Please write an opening statement, which discusses both (i) the individualized disputes at hand and (ii) your opinion towards resolving those disputes.
Please follow the following guidelines in writing your statements:
Additionally, please remember to watchlist this page so you are up-to-date on the status of the discussions here. Lord Roem ( talk) 17:20, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Canada is a Constitutional Monarchy. The current monarch is the queen. The queen's anthem is "God Save the Queen". However that's where it ends. Most Canadians do not sing "God Save the Queen" at functions or events. It is reserved for a few special events. Just because official bodies in Canada such as parliament, legislatures, or military bodies perform it in honour of the monarch or for some other reason does not change the fact that it has no special legal status in Canada, unlike the Canadian anthem. In short, it's a specific song used for specific occasions and has no more special status in Canada than other songs used for specific events such as "Happy Birthday" or a sports team's official song. In fact, those latter songs may have more legal status in Canada: "Happy Birthday" enjoys copyright protection for instance. In short, since it has no legal status in Canada, it should not be included. -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 18:16, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
The template in question is one that's a navbox for Canadian music. Since 1 September 2004, it has included the Canadian national anthem, " O Canada". I added the Canadian royal anthem, " God Save the Queen", on 26 June 2010. It was my thinking then that it was inconsistent to include one official, "state" song - the national anthem - but exclude others - the royal anthem (and possibly the viceregal salute, being the only other two of which I'm aware, though there may be more). I maintain that position today.
It's my strong feeling that it is of no relevance to this matter that Canada's royal anthem is not designated as such by statute law (as the national anthem is) or order-in-council. If we look at the United Kingdom for an example, we see that neither law nor order makes the Union Jack the British national flag nor "God Save the Queen" the British national anthem, yet nobody denies that banner and that song are officially the national flag and national anthem, respectively. This is analogous to the status of "God Save the Queen" in Canada; the parliament of Canada approved "God Save the Queen" as the royal anthem in 1967 [1] and today the government of Canada (including the Cabinet, Department of Canadian Heritage, the Canadian Forces, etc.) has designated and uses it as the royal anthem of Canada; the CF has regulations regarding when the royal anthem is to be played and even what version has been decreed by the Queen to be used; [2] the DCH states: "[it] is performed officially in Canada in the presence of members of the Royal Family, and as part of the Salute accorded to the Governor General and Lieutenant Governors [emphasis mine]." [3]
It therefore is the official royal anthem of Canada.
However, that said, there is a question of whether or not any anthem or official state song should be included in a template that focuses mostly on regional music, culture, genres, and awards. My inclination is that anthems should be included, but could be convinced that they don't belong at all.
Additionally, there is the procedural matter of maintaining the status quo until a consensus for change is reached. "God Save the Queen" remained in the template for some 19 months and, when its place there was challenged periodically by the one same editor, it each time subsequently received support from other editors, both by being quickly restored to the template and by expressed opinions at the talk page. It should thus now be returned to the template and left until a decision on what to do with it is reached via this dispute resolution process (which has been taken here to MedCab only because the RfC resulted in an absolute tie). -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 03:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Personally, I neither support or oppose the inclusion of GSTQ. I can see a reason for inclusion: I've heard it played 'every year' following Oh Canada at the Remberance Day services & both songs were played at my high school graduation. I can also see a reason for exclusion: Canada rightly/wrongly is seen along with 14 other Commonwealth realms as being less associated with their respective monarchies, when compared to the UK association with its monarchy. Thus GSTQ has a secondary status within Canada. GoodDay ( talk) 05:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Canada has one legal anthem, O'Canada. All other unofficial anthem, songs, salutes, hymns, etc. do not belong in this template or the infobox in the Canada article.
Let's begin our discussions here with a general idea of what should be in the template. What sort of standard should be placed on inclusion of anything?
Please look to other similar templates across the WP for your arguments. Be civil, and...begin!
Lord Roem (
talk)
02:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't seem like this process is going to break the deadlock on the template. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Whoa whoa whoa! I leave for a few hours and mass text blocks of discussion ensue! Let's get this straight -- this is not a vote. I would ask those opposing the viewpoint we discussed above (broad non-inclusion of anthems) to present a bullet-ed list of reasons. This will ensure there is some structure to our discussion. Lord Roem ( talk) 22:05, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Since other articles included national anthems it seems that's not going to fly. I have yet to hear a cogent argument for the inclusion of "God Save the Queen". I have heard that its because some sang it in school before it was removed as an official anthem. The closest I've heard for its inclusion is that we have a monarch and so we should include the monarch's anthem. Is that honestly the reason? -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 21:28, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't think anyone can argue that Oh Canada is the anthem that's more associated with Canada. GSTQ, is more associated with the United Kingdom. GoodDay ( talk) 18:57, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I have an idea on gathering evidence for each side before we get into nitty gritty stuff. If parties could look to other templates like 'Music of Canada', to see if there exists a 'norm' of sorts for such templates, that would be very helpful. Lord Roem ( talk) 02:23, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
There is no similar Template:UK music, it's a nav box, but it does list GSTQ as the national anthem.
Most other commonwealth countries do not have a template. Did not check all countries of the world. The templates above are mostly for non-monarchies and so they obviously do not list a . In short, it's not a good idea to remove the national anthem and since most commonwealth nations that have HRH as head of state do not list "GSTQ" so we would be setting a precedent. The article on Australia only has a note indicating that it's the royal anthem. It's not in template at the top of the page. Granted, they have stronger republican tendencies. In summary, it seems that it would be an imposition on this template as well. --
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
17:27, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Please write an opening statement, which discusses both (i) the individualized disputes at hand and (ii) your opinion towards resolving those disputes.
Please follow the following guidelines in writing your statements:
Additionally, please remember to watchlist this page so you are up-to-date on the status of the discussions here. Lord Roem ( talk) 17:20, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Canada is a Constitutional Monarchy. The current monarch is the queen. The queen's anthem is "God Save the Queen". However that's where it ends. Most Canadians do not sing "God Save the Queen" at functions or events. It is reserved for a few special events. Just because official bodies in Canada such as parliament, legislatures, or military bodies perform it in honour of the monarch or for some other reason does not change the fact that it has no special legal status in Canada, unlike the Canadian anthem. In short, it's a specific song used for specific occasions and has no more special status in Canada than other songs used for specific events such as "Happy Birthday" or a sports team's official song. In fact, those latter songs may have more legal status in Canada: "Happy Birthday" enjoys copyright protection for instance. In short, since it has no legal status in Canada, it should not be included. -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 18:16, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
The template in question is one that's a navbox for Canadian music. Since 1 September 2004, it has included the Canadian national anthem, " O Canada". I added the Canadian royal anthem, " God Save the Queen", on 26 June 2010. It was my thinking then that it was inconsistent to include one official, "state" song - the national anthem - but exclude others - the royal anthem (and possibly the viceregal salute, being the only other two of which I'm aware, though there may be more). I maintain that position today.
It's my strong feeling that it is of no relevance to this matter that Canada's royal anthem is not designated as such by statute law (as the national anthem is) or order-in-council. If we look at the United Kingdom for an example, we see that neither law nor order makes the Union Jack the British national flag nor "God Save the Queen" the British national anthem, yet nobody denies that banner and that song are officially the national flag and national anthem, respectively. This is analogous to the status of "God Save the Queen" in Canada; the parliament of Canada approved "God Save the Queen" as the royal anthem in 1967 [1] and today the government of Canada (including the Cabinet, Department of Canadian Heritage, the Canadian Forces, etc.) has designated and uses it as the royal anthem of Canada; the CF has regulations regarding when the royal anthem is to be played and even what version has been decreed by the Queen to be used; [2] the DCH states: "[it] is performed officially in Canada in the presence of members of the Royal Family, and as part of the Salute accorded to the Governor General and Lieutenant Governors [emphasis mine]." [3]
It therefore is the official royal anthem of Canada.
However, that said, there is a question of whether or not any anthem or official state song should be included in a template that focuses mostly on regional music, culture, genres, and awards. My inclination is that anthems should be included, but could be convinced that they don't belong at all.
Additionally, there is the procedural matter of maintaining the status quo until a consensus for change is reached. "God Save the Queen" remained in the template for some 19 months and, when its place there was challenged periodically by the one same editor, it each time subsequently received support from other editors, both by being quickly restored to the template and by expressed opinions at the talk page. It should thus now be returned to the template and left until a decision on what to do with it is reached via this dispute resolution process (which has been taken here to MedCab only because the RfC resulted in an absolute tie). -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 03:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Personally, I neither support or oppose the inclusion of GSTQ. I can see a reason for inclusion: I've heard it played 'every year' following Oh Canada at the Remberance Day services & both songs were played at my high school graduation. I can also see a reason for exclusion: Canada rightly/wrongly is seen along with 14 other Commonwealth realms as being less associated with their respective monarchies, when compared to the UK association with its monarchy. Thus GSTQ has a secondary status within Canada. GoodDay ( talk) 05:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Canada has one legal anthem, O'Canada. All other unofficial anthem, songs, salutes, hymns, etc. do not belong in this template or the infobox in the Canada article.
Let's begin our discussions here with a general idea of what should be in the template. What sort of standard should be placed on inclusion of anything?
Please look to other similar templates across the WP for your arguments. Be civil, and...begin!
Lord Roem (
talk)
02:45, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't seem like this process is going to break the deadlock on the template. -- Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Whoa whoa whoa! I leave for a few hours and mass text blocks of discussion ensue! Let's get this straight -- this is not a vote. I would ask those opposing the viewpoint we discussed above (broad non-inclusion of anthems) to present a bullet-ed list of reasons. This will ensure there is some structure to our discussion. Lord Roem ( talk) 22:05, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Since other articles included national anthems it seems that's not going to fly. I have yet to hear a cogent argument for the inclusion of "God Save the Queen". I have heard that its because some sang it in school before it was removed as an official anthem. The closest I've heard for its inclusion is that we have a monarch and so we should include the monarch's anthem. Is that honestly the reason? -- Walter Görlitz ( talk) 21:28, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't think anyone can argue that Oh Canada is the anthem that's more associated with Canada. GSTQ, is more associated with the United Kingdom. GoodDay ( talk) 18:57, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I have an idea on gathering evidence for each side before we get into nitty gritty stuff. If parties could look to other templates like 'Music of Canada', to see if there exists a 'norm' of sorts for such templates, that would be very helpful. Lord Roem ( talk) 02:23, 1 April 2012 (UTC)
There is no similar Template:UK music, it's a nav box, but it does list GSTQ as the national anthem.
Most other commonwealth countries do not have a template. Did not check all countries of the world. The templates above are mostly for non-monarchies and so they obviously do not list a . In short, it's not a good idea to remove the national anthem and since most commonwealth nations that have HRH as head of state do not list "GSTQ" so we would be setting a precedent. The article on Australia only has a note indicating that it's the royal anthem. It's not in template at the top of the page. Granted, they have stronger republican tendencies. In summary, it seems that it would be an imposition on this template as well. --
Walter Görlitz (
talk)
17:27, 2 April 2012 (UTC)