that so many people uses the western usage Taiwan=ROC indicates the current policy is actaully a POV. Perhaps we should think of a way to modify the convention policy and include this common definition into the article without disturbing the historical facts. If the Chinese POV is more neutral than the western POV, then perhaps Taiwanese POV would be more neutral than Chinese POV. The fact is: in order to reach NPOV, all these POVs should be included. Mababa 06:43, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Copy and paste from what I posted at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria#The China-Taiwan mess :
Just a little bit of information. For people who are interested to know why it was so controversial about all these titles, you can read the following articles or sections and get some clues: Republic of China, Political status of Taiwan, Taiwan Province, Quemoy, Matsu Islands, Lienchiang, Taiping, People's Republic of China, Mainland China, Taiwan (as an island), Political divisions of China#Disputed province, Legal status of Taiwan, History of Taiwan, History of the Republic of China, Chinese civil war, Taiwan under Dutch rule, Administrative divisions of the Republic of China#Claims over mainland China and Mongolia, Template:WTO, Foreign relations of the Republic of China, UN General Assembly Resolution 2758, Taiwan Relations Act, China and the United Nations, Chinese Taipei, Chinese Taipei#Other references to Taiwan, China Airlines and Pratas Islands — Insta ntnood 09:42 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
Fukien Province — Insta ntnood 18:51 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
I guess if one doesn't know about the background of the ROC and Taiwan, she/he can hardly follow the arguments in this discussions. — Insta ntnood 18:22 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
I do agree that average readers may not be able to tell the differences, and I support having notices and redirects wherever appropriate and necessary (which is already the case for many articles). — Insta ntnood 18:51 Mar 4 2005 (UTC)
Is it time to reach a solution? Shall we go on a poll? — Insta ntnood 23:06, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
It's a bullshit move. Republic of China is the nominal name of the government.
Before we vote, could someone clarify for me the difference between Formosa and Taiwan?
Also, Instantnood makes a good point about ROC vs. Taiwan. Having some interest in East Asia, I for one am familiar with the meaning of ROC (elected gov't on Taiwan/Formosa) and by the way, ROK (Republic of Korea = South Korea), but many English speakers may be unfamiliar with the alphabet soup.
As with Korea, we have rival governments both using (a) the word Republic and the name of the entire nation (like "Korea" or "China").
Wikipedia should not:
Wikipedia should:
I hope I have accurately stated Wikipedia policy, but if you don't think "Uncle Ed" is smart enough or honest enough to explain policy, then why not ask Jimbo? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 21:49, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria#The China-Taiwan mess regarding China-geo-stub and Taiwan-stub. — Insta ntnood 01:01 Mar 2 2005 (UTC)