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Hey, everyone. I still object to the Variations heading, a heading that LT910001 very recently added to the anatomy layout. I take it that since I was the only one to object to it, LT910001 reasoned that there is WP:Consensus to add it. The initial comment I made in the Guidelines mark 2 section shows why I object to the heading; I stated, "More than one aspect of an organ can have variations, and it will likely be best to discuss those variations in the appropriate sections instead of trying to lump them all in one section. So I don't see the Variations listing as needed." In my "03:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)" post, I suggested that LT910001 make it clearer that the Variations listing is optional by adding "as appropriate," but LT910001 added "if information exists" instead, which doesn't satisfy my objection, because, like I stated, "Of course information regarding variations is very likely to exist." I started a new talk page section about this here since LT910001 considers the previous extensive discussions closed and suggested that any new discussion about the anatomy layout be addressed in a new, separate section. Here is the previous discussion on this matter, taken from the Guidelines mark 2 and Guidelines mark 4 sections above:
Any thoughts on the Variations listing? I view it as complicated. More than one aspect of an organ can have variations, and it will likely be best to discuss those variations in the appropriate sections instead of trying to lump them all in one section. So I don't see the Variations listing as needed. Flyer22 ( talk) 07:11, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- Concerning variations this isn't either relevant for all articles, but you can go as far as to say that pretty much each and every part of an organ/structure can vary. Variation should include the most common variations, which are most of the time variations of large sections of the organ, or the entire organ. Having a subdivision is a very easy way to find info on variations that is hard to find otherwise. Normally anatomy text-books, atlases etc. have individual sections on variations, and I believe Wikipedia should as well. The problem is not just one for Wikipedia, but its very hard to define many variations at all. For example the two main articles: Pectoralis major, Rectus abdominis & the variation Sternalis, looking in the literature it leaves a bit to discuss. CFCF ( talk) 10:48, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- Agree. One of the more frustrating things I had found initially when using Wikipedia is that it had no information on variation, which is one of the most interesting aspects of Anatomy. Almost every anatomical item is sure to have a degree of variation, and it's important to record it. -- LT910001 ( talk) 13:52, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- CFCF and LT910001, what we have stated on this matter is exactly why we should not be suggesting in our layout that an editor should create a Variations section. It's too complicated, because so many aspects can have variations and those are arguably better covered in the sections about those parts if a need is seen to cover them. Who is to say what are the most important variations that should be covered? We don't need all the variations packed into one section. And having more than one section titled Variations wouldn't be helpful, especially since editing that will automatically take the editor to the first section with the identical heading after pressing "Save page." Wikipedia is not supposed to mimic an anatomy book; it's supposed to summarize the anatomy information in a WP:Summary style manner. If we are to keep "Variations" in the layout, it should be stressed in the layout as an optional matter. Flyer22 ( talk) 14:22, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- If we are to treat Wikipedia as a serious resources for anatomy, we must at least attempt to reflect the field itself. Almost any anatomy resource consulted, to which I refer you to any textbook or journal article, covers the following four areas: structure, function, variation, and history. To not cover one of these areas is deliberately ignoring an important area of the field. I fail to see how discussing variation is any more "complicated" than, for example, selectively describing what complications may ensue from a disease. I do however agree with your point that this section should be optional, as there may indeed not be sufficient information available on many structures for this section to occur. -- LT910001 ( talk) 16:24, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- We (referring to our use of WP:MEDMOS) don't selectively describe what complications may ensue from a disease, not generally anyway; we describe, or at least mention, all of the diseases and their complications. "Generally" comes in with regard to the fact that we are not likely to mention complications that are not significant. And there usually are not too many complications to name. Comparing the "complications from a disease" matter and the vague, ever-possible variations matter is like comparing apples and oranges. I am not saying that we should not cover variations (I clearly stated that variations should be covered in the appropriate sections); I am saying that there is no need for a section titled Variations. And I don't know what else to state to explain my feelings on that matter. However, thanks for at least compromising on that. Flyer22 ( talk) 17:12, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- With regard to this fourth proposal, "apparent consensus" should also be tagged to the Structure section (as we know, that section is implemented and has been for a long time). And on that note, I don't see why we need a "Substructures" listing; substructure material should be taken care of in the Structure section, and we shouldn't imply that a "Substructures" heading is ideal. I will never see the need for the headings that I have basically categorized as redundant above. My objections to your proposals still stand. However, I can be better onboard with your proposals if you change the following two things: "where these are documented" to "as appropriate" for the Variations listing. and remove "for minor anatomical structures." from the Development listing. As noted above, having a Variations section is not necessary because that material is likely better covered in the section about whatever aspect of the organ that is being discussed. And saying "where these are documented" makes it sound like there should be more than one section titled Variations. As for the Development section, as discussed above, making that material a subsection of the Structure section is not only a matter for minor anatomical structures; it's very valid to have the Development section be a subsection of the Structure section in a variety of cases; in fact, I can't think of a case where it's not valid. Even if there is one, it is few and far between. Flyer22 ( talk) 03:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- (1) Marked as apparent consensus. (2) Thanks for your comment on substructures; this is intended as a note to explain that substructures (such as each of the ossicles, or components of a system) should be covered as subsections of the structure section, and I have changed the wording accordingly. (3) As for development, I would like to keep the 'for minor anatomical structures' note, as there is a large divide between Anatomical articles which receive the most views and edits, yet are the minority of articles, and the large amount of poorly-edited Anatomical articles which constitute the majority of the Anatomical molass. The embryological development of larger structures can be quite extensive, and it may be better to have it as a separate section in larger articles. (4) Thanks for your comment on variations, that is indeed ambiguous, and I have changed the wording. Variations should be noted, however there may not actually be any information in literature about them recorded. -- LT910001 ( talk) 01:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- While I appreciate you removing the Substructures listing and adding "if information exists" in place of "where these are documented" for the Variations listing, my objections still stand with regard to the Variations listing and the other above matters that I have objected to. The word choice "if information exists" is hardly any better/different. Of course information regarding variations is very likely to exist. And I cannot at all agree to retaining "for minor anatomical structures" with regard to the Development listing; I've already addressed why above, so to state more on that matter would be redundant. However, I will state this: Making the development material a subsection of the Structure section has nothing to do with how great or poor the article is; it has to do with, like I stated, it making a lot of sense, in a variety of cases, to present the material that way. Your insistence that we indicate to our editors that the Development section, if it is to be a subsection, should only be a subsection of the Structure section "for minor anatomical structures" does not make sense to me. Nor will I ever. Adding "especially" so that it reads "especially for minor anatomical structures" would be an improvement and not so narrow-sounding. But either way, WP:MEDMOS at least makes it clear that the format guidelines are suggestions and that editors do not have to format articles exactly the way that WP:MEDMOS does (besides that other stuff it states about imposing such formats on articles). Flyer22 ( talk) 02:08, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Comments from people other than us on this matter would be appreciated. Flyer22 ( talk) 00:36, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm starting to rewrite and expand aspergillosis as it is in dire need of it! However, this is a disease entity compromising of various subtypes. The only thing these have in common is their causative agent; the mechanisms, diagnoses, treatments and outcomes for the various subtypes are all radically different. How do I best arrange this article? Is it worth encompassing all of the subtypes within the same article, or merely using it as a summative page for the different entities? How do I best make it comply with MEDMOS?
Thanks for the help! --— Cyclonenim | Chat 15:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
There's a dispute at DRN about whether commonly used but non-evidence-based treatments should be included under ==Treatment== or cordoned off in another section, like ==Society and culture==. IMO the guideline's statement of "any type of currently used treatment" is clear enough, but I think we could reduce these disputes by specifically naming alternative medicine, and/or by adding a note that says "regardless of the level of evidence for the treatment's effectiveness".
To give an example, common self-care treatments for Hiccups, like drinking a glass of water, were apparently moved to ==Society and culture== a while ago, even though the guideline specifically names self-care as something to include under ==Treatment==.
What do you think? How would you reduce these disputes? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:21, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
At the moment, I agree that we should lean towards including separate sections inside of the society & culture section, to demarcate what is and what is not a currently-accepted evidence-based treatment, eg society and culture#Traditional X medicine. -- LT910001 ( talk) 02:05, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi everyone, according to this guide we should name articles as per the ICD-10 or DSM-5 and as the latter only applies to mental/behavioural illnesses the ICD-10 is the preferred for physical illnesses. Consequently I would like to bring your attention to the fact that the following articles are not named accordingly (in brackets is the applicable section of the ICD-10):
and its subtypes (like Acute lymphoblastic leukemia, acute myeloid leukemia, chronic lymphocytic leukemia and chronic myelogenous leukemia)
and its subtypes
and the list goes on. Now I think we need to reach a consensus otherwise we're contradicting ourselves by saying physical illnesses should be named as per the ICD-10 and then naming these differently. Fuse809 ( talk) 11:31, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
EDIT: I am NOT talking about American vs. British English! I know the rules with regard to these changes I am talking about ICD-10 as it is where this manual of style does not line up with what's actually occurring in practice!
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What I'm talking about here isn't simply changing from American to British English, I'm talking about the ICD-10 as we're supposed to be following it. I know about these rules regarding American to British English but what I'm talking about is different, are we keeping to the ICD-10 or are we making it up as we go along? Fuse809 ( talk) 15:46, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
That's not entirely true; essential thrombocytosis should be called essential thrombocythaemia according to the ICD-10. Fuse809 ( talk) 20:47, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Consequently I'm moving this page to make it in accordance with the ICD-10. Fuse809 ( talk) 21:11, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi, the order of drug articles suggested by this guide aren't in agreement with WP:PHARMMOS and its recommended article order. I hence suggest that we change this article, accordingly. I would just do it myself, but as I doubt I'm the first person that's realised this inconsistency I thought I should start a discussion first. Fuse809 ( talk) 07:17, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
PHARMMOS | MEDMOS |
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I think that's it. Any other differences? Anyone else have any opinions on what to do?
If it were entirely up to me, I might add a section on manufacturing process and pull legal approvals (for regulated pharmaceuticals) out into a separate section. I might do the same with economic information. But perhaps others would not agree. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 01:51, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I have boldly made this change [1]. IMO "medical uses" means what is done and what is supported by the evidence. Indications on the other hand is what has the FDA rubber stamped which is not always done and not always evidence based. Also a local / US centric term which we as a global encyclopedia should avoid. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:22, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
In short, we need a MOS guide (basically a supplement to this section MOS:ABBR#Miscellanea) for common medical terms (first occurrence rule, wikilink rule, sub/super-script rule (where relevant), etc). E.g. on the use of s.c., i.p., and i.v. administration routes or LD50 vs ld50 vs m.l.d.. Some terms should also be consistently abbreviated, as m.l.d. is sometimes used for median or minimum lethal dose which also may abbreviated as LD50 or LDmin respectively.
As far as I can tell, we have no guidance on the use of these terms in the wiki MOS or our MOS supplement; many medical substance articles use abbreviated terms like these and it appears that there's a lot of heterogeneity in the use of these terms as well. I'm not making a formal proposal on this - have too much other stuff on my wiki to-do list at the moment. Hoping someone else can hop on this, assuming this isn't already covered elsewhere in the MOS. Seppi333 ( Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 03:45, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
It seems to me that Drugs pages from PubMed Health (a site developed by Hida Bastian, alias Hildabast, among others, dedicated to reliable information regarding clinical effectiveness) may provide external links that could be genuinely helpful to our readers. Worth of inclusion in this guideline? 86.169.210.196 ( talk) 17:42, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
I have added a "usage" section to medication articles to match the "epidemiology" section we have in disease related articles [4] Thoughts? Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Introduction
I have tried to edit this style guide to reflect the fact that when it comes to amphetamine-related articles we generally keep to the USAN instead of the INN, but the edit was reverted by CFCF. I am personally in favour of changing the name of amphetamine articles to the corresponding INN names, but I realize that due problems of recognizability most Wikipedians I have come across favour the USAN (e.g. Seppi333 and Jmh649). Which is fine, they're entitled to their opinion, as I am entitled to mine, but I think we need to reach a consensus and finally put all this pedantic arguing (yes, mostly on my part, not trying to point the finger of blame at anyone else) to bed.
My argument for the move to INN titles for these articles
The INN is something I would favour based on the grounds of lisdexamfetamine's naming and the fact that virtually every medical association or organization worldwide has adopted this naming which perfectly reflects the INN for dextroamphetamine, dexamfetamine. Plus the British Approved Names for the amphetamines tends to conform better with the INN, hence given enough time for these naming conventions to sink in it may just become a regional preference as to which naming convention is preferred, that is, if you live in the U.K. dexamfetamine and metamfetamine may become common use, whereas if you live in the U.S. dextroamphetamine and methamphetamine may still be commonplace. It is also nice to have a "one glove fits all" for the naming of drug articles, in my opinion, at least.
The arguments against such a move I am aware of
Recognizability and chemical correctness are the major ones I've seen. Chemical correctness refers to the phenyl (which is used by chemists) vs. fenyl (which is the spelling that is implied by the INN). But I would just like to add that if we accept this argument and do not criticize it we would have to rename the fenfluramine article as phenfluramine. As for recognizability well we can have redirects (which would be in place as soon as any of these articles are moved, by default) in case people search for the more conventional names so it is unlikely anyone will get lost, especially if we mention in the lead the alternate spellings. It is sort of like the variations of English, so long as we mention the alternate spellings, and create redirect pages at the alternate spelling or terminology it is unlikely that readers and/or editors will get lost.
Bottom line
All I am here to propose is that we reach a consensus, here and now, and either vote in favour of naming all articles based on the INN, or in favour of making occasional exceptions to this general rule for amphetamine-related articles like methamphetamine, dextroamphetamine, amphetamine, levoamphetamine, etc. If I am ranting and raving about a consensus that has already been reached please do direct me to this consensus so I may henceforth remain silent, as I am willing to accept the consensus of Wikipedia's editors. Thank you for everyone's time it is much appreciated.
By the way, I believe the standard is to leave your remarks below my comment, instead of editing my comment, I hope so as I think we all deserve to give our own opinions and hear each other's opinions, regardless of how ridiculous some of us may find them so that we can reach a unanimous consensus. Brenton ( contribs · email · talk · uploads) 21:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I think it could be helpful to specify that this section is for prevention strategies that are actually in use, rather than potential strategies (which could go under Research directions). 86.157.144.73 ( talk) 12:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I have a question I would like to open to the community here about something I've noticed on alternative medicine pages. I have noticed several pages such as herbalism, ayurvedic, homeopathy, naturopathy, and applied kinesiology have a certain order but others such as acupuncture and chiropractic (more the former than the latter article) serve as examples of contrast and do not put the history section in the beginning (though the chiropractic article does have conceptual basis in the beginning and it could be argued that is at least somewhat related to the history section). So, is there a page that guides us on this or a policy about how to order sections in alternative medicine (system) articles? If so, can someone direct me to this page please?. If not, perhaps we should discuss this issue since there seems to be a lack of uniformity in the articles. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 06:45, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Not sure if there would be an advantage to uniformity. The altmed space is diverse enough that different topics may require different ordering. Generally, a chronological basis for ordering gives a natural reading order - so if there is a "History" section having it first would be reasonable. One thing to be alert to is a propensity from some POV-pushers to try and gather the "negative" material in one section and then push it down the article. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 07:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I suggest the flow of such articles to be like this : cause & transmission --> symptoms & signs --> pathophysiology --> diagnosis --> treatment/management --> prognosis --> prevention --> epidemiology --> history. This is supposed to be also the "flow" of getting and tackling a disease, isn't it? Biomedicinal ( talk) 04:28, 13 August 2014
Can we specify the section ordering in addictive drug articles for sections on substance dependence and/or addiction (this would also affect the current placement of withdrawal) in our MOS for standardization? I'm bringing this up since the section ordering came up in my FA nomination for amphetamine, which has withdrawal placed under overdose.
We currently indicate placing
withdrawal under adverse effects; this concept, in a clinical context (per the DSM), is closely related to
substance dependence (i.e., more or less, "drug addiction") since it is always paired with
physical dependence and/or
psychological dependence. Ideally, I think these topics should either be together in a new level 2 section titled "Addiction" or "Substance dependence" (these two terms are apt/appropriate section headers for any subsections on tolerance, withdrawal, sensitization, physical dependence, and psychological dependence) or be placed as a subsection of either "Overdose" or "Adverse effects" – the prevailing position in current medical reviews would then be used to determine which of the two headers is more appropriate for addiction-related subsections in a given drug article. I think overdose would be a more apt section heading than adverse effects for these, primarily because I'm not aware of any addictive pharmaceuticals which have the capacity to induce a true addiction (i.e., ruinously compulsive drug use) when taken as indicated (i.e., at therapeutic doses), except in rare cases/unusual circumstances.
This isn't a particularly urgent proposal, but I think it is necessary to develop the layout for these sections in our articles on addictive drugs. I'd also like to have amphetamine's layout agree with the MOS. Seppi333 ( Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 22:59, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
The lead to MEDRS is written carefully to broadly cover health-related content. I wonder, why is this guideline narrowly focused on "medical" articles? Shall we broaden it? Jytdog ( talk) 10:19, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm trying to learn about the ways people prefer to see medical content presented, and have a question about this example from the guideline:
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)I know that people like these figures, but I'm wondering what the benefit is of providing them all in one citation, when in the above example the URL and DOI lead to http://bioinformatics.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/20/2339. And the PMC shows that it's available via PubMed, so is there a benefit of adding the PMID alongside the other identifiers? Any info would be much appreciated. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:17, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
About once a year or so, someone changes some sex-specific articles to refer to "people" rather than "males" or "men". This has happened, for example, at Pregnancy, which is a condition that only affects biological females (among humans). It also happens (perhaps more often) at articles that are more complicated on the sex and gender front, such as articles about conditions that disproportionately affect intersex people.
In broad overview, the relevant cases are:
The last two are the easy ones: You should avoid talking about "males" or "men" when the information applies to everyone equally. You should be especially careful about gendered language when writing about intersex and transgender issues.
The first is the complicated case, and the one that I'd like to get people's opinions on.
If you write, "X% of women and Y% of men died of heart attacks last year", then people who don't identify with the gender binary will feel excluded, and people whose biological sex does not match their gender identity may not know which statistic applies to themselves. This will include some intersexed people, but not all of them.
If you write "X% of females and Y% of males died of heart attacks last year", then people may complain that the text is harder (in readability terms, the less-familiar word males is a slightly 'harder' word than men). Lay- and patient-oriented websites tend to use words like women more often than females. It may also seem less warm and human(e), similar to calling people "patients" or "cases" rather than "people". Because "male" applies from (before) birth, writing about males will sometimes be interpreted as meaning both men and boys, even if the context is only relevant to adult (or even aged) males. This will include transgendered people, but it will still exclude intersexed people.
If you write "Z% of people died of heart attacks last year", then you lose the sex-specific information. In other cases, you may not be able to convert: If the source says that "Y% of women became pregnant last year", you cannot convert that into "Z% of people" (which includes the entire population of the world) or re-phrase it as "Y% of females" (which implies all ages of females, including infants), because your answer will be wrong and you will violate WP:NOR.
I think we can take it as read that NOR-violating transformations are unacceptable. However, that leaves us a lot of room. Here are some questions that I'd like you to think about:
I'm interested in hearing opinions. As far as I'm concerned, the more opinions, the better. WP:There is no deadline for figuring out what ideas we have on this question. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 00:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for dropping a note @ WPANATOMY, Flyer22. From my perspective, there are a few things that I'd take into account:
Note: We have another case here regarding the Vaginismus article; it concerns an edit by Sourlacte ( talk · contribs). Flyer22 ( talk) 03:59, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Regarding Sourlacte's changes, some of them are reasonable (and I tweaked this bit), but it's not reasonable to remove every instance of "woman" from the article. Same goes for stating "female" in this case. Flyer22 ( talk) 04:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
If "some of them are reasonable" then all of them are. Vaginismus could be suffered by women as much as by non-transitioned trans men, transitioned trans men and intersex people. It's therefore innacurate to be sex-specific when it's merely about the vaginal opening, not, say, the whole biological female reproductive system. I would still refrain from total sex-specificity since we can simply refer to organs or systems by themselves, but it's even more reasonable in this case. And no, you don't just rely on "they know". Dysphoria is a delicate thing, it's not 42% of us suiciding out of nothing. I'm not saying we should hold responsibility on this, but merely that if trans people are a reality, then you simply adjust to that, and avoid being innacurate when talking about sex-related information: we're not covering the people, we're covering the body. I'm editing it again. Sourlacte ( talk) 15:52, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
~~~~
. I signed your post for you above.
Flyer22 (
talk)
16:21, 31 October 2014 (UTC)I'm looking at the list for drugs and devices, and I am thinking that it was written for drugs (chemicals) and not necessarily for things. For devices, it might make more sense to start off with what the thing is. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:51, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
For disease articles, could ==Types== be a useful alternative to ==Classification==?
"Types" might be an appropriate and more reader-friendly option, imo, for selected content that is intended for lay readers (per
WP:AUDIENCE).
109.157.83.50 (
talk)
16:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The page seems to be growing unnecessarily. Per the comment above that all bolded words are now suggestions, we also have:
So, why do we need four possible choices, and how is the new-to-Wikipedia editor to sort which to use? What was wrong with one, perhaps two, terms? Really, this all seems to be fiddling for the sake of fiddling, and I'm not yet convinced clarity has been added. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:58, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Two questions:
Thoughts? Jytdog ( talk) 16:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
thanks for putting that into the body - I was going to do that, today. I'm not wikilawyering LEAD and i am speaking to its heart. And while IAR is great, you and I both know that we need guidelines and you yourself cite them all the time in making changes and reverting others. To the point... I don't get the focus on putting pregnancy info in the lead - that is the bigger issue. Since you are so prolific James, and since seems to have become part of your editing style, it seems to be something that we should all discuss with regard to MEDMOS. It is really not clear to me whether pregnancy info always belongs there. Maybe we'll all decide it belongs there. Maybe not. Jytdog ( talk) 14:34, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
We had a meeting at Cancer Research UK at which we discussed simplifying some of our terms. We should discuss them one by one and then I guess have a support oppose to determine if we should move in this direction. The plan is to have a bot make the changes that have consensus. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Mechanism IMO is a similar term. Both are currently acceptable. I propose we use mechanism consistently. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Outcomes is simpler and more understandable. They are similar enough that I would support the change. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Outcomes ? Really? With "prognosis" completely removed, not even an alternate. So, how does that work for neuropsych conditions? It sounds like wording put through by editors mostly dealing with "diseases" (that have more of a defined beginning and end) than those dealing with "conditions", eg neuropsych conditions, that don't necessarily have an "outcome" ... one just lives with them. As I was absent when this silliness went through, I suggest we add back Prognosis, alongside this new Outcomes. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 10:47, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Not sure if there is a simpler term we can use. Statistics maybe but it is not that similar. Can others think of suggestion? Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Populations affected? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk · contribs · email) 17:56, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
My immediate thought would be to use Those affected. -- CFCF 🍌 ( email) 07:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
As to whether these suggestions were meant to be just that, see the section headings above on this page, where the discussions were for one term instead of another. There may be a problem with my reading comprehension, but to me, that means replacing one with another, as in, eliminating one. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Earlier this year the heading "indications" was changed to uses. This followed a discussion in 2011. A "use" may not be indicated; it could just be optional, so the meaning was changed a bit here.
Should "contraindications" likewise be changed to be the opposite of "uses"? A contraindication is a strong deterrent, but sometimes there is discouragement which is not a contraindication. For example, sometimes doctors and mothers somehow decide to have caesarean section surgery when it is not medically indicated, and various authorities say that this ought not happen and people should not be choosing to have surgeries without a medical indication. Similarly, there are other treatments which are discouraged but not contraindicated. Wikipedia was criticized for not giving information about FDA drug safety alerts, which again frequently are not contraindications but may be reasons to avoid using something. Is it the intent of this heading to usage warnings which are not contraindications?
Does this heading need to exist at all, or should it just be part of uses? There is always a uses section in articles. The contraindications section may or may not appear.
Other names could be "When to not use", "Uses to avoid", "Reasons to avoid", "Usage warnings", or just "Warnings". Note that for drugs we already have an "adverse effects" section and for procedures a "risks and complications" section in addition to the contraindications section of each of those.
I like "Warnings". Does that fit here? Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
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Hey, everyone. I still object to the Variations heading, a heading that LT910001 very recently added to the anatomy layout. I take it that since I was the only one to object to it, LT910001 reasoned that there is WP:Consensus to add it. The initial comment I made in the Guidelines mark 2 section shows why I object to the heading; I stated, "More than one aspect of an organ can have variations, and it will likely be best to discuss those variations in the appropriate sections instead of trying to lump them all in one section. So I don't see the Variations listing as needed." In my "03:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)" post, I suggested that LT910001 make it clearer that the Variations listing is optional by adding "as appropriate," but LT910001 added "if information exists" instead, which doesn't satisfy my objection, because, like I stated, "Of course information regarding variations is very likely to exist." I started a new talk page section about this here since LT910001 considers the previous extensive discussions closed and suggested that any new discussion about the anatomy layout be addressed in a new, separate section. Here is the previous discussion on this matter, taken from the Guidelines mark 2 and Guidelines mark 4 sections above:
Any thoughts on the Variations listing? I view it as complicated. More than one aspect of an organ can have variations, and it will likely be best to discuss those variations in the appropriate sections instead of trying to lump them all in one section. So I don't see the Variations listing as needed. Flyer22 ( talk) 07:11, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- Concerning variations this isn't either relevant for all articles, but you can go as far as to say that pretty much each and every part of an organ/structure can vary. Variation should include the most common variations, which are most of the time variations of large sections of the organ, or the entire organ. Having a subdivision is a very easy way to find info on variations that is hard to find otherwise. Normally anatomy text-books, atlases etc. have individual sections on variations, and I believe Wikipedia should as well. The problem is not just one for Wikipedia, but its very hard to define many variations at all. For example the two main articles: Pectoralis major, Rectus abdominis & the variation Sternalis, looking in the literature it leaves a bit to discuss. CFCF ( talk) 10:48, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- Agree. One of the more frustrating things I had found initially when using Wikipedia is that it had no information on variation, which is one of the most interesting aspects of Anatomy. Almost every anatomical item is sure to have a degree of variation, and it's important to record it. -- LT910001 ( talk) 13:52, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- CFCF and LT910001, what we have stated on this matter is exactly why we should not be suggesting in our layout that an editor should create a Variations section. It's too complicated, because so many aspects can have variations and those are arguably better covered in the sections about those parts if a need is seen to cover them. Who is to say what are the most important variations that should be covered? We don't need all the variations packed into one section. And having more than one section titled Variations wouldn't be helpful, especially since editing that will automatically take the editor to the first section with the identical heading after pressing "Save page." Wikipedia is not supposed to mimic an anatomy book; it's supposed to summarize the anatomy information in a WP:Summary style manner. If we are to keep "Variations" in the layout, it should be stressed in the layout as an optional matter. Flyer22 ( talk) 14:22, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- If we are to treat Wikipedia as a serious resources for anatomy, we must at least attempt to reflect the field itself. Almost any anatomy resource consulted, to which I refer you to any textbook or journal article, covers the following four areas: structure, function, variation, and history. To not cover one of these areas is deliberately ignoring an important area of the field. I fail to see how discussing variation is any more "complicated" than, for example, selectively describing what complications may ensue from a disease. I do however agree with your point that this section should be optional, as there may indeed not be sufficient information available on many structures for this section to occur. -- LT910001 ( talk) 16:24, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- We (referring to our use of WP:MEDMOS) don't selectively describe what complications may ensue from a disease, not generally anyway; we describe, or at least mention, all of the diseases and their complications. "Generally" comes in with regard to the fact that we are not likely to mention complications that are not significant. And there usually are not too many complications to name. Comparing the "complications from a disease" matter and the vague, ever-possible variations matter is like comparing apples and oranges. I am not saying that we should not cover variations (I clearly stated that variations should be covered in the appropriate sections); I am saying that there is no need for a section titled Variations. And I don't know what else to state to explain my feelings on that matter. However, thanks for at least compromising on that. Flyer22 ( talk) 17:12, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
- With regard to this fourth proposal, "apparent consensus" should also be tagged to the Structure section (as we know, that section is implemented and has been for a long time). And on that note, I don't see why we need a "Substructures" listing; substructure material should be taken care of in the Structure section, and we shouldn't imply that a "Substructures" heading is ideal. I will never see the need for the headings that I have basically categorized as redundant above. My objections to your proposals still stand. However, I can be better onboard with your proposals if you change the following two things: "where these are documented" to "as appropriate" for the Variations listing. and remove "for minor anatomical structures." from the Development listing. As noted above, having a Variations section is not necessary because that material is likely better covered in the section about whatever aspect of the organ that is being discussed. And saying "where these are documented" makes it sound like there should be more than one section titled Variations. As for the Development section, as discussed above, making that material a subsection of the Structure section is not only a matter for minor anatomical structures; it's very valid to have the Development section be a subsection of the Structure section in a variety of cases; in fact, I can't think of a case where it's not valid. Even if there is one, it is few and far between. Flyer22 ( talk) 03:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- (1) Marked as apparent consensus. (2) Thanks for your comment on substructures; this is intended as a note to explain that substructures (such as each of the ossicles, or components of a system) should be covered as subsections of the structure section, and I have changed the wording accordingly. (3) As for development, I would like to keep the 'for minor anatomical structures' note, as there is a large divide between Anatomical articles which receive the most views and edits, yet are the minority of articles, and the large amount of poorly-edited Anatomical articles which constitute the majority of the Anatomical molass. The embryological development of larger structures can be quite extensive, and it may be better to have it as a separate section in larger articles. (4) Thanks for your comment on variations, that is indeed ambiguous, and I have changed the wording. Variations should be noted, however there may not actually be any information in literature about them recorded. -- LT910001 ( talk) 01:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
- While I appreciate you removing the Substructures listing and adding "if information exists" in place of "where these are documented" for the Variations listing, my objections still stand with regard to the Variations listing and the other above matters that I have objected to. The word choice "if information exists" is hardly any better/different. Of course information regarding variations is very likely to exist. And I cannot at all agree to retaining "for minor anatomical structures" with regard to the Development listing; I've already addressed why above, so to state more on that matter would be redundant. However, I will state this: Making the development material a subsection of the Structure section has nothing to do with how great or poor the article is; it has to do with, like I stated, it making a lot of sense, in a variety of cases, to present the material that way. Your insistence that we indicate to our editors that the Development section, if it is to be a subsection, should only be a subsection of the Structure section "for minor anatomical structures" does not make sense to me. Nor will I ever. Adding "especially" so that it reads "especially for minor anatomical structures" would be an improvement and not so narrow-sounding. But either way, WP:MEDMOS at least makes it clear that the format guidelines are suggestions and that editors do not have to format articles exactly the way that WP:MEDMOS does (besides that other stuff it states about imposing such formats on articles). Flyer22 ( talk) 02:08, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Comments from people other than us on this matter would be appreciated. Flyer22 ( talk) 00:36, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm starting to rewrite and expand aspergillosis as it is in dire need of it! However, this is a disease entity compromising of various subtypes. The only thing these have in common is their causative agent; the mechanisms, diagnoses, treatments and outcomes for the various subtypes are all radically different. How do I best arrange this article? Is it worth encompassing all of the subtypes within the same article, or merely using it as a summative page for the different entities? How do I best make it comply with MEDMOS?
Thanks for the help! --— Cyclonenim | Chat 15:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
There's a dispute at DRN about whether commonly used but non-evidence-based treatments should be included under ==Treatment== or cordoned off in another section, like ==Society and culture==. IMO the guideline's statement of "any type of currently used treatment" is clear enough, but I think we could reduce these disputes by specifically naming alternative medicine, and/or by adding a note that says "regardless of the level of evidence for the treatment's effectiveness".
To give an example, common self-care treatments for Hiccups, like drinking a glass of water, were apparently moved to ==Society and culture== a while ago, even though the guideline specifically names self-care as something to include under ==Treatment==.
What do you think? How would you reduce these disputes? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 16:21, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
At the moment, I agree that we should lean towards including separate sections inside of the society & culture section, to demarcate what is and what is not a currently-accepted evidence-based treatment, eg society and culture#Traditional X medicine. -- LT910001 ( talk) 02:05, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi everyone, according to this guide we should name articles as per the ICD-10 or DSM-5 and as the latter only applies to mental/behavioural illnesses the ICD-10 is the preferred for physical illnesses. Consequently I would like to bring your attention to the fact that the following articles are not named accordingly (in brackets is the applicable section of the ICD-10):
and its subtypes (like Acute lymphoblastic leukemia, acute myeloid leukemia, chronic lymphocytic leukemia and chronic myelogenous leukemia)
and its subtypes
and the list goes on. Now I think we need to reach a consensus otherwise we're contradicting ourselves by saying physical illnesses should be named as per the ICD-10 and then naming these differently. Fuse809 ( talk) 11:31, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
EDIT: I am NOT talking about American vs. British English! I know the rules with regard to these changes I am talking about ICD-10 as it is where this manual of style does not line up with what's actually occurring in practice!
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What I'm talking about here isn't simply changing from American to British English, I'm talking about the ICD-10 as we're supposed to be following it. I know about these rules regarding American to British English but what I'm talking about is different, are we keeping to the ICD-10 or are we making it up as we go along? Fuse809 ( talk) 15:46, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
That's not entirely true; essential thrombocytosis should be called essential thrombocythaemia according to the ICD-10. Fuse809 ( talk) 20:47, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Consequently I'm moving this page to make it in accordance with the ICD-10. Fuse809 ( talk) 21:11, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi, the order of drug articles suggested by this guide aren't in agreement with WP:PHARMMOS and its recommended article order. I hence suggest that we change this article, accordingly. I would just do it myself, but as I doubt I'm the first person that's realised this inconsistency I thought I should start a discussion first. Fuse809 ( talk) 07:17, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
PHARMMOS | MEDMOS |
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I think that's it. Any other differences? Anyone else have any opinions on what to do?
If it were entirely up to me, I might add a section on manufacturing process and pull legal approvals (for regulated pharmaceuticals) out into a separate section. I might do the same with economic information. But perhaps others would not agree. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 01:51, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I have boldly made this change [1]. IMO "medical uses" means what is done and what is supported by the evidence. Indications on the other hand is what has the FDA rubber stamped which is not always done and not always evidence based. Also a local / US centric term which we as a global encyclopedia should avoid. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:22, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
In short, we need a MOS guide (basically a supplement to this section MOS:ABBR#Miscellanea) for common medical terms (first occurrence rule, wikilink rule, sub/super-script rule (where relevant), etc). E.g. on the use of s.c., i.p., and i.v. administration routes or LD50 vs ld50 vs m.l.d.. Some terms should also be consistently abbreviated, as m.l.d. is sometimes used for median or minimum lethal dose which also may abbreviated as LD50 or LDmin respectively.
As far as I can tell, we have no guidance on the use of these terms in the wiki MOS or our MOS supplement; many medical substance articles use abbreviated terms like these and it appears that there's a lot of heterogeneity in the use of these terms as well. I'm not making a formal proposal on this - have too much other stuff on my wiki to-do list at the moment. Hoping someone else can hop on this, assuming this isn't already covered elsewhere in the MOS. Seppi333 ( Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 03:45, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
It seems to me that Drugs pages from PubMed Health (a site developed by Hida Bastian, alias Hildabast, among others, dedicated to reliable information regarding clinical effectiveness) may provide external links that could be genuinely helpful to our readers. Worth of inclusion in this guideline? 86.169.210.196 ( talk) 17:42, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
I have added a "usage" section to medication articles to match the "epidemiology" section we have in disease related articles [4] Thoughts? Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Introduction
I have tried to edit this style guide to reflect the fact that when it comes to amphetamine-related articles we generally keep to the USAN instead of the INN, but the edit was reverted by CFCF. I am personally in favour of changing the name of amphetamine articles to the corresponding INN names, but I realize that due problems of recognizability most Wikipedians I have come across favour the USAN (e.g. Seppi333 and Jmh649). Which is fine, they're entitled to their opinion, as I am entitled to mine, but I think we need to reach a consensus and finally put all this pedantic arguing (yes, mostly on my part, not trying to point the finger of blame at anyone else) to bed.
My argument for the move to INN titles for these articles
The INN is something I would favour based on the grounds of lisdexamfetamine's naming and the fact that virtually every medical association or organization worldwide has adopted this naming which perfectly reflects the INN for dextroamphetamine, dexamfetamine. Plus the British Approved Names for the amphetamines tends to conform better with the INN, hence given enough time for these naming conventions to sink in it may just become a regional preference as to which naming convention is preferred, that is, if you live in the U.K. dexamfetamine and metamfetamine may become common use, whereas if you live in the U.S. dextroamphetamine and methamphetamine may still be commonplace. It is also nice to have a "one glove fits all" for the naming of drug articles, in my opinion, at least.
The arguments against such a move I am aware of
Recognizability and chemical correctness are the major ones I've seen. Chemical correctness refers to the phenyl (which is used by chemists) vs. fenyl (which is the spelling that is implied by the INN). But I would just like to add that if we accept this argument and do not criticize it we would have to rename the fenfluramine article as phenfluramine. As for recognizability well we can have redirects (which would be in place as soon as any of these articles are moved, by default) in case people search for the more conventional names so it is unlikely anyone will get lost, especially if we mention in the lead the alternate spellings. It is sort of like the variations of English, so long as we mention the alternate spellings, and create redirect pages at the alternate spelling or terminology it is unlikely that readers and/or editors will get lost.
Bottom line
All I am here to propose is that we reach a consensus, here and now, and either vote in favour of naming all articles based on the INN, or in favour of making occasional exceptions to this general rule for amphetamine-related articles like methamphetamine, dextroamphetamine, amphetamine, levoamphetamine, etc. If I am ranting and raving about a consensus that has already been reached please do direct me to this consensus so I may henceforth remain silent, as I am willing to accept the consensus of Wikipedia's editors. Thank you for everyone's time it is much appreciated.
By the way, I believe the standard is to leave your remarks below my comment, instead of editing my comment, I hope so as I think we all deserve to give our own opinions and hear each other's opinions, regardless of how ridiculous some of us may find them so that we can reach a unanimous consensus. Brenton ( contribs · email · talk · uploads) 21:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I think it could be helpful to specify that this section is for prevention strategies that are actually in use, rather than potential strategies (which could go under Research directions). 86.157.144.73 ( talk) 12:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I have a question I would like to open to the community here about something I've noticed on alternative medicine pages. I have noticed several pages such as herbalism, ayurvedic, homeopathy, naturopathy, and applied kinesiology have a certain order but others such as acupuncture and chiropractic (more the former than the latter article) serve as examples of contrast and do not put the history section in the beginning (though the chiropractic article does have conceptual basis in the beginning and it could be argued that is at least somewhat related to the history section). So, is there a page that guides us on this or a policy about how to order sections in alternative medicine (system) articles? If so, can someone direct me to this page please?. If not, perhaps we should discuss this issue since there seems to be a lack of uniformity in the articles. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 06:45, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Not sure if there would be an advantage to uniformity. The altmed space is diverse enough that different topics may require different ordering. Generally, a chronological basis for ordering gives a natural reading order - so if there is a "History" section having it first would be reasonable. One thing to be alert to is a propensity from some POV-pushers to try and gather the "negative" material in one section and then push it down the article. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 07:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I suggest the flow of such articles to be like this : cause & transmission --> symptoms & signs --> pathophysiology --> diagnosis --> treatment/management --> prognosis --> prevention --> epidemiology --> history. This is supposed to be also the "flow" of getting and tackling a disease, isn't it? Biomedicinal ( talk) 04:28, 13 August 2014
Can we specify the section ordering in addictive drug articles for sections on substance dependence and/or addiction (this would also affect the current placement of withdrawal) in our MOS for standardization? I'm bringing this up since the section ordering came up in my FA nomination for amphetamine, which has withdrawal placed under overdose.
We currently indicate placing
withdrawal under adverse effects; this concept, in a clinical context (per the DSM), is closely related to
substance dependence (i.e., more or less, "drug addiction") since it is always paired with
physical dependence and/or
psychological dependence. Ideally, I think these topics should either be together in a new level 2 section titled "Addiction" or "Substance dependence" (these two terms are apt/appropriate section headers for any subsections on tolerance, withdrawal, sensitization, physical dependence, and psychological dependence) or be placed as a subsection of either "Overdose" or "Adverse effects" – the prevailing position in current medical reviews would then be used to determine which of the two headers is more appropriate for addiction-related subsections in a given drug article. I think overdose would be a more apt section heading than adverse effects for these, primarily because I'm not aware of any addictive pharmaceuticals which have the capacity to induce a true addiction (i.e., ruinously compulsive drug use) when taken as indicated (i.e., at therapeutic doses), except in rare cases/unusual circumstances.
This isn't a particularly urgent proposal, but I think it is necessary to develop the layout for these sections in our articles on addictive drugs. I'd also like to have amphetamine's layout agree with the MOS. Seppi333 ( Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 22:59, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
The lead to MEDRS is written carefully to broadly cover health-related content. I wonder, why is this guideline narrowly focused on "medical" articles? Shall we broaden it? Jytdog ( talk) 10:19, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm trying to learn about the ways people prefer to see medical content presented, and have a question about this example from the guideline:
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)I know that people like these figures, but I'm wondering what the benefit is of providing them all in one citation, when in the above example the URL and DOI lead to http://bioinformatics.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/20/2339. And the PMC shows that it's available via PubMed, so is there a benefit of adding the PMID alongside the other identifiers? Any info would be much appreciated. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:17, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
About once a year or so, someone changes some sex-specific articles to refer to "people" rather than "males" or "men". This has happened, for example, at Pregnancy, which is a condition that only affects biological females (among humans). It also happens (perhaps more often) at articles that are more complicated on the sex and gender front, such as articles about conditions that disproportionately affect intersex people.
In broad overview, the relevant cases are:
The last two are the easy ones: You should avoid talking about "males" or "men" when the information applies to everyone equally. You should be especially careful about gendered language when writing about intersex and transgender issues.
The first is the complicated case, and the one that I'd like to get people's opinions on.
If you write, "X% of women and Y% of men died of heart attacks last year", then people who don't identify with the gender binary will feel excluded, and people whose biological sex does not match their gender identity may not know which statistic applies to themselves. This will include some intersexed people, but not all of them.
If you write "X% of females and Y% of males died of heart attacks last year", then people may complain that the text is harder (in readability terms, the less-familiar word males is a slightly 'harder' word than men). Lay- and patient-oriented websites tend to use words like women more often than females. It may also seem less warm and human(e), similar to calling people "patients" or "cases" rather than "people". Because "male" applies from (before) birth, writing about males will sometimes be interpreted as meaning both men and boys, even if the context is only relevant to adult (or even aged) males. This will include transgendered people, but it will still exclude intersexed people.
If you write "Z% of people died of heart attacks last year", then you lose the sex-specific information. In other cases, you may not be able to convert: If the source says that "Y% of women became pregnant last year", you cannot convert that into "Z% of people" (which includes the entire population of the world) or re-phrase it as "Y% of females" (which implies all ages of females, including infants), because your answer will be wrong and you will violate WP:NOR.
I think we can take it as read that NOR-violating transformations are unacceptable. However, that leaves us a lot of room. Here are some questions that I'd like you to think about:
I'm interested in hearing opinions. As far as I'm concerned, the more opinions, the better. WP:There is no deadline for figuring out what ideas we have on this question. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 00:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for dropping a note @ WPANATOMY, Flyer22. From my perspective, there are a few things that I'd take into account:
Note: We have another case here regarding the Vaginismus article; it concerns an edit by Sourlacte ( talk · contribs). Flyer22 ( talk) 03:59, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Regarding Sourlacte's changes, some of them are reasonable (and I tweaked this bit), but it's not reasonable to remove every instance of "woman" from the article. Same goes for stating "female" in this case. Flyer22 ( talk) 04:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
If "some of them are reasonable" then all of them are. Vaginismus could be suffered by women as much as by non-transitioned trans men, transitioned trans men and intersex people. It's therefore innacurate to be sex-specific when it's merely about the vaginal opening, not, say, the whole biological female reproductive system. I would still refrain from total sex-specificity since we can simply refer to organs or systems by themselves, but it's even more reasonable in this case. And no, you don't just rely on "they know". Dysphoria is a delicate thing, it's not 42% of us suiciding out of nothing. I'm not saying we should hold responsibility on this, but merely that if trans people are a reality, then you simply adjust to that, and avoid being innacurate when talking about sex-related information: we're not covering the people, we're covering the body. I'm editing it again. Sourlacte ( talk) 15:52, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
~~~~
. I signed your post for you above.
Flyer22 (
talk)
16:21, 31 October 2014 (UTC)I'm looking at the list for drugs and devices, and I am thinking that it was written for drugs (chemicals) and not necessarily for things. For devices, it might make more sense to start off with what the thing is. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:51, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
For disease articles, could ==Types== be a useful alternative to ==Classification==?
"Types" might be an appropriate and more reader-friendly option, imo, for selected content that is intended for lay readers (per
WP:AUDIENCE).
109.157.83.50 (
talk)
16:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The page seems to be growing unnecessarily. Per the comment above that all bolded words are now suggestions, we also have:
So, why do we need four possible choices, and how is the new-to-Wikipedia editor to sort which to use? What was wrong with one, perhaps two, terms? Really, this all seems to be fiddling for the sake of fiddling, and I'm not yet convinced clarity has been added. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:58, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Two questions:
Thoughts? Jytdog ( talk) 16:39, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
thanks for putting that into the body - I was going to do that, today. I'm not wikilawyering LEAD and i am speaking to its heart. And while IAR is great, you and I both know that we need guidelines and you yourself cite them all the time in making changes and reverting others. To the point... I don't get the focus on putting pregnancy info in the lead - that is the bigger issue. Since you are so prolific James, and since seems to have become part of your editing style, it seems to be something that we should all discuss with regard to MEDMOS. It is really not clear to me whether pregnancy info always belongs there. Maybe we'll all decide it belongs there. Maybe not. Jytdog ( talk) 14:34, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
We had a meeting at Cancer Research UK at which we discussed simplifying some of our terms. We should discuss them one by one and then I guess have a support oppose to determine if we should move in this direction. The plan is to have a bot make the changes that have consensus. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Mechanism IMO is a similar term. Both are currently acceptable. I propose we use mechanism consistently. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Outcomes is simpler and more understandable. They are similar enough that I would support the change. Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Outcomes ? Really? With "prognosis" completely removed, not even an alternate. So, how does that work for neuropsych conditions? It sounds like wording put through by editors mostly dealing with "diseases" (that have more of a defined beginning and end) than those dealing with "conditions", eg neuropsych conditions, that don't necessarily have an "outcome" ... one just lives with them. As I was absent when this silliness went through, I suggest we add back Prognosis, alongside this new Outcomes. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 10:47, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Not sure if there is a simpler term we can use. Statistics maybe but it is not that similar. Can others think of suggestion? Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Populations affected? -- Anthonyhcole ( talk · contribs · email) 17:56, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
My immediate thought would be to use Those affected. -- CFCF 🍌 ( email) 07:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
As to whether these suggestions were meant to be just that, see the section headings above on this page, where the discussions were for one term instead of another. There may be a problem with my reading comprehension, but to me, that means replacing one with another, as in, eliminating one. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:43, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Earlier this year the heading "indications" was changed to uses. This followed a discussion in 2011. A "use" may not be indicated; it could just be optional, so the meaning was changed a bit here.
Should "contraindications" likewise be changed to be the opposite of "uses"? A contraindication is a strong deterrent, but sometimes there is discouragement which is not a contraindication. For example, sometimes doctors and mothers somehow decide to have caesarean section surgery when it is not medically indicated, and various authorities say that this ought not happen and people should not be choosing to have surgeries without a medical indication. Similarly, there are other treatments which are discouraged but not contraindicated. Wikipedia was criticized for not giving information about FDA drug safety alerts, which again frequently are not contraindications but may be reasons to avoid using something. Is it the intent of this heading to usage warnings which are not contraindications?
Does this heading need to exist at all, or should it just be part of uses? There is always a uses section in articles. The contraindications section may or may not appear.
Other names could be "When to not use", "Uses to avoid", "Reasons to avoid", "Usage warnings", or just "Warnings". Note that for drugs we already have an "adverse effects" section and for procedures a "risks and complications" section in addition to the contraindications section of each of those.
I like "Warnings". Does that fit here? Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)