There are many different opinions among Irish people as well as to Wikipedians in general. This Manual of Style is designed to codify these guidelines in order to avoid future edit wars in regard to English and Irish names. Above all, when in doubt, use English. ℬastique▼ talk 30 June 2005 16:24 (UTC)
I fail to see the point of insisting on the English spelling of Ros Muc. It reads and is pronounced the same in both languages, unlike other names that would be mispronounced by readers unfamiliar with Irish.
Lapsed Pacifist 30 June 2005 20:44 (UTC)
Precisely because it is the English spelling--and the English spelling is notable enough, and it's, well, the English spelling. ℬastique▼ talk 30 June 2005 21:01 (UTC)
I take your point on the drum banging, I've seen it. My point was not specifically about Rosmuck. I just don't think it's a good example for the guideline given, as both versions would be pronounced accurately by some-one with no knowledge of Irish. This would not be the case for Inis Mór (Inishmore), which in my opinion would make it a better example. I don't think the article should be renamed or that the Irish version should be used gratuitously, although it's good that there is a redirect for Ros Muc. Articles on Gaeltacht towns and villages should also spell out clearly that the English name is not the official one.
Lapsed Pacifist 30 June 2005 21:51 (UTC)
If you read the example again, you'll see that it explicitly states Where English and Irish name are the same or similar, but English and Irish spelling differ, use the English spelling. Actually, I would have had no idea that Inis Mór and Inishmore sound identical. ℬastique▼ talk 30 June 2005 22:53 (UTC)
I would argue that for Gaeltacht (Irish speaking) areas like Ros Muc and Inis Mór, the correct spelling is the Irish spelling rather than the English version. Peoples names and place names should be exempt from the "this is an english encyclopedia rule". This is particularly true since a new law in Ireland plans to phase out all official usage of English placenames for Gaeltacht areas. Bandraoi 00:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Since the enacting of the Official Languages Act 2003 the continued use of the anglicised versions of placenames in Gaeltacht areas makes no sense at all. All road signs and official maps are now using the defined name in Irish. This practice is aleady beginning to lead to the up-dating of tourist maps. To continue to cling to the use of, often multiple, anglicised versions is unfair to those planning on visiting the country. I would suggest the way forward is to use a format similar to: Árainn (also sometimes called Inis Mór and anglicised as Inishmore. A reference to the act in relevant articles wopuld also help clarify. Whatever peoples' views on this topic Wikipedia articles should reflect the signage etc. of the area being written on. Taibhdhearc 14:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that isn't a point that I missed. If we in Ireland decide to call a town 'Z' and then proceed to use this name on all our signposts and government publications surely it makes perfect sense to adapt to this situation. In fact the word 'rosmuck', for example, is not an English word per se. A name is a tag to aid someone in recognising a location, particularly important if you are trying to find a place. I wouldn't recommend an article on Kingstown, Queenstown or Marysborough although a reference to the use of these names for an historic period might aid someone beginning to research history on a given area. Taibhdhearc 15:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe the expression is 'the exception that proves the rule'. London is referred to as Londres on the fr.wikipedia but that is not carried through to other towns and cities, much as English people use 'Le Havre' today. It is, of course, an interesting area of debate on the respect of local naming conventions, even to the level of state names. While I would accept there is probably no black and white in this topic it would be a good thing, I believe, to see respect for the naming conventions of the local population, never mind the whole signposting and mapping aspects. Taibhdhearc 16:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I recently returned to Dublin after living in the Connamara Gaeltacht and I must point out here that the names of towns of Gaeltacht areas are called by their Irish names in both English and Irish. This is not simply as a result of recent legislation. I have been banging my head on the wall in utter frustration trying to find certain articles on Gaeltacht towns. I look at the map and there is no English, I look at road signs and there is no English, I listen to TV and radio in both English and Irish and there is never a reference to these towns with their supposed English names (An Daingean is an obvious exception to this). Wikipedia should reflect this in full. Quite simply, there should be a very different set of rules for Gaeltacht towns than there is for Galltacht towns. Jamesnp 18:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
For contributers wanting to fill articles with a myriad of alternative Irish spellings, watch this space [1]. Statutory orders have been made for some places within counties and also for all provinces and counties within the Republic of Ireland. Djegan 30 June 2005 21:13 (UTC)
Of course I want to include a section on precicely which English to use, but I'm unsure of the ways that proper UK English and proper Ireland English differ. Have the Irish disposed of that rather ugly use of "-ise" instead of "-ize" that almost nobody except the Brits seem to retain? ℬastique▼ talk 30 June 2005 23:23 (UTC)
Actually Irish people use ise rather than ize. Many people are irritated by the Americanised ize. Hiberno-English opts to use ise where popular. I think your belief that it is only the Brits who want to keep ise is way wide of the mark. It is still widely used in International English. In fact ize is seen as part in many parts of the world as part of American linguistic imperialism. FearÉIREANN
(talk) 1 July 2005 22:47 (UTC)
1. If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we do not refer to Martin Kyne but to Mairtín Ó Cadhain etc.
2. In Irish orthography, there is a space between Mac and the rest of the surname, e.g. Seán Mac Eoin, Seán Mac Stiofáin etc. In English orthography, there is apparently no space between the Mc or Mac and the rest of the surname but this is not entirely true. Some surnames do have spaces between them, it depends. An example would be "Mc Brearty".
3. In Irish, the O in surnames always takes an accent and is always followed by a space, e.g. Tomás Ó Deirg.
4. When transcribing from old Gaelic script, please relect the modern and standard forms of Irish spelling, especially in the use of the letter h. Thus, Aed becomes Aedh or Aodh, Domnall becomes Domhnall, Ruaidri becomes Ruaidhrí.
5. Fadas (accents) must always be used if necessary. There is no excuse for omitting them.
6. Unmarried girls and women are identified by "Ní"; married women by "Uí." Hence if Aoife Ní Bhraonáin were to marry a man named Tomás Ó Cuinneagáin, her married name would be Aoife Uí Chuinneagáin (or Aoife, Bean [Mrs.] Uí Chuinneagáin). Note the change in the form of the surname (Cuinneagáin --> Chuinneagáin) for females.
Damac added these in to the MoS page. He probably didn't know that unilateral changes need to go here first and be discussed, not directly on MoS pages without discussion.
Some of them are also incompatible with the overall MoS and so cannot be applied.
For example:
1. If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, this should be reflected in Wikipedia.
That is not Wikipedia policy at all. Its policy is to use the version of a name used by English speakers. If English speakers use Mairtín Ó Cadhain and Mairtín Ó Muilleoir, as they do, then that is what is used. But though he called himself Sean T Ó Ceallaigh, because English speakers know him as Sean T. O'Kelly the second president's name is written as Sean T. O'Kelly.
Wikipedia uses Taoiseach not because that is what the Irish prime minister is called in the Constitution but because people use Taoiseach in English. In contrast it does not use the Spanish title for Spain's prime minister because that name, unlike Taoiseach, is not used by English speakers. Similarly Wikipedia uses Kaiser because the word is used by English speakers to refer to the German Emperor. But, though he too was a Kaiser, we call the Austrian monarch Emperor because English speakers never use Kaiser when referring to Austrian Emperors. We use Wilhelm II of Germany, not William, because Wilhelm is used by English speakers so it will be recognised. But we call the last Russian Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, not Nikolai which is what he called himself, because English speakers know him as Nicholas, and would not recognise an article on Nikolai II of Russia.
Because each language Wikipedia has names in it from around the world, the rule is that each Wikipedia, whether in English, French, German, Italian, Irish or whichever, only uses the form of name familiar to users of that Wikipedia. If the native name is familiar to users of that Wikipedia it is used. If it isn't, the version they know is used. So on the Italian Wikipedia, there is no Taoiseach because no-one in Italian calls Bertie Ahern that.
The golden rule on this English Wikipedia is that the form of name used by English speakers; not the English language version nor the native language version, but whichever readers will recognise. So it is Mairtín Ó Cadhain but Sean T. O'Kelly, Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh but Rory O'Connor, Taoiseach but President of Ireland, etc. is used. If a MoS entry is created to make Irish language names different to all others then it is likely to be deleted on sight by users because everyone across all languages has to follow the one set of rules, with no deviations. Each language cannot follow its own we're doing it differently rule.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
00:07, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Point 4 is very ambiguous. How such names are transcribed depends entirely on context. In referring to Old Irish it could be quite valid to retain the original spelling and some old spellings are simply the normal way of referring to people. Let not go overboard with standardising. — Moilleadóir 07:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Dáithí Ó Conaill is very straightforward. That was his name. There is no confusion in terms of fact. Ó Conaill is simply the original of the anglicised O'Connell/Connell etc etc. O' is obviously incorrect, and the O without the fada is used when people cannot put the fada, but are giving the respect of acknowledging it's an Irish language prefix.
The point regarding the Kaiser is not that everyone called him Wilhelm in English. They didn't. But it was used widely enough to be recognisable. Therefore the native name works by recognition and can be used. Nikolai II in contrast does not, but Umberto II of Italy does. Daithí Ó Conaill is IMHO the most recognisable version. Sean MacEoin is recognisable, Sean Mac Eoin, with the additional spacing, is not and should only be used for the Irish version of the name, not the name used in English. The rule on Wikipedia is not to use the person's name as they use it, but to use the version as generally used. Sean T. always used the Irish language version of his name. Ernest Blythe did too. But as neither were generally known, however they might have wished otherwise, by their Irish name, it would be completely wrong to use it in articles here. If Gerhard Schröder was known to English speakers as Gerry Shroder, then that is how Wikipedia would name him. Luckily for him his native name is what is also used in English.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
14:58, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Any chance we could get this one sorted out - it's been lying here since August. I've read through the comments and have modified my proposals thus:-- Damac 16:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Right now this MoS subpage only deals with geographical articles, but it needs to be extended to biographical articles. I think it's uncontroversial to say people best known in English by their English name (e.g. Mary McAleese) should be listed under that name and not under their Irish name (e.g. Máire Mhic Ghiolla Íosa). Likewise people who only use their Irish name, even in English contexts, should be listed under their Irish name (e.g. Cathal Ó Searcaigh). But there was a kerfuffle a while back about Geoffrey Keating, who is best known in English as that, but who was Irish-speaking and probably never used that name himself. The compromise we found was to follow the example of Ovid and list the article under Geoffrey Keating but have the first sentence read "Seathrún Céitinn, known in English as Geoffrey Keating, was...". Does this sound like a reasonable addition? -- Angr ( tɔk) 16:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Correct Irish orthography in naming people
5. Fadas (accents) must always be used if necessary. There is no excuse for omitting them.
As this has been in discussion since August and no further commments/objections have been made to my proposals, I have added Correct Irish orthography in naming people to the article page. -- Damac 09:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
A further problem arises when a difference exists between the modern Irish form of the name and the original form. For instance the article on Terence MacSwiney is listed under the English form of the name, but a disagreement exists as to how to describe the Irish version. A user listed this as Traolach Mac Suibhne, which I changed to Toirdhealbhach on discovering that that was the form used in his contemporary printed works. Damac later reverted that, making the point that the version 'Traolach' is the one used on his monument (a picture of which is on the page). However, I am not convinced this is appropriate - the monument appears to date from much later (around the 1960s or 1970s, I would guess) and reflects modern rather than contemporary usage. I am fairly sure, and will check, that MacSwiney actually used the form 'Toirdhealbhach' as his signature, and my view is that that is the form that should be used. However, I would like to hear what others think of this. Rbreen 20:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I have found no reference to this on Wikipedia. I would like to see all surnames that begin with "Mc" alphabetised as though they were "Mac", e.g. in categories. This is what the eircom phonebook does. A number of Irish Wikipedians also seem to do it this way. You will find categories with a mixture of both policies.
Obviously, this would affect the MoS for the whole of Wikipedia; it can't be contained to Irish articles. Scottish editors might also have an opinion on the matter, and, of course, many Americans have "Mc" surnames. What do people think? Ian Cheese 22:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I think we need guidelines about what terms to use for the 2 jurisdictions on Ireland, particularly in category names. Here are some proposals to get a discussion started: (See #Names of areas and #Nature of areas sections below). For the purposes of this discussion I refer to the 3 areas as C6, C26 and C32 - based on the number of traditional counties in each. Joestynes 13:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Currently we have
Category:Irish heads of government Category:Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland Terence O'Neill etc Category:First Ministers of Northern Ireland David Trimble Category:Heads of Irish provisional governments Cathal Brugha etc Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State W.T. Cosgrave and Dev Category:Taoisigh of Ireland Bertie Ahern etc
I would rather see
Category:Irish heads of government Category:Heads of government of Northern Ireland Category:Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland Terence O'Neill etc Category:First Ministers of Northern Ireland David Trimble Category:Heads of Irish provisional governments Cathal Brugha etc Category:Heads of government of C26 Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State W.T. Cosgrave and Dev Category:Taoisigh of Ireland Bertie Ahern etc
2 questions:
I'm not sure about 1920-1922 or 1937-1949 for C26. Category:Prime Ministers of C26 would be a useful supercategory for Category:Taoisigh of Ireland and Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State, but no convenient name springs to mind. Ireland would probably not be misunderstood in most applicable contexts, but I'm loath to recommmend it after all the preceding cautions.
Theres been some disagreement over this on Talk:Gerry Adams, with some entirely conflicting views to a similar discussion on the Irish noticeboard, and with one user effectively threatening to "start an official discussion on it", I'm doing it myself.
This is the English language Wikipedia, and the vast majority of Irish people, be they arguably or not arguably "Irish", are named in English. Yet there are large numbers of articles which feature a translation of their name in to Irish. This is an almost unique situation - in no other cases are names which are already in English converted to another language, only those which have been Anglified (e.g. from Irish itself, or, as is most common, from languages which do not utilise Latin characters - a notable Irishman himself, Chaim Herzog, serving as a good example here).
Modern names in Ireland generally do not have any genuine Irish version, everything is a back translation. These back-translations vary from region to region, and family to family depending from the same Irish surname - my own surname (Duffy) is one which varies heavily, as does O'Connell - examples of which are further up this page.
We already have a policy for people who were named in Irish or who almost always use an Irish form of their name. In these cases, their every day name is in Irish, so it should be listed as such and an English version or translation given where applicable - all well and good, all covered.
Yet we have many people whos name has never been in Irish. And there is a translation given which is completetly unverifiable - violating WP:V. Giving a translation in to one language that the name is not in and not others is a violation of the NPOV policy - WP:NPOV. And its a borderline violation of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), as completely unnessacery non-English text is being used
In a case like, oh, I'll take Bertie Ahern as an example, our current Taoiseach is called Patrick Bartholemhew Ahern, commonly known as Bertie Ahern. Yet we have an entirely out-of-context "Pádraig Parthalán Ó hEachthairn" thrown in there for good measure. For the google search "Bartholomew in Irish", we get such possible versions of the name as "Bairtleméad", and very few google results for "Parthalán" return "Bartholomew" as an English language version, indeed it gets returned as having an English version of "Barclay" on some references. This shows how entirely unverifiable an Irish back-translation is.
Now, Mr. Ahern was born in an English speaking area of the country in the 1950's. He was almost certainly named entirely in English and hence no "Irish version" of his name exists. Generating one for him is a clear violation of the policies on No Original Research WP:NOR. Googling for the Irish version of his name provided does turn up some decent references, however most drop the Pádraig. The Wikipedia, in Irish, is the highest result. This is where I admit that Bertie was probably a bad example for NOR...
Anyway... what could be as simple as a few words in brackets can easily lead to the violation of a huge number of Wikipedia policies. Hence, I'm proposing that for where someone was named in English, ONLY the English-language form of their name is used, as Use English would suggest. Where an Irish version of their name is used by themselves in English consistantly or they were actually named in Irish, the current rules would still apply, of course.
Nationalistic issues must be set aside here - its irrelevant that "Irish is a national language". In the case of those people from Nothern Ireland, both Irish and Ulster Scots are recognised national languages; and for the UK, I don't see a Welsh version of "Anthony Charles Lyndon Blair" appearing Tony Blair appearing on his page, despite its national language status in the UK. There is no justifiable reason whatsoever to expend effort back-translating names which are not in Irish to Irish for the English language Wikipedia. If people wish to expend effort on translation to Irish, there is an Irish language Wikipedia which is growing in usage all the time and will no doubt be happy to take any contributions. -- Kiand 22:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Citability is always an issue, once someone makes a request or their is a dispute. Citeability is the standard that wikipedia sets, it is not acceptable to prove simply that a name can be translated. Djegan 15:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify and expand were I stand; when we are adding/retaining a disputed name we need more than a abstract web page somewhere to prove it. Moreover, the belief that we must provide a translation because someone is "nationalist" is bogus, should we provide Ulster Scots for "unionists" - no. If we give translations simply because of this criteria then this is slavish and fundementally insecure, we must show it has some degree of relevence to the article not simply a means of panning out the body of the article. Djegan 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My dhá phingin on this: I agree that Irish versions of personal names should not be used without good reason. I think RTÉ Nuacht always calls Bertie Bertie rather than Parthalán, though I have seen the Irish name on the bilingual plaque unveiled at the Cork main sewerage scheme (the glamour!). Charlie Haughey was Cathal ó hEochaidh on Nuacht however; his mother called him Cathal too; he was Minister for the Gaeltacht; I'm prepared to be inclusive in borderlinecases. But in general I imagine the only articles this is being added to are politicians: would anyone put Robáird ó Catháin on Robbie Keane's page? That is a sign that something unobjective is at work.
As regards placenames, the Irish version should always be given for counties, provinces and natural features, and in the Republic of Ireland for urban areas. Not sure about new towns in NI where any neolgistic Irish parity-of-esteem name may never be used. Not sure about smallscale human features like parks, streets, buildings, stadiums, etc. jnestorius( talk) 21:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that the political location be described in the form Townname is a town/village in County Countyname, Republic of Ireland, and is located in the geographicregion of Ireland.
So for example; Cratloe is a village in County Clare, Republic of Ireland, located in the midwest of Ireland.
What do people think? I think it's appropriate to link to both ROI and Ireland, as the places are located in both.
zoney ♣ talk 13:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I think we need to be careful on this one. Regional identity in Ireland (i.e. other than counties) is not very strong. Their are no hard and fast definitions of regions. Djegan 18:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I propose that the following preferred style be added to this page:
Thoughts? The existing articles on towns in Ireland near-universally follow the above format.
zoney ♣ talk 13:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest amending this section as follows:
'''Townname''' ([[Irish language|Irish]]: ''Ainmbhaile'')
and continuing from there. This is just to ensure consistent formatting; that "Irish" is linked and disambiguated to Irish language, with the actual Irish placename being italicised.
zoney ♣ talk 14:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed a small ambiguity in the current wording of the guidelines on naming people and this has to do with the question when a space should be included after Mac in surnames. Paragraph one states:
Taking this then, we should refer to Tomás Mac Giolla using the Irish version of his name. However, paragraph 3 specifies:
I think some clarification is necessary in both paragraph three, and I propose that they be re-worded thus (changes in bold):
What do people think?-- Damac 15:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Is there any convention on the appropriate reference to Ireland where what is being described is a genuinely island-wide phenomenon, or where the phenomoneon exists more to the North of the island (such as a geographical phenomoneon to do with the weather, social habits, etc.) where the border does not have any practical apparent significance? The problem arises because one cannot use Northern Ireland synonymously with the North of the island and on the other hand you don't want to give the impression you are deliberately avoiding reference to Northern Ireland.
The problem arose on the Coleraine aritlce re. the town centre being referred to as a "Diamond", something, I am assured, whcih occurs also in the North of the Republic. Having raised the matter on two other talk pages the two users who responded both felt that it was just not worth the hassle of referring to the north of the island. Am I being naive in thinking there must be some way of referring to the north of the island that most reasonable people from different political perspectives would find acceptable? Lucifer 11:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
"Ulster" should be acceptable and accurate too in your example of diamonds. I would have thought "Ireland" would be sufficent for "island-wide phenomena". Halib Frisk 09:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Currently metric units are been given second place over imperial in County Down, comments are welcome at talk:County Down. Their may be an implication for this manual of style. Djegan 23:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay query, how should historical references be handled with reference to Derry/Londonderry. The city was called Londonderry between dates in historical periods before it's current renaming back to Derry, which is supported under this MOS. Now all present day references should be to Derry, no questions asked. I changed a couple of articles that pointed to Londonderry to point to Derry then though, hold on. Should the historical ones from when it was named Londonderry to when it was renamed back to Derry use Derry or Londonderry? It's not as clear cut as County Derry/Londonderry as there was never a County Derry, but I don't think this point has been discussed here before and a way forward on this one is needed, or is the IMOS as it currently stands sufficient for these usages? I don't care much either way, but a guidance one way or another would be useful. I personally (I know I said I don't care) weigh towards using Londonderry in it's correct historical periods prior to the council renaming, simply due to historical weight and official usage, but a guideline would be useful. Can we have a non-POV academic discussion on this and maybe a vote at the end? Ben W Bell talk 15:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a good question and prob not easily answered. It could be easy to set the agenda so that articles would be written in a way to suit a particular view point, yet their maybe times when the alternative variation is neccessary. In particular quotations which occassionally get rewritten (I am not saying where) to suit an agenda. I do not think that we should slavishly follow WP:IMOS but that using the alternative variation should be the except rather than the rule. Djegan 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as precedent goes:
I haven't made my mind up on this yet, there seems to be precedent for both choices. Demiurge 21:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a resident of Derry - I've only lived there in short stints amounting to a matter of weeks. I do think the city should be named Derry in any reference to the present-day location, as per this current IMoS. Obviously it should be called Londonderry if the text is quoting someone, or if the text is describing, in that sentence or paragraph, the name itself, or the origin vis-a-vis the London Companies etc. Articles referring to the location before the London Companies charter should refer to the place as Derry again.
My personal preference may well be to write Londonderry, and to say Derry - but that's more to do with my own personal style than anything else really. I can't remember the history off-hand right now.. I assume the county was (re-)named after the town, whereby previously County Derry/Londonderry hadn't existed. I think the current IMoS is probably 'correct' as such, and I find it to be a pleasant compromise.
I know for a fact that the Civil Service in Northern Ireland always replies to correspondence using the name the initial contact used - a letter from Joe Bloggs, Derry will be replied to the address Joe Bloggs, Derry and a letter from John Smith, Londonderry will be addressed to John Smith, Londonderry.
I appreciate that the question is relating to the historical references, but I think the most important thing is the reader. It should be made clear to the reader (and we, as editors, should always assume the reader is ignorant) that both the city and county (and the council etc etc) are both called Londonderry and Derry, and note the 'official' names of them (to my knowledge, the official names are: Londonderry City, Londonderry County and Derry Council).
Basically, stick with the current IMoS unless the reference is specifically regarding the name, the 'controversy', or quotations. Also, use Londonderry, I guess, when referring to official laws that had been passed which refer to Londonderry. That's my initial instinct anyway. -- Mal 04:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to avoid using either name? The article can use terms like "the walled city", "the historic centre" and so on - it is obvious from context that we aren't writing about Dubrovnik. If it starts to become silly, find some relevant historic text to quote (preferably older than 1690!). If the historical text used the L word, it has to stand because it is a verbatim quote. But be ultra careful to ration usage tightly and sensitively, as there is a risk of emulating the Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy! -- Red King 20:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
IMHO the current stance of the city of Derry, in the County of Londonderry should be followed unless there are good reasons (other than pedantry) for deviating. For example a document concerning the Irish Society may refer the historic Londonderry (city) name, or articles mentioning such things as a 'Londonderry Regiment' or 'First Londonderry Presbyterian Church'. In general though, few people refer to events in "New Amsterdam" in 1650 - they refer to modern "New York", unless they are discussing the Dutch presence in the "New World" (another disused term).. Likewise, imho, referring to the modern city of Derry should be the norm. Blowmonkey 13:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
So does WP:IMOS onlyh apply in article titles or what is the story?
WP:IMOS states "Use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county for article titles. The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate."
So does it not apply to uses in the artivle itself?
Its seems a bit stupid to me that we can't say County Derry in articles like GAA-related ones. Derry Boi 22:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree its got to the stage where the agreement on {{WP:IMOS]] has become a joke. I think its not unreasonable to have a better compromise, I would suggest:
The artciles about the city and county themselves be called what the majoroty of citizens in each would refer to them as. This seems to have preedance in Wikipedia. This would mean the city article being called "Derry" and the county artcile being called "County Derry".
As fr the likes of towns, villages etc in County Derry. We should describe their location as what most people in the town/village would refer to them as. Obviouslsy, while not ideal, the only real way we could have of this is using the 2001 Census results and if a town/village is predomantly Catholic, we descibe it as being in "County Derry", and if a town is predomantly Protestant, we describe it as being in "County Londonderry".
On articles such as GAA ones, we really should be using "County Derry".
Opinions?
Derry Boi
17:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You need to re-read my statements, carefully this time. Links should be simple with no trickery, and direct to the article, theirfore for instance [[Derry]] for "Derry" and [[County Londonderry]] for "County Londonderry". Put simple, no piped or redirect links - just use the term as decided by the article title for that term. If people are unhappy with current article titles then they should consider WP:RM and respect the current article title, whatever it may be. Djegan 00:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
There's a revert war proceeding merrily about wartime usage. US Naval sources refer to "Londonderry" when referring to the wartime use of military bases in the Derry area. In general, I would respect the US (and historic UK) naming for their bases, probably adding a reference to Derry. Note also that Derry City Council refer to the port as "Londonderry Port" [4]. Any consensus? Folks at 137 12:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Derry Boi ( talk • contribs)
I have put a stub at Londonderry Port - have fun. -- Henrygb 17:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Their is a vote to move Cork to Cork (city), not all the proposals confirm to this manual of style, for voting and discussion see talk:Cork#Survey. Djegan 12:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There's a bit of trouble over this word across several articles at the moment ( Séamus McElwaine ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Thomas Begley ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Joseph MacManus ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Bobby Sands ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)) and I'd like the community's help in reaching a consensus. My view is that using "volunteer" for IRA members is unacceptably POV as it has strong positive implications (just look at the Volunteer article). Also it is used almost exclusively by the IRA and their sympathisers, rarely or never by external sources.
It has been argued that this is a military rank used by the IRA, but the Green Book does not seem to support this — it uses "volunteer" as a generic term for all IRA members. My preference is to use the word "member" instead; what do other people think? Demiurge 15:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Did you even look at those sites? They're all either 1) direct quotes from republicans ( [5] [6] [7]) or 2) from people with apparent republican sympathies ([ [8] [9]). The BBC story [10] is about the Irish Volunteers not the IRA and this link [11] supports my case by putting the word "volunteer" in quotes. [12] is about the IRA putting out a list of its own dead members so they're going to find it hard to avoid IRA terminology. Demiurge 21:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
You are now clutching at straws(like you do everytime people dont agree with you)! Since when has is the Irish Voice newspaper a republican paper? and why would the guardian (a british paper) feel the need to dance around what you call "IRA terminology" - what about the other links? care to explain why those non republican source also use the term Volunteer? Finally, here are some more to get you teeth into -
That kind of puts to bed your arguement that only republican use the term. Vintagekits 22:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
site | "IRA volunteer" | "IRA member" | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
google URL | count | google URL | count | |
cnn.com | [16] | 1 | [17] | 51 |
guardian.co.uk | [18] | 80 | [19] | 200 |
scotsman.com | [20] | 2 | [21] | 201 |
timesonline.co.uk | [22] | 27 | [23] | 69 |
cain.ulst.ac.uk | [24] | 28 | [25] | 52 |
ivanfoster.org | [26] | 3 | [27] | 16 |
mirror.co.uk | [28] | 0 | [29] | 9 |
ulsternation.org.uk | [30] | 1 | [31] | 0 |
bbc.co.uk | [32] | 16 | [33] | 186 |
ireland.com | [34] | 2 | [35] | 15 |
archives.tcm.ie | [36] | 35 | [37] | 164 |
jnestorius( talk) 02:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Volunteer seems fine to me. It doesn't seem POV to me. Also I'm sure (without checking) British troops are described as their releavnt rank on wikipedia.
The IRA described members as volunteers. I mightn't see the Queen as very majestic, but I suppose if I removed "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II" from her page, I wouldn't get away with it for too long.
members of the "Privy Council of the United Kingdom" have "Right Honourable" put before their name. Surely if Volunteer is POV, then so is Right Honourable? Derry Boi 20:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
To most people this is a confusing sentence. It seems to say that he was helping out the IRA. Clearer might be:Sean Murphy is an IRA volunteer
but only if volunteer is a genuine rank that we can verify and not just a term for all IRA members only used by Republicans. As the IRA does not publish membership lists and ranks, the best you could do is state that someone was alleged or found in court or stated himself that he held that rank.''Sean Murphy holds the rank of volunteer in the IRA
''Sean Murphy was alleged to be a member of the IRA. An Phoblacht stated the he held the rank of volunteer
There is no confusion. The sentence has no double meaning and calling someone a private does not show approval or disapproval.John Smith was a private in the British army
You would need a source so that readers could verify the rank. Curtains99 23:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)John Smith held the rank of private in the British army.
Sean Murphy was a member of the IRA, who held the rank of volunteer.[reference]
Sean Murphy was an IRA volunteer.[reference]
"Volunteer" is a loaded term, which has connotations of good acts. It was a term used by the IRA groups themselves, and as they are banned terrorist organisations (in ROI, Britain, and US), using their language would be wrong. "Member" is surely a better term as it is NEUTRAL. Logica 13:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see a problem with the term. If you chose to join a particular incarnation of the IRA, then you are a volunteer. Just like of you chose to join the Masons or the Orange Order, you do so of freewill, therefore you volunteered. 74.13.87.196 03:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The historical nature of the term must surely be known before anyone can make a judgement on this term. Read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Volunteers and then it will become quite clear from where the term came and why it is not as sinister as some, obviously anti-Irish republican comments, seem to think (unsigned comment).
Volunteer / Óglach is the correct term to describe soldiers of the Irish Republic. Óglaigh na hÉireann (the IRA) - which is under the direction of the Continuity Army Council - is the National Army of the Irish Republic (hence Irish Republican Army). The Continuity Army Council is the lawful Government of the Irish Republic. As such, it is unacceptably non-NPOV to describe Republican soldiers as "members" rather than Volunteers. They are entitled to have the correct military term used to describe them, regardless of whether this upsets traitors and criminals.
The sovereignty and unity of the Republic are inalienable and non-judicable, and the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman is owing to the sovereign Irish Republic proclaimed in 1916, endorsed by the people of All-Ireland in 1918, and effectively established by the First Dáil Éireann in January, 1919.
Articles such as the "Irish Government" article should also be altered as they are seditious, and seek to imply that an illegal assembly established by England, and not legislating for Ireland as a unit, has a right to style itself as the Government of Ireland.
Long Live the Irish Republic / An Phoblacht Abú!(unsigned comment)
Vintagekits wrote on the meidation page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-12-02_IRA_%27Volunteer%27_usage#Discussion) that:
"The term is widely used but does not imply sympathy as it is used by pro republican [ 1], [ 2], [ 3] - anti republican [ 4], [ 5], [ 6], [ 7], [ 9] and neutral sources such as [ 10], [ 11], [ 12], [ 13], [ 14], [ 15]"
May I quickly point out that link 14 (to the Mirror Newspaper) is actually quoting Gerry Adams rather than using the term "volunteer" by its own writing. But let us deal with the number of uses for "volunteer" and "member" in each of these links as follows:
Those described as "pro republican" by User:Vintagekits:
Those described as "anti republican" by User:Vintagekits:
Those described as "neutral" by User:Vintagekits:
If we were to add up all of the uses for the categories given by User:Vintagekits, we find the following results:
User:Vintagekits' argument that "volunteer" is a term also used by anti-republican and neutral sources is not supported by this evidence, even though Vintagekits defined what is "anti republican" and "neutral". This is evidence that the term "volunteer" is a term predominantly used by a "pro republican" perspective, and is used little elsewhere, with the term "member" being preferred. The neutral perspective adopts "member" much more commonly than "volunteer". Wikipedia should be neutral, and should follow this neutral trend by using the term "member" instead of "volunteer". Logica 21:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
NB I am aware that I have missed other phrases such as "volunteerS of the IRA" or "memberS of the IRA", but this was just a quicker way of doing it. Please feel free to look up these other terms.
Logica
21:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Just a couple of points:
The fact is that the term volunteer does not inherently have a bias. While the term does decend from the Irish Volunteers the use of the term does not denote agreement with the belief of the C/R/PIRA being the legitimate successor of the Irish Volunteers (and the old IRA). Its an encyclopedic term, reasonably neutral, and in wide use. I can't think of many other terms that are neutral, encyclopedic (ex. an 'IRA man'), and in wide use. A term such as 'IRA member' simply takes away from the quality of the encyclopedia, if wikipedia was written like that, it would lose considerable detail. Denoting the position of a man within an organization, is not an acceptence of that organization (albiet all members of the IRA are generally considered vols). SCVirus 06:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the ethrnocentric neocolonialist imposition of English spellings over official Irish names. It's borderline ridiculous and clearly Anglocentric. It can only be explained due to the fact that English editors are more numerous in Wikipedia than Irish ones. It's so easy to make a redirect to the real official name... -- Sugaar 23:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Naming articles: English versus Irish
1. Where the English and Irish names are the same or very nearly the same, but the English and Irish spellings differ, use the English spelling.
- Example 1: Rosmuck, not Ros Muc.
- Example 2: Inishmore, not Inis Mór.
2. Where the English and Irish names are different, and English name remains predominant usage in English, use English name.
- Example: Wicklow, not Cill Mhantáin.
3. Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English usage, use the English name.
- Example: Newbridge, County Kildare, not Droichead Nua.
Yes, it's clearly not a universal consensus. On one side there is the "this is the English language Wikipedia and so and so" (sometimes forgetting that English is today the global language and that the English Wikipedia is not just read nor edited only by people of Sussex and New Hampshire, I mean: traditional anglophones in general) and on the other is the Multiculturality aspect, validity of official names of locations (for instance you don't find directly Port aux Basques (Newfoundland) anymore but another official name that I can't recall right now).
I'd say that one thing is when talking about major entities like Dublin or London, or the Republic of Ireland (should it be Eire?) and another very different thing when talking about some ill-known town or village or county. In the first case the English name should dominate (at least as general principle), I think, but in the second there's little reason to insist on that.
Guess this issue happens in other contexts (Mumbay or Bombay? Sutee or Sati? Acadèmie Française or French Academy?) but I stumbled upon this guideline and thought it really bought the English language priority really too far by basically making impossible that even ill-known places could use their official name without breaching this guideline. -- Sugaar 15:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I see your point. However, with smaller Irish towns could it not be argued that the more predominant usage amongst Anglophones 'would' be the official title, as few outside that town, or outside of Ireland, would refer to that town? So, unusually, the rule suggested by the Manual could require use of the official name?-- Lucifer 15:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any consensus as to what nationality should be used to describe people from Northern Ireland? This comes up every so often on the C. S. Lewis article, which can go from "Irish" to "Northern Irish" to "British" (I think once it was even "English", and at one point he was simply described as an "Ulsterman"!). My feeling is that if someone from the North self-identifies as simply "Irish", then this is what they should be described as in their article. Is this already covered anywhere? I understand that it's the kind of thing that requires some sort of flexibility, but having some sort of recommendation in the MOS would be a help. I've noticed some articles just side-step the issue altogether, which leads me to believe some kind of consensus on the issue is necessary. Any thoughts? Martin 14:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Over the past few months there has been an increase in alternative Irish names at the top of Northern Ireland pages. Most placenames have an Irish version and so it makes sense that the Irish name is displayed where it exists. This is particularly true where an English name is derived from the Irish. What is rather odd is the making up of unsourced Irish versions of somebody's name or of a government department.
There was recently an issue with the Seamus Heaney page - this has now been resolved, apparently.
Don't get me wrong - some departments such as the Department of Education do use the Irish language and the website - [40] does include the English, Irish and Ulster Scots versions of the name on its front page. Others such as the Department for Employment and Learning do not and have never done so. Searching "An Roinn Fostaíochta agus Foghlaim" provides one link - namely the Wikipedia article!
The reason for the differences in the use of Irish language goes back to when there was devolved government and relates to which ministers were allocated which portfolios.
I think we should respect the views of those ministers and only mention an Irish language version of the department at the top of the page if the name is displayed in the department's logo as seen on their website.
There is a grey area where other government departments have used an Irish language name. I think it is pretty clear cut that departments such as Employment and Learning should not have an obviously made up Irish Name.
The same rules should apply to Ulster Scots where versions exist and are used prominently. What do people think?
NotMuchToSay 21:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Remembering that this is the English language wikipedia we may need to demonstrate reasons why we are adding non-English content at times (indeed these may need to be sustantial reasons). It is often neccessary to demonstrate use and usefulness and above all relevance to the article content. It is simply not enough to show that something has a non-English name or variation. Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate information. Djegan 17:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Please see Fingal and Talk:Fingal for the background to this. But in a nutshell, the entity formerly known as County Dublin no longer exists, and hasn't done so for approxmately a decade. Instead, we have Fingal, South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and Dublin City Council areas. Yet at the same time we still have, for example, the Swords, Dublin article, which is particularly ironic given that Swords is actually the 'county town' of Fingal. A search for ", Dublin" (comma space Dublin) brings back many similar results for towns, villages and suburbs that are listed as being in County Dublin rather than their new county. I had proposed a move for Swords, Dublin article to Swords, Fingal on its talk page, but Djegan rightly pointed out that such a move would probably be controversial and should be discussed here first to get consensus. So - what I'm proposing now is a 'mini-project' to identify all such articles with an incorrect "(place), Dublin" appellation and a subsequent move to their appropriate "(place), (new county)" article name. Bastun 16:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
To quote Djegan (from the Fingal talk page): "The law of the state is quite clear on the status of the county of Fingal, it is simply a "county" and nothing else, it is not an "administrative area" or "administrative county" - any suggestion that "It's an administrative area, not a true county" is patently incorrect. In particular Local Government Act 2001 (Section 10) does not assign any other term or the accompanying schedule [42].
Futhurmore the term used Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993 (Section 9) of "administrative counties" is defunct [43]." In other words - the reality of the legal situation - admittedly if not yet everyday usage - is that there is no such thing as County Dublin. The latest OSI maps no longer show it, either, instead using the new counties. Bastun 19:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Whilst the three new counties within the former county of Dublin are becoming more commonly used (they are in the latest OSI 1:50,000 map of the city and former county) it is probabily quite premature to make a move at this point. For instance people still use County Dublin in their postal address though this is possibily more to do with tradition and reminding folks that you live outside the city and conveying the idea that you live in a country area or trendy town then correctness.
For anyone with a serious question they could access http://address.anpost.ie/ which gives postal addresses as recommended by the states postal authority, An Post, it is important to remember that this is the postal addresses recommended by An Post and can vastly vary with what people use themselves! From a postal perspective it will be interesting to see if the proposed postal code changes things. Djegan 01:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok - Djegan and Jnestorius have convinced me :-) Consider the proposal dropped by me for the forseeable future. I particularly like Jnestorius' suggestions for adding redirect links, and for giving more prominence to the new counties in article intros. Perhaps the easiest way to do it would be with a new, single, article on the three new counties which could be linked to from intros. I'll get started when I have time (real life has just intervened and will likely keep me busy for a few days). Bastun 01:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Was this ever resolved? See Ballinderry - there's so much POV on this page, I don't know where to start!
NotMuchToSay 17:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
When you are driving on the roads of Northern Ireland the road signs telling you what way a town is. Is in English NOT irish. More then 75% of people in Northern Ireland speak English, the system to paid by UK tax payers NOT irish tax payers. Newtownards 01:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Irish is not used in Northern Ireland. When you are walking the streets of any part you dont hear people talking Irish and the matter of fact the newtownards was named because it was a New Town in Ards so there is no irish about that.
You are from Ireland NOT Northern Ireland, and if your username has Derry in it, its clearly that you are irish or class yourself as irish. And Ards area is at North Down so that is why there is just one town in Northern called Newtownards. Newtownards 22:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Newtownards, in the case of roadsigns, yes - the vast majority of them are in 'English' only throughout Northern Ireland. However, the vast majority of them also have meanings which come from Gaelic or Scandanavian origins. Some of them make intresting stories, but most of them are descriptive as far as I'm aware. The same is the case in Scotland, Wales and in England. Most placenames throughout the British Isles have been 'Anglicised', which basically means they've been spelled phonetically at some point. It is a point of interest that, not only the origins of the names of places is included in the articles, but also the meanings of each - for this is the English language Wikipedia: the meanings of the original Irish, Scandanavian or Middle-English words aren't always apparent. -- Mal 00:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The following paragraph appears in the manual:
Republic of Ireland / Ireland in location introductions
A large number of Republic of Ireland towns and villages (and other types of articles too) state that they are in Ireland, not Republic of Ireland in the opening paragraph. This is misleading as it creates the impression that Ireland is one state. A compromise has been proposed at WP:IWNB that the form "is a town on the coast of [[County Cork]], [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]" should be used. This is already widely used and will allow it to appear as Ireland whilst linking to Republic of, as per Follow_local_conventions.
The statement at the heart of this nonsense "This is misleading as it creates the impression that Ireland is one state" is rubbish. The article on Ireland continues to be called "RoI" (which is NOT the name of the state) and this is 'justified' by supporters who claim that calling the article by a different name to the entity it refers to does not imply calling the country by the name of the article.
Yet this "style manual" would have us referring to, say, Dublin as being in, not IRELAND, but in a place called after the title of a Wiki article!! Let the discussion commence; if there are no reasioned and sustainable objections I'll delete that section in 24 hours. ( Sarah777 14:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
Nothing 'arbitrary' about my reasons for deletion. I have explained that I am not prepared to state that my home town is being part of a country that bears the name of a Wiki article rather than the name of my country. The compromise is not workable, I certainly won't be working it - so if 'discussion' isn't agreement then how do we get some change? ( Sarah777 15:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
Hmmmm. The usual heavies out to crush 'lil ole me!! OK. I withdraw. Again. I am down but not out; like Slattery's Mounted Foot I flee to fight another day. Too busy trying to devise a template for use on the National secondary roads articles to engage fully - did you know the N80 road is 140km long? ( Sarah777 17:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
Just following the style manual. And I DON'T agree that bad decisions must remain forever. How do I change it? Should I be trying to organise a ballot? (
Sarah777
19:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
And I suggest the reason you get repeated arguments is that new editors like myself keep popping up and are astonished and outraged at the set of rules for naming our own country some earlier Irish Wikipedians have acquiesced to. This will not end, in fact it could get much, much worse until a more balanced group of editorial opinion is assembled. I have withdrawn my call for deletion as I said; I can compromise. Now to APPLY the instructions implicit in the style manual. ( Sarah777 19:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
What do you mean by "difficult to assume good faith"? I have made my objections explicit, open and have rarely actually changed an article despite not being in any way impressed by the 'consensus'. I spend as much time here combating mindless vandalism as most others. And certainly at least one of the recently 'retired' editors was insufferably arrogant, rude and abusive (in my OPINION). But arising from the Ireland/RoI issue I have viewed a large number of other such disputes involving "nationalist" type issues; example - the use of 'volunteer' in IRA articles (to describe members of paramilitaries) appeared to draw many of the same people who refused to budge on the RoI issue to the "anti-Republican" side of the argument. Ditto Derry/L'Derry. So I am seeing possibly a concerted pov being imposed by certain folk here. I am almost afraid to read the numerous articles on Irish history and politics because I feel I'd spend my whole time fighting pov - whereas all I really want to do is write, organise and categorise articles about the villages, roads, hills, lakes and rivers of IRELAND. But I will not be a doormat either. Regards ( Sarah777 23:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
"As far as I remember, "Republic of Ireland" is what the constitution of that country states should be used in the case of ambiguity."
It says no such thing. Hence this whole debate. ( Sarah777 01:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
Furthermore, Mr Bell above says "The MOS here is about the towns and villages IN the Republic of Ireland." No it's not!!!! It is the MOS for Ireland-related articles - it says so on the tin!! Now can you see why I have problems with the reasoning behind the irregular naming conventions being dictated by a small group of editors here? FACTS appear to be irrelevant to the current controllers.
(I note a double revert of my CORRECT reference to RoI in the NI article, by Sony and then Bastun; - this is your idea of consensus?) ( Sarah777 02:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
Sarah777 asked on my talk page why I reverted her edit on the NI article "without any discussion or consultation". I should indeed have put in an edit summary, so apologies for that. My answer was: "Hi Sarah. Plain and simple, clarity. The previous version was The remainder of the island of Ireland is governed as a sovereign state, Ireland, also described as the Republic of Ireland. I thought it was a clumsy construction at best and confusing as hell for someone not familiar with the island. The replacement is clearer and accurate." Bastun 10:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Sarah777, like the comments on my talk page by you, more troll activity. Its quite clear at this stage that you will push your agenda irrespective of what anyone else thinks. Note to serious editors: get out while you can, is wikipedia really worth this type of nonsense? Djegan 10:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I note that Ben Bell added "RoI" reference to the Delgany article in what, in my OPINION is a hostile gesture in the circumstances of this debate. Furthermore, Ben, we have discussed the Constitution of IRELAND endlessly here and I finally (after others had debated the issue for over a year) nailed the FACT that the one and only NAME of the state is IRELAND.
As for the category thing, I cut and pasted the links and categories from earlier articles to save time and only noticed the error the other day. Most of my articles rigorously avoid any reference to the RoI. Like the Delgany one.
Re the NI article: "I thought it was a clumsy construction at best and confusing as hell for someone not familiar with the island." That, in my opinion is totally OTT;it MIGHT be slightly less succinct but it is more accurate and doesn't carry the embedded pov. Anyway I have repaired the damage, again.(
Sarah777
21:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
I see that Mr Bell is going down the list of my articles and provocatively adding RoI references to them. Is this what Wiki consensus is all about? And Mr Egan (allegedly retired) has referred to an explanation I requested for a poor edit he made as trolling. I have also had an edit called 'vandalism' and I have been called an 'extremist' by this group of "no pov!!!" editors. I become ever more convinced of the need to recruit some new moderate editors to restore some balance and achieve some compromise in relation to these issues. ( Sarah777 22:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
Ben, in most articles I avoided naming the country to avoid controversy. I REFUSE to use RoI as the name of this country, however I guess if you feel you gotta clean up my errors you gotta do what you gotta do! At least you're polite. Unlike some. (
Sarah777
22:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
If people feel that they must REFUSE to follow wikipedia consensus, policies, etc then they should leave, point blank. Because this is no place for trolling, which is the fundemental tone of Sarah777. Calm down. Its not the end of the world. (sarcastically). In wikipedia the community comes first not what one person insists on (and it does not help your case when said editor makes snipes at the Irish wikipedia community which is documented above). Wikipedia is not a dictatorship. Dont anyone fire back a comment about assuming good faith because that day is long gone, just look at the unwarranted torrent on my talk page. Trolling. Djegan 23:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Fundementally people we brought this problem onto ourselves. A failed compromise was reached at Republic of Ireland and now seamingly one editor is going to implement that as their policy and REFUSE anything else. This is a form of failed fundementalism. Whatever the name of the Irish state, adopted in this encyclopedia is, when referring to said state then that adopted term should be used consistantly throughout. This does not mean that we would deliberately misinform on the name of an document or office, for instance, Constitution of Ireland or President of Ireland, or that we could not point out that the name of that state is "Ireland". But it does mean that the adopted name is used firstly and most prominantly when referring to the state. Anything else is just illogical and opens the door for trolls and pov-pushers, or whatever this weeks topical term is. Djegan 00:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello DJ, Your increasingly abusive attacks on me are becoming tedious. Must you always talk in such OTT terms? "just look at the unwarranted torrent on my talk page." Unwarrented torrent? !!!! In the context of the abusive remarks that you addressed to me, really!
Here is the 'unwarrented torrent': Kindly do NOT revert my corrections without any consultation. You do not own this article, as you appear to believe. RoI is ONE of TWO "Official descriptions". One is in the Act you cited; the other is in the Constitution.
Yep folks - that's it! Taramoon is absolutely correct; sometimes pov is so embedded that the owners simply can't see it. ( Sarah777 00:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC))
Hi all! Wikipedia uses Londonderry for the county and Derry for the city; this is quite an arbitrary naming convention not used anywhere else. I propose that, like everywhere else, Wikipedia employs the name Londonderry for articles pertaining to unionists and unionism and Derry for articles pertaining to nationalists and nationalism. Cheers gaillimh Conas tá tú? 01:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Irish is not an Offical Language of the United Kindom (which includes Northern Ireland) or the EU. If you wish to put Irish in all Northern Ireland Articles i suggest that you also include other lanuages used in the UK Mainland. Wikipedia wants to enforce Irish onto Northern Ireland topics then Other languages used in the UK should be included in their articles too. It is only fair and correct to do so as it follows the same lines are you focus northern ireland topics to be writing to. Craig7006 16:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Craig, you've stated twice that Irish isn't an official language of the EU - you're incorrect. See Irish language. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 19:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Craig, with regard to place names in Northern Ireland, it is my understanding that Irish-language places names, where they exist, for places in Northern Ireland are valid under Northern Irish law. I'll look this up further but for the time being see the Department for Regional Development Code Of Courtesy For Irish:
-- sony-youth pléigh 21:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Re: "A large number of Republic of Ireland towns and villages (and other types of articles too) state that they are in Ireland, not Republic of Ireland in the opening paragraph. This is misleading as it creates the impression that Ireland is one state. A compromise has been proposed at WP:IWNB that the form "is a town on the coast of County Cork, Ireland" should be used. This is already widely used and will allow it to appear as Ireland whilst linking to Republic of, as per Follow local conventions."
To quote Sarah777, this is nonsense, rubbish and tripe. Using the word Ireland gives the impression it is one state? How, exactly? The power of republican positive thinking? This is absolute bilge, and seems to be the work of Ben W Bell, acting unilaterally. Despite being told of an "agreement" and a "compromise", I found neither. Not here, not at WP:IWNB.
Lapsed Pacifist 21:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the "conversation". I was originally told of an "agreement" and a "compromise", but there's no sign of those. And if we write the name of the state for places south and west of a line running through Ulster, why do we use a regional name for places north and east of it, rather than the name of the state which currently has jurisdiction over that area?
Lapsed Pacifist 10:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The debate on the guidelines for what to call the Twenty-six County Area doesn't concern me. Rather it's that the use of the state rather than the country for locations is being insisted upon. Most people who live in the TSCA don't identify as "Republic of Irish". Their country is Ireland, and they're not referring to just part of it, whatever a particular state's official title. No-one has been able to explain to me why the state's name isn't being used for locations in the Six Counties. If the regional name gets preferment there, why not regional names for the rest of the country?
Lapsed Pacifist 13:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
It may be helpful to add that when the English spoken in Ireland differs from other varieties of English, it should be followed in Irish articles; this is already in MOS itself, as national varieties of English, but it may tend to turn down the heat here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Browsed to the Lurgan article and noted that it had the UK places infobox. I thought that it should have been the Ireland places infobox? There could be more, have't checked. -- Bill Reid | Talk 09:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed recently that there is an increase again in the number of articles having an Irish translation provided at the beginning of the article, mainly the NI airport related articles. Now, correct me if I'm wrong by all means, I was under the impression that the Irish version was if there was an official Irish name it was known by, or an original Irish name that the name was Angliciinsed from. I was under the impression that it wasn't simply to be used as a means of translating the name into Irish. Wikipedia is not an English/Irish dictionary. So can we have some clarification on this as it is causing some minor edit wars on some of the airport articles (and I'm sure elsewhere). Should an Irish translation be provided if that is all it is, a back translation, or should it only be used if there is an official Irish name used for the location (in these cases an airport) or if it was Anglicised from an Irish name or word. I personally don't believe it is there simply to provide a translation, but others do think otherwise and the MOS isn't clear. The example I talk about at the minute is Newtownards Airport. Now this airport doesn't have any Irish translations on its signage or any official paperwork associated with it, and the Irish put on the page is simply someone translating it into Irish. Ben W Bell talk 11:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sony-youth, rather than the slightest suggestion that what I have said has any merit, you decide instead to dismiss me as a crack. If you think I am "losing the plot" then show where. Comment on content, not on the contributor, WP:NPA.
Bascially what you are proposing is a convoluted process of what already happens, and I think thats a bad basis for proposing anything - rules on rules. Its anything but a manual of style, its a guideline come policy (content and rationale). As things are material gets included through consensus and that material is subject to verification on request. Their was neither consensus nor verification for Newtownards Airport.
I know what a "blue-chip publishing house" is but nothing is WP:VERIFY states that sources must be so and theirfore we should not limit ourselves in that manner. Its as simple as that, no need for a whole section procrastinating how we should decide if Irish is included because its just recodifing existing guidelines and policies. I know about WP:NOR and stand over it, but QUB was a different matter. University College Cork uses the term in its history section [46] - would that pass WP:NOR and WP:VERIFY - yes (I am sure their is more citations available, I believe some where provided, but their was no accusation at the time that the QUB Irish name was "made up"). Are we the corporate identity police of any third party - no. If a term or fact is known in wider society than that maybe a basis for inclusion if it passes WP:VERIFY, and other guidelines and policies. We don't include things just because a third party says its so, and don't exclude it just because they don't say its so. Sorry, this isn't kindergarten or the press office of whatever place, organisation, or event.
The manual of style should be used to determine layout, not content, its not a quasi-official rewrite of official policies and guidelines for Irish language in articles. Djegan 19:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
While browsing I came across this, where someone's birthplace is listed as " Cork, County Cork, UK". I decided to change it to Ireland instead of the UK, and tried using [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|Ireland]] (which I've seen before) as a possible compromise as the editor has been edit warring over that and contributes to plenty of Northern Ireland related articles (surprise, surprise!). Only that wasn't good enough, so they linked Ireland directly and added on UK afterwards. So my questions are these:
Input welcome. One Night In Hackney 303 03:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Irish Wikipedians - (And yes I include User:Rockpocket !!) - Please see this article and recent edit history.
This is the English wiki and thus the names uses should be those used most commonly in the English language (i.e. not neccessarily English), thats an often repeated guideline. And this is not the press office of the Irish Government. Their is a wiki at ga.wikipedia.org for those who wish to use Irish. Djegan 22:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
There are many different opinions among Irish people as well as to Wikipedians in general. This Manual of Style is designed to codify these guidelines in order to avoid future edit wars in regard to English and Irish names. Above all, when in doubt, use English. ℬastique▼ talk 30 June 2005 16:24 (UTC)
I fail to see the point of insisting on the English spelling of Ros Muc. It reads and is pronounced the same in both languages, unlike other names that would be mispronounced by readers unfamiliar with Irish.
Lapsed Pacifist 30 June 2005 20:44 (UTC)
Precisely because it is the English spelling--and the English spelling is notable enough, and it's, well, the English spelling. ℬastique▼ talk 30 June 2005 21:01 (UTC)
I take your point on the drum banging, I've seen it. My point was not specifically about Rosmuck. I just don't think it's a good example for the guideline given, as both versions would be pronounced accurately by some-one with no knowledge of Irish. This would not be the case for Inis Mór (Inishmore), which in my opinion would make it a better example. I don't think the article should be renamed or that the Irish version should be used gratuitously, although it's good that there is a redirect for Ros Muc. Articles on Gaeltacht towns and villages should also spell out clearly that the English name is not the official one.
Lapsed Pacifist 30 June 2005 21:51 (UTC)
If you read the example again, you'll see that it explicitly states Where English and Irish name are the same or similar, but English and Irish spelling differ, use the English spelling. Actually, I would have had no idea that Inis Mór and Inishmore sound identical. ℬastique▼ talk 30 June 2005 22:53 (UTC)
I would argue that for Gaeltacht (Irish speaking) areas like Ros Muc and Inis Mór, the correct spelling is the Irish spelling rather than the English version. Peoples names and place names should be exempt from the "this is an english encyclopedia rule". This is particularly true since a new law in Ireland plans to phase out all official usage of English placenames for Gaeltacht areas. Bandraoi 00:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Since the enacting of the Official Languages Act 2003 the continued use of the anglicised versions of placenames in Gaeltacht areas makes no sense at all. All road signs and official maps are now using the defined name in Irish. This practice is aleady beginning to lead to the up-dating of tourist maps. To continue to cling to the use of, often multiple, anglicised versions is unfair to those planning on visiting the country. I would suggest the way forward is to use a format similar to: Árainn (also sometimes called Inis Mór and anglicised as Inishmore. A reference to the act in relevant articles wopuld also help clarify. Whatever peoples' views on this topic Wikipedia articles should reflect the signage etc. of the area being written on. Taibhdhearc 14:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that isn't a point that I missed. If we in Ireland decide to call a town 'Z' and then proceed to use this name on all our signposts and government publications surely it makes perfect sense to adapt to this situation. In fact the word 'rosmuck', for example, is not an English word per se. A name is a tag to aid someone in recognising a location, particularly important if you are trying to find a place. I wouldn't recommend an article on Kingstown, Queenstown or Marysborough although a reference to the use of these names for an historic period might aid someone beginning to research history on a given area. Taibhdhearc 15:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe the expression is 'the exception that proves the rule'. London is referred to as Londres on the fr.wikipedia but that is not carried through to other towns and cities, much as English people use 'Le Havre' today. It is, of course, an interesting area of debate on the respect of local naming conventions, even to the level of state names. While I would accept there is probably no black and white in this topic it would be a good thing, I believe, to see respect for the naming conventions of the local population, never mind the whole signposting and mapping aspects. Taibhdhearc 16:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I recently returned to Dublin after living in the Connamara Gaeltacht and I must point out here that the names of towns of Gaeltacht areas are called by their Irish names in both English and Irish. This is not simply as a result of recent legislation. I have been banging my head on the wall in utter frustration trying to find certain articles on Gaeltacht towns. I look at the map and there is no English, I look at road signs and there is no English, I listen to TV and radio in both English and Irish and there is never a reference to these towns with their supposed English names (An Daingean is an obvious exception to this). Wikipedia should reflect this in full. Quite simply, there should be a very different set of rules for Gaeltacht towns than there is for Galltacht towns. Jamesnp 18:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
For contributers wanting to fill articles with a myriad of alternative Irish spellings, watch this space [1]. Statutory orders have been made for some places within counties and also for all provinces and counties within the Republic of Ireland. Djegan 30 June 2005 21:13 (UTC)
Of course I want to include a section on precicely which English to use, but I'm unsure of the ways that proper UK English and proper Ireland English differ. Have the Irish disposed of that rather ugly use of "-ise" instead of "-ize" that almost nobody except the Brits seem to retain? ℬastique▼ talk 30 June 2005 23:23 (UTC)
Actually Irish people use ise rather than ize. Many people are irritated by the Americanised ize. Hiberno-English opts to use ise where popular. I think your belief that it is only the Brits who want to keep ise is way wide of the mark. It is still widely used in International English. In fact ize is seen as part in many parts of the world as part of American linguistic imperialism. FearÉIREANN
(talk) 1 July 2005 22:47 (UTC)
1. If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, this should be reflected in Wikipedia. Thus, we do not refer to Martin Kyne but to Mairtín Ó Cadhain etc.
2. In Irish orthography, there is a space between Mac and the rest of the surname, e.g. Seán Mac Eoin, Seán Mac Stiofáin etc. In English orthography, there is apparently no space between the Mc or Mac and the rest of the surname but this is not entirely true. Some surnames do have spaces between them, it depends. An example would be "Mc Brearty".
3. In Irish, the O in surnames always takes an accent and is always followed by a space, e.g. Tomás Ó Deirg.
4. When transcribing from old Gaelic script, please relect the modern and standard forms of Irish spelling, especially in the use of the letter h. Thus, Aed becomes Aedh or Aodh, Domnall becomes Domhnall, Ruaidri becomes Ruaidhrí.
5. Fadas (accents) must always be used if necessary. There is no excuse for omitting them.
6. Unmarried girls and women are identified by "Ní"; married women by "Uí." Hence if Aoife Ní Bhraonáin were to marry a man named Tomás Ó Cuinneagáin, her married name would be Aoife Uí Chuinneagáin (or Aoife, Bean [Mrs.] Uí Chuinneagáin). Note the change in the form of the surname (Cuinneagáin --> Chuinneagáin) for females.
Damac added these in to the MoS page. He probably didn't know that unilateral changes need to go here first and be discussed, not directly on MoS pages without discussion.
Some of them are also incompatible with the overall MoS and so cannot be applied.
For example:
1. If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, this should be reflected in Wikipedia.
That is not Wikipedia policy at all. Its policy is to use the version of a name used by English speakers. If English speakers use Mairtín Ó Cadhain and Mairtín Ó Muilleoir, as they do, then that is what is used. But though he called himself Sean T Ó Ceallaigh, because English speakers know him as Sean T. O'Kelly the second president's name is written as Sean T. O'Kelly.
Wikipedia uses Taoiseach not because that is what the Irish prime minister is called in the Constitution but because people use Taoiseach in English. In contrast it does not use the Spanish title for Spain's prime minister because that name, unlike Taoiseach, is not used by English speakers. Similarly Wikipedia uses Kaiser because the word is used by English speakers to refer to the German Emperor. But, though he too was a Kaiser, we call the Austrian monarch Emperor because English speakers never use Kaiser when referring to Austrian Emperors. We use Wilhelm II of Germany, not William, because Wilhelm is used by English speakers so it will be recognised. But we call the last Russian Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, not Nikolai which is what he called himself, because English speakers know him as Nicholas, and would not recognise an article on Nikolai II of Russia.
Because each language Wikipedia has names in it from around the world, the rule is that each Wikipedia, whether in English, French, German, Italian, Irish or whichever, only uses the form of name familiar to users of that Wikipedia. If the native name is familiar to users of that Wikipedia it is used. If it isn't, the version they know is used. So on the Italian Wikipedia, there is no Taoiseach because no-one in Italian calls Bertie Ahern that.
The golden rule on this English Wikipedia is that the form of name used by English speakers; not the English language version nor the native language version, but whichever readers will recognise. So it is Mairtín Ó Cadhain but Sean T. O'Kelly, Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh but Rory O'Connor, Taoiseach but President of Ireland, etc. is used. If a MoS entry is created to make Irish language names different to all others then it is likely to be deleted on sight by users because everyone across all languages has to follow the one set of rules, with no deviations. Each language cannot follow its own we're doing it differently rule.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
00:07, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Point 4 is very ambiguous. How such names are transcribed depends entirely on context. In referring to Old Irish it could be quite valid to retain the original spelling and some old spellings are simply the normal way of referring to people. Let not go overboard with standardising. — Moilleadóir 07:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Dáithí Ó Conaill is very straightforward. That was his name. There is no confusion in terms of fact. Ó Conaill is simply the original of the anglicised O'Connell/Connell etc etc. O' is obviously incorrect, and the O without the fada is used when people cannot put the fada, but are giving the respect of acknowledging it's an Irish language prefix.
The point regarding the Kaiser is not that everyone called him Wilhelm in English. They didn't. But it was used widely enough to be recognisable. Therefore the native name works by recognition and can be used. Nikolai II in contrast does not, but Umberto II of Italy does. Daithí Ó Conaill is IMHO the most recognisable version. Sean MacEoin is recognisable, Sean Mac Eoin, with the additional spacing, is not and should only be used for the Irish version of the name, not the name used in English. The rule on Wikipedia is not to use the person's name as they use it, but to use the version as generally used. Sean T. always used the Irish language version of his name. Ernest Blythe did too. But as neither were generally known, however they might have wished otherwise, by their Irish name, it would be completely wrong to use it in articles here. If Gerhard Schröder was known to English speakers as Gerry Shroder, then that is how Wikipedia would name him. Luckily for him his native name is what is also used in English.
FearÉIREANN
\
(caint)
14:58, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Any chance we could get this one sorted out - it's been lying here since August. I've read through the comments and have modified my proposals thus:-- Damac 16:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Right now this MoS subpage only deals with geographical articles, but it needs to be extended to biographical articles. I think it's uncontroversial to say people best known in English by their English name (e.g. Mary McAleese) should be listed under that name and not under their Irish name (e.g. Máire Mhic Ghiolla Íosa). Likewise people who only use their Irish name, even in English contexts, should be listed under their Irish name (e.g. Cathal Ó Searcaigh). But there was a kerfuffle a while back about Geoffrey Keating, who is best known in English as that, but who was Irish-speaking and probably never used that name himself. The compromise we found was to follow the example of Ovid and list the article under Geoffrey Keating but have the first sentence read "Seathrún Céitinn, known in English as Geoffrey Keating, was...". Does this sound like a reasonable addition? -- Angr ( tɔk) 16:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Correct Irish orthography in naming people
5. Fadas (accents) must always be used if necessary. There is no excuse for omitting them.
As this has been in discussion since August and no further commments/objections have been made to my proposals, I have added Correct Irish orthography in naming people to the article page. -- Damac 09:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
A further problem arises when a difference exists between the modern Irish form of the name and the original form. For instance the article on Terence MacSwiney is listed under the English form of the name, but a disagreement exists as to how to describe the Irish version. A user listed this as Traolach Mac Suibhne, which I changed to Toirdhealbhach on discovering that that was the form used in his contemporary printed works. Damac later reverted that, making the point that the version 'Traolach' is the one used on his monument (a picture of which is on the page). However, I am not convinced this is appropriate - the monument appears to date from much later (around the 1960s or 1970s, I would guess) and reflects modern rather than contemporary usage. I am fairly sure, and will check, that MacSwiney actually used the form 'Toirdhealbhach' as his signature, and my view is that that is the form that should be used. However, I would like to hear what others think of this. Rbreen 20:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I have found no reference to this on Wikipedia. I would like to see all surnames that begin with "Mc" alphabetised as though they were "Mac", e.g. in categories. This is what the eircom phonebook does. A number of Irish Wikipedians also seem to do it this way. You will find categories with a mixture of both policies.
Obviously, this would affect the MoS for the whole of Wikipedia; it can't be contained to Irish articles. Scottish editors might also have an opinion on the matter, and, of course, many Americans have "Mc" surnames. What do people think? Ian Cheese 22:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I think we need guidelines about what terms to use for the 2 jurisdictions on Ireland, particularly in category names. Here are some proposals to get a discussion started: (See #Names of areas and #Nature of areas sections below). For the purposes of this discussion I refer to the 3 areas as C6, C26 and C32 - based on the number of traditional counties in each. Joestynes 13:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Currently we have
Category:Irish heads of government Category:Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland Terence O'Neill etc Category:First Ministers of Northern Ireland David Trimble Category:Heads of Irish provisional governments Cathal Brugha etc Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State W.T. Cosgrave and Dev Category:Taoisigh of Ireland Bertie Ahern etc
I would rather see
Category:Irish heads of government Category:Heads of government of Northern Ireland Category:Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland Terence O'Neill etc Category:First Ministers of Northern Ireland David Trimble Category:Heads of Irish provisional governments Cathal Brugha etc Category:Heads of government of C26 Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State W.T. Cosgrave and Dev Category:Taoisigh of Ireland Bertie Ahern etc
2 questions:
I'm not sure about 1920-1922 or 1937-1949 for C26. Category:Prime Ministers of C26 would be a useful supercategory for Category:Taoisigh of Ireland and Category:Presidents of the Executive Council of the Irish Free State, but no convenient name springs to mind. Ireland would probably not be misunderstood in most applicable contexts, but I'm loath to recommmend it after all the preceding cautions.
Theres been some disagreement over this on Talk:Gerry Adams, with some entirely conflicting views to a similar discussion on the Irish noticeboard, and with one user effectively threatening to "start an official discussion on it", I'm doing it myself.
This is the English language Wikipedia, and the vast majority of Irish people, be they arguably or not arguably "Irish", are named in English. Yet there are large numbers of articles which feature a translation of their name in to Irish. This is an almost unique situation - in no other cases are names which are already in English converted to another language, only those which have been Anglified (e.g. from Irish itself, or, as is most common, from languages which do not utilise Latin characters - a notable Irishman himself, Chaim Herzog, serving as a good example here).
Modern names in Ireland generally do not have any genuine Irish version, everything is a back translation. These back-translations vary from region to region, and family to family depending from the same Irish surname - my own surname (Duffy) is one which varies heavily, as does O'Connell - examples of which are further up this page.
We already have a policy for people who were named in Irish or who almost always use an Irish form of their name. In these cases, their every day name is in Irish, so it should be listed as such and an English version or translation given where applicable - all well and good, all covered.
Yet we have many people whos name has never been in Irish. And there is a translation given which is completetly unverifiable - violating WP:V. Giving a translation in to one language that the name is not in and not others is a violation of the NPOV policy - WP:NPOV. And its a borderline violation of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), as completely unnessacery non-English text is being used
In a case like, oh, I'll take Bertie Ahern as an example, our current Taoiseach is called Patrick Bartholemhew Ahern, commonly known as Bertie Ahern. Yet we have an entirely out-of-context "Pádraig Parthalán Ó hEachthairn" thrown in there for good measure. For the google search "Bartholomew in Irish", we get such possible versions of the name as "Bairtleméad", and very few google results for "Parthalán" return "Bartholomew" as an English language version, indeed it gets returned as having an English version of "Barclay" on some references. This shows how entirely unverifiable an Irish back-translation is.
Now, Mr. Ahern was born in an English speaking area of the country in the 1950's. He was almost certainly named entirely in English and hence no "Irish version" of his name exists. Generating one for him is a clear violation of the policies on No Original Research WP:NOR. Googling for the Irish version of his name provided does turn up some decent references, however most drop the Pádraig. The Wikipedia, in Irish, is the highest result. This is where I admit that Bertie was probably a bad example for NOR...
Anyway... what could be as simple as a few words in brackets can easily lead to the violation of a huge number of Wikipedia policies. Hence, I'm proposing that for where someone was named in English, ONLY the English-language form of their name is used, as Use English would suggest. Where an Irish version of their name is used by themselves in English consistantly or they were actually named in Irish, the current rules would still apply, of course.
Nationalistic issues must be set aside here - its irrelevant that "Irish is a national language". In the case of those people from Nothern Ireland, both Irish and Ulster Scots are recognised national languages; and for the UK, I don't see a Welsh version of "Anthony Charles Lyndon Blair" appearing Tony Blair appearing on his page, despite its national language status in the UK. There is no justifiable reason whatsoever to expend effort back-translating names which are not in Irish to Irish for the English language Wikipedia. If people wish to expend effort on translation to Irish, there is an Irish language Wikipedia which is growing in usage all the time and will no doubt be happy to take any contributions. -- Kiand 22:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Citability is always an issue, once someone makes a request or their is a dispute. Citeability is the standard that wikipedia sets, it is not acceptable to prove simply that a name can be translated. Djegan 15:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify and expand were I stand; when we are adding/retaining a disputed name we need more than a abstract web page somewhere to prove it. Moreover, the belief that we must provide a translation because someone is "nationalist" is bogus, should we provide Ulster Scots for "unionists" - no. If we give translations simply because of this criteria then this is slavish and fundementally insecure, we must show it has some degree of relevence to the article not simply a means of panning out the body of the article. Djegan 18:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My dhá phingin on this: I agree that Irish versions of personal names should not be used without good reason. I think RTÉ Nuacht always calls Bertie Bertie rather than Parthalán, though I have seen the Irish name on the bilingual plaque unveiled at the Cork main sewerage scheme (the glamour!). Charlie Haughey was Cathal ó hEochaidh on Nuacht however; his mother called him Cathal too; he was Minister for the Gaeltacht; I'm prepared to be inclusive in borderlinecases. But in general I imagine the only articles this is being added to are politicians: would anyone put Robáird ó Catháin on Robbie Keane's page? That is a sign that something unobjective is at work.
As regards placenames, the Irish version should always be given for counties, provinces and natural features, and in the Republic of Ireland for urban areas. Not sure about new towns in NI where any neolgistic Irish parity-of-esteem name may never be used. Not sure about smallscale human features like parks, streets, buildings, stadiums, etc. jnestorius( talk) 21:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that the political location be described in the form Townname is a town/village in County Countyname, Republic of Ireland, and is located in the geographicregion of Ireland.
So for example; Cratloe is a village in County Clare, Republic of Ireland, located in the midwest of Ireland.
What do people think? I think it's appropriate to link to both ROI and Ireland, as the places are located in both.
zoney ♣ talk 13:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I think we need to be careful on this one. Regional identity in Ireland (i.e. other than counties) is not very strong. Their are no hard and fast definitions of regions. Djegan 18:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I propose that the following preferred style be added to this page:
Thoughts? The existing articles on towns in Ireland near-universally follow the above format.
zoney ♣ talk 13:57, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest amending this section as follows:
'''Townname''' ([[Irish language|Irish]]: ''Ainmbhaile'')
and continuing from there. This is just to ensure consistent formatting; that "Irish" is linked and disambiguated to Irish language, with the actual Irish placename being italicised.
zoney ♣ talk 14:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed a small ambiguity in the current wording of the guidelines on naming people and this has to do with the question when a space should be included after Mac in surnames. Paragraph one states:
Taking this then, we should refer to Tomás Mac Giolla using the Irish version of his name. However, paragraph 3 specifies:
I think some clarification is necessary in both paragraph three, and I propose that they be re-worded thus (changes in bold):
What do people think?-- Damac 15:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Is there any convention on the appropriate reference to Ireland where what is being described is a genuinely island-wide phenomenon, or where the phenomoneon exists more to the North of the island (such as a geographical phenomoneon to do with the weather, social habits, etc.) where the border does not have any practical apparent significance? The problem arises because one cannot use Northern Ireland synonymously with the North of the island and on the other hand you don't want to give the impression you are deliberately avoiding reference to Northern Ireland.
The problem arose on the Coleraine aritlce re. the town centre being referred to as a "Diamond", something, I am assured, whcih occurs also in the North of the Republic. Having raised the matter on two other talk pages the two users who responded both felt that it was just not worth the hassle of referring to the north of the island. Am I being naive in thinking there must be some way of referring to the north of the island that most reasonable people from different political perspectives would find acceptable? Lucifer 11:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
"Ulster" should be acceptable and accurate too in your example of diamonds. I would have thought "Ireland" would be sufficent for "island-wide phenomena". Halib Frisk 09:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Currently metric units are been given second place over imperial in County Down, comments are welcome at talk:County Down. Their may be an implication for this manual of style. Djegan 23:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay query, how should historical references be handled with reference to Derry/Londonderry. The city was called Londonderry between dates in historical periods before it's current renaming back to Derry, which is supported under this MOS. Now all present day references should be to Derry, no questions asked. I changed a couple of articles that pointed to Londonderry to point to Derry then though, hold on. Should the historical ones from when it was named Londonderry to when it was renamed back to Derry use Derry or Londonderry? It's not as clear cut as County Derry/Londonderry as there was never a County Derry, but I don't think this point has been discussed here before and a way forward on this one is needed, or is the IMOS as it currently stands sufficient for these usages? I don't care much either way, but a guidance one way or another would be useful. I personally (I know I said I don't care) weigh towards using Londonderry in it's correct historical periods prior to the council renaming, simply due to historical weight and official usage, but a guideline would be useful. Can we have a non-POV academic discussion on this and maybe a vote at the end? Ben W Bell talk 15:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a good question and prob not easily answered. It could be easy to set the agenda so that articles would be written in a way to suit a particular view point, yet their maybe times when the alternative variation is neccessary. In particular quotations which occassionally get rewritten (I am not saying where) to suit an agenda. I do not think that we should slavishly follow WP:IMOS but that using the alternative variation should be the except rather than the rule. Djegan 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as precedent goes:
I haven't made my mind up on this yet, there seems to be precedent for both choices. Demiurge 21:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not a resident of Derry - I've only lived there in short stints amounting to a matter of weeks. I do think the city should be named Derry in any reference to the present-day location, as per this current IMoS. Obviously it should be called Londonderry if the text is quoting someone, or if the text is describing, in that sentence or paragraph, the name itself, or the origin vis-a-vis the London Companies etc. Articles referring to the location before the London Companies charter should refer to the place as Derry again.
My personal preference may well be to write Londonderry, and to say Derry - but that's more to do with my own personal style than anything else really. I can't remember the history off-hand right now.. I assume the county was (re-)named after the town, whereby previously County Derry/Londonderry hadn't existed. I think the current IMoS is probably 'correct' as such, and I find it to be a pleasant compromise.
I know for a fact that the Civil Service in Northern Ireland always replies to correspondence using the name the initial contact used - a letter from Joe Bloggs, Derry will be replied to the address Joe Bloggs, Derry and a letter from John Smith, Londonderry will be addressed to John Smith, Londonderry.
I appreciate that the question is relating to the historical references, but I think the most important thing is the reader. It should be made clear to the reader (and we, as editors, should always assume the reader is ignorant) that both the city and county (and the council etc etc) are both called Londonderry and Derry, and note the 'official' names of them (to my knowledge, the official names are: Londonderry City, Londonderry County and Derry Council).
Basically, stick with the current IMoS unless the reference is specifically regarding the name, the 'controversy', or quotations. Also, use Londonderry, I guess, when referring to official laws that had been passed which refer to Londonderry. That's my initial instinct anyway. -- Mal 04:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to avoid using either name? The article can use terms like "the walled city", "the historic centre" and so on - it is obvious from context that we aren't writing about Dubrovnik. If it starts to become silly, find some relevant historic text to quote (preferably older than 1690!). If the historical text used the L word, it has to stand because it is a verbatim quote. But be ultra careful to ration usage tightly and sensitively, as there is a risk of emulating the Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy! -- Red King 20:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
IMHO the current stance of the city of Derry, in the County of Londonderry should be followed unless there are good reasons (other than pedantry) for deviating. For example a document concerning the Irish Society may refer the historic Londonderry (city) name, or articles mentioning such things as a 'Londonderry Regiment' or 'First Londonderry Presbyterian Church'. In general though, few people refer to events in "New Amsterdam" in 1650 - they refer to modern "New York", unless they are discussing the Dutch presence in the "New World" (another disused term).. Likewise, imho, referring to the modern city of Derry should be the norm. Blowmonkey 13:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
So does WP:IMOS onlyh apply in article titles or what is the story?
WP:IMOS states "Use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county for article titles. The naming dispute can be discussed in the articles when appropriate."
So does it not apply to uses in the artivle itself?
Its seems a bit stupid to me that we can't say County Derry in articles like GAA-related ones. Derry Boi 22:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree its got to the stage where the agreement on {{WP:IMOS]] has become a joke. I think its not unreasonable to have a better compromise, I would suggest:
The artciles about the city and county themselves be called what the majoroty of citizens in each would refer to them as. This seems to have preedance in Wikipedia. This would mean the city article being called "Derry" and the county artcile being called "County Derry".
As fr the likes of towns, villages etc in County Derry. We should describe their location as what most people in the town/village would refer to them as. Obviouslsy, while not ideal, the only real way we could have of this is using the 2001 Census results and if a town/village is predomantly Catholic, we descibe it as being in "County Derry", and if a town is predomantly Protestant, we describe it as being in "County Londonderry".
On articles such as GAA ones, we really should be using "County Derry".
Opinions?
Derry Boi
17:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
You need to re-read my statements, carefully this time. Links should be simple with no trickery, and direct to the article, theirfore for instance [[Derry]] for "Derry" and [[County Londonderry]] for "County Londonderry". Put simple, no piped or redirect links - just use the term as decided by the article title for that term. If people are unhappy with current article titles then they should consider WP:RM and respect the current article title, whatever it may be. Djegan 00:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
There's a revert war proceeding merrily about wartime usage. US Naval sources refer to "Londonderry" when referring to the wartime use of military bases in the Derry area. In general, I would respect the US (and historic UK) naming for their bases, probably adding a reference to Derry. Note also that Derry City Council refer to the port as "Londonderry Port" [4]. Any consensus? Folks at 137 12:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Derry Boi ( talk • contribs)
I have put a stub at Londonderry Port - have fun. -- Henrygb 17:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Their is a vote to move Cork to Cork (city), not all the proposals confirm to this manual of style, for voting and discussion see talk:Cork#Survey. Djegan 12:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
There's a bit of trouble over this word across several articles at the moment ( Séamus McElwaine ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Thomas Begley ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Joseph MacManus ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Bobby Sands ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)) and I'd like the community's help in reaching a consensus. My view is that using "volunteer" for IRA members is unacceptably POV as it has strong positive implications (just look at the Volunteer article). Also it is used almost exclusively by the IRA and their sympathisers, rarely or never by external sources.
It has been argued that this is a military rank used by the IRA, but the Green Book does not seem to support this — it uses "volunteer" as a generic term for all IRA members. My preference is to use the word "member" instead; what do other people think? Demiurge 15:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Did you even look at those sites? They're all either 1) direct quotes from republicans ( [5] [6] [7]) or 2) from people with apparent republican sympathies ([ [8] [9]). The BBC story [10] is about the Irish Volunteers not the IRA and this link [11] supports my case by putting the word "volunteer" in quotes. [12] is about the IRA putting out a list of its own dead members so they're going to find it hard to avoid IRA terminology. Demiurge 21:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
You are now clutching at straws(like you do everytime people dont agree with you)! Since when has is the Irish Voice newspaper a republican paper? and why would the guardian (a british paper) feel the need to dance around what you call "IRA terminology" - what about the other links? care to explain why those non republican source also use the term Volunteer? Finally, here are some more to get you teeth into -
That kind of puts to bed your arguement that only republican use the term. Vintagekits 22:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
site | "IRA volunteer" | "IRA member" | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
google URL | count | google URL | count | |
cnn.com | [16] | 1 | [17] | 51 |
guardian.co.uk | [18] | 80 | [19] | 200 |
scotsman.com | [20] | 2 | [21] | 201 |
timesonline.co.uk | [22] | 27 | [23] | 69 |
cain.ulst.ac.uk | [24] | 28 | [25] | 52 |
ivanfoster.org | [26] | 3 | [27] | 16 |
mirror.co.uk | [28] | 0 | [29] | 9 |
ulsternation.org.uk | [30] | 1 | [31] | 0 |
bbc.co.uk | [32] | 16 | [33] | 186 |
ireland.com | [34] | 2 | [35] | 15 |
archives.tcm.ie | [36] | 35 | [37] | 164 |
jnestorius( talk) 02:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Volunteer seems fine to me. It doesn't seem POV to me. Also I'm sure (without checking) British troops are described as their releavnt rank on wikipedia.
The IRA described members as volunteers. I mightn't see the Queen as very majestic, but I suppose if I removed "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II" from her page, I wouldn't get away with it for too long.
members of the "Privy Council of the United Kingdom" have "Right Honourable" put before their name. Surely if Volunteer is POV, then so is Right Honourable? Derry Boi 20:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
To most people this is a confusing sentence. It seems to say that he was helping out the IRA. Clearer might be:Sean Murphy is an IRA volunteer
but only if volunteer is a genuine rank that we can verify and not just a term for all IRA members only used by Republicans. As the IRA does not publish membership lists and ranks, the best you could do is state that someone was alleged or found in court or stated himself that he held that rank.''Sean Murphy holds the rank of volunteer in the IRA
''Sean Murphy was alleged to be a member of the IRA. An Phoblacht stated the he held the rank of volunteer
There is no confusion. The sentence has no double meaning and calling someone a private does not show approval or disapproval.John Smith was a private in the British army
You would need a source so that readers could verify the rank. Curtains99 23:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)John Smith held the rank of private in the British army.
Sean Murphy was a member of the IRA, who held the rank of volunteer.[reference]
Sean Murphy was an IRA volunteer.[reference]
"Volunteer" is a loaded term, which has connotations of good acts. It was a term used by the IRA groups themselves, and as they are banned terrorist organisations (in ROI, Britain, and US), using their language would be wrong. "Member" is surely a better term as it is NEUTRAL. Logica 13:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see a problem with the term. If you chose to join a particular incarnation of the IRA, then you are a volunteer. Just like of you chose to join the Masons or the Orange Order, you do so of freewill, therefore you volunteered. 74.13.87.196 03:39, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The historical nature of the term must surely be known before anyone can make a judgement on this term. Read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Volunteers and then it will become quite clear from where the term came and why it is not as sinister as some, obviously anti-Irish republican comments, seem to think (unsigned comment).
Volunteer / Óglach is the correct term to describe soldiers of the Irish Republic. Óglaigh na hÉireann (the IRA) - which is under the direction of the Continuity Army Council - is the National Army of the Irish Republic (hence Irish Republican Army). The Continuity Army Council is the lawful Government of the Irish Republic. As such, it is unacceptably non-NPOV to describe Republican soldiers as "members" rather than Volunteers. They are entitled to have the correct military term used to describe them, regardless of whether this upsets traitors and criminals.
The sovereignty and unity of the Republic are inalienable and non-judicable, and the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman is owing to the sovereign Irish Republic proclaimed in 1916, endorsed by the people of All-Ireland in 1918, and effectively established by the First Dáil Éireann in January, 1919.
Articles such as the "Irish Government" article should also be altered as they are seditious, and seek to imply that an illegal assembly established by England, and not legislating for Ireland as a unit, has a right to style itself as the Government of Ireland.
Long Live the Irish Republic / An Phoblacht Abú!(unsigned comment)
Vintagekits wrote on the meidation page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-12-02_IRA_%27Volunteer%27_usage#Discussion) that:
"The term is widely used but does not imply sympathy as it is used by pro republican [ 1], [ 2], [ 3] - anti republican [ 4], [ 5], [ 6], [ 7], [ 9] and neutral sources such as [ 10], [ 11], [ 12], [ 13], [ 14], [ 15]"
May I quickly point out that link 14 (to the Mirror Newspaper) is actually quoting Gerry Adams rather than using the term "volunteer" by its own writing. But let us deal with the number of uses for "volunteer" and "member" in each of these links as follows:
Those described as "pro republican" by User:Vintagekits:
Those described as "anti republican" by User:Vintagekits:
Those described as "neutral" by User:Vintagekits:
If we were to add up all of the uses for the categories given by User:Vintagekits, we find the following results:
User:Vintagekits' argument that "volunteer" is a term also used by anti-republican and neutral sources is not supported by this evidence, even though Vintagekits defined what is "anti republican" and "neutral". This is evidence that the term "volunteer" is a term predominantly used by a "pro republican" perspective, and is used little elsewhere, with the term "member" being preferred. The neutral perspective adopts "member" much more commonly than "volunteer". Wikipedia should be neutral, and should follow this neutral trend by using the term "member" instead of "volunteer". Logica 21:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
NB I am aware that I have missed other phrases such as "volunteerS of the IRA" or "memberS of the IRA", but this was just a quicker way of doing it. Please feel free to look up these other terms.
Logica
21:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Just a couple of points:
The fact is that the term volunteer does not inherently have a bias. While the term does decend from the Irish Volunteers the use of the term does not denote agreement with the belief of the C/R/PIRA being the legitimate successor of the Irish Volunteers (and the old IRA). Its an encyclopedic term, reasonably neutral, and in wide use. I can't think of many other terms that are neutral, encyclopedic (ex. an 'IRA man'), and in wide use. A term such as 'IRA member' simply takes away from the quality of the encyclopedia, if wikipedia was written like that, it would lose considerable detail. Denoting the position of a man within an organization, is not an acceptence of that organization (albiet all members of the IRA are generally considered vols). SCVirus 06:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with the ethrnocentric neocolonialist imposition of English spellings over official Irish names. It's borderline ridiculous and clearly Anglocentric. It can only be explained due to the fact that English editors are more numerous in Wikipedia than Irish ones. It's so easy to make a redirect to the real official name... -- Sugaar 23:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Naming articles: English versus Irish
1. Where the English and Irish names are the same or very nearly the same, but the English and Irish spellings differ, use the English spelling.
- Example 1: Rosmuck, not Ros Muc.
- Example 2: Inishmore, not Inis Mór.
2. Where the English and Irish names are different, and English name remains predominant usage in English, use English name.
- Example: Wicklow, not Cill Mhantáin.
3. Where the English and Irish names are different, and the Irish name is the official name, but has not yet gained favour in English usage, use the English name.
- Example: Newbridge, County Kildare, not Droichead Nua.
Yes, it's clearly not a universal consensus. On one side there is the "this is the English language Wikipedia and so and so" (sometimes forgetting that English is today the global language and that the English Wikipedia is not just read nor edited only by people of Sussex and New Hampshire, I mean: traditional anglophones in general) and on the other is the Multiculturality aspect, validity of official names of locations (for instance you don't find directly Port aux Basques (Newfoundland) anymore but another official name that I can't recall right now).
I'd say that one thing is when talking about major entities like Dublin or London, or the Republic of Ireland (should it be Eire?) and another very different thing when talking about some ill-known town or village or county. In the first case the English name should dominate (at least as general principle), I think, but in the second there's little reason to insist on that.
Guess this issue happens in other contexts (Mumbay or Bombay? Sutee or Sati? Acadèmie Française or French Academy?) but I stumbled upon this guideline and thought it really bought the English language priority really too far by basically making impossible that even ill-known places could use their official name without breaching this guideline. -- Sugaar 15:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I see your point. However, with smaller Irish towns could it not be argued that the more predominant usage amongst Anglophones 'would' be the official title, as few outside that town, or outside of Ireland, would refer to that town? So, unusually, the rule suggested by the Manual could require use of the official name?-- Lucifer 15:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any consensus as to what nationality should be used to describe people from Northern Ireland? This comes up every so often on the C. S. Lewis article, which can go from "Irish" to "Northern Irish" to "British" (I think once it was even "English", and at one point he was simply described as an "Ulsterman"!). My feeling is that if someone from the North self-identifies as simply "Irish", then this is what they should be described as in their article. Is this already covered anywhere? I understand that it's the kind of thing that requires some sort of flexibility, but having some sort of recommendation in the MOS would be a help. I've noticed some articles just side-step the issue altogether, which leads me to believe some kind of consensus on the issue is necessary. Any thoughts? Martin 14:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Over the past few months there has been an increase in alternative Irish names at the top of Northern Ireland pages. Most placenames have an Irish version and so it makes sense that the Irish name is displayed where it exists. This is particularly true where an English name is derived from the Irish. What is rather odd is the making up of unsourced Irish versions of somebody's name or of a government department.
There was recently an issue with the Seamus Heaney page - this has now been resolved, apparently.
Don't get me wrong - some departments such as the Department of Education do use the Irish language and the website - [40] does include the English, Irish and Ulster Scots versions of the name on its front page. Others such as the Department for Employment and Learning do not and have never done so. Searching "An Roinn Fostaíochta agus Foghlaim" provides one link - namely the Wikipedia article!
The reason for the differences in the use of Irish language goes back to when there was devolved government and relates to which ministers were allocated which portfolios.
I think we should respect the views of those ministers and only mention an Irish language version of the department at the top of the page if the name is displayed in the department's logo as seen on their website.
There is a grey area where other government departments have used an Irish language name. I think it is pretty clear cut that departments such as Employment and Learning should not have an obviously made up Irish Name.
The same rules should apply to Ulster Scots where versions exist and are used prominently. What do people think?
NotMuchToSay 21:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Remembering that this is the English language wikipedia we may need to demonstrate reasons why we are adding non-English content at times (indeed these may need to be sustantial reasons). It is often neccessary to demonstrate use and usefulness and above all relevance to the article content. It is simply not enough to show that something has a non-English name or variation. Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate information. Djegan 17:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Please see Fingal and Talk:Fingal for the background to this. But in a nutshell, the entity formerly known as County Dublin no longer exists, and hasn't done so for approxmately a decade. Instead, we have Fingal, South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and Dublin City Council areas. Yet at the same time we still have, for example, the Swords, Dublin article, which is particularly ironic given that Swords is actually the 'county town' of Fingal. A search for ", Dublin" (comma space Dublin) brings back many similar results for towns, villages and suburbs that are listed as being in County Dublin rather than their new county. I had proposed a move for Swords, Dublin article to Swords, Fingal on its talk page, but Djegan rightly pointed out that such a move would probably be controversial and should be discussed here first to get consensus. So - what I'm proposing now is a 'mini-project' to identify all such articles with an incorrect "(place), Dublin" appellation and a subsequent move to their appropriate "(place), (new county)" article name. Bastun 16:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
To quote Djegan (from the Fingal talk page): "The law of the state is quite clear on the status of the county of Fingal, it is simply a "county" and nothing else, it is not an "administrative area" or "administrative county" - any suggestion that "It's an administrative area, not a true county" is patently incorrect. In particular Local Government Act 2001 (Section 10) does not assign any other term or the accompanying schedule [42].
Futhurmore the term used Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1993 (Section 9) of "administrative counties" is defunct [43]." In other words - the reality of the legal situation - admittedly if not yet everyday usage - is that there is no such thing as County Dublin. The latest OSI maps no longer show it, either, instead using the new counties. Bastun 19:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Whilst the three new counties within the former county of Dublin are becoming more commonly used (they are in the latest OSI 1:50,000 map of the city and former county) it is probabily quite premature to make a move at this point. For instance people still use County Dublin in their postal address though this is possibily more to do with tradition and reminding folks that you live outside the city and conveying the idea that you live in a country area or trendy town then correctness.
For anyone with a serious question they could access http://address.anpost.ie/ which gives postal addresses as recommended by the states postal authority, An Post, it is important to remember that this is the postal addresses recommended by An Post and can vastly vary with what people use themselves! From a postal perspective it will be interesting to see if the proposed postal code changes things. Djegan 01:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok - Djegan and Jnestorius have convinced me :-) Consider the proposal dropped by me for the forseeable future. I particularly like Jnestorius' suggestions for adding redirect links, and for giving more prominence to the new counties in article intros. Perhaps the easiest way to do it would be with a new, single, article on the three new counties which could be linked to from intros. I'll get started when I have time (real life has just intervened and will likely keep me busy for a few days). Bastun 01:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Was this ever resolved? See Ballinderry - there's so much POV on this page, I don't know where to start!
NotMuchToSay 17:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
When you are driving on the roads of Northern Ireland the road signs telling you what way a town is. Is in English NOT irish. More then 75% of people in Northern Ireland speak English, the system to paid by UK tax payers NOT irish tax payers. Newtownards 01:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Irish is not used in Northern Ireland. When you are walking the streets of any part you dont hear people talking Irish and the matter of fact the newtownards was named because it was a New Town in Ards so there is no irish about that.
You are from Ireland NOT Northern Ireland, and if your username has Derry in it, its clearly that you are irish or class yourself as irish. And Ards area is at North Down so that is why there is just one town in Northern called Newtownards. Newtownards 22:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Newtownards, in the case of roadsigns, yes - the vast majority of them are in 'English' only throughout Northern Ireland. However, the vast majority of them also have meanings which come from Gaelic or Scandanavian origins. Some of them make intresting stories, but most of them are descriptive as far as I'm aware. The same is the case in Scotland, Wales and in England. Most placenames throughout the British Isles have been 'Anglicised', which basically means they've been spelled phonetically at some point. It is a point of interest that, not only the origins of the names of places is included in the articles, but also the meanings of each - for this is the English language Wikipedia: the meanings of the original Irish, Scandanavian or Middle-English words aren't always apparent. -- Mal 00:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The following paragraph appears in the manual:
Republic of Ireland / Ireland in location introductions
A large number of Republic of Ireland towns and villages (and other types of articles too) state that they are in Ireland, not Republic of Ireland in the opening paragraph. This is misleading as it creates the impression that Ireland is one state. A compromise has been proposed at WP:IWNB that the form "is a town on the coast of [[County Cork]], [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]" should be used. This is already widely used and will allow it to appear as Ireland whilst linking to Republic of, as per Follow_local_conventions.
The statement at the heart of this nonsense "This is misleading as it creates the impression that Ireland is one state" is rubbish. The article on Ireland continues to be called "RoI" (which is NOT the name of the state) and this is 'justified' by supporters who claim that calling the article by a different name to the entity it refers to does not imply calling the country by the name of the article.
Yet this "style manual" would have us referring to, say, Dublin as being in, not IRELAND, but in a place called after the title of a Wiki article!! Let the discussion commence; if there are no reasioned and sustainable objections I'll delete that section in 24 hours. ( Sarah777 14:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
Nothing 'arbitrary' about my reasons for deletion. I have explained that I am not prepared to state that my home town is being part of a country that bears the name of a Wiki article rather than the name of my country. The compromise is not workable, I certainly won't be working it - so if 'discussion' isn't agreement then how do we get some change? ( Sarah777 15:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
Hmmmm. The usual heavies out to crush 'lil ole me!! OK. I withdraw. Again. I am down but not out; like Slattery's Mounted Foot I flee to fight another day. Too busy trying to devise a template for use on the National secondary roads articles to engage fully - did you know the N80 road is 140km long? ( Sarah777 17:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
Just following the style manual. And I DON'T agree that bad decisions must remain forever. How do I change it? Should I be trying to organise a ballot? (
Sarah777
19:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
And I suggest the reason you get repeated arguments is that new editors like myself keep popping up and are astonished and outraged at the set of rules for naming our own country some earlier Irish Wikipedians have acquiesced to. This will not end, in fact it could get much, much worse until a more balanced group of editorial opinion is assembled. I have withdrawn my call for deletion as I said; I can compromise. Now to APPLY the instructions implicit in the style manual. ( Sarah777 19:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
What do you mean by "difficult to assume good faith"? I have made my objections explicit, open and have rarely actually changed an article despite not being in any way impressed by the 'consensus'. I spend as much time here combating mindless vandalism as most others. And certainly at least one of the recently 'retired' editors was insufferably arrogant, rude and abusive (in my OPINION). But arising from the Ireland/RoI issue I have viewed a large number of other such disputes involving "nationalist" type issues; example - the use of 'volunteer' in IRA articles (to describe members of paramilitaries) appeared to draw many of the same people who refused to budge on the RoI issue to the "anti-Republican" side of the argument. Ditto Derry/L'Derry. So I am seeing possibly a concerted pov being imposed by certain folk here. I am almost afraid to read the numerous articles on Irish history and politics because I feel I'd spend my whole time fighting pov - whereas all I really want to do is write, organise and categorise articles about the villages, roads, hills, lakes and rivers of IRELAND. But I will not be a doormat either. Regards ( Sarah777 23:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC))
"As far as I remember, "Republic of Ireland" is what the constitution of that country states should be used in the case of ambiguity."
It says no such thing. Hence this whole debate. ( Sarah777 01:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
Furthermore, Mr Bell above says "The MOS here is about the towns and villages IN the Republic of Ireland." No it's not!!!! It is the MOS for Ireland-related articles - it says so on the tin!! Now can you see why I have problems with the reasoning behind the irregular naming conventions being dictated by a small group of editors here? FACTS appear to be irrelevant to the current controllers.
(I note a double revert of my CORRECT reference to RoI in the NI article, by Sony and then Bastun; - this is your idea of consensus?) ( Sarah777 02:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
Sarah777 asked on my talk page why I reverted her edit on the NI article "without any discussion or consultation". I should indeed have put in an edit summary, so apologies for that. My answer was: "Hi Sarah. Plain and simple, clarity. The previous version was The remainder of the island of Ireland is governed as a sovereign state, Ireland, also described as the Republic of Ireland. I thought it was a clumsy construction at best and confusing as hell for someone not familiar with the island. The replacement is clearer and accurate." Bastun 10:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Sarah777, like the comments on my talk page by you, more troll activity. Its quite clear at this stage that you will push your agenda irrespective of what anyone else thinks. Note to serious editors: get out while you can, is wikipedia really worth this type of nonsense? Djegan 10:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I note that Ben Bell added "RoI" reference to the Delgany article in what, in my OPINION is a hostile gesture in the circumstances of this debate. Furthermore, Ben, we have discussed the Constitution of IRELAND endlessly here and I finally (after others had debated the issue for over a year) nailed the FACT that the one and only NAME of the state is IRELAND.
As for the category thing, I cut and pasted the links and categories from earlier articles to save time and only noticed the error the other day. Most of my articles rigorously avoid any reference to the RoI. Like the Delgany one.
Re the NI article: "I thought it was a clumsy construction at best and confusing as hell for someone not familiar with the island." That, in my opinion is totally OTT;it MIGHT be slightly less succinct but it is more accurate and doesn't carry the embedded pov. Anyway I have repaired the damage, again.(
Sarah777
21:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
I see that Mr Bell is going down the list of my articles and provocatively adding RoI references to them. Is this what Wiki consensus is all about? And Mr Egan (allegedly retired) has referred to an explanation I requested for a poor edit he made as trolling. I have also had an edit called 'vandalism' and I have been called an 'extremist' by this group of "no pov!!!" editors. I become ever more convinced of the need to recruit some new moderate editors to restore some balance and achieve some compromise in relation to these issues. ( Sarah777 22:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
Ben, in most articles I avoided naming the country to avoid controversy. I REFUSE to use RoI as the name of this country, however I guess if you feel you gotta clean up my errors you gotta do what you gotta do! At least you're polite. Unlike some. (
Sarah777
22:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC))
If people feel that they must REFUSE to follow wikipedia consensus, policies, etc then they should leave, point blank. Because this is no place for trolling, which is the fundemental tone of Sarah777. Calm down. Its not the end of the world. (sarcastically). In wikipedia the community comes first not what one person insists on (and it does not help your case when said editor makes snipes at the Irish wikipedia community which is documented above). Wikipedia is not a dictatorship. Dont anyone fire back a comment about assuming good faith because that day is long gone, just look at the unwarranted torrent on my talk page. Trolling. Djegan 23:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Fundementally people we brought this problem onto ourselves. A failed compromise was reached at Republic of Ireland and now seamingly one editor is going to implement that as their policy and REFUSE anything else. This is a form of failed fundementalism. Whatever the name of the Irish state, adopted in this encyclopedia is, when referring to said state then that adopted term should be used consistantly throughout. This does not mean that we would deliberately misinform on the name of an document or office, for instance, Constitution of Ireland or President of Ireland, or that we could not point out that the name of that state is "Ireland". But it does mean that the adopted name is used firstly and most prominantly when referring to the state. Anything else is just illogical and opens the door for trolls and pov-pushers, or whatever this weeks topical term is. Djegan 00:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello DJ, Your increasingly abusive attacks on me are becoming tedious. Must you always talk in such OTT terms? "just look at the unwarranted torrent on my talk page." Unwarrented torrent? !!!! In the context of the abusive remarks that you addressed to me, really!
Here is the 'unwarrented torrent': Kindly do NOT revert my corrections without any consultation. You do not own this article, as you appear to believe. RoI is ONE of TWO "Official descriptions". One is in the Act you cited; the other is in the Constitution.
Yep folks - that's it! Taramoon is absolutely correct; sometimes pov is so embedded that the owners simply can't see it. ( Sarah777 00:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC))
Hi all! Wikipedia uses Londonderry for the county and Derry for the city; this is quite an arbitrary naming convention not used anywhere else. I propose that, like everywhere else, Wikipedia employs the name Londonderry for articles pertaining to unionists and unionism and Derry for articles pertaining to nationalists and nationalism. Cheers gaillimh Conas tá tú? 01:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Irish is not an Offical Language of the United Kindom (which includes Northern Ireland) or the EU. If you wish to put Irish in all Northern Ireland Articles i suggest that you also include other lanuages used in the UK Mainland. Wikipedia wants to enforce Irish onto Northern Ireland topics then Other languages used in the UK should be included in their articles too. It is only fair and correct to do so as it follows the same lines are you focus northern ireland topics to be writing to. Craig7006 16:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Craig, you've stated twice that Irish isn't an official language of the EU - you're incorrect. See Irish language. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 19:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Craig, with regard to place names in Northern Ireland, it is my understanding that Irish-language places names, where they exist, for places in Northern Ireland are valid under Northern Irish law. I'll look this up further but for the time being see the Department for Regional Development Code Of Courtesy For Irish:
-- sony-youth pléigh 21:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Re: "A large number of Republic of Ireland towns and villages (and other types of articles too) state that they are in Ireland, not Republic of Ireland in the opening paragraph. This is misleading as it creates the impression that Ireland is one state. A compromise has been proposed at WP:IWNB that the form "is a town on the coast of County Cork, Ireland" should be used. This is already widely used and will allow it to appear as Ireland whilst linking to Republic of, as per Follow local conventions."
To quote Sarah777, this is nonsense, rubbish and tripe. Using the word Ireland gives the impression it is one state? How, exactly? The power of republican positive thinking? This is absolute bilge, and seems to be the work of Ben W Bell, acting unilaterally. Despite being told of an "agreement" and a "compromise", I found neither. Not here, not at WP:IWNB.
Lapsed Pacifist 21:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the "conversation". I was originally told of an "agreement" and a "compromise", but there's no sign of those. And if we write the name of the state for places south and west of a line running through Ulster, why do we use a regional name for places north and east of it, rather than the name of the state which currently has jurisdiction over that area?
Lapsed Pacifist 10:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The debate on the guidelines for what to call the Twenty-six County Area doesn't concern me. Rather it's that the use of the state rather than the country for locations is being insisted upon. Most people who live in the TSCA don't identify as "Republic of Irish". Their country is Ireland, and they're not referring to just part of it, whatever a particular state's official title. No-one has been able to explain to me why the state's name isn't being used for locations in the Six Counties. If the regional name gets preferment there, why not regional names for the rest of the country?
Lapsed Pacifist 13:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
It may be helpful to add that when the English spoken in Ireland differs from other varieties of English, it should be followed in Irish articles; this is already in MOS itself, as national varieties of English, but it may tend to turn down the heat here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Browsed to the Lurgan article and noted that it had the UK places infobox. I thought that it should have been the Ireland places infobox? There could be more, have't checked. -- Bill Reid | Talk 09:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed recently that there is an increase again in the number of articles having an Irish translation provided at the beginning of the article, mainly the NI airport related articles. Now, correct me if I'm wrong by all means, I was under the impression that the Irish version was if there was an official Irish name it was known by, or an original Irish name that the name was Angliciinsed from. I was under the impression that it wasn't simply to be used as a means of translating the name into Irish. Wikipedia is not an English/Irish dictionary. So can we have some clarification on this as it is causing some minor edit wars on some of the airport articles (and I'm sure elsewhere). Should an Irish translation be provided if that is all it is, a back translation, or should it only be used if there is an official Irish name used for the location (in these cases an airport) or if it was Anglicised from an Irish name or word. I personally don't believe it is there simply to provide a translation, but others do think otherwise and the MOS isn't clear. The example I talk about at the minute is Newtownards Airport. Now this airport doesn't have any Irish translations on its signage or any official paperwork associated with it, and the Irish put on the page is simply someone translating it into Irish. Ben W Bell talk 11:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sony-youth, rather than the slightest suggestion that what I have said has any merit, you decide instead to dismiss me as a crack. If you think I am "losing the plot" then show where. Comment on content, not on the contributor, WP:NPA.
Bascially what you are proposing is a convoluted process of what already happens, and I think thats a bad basis for proposing anything - rules on rules. Its anything but a manual of style, its a guideline come policy (content and rationale). As things are material gets included through consensus and that material is subject to verification on request. Their was neither consensus nor verification for Newtownards Airport.
I know what a "blue-chip publishing house" is but nothing is WP:VERIFY states that sources must be so and theirfore we should not limit ourselves in that manner. Its as simple as that, no need for a whole section procrastinating how we should decide if Irish is included because its just recodifing existing guidelines and policies. I know about WP:NOR and stand over it, but QUB was a different matter. University College Cork uses the term in its history section [46] - would that pass WP:NOR and WP:VERIFY - yes (I am sure their is more citations available, I believe some where provided, but their was no accusation at the time that the QUB Irish name was "made up"). Are we the corporate identity police of any third party - no. If a term or fact is known in wider society than that maybe a basis for inclusion if it passes WP:VERIFY, and other guidelines and policies. We don't include things just because a third party says its so, and don't exclude it just because they don't say its so. Sorry, this isn't kindergarten or the press office of whatever place, organisation, or event.
The manual of style should be used to determine layout, not content, its not a quasi-official rewrite of official policies and guidelines for Irish language in articles. Djegan 19:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
While browsing I came across this, where someone's birthplace is listed as " Cork, County Cork, UK". I decided to change it to Ireland instead of the UK, and tried using [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|Ireland]] (which I've seen before) as a possible compromise as the editor has been edit warring over that and contributes to plenty of Northern Ireland related articles (surprise, surprise!). Only that wasn't good enough, so they linked Ireland directly and added on UK afterwards. So my questions are these:
Input welcome. One Night In Hackney 303 03:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Irish Wikipedians - (And yes I include User:Rockpocket !!) - Please see this article and recent edit history.
This is the English wiki and thus the names uses should be those used most commonly in the English language (i.e. not neccessarily English), thats an often repeated guideline. And this is not the press office of the Irish Government. Their is a wiki at ga.wikipedia.org for those who wish to use Irish. Djegan 22:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)