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Originally moved from Talk:Yugi Mutou.
Yu-Gi-Oh! is serialized in the U.S. Shonen Jump. As the magazine uses circumflexes instead of macrons, Yu-Gi-Oh! related articles should use circumflexes in place of macrons. WhisperToMe 20:48, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Shonen Jump is not an encyclopedia, and has different standards. You're probably right about Anna Kyoyama: use of circumflexes where they are actually present in the most popular romanization of the names is likely the best way to go. Nonetheless, actual Japanese text (especially as here, where the localization with which the reader will most likely be familiar is a translation rather than a romanization) should always be glossed using Hepburn as described in the manual of style. -- Aponar Kestrel 22:11, 2004 Jul 26 (UTC)
Oh, and as for a reference:
In addition, Viz spells Yû Watase's name as "Yû Watase" in all of the works she has done. WhisperToMe 23:59, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have an idea on how to resolve this:
And the rest default to macrons. WhisperToMe 00:59, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
One more note, in the case of Shaman King and One Piece, I may revert to MOS style because so far, I have not seen circumflexes used in either actual manga. When a friend of mine returns, I will ask him to check up on those two to see if circumflexes are used in the actual manga. WhisperToMe 02:14, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
WTM, Kyôyama and Kyōyama are the same thing, two near-identical renderings of the same Japanese word in English. This should be patently obvious to even the densest anime geek, who is unlikely to have an apoplexy because he types "Anna Kyoyama" into Wikipedia and is greeted with a macron instead of a circumflex. Why, precisely, do we need to repeat two identical forms? What value would this add?
And for your information, I've been speaking American English since the ripe old age of nine months, and I fully agree that men doesn't wear panties, even when discussing diacritics in kids' cartoons. The reason these arguments tend to degenerate into ad hominem is that, in this discussion as in so many before, your side consists of well, you, and everybody else disagrees! Pattern or remarkable coincidence? Jpatokal 05:23, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I KNOW it's the same thing - I know it. You didn't ask for why I am doing this: if people really want macrons in the article, then this is how should go. The information from that macron is "This it is how academically spelled".
If anything, those that agree with me aren't posting. If you want me to, I'll rouse them and they'll come on here. WhisperToMe 06:03, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This is about you because it's inextricably connected to you. No other user messes with Japan-related articles like you do, and you're the only one promoting this ridiculous thing. Exploding Boy 06:55, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
And yes, JP, I apologize for editing your comments like that. WhisperToMe 07:40, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Fine. Here's the issue: Why do we need to include the circumflex? What value would this add? What value is lost if we use macrons?'
Can you answer my questions? Jpatokal 08:19, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I apologize for breaking in here. This conversation has become very long and complex, and as a person that occasionally touches manga articles it is of interest to me that I understand the consensus (if any) on the issues so I don't add errors into the articles that I write or edit. Unfortunately, the key points of the conversation are a bit lost in the torrent, so please allow me to restate them for clarity:
Approaching this is difficult. The title of the article is an easy case, because title words are more inclined to be English adoption or brand words than otherwise and, because EN.Wikipedia isn't usually accessed by people with enough shift keys on their keyboards, it needs to be available (at least through a redirect) to a version that doesn't contain non-English characters. In many of the manga articles (though not most-- there sadly aren't enough folks able to research and enter this), the original Japanese and proper romajization are included in the headers of the articles, immediately after the english title.
Proper names are also easy. Real people's names should be in the system in proper Hepburn-- unless the person himself has a preference, and that should be stated-- and with redirects from the myriad of non-conventional spellings that other sources happen to use. I'm sure this is already in the style guide, I think I read it there.
The trick, and this is where I most see WTM's quandry, is that internal words and less established words don't have an established reference point for spelling. We all don't have the luxury and gift of speaking Japanese and using names which are completely unknown to the English-language reader in the bodies of articles intended for that audience isn't optimal. The primary reference point that we have, the Viz manga, is in itself full of inconsistencies. The problem only arises when the reference spelling is wrong and looks poor to the other portion of the audience, the ones that actually know Japanese. (And that audience is also important, because Japanese speakers should be considered a reasonable audience for Japan-related articles.) The easy case here is if a reference source regularly offers multiple spellings for a name, then the spelling of the name adopted for Wikipedia should be the more correct one, rather than the one used more frequently. (With some level of judgement involved.) (And if someone wants to pepper the world with redirects from the wrong spellings, so be it. Even list them in the articles, if it's helpful.) With Shonen Jump, if it is determined from people that know more than I do that "Son Gokū" is more correct than "Son Gokû" and both are provided by the reference text (I think they are.) then we should pick the one that is more correct.
But outside of those cases, I am at a loss as to what to do-- do you follow the incorrect reference spelling (the position that WTM advances), a "corrected" (Hepburn-ified or modernized) spelling, an "English" spelling without diacritic marks, or something else entirely? I would suggest "common sense" come into play someplace: if it looks wrong to English or Japanese readers, care should be taken to use a written form in the body which is least offensive to both-- even if that means using an alternate name for the character or object which avoids the problem, provided that alternate name is introduced earlier in the article. (To use yet another Dragon Ball reference, if no one can agree on the spelling of Nyoibo and it really upsets people in every form, then just call the darn thing a Power Pole and have done with.) JRP 13:55, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Close. There are two issues, although they are linked. One of them is "should we follow the English publisher's spelling?" The other is "does WhisperToMe deserve censure?"
In reference to your comment "When spellings between the manga and anime have differed, we have generally perferred the manga one." This is not true, although from his previous comments in Talk:Sailor Moon (now removed, but see the page history), Whisper would apparently like us to believe that it is so.
When spellings between the manga and anime differ, we prefer the most popular spelling, as the style guide indicates. For Sailor Moon, the manga name is "Bunny Tsukino" while the anime name is "Serena Tsukino". So we go with the most common -- which, I was mildly surprised to learn, is in fact Usagi Tsukino (yes, in western name order). For Yugi Mutou, this should be the English anime version Yugi Moto (as Google and my 12-year-old brother concur). It should be remembered that relatively few people read translated manga compared to those who watch televised anime.
However, romanizations are not necessarily spellings: and if SJ doesn't seem to know the difference between a circumflex and a macron, you can't tell me that their readers (Whisper excluded) are likely to care either. So, the consensus is that macronless Hepburn (whether diacriticless, diaresisised, or circumflexed) gets turned into macronful Hepburn.
Whisper being deserving of censure hinges on the fact that he has constantly and consistently added circumflexes and moved articles to "conform to the manga version", ignoring consensus and style guidelines alike; that he has made numerous edits to Japanese-related articles based on nothing more than 'stuff he got from Shonen Jump'; that he makes dozens upon dozens of useless redirects, thus making it more difficult to move pages if necessary (which is especially egregious behavior when done after he's moved the page under the wrong title); and that, in general, he doesn't appear to be able to get his nose out of his manga in order to see over the top of it. -- Aponar Kestrel 16:34, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Originally moved from Talk:Yugi Mutou.
Yu-Gi-Oh! is serialized in the U.S. Shonen Jump. As the magazine uses circumflexes instead of macrons, Yu-Gi-Oh! related articles should use circumflexes in place of macrons. WhisperToMe 20:48, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Shonen Jump is not an encyclopedia, and has different standards. You're probably right about Anna Kyoyama: use of circumflexes where they are actually present in the most popular romanization of the names is likely the best way to go. Nonetheless, actual Japanese text (especially as here, where the localization with which the reader will most likely be familiar is a translation rather than a romanization) should always be glossed using Hepburn as described in the manual of style. -- Aponar Kestrel 22:11, 2004 Jul 26 (UTC)
Oh, and as for a reference:
In addition, Viz spells Yû Watase's name as "Yû Watase" in all of the works she has done. WhisperToMe 23:59, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have an idea on how to resolve this:
And the rest default to macrons. WhisperToMe 00:59, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
One more note, in the case of Shaman King and One Piece, I may revert to MOS style because so far, I have not seen circumflexes used in either actual manga. When a friend of mine returns, I will ask him to check up on those two to see if circumflexes are used in the actual manga. WhisperToMe 02:14, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
WTM, Kyôyama and Kyōyama are the same thing, two near-identical renderings of the same Japanese word in English. This should be patently obvious to even the densest anime geek, who is unlikely to have an apoplexy because he types "Anna Kyoyama" into Wikipedia and is greeted with a macron instead of a circumflex. Why, precisely, do we need to repeat two identical forms? What value would this add?
And for your information, I've been speaking American English since the ripe old age of nine months, and I fully agree that men doesn't wear panties, even when discussing diacritics in kids' cartoons. The reason these arguments tend to degenerate into ad hominem is that, in this discussion as in so many before, your side consists of well, you, and everybody else disagrees! Pattern or remarkable coincidence? Jpatokal 05:23, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I KNOW it's the same thing - I know it. You didn't ask for why I am doing this: if people really want macrons in the article, then this is how should go. The information from that macron is "This it is how academically spelled".
If anything, those that agree with me aren't posting. If you want me to, I'll rouse them and they'll come on here. WhisperToMe 06:03, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This is about you because it's inextricably connected to you. No other user messes with Japan-related articles like you do, and you're the only one promoting this ridiculous thing. Exploding Boy 06:55, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
And yes, JP, I apologize for editing your comments like that. WhisperToMe 07:40, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Fine. Here's the issue: Why do we need to include the circumflex? What value would this add? What value is lost if we use macrons?'
Can you answer my questions? Jpatokal 08:19, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I apologize for breaking in here. This conversation has become very long and complex, and as a person that occasionally touches manga articles it is of interest to me that I understand the consensus (if any) on the issues so I don't add errors into the articles that I write or edit. Unfortunately, the key points of the conversation are a bit lost in the torrent, so please allow me to restate them for clarity:
Approaching this is difficult. The title of the article is an easy case, because title words are more inclined to be English adoption or brand words than otherwise and, because EN.Wikipedia isn't usually accessed by people with enough shift keys on their keyboards, it needs to be available (at least through a redirect) to a version that doesn't contain non-English characters. In many of the manga articles (though not most-- there sadly aren't enough folks able to research and enter this), the original Japanese and proper romajization are included in the headers of the articles, immediately after the english title.
Proper names are also easy. Real people's names should be in the system in proper Hepburn-- unless the person himself has a preference, and that should be stated-- and with redirects from the myriad of non-conventional spellings that other sources happen to use. I'm sure this is already in the style guide, I think I read it there.
The trick, and this is where I most see WTM's quandry, is that internal words and less established words don't have an established reference point for spelling. We all don't have the luxury and gift of speaking Japanese and using names which are completely unknown to the English-language reader in the bodies of articles intended for that audience isn't optimal. The primary reference point that we have, the Viz manga, is in itself full of inconsistencies. The problem only arises when the reference spelling is wrong and looks poor to the other portion of the audience, the ones that actually know Japanese. (And that audience is also important, because Japanese speakers should be considered a reasonable audience for Japan-related articles.) The easy case here is if a reference source regularly offers multiple spellings for a name, then the spelling of the name adopted for Wikipedia should be the more correct one, rather than the one used more frequently. (With some level of judgement involved.) (And if someone wants to pepper the world with redirects from the wrong spellings, so be it. Even list them in the articles, if it's helpful.) With Shonen Jump, if it is determined from people that know more than I do that "Son Gokū" is more correct than "Son Gokû" and both are provided by the reference text (I think they are.) then we should pick the one that is more correct.
But outside of those cases, I am at a loss as to what to do-- do you follow the incorrect reference spelling (the position that WTM advances), a "corrected" (Hepburn-ified or modernized) spelling, an "English" spelling without diacritic marks, or something else entirely? I would suggest "common sense" come into play someplace: if it looks wrong to English or Japanese readers, care should be taken to use a written form in the body which is least offensive to both-- even if that means using an alternate name for the character or object which avoids the problem, provided that alternate name is introduced earlier in the article. (To use yet another Dragon Ball reference, if no one can agree on the spelling of Nyoibo and it really upsets people in every form, then just call the darn thing a Power Pole and have done with.) JRP 13:55, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Close. There are two issues, although they are linked. One of them is "should we follow the English publisher's spelling?" The other is "does WhisperToMe deserve censure?"
In reference to your comment "When spellings between the manga and anime have differed, we have generally perferred the manga one." This is not true, although from his previous comments in Talk:Sailor Moon (now removed, but see the page history), Whisper would apparently like us to believe that it is so.
When spellings between the manga and anime differ, we prefer the most popular spelling, as the style guide indicates. For Sailor Moon, the manga name is "Bunny Tsukino" while the anime name is "Serena Tsukino". So we go with the most common -- which, I was mildly surprised to learn, is in fact Usagi Tsukino (yes, in western name order). For Yugi Mutou, this should be the English anime version Yugi Moto (as Google and my 12-year-old brother concur). It should be remembered that relatively few people read translated manga compared to those who watch televised anime.
However, romanizations are not necessarily spellings: and if SJ doesn't seem to know the difference between a circumflex and a macron, you can't tell me that their readers (Whisper excluded) are likely to care either. So, the consensus is that macronless Hepburn (whether diacriticless, diaresisised, or circumflexed) gets turned into macronful Hepburn.
Whisper being deserving of censure hinges on the fact that he has constantly and consistently added circumflexes and moved articles to "conform to the manga version", ignoring consensus and style guidelines alike; that he has made numerous edits to Japanese-related articles based on nothing more than 'stuff he got from Shonen Jump'; that he makes dozens upon dozens of useless redirects, thus making it more difficult to move pages if necessary (which is especially egregious behavior when done after he's moved the page under the wrong title); and that, in general, he doesn't appear to be able to get his nose out of his manga in order to see over the top of it. -- Aponar Kestrel 16:34, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)