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- History
- This section should briefly describe the history of intelligence testing and how it has been applied to the issue of race. This should not attempt to be a history of the debate: that will be covered below.
- Group differences in measures of intelligence
- The introduction to this section should discuss those factors which are generally recognized as affecting the development of intelligence in individuals and explain the concept of heritability. The general idea here is to set up the key points in the discussion of between-group comparisons. The question of suitability should also be treated here, along with an appropriate rebuttal.
- Data gathering methods
- This sub-section should discuss the kinds of tests used to measure intelligence as well as the criteria used to determine race. Any general, non-controversial shortcomings these methods have should be mentioned here. This section should focus on SIRE as the most common variable for race and IQ (or some other psychometric score) as the most common variable for intelligence.
- Intelligence test score results
- This sub-section should present the results of intelligence testing on racial groups. Intended here is preliminary, "uncontrolled" testing, i.e. not the kind that takes place in a controlled study such as the MTAS. In its final paragraph, this sub-section should also describe the so-called "Flynn effect", though discussion of potential causation should be omitted until the next sub-section.
- Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups
- This sub-section should discuss those factors which may influence the development of intelligence in groups. Each factor, such as:
- Health and Nutrition (self-explanatory)
- Rearing conditions (e.g. transracial adoption studies, some twin studies, etc.)
- Socioeconomic environment (self-explanatory)
- Education (e.g. length of education, quality of education, etc.)
- Discrimination (e.g. discrimination in education, caste-like minorities, etc.)
- Stereotypical behaviour (e.g. "stereotype threat")
- Geographic ancestry (e.g. studies comparing the ratio of African/European ancestry to IQ)
- Physiology (biological coordinates related to physiology, e.g. brain size, etc.)
- Neuropsychology (biological coordinates related to neuropsychology, e.g. neural density, speed and efficiency of neural information processing, etc.)
- Genetics (e.g. molecular genetics studies, etc.)
- should be listed under its own heading, with the main studies on that factor briefly discussed along with any pertinent criticism of those studies. Notice there is no grouping into "environmental" or "hereditarian" research here - just research on factors potentially affecting the development of intelligence in groups.
- Significance of group IQ differences
- The scope and depth of this section is yet to be finalized. It's inclusion is pending review of a proposed outline describing it's content and scope.
- Interpretations
- The introduction to this section should present the history of the debate beginning with Jensen's paper in the late 60's and extending through the debates of the 90's. The key papers which emerged during this period should be briefly summarized. The purpose here is to orient the reader in the current state of the debate and to make clear that there are at least four positions taken by experts.
- Environmental interpretations
- This sub-section should make a coherent presentation of the environmentalist argument, i.e. that all of the difference in test scores between groups can be accounted for by appealing primarily or exclusively to environmental factors. The key supporters, such as Nisbett and Ceci, and their arguments should be presented, and their work should be criticised where appropriate.
- Hereditarian interpretations
- This sub-section should make a coherent presentation of the hereditarian argument, i.e. that the difference in test scores between groups is to be accounted for by a mixture of environmental and genetic factors. The key supporters, such as Jensen and Rushton, and their arguments should be presented, and their work should be criticised where appropriate. (The 100% genetic interpretation is pretty fringe, and I don't know of any experts currently holding this position, thus it does not have its own section. If literature can be found on it, however, it should certainly be included.)
- Official statements
- This section should present the position taken by bodies of experts in official statements such as that of the APA and the AAA. To be fair, the paper Mainstream Science on Intelligence should also be discussed despite its not being an "official" statement, as it was signed by a rather large body of qualified experts and does not differ substantially from the APA report.
Ludwigs2 08:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
This is mostly based on Aryman's outline, which had relatively broad approval in the discussion above. I have made the following changes to it (based on other editors comments, and my own discretion - those editors will be mentioned in brackets). -- Ludwigs2 08:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC) Changes
Questions
Suggestions
let's take a day or two to debate some of the fine points of the outline, but I'd like to give David the go-ahead to start revising on sunday or monday.
please place your comments below. -- Ludwigs2 08:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
If that’s really what Aprock meant, then I’m fine with this outline as the first draft, and I think we’re ready to begin editing the article. I would have preferred to hear this from Aprock himself, but after looking around a bit it seems that we now have a time limit of two weeks before this mediation case is shut down by an external decision, so I guess I shouldn’t delay our progress with the article in any way that can be avoided.
So in other words:
Support, assuming that your explanation of Aprock’s meaning is accurate.
I just hope we can resolve the rest of our questions about this article before the two-week time limit expires. Even though we’ve resolved a lot, there still are a few more points left to resolve, such as the structure of the “significance” section. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 21:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
If by significance you mean practical significance then re-read the "effect size" stuff I posted. ES is all about practical significance. Over and under-representation of minorities on many variables that are important to well-being can be calculated rather accurately by appeal to ES and bell curves.
Bpesta22 ( talk) 23:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Sending this out for editing into mainspace. I think this outline has a sufficient level of approval to begin editing it into mainspace. I'll copy it as is over to David.Kane's talk page and he can begin work on it. I'll post back when I get some idea of the time frame invloved. -- Ludwigs2 16:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
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I posted a few paragraphs of support in that complaint thread linked above (both pro Ludwig and technofaye) but I must have screwed something up as it seem to not have posted. I can retype it, if you all think that would be helpful (I think closing this now is stupid, and it seems like we're close to fleshing out the outline).
BP
Bpesta22 ( talk) 19:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Use this section for comments and discussion of the 4/1/2010 draft. Participants should follow the mediation rules given in the #Initiation of Mediation section at the top of the page. Please comment here before making any substantive changes to the draft itself - the goal is to make consensus-based modifications to the draft as they arise, so that we achieve a version that has broad acceptance. The draft is finished, please feel free to comment.
-- Ludwigs2 18:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
META: Guys, perhaps we should sign our contributions at the end of each coherent point instead of at the end of a long speech, so others can reply to individual points without breaking up someone else's message into disjointed, unsigned pieces. This also prevents the edit conflicts which plague anyone editing for more than 30 seconds.'
TechnoFaye Kane 21:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
This article, as written, directly contradicts current mainstream opinion in the matter as published in the main academic journal on the subject and a letter of mainstream opinion signed by 52 published, authoritative experts in this specific field. [redacted]
As an example, look at the list of factors.
[redacted] TechnoFaye Kane 21:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
ANOTHER CONCERN: The scientific issues are not black and white. They're black, white and Asian. I think it's important to keep that in mind, particularly since the Asian dominance of IQ scores not only refutes the charge of the research being "white supremacist", but more importantly demonstrates that the IQ difference between races is REAL. Dr. Rushton stated that more formally:
ONE MORE NOTE: I think that Dr. Pesta should review the final article and wherever he says ""Uhhh, no WAY!", we should alter it. For instance, statements describing what beliefs are mainstream is one example of where the disease of POV might infect this article via the vector of "consensus". TechnoFaye Kane 05:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with TF that there's enough data on Asian IQ that it really needs to be included here. It indeed helps to rule out simplistic explanations like the researchers are racist (unless one then assumes a conspiracy theory wherein the racists are using the higher mean Asian IQ temporarily to divert attention away from their arguments re black versus white). Also, any explanation for the difference needs to explain the three-way pattern.
I'm interested in peer-reviewing the complete product but I will wait til it's produced. Bpesta22 ( talk) 14:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Can you suggest a good citation for Asian, white, black IQ? Needs to be in the peer-reviewed literature. Thanks. David.Kane ( talk) 16:36, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Rushton and Jensen; see page 240
http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf Bpesta22 ( talk) 02:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
This belongs at the end. It is FAR less important than the current debate, both scientifically as well as in terms of what the reader is interested in when he comes here. TechnoFaye Kane 21:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Here are some of my concerns about this mediation, I echo Slrubenstein's comments on the ANI, since Ramdrake, Alun and T34CH aren't participating in the mediation, it has become less and less of a mediation between disputing parties. I don't see any progress and very little in terms of agreement between the disputing parties. If any agreement and consensus exists in this mediation, it is between like minded editors and not between disputing parties. Could anyone point to an explicit agreement or consensus between myself and either Occam Varoon, Mikemikev or even TechnoFaye. We may have agreed on non-actionable issues, but not on any single proposal. The mediator In my interactions with the mediator, Ludwigs, I have found no bias in his one-to-one interactions with myself or with other editors. I think he has been consistent and dedicated to this mediation. He has considered all viewpoints in his decisions. However, I do have a number of concerns. The three most important decisions in this mediation have been
All three of these decisions were favorable to supporters of the "genetic hypothesis". The question is not whether Ludwigs decisions have been biased, but whether they are deliberately or unknowingly biased. The fact that the three most important decisions have gone in favor of the genetic camp, clearly shows that this mediation has been one-way traffic and not really a mediation. It may be, that in order to placate those who opposed these proposals, Ludwigs has offered them a few crumbs, and leftovers , but he has still delivered the main course to the hereditarian crew who are seemingly quite happy about the mediation. Just to restate my position,
Wapondaponda ( talk) 21:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Muntuwandi, if you’re going to claim that the reason any of these three topics was decided in a way that you disagree with is because of Ludwig showing bias (intentional or unintentional) to one of the two positions about this topic, then I think you ought to re-read the discussions that resulted in these decisions. If you do, I think it’ll be clear that none of them were based on either favoritism towards one of the two groups, or even just a majority opinion.
In the case of the data-centric approach, this approach was approved by everyone in the mediation except you, including users such as Ramdrake, Aprock and Slrubenstein who favor the 100% environmental explanation for the IQ difference. Choosing this proposal over your own proposal was not a matter of favoring the “hereditarian” position over the “environmental” one; it was a matter of choosing the approach that the majority of users taking both perspectives were able to agree on, rather than the one that a single user was pressing for. Your claim that the data-centric approach will give undue weight to the hereditarian position is also quite strange—it will give more weight than the existing version of the article to the data itself, which is an idea that seems difficult to argue with since the data is something that both positions agree on, and they differ only in how they interpret it. But what has anyone here said to suggest that it will give more space to the hereditarian model than the existing article does?
In the case of whether the hereditarian hypothesis is “fringe” or not, this is not something that can be resolved based on the preferences of editors the way the article’s structure can. Wikipedia has a specific definition of what constitutes a fringe theory, and either this theory fits its definition or it doesn’t, regardless of what any of us think. Another relevant point is the criteria for determining consensus in a discussion, which does not depend on the agreement of 100% of the users involved in that discussion, but on the points raised in that discussion and whether or not they’ve been addressed. Whichever way you look at the debate we had over the WP:FRINGE issue, there’s only one conclusions it can be considered to have reached: Varoon Arya carefully explained how in all respects this theory did not meet Wikipedia’s definition of a fringe theory, and all users who supported the 100% environmental perspective either agreed with him or had nothing to say in response.
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You belong to the latter category. Even though you were active in the mediation during and after that debate, you’ve never attempted to address VA’s explanation of how Wikipedia policy does not allow us to treat this hypothesis as a fringe theory. Despite the fact that you personally don’t like this decision, your lack of any response to the points it was based on is in itself a tacit admission that you have no argument against this interpretation of Wikipedia policy. In a situation like this one, there’s only one appropriate interpretation of which way consensus has gone, regardless of who we have as a mediator. The reason all of us have had so much trouble coming to agreements with you isn’t because we aren’t willing to compromise; the compromises we’ve made with Ramdrake, Slrubenstein and Aprock should be enough to show that we are. If it’s true that you’ve never agreed with us about anything, it’s been because of a combination of two things. One is that you’ve very rarely been willing to engage in discussions that could result in compromise, which would require listening to the other side, and being prepared to back down about certain points if your argument for what you want is shown to be flawed. And the other reason is that you seem very reluctant to accept the outcome of anything we’ve decided already, even if it’s been clearly shown that it’s the only possible outcome consistent with Wikipedia policy. If you’re unwilling to accept these decisions on a personal level, that’s your own prerogative, but we can only cater to your preferences if those preferences are consistent with the goals of Wikipedia. |
-- Captain Occam ( talk) 23:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm willing to agree with any editor on anything, provided sufficient reason can be given in support of any objection s/he may raise or of any course of action s/he may suggest. I agree with Muntuwandi in that I would not choose the phrase "The hereditarian hypothesis is not “fringe”, either by Wikipedia’s standards or any other standard" to summarize the resolution of the "fringe" issue, and I agree with the reasoning given. I suggested a rewording, and Ludwigs modified the statement yet again to reflect his view of the overall consensus on the matter. If editors provide sufficient reason for changing the current resolution, I'm sure Ludwigs will modify the statement accordingly. -- Aryaman (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Not to worry, I am not too bothered by hard direct talk, as long as it is about activities within Wikipedia. Occam, could you provide links to where Slrubenstein and Ramdrake explicitly agreed with the data-centric model. I didn't see their opinions in the straw-poll. Out of the editors who are not part of the "hereditarian group", only A.Prock and myself participated. Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal states: The Mediation Cabal is a bunch of volunteers providing unofficial, informal mediation for disputes on Wikipedia. We do not impose sanctions or make judgments. We are just ordinary Wikipedians who help facilitate communication and help parties reach an agreement. It is my understanding, that the Mediator's role is not to help create a new article, but rather to help those parties that disagree to agree or make comprises. For mediation to work, the potential for an agreement between disputing parties must exist, at the same time some obstacle would exist that prevents this agreement from taking place. It is the mediator's role to try to eliminate this obstacle in order to facilitate agreements between the disputing parties. The mediator has done his job, if he or she has tried to understand both sides of the dispute and made efforts to make both sides understand each others' point of view. The mediation is a success if disputing parties reach an agreement. I think the mediator and many parties in this mediation have focused on creating a new article, not on getting agreements. Ludwigs states, I will say, that I think the decision about the so-called genetic hypothesis not being fringe seems appropriate to me. The more extreme positions of that approach may be fringe (I'm sure we'll have some commentary on that point) but the general idea appears with enough frequency in the scholarly literature that it would be inappropriate under NPOV to dismiss the whole range of research that deals with it as fringe. This is a reasonable assessment, but isn't the mediator passing judgment. The mediator is entitled to his own opinion, and being an editor like anyone else can express his opinions. But the mediator shouldn't impose decisions or opinions. In order for the fringe statement to pass it should have individuals from both sides of the dispute voluntarily agreeing with the statement. The mediator stated that there was no consensus for a data-centric article, but that the writer should go with a data-centric article anyway. Once again the mediator has suggested a course of action that lacks voluntary agreement from the disputing parties. The mediator chose to go with one outline over another, but gave no reason for doing so. Once again this feels like passing judgment. AFAIK, there is no still no voluntary agreement from disputing parties concerning the outline. From my perspective the above issues have not been resolved and therefore I object to the current direction the mediation is taking. This includes whatever David Kane is writing. I agree with Occam in that unanimity is not a requirement for consensus, so my objections may not be important. However, the fact there is little explicit support for the current proceedings from other editors not in the "hereditarian group" remains an issue. Wapondaponda ( talk) 21:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Mathsci recently made a comment reflecting one of his central concerns regarding this article/mediation over at AN/I, i.e. that it is "built on a faulty premise". It's worth bringing up here because other editors might share this concern. As I understood it, the reasoning behind Mathsci's concern is as follows:
There is no evidence whatsoever that any departments in major universities where there is specialisation in psychometry (eg the Centre for Psychometry in the University of Cambridge) spend any time at all producing research in this area.
This surprised me, because I remembered reading that James R. Flynn is a Distinguished Associate at Cambridge's Psychometrics Centre. So, I checked up on their website, and found that, of the six points listed in summary of their areas of Research & Development, two read:
For a research department which spends "no time at all producing research in this area", Cambridge's Psychometrics Centre appears to me to be doing a very poor job of it. But I didn't attend Cambridge. What the hell do I know? So, I took a look Cambridge's publications list. Unfortunately, the situation here is even less clear. Case in point: David J. Bartholomew's Measuring Intelligence: Facts and Fallacies published by Cambridge in 2004, in which he summarily states:
The fact that groups differ in average IQ is not, of itself, a source of great debate or division. The real bone of contention arises when it seems to point to differences in underlying mental ability. Does the black/white IQ difference in the United States, for example, indicate, in whole or part, a real difference originating in the genes or can it be wholly accounted for by environmental factors? The foregoing discussion should have made it clear that, in strict logic, no definite answer can be given to that question. It will always remain a possibility that there is some environmental factor which is so confounded with race that it cannot be distinguished from it. (pg. 122)
I'm relieved to see a good deal of congruence between Bartholomew's summary and the view of the APA as I understand it. But I'm bothered by the fact that Cambridge is publishing academic works discussing race and intelligence at such length when they are supposed to have no interest in this area at all. I've misunderstood something, obviously.
[redacted] But seeing as he is technically part of this mediation, and this concern of his does apply to this mediation, I thought it fair to mention this concern and discuss it here with other concerned editors, provided other editors can point me in the right direction. -- Aryaman (talk) 08:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
-> Again, Varoon Arya, this seems like original research and synthesis. You are assembling a small set of individuals and making a huge claim. The simple fact is that the topic "race and intelligence" is not studied in any major universities. Individuals like Nicholas Mackintosh and James Nesbitt might comment in book reviews or popular books on the research of the small group of privately funded researchers around Rushton, Jensen and Lynn. However, it would be exceedingly undue and misleading to describe that as a "ongoing debate in academia". Almost all the research on psychometry involves quite different things. The Pioneer group might invoke some of aspects of this mainstream research in their own writings, but that is quite another thing. The Pioneer group is on the fringes of academia, if it is in academia at all.
Just to make my point more clearly, the Flynn effect is a mainstream piece of scientific research which stands on its own merits and does not seem controversial. It is a very general statement in psychometry. It isn't classified as part of the non-existent academic subject of race and intelligence.
As I wrote at the beginning of mediation, requested originally by Ramdrake, endlessly debating issues like this, which do not rely on written sources, is entirely the wrong way to proceed in editing wikipedia articles. Why pretend that what has been a debate in the media and amongst policy makers has been going on in the academic world? That is an obvious fallacy and distortion. Most respected academics wouldn't touch this topic with a barge pole.
I have another issue related to this point. The article Mainstream Science on Intelligence was extensively rewritten by you to remove all criticisms. When you wrote it, you were aware of a critical letter to a journal by leading anthroplogists discussed by me on the R&I talk page. Neutral editing would have involved including in the article a reference to that and other criticism. That is not how the article reads. It is not an academic article but a letter to the WSJ by a self-chosen group of individuals, some receiving support from the Pioneer Fund. To use such a letter to a newspaper as support for the existence of ongoing debate in academia on "race and intelligence" would be equally invalid (I don't know whether that is or was your intention). The letter was drafted by a well-known advisor to policy makers in the USA. It belongs to the political and media sphere despite its claim to represent "mainstream science". As a research scientist myself, in the university world academic mainstream science is represented by institutions like the National Science Foundation, the Royal Society and the CNRS, not by a self-chosen group of signatories of a letter to the WSJ.
But again this kind of talk page debate does not seem helpful. It is a misuse of this page as a WP:FORUM. Writing wikipedia articles depends solely on locating the best secondary sources directly related the topic. The task of wikipedians is then accurately to summarise those sources in the article, using inline citations, particularly when the corresponding statements are controversial. Using primary sources, such as "data", is against policy. It seems to be happening here at the moment [redacted] . In other words, when there is a clear mainstream point of view, that should be made abundantly clear in the article, particularly the lede. Not doing so contradicts WP:NPOV. In this case it would amount to a group of editors selecting the "facts" themselves (i,e. the truth) and then letting the reader make up his/her own mind about which theory - hereditarian or evolutionary - is more convincing as an explanation of those facts.
At the moment the current article looks like a "pick and mix" stall at a sweet shop: should I buy environmental or should I buy hereditarian? (Quite off-topic but seasonal, I recommend Marks and Spencer's delicious "speckled eggs", particularly for the young.) Mathsci ( talk) 12:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Although prejudice and stereotyping concerning the superiority of one race over another exist in many countries, the academic debate on the connection between intelligence and race, especially as measured through IQ, has been most vigorous in the USA and the UK. (pg. 250)
(A version of this comment also appears on the article talk page.)
I have finished my two days (plus two hours) of work on the rewrite. Comments:
I will leave it to other editors to judge whether or not this version, taken as a whole, is superior to the previous one. I look to the mediator for discussion about where we go from here. David.Kane ( talk) 14:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I will be rewriting the article from 8:00 AM EDT March 30 until 8:00 AM EDT April 1. Comments:
1) I have explained twice over the last few months ( [1] and [2]), I am happy to have anyone else but me do this. No one else has volunteered. So, it looks like I am the one. Fel free to criticize, but do keep in mind that I did not seek out this role.
2) My only requirement, given that I am about to spend 2 days of my life on this project, is that the version that I come up with serve as the basis for future changes. (Obviously, any editor can change any aspect of what I write. But no editor can say, "I don't like this version, so there is no consensus, so I revert to the version of January 30, 2009." If you disagree with that plan, speak up now. No one has complained about this prerequisite when I have brought it up before.)
3) As I have mentioned before, I am not a fan of the data-centric approach nor of this outline. Indeed, I purposely made zero comments about it. That said, I am a big believer in building consensus, so I will do my best with what is there.
4) Request to Ludwig: Would you mind archiving everything from the talk page except the outline (and any votes of support for that outline) and this comment? I think that this would clean things up in a helpful fashion.
5) Request to everyone else: Please make any suggestions, comments, additions you like to the outline now. I will not start up until tomorrow morning.
6) Request to all: Please allow me the freedom to give it my best shot over the next two days. If you don't like what you see then: a) Please wait till the end. perhaps I will fix it. b) Make a comment/suggestion on the talk page. But please note that I will probably not have the time to reply to such suggestions given all the work that I will be doing on the article but that I will be reading everything that is written.
My plan is to do my best for two days and then step back from the debate. If everyone loves the article that I produce, then great! If not, then I will leave it to others to decide the best ways to improve it going forward.
Wish me luck! David.Kane ( talk) 19:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
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And here we go! If uninvolved editors start reverting my edits, I hope that editors involved in this mediation will revert them. David.Kane ( talk) 12:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
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I'm just going to reiterate that I think the drafting and reviewing should not be done in main space. This seems like a fairly reasonable way of doing things, and I don't understand why it's meeting with such resistance. Having stubs and material that has not been reviewed by most of the mediators seems to go against what mediation is about. This is especially true since many of the editors had strong concerns about weight, content, and bias issues. It really seems like the process is moving in a direction that will essentially nullify the work of mediation. A.Prock ( talk) 00:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
My comments: Obviously you’re under no obligation to use them. If you do, feel free to polish up the writing. I usually like to rewrite stuff many times before I am happy with how it reads, and I don’t have time to do that here. I will add to this as I get time to review each section.
INTRO I think you need a more introductory sentence: “R&I involves debate over the cause of the ubiquitous finding that self reports of race (SIRE) co-vary (often strongly) with scores on Intelligence (IQ) tests.”
Then, I would keep the brief statement on the three way race pattern (report means, as you do) and mention that the data have been reported and replicated ad naseum (especially the black-white difference) going back to World War I. “Although no one disputes the fact that IQ scores differ across SIRE, the cause of these differences is currently unknown. Various hypotheses have been proposed, ranging from the invalidity of both IQ and race as scientific constructs (cites), to completely environmental explanations (cites), to those that posit a genetic basis for at least some part of the gap (cites).
As discussed below, the issue is as important as it is controversial. The purpose of this stub is to review the data on SIRE and IQ, and the evidence for and against various explanations researchers have proposed to explain the gap. I think the “scientifically meaningless” section, as it reads now, should be changed or go in some other area—it’s not really introductory in nature. It could be the very next section (one where terms are defined. What is an IQ score; what is race, as measured in this research, etc?).
HISTORY
This needs fleshing out. One could mention Gould’s archaic criticisms of IQ tests used in immigration and the military in the early and mid 1900s. If you do mention this, not everyone agrees that Gould’s caricature is accurate. I could provide some rebuttal citations.
The more modern era began with Jensen’s 1968 (?) article, and carried on with the Bell Curve, Mismeasure, the APA statement, and now many of the more recent popular books on the topic. More modern research also uses other measures of intelligence (beside the paper and pencil IQ test), including elementary cognitive tasks and various measures of brain size and function. One thing that’s noteworthy, throughout all this, many academics have retreated to their Ivory towers to do research read mostly only by other people in field. It’s this research, really, that defines what the field knows and doesn’t (It’s this research that needs to be explained).
The “group differences in measures of intelligence” section seems redundant and appears to be hanging by itself. Perhaps delete it and go right to the data-gathering section? If this is meant to be an upper-level heading for an outline, then I think it needs a short paragraph describing all of the lower-level heading points that will be discussed in the section.
More later.
p.s. I will have time to discuss reactions to my thoughts here, but not until I am done with reviewing it, so please be patient.
Bpesta22 ( talk) 18:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
First, I would like to say that overall the draft seems to be an improvement over the previous steady state. It's certainly not perfect, and some of the sections need to be fully written, but in general the size and scope of the article seems much more manageable, the information is more direct, and there isn't any strong leaning one way or the other.
Second, I'm running short on time today, so I haven't gotten a chance to check every reference, or finely parse every word. In that sense I reserve the right to give more comments both high level and low level.
Specific comments:
I'd like to thank David.Kane for working on this. There is still a lot of work to be done, but overall this is much better place to work from than the previous version.
From my perspective, I think the best way to proceed would be for David.Kane to incorporate the reviews as he sees fits. If he doesn't have time for that, I would certainly support nominating another editor to incorporate review feedback. According to the artificial timeline, we've got more than a week to improve what is there before grim hand of WP descends. I think it would be great if we could recruit as many of the editors signed up for mediation to review and or comment on the current version, especially relative to the steady state that the article was in previously. A.Prock ( talk) 23:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
David: Thanks for your work here. You did a fine job. Take my comments with a grain of salt as the draft would likely need major revisions no matter who wrote it. I did not like the data gathering section, and so I suggest this. The writing needs polishing and citations have to be added:
Data gathering methods
Many types of IQ tests exist, and test items range from vocabulary to number series to measures of choice reaction time. Most “cognitive abilities tests” (e.g., the ASVAB; SAT; GRE; GMAT) also serve as good proxies for intelligence. Researchers often use scores from these tasks interchangeably as “IQ scores.”
The key measure in this research, however, is the inter-correlation among IQ test scores or test items. In general, people doing well on one type of item/test tend to do well on all types of items/tests, even very dissimilar ones (this is known in the literature as the “positive manifold”). The inter-correlation among test items can be calculated statistically, and this measure is considered to be Spearman’s g (general mental ability).
Research on SIRE and IQ scores has focused almost exclusively on race differences in g. Spearman’s hypothesis, for example, predicts that the size of the race gap will co-vary with how g-loaded a mental task is. This hypothesis has been born out repeatedly in the academic literature.
Independent of race, IQ test scores correlate moderately-to-strongly with performance in similar life tasks (high school and college grade point averages, and years of education). The correlation with some real-world results is less strong. For example, while the correlation between IQ and job performance is about .50, IQ is only moderately correlated with income and wealth (r = .33), and even less so with negative social outcomes like teenage pregnancy rates (r = -.19) and juvenile delinquency (r = -.19). However, when IQ scores are aggregated among groups of people (e.g., the 50 U.S. states, or 108 nations worldwide), correlations tend to increase significantly. Whereas IQ predicts teenage pregnancy rates among individuals at only r = -.19; the correlation aggregated across the 50 US states becomes r = -.71.
A fair summary of the predictive validity of IQ test scores is:
• IQ scores measure many, but not all of the qualities that people mean by intelligent or smart (for example, IQ does not measure creativity, wisdom, or personality). • IQ scores are fairly stable over much of a person's life. • IQ tests are predictive of school and job performance, to a degree that does not significantly vary by socio-economic status or racial-ethnic background. • For people living in the prevailing conditions of the developed world, cognitive ability is substantially heritable, and while the impact of family environment on the IQ of children is substantial, after adolescence this effect becomes difficult to detect.
Bpesta22 (
talk) 01:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Now that Dr. Pesta has offered his review about this, I guess I’ll offer mine also. I’d like to start by pointing out that I agree with him and Aprock that overall, this version of the article is an improvement, and I appreciate the time David.Kane has put into it. However, it definitely has the potential to be improved further.
I also agree with all of Dr. Pesta’s comments, particularly about fleshing out the “history” section and going into more detail about IQ’s predictive validity for groups. I’m assuming that the latter would be going in the “significance” section, so that’s something we ought to resume discussing soon.
I’ll list the rest of my suggestions in decreasing order of importance:
1: The most important problem I see with this article is that it leaves off several lines of data that those of us who supported Varoon Arya’s outline intended for the article to cover. This isn’t really David’s fault, since I know revising the article would have been easier if the outline itself had made it clear where these lines of data were intended to go. He would have needed to read the entire “eventual page structure” discussion in order to see where these things were intended to go. I can summarize it, though:
2: A lot of the lines of data that are covered in the article are described in so little detail that readers aren’t presented with any information about what the data actually is, or how it relates to the topics of race and IQ. I know length is a consideration here, but so is making the article informative. Here are a few examples of what I’m talking about:
Education has a complicated relationship with intelligence; it is both a dependent and independent variable. On the one hand, those who did better on intelligence tests in their childhood tend to have a lower drop out rate, and complete more years of school, therefore making intelligence a predictive factor of how well someone will succeed in schooling. However, on the other hand, education has been shown to improve a person’s performance on these intelligence tests, from a very young age.
Okay, but what’s the data about how quality of education varies between races, and how much this affects IQ?
Several studies performed without the use of DNA-based ancestry estimation attempted to correlate estimates of African or European ancestry with IQ. These studies have been variously regarded as inconclusive, supportive of an environmental interpretation, or supportive of a hereditarian interpretation. These studies are generally criticized for using unreliable methods to estimate ancestry and for their small sample sizes.
Again, what are the actual results from these studies? The point of using a data-centric interpretation is that we present the actual results, rather than just saying how people interpreted them.
These are two examples of the problem, but it exists for almost all of the lines of data discussed here. The “health and nutrition”, “physiology” and “genetics” sections don’t discuss any of the data about whether and to what extent these traits vary between races, and the “discrimination” section doesn’t mention how discrimination can affect IQ. I think our goal for this article ought to be that it should explain how each of these lines of data play into the larger debate over the cause of the IQ difference, rather than just mentioning (as the current article does) that these lines of data exist.
As I said, the current version of article is better than the one we had a few months ago, because the earlier version didn’t even mention the existence of a lot of this data. But there’s still a lot of room for improvement here.
3: My last suggestion, other than the fact that we still need to add the “significance” section, is that both the “environmental interpretations” and “hereditarian interpretations” sections ought to include the most popular arguments for both of these positions. For example, one of the most oft-cited arguments for the environmental position is that white and mixed-race children performed about equally on cognitive tests in the Eyferth study, but the article doesn’t mention this study at all. Similarly, one of the most commonly-mentioned arguments in favor of the hereditarian position is that it’s able to make specific and testable predictions about the results of studies, such as that the IQ gap would shrink only slightly when SES is adjusted for and that the size of the IQ difference would correlate with the size of ancestry difference in racial admixture studies, whereas the environmental model generally can’t make these sorts of predictions without proposing a specific environmental factor as a cause. I know this is another place where length is an issue, but I also think explaining the arguments for each position is at least as important as the lengthy explanations for within-group and between-group heritability that are currently presented in both of these sections, which probably ought to go much earlier in the “group differences in in measures of intelligence” section anyway.
In any case, I don’t think we should be afraid to make the article a little longer in order to accommodate some of this data. In its present state it’s only 44 KB; we could probably make it as much as twice as long without it being a problem.
Again, thanks for all the work you’ve put into this article already, David, and I hope you won’t mind making some of these additional changes. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 12:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Because:
I'm not putting my contribution on the discussion page first because:
YOU CAN'T DELETE A SOURCED, NPOV CONTRIBUTION WITHOUT SAYING WHY HERE. I agree with rubenstein:
I also agree with mathsci:
I even agree with Ludwig, who said to wanaponda:
Now, this time, let's have a discussion about whether this data should be included. If my sourced, Pesta-approved contribution AND my attempt to discuss it are deleted again, I'm making a formal complaint at WP:ANI, which I believe is legitimate since the moderator is doing it. TechnoFaye Kane 17:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
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Perhaps it is my own lack of experience with Wikipedia, but I find this statement by MathSci to be confusing and, perhaps, threatening.
0) Is this a true statement? Did the mediation committee, in some sort of formal vote, decide that our mediation had to end? I don't think so. I think that a single editor decided, without seeking input from all the participants in the mediation, that the mediation should end. Am I wrong? 1) Since both MathSci and Xavexgoem have been involved in the debate over this article, I would expect them to recuse themselves from any decisions made by a higher authority like the mediation committee. Am I incorrect that this would be standard practice? 2) There is nothing in WP:M which suggests that a mediation process can or should be ended by fiat. If the vast majority (all?) of the participants in the mediation feel that progress is being made, then why would anyone seek to end the process? 3) Even if the formal mediation process were to end, I (and, I hope) others will continue to make this article better. In doing so, we will need to work together, compromise and so on. It sure seems like the current process, with Ludwig acting as an honest broker, has helped to facilitate that. So, is there any problem with us working that way in the future (assuming that we, as the group of active editors involved in the article) want to? 4) Is MathSci really threatening me/us with imposing editing restrictions? Just what actions on my part would lead to such restrictions? David.Kane ( talk) 14:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
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I think DJ or David Kane adding to the article or making those changes that A.Prock and Bryan Pesta agree on is an excellent next step, along with Varoon Arya's proposal to tweak MathSci's improved introduction. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Presently the section on interpretations was not rewritten by David Kane. All other sections and subsections in the article have no more than three paragraphs and all but one have either one or two paragraphs. For consistency, I suggest the same should apply to the interpretations subsections. To do so, we would need to determine the most important arguments for the environmental and hereditarian interpretations and summarize them in 1-2 paragraphs. This is a possible outline
Interpretations
Wapondaponda ( talk) 17:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
I have some issues:
Environmental interpretations
* Most important argument - environmental factors are uncontroversially known to influence IQ. Known factors include health, education and socioeconomic environment
It's quite possible that the causality is wrong here. It could be that IQ causes health, education and environment. I personally believe it's bi-directional. I think people create their environments-- mostly-- and not vice versa.
This is true of "shared environments," especially, in my world view. Non-shared stuff is likely a bigger influence (your excellent teachers; my lead poisoning). But, this interpretation is empty as an explanation for the gap in that the burden's on environmentalists to show that when variables(s) are controlled the gap is explained. So far, that's not been done. Granted "the environment" is complex, but kitchen sink variables have been controlled repeatedly and no factor x's have yet to emerge.
Criticism - Hereditarians argue that controlling for environmental factors reduces but does not eliminate the BW gap
* Response to criticism - Environmentalists argue that it is not possible to control for all environmental factors. For example the environmental cause of the Flynn effect has not been specifically identified
The Flynn effect, as far as I know, has never been shown to co-vary with the gap (nor is it a g effect). It cannot be the explanation if it affects all races equally and is independent of g.
But, I do agree the burden is also on the gene people to define race scientifically / genetically and then show it explains the gap. That has not been done. That to me is the strongest criticism of the race people.
Bpesta22 ( talk) 18:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
You have data showing a direct effect of environment on IQ (with the direction of the cause untangled) which when controlled explains the gap?
184.59.172.151 (
talk) 01:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
You may be able to get some ideas from the old version of the article/s, which are now on the Psychology Wiki. [3] [4] -- Horse wiz ( talk) 22:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Seeing that the mediation is in limbo, I have made the following proposal, which if implemented, might help restore confidence to the mediation.
Wapondaponda ( talk) 23:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
@David, as I have mentioned before, in a mediation, progress is not measured by the consensus of already like minded editors, it is measured by the consensus of disputing parties. If you have been following, I have disputed many of the suggestions that you are currently implementing from as far back as February. The only thing that has happened is that those in opposition have seen there numbers decrease, and those in favor have had their numbers increase. Mediation is not necessary for Captain Occam, Varoon and TechnoFaye etc to come to an agreement. If they were the only ones watching the article, there would be no Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race and Intelligence. @Bpesta, As for derailing this mediation, there are no deadlines on wikipedia. If this mediation is to be a real mediation, and not a straw man, it needs the support from those those on the other side of the dispute. Wapondaponda ( talk) 05:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Mathsci ( talk) 10:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
As for Varoon's outline, I consider it a step in the right direction but I do not consider it perfect. Several of Muntuwandi's points are pretty reasonable and I wish Varoon could accommodate them.Slrubenstein
If you, Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi don’t want to put regression in your outline, then just don’t. It isn’t worth the amount of time it would require for me to convince all three of you that you should include this data, when it’s already obvious that we’ll be using Varoon Arya’s outline rather than yours if you don’t.
So I can pretty much guarantee that as long as Varoon Arya’s proposed outline includes this line of data, and Muntuwandi’s doesn’t, mikemikev, VA, DJ, David.Kane and I are all going to prefer VA’s outline over Muntuwandi’s. If Muntuwandi wants his outline to be favored, he is the one who will need to compromise here. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
We are seeking mediation to come up with ONE outline for the article. In the end there is no "my outline" versus "your outline," there is just the outline we will use. And if you do not understand what regression to the mean is, then I advise you to listen to people who do, in devising the outline we will use for this article. Slrubenstein Talk 11:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't have an outline. Most of the feedback I've given has been with respect to VA's outline. This process isn't going to resolve itself by presenting two different outlines and then picking one. If we can't come to a consensus about the outline, it's difficult to see how this will proceed in any sort of timely manner. And again, your "my way or the highway" attitude really isn't productive in terms of reaching consensus. A.Prock (talk) 18:44, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I am not happy with this conversation. As far as I can see, it is a distraction from the task of building the article, and not useful to the article in any way, shape, or form. There is no point in rehashing past issues when we have more pressing problems facing us.
Wapondaponda, Mathsci - please contribute concrete suggestions for revising the draft, or specific concerns or complaints about the draft as it is that you would like to see addressed. Until you do so, and until you make a decent effort towards working with the current article, the topics of moving the draft to a subpage or restarting discussions about the outline are strictly off-limits; I will archive any further discussions of that nature. We can revisit the issues if-and-when it becomes clear that there is a need to.
I am not going to allow the process of improving the article to be sidetracked by an extended conversation that has no value to the encyclopedia or the article whatsoever. Help it move forward, don't help it move forward; that is your choice. We are not going to move backwards. -- Ludwigs2 15:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Wapondaponda: Fair enough your comments re consensus. My confusion stems from the fact that reality isn't determined by consensus vote-- neither really is science. Scientists don't change their minds or world views (or accept that the body of knowledge in their areas are indeed facts) by voting on it. Rather, one needs so much data on x that denying x would be absurd. The level of data required increases massively when x is controversial.
But, we have massive data on x. It would be absurd to deny x. The explanation for x is hotly debated, and so all sides should be presented. Wiki should aim to present a balanced treatment of all this (constrained by what experts in the field currently see as answered / unanswered issues). It seems like that's what's being done here. Kudoos to Ludwig and most all participants for keeping this level headed. I've had these debates online for about 20 years now. It could be partly a recency effect but I cannot remember the last time I have discussed this where all participants argued the points versus attacked each other. That has been remarkable here, based on my experience elsewhere.
Given the time constraints on this project, I hope to read the new outline today or tomorrow and provide peer review. Bpesta22 ( talk) 15:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
@Ludwigs, I have no intention of dragging this out indefinitely, there are other interesting articles that need attention. I have a specific concern. You have allowed Occam and co. to steam roll over other editors, and to basically say, because we are more than you, what you say doesn't matter. In light of this, how can we trust any future concerns will be given due consideration. By favoring one side, you have contributed to an atmosphere of distrust, which is likely to harm future efforts at reaching a consensus. I would like very much to get back to discussing content, but I have concerns about the current process. Wapondaponda ( talk) 16:27, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
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Aryaman: I accept that your post is in good faith, but I'd still ask you to go back and refactor some of the more pointed comments (I'm thinking of things like the line "all the other editors some here are trying to lump together as a cabal..." I really would like, as much as possible, to keep to a 'no comments about other editors' rule, at least wherever such a comment might be viewed as an interpretation of that editor's behavior. interpreting other people's behavior is unavoidable, of course, but where you need to do so, please make interpretations in the spirit of wp:AGF. In the case you mentioned, for instance, all you need to do is offer a reminder. they make an argument, you respond with a source, and if they don't respond you may assume (in goof faith) that they have accepted your point as is. If they then make the same argument again, simply say something like: "I'm sorry, I thought you had agreed with this point above, when I presented this source - (source X). are you saying now that you disagree?" That way, if they have forgotten the source they can say 'Oh, yeah...', or if they missed your reply above and still disagree, then they can respond to the point now. There's no need to re-argue the point - assume that other editors are responsible and responsive, but human (and so error-prone), and just point them back to missed material when and where you have to. if it becomes a protracted problem, let me know, but I suspect it's just a matter of keeping track of the mass of material on the page. -- Ludwigs2 19:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC) |
For the long-term stability of the article, I still believe it is important to discuss procedural issues. As Mathsci has pointed out, we are now in the sixth calendar month of this mediation. Many of us are getting burned out by this mediation. However, it seems that some editors may have an insatiable appetite for the minutiae of this topic. We still have some problems. Many editors have praised David Kane's version. I am particularly pleased that the article is not too long. But some editors may be unhappy about this because they believe a lot has been left out. So it looks like we are in for an extended dispute. My specific concern is over-editing and over-discussing. The R&I talk page has over 74 archive pages. Pretty much whatever has been discussed in this mediation, has been discussed before in some way. Furthermore, since R&I is a highly controversial article, many discussions are heated often deteriorating into incivility, sarcasm and personal attacks. I think most neutrals would agree that an extended dispute would be unproductive. It is totally inappropriate if this article continues to consume all or much of our wiki-time in the future. There has been frequent discussions of single purpose editing and article ownership. I am of the opinion that one or two super-dedicated editors can effectively set the pace of discussion simply by trying to make controversial edits, and in the process, drag a several other editors into a lengthy dispute. When the mediation ends in about a week, disputes will move back to the talk page. The R&I article should be considered a chronic problem and should be managed as such. I would place R&I in the Wikipedia's top ten most controversial articles, thus it shouldn't be treated like any other article. Consequently, I definitely see the need for procedural or administrative intervention, not to enforce a POV, but to stabilize the revision history. So here are a couple of suggestions, On content, we have three choices
The interpretations section is pretty much what existed before and is out of sync with the rest of the article, I would suggest summarizing each of the sub-sections to no more than two average sized paragraphs. Whatever version that is selected at the end of the mediation, the article needs some administrative intervention. Either the article could be placed on probation, or the article needs to be fully protected. Unless there is a paradigm shifting event that takes place, there is no need to urgently edit anything into the article. If there is anything missing from the article, we can simply place links to publications that contain the missing information in the "Further information" or "External links" subsections. Finally topic bans should remain an option if single purpose editing or article ownership becomes a problem. Wapondaponda ( talk) 04:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
"Since the introduction of intelligence tests in the early twentieth century and their use by the US army and policy makers, the connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in the media and populist literature. Historically IQ tests in the US revealed disparities between different population groups, with the average score for African Americans being several points below that of White Americans. In the academic world, however, there are no simplistic definitions of either race or intelligence: the study of population groups is carried out by anthropologists and sociologists; the genetic mechanism of heritability is studied by biologists; and the general theory of intelligence testing is subsumed within the subject of psychometry. Many factors have been put forward to explain the gap in IQ scores, which has changed systematically over the years. It is generally accepted that environmental factors affect individual scores. What has sparked the most recent debate has been the controversial claim by a group of psychiatrists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that there is a predominantly genetic basis for the lower IQ scores and that accordingly certain races are inherently more intelligent than others. This claim has not been accepted within mainstream science."
Mathsci ( talk) 08:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
On the whole, I like Mathsci's summary. There are a few minor details which I would like to modify and/or tweak, though, and I'd be more than willing to discuss those with Mathsci and other editors in the hopes of ironing out a good lead to the article. This section, however, is probably not the best place to do that. As soon as Ludwigs gives the green light, I'd be ready to make some minor suggestions on this. -- Aryaman (talk) 12:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
(mediator note - I have refactored bpesta's comments here from where he placed it at the end of the document, and reindented appropriately)-- Ludwigs2 17:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
In the following, I have followed Mathsci's original suggestion in the main, though I have also taken BPesta's suggestion into consideration. I've tried to reduce the text down to what is absolutely necessary. I hope the reasons for both my changes (e.g. "populist literature" (?) > " popular science") and my omissions (e.g. removal of the list of which disciplines do what) are sufficiently transparent to everyone so as not to require a detailed explanation. If not, however, I can provide such upon request. I expect additional changes to be made, and I would appreciate them most if they were undertaken by editors who have not yet voiced their opinion on this matter. UPDATE: I have modified the text to accommodate objections raised by Mathsci, David.Kane and Captain Occam below.
Since the inception of intelligence testing in the early twentieth century, the connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and the media, particularly in the United States, where the results of such testing has been used to shape public policy. Intelligence quotient (IQ) tests performed in the US have consistently demonstrated a significant degree of variation between different racial groups, with the average score of the African American population being significantly lower - and that of the Asian American population being significantly higher - than that of the White American population. Similar findings have been reported for related populations around the world, though these are generally considered far less reliable due to the difficulty inherent in the cross-cultural comparison of intelligence test scores.
There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and the discussion of their connection involves the results of multiple disciplines, including biology, anthropology, sociology, and psychology. Many factors possessing the potential to influence the development of intelligence have been advanced as possible causes of the racial IQ gap which, though subject to variation over time, has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began. It is generally agreed that environmental and/or cultural factors affect individual IQ scores, and it is widely assumed that most or all of the racial IQ gap is attributable to such factors, though none are conclusively supported by direct empirical support.
Far more controversial is the claim advanced by several psychologists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap is not explained by appeals to any known environmental factors, and that this portion has an ultimately genetic origin. This claim has not been accepted by the wider academic community and has been met with widespread disapproval in the popular media. Official statements by academic bodies such as the American Psychological Association indicate that the cause of the racial IQ gap is currently unknown.
-- Aryaman (talk) 19:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Straw Poll: Please comment on the revision to the lead proposed above. Give a yes, no, or almost, and indicate (briefly) what if anything needs to be changed in it. If there is a general thumbs up from the other participants (the three who noted their agreement above do not need to do so again) then we can edit it in. -- Ludwigs2 15:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Ludwigs2, can we wait until Arya has tweaked it? He has expressed a desire to make some changes, and mathsci recognizes the need for some improvement; I think we'd all be better off being polled on what MathSci and Varoon agree with. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment The editing of wikipedia articles is never decided by poll, but by the quality of edits. Here is no exception. People should not vote but make constructive suggestions: that is the usual way that wikipedia is edited (given its peculiar editing rules). As this article gradually returns in the next few days to being edited normally in mainspace and mediation is brought to a close, we should use the normal procedures for editing articles. At the moment editors previously assumed to have polarized viewpoints are now in agreement. I find this outcome extremely positive - and surprising :) Please, let's make the most of it! Mathsci ( talk) 18:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Aryaman. I like your version and think the lede is good to go.
Bpesta22 (
talk) 21:42, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that VAs lede is OK, but in order to be clearly better than mine, I would like to see some things fixed. I have not thought hard enough about just how they should be fixed to have an informed opinion.
Of course, I am not an objective judge of the current lead and I agree with many of the criticism made about it above by MathSci and others. David.Kane ( talk) 23:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
The connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and the media since the inception of intelligence testing in the early twentieth century, particularly in the United States.
Race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and the media since the inception of intelligence testing in the early twentieth century, particularly in the United States.
Similar findings have been reported for related populations around the world, though these are generally considered far less reliable due to the difficulty inherent in the cross-cultural comparison of intelligence test scores.
Comment: I'm fine with VA's version of the outline except for the last paragraph:
Far more controversial is the claim advanced by several psychologists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap is not explained by appeals to any known environmental factors, and that this portion has an ultimately genetic origin. This claim has not been accepted by the wider academic community and has been met with widespread disapproval in the popular media.
This implies that the wider academic community has not accepted either the idea that the IQ gap is partly genetic or the idea that no currently known environmental factors are enough to explain it. This is probably true in the first case, but it's not true in the second--for example, the APA report mentions that nobody has yet provided a well-supported explanation of its cause. In this respect, Jensen and Rushton are in agreement with the APA.
I would suggest changing the last two paragraphs say something like this:
There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and the discussion of their connection involves the results of multiple disciplines, including biology, anthropology, sociology, and psychology. Many factors possessing the potential to influence the development of intelligence have been advanced as possible causes of the racial IQ gap which, though subject to variation over time, has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began. It is generally agreed that environmental factors affect individual IQ scores, and it is widely assumed that most or all of the racial IQ gap is attributable to such factors, but no specific environmental factor been has identified as a definitive cause.
The current consensus among researchers who study the racial IQ gap is that data are insufficient to identify its cause. Far more controversial is the claim advanced by several psychologists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap has an ultimately genetic origin. This claim has not been accepted by the wider academic community and has been met with widespread disapproval in the popular media.
If you want to alter this phrasing to take other users' suggestions into consideration, that's fine with me also. The important thing is that we distinguish between the idea that no specific environmental factor has been identified that can clearly explain the IQ gap, which is the opinion of Jensen and Rushton as well as the APA; and the opinion that the gap is partly genetic, which is accepted by a much smaller group of people. Also, let's not forget about DJ's proposed lede. Perhaps we could get some ideas from that also. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 04:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment I have been WP:BOLD and incorporated Varoon Arya's lede into the article, where it can be edited directly. I have incorporated the suggestions of David.Kane, by inverting the order of the first sentence. I have included Bpesta22's suggestion about the use of the test by industrialists, adding also the US army, educationalists and policy makers. I have included a neutral version of the sentence about internationalization. I have NOT added the phrase "some races are inherently more or less intelligent than others". I suggest that changes to the lede now should be discussed not here, but on the talk page, so that users not involved in mediation can participate. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk)
Occam has raised the point that the introduction should mention that the dominant position as summarized by the APA is one of agnosticism, e.g. that the cause of the IQ gap is not known, as well as that cultural/environmental explanations, though favourable, lack sufficient empirical support. The APA report makes specific mention of this twice:
The cause of [the IQ] differential is not known; it is apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the content or administration of the tests themselves. The Flynn effect shows that environmental factors can produce differences of at least this magnitude, but that effect is mysterious in its own right. Several culturally based explanations of the Black/ White IQ differential have been proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate explanation of the differential between the IQ means of Blacks and Whites is presently available.
And again:
The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support. There is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation. At present, no one knows what causes this differential.
It is justified to interpret this as an important conclusion of the APA report, and it has been repeated in more recent work, such as that of Bartholomew (2004). I find it hard, therefore, to dismiss Occam's concern as POV-pushing. While the APA report distinguishes environmental explanations as either "plausible" or "appropriate", it clearly states that they are weak in the way of direct emprical support. I think the last sentence in the first paragraph of Occam's proposal summarizes this situation in neutral language.
I do object to the phrase "some races are inherently more or less intelligent that others" on the grounds that Jensen & Rushton distance themselves from such a claim. Talk of any "inherent features" of races - let alone intelligence - is entirely outdated, and does not reflect the hereditarian position. As they write:
Heritability describes what is the genetic contribution to individual differences in a particular population at a particular time, not what could be. If either the genetic or the environmental influences change (e.g., due to migration, greater educational opportunity, better nutrition), then the relative impact of genes and environment will change. Heritability has nothing to say about what should be. If a trait has a high heritability it does not mean that it cannot be changed. Environmental change is possible. [...] The fact that the heritability of IQ is between 0.50 and 0.80 does not mean that individual differences are fixed and permanent. It does tell us that some individuals are genetically predisposed to be more teachable, more trainable, and more capable of changing than others, under current conditions.
I dropped the phrase because I find it both unnecessary as well as incorrect and/or misleading.
I have made adjustments to the proposal according to various suggestions made above. -- Aryaman (talk) 09:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I've followed Mathsci's lead and have continued to make additions to the lead itself, most notably to reflect Muntuwandi's concerns. Are we moving this discussion to the talkpage now? -- Aryaman (talk) 10:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I note that David.Kane removed the names of Jensen, Rushton and Lynn from the lede without discussion. The controversy revolves around the work of these psychologists and their collaborators. There is no corresponding group of psychologists spending their time researching the environmental explanation of the racial IQ gap. That is why it is important to mention their names in the lede. If their names were not mentioned it would be absolutely necessary to write that only a limited number of psychologists have promoted this point of view. The unqualified phrase was an example of WP:UNDUE, so I have restored the names. Mathsci ( talk) 14:04, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
- History
- This section should briefly describe the history of intelligence testing and how it has been applied to the issue of race. This should not attempt to be a history of the debate: that will be covered below.
- Group differences in measures of intelligence
- The introduction to this section should discuss those factors which are generally recognized as affecting the development of intelligence in individuals and explain the concept of heritability. The general idea here is to set up the key points in the discussion of between-group comparisons. The question of suitability should also be treated here, along with an appropriate rebuttal.
- Data gathering methods
- This sub-section should discuss the kinds of tests used to measure intelligence as well as the criteria used to determine race. Any general, non-controversial shortcomings these methods have should be mentioned here. This section should focus on SIRE as the most common variable for race and IQ (or some other psychometric score) as the most common variable for intelligence.
- Intelligence test score results
- This sub-section should present the results of intelligence testing on racial groups. Intended here is preliminary, "uncontrolled" testing, i.e. not the kind that takes place in a controlled study such as the MTAS. In its final paragraph, this sub-section should also describe the so-called "Flynn effect", though discussion of potential causation should be omitted until the next sub-section.
- Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups
- This sub-section should discuss those factors which may influence the development of intelligence in groups. Each factor, such as:
- Health and Nutrition (self-explanatory)
- Rearing conditions (e.g. transracial adoption studies, some twin studies, etc.)
- Socioeconomic environment (self-explanatory)
- Education (e.g. length of education, quality of education, etc.)
- Discrimination (e.g. discrimination in education, caste-like minorities, etc.)
- Stereotypical behaviour (e.g. "stereotype threat")
- Geographic ancestry (e.g. studies comparing the ratio of African/European ancestry to IQ)
- Physiology (biological coordinates related to physiology, e.g. brain size, etc.)
- Neuropsychology (biological coordinates related to neuropsychology, e.g. neural density, speed and efficiency of neural information processing, etc.)
- Genetics (e.g. molecular genetics studies, etc.)
- should be listed under its own heading, with the main studies on that factor briefly discussed along with any pertinent criticism of those studies. Notice there is no grouping into "environmental" or "hereditarian" research here - just research on factors potentially affecting the development of intelligence in groups.
- Significance of group IQ differences
- The scope and depth of this section is yet to be finalized. It's inclusion is pending review of a proposed outline describing it's content and scope.
- Interpretations
- The introduction to this section should present the history of the debate beginning with Jensen's paper in the late 60's and extending through the debates of the 90's. The key papers which emerged during this period should be briefly summarized. The purpose here is to orient the reader in the current state of the debate and to make clear that there are at least four positions taken by experts.
- Environmental interpretations
- This sub-section should make a coherent presentation of the environmentalist argument, i.e. that all of the difference in test scores between groups can be accounted for by appealing primarily or exclusively to environmental factors. The key supporters, such as Nisbett and Ceci, and their arguments should be presented, and their work should be criticised where appropriate.
- Hereditarian interpretations
- This sub-section should make a coherent presentation of the hereditarian argument, i.e. that the difference in test scores between groups is to be accounted for by a mixture of environmental and genetic factors. The key supporters, such as Jensen and Rushton, and their arguments should be presented, and their work should be criticised where appropriate. (The 100% genetic interpretation is pretty fringe, and I don't know of any experts currently holding this position, thus it does not have its own section. If literature can be found on it, however, it should certainly be included.)
- Official statements
- This section should present the position taken by bodies of experts in official statements such as that of the APA and the AAA. To be fair, the paper Mainstream Science on Intelligence should also be discussed despite its not being an "official" statement, as it was signed by a rather large body of qualified experts and does not differ substantially from the APA report.
Ludwigs2 08:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
This is mostly based on Aryman's outline, which had relatively broad approval in the discussion above. I have made the following changes to it (based on other editors comments, and my own discretion - those editors will be mentioned in brackets). -- Ludwigs2 08:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC) Changes
Questions
Suggestions
let's take a day or two to debate some of the fine points of the outline, but I'd like to give David the go-ahead to start revising on sunday or monday.
please place your comments below. -- Ludwigs2 08:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
If that’s really what Aprock meant, then I’m fine with this outline as the first draft, and I think we’re ready to begin editing the article. I would have preferred to hear this from Aprock himself, but after looking around a bit it seems that we now have a time limit of two weeks before this mediation case is shut down by an external decision, so I guess I shouldn’t delay our progress with the article in any way that can be avoided.
So in other words:
Support, assuming that your explanation of Aprock’s meaning is accurate.
I just hope we can resolve the rest of our questions about this article before the two-week time limit expires. Even though we’ve resolved a lot, there still are a few more points left to resolve, such as the structure of the “significance” section. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 21:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
If by significance you mean practical significance then re-read the "effect size" stuff I posted. ES is all about practical significance. Over and under-representation of minorities on many variables that are important to well-being can be calculated rather accurately by appeal to ES and bell curves.
Bpesta22 ( talk) 23:43, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Sending this out for editing into mainspace. I think this outline has a sufficient level of approval to begin editing it into mainspace. I'll copy it as is over to David.Kane's talk page and he can begin work on it. I'll post back when I get some idea of the time frame invloved. -- Ludwigs2 16:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
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I posted a few paragraphs of support in that complaint thread linked above (both pro Ludwig and technofaye) but I must have screwed something up as it seem to not have posted. I can retype it, if you all think that would be helpful (I think closing this now is stupid, and it seems like we're close to fleshing out the outline).
BP
Bpesta22 ( talk) 19:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Use this section for comments and discussion of the 4/1/2010 draft. Participants should follow the mediation rules given in the #Initiation of Mediation section at the top of the page. Please comment here before making any substantive changes to the draft itself - the goal is to make consensus-based modifications to the draft as they arise, so that we achieve a version that has broad acceptance. The draft is finished, please feel free to comment.
-- Ludwigs2 18:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
META: Guys, perhaps we should sign our contributions at the end of each coherent point instead of at the end of a long speech, so others can reply to individual points without breaking up someone else's message into disjointed, unsigned pieces. This also prevents the edit conflicts which plague anyone editing for more than 30 seconds.'
TechnoFaye Kane 21:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
This article, as written, directly contradicts current mainstream opinion in the matter as published in the main academic journal on the subject and a letter of mainstream opinion signed by 52 published, authoritative experts in this specific field. [redacted]
As an example, look at the list of factors.
[redacted] TechnoFaye Kane 21:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
ANOTHER CONCERN: The scientific issues are not black and white. They're black, white and Asian. I think it's important to keep that in mind, particularly since the Asian dominance of IQ scores not only refutes the charge of the research being "white supremacist", but more importantly demonstrates that the IQ difference between races is REAL. Dr. Rushton stated that more formally:
ONE MORE NOTE: I think that Dr. Pesta should review the final article and wherever he says ""Uhhh, no WAY!", we should alter it. For instance, statements describing what beliefs are mainstream is one example of where the disease of POV might infect this article via the vector of "consensus". TechnoFaye Kane 05:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with TF that there's enough data on Asian IQ that it really needs to be included here. It indeed helps to rule out simplistic explanations like the researchers are racist (unless one then assumes a conspiracy theory wherein the racists are using the higher mean Asian IQ temporarily to divert attention away from their arguments re black versus white). Also, any explanation for the difference needs to explain the three-way pattern.
I'm interested in peer-reviewing the complete product but I will wait til it's produced. Bpesta22 ( talk) 14:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Can you suggest a good citation for Asian, white, black IQ? Needs to be in the peer-reviewed literature. Thanks. David.Kane ( talk) 16:36, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Rushton and Jensen; see page 240
http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/PPPL1.pdf Bpesta22 ( talk) 02:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
This belongs at the end. It is FAR less important than the current debate, both scientifically as well as in terms of what the reader is interested in when he comes here. TechnoFaye Kane 21:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Here are some of my concerns about this mediation, I echo Slrubenstein's comments on the ANI, since Ramdrake, Alun and T34CH aren't participating in the mediation, it has become less and less of a mediation between disputing parties. I don't see any progress and very little in terms of agreement between the disputing parties. If any agreement and consensus exists in this mediation, it is between like minded editors and not between disputing parties. Could anyone point to an explicit agreement or consensus between myself and either Occam Varoon, Mikemikev or even TechnoFaye. We may have agreed on non-actionable issues, but not on any single proposal. The mediator In my interactions with the mediator, Ludwigs, I have found no bias in his one-to-one interactions with myself or with other editors. I think he has been consistent and dedicated to this mediation. He has considered all viewpoints in his decisions. However, I do have a number of concerns. The three most important decisions in this mediation have been
All three of these decisions were favorable to supporters of the "genetic hypothesis". The question is not whether Ludwigs decisions have been biased, but whether they are deliberately or unknowingly biased. The fact that the three most important decisions have gone in favor of the genetic camp, clearly shows that this mediation has been one-way traffic and not really a mediation. It may be, that in order to placate those who opposed these proposals, Ludwigs has offered them a few crumbs, and leftovers , but he has still delivered the main course to the hereditarian crew who are seemingly quite happy about the mediation. Just to restate my position,
Wapondaponda ( talk) 21:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Muntuwandi, if you’re going to claim that the reason any of these three topics was decided in a way that you disagree with is because of Ludwig showing bias (intentional or unintentional) to one of the two positions about this topic, then I think you ought to re-read the discussions that resulted in these decisions. If you do, I think it’ll be clear that none of them were based on either favoritism towards one of the two groups, or even just a majority opinion.
In the case of the data-centric approach, this approach was approved by everyone in the mediation except you, including users such as Ramdrake, Aprock and Slrubenstein who favor the 100% environmental explanation for the IQ difference. Choosing this proposal over your own proposal was not a matter of favoring the “hereditarian” position over the “environmental” one; it was a matter of choosing the approach that the majority of users taking both perspectives were able to agree on, rather than the one that a single user was pressing for. Your claim that the data-centric approach will give undue weight to the hereditarian position is also quite strange—it will give more weight than the existing version of the article to the data itself, which is an idea that seems difficult to argue with since the data is something that both positions agree on, and they differ only in how they interpret it. But what has anyone here said to suggest that it will give more space to the hereditarian model than the existing article does?
In the case of whether the hereditarian hypothesis is “fringe” or not, this is not something that can be resolved based on the preferences of editors the way the article’s structure can. Wikipedia has a specific definition of what constitutes a fringe theory, and either this theory fits its definition or it doesn’t, regardless of what any of us think. Another relevant point is the criteria for determining consensus in a discussion, which does not depend on the agreement of 100% of the users involved in that discussion, but on the points raised in that discussion and whether or not they’ve been addressed. Whichever way you look at the debate we had over the WP:FRINGE issue, there’s only one conclusions it can be considered to have reached: Varoon Arya carefully explained how in all respects this theory did not meet Wikipedia’s definition of a fringe theory, and all users who supported the 100% environmental perspective either agreed with him or had nothing to say in response.
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You belong to the latter category. Even though you were active in the mediation during and after that debate, you’ve never attempted to address VA’s explanation of how Wikipedia policy does not allow us to treat this hypothesis as a fringe theory. Despite the fact that you personally don’t like this decision, your lack of any response to the points it was based on is in itself a tacit admission that you have no argument against this interpretation of Wikipedia policy. In a situation like this one, there’s only one appropriate interpretation of which way consensus has gone, regardless of who we have as a mediator. The reason all of us have had so much trouble coming to agreements with you isn’t because we aren’t willing to compromise; the compromises we’ve made with Ramdrake, Slrubenstein and Aprock should be enough to show that we are. If it’s true that you’ve never agreed with us about anything, it’s been because of a combination of two things. One is that you’ve very rarely been willing to engage in discussions that could result in compromise, which would require listening to the other side, and being prepared to back down about certain points if your argument for what you want is shown to be flawed. And the other reason is that you seem very reluctant to accept the outcome of anything we’ve decided already, even if it’s been clearly shown that it’s the only possible outcome consistent with Wikipedia policy. If you’re unwilling to accept these decisions on a personal level, that’s your own prerogative, but we can only cater to your preferences if those preferences are consistent with the goals of Wikipedia. |
-- Captain Occam ( talk) 23:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm willing to agree with any editor on anything, provided sufficient reason can be given in support of any objection s/he may raise or of any course of action s/he may suggest. I agree with Muntuwandi in that I would not choose the phrase "The hereditarian hypothesis is not “fringe”, either by Wikipedia’s standards or any other standard" to summarize the resolution of the "fringe" issue, and I agree with the reasoning given. I suggested a rewording, and Ludwigs modified the statement yet again to reflect his view of the overall consensus on the matter. If editors provide sufficient reason for changing the current resolution, I'm sure Ludwigs will modify the statement accordingly. -- Aryaman (talk) 11:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Not to worry, I am not too bothered by hard direct talk, as long as it is about activities within Wikipedia. Occam, could you provide links to where Slrubenstein and Ramdrake explicitly agreed with the data-centric model. I didn't see their opinions in the straw-poll. Out of the editors who are not part of the "hereditarian group", only A.Prock and myself participated. Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal states: The Mediation Cabal is a bunch of volunteers providing unofficial, informal mediation for disputes on Wikipedia. We do not impose sanctions or make judgments. We are just ordinary Wikipedians who help facilitate communication and help parties reach an agreement. It is my understanding, that the Mediator's role is not to help create a new article, but rather to help those parties that disagree to agree or make comprises. For mediation to work, the potential for an agreement between disputing parties must exist, at the same time some obstacle would exist that prevents this agreement from taking place. It is the mediator's role to try to eliminate this obstacle in order to facilitate agreements between the disputing parties. The mediator has done his job, if he or she has tried to understand both sides of the dispute and made efforts to make both sides understand each others' point of view. The mediation is a success if disputing parties reach an agreement. I think the mediator and many parties in this mediation have focused on creating a new article, not on getting agreements. Ludwigs states, I will say, that I think the decision about the so-called genetic hypothesis not being fringe seems appropriate to me. The more extreme positions of that approach may be fringe (I'm sure we'll have some commentary on that point) but the general idea appears with enough frequency in the scholarly literature that it would be inappropriate under NPOV to dismiss the whole range of research that deals with it as fringe. This is a reasonable assessment, but isn't the mediator passing judgment. The mediator is entitled to his own opinion, and being an editor like anyone else can express his opinions. But the mediator shouldn't impose decisions or opinions. In order for the fringe statement to pass it should have individuals from both sides of the dispute voluntarily agreeing with the statement. The mediator stated that there was no consensus for a data-centric article, but that the writer should go with a data-centric article anyway. Once again the mediator has suggested a course of action that lacks voluntary agreement from the disputing parties. The mediator chose to go with one outline over another, but gave no reason for doing so. Once again this feels like passing judgment. AFAIK, there is no still no voluntary agreement from disputing parties concerning the outline. From my perspective the above issues have not been resolved and therefore I object to the current direction the mediation is taking. This includes whatever David Kane is writing. I agree with Occam in that unanimity is not a requirement for consensus, so my objections may not be important. However, the fact there is little explicit support for the current proceedings from other editors not in the "hereditarian group" remains an issue. Wapondaponda ( talk) 21:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Mathsci recently made a comment reflecting one of his central concerns regarding this article/mediation over at AN/I, i.e. that it is "built on a faulty premise". It's worth bringing up here because other editors might share this concern. As I understood it, the reasoning behind Mathsci's concern is as follows:
There is no evidence whatsoever that any departments in major universities where there is specialisation in psychometry (eg the Centre for Psychometry in the University of Cambridge) spend any time at all producing research in this area.
This surprised me, because I remembered reading that James R. Flynn is a Distinguished Associate at Cambridge's Psychometrics Centre. So, I checked up on their website, and found that, of the six points listed in summary of their areas of Research & Development, two read:
For a research department which spends "no time at all producing research in this area", Cambridge's Psychometrics Centre appears to me to be doing a very poor job of it. But I didn't attend Cambridge. What the hell do I know? So, I took a look Cambridge's publications list. Unfortunately, the situation here is even less clear. Case in point: David J. Bartholomew's Measuring Intelligence: Facts and Fallacies published by Cambridge in 2004, in which he summarily states:
The fact that groups differ in average IQ is not, of itself, a source of great debate or division. The real bone of contention arises when it seems to point to differences in underlying mental ability. Does the black/white IQ difference in the United States, for example, indicate, in whole or part, a real difference originating in the genes or can it be wholly accounted for by environmental factors? The foregoing discussion should have made it clear that, in strict logic, no definite answer can be given to that question. It will always remain a possibility that there is some environmental factor which is so confounded with race that it cannot be distinguished from it. (pg. 122)
I'm relieved to see a good deal of congruence between Bartholomew's summary and the view of the APA as I understand it. But I'm bothered by the fact that Cambridge is publishing academic works discussing race and intelligence at such length when they are supposed to have no interest in this area at all. I've misunderstood something, obviously.
[redacted] But seeing as he is technically part of this mediation, and this concern of his does apply to this mediation, I thought it fair to mention this concern and discuss it here with other concerned editors, provided other editors can point me in the right direction. -- Aryaman (talk) 08:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
-> Again, Varoon Arya, this seems like original research and synthesis. You are assembling a small set of individuals and making a huge claim. The simple fact is that the topic "race and intelligence" is not studied in any major universities. Individuals like Nicholas Mackintosh and James Nesbitt might comment in book reviews or popular books on the research of the small group of privately funded researchers around Rushton, Jensen and Lynn. However, it would be exceedingly undue and misleading to describe that as a "ongoing debate in academia". Almost all the research on psychometry involves quite different things. The Pioneer group might invoke some of aspects of this mainstream research in their own writings, but that is quite another thing. The Pioneer group is on the fringes of academia, if it is in academia at all.
Just to make my point more clearly, the Flynn effect is a mainstream piece of scientific research which stands on its own merits and does not seem controversial. It is a very general statement in psychometry. It isn't classified as part of the non-existent academic subject of race and intelligence.
As I wrote at the beginning of mediation, requested originally by Ramdrake, endlessly debating issues like this, which do not rely on written sources, is entirely the wrong way to proceed in editing wikipedia articles. Why pretend that what has been a debate in the media and amongst policy makers has been going on in the academic world? That is an obvious fallacy and distortion. Most respected academics wouldn't touch this topic with a barge pole.
I have another issue related to this point. The article Mainstream Science on Intelligence was extensively rewritten by you to remove all criticisms. When you wrote it, you were aware of a critical letter to a journal by leading anthroplogists discussed by me on the R&I talk page. Neutral editing would have involved including in the article a reference to that and other criticism. That is not how the article reads. It is not an academic article but a letter to the WSJ by a self-chosen group of individuals, some receiving support from the Pioneer Fund. To use such a letter to a newspaper as support for the existence of ongoing debate in academia on "race and intelligence" would be equally invalid (I don't know whether that is or was your intention). The letter was drafted by a well-known advisor to policy makers in the USA. It belongs to the political and media sphere despite its claim to represent "mainstream science". As a research scientist myself, in the university world academic mainstream science is represented by institutions like the National Science Foundation, the Royal Society and the CNRS, not by a self-chosen group of signatories of a letter to the WSJ.
But again this kind of talk page debate does not seem helpful. It is a misuse of this page as a WP:FORUM. Writing wikipedia articles depends solely on locating the best secondary sources directly related the topic. The task of wikipedians is then accurately to summarise those sources in the article, using inline citations, particularly when the corresponding statements are controversial. Using primary sources, such as "data", is against policy. It seems to be happening here at the moment [redacted] . In other words, when there is a clear mainstream point of view, that should be made abundantly clear in the article, particularly the lede. Not doing so contradicts WP:NPOV. In this case it would amount to a group of editors selecting the "facts" themselves (i,e. the truth) and then letting the reader make up his/her own mind about which theory - hereditarian or evolutionary - is more convincing as an explanation of those facts.
At the moment the current article looks like a "pick and mix" stall at a sweet shop: should I buy environmental or should I buy hereditarian? (Quite off-topic but seasonal, I recommend Marks and Spencer's delicious "speckled eggs", particularly for the young.) Mathsci ( talk) 12:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Although prejudice and stereotyping concerning the superiority of one race over another exist in many countries, the academic debate on the connection between intelligence and race, especially as measured through IQ, has been most vigorous in the USA and the UK. (pg. 250)
(A version of this comment also appears on the article talk page.)
I have finished my two days (plus two hours) of work on the rewrite. Comments:
I will leave it to other editors to judge whether or not this version, taken as a whole, is superior to the previous one. I look to the mediator for discussion about where we go from here. David.Kane ( talk) 14:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I will be rewriting the article from 8:00 AM EDT March 30 until 8:00 AM EDT April 1. Comments:
1) I have explained twice over the last few months ( [1] and [2]), I am happy to have anyone else but me do this. No one else has volunteered. So, it looks like I am the one. Fel free to criticize, but do keep in mind that I did not seek out this role.
2) My only requirement, given that I am about to spend 2 days of my life on this project, is that the version that I come up with serve as the basis for future changes. (Obviously, any editor can change any aspect of what I write. But no editor can say, "I don't like this version, so there is no consensus, so I revert to the version of January 30, 2009." If you disagree with that plan, speak up now. No one has complained about this prerequisite when I have brought it up before.)
3) As I have mentioned before, I am not a fan of the data-centric approach nor of this outline. Indeed, I purposely made zero comments about it. That said, I am a big believer in building consensus, so I will do my best with what is there.
4) Request to Ludwig: Would you mind archiving everything from the talk page except the outline (and any votes of support for that outline) and this comment? I think that this would clean things up in a helpful fashion.
5) Request to everyone else: Please make any suggestions, comments, additions you like to the outline now. I will not start up until tomorrow morning.
6) Request to all: Please allow me the freedom to give it my best shot over the next two days. If you don't like what you see then: a) Please wait till the end. perhaps I will fix it. b) Make a comment/suggestion on the talk page. But please note that I will probably not have the time to reply to such suggestions given all the work that I will be doing on the article but that I will be reading everything that is written.
My plan is to do my best for two days and then step back from the debate. If everyone loves the article that I produce, then great! If not, then I will leave it to others to decide the best ways to improve it going forward.
Wish me luck! David.Kane ( talk) 19:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
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And here we go! If uninvolved editors start reverting my edits, I hope that editors involved in this mediation will revert them. David.Kane ( talk) 12:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
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I'm just going to reiterate that I think the drafting and reviewing should not be done in main space. This seems like a fairly reasonable way of doing things, and I don't understand why it's meeting with such resistance. Having stubs and material that has not been reviewed by most of the mediators seems to go against what mediation is about. This is especially true since many of the editors had strong concerns about weight, content, and bias issues. It really seems like the process is moving in a direction that will essentially nullify the work of mediation. A.Prock ( talk) 00:17, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
My comments: Obviously you’re under no obligation to use them. If you do, feel free to polish up the writing. I usually like to rewrite stuff many times before I am happy with how it reads, and I don’t have time to do that here. I will add to this as I get time to review each section.
INTRO I think you need a more introductory sentence: “R&I involves debate over the cause of the ubiquitous finding that self reports of race (SIRE) co-vary (often strongly) with scores on Intelligence (IQ) tests.”
Then, I would keep the brief statement on the three way race pattern (report means, as you do) and mention that the data have been reported and replicated ad naseum (especially the black-white difference) going back to World War I. “Although no one disputes the fact that IQ scores differ across SIRE, the cause of these differences is currently unknown. Various hypotheses have been proposed, ranging from the invalidity of both IQ and race as scientific constructs (cites), to completely environmental explanations (cites), to those that posit a genetic basis for at least some part of the gap (cites).
As discussed below, the issue is as important as it is controversial. The purpose of this stub is to review the data on SIRE and IQ, and the evidence for and against various explanations researchers have proposed to explain the gap. I think the “scientifically meaningless” section, as it reads now, should be changed or go in some other area—it’s not really introductory in nature. It could be the very next section (one where terms are defined. What is an IQ score; what is race, as measured in this research, etc?).
HISTORY
This needs fleshing out. One could mention Gould’s archaic criticisms of IQ tests used in immigration and the military in the early and mid 1900s. If you do mention this, not everyone agrees that Gould’s caricature is accurate. I could provide some rebuttal citations.
The more modern era began with Jensen’s 1968 (?) article, and carried on with the Bell Curve, Mismeasure, the APA statement, and now many of the more recent popular books on the topic. More modern research also uses other measures of intelligence (beside the paper and pencil IQ test), including elementary cognitive tasks and various measures of brain size and function. One thing that’s noteworthy, throughout all this, many academics have retreated to their Ivory towers to do research read mostly only by other people in field. It’s this research, really, that defines what the field knows and doesn’t (It’s this research that needs to be explained).
The “group differences in measures of intelligence” section seems redundant and appears to be hanging by itself. Perhaps delete it and go right to the data-gathering section? If this is meant to be an upper-level heading for an outline, then I think it needs a short paragraph describing all of the lower-level heading points that will be discussed in the section.
More later.
p.s. I will have time to discuss reactions to my thoughts here, but not until I am done with reviewing it, so please be patient.
Bpesta22 ( talk) 18:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
First, I would like to say that overall the draft seems to be an improvement over the previous steady state. It's certainly not perfect, and some of the sections need to be fully written, but in general the size and scope of the article seems much more manageable, the information is more direct, and there isn't any strong leaning one way or the other.
Second, I'm running short on time today, so I haven't gotten a chance to check every reference, or finely parse every word. In that sense I reserve the right to give more comments both high level and low level.
Specific comments:
I'd like to thank David.Kane for working on this. There is still a lot of work to be done, but overall this is much better place to work from than the previous version.
From my perspective, I think the best way to proceed would be for David.Kane to incorporate the reviews as he sees fits. If he doesn't have time for that, I would certainly support nominating another editor to incorporate review feedback. According to the artificial timeline, we've got more than a week to improve what is there before grim hand of WP descends. I think it would be great if we could recruit as many of the editors signed up for mediation to review and or comment on the current version, especially relative to the steady state that the article was in previously. A.Prock ( talk) 23:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
David: Thanks for your work here. You did a fine job. Take my comments with a grain of salt as the draft would likely need major revisions no matter who wrote it. I did not like the data gathering section, and so I suggest this. The writing needs polishing and citations have to be added:
Data gathering methods
Many types of IQ tests exist, and test items range from vocabulary to number series to measures of choice reaction time. Most “cognitive abilities tests” (e.g., the ASVAB; SAT; GRE; GMAT) also serve as good proxies for intelligence. Researchers often use scores from these tasks interchangeably as “IQ scores.”
The key measure in this research, however, is the inter-correlation among IQ test scores or test items. In general, people doing well on one type of item/test tend to do well on all types of items/tests, even very dissimilar ones (this is known in the literature as the “positive manifold”). The inter-correlation among test items can be calculated statistically, and this measure is considered to be Spearman’s g (general mental ability).
Research on SIRE and IQ scores has focused almost exclusively on race differences in g. Spearman’s hypothesis, for example, predicts that the size of the race gap will co-vary with how g-loaded a mental task is. This hypothesis has been born out repeatedly in the academic literature.
Independent of race, IQ test scores correlate moderately-to-strongly with performance in similar life tasks (high school and college grade point averages, and years of education). The correlation with some real-world results is less strong. For example, while the correlation between IQ and job performance is about .50, IQ is only moderately correlated with income and wealth (r = .33), and even less so with negative social outcomes like teenage pregnancy rates (r = -.19) and juvenile delinquency (r = -.19). However, when IQ scores are aggregated among groups of people (e.g., the 50 U.S. states, or 108 nations worldwide), correlations tend to increase significantly. Whereas IQ predicts teenage pregnancy rates among individuals at only r = -.19; the correlation aggregated across the 50 US states becomes r = -.71.
A fair summary of the predictive validity of IQ test scores is:
• IQ scores measure many, but not all of the qualities that people mean by intelligent or smart (for example, IQ does not measure creativity, wisdom, or personality). • IQ scores are fairly stable over much of a person's life. • IQ tests are predictive of school and job performance, to a degree that does not significantly vary by socio-economic status or racial-ethnic background. • For people living in the prevailing conditions of the developed world, cognitive ability is substantially heritable, and while the impact of family environment on the IQ of children is substantial, after adolescence this effect becomes difficult to detect.
Bpesta22 (
talk) 01:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Now that Dr. Pesta has offered his review about this, I guess I’ll offer mine also. I’d like to start by pointing out that I agree with him and Aprock that overall, this version of the article is an improvement, and I appreciate the time David.Kane has put into it. However, it definitely has the potential to be improved further.
I also agree with all of Dr. Pesta’s comments, particularly about fleshing out the “history” section and going into more detail about IQ’s predictive validity for groups. I’m assuming that the latter would be going in the “significance” section, so that’s something we ought to resume discussing soon.
I’ll list the rest of my suggestions in decreasing order of importance:
1: The most important problem I see with this article is that it leaves off several lines of data that those of us who supported Varoon Arya’s outline intended for the article to cover. This isn’t really David’s fault, since I know revising the article would have been easier if the outline itself had made it clear where these lines of data were intended to go. He would have needed to read the entire “eventual page structure” discussion in order to see where these things were intended to go. I can summarize it, though:
2: A lot of the lines of data that are covered in the article are described in so little detail that readers aren’t presented with any information about what the data actually is, or how it relates to the topics of race and IQ. I know length is a consideration here, but so is making the article informative. Here are a few examples of what I’m talking about:
Education has a complicated relationship with intelligence; it is both a dependent and independent variable. On the one hand, those who did better on intelligence tests in their childhood tend to have a lower drop out rate, and complete more years of school, therefore making intelligence a predictive factor of how well someone will succeed in schooling. However, on the other hand, education has been shown to improve a person’s performance on these intelligence tests, from a very young age.
Okay, but what’s the data about how quality of education varies between races, and how much this affects IQ?
Several studies performed without the use of DNA-based ancestry estimation attempted to correlate estimates of African or European ancestry with IQ. These studies have been variously regarded as inconclusive, supportive of an environmental interpretation, or supportive of a hereditarian interpretation. These studies are generally criticized for using unreliable methods to estimate ancestry and for their small sample sizes.
Again, what are the actual results from these studies? The point of using a data-centric interpretation is that we present the actual results, rather than just saying how people interpreted them.
These are two examples of the problem, but it exists for almost all of the lines of data discussed here. The “health and nutrition”, “physiology” and “genetics” sections don’t discuss any of the data about whether and to what extent these traits vary between races, and the “discrimination” section doesn’t mention how discrimination can affect IQ. I think our goal for this article ought to be that it should explain how each of these lines of data play into the larger debate over the cause of the IQ difference, rather than just mentioning (as the current article does) that these lines of data exist.
As I said, the current version of article is better than the one we had a few months ago, because the earlier version didn’t even mention the existence of a lot of this data. But there’s still a lot of room for improvement here.
3: My last suggestion, other than the fact that we still need to add the “significance” section, is that both the “environmental interpretations” and “hereditarian interpretations” sections ought to include the most popular arguments for both of these positions. For example, one of the most oft-cited arguments for the environmental position is that white and mixed-race children performed about equally on cognitive tests in the Eyferth study, but the article doesn’t mention this study at all. Similarly, one of the most commonly-mentioned arguments in favor of the hereditarian position is that it’s able to make specific and testable predictions about the results of studies, such as that the IQ gap would shrink only slightly when SES is adjusted for and that the size of the IQ difference would correlate with the size of ancestry difference in racial admixture studies, whereas the environmental model generally can’t make these sorts of predictions without proposing a specific environmental factor as a cause. I know this is another place where length is an issue, but I also think explaining the arguments for each position is at least as important as the lengthy explanations for within-group and between-group heritability that are currently presented in both of these sections, which probably ought to go much earlier in the “group differences in in measures of intelligence” section anyway.
In any case, I don’t think we should be afraid to make the article a little longer in order to accommodate some of this data. In its present state it’s only 44 KB; we could probably make it as much as twice as long without it being a problem.
Again, thanks for all the work you’ve put into this article already, David, and I hope you won’t mind making some of these additional changes. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 12:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Because:
I'm not putting my contribution on the discussion page first because:
YOU CAN'T DELETE A SOURCED, NPOV CONTRIBUTION WITHOUT SAYING WHY HERE. I agree with rubenstein:
I also agree with mathsci:
I even agree with Ludwig, who said to wanaponda:
Now, this time, let's have a discussion about whether this data should be included. If my sourced, Pesta-approved contribution AND my attempt to discuss it are deleted again, I'm making a formal complaint at WP:ANI, which I believe is legitimate since the moderator is doing it. TechnoFaye Kane 17:39, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
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Perhaps it is my own lack of experience with Wikipedia, but I find this statement by MathSci to be confusing and, perhaps, threatening.
0) Is this a true statement? Did the mediation committee, in some sort of formal vote, decide that our mediation had to end? I don't think so. I think that a single editor decided, without seeking input from all the participants in the mediation, that the mediation should end. Am I wrong? 1) Since both MathSci and Xavexgoem have been involved in the debate over this article, I would expect them to recuse themselves from any decisions made by a higher authority like the mediation committee. Am I incorrect that this would be standard practice? 2) There is nothing in WP:M which suggests that a mediation process can or should be ended by fiat. If the vast majority (all?) of the participants in the mediation feel that progress is being made, then why would anyone seek to end the process? 3) Even if the formal mediation process were to end, I (and, I hope) others will continue to make this article better. In doing so, we will need to work together, compromise and so on. It sure seems like the current process, with Ludwig acting as an honest broker, has helped to facilitate that. So, is there any problem with us working that way in the future (assuming that we, as the group of active editors involved in the article) want to? 4) Is MathSci really threatening me/us with imposing editing restrictions? Just what actions on my part would lead to such restrictions? David.Kane ( talk) 14:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
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I think DJ or David Kane adding to the article or making those changes that A.Prock and Bryan Pesta agree on is an excellent next step, along with Varoon Arya's proposal to tweak MathSci's improved introduction. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Presently the section on interpretations was not rewritten by David Kane. All other sections and subsections in the article have no more than three paragraphs and all but one have either one or two paragraphs. For consistency, I suggest the same should apply to the interpretations subsections. To do so, we would need to determine the most important arguments for the environmental and hereditarian interpretations and summarize them in 1-2 paragraphs. This is a possible outline
Interpretations
Wapondaponda ( talk) 17:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
I have some issues:
Environmental interpretations
* Most important argument - environmental factors are uncontroversially known to influence IQ. Known factors include health, education and socioeconomic environment
It's quite possible that the causality is wrong here. It could be that IQ causes health, education and environment. I personally believe it's bi-directional. I think people create their environments-- mostly-- and not vice versa.
This is true of "shared environments," especially, in my world view. Non-shared stuff is likely a bigger influence (your excellent teachers; my lead poisoning). But, this interpretation is empty as an explanation for the gap in that the burden's on environmentalists to show that when variables(s) are controlled the gap is explained. So far, that's not been done. Granted "the environment" is complex, but kitchen sink variables have been controlled repeatedly and no factor x's have yet to emerge.
Criticism - Hereditarians argue that controlling for environmental factors reduces but does not eliminate the BW gap
* Response to criticism - Environmentalists argue that it is not possible to control for all environmental factors. For example the environmental cause of the Flynn effect has not been specifically identified
The Flynn effect, as far as I know, has never been shown to co-vary with the gap (nor is it a g effect). It cannot be the explanation if it affects all races equally and is independent of g.
But, I do agree the burden is also on the gene people to define race scientifically / genetically and then show it explains the gap. That has not been done. That to me is the strongest criticism of the race people.
Bpesta22 ( talk) 18:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
You have data showing a direct effect of environment on IQ (with the direction of the cause untangled) which when controlled explains the gap?
184.59.172.151 (
talk) 01:13, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
You may be able to get some ideas from the old version of the article/s, which are now on the Psychology Wiki. [3] [4] -- Horse wiz ( talk) 22:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Seeing that the mediation is in limbo, I have made the following proposal, which if implemented, might help restore confidence to the mediation.
Wapondaponda ( talk) 23:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
@David, as I have mentioned before, in a mediation, progress is not measured by the consensus of already like minded editors, it is measured by the consensus of disputing parties. If you have been following, I have disputed many of the suggestions that you are currently implementing from as far back as February. The only thing that has happened is that those in opposition have seen there numbers decrease, and those in favor have had their numbers increase. Mediation is not necessary for Captain Occam, Varoon and TechnoFaye etc to come to an agreement. If they were the only ones watching the article, there would be no Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race and Intelligence. @Bpesta, As for derailing this mediation, there are no deadlines on wikipedia. If this mediation is to be a real mediation, and not a straw man, it needs the support from those those on the other side of the dispute. Wapondaponda ( talk) 05:34, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Mathsci ( talk) 10:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
As for Varoon's outline, I consider it a step in the right direction but I do not consider it perfect. Several of Muntuwandi's points are pretty reasonable and I wish Varoon could accommodate them.Slrubenstein
If you, Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi don’t want to put regression in your outline, then just don’t. It isn’t worth the amount of time it would require for me to convince all three of you that you should include this data, when it’s already obvious that we’ll be using Varoon Arya’s outline rather than yours if you don’t.
So I can pretty much guarantee that as long as Varoon Arya’s proposed outline includes this line of data, and Muntuwandi’s doesn’t, mikemikev, VA, DJ, David.Kane and I are all going to prefer VA’s outline over Muntuwandi’s. If Muntuwandi wants his outline to be favored, he is the one who will need to compromise here. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
We are seeking mediation to come up with ONE outline for the article. In the end there is no "my outline" versus "your outline," there is just the outline we will use. And if you do not understand what regression to the mean is, then I advise you to listen to people who do, in devising the outline we will use for this article. Slrubenstein Talk 11:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't have an outline. Most of the feedback I've given has been with respect to VA's outline. This process isn't going to resolve itself by presenting two different outlines and then picking one. If we can't come to a consensus about the outline, it's difficult to see how this will proceed in any sort of timely manner. And again, your "my way or the highway" attitude really isn't productive in terms of reaching consensus. A.Prock (talk) 18:44, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I am not happy with this conversation. As far as I can see, it is a distraction from the task of building the article, and not useful to the article in any way, shape, or form. There is no point in rehashing past issues when we have more pressing problems facing us.
Wapondaponda, Mathsci - please contribute concrete suggestions for revising the draft, or specific concerns or complaints about the draft as it is that you would like to see addressed. Until you do so, and until you make a decent effort towards working with the current article, the topics of moving the draft to a subpage or restarting discussions about the outline are strictly off-limits; I will archive any further discussions of that nature. We can revisit the issues if-and-when it becomes clear that there is a need to.
I am not going to allow the process of improving the article to be sidetracked by an extended conversation that has no value to the encyclopedia or the article whatsoever. Help it move forward, don't help it move forward; that is your choice. We are not going to move backwards. -- Ludwigs2 15:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Wapondaponda: Fair enough your comments re consensus. My confusion stems from the fact that reality isn't determined by consensus vote-- neither really is science. Scientists don't change their minds or world views (or accept that the body of knowledge in their areas are indeed facts) by voting on it. Rather, one needs so much data on x that denying x would be absurd. The level of data required increases massively when x is controversial.
But, we have massive data on x. It would be absurd to deny x. The explanation for x is hotly debated, and so all sides should be presented. Wiki should aim to present a balanced treatment of all this (constrained by what experts in the field currently see as answered / unanswered issues). It seems like that's what's being done here. Kudoos to Ludwig and most all participants for keeping this level headed. I've had these debates online for about 20 years now. It could be partly a recency effect but I cannot remember the last time I have discussed this where all participants argued the points versus attacked each other. That has been remarkable here, based on my experience elsewhere.
Given the time constraints on this project, I hope to read the new outline today or tomorrow and provide peer review. Bpesta22 ( talk) 15:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
@Ludwigs, I have no intention of dragging this out indefinitely, there are other interesting articles that need attention. I have a specific concern. You have allowed Occam and co. to steam roll over other editors, and to basically say, because we are more than you, what you say doesn't matter. In light of this, how can we trust any future concerns will be given due consideration. By favoring one side, you have contributed to an atmosphere of distrust, which is likely to harm future efforts at reaching a consensus. I would like very much to get back to discussing content, but I have concerns about the current process. Wapondaponda ( talk) 16:27, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
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Aryaman: I accept that your post is in good faith, but I'd still ask you to go back and refactor some of the more pointed comments (I'm thinking of things like the line "all the other editors some here are trying to lump together as a cabal..." I really would like, as much as possible, to keep to a 'no comments about other editors' rule, at least wherever such a comment might be viewed as an interpretation of that editor's behavior. interpreting other people's behavior is unavoidable, of course, but where you need to do so, please make interpretations in the spirit of wp:AGF. In the case you mentioned, for instance, all you need to do is offer a reminder. they make an argument, you respond with a source, and if they don't respond you may assume (in goof faith) that they have accepted your point as is. If they then make the same argument again, simply say something like: "I'm sorry, I thought you had agreed with this point above, when I presented this source - (source X). are you saying now that you disagree?" That way, if they have forgotten the source they can say 'Oh, yeah...', or if they missed your reply above and still disagree, then they can respond to the point now. There's no need to re-argue the point - assume that other editors are responsible and responsive, but human (and so error-prone), and just point them back to missed material when and where you have to. if it becomes a protracted problem, let me know, but I suspect it's just a matter of keeping track of the mass of material on the page. -- Ludwigs2 19:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC) |
For the long-term stability of the article, I still believe it is important to discuss procedural issues. As Mathsci has pointed out, we are now in the sixth calendar month of this mediation. Many of us are getting burned out by this mediation. However, it seems that some editors may have an insatiable appetite for the minutiae of this topic. We still have some problems. Many editors have praised David Kane's version. I am particularly pleased that the article is not too long. But some editors may be unhappy about this because they believe a lot has been left out. So it looks like we are in for an extended dispute. My specific concern is over-editing and over-discussing. The R&I talk page has over 74 archive pages. Pretty much whatever has been discussed in this mediation, has been discussed before in some way. Furthermore, since R&I is a highly controversial article, many discussions are heated often deteriorating into incivility, sarcasm and personal attacks. I think most neutrals would agree that an extended dispute would be unproductive. It is totally inappropriate if this article continues to consume all or much of our wiki-time in the future. There has been frequent discussions of single purpose editing and article ownership. I am of the opinion that one or two super-dedicated editors can effectively set the pace of discussion simply by trying to make controversial edits, and in the process, drag a several other editors into a lengthy dispute. When the mediation ends in about a week, disputes will move back to the talk page. The R&I article should be considered a chronic problem and should be managed as such. I would place R&I in the Wikipedia's top ten most controversial articles, thus it shouldn't be treated like any other article. Consequently, I definitely see the need for procedural or administrative intervention, not to enforce a POV, but to stabilize the revision history. So here are a couple of suggestions, On content, we have three choices
The interpretations section is pretty much what existed before and is out of sync with the rest of the article, I would suggest summarizing each of the sub-sections to no more than two average sized paragraphs. Whatever version that is selected at the end of the mediation, the article needs some administrative intervention. Either the article could be placed on probation, or the article needs to be fully protected. Unless there is a paradigm shifting event that takes place, there is no need to urgently edit anything into the article. If there is anything missing from the article, we can simply place links to publications that contain the missing information in the "Further information" or "External links" subsections. Finally topic bans should remain an option if single purpose editing or article ownership becomes a problem. Wapondaponda ( talk) 04:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
"Since the introduction of intelligence tests in the early twentieth century and their use by the US army and policy makers, the connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in the media and populist literature. Historically IQ tests in the US revealed disparities between different population groups, with the average score for African Americans being several points below that of White Americans. In the academic world, however, there are no simplistic definitions of either race or intelligence: the study of population groups is carried out by anthropologists and sociologists; the genetic mechanism of heritability is studied by biologists; and the general theory of intelligence testing is subsumed within the subject of psychometry. Many factors have been put forward to explain the gap in IQ scores, which has changed systematically over the years. It is generally accepted that environmental factors affect individual scores. What has sparked the most recent debate has been the controversial claim by a group of psychiatrists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that there is a predominantly genetic basis for the lower IQ scores and that accordingly certain races are inherently more intelligent than others. This claim has not been accepted within mainstream science."
Mathsci ( talk) 08:01, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
On the whole, I like Mathsci's summary. There are a few minor details which I would like to modify and/or tweak, though, and I'd be more than willing to discuss those with Mathsci and other editors in the hopes of ironing out a good lead to the article. This section, however, is probably not the best place to do that. As soon as Ludwigs gives the green light, I'd be ready to make some minor suggestions on this. -- Aryaman (talk) 12:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
(mediator note - I have refactored bpesta's comments here from where he placed it at the end of the document, and reindented appropriately)-- Ludwigs2 17:24, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
In the following, I have followed Mathsci's original suggestion in the main, though I have also taken BPesta's suggestion into consideration. I've tried to reduce the text down to what is absolutely necessary. I hope the reasons for both my changes (e.g. "populist literature" (?) > " popular science") and my omissions (e.g. removal of the list of which disciplines do what) are sufficiently transparent to everyone so as not to require a detailed explanation. If not, however, I can provide such upon request. I expect additional changes to be made, and I would appreciate them most if they were undertaken by editors who have not yet voiced their opinion on this matter. UPDATE: I have modified the text to accommodate objections raised by Mathsci, David.Kane and Captain Occam below.
Since the inception of intelligence testing in the early twentieth century, the connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and the media, particularly in the United States, where the results of such testing has been used to shape public policy. Intelligence quotient (IQ) tests performed in the US have consistently demonstrated a significant degree of variation between different racial groups, with the average score of the African American population being significantly lower - and that of the Asian American population being significantly higher - than that of the White American population. Similar findings have been reported for related populations around the world, though these are generally considered far less reliable due to the difficulty inherent in the cross-cultural comparison of intelligence test scores.
There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and the discussion of their connection involves the results of multiple disciplines, including biology, anthropology, sociology, and psychology. Many factors possessing the potential to influence the development of intelligence have been advanced as possible causes of the racial IQ gap which, though subject to variation over time, has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began. It is generally agreed that environmental and/or cultural factors affect individual IQ scores, and it is widely assumed that most or all of the racial IQ gap is attributable to such factors, though none are conclusively supported by direct empirical support.
Far more controversial is the claim advanced by several psychologists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap is not explained by appeals to any known environmental factors, and that this portion has an ultimately genetic origin. This claim has not been accepted by the wider academic community and has been met with widespread disapproval in the popular media. Official statements by academic bodies such as the American Psychological Association indicate that the cause of the racial IQ gap is currently unknown.
-- Aryaman (talk) 19:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Straw Poll: Please comment on the revision to the lead proposed above. Give a yes, no, or almost, and indicate (briefly) what if anything needs to be changed in it. If there is a general thumbs up from the other participants (the three who noted their agreement above do not need to do so again) then we can edit it in. -- Ludwigs2 15:50, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Ludwigs2, can we wait until Arya has tweaked it? He has expressed a desire to make some changes, and mathsci recognizes the need for some improvement; I think we'd all be better off being polled on what MathSci and Varoon agree with. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment The editing of wikipedia articles is never decided by poll, but by the quality of edits. Here is no exception. People should not vote but make constructive suggestions: that is the usual way that wikipedia is edited (given its peculiar editing rules). As this article gradually returns in the next few days to being edited normally in mainspace and mediation is brought to a close, we should use the normal procedures for editing articles. At the moment editors previously assumed to have polarized viewpoints are now in agreement. I find this outcome extremely positive - and surprising :) Please, let's make the most of it! Mathsci ( talk) 18:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
Aryaman. I like your version and think the lede is good to go.
Bpesta22 (
talk) 21:42, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that VAs lede is OK, but in order to be clearly better than mine, I would like to see some things fixed. I have not thought hard enough about just how they should be fixed to have an informed opinion.
Of course, I am not an objective judge of the current lead and I agree with many of the criticism made about it above by MathSci and others. David.Kane ( talk) 23:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
The connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and the media since the inception of intelligence testing in the early twentieth century, particularly in the United States.
Race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and the media since the inception of intelligence testing in the early twentieth century, particularly in the United States.
Similar findings have been reported for related populations around the world, though these are generally considered far less reliable due to the difficulty inherent in the cross-cultural comparison of intelligence test scores.
Comment: I'm fine with VA's version of the outline except for the last paragraph:
Far more controversial is the claim advanced by several psychologists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap is not explained by appeals to any known environmental factors, and that this portion has an ultimately genetic origin. This claim has not been accepted by the wider academic community and has been met with widespread disapproval in the popular media.
This implies that the wider academic community has not accepted either the idea that the IQ gap is partly genetic or the idea that no currently known environmental factors are enough to explain it. This is probably true in the first case, but it's not true in the second--for example, the APA report mentions that nobody has yet provided a well-supported explanation of its cause. In this respect, Jensen and Rushton are in agreement with the APA.
I would suggest changing the last two paragraphs say something like this:
There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and the discussion of their connection involves the results of multiple disciplines, including biology, anthropology, sociology, and psychology. Many factors possessing the potential to influence the development of intelligence have been advanced as possible causes of the racial IQ gap which, though subject to variation over time, has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began. It is generally agreed that environmental factors affect individual IQ scores, and it is widely assumed that most or all of the racial IQ gap is attributable to such factors, but no specific environmental factor been has identified as a definitive cause.
The current consensus among researchers who study the racial IQ gap is that data are insufficient to identify its cause. Far more controversial is the claim advanced by several psychologists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap has an ultimately genetic origin. This claim has not been accepted by the wider academic community and has been met with widespread disapproval in the popular media.
If you want to alter this phrasing to take other users' suggestions into consideration, that's fine with me also. The important thing is that we distinguish between the idea that no specific environmental factor has been identified that can clearly explain the IQ gap, which is the opinion of Jensen and Rushton as well as the APA; and the opinion that the gap is partly genetic, which is accepted by a much smaller group of people. Also, let's not forget about DJ's proposed lede. Perhaps we could get some ideas from that also. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 04:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment I have been WP:BOLD and incorporated Varoon Arya's lede into the article, where it can be edited directly. I have incorporated the suggestions of David.Kane, by inverting the order of the first sentence. I have included Bpesta22's suggestion about the use of the test by industrialists, adding also the US army, educationalists and policy makers. I have included a neutral version of the sentence about internationalization. I have NOT added the phrase "some races are inherently more or less intelligent than others". I suggest that changes to the lede now should be discussed not here, but on the talk page, so that users not involved in mediation can participate. Thanks, Mathsci ( talk)
Occam has raised the point that the introduction should mention that the dominant position as summarized by the APA is one of agnosticism, e.g. that the cause of the IQ gap is not known, as well as that cultural/environmental explanations, though favourable, lack sufficient empirical support. The APA report makes specific mention of this twice:
The cause of [the IQ] differential is not known; it is apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the content or administration of the tests themselves. The Flynn effect shows that environmental factors can produce differences of at least this magnitude, but that effect is mysterious in its own right. Several culturally based explanations of the Black/ White IQ differential have been proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate explanation of the differential between the IQ means of Blacks and Whites is presently available.
And again:
The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support. There is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation. At present, no one knows what causes this differential.
It is justified to interpret this as an important conclusion of the APA report, and it has been repeated in more recent work, such as that of Bartholomew (2004). I find it hard, therefore, to dismiss Occam's concern as POV-pushing. While the APA report distinguishes environmental explanations as either "plausible" or "appropriate", it clearly states that they are weak in the way of direct emprical support. I think the last sentence in the first paragraph of Occam's proposal summarizes this situation in neutral language.
I do object to the phrase "some races are inherently more or less intelligent that others" on the grounds that Jensen & Rushton distance themselves from such a claim. Talk of any "inherent features" of races - let alone intelligence - is entirely outdated, and does not reflect the hereditarian position. As they write:
Heritability describes what is the genetic contribution to individual differences in a particular population at a particular time, not what could be. If either the genetic or the environmental influences change (e.g., due to migration, greater educational opportunity, better nutrition), then the relative impact of genes and environment will change. Heritability has nothing to say about what should be. If a trait has a high heritability it does not mean that it cannot be changed. Environmental change is possible. [...] The fact that the heritability of IQ is between 0.50 and 0.80 does not mean that individual differences are fixed and permanent. It does tell us that some individuals are genetically predisposed to be more teachable, more trainable, and more capable of changing than others, under current conditions.
I dropped the phrase because I find it both unnecessary as well as incorrect and/or misleading.
I have made adjustments to the proposal according to various suggestions made above. -- Aryaman (talk) 09:21, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I've followed Mathsci's lead and have continued to make additions to the lead itself, most notably to reflect Muntuwandi's concerns. Are we moving this discussion to the talkpage now? -- Aryaman (talk) 10:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I note that David.Kane removed the names of Jensen, Rushton and Lynn from the lede without discussion. The controversy revolves around the work of these psychologists and their collaborators. There is no corresponding group of psychologists spending their time researching the environmental explanation of the racial IQ gap. That is why it is important to mention their names in the lede. If their names were not mentioned it would be absolutely necessary to write that only a limited number of psychologists have promoted this point of view. The unqualified phrase was an example of WP:UNDUE, so I have restored the names. Mathsci ( talk) 14:04, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
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