![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
It strikes me that we have, fundamentally, two types of lists: lists that are indexes of notable subjects with articles, and lists that are compendiums of minor subjects without articles. I feel that this basic distinction should be addressed somehow in the list guidelines. For the line that got me thinking in this direction, please see Wikipedia_talk:Notability#Lists.-- Pharos 22:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I propose that the title of this page be changed back to Wikipedia:Lists. It was changed to its current title in April 2006 (I could find no discussion regarding the move) with the summary: make purpose of page clearer, clear up confusion with Help:List. However, any potential confusion with Help:List is cleared up by the notice at the top of the page. The use of "guideline" in the title is unnecessary, non-standard, and (in my opinion) even awkward. Comments? -- Black Falcon ( Talk) 05:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I was redirected here from the Manual of Style discussion.
Are there any guidelines about categorized or hierarchical lists, specifically "Unsorted", "Miscellaneous" or "Other" headings? IMO this is far worse than a trivia section in an article, as the whole point of a categorized list is to organize by topic. For a specific example, I would like to point out List of vegetable oils (a featured list), with an "Other oils" section. This section will not be interesting for people to read. Just glancing at it, I see that further headings could be made for "Medicine", "Cosmetics" and "Insecticides".
These sections can make the article look unreliable (see: List_of_edible_seeds#Miscellaneous), and can also mean that the item does not meet the requirements of the list (see: List_of_fruits#Unsorted). I did put the Template:expert in those, which I know makes it look worse.
Could some guideline be made about this? I would love to have an unsorted template (like Template:Trivia) to put into such lists. My basic idea is this: if an item cannot be categorized then it probably does not belong on that categorical list. JohnnyMrNinja 19:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I know there has been some controversy in the past as to whether lists need to be cited. I have been taking uncited lists and checking the articles for citations and gathering the results. The results are that in most cases only 1/3 to 1/2 of the articles are cited. See User:Until(1 == 2)/Wikilinks are not references#Notes to see the results. Using wikilinks as a source does not work because Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and the articles are often unsourced or just plain wrong. Until(1 == 2) 20:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please explain why the following lists were proposed for speedy deletion? I fail to see how these lists differ from any variety of musical lists. Thanks. ( Mind meal 03:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC))
These lists are all still deletable since they are basically just lists of links, tarted up. They have been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Electric blues musicians. Most or all of them are already categories, which is the appropriate way to handle this. Further, the argument that the creator advances that they are a useful place for red links is a bogus argument, since a more appropriate place for red links is project pages like Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians. Hu 23:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
On such lists as The Simpsons (season 1) should people get multiple links. For example David Silverman; should he only be linked at his first mention (episode 1), or in multiple episodes episode 1, 2, 5, 9 and 13)? -- Steinn inn 18:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)-- Steinn inn 18:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia: Village pump (policy)#Proposal to make a policy or guideline for lists. Thanks! Sidatio 17:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Please also see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Contents pages, and lists of lists, about the Wikipedia:Contents pages, and specifically on the namespace they belong in. Thanks. -- Quiddity 01:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Are lists in the category (and sub-categories) of Lists of people by nationality encyclopaedic? Do they they add any value beyond what the categories ( Category:People by nationality) already do? I'd put it up for AfD but as it's a mammouth task wanted to check that it hadn't already been discussed before. → AA ( talk) — 12:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Recently, there have been several inconsistencies noted in Articles for deletion regarding lists. The conversation at User:Sidatio/Conversations/On list guidelines seems to indicate this stems from a lack of guidance from one of the few official guidelines on the topic - WP:LIST. This has led to several AfDs for lists being judged by points raised in essays like WP:LISTCRUFT, which has caused a measurable amount of controversy and contention between so-called "deletionists" and "inclusionists".
The aforementioned discussion drew insight from several notable, experienced Wikipedians, and has thus far seemed to come to the following conclusions:
In light of these findings, the discussion has produced the following proposed solutions:
SHORT TERM:
“ | Further, there should be at least three criteria for inclusion on a stand-alone list of people, or two criteria for inclusion on non-people related lists. For example, List of Armenian women nurses, or List of mountains in Peru. If there's two or less criteria for people-related lists, or one criteria for non-people related lists (ex. List of Pakistani women or List of Chevrolets), they should exist only as index lists, where sub-lists related to that particular topic can be archived. A good example of this is Lists of Americans. | ” |
“ | Also, be mindful of the number of entries on the list. If there's less than fifteen notable entries that can be represented on the list, it would be best to keep that list as a sub-section of its parent topic, rather than making a stand-alone list. For example, if a List of French Olympic curlers only turns up five or six notable entries, keep those entries as part of Sport in France#Olympic Games. Likewise, if the article grows to 150 or so entries, it would be prudent to explore sub-listing as a way to keep the list from becoming overwhelming. | ” |
LONG TERM:
Please comment on the short-term proprosal at User talk:Sidatio/Proto WP:LIST. For comments and input on the long-term solution, please go to User:Sidatio/Conversations/On list guidelines#Categories need to be a tool, not a source of navigation frustration. We look forward to as much input from the community as we can get. Thank you. Sidatio 13:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Given the confusion I've seen in AfD discussions, I'd like to add the following sentence to Wikipedia:Lists#Criteria for inclusion in lists: "Review Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) for further clarification (see also WP:NOT#DIR)." My reasonings are set out in full at User:Sidatio/Conversations/On_list_guidelines#Alternate_proposal:_clarification_and_alteration_of_up_to_three_policies. I'm bringing it up here before implementing such a change to see if there are objections. :) (And also to ask anyone else interested in joining the conversation at [[ User:Sidatio/Conversations/On_list_guidelines to please chime in. The conversation is flagging. :))-- Moonriddengirl 12:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Come look at the deetion review, and help shape weather having a category means there cant be a list.-- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
From the project page:
What exactly does "especially" mean in the context of "always"? Jakew 12:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
There used to be a section describing how to format a list, including the punctuation at the end of a list item, and whether the first letter of an item of a list should be capitalized. Has it been moved elsewhere? Is there yet any such guideline? -- Dan Polansky 11:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the long-standing formulation related to the need to have inclusionary criteria clearly stated in lists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
List should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources. This is particularly important in the case of difficult or contentious topics. Beware of those cases in which the definitions themselves are disputed. Many lists on Wikipedia have been created without any membership criteria, and editors are left to guess about what or who should be included only from the name of the list. Even if it might "seem obvious" what qualifies for membership in a list, explicit is better than implicit. Some lists are not appropriate, either because it's impossible to specify clear, neutral point-of-view inclusion criteria, or for other reasons; see Wikipedia:Overcategorization.
First off, I object to the erudite language this uses. "Statements of membership criteria"? When did we start talking like this? The issue here is the article's topic. Either a list item fits the topic, or it doesn't. If material is off-topic, it doesn't belong in an article. If a topic is unclear, it needs to be made clear in the lead. We do not need to invent new jargon to cover this. The guideline already covered this in Simple English. There's no reason to restate it in long-winded verbage. The Transhumanist 20:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten the inclusion criteria bit so that it is understandable. The meaning is still there, but it is much clearer what that meaning is. The Transhumanist 20:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not at all clear to what you are referring to. I keep running into AfDs where nominators claim there is no inclusion criteria specified, when the title makes it perfectly clear. The Transhumanist 00:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Which list was in AfD in which the argument for deletion was "lack of inclusion criteria"? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
(BTW, such argument in an AfD is silly. If there is no inclusion criteria, add one). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Lists are not a special kind of article, as lists reside in Wikipedia article's mainspace and are actual articles. As such, lists cannot bypass any of our content policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I see now the problem clearly: There is no such a thing as a "special type of article". All pages in mainspace carry the same burden. The fact that an article is named "Lis of xxxx" means absolutely nothing as it pertains to the need to abide by our policies. A list about which membership is not obvious would fail our policy of WP:V and in some cases will violate WP:NOR, that is why we need a statement in the lead that states inclusion criteria. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not think that we are that far apart in our understanding, and the current wording may be sufficient to highlight the concerns I was expressing. May be a lead to this guideline can summarize the salient points of this guideline, including the fact that lists are articles.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk)
20:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Embedded lists don't usually have a lead section.
The concept of lead section (in Wikipedia context) is explained in Wikipedia:Lead section.
Maybe some examples might help:
Can anyone demonstrate what kind of lead section (if any) would be beneficial to such embedded lists? -- Francis Schonken 08:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
One thing that is noticeably absent from this guideline is the acknowledgement that we also include stand-alone lists which are not just "lists of links". For example, List of Pokémon (481-493), or List of minor Heroes characters with special abilities. These are often a collection of stub or stub-like mini-articles, which may not be individually notable enough for separate articles, but are notable as a group. I'd fix it myself, but I thought I'd first get discussion on how such an explanation should be worded. DHowell 02:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
If interested, please join a discussion on the above topic Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Lists UnitedStatesian 13:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I've seen a couple of lists that are exact mirrors of a category. Is there a point to having two articles with identical information? -- Neon white 18:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
This list guideline defines lists and lists of lists as articles; and the main namespace is where articles belong. The avoid self-references guideline advises against references in the main namespace to Wikipedia or any of its components; the word "list" in every list page title is self-referential in this regard, because it refers to a list in Wikipedia rather than a list (such as a published list) in the external world. This means that all lists in the main namespace violate WP:ASR, but lists (and lists of lists) are allowed by this list guideline which designates them as articles.
Due to this contradiction, the pages " Lists of topics", " Lists of basic topics", and " List of glossaries" have been moved to the portal namespace, apparently because they are all lists of lists. I believe they are articles as defined by this list guideline. Wikipedia has many lists of lists, including Lists of mathematics topics, and they are all in clear violation of WP:ASR. Our guidelines need to be in agreement as to where lists and lists of lists belong so that their location remains stable and not subject to being moved by editors enforcing one guideline over another.
This contradiction needs to be removed by referring to the relevant passages of Wikipedia:Lists in WP:ASR, or by some other remedy, so that editors are aware of them, and to prevent conflicts between list builders and ASR enforcers.
The Transhumanist 06:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "[...] The Transhumanist's [...] project" (quoted from above): nobody seems to be worried about the WP:OWN implications of such assertion. Could we sort this out first? Who owns which project? -- Francis Schonken 23:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I've spent an hour re-writing this, so hopefully it is clear and calm and concise enough for everyone. Thoughts? -- Quiddity 03:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
It occurred to me that this might be possible, even if not necessarily a good idea. What are your thoughts on the benefits and drawbacks of this?-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Index Lists, a complex issue which I've tried to summarize. It concerns pages in mainspace like List of timelines, List of basic mathematics topics, and List of film topics. Its scope is currently a few hundred pages, and potentially a few thousand pages. Feedback would be appreciated. -- Quiddity ( talk) 19:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Say a list is broken out of a main article. such as List of low-cost carriers. Is it realistic to expect the list article has to prove WP:N completely independently of the article on low-cost carriers, Or is the notability assumed or inherited from the main article? (Or some middle-ground, like a lower notability threshold if the main article sufficiently asserts notability?) If it has to be proved, how would you do it in an article like that? Torc2 ( talk) 21:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
What is the preferred length for a list? I know that for prose articles its usually best to split up large articles if they become difficult to work with. Does the same hold true for lists? For example, List_of_fictional_United_States_Presidents is a huge list >170 kb in length. I have suggested splitting it up by various sections of the alphabet. But some others do not agree citing other examples of lists being split up resulting in bad lists. Is there any consensus or precedent on this? will381796 21:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
On a related note, there is the ongoing project that resulted in this Afd: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Philippine_actresses. I think there needs to be some sort if method for splitting such lists or some sort of size limit for lists...can you imagine what a list of Bollywood or American actors would look like? -- Kickstart70 T C 01:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cities in Germany starting with S and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of rivers of India for more examples of the gross abuse of these List guidelines by deletionists who seem to never waver in their attempts to delete lists. These deletion attempts might be better treated as vandal blanking than anything else; they just waste time of editors who would otherwise be trying to improve WP. Could improvements be made in the List Guidelines to stomp on such attempts faster and easier? Hmains 05:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it makes sense to do some surgery to this page: basically moving all of the content that applies only to stand-alone lists to Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists), and all of the content that applies only to embedded lists to Wikipedia:Lists (embedded lists). What would be left is only the material that applies to both (like the section on how to format lists), as well as an intro. that distinguishes between the two list types and directs the reader to either page as appropriate. Thoughts/reactions? UnitedStatesian ( talk) 17:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey. First off, my apologies if this is posted in the wrong place. There's been a sizable edit war going on over at Talk:List of Cuban Americans between two editors regarding the inclusion of non-notable names, and adding people multiple times (e.g. adding a director/actor into the sections on directing and acting). I gave a third opinion there, but it doesn't seem to have quelled the fires. Is there a way to get a ruling on this sort of thing based on Wikipedia policy? Can some people from here go over and comment on there? I'm just looking to put an end to their edit war, so really any sort of advice would be helpful. Thanks! — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 04:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
In a previous section I saw a discussion about moving lists to various spaces. I think discussions about lists should be here, not buried in obscure village pump pages, user pages, notice boards, etc.. This is the talk page for list guidelines and decisions.
There shouldn't be votes taken from obscure discussions. I am against anything that lessens the access of lists to more readers. Otherwise the lists will not be maintained well. It takes a lot of drive-by editors from the hundreds of millions of wikipedia readers to keep up the millions of wikipedia pages and lists. Especially lists.
I also discuss things more here:
In many lists some fanatic spam-fighters are destroying longstanding wikipedia lists by deleting the vast majority of list entries on list pages because many of the list entries use primary sourcing.
Why are lists treated any differently from articles? In articles the topic must be notable. But every fact in the article does not have to be notable. Many facts in articles are not notable. The individual facts in articles often come from info buried in obscure journals, and are hardly notable in themselves.
Some info isn't referenced at all, since it is self-evident. Wikipedia requires sourcing for info that is not self-evident. Primary sourcing is acceptable for some uncontroversial info. Many list entries are uncontroversial. The primary sourcing is all that is needed. Spam fighters delete the primary sourcing, and then say the list entry is not sourced. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 15:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
A single link.
Instead of some fanatic spam fighters destroying many longstanding wikipedia pages in their efforts to block single links for list entries on a list page, they should solve the main problem of spam in the external links sections of articles. That is where multiple spam links are added. See my discussion at
I point out there that the simple solution is to push for the elimination of the right of unregistered users to add links to the external links sections of articles. That is where the vast majority of multiple linking occurs.
A single primary-source link is used for a list entry without a separate wikipedia page. It is the same single primary-source link used on separate blue-linked pages put on lists. Either way it is still only one link total to the primary source.
A single link. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 15:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
It strikes me that we have, fundamentally, two types of lists: lists that are indexes of notable subjects with articles, and lists that are compendiums of minor subjects without articles. I feel that this basic distinction should be addressed somehow in the list guidelines. For the line that got me thinking in this direction, please see Wikipedia_talk:Notability#Lists.-- Pharos 22:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I propose that the title of this page be changed back to Wikipedia:Lists. It was changed to its current title in April 2006 (I could find no discussion regarding the move) with the summary: make purpose of page clearer, clear up confusion with Help:List. However, any potential confusion with Help:List is cleared up by the notice at the top of the page. The use of "guideline" in the title is unnecessary, non-standard, and (in my opinion) even awkward. Comments? -- Black Falcon ( Talk) 05:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I was redirected here from the Manual of Style discussion.
Are there any guidelines about categorized or hierarchical lists, specifically "Unsorted", "Miscellaneous" or "Other" headings? IMO this is far worse than a trivia section in an article, as the whole point of a categorized list is to organize by topic. For a specific example, I would like to point out List of vegetable oils (a featured list), with an "Other oils" section. This section will not be interesting for people to read. Just glancing at it, I see that further headings could be made for "Medicine", "Cosmetics" and "Insecticides".
These sections can make the article look unreliable (see: List_of_edible_seeds#Miscellaneous), and can also mean that the item does not meet the requirements of the list (see: List_of_fruits#Unsorted). I did put the Template:expert in those, which I know makes it look worse.
Could some guideline be made about this? I would love to have an unsorted template (like Template:Trivia) to put into such lists. My basic idea is this: if an item cannot be categorized then it probably does not belong on that categorical list. JohnnyMrNinja 19:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I know there has been some controversy in the past as to whether lists need to be cited. I have been taking uncited lists and checking the articles for citations and gathering the results. The results are that in most cases only 1/3 to 1/2 of the articles are cited. See User:Until(1 == 2)/Wikilinks are not references#Notes to see the results. Using wikilinks as a source does not work because Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and the articles are often unsourced or just plain wrong. Until(1 == 2) 20:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please explain why the following lists were proposed for speedy deletion? I fail to see how these lists differ from any variety of musical lists. Thanks. ( Mind meal 03:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC))
These lists are all still deletable since they are basically just lists of links, tarted up. They have been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Electric blues musicians. Most or all of them are already categories, which is the appropriate way to handle this. Further, the argument that the creator advances that they are a useful place for red links is a bogus argument, since a more appropriate place for red links is project pages like Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians. Hu 23:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
On such lists as The Simpsons (season 1) should people get multiple links. For example David Silverman; should he only be linked at his first mention (episode 1), or in multiple episodes episode 1, 2, 5, 9 and 13)? -- Steinn inn 18:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)-- Steinn inn 18:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia: Village pump (policy)#Proposal to make a policy or guideline for lists. Thanks! Sidatio 17:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Please also see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Contents pages, and lists of lists, about the Wikipedia:Contents pages, and specifically on the namespace they belong in. Thanks. -- Quiddity 01:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Are lists in the category (and sub-categories) of Lists of people by nationality encyclopaedic? Do they they add any value beyond what the categories ( Category:People by nationality) already do? I'd put it up for AfD but as it's a mammouth task wanted to check that it hadn't already been discussed before. → AA ( talk) — 12:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Recently, there have been several inconsistencies noted in Articles for deletion regarding lists. The conversation at User:Sidatio/Conversations/On list guidelines seems to indicate this stems from a lack of guidance from one of the few official guidelines on the topic - WP:LIST. This has led to several AfDs for lists being judged by points raised in essays like WP:LISTCRUFT, which has caused a measurable amount of controversy and contention between so-called "deletionists" and "inclusionists".
The aforementioned discussion drew insight from several notable, experienced Wikipedians, and has thus far seemed to come to the following conclusions:
In light of these findings, the discussion has produced the following proposed solutions:
SHORT TERM:
“ | Further, there should be at least three criteria for inclusion on a stand-alone list of people, or two criteria for inclusion on non-people related lists. For example, List of Armenian women nurses, or List of mountains in Peru. If there's two or less criteria for people-related lists, or one criteria for non-people related lists (ex. List of Pakistani women or List of Chevrolets), they should exist only as index lists, where sub-lists related to that particular topic can be archived. A good example of this is Lists of Americans. | ” |
“ | Also, be mindful of the number of entries on the list. If there's less than fifteen notable entries that can be represented on the list, it would be best to keep that list as a sub-section of its parent topic, rather than making a stand-alone list. For example, if a List of French Olympic curlers only turns up five or six notable entries, keep those entries as part of Sport in France#Olympic Games. Likewise, if the article grows to 150 or so entries, it would be prudent to explore sub-listing as a way to keep the list from becoming overwhelming. | ” |
LONG TERM:
Please comment on the short-term proprosal at User talk:Sidatio/Proto WP:LIST. For comments and input on the long-term solution, please go to User:Sidatio/Conversations/On list guidelines#Categories need to be a tool, not a source of navigation frustration. We look forward to as much input from the community as we can get. Thank you. Sidatio 13:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Given the confusion I've seen in AfD discussions, I'd like to add the following sentence to Wikipedia:Lists#Criteria for inclusion in lists: "Review Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) for further clarification (see also WP:NOT#DIR)." My reasonings are set out in full at User:Sidatio/Conversations/On_list_guidelines#Alternate_proposal:_clarification_and_alteration_of_up_to_three_policies. I'm bringing it up here before implementing such a change to see if there are objections. :) (And also to ask anyone else interested in joining the conversation at [[ User:Sidatio/Conversations/On_list_guidelines to please chime in. The conversation is flagging. :))-- Moonriddengirl 12:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Come look at the deetion review, and help shape weather having a category means there cant be a list.-- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 01:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
From the project page:
What exactly does "especially" mean in the context of "always"? Jakew 12:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
There used to be a section describing how to format a list, including the punctuation at the end of a list item, and whether the first letter of an item of a list should be capitalized. Has it been moved elsewhere? Is there yet any such guideline? -- Dan Polansky 11:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the long-standing formulation related to the need to have inclusionary criteria clearly stated in lists. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
List should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources. This is particularly important in the case of difficult or contentious topics. Beware of those cases in which the definitions themselves are disputed. Many lists on Wikipedia have been created without any membership criteria, and editors are left to guess about what or who should be included only from the name of the list. Even if it might "seem obvious" what qualifies for membership in a list, explicit is better than implicit. Some lists are not appropriate, either because it's impossible to specify clear, neutral point-of-view inclusion criteria, or for other reasons; see Wikipedia:Overcategorization.
First off, I object to the erudite language this uses. "Statements of membership criteria"? When did we start talking like this? The issue here is the article's topic. Either a list item fits the topic, or it doesn't. If material is off-topic, it doesn't belong in an article. If a topic is unclear, it needs to be made clear in the lead. We do not need to invent new jargon to cover this. The guideline already covered this in Simple English. There's no reason to restate it in long-winded verbage. The Transhumanist 20:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I've rewritten the inclusion criteria bit so that it is understandable. The meaning is still there, but it is much clearer what that meaning is. The Transhumanist 20:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not at all clear to what you are referring to. I keep running into AfDs where nominators claim there is no inclusion criteria specified, when the title makes it perfectly clear. The Transhumanist 00:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Which list was in AfD in which the argument for deletion was "lack of inclusion criteria"? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
(BTW, such argument in an AfD is silly. If there is no inclusion criteria, add one). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Lists are not a special kind of article, as lists reside in Wikipedia article's mainspace and are actual articles. As such, lists cannot bypass any of our content policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I see now the problem clearly: There is no such a thing as a "special type of article". All pages in mainspace carry the same burden. The fact that an article is named "Lis of xxxx" means absolutely nothing as it pertains to the need to abide by our policies. A list about which membership is not obvious would fail our policy of WP:V and in some cases will violate WP:NOR, that is why we need a statement in the lead that states inclusion criteria. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not think that we are that far apart in our understanding, and the current wording may be sufficient to highlight the concerns I was expressing. May be a lead to this guideline can summarize the salient points of this guideline, including the fact that lists are articles.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk)
20:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Embedded lists don't usually have a lead section.
The concept of lead section (in Wikipedia context) is explained in Wikipedia:Lead section.
Maybe some examples might help:
Can anyone demonstrate what kind of lead section (if any) would be beneficial to such embedded lists? -- Francis Schonken 08:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
One thing that is noticeably absent from this guideline is the acknowledgement that we also include stand-alone lists which are not just "lists of links". For example, List of Pokémon (481-493), or List of minor Heroes characters with special abilities. These are often a collection of stub or stub-like mini-articles, which may not be individually notable enough for separate articles, but are notable as a group. I'd fix it myself, but I thought I'd first get discussion on how such an explanation should be worded. DHowell 02:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
If interested, please join a discussion on the above topic Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject Lists UnitedStatesian 13:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I've seen a couple of lists that are exact mirrors of a category. Is there a point to having two articles with identical information? -- Neon white 18:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
This list guideline defines lists and lists of lists as articles; and the main namespace is where articles belong. The avoid self-references guideline advises against references in the main namespace to Wikipedia or any of its components; the word "list" in every list page title is self-referential in this regard, because it refers to a list in Wikipedia rather than a list (such as a published list) in the external world. This means that all lists in the main namespace violate WP:ASR, but lists (and lists of lists) are allowed by this list guideline which designates them as articles.
Due to this contradiction, the pages " Lists of topics", " Lists of basic topics", and " List of glossaries" have been moved to the portal namespace, apparently because they are all lists of lists. I believe they are articles as defined by this list guideline. Wikipedia has many lists of lists, including Lists of mathematics topics, and they are all in clear violation of WP:ASR. Our guidelines need to be in agreement as to where lists and lists of lists belong so that their location remains stable and not subject to being moved by editors enforcing one guideline over another.
This contradiction needs to be removed by referring to the relevant passages of Wikipedia:Lists in WP:ASR, or by some other remedy, so that editors are aware of them, and to prevent conflicts between list builders and ASR enforcers.
The Transhumanist 06:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "[...] The Transhumanist's [...] project" (quoted from above): nobody seems to be worried about the WP:OWN implications of such assertion. Could we sort this out first? Who owns which project? -- Francis Schonken 23:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I've spent an hour re-writing this, so hopefully it is clear and calm and concise enough for everyone. Thoughts? -- Quiddity 03:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
It occurred to me that this might be possible, even if not necessarily a good idea. What are your thoughts on the benefits and drawbacks of this?-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Index Lists, a complex issue which I've tried to summarize. It concerns pages in mainspace like List of timelines, List of basic mathematics topics, and List of film topics. Its scope is currently a few hundred pages, and potentially a few thousand pages. Feedback would be appreciated. -- Quiddity ( talk) 19:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Say a list is broken out of a main article. such as List of low-cost carriers. Is it realistic to expect the list article has to prove WP:N completely independently of the article on low-cost carriers, Or is the notability assumed or inherited from the main article? (Or some middle-ground, like a lower notability threshold if the main article sufficiently asserts notability?) If it has to be proved, how would you do it in an article like that? Torc2 ( talk) 21:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
What is the preferred length for a list? I know that for prose articles its usually best to split up large articles if they become difficult to work with. Does the same hold true for lists? For example, List_of_fictional_United_States_Presidents is a huge list >170 kb in length. I have suggested splitting it up by various sections of the alphabet. But some others do not agree citing other examples of lists being split up resulting in bad lists. Is there any consensus or precedent on this? will381796 21:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
On a related note, there is the ongoing project that resulted in this Afd: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Philippine_actresses. I think there needs to be some sort if method for splitting such lists or some sort of size limit for lists...can you imagine what a list of Bollywood or American actors would look like? -- Kickstart70 T C 01:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cities in Germany starting with S and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of rivers of India for more examples of the gross abuse of these List guidelines by deletionists who seem to never waver in their attempts to delete lists. These deletion attempts might be better treated as vandal blanking than anything else; they just waste time of editors who would otherwise be trying to improve WP. Could improvements be made in the List Guidelines to stomp on such attempts faster and easier? Hmains 05:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it makes sense to do some surgery to this page: basically moving all of the content that applies only to stand-alone lists to Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists), and all of the content that applies only to embedded lists to Wikipedia:Lists (embedded lists). What would be left is only the material that applies to both (like the section on how to format lists), as well as an intro. that distinguishes between the two list types and directs the reader to either page as appropriate. Thoughts/reactions? UnitedStatesian ( talk) 17:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Hey. First off, my apologies if this is posted in the wrong place. There's been a sizable edit war going on over at Talk:List of Cuban Americans between two editors regarding the inclusion of non-notable names, and adding people multiple times (e.g. adding a director/actor into the sections on directing and acting). I gave a third opinion there, but it doesn't seem to have quelled the fires. Is there a way to get a ruling on this sort of thing based on Wikipedia policy? Can some people from here go over and comment on there? I'm just looking to put an end to their edit war, so really any sort of advice would be helpful. Thanks! — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 04:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
In a previous section I saw a discussion about moving lists to various spaces. I think discussions about lists should be here, not buried in obscure village pump pages, user pages, notice boards, etc.. This is the talk page for list guidelines and decisions.
There shouldn't be votes taken from obscure discussions. I am against anything that lessens the access of lists to more readers. Otherwise the lists will not be maintained well. It takes a lot of drive-by editors from the hundreds of millions of wikipedia readers to keep up the millions of wikipedia pages and lists. Especially lists.
I also discuss things more here:
In many lists some fanatic spam-fighters are destroying longstanding wikipedia lists by deleting the vast majority of list entries on list pages because many of the list entries use primary sourcing.
Why are lists treated any differently from articles? In articles the topic must be notable. But every fact in the article does not have to be notable. Many facts in articles are not notable. The individual facts in articles often come from info buried in obscure journals, and are hardly notable in themselves.
Some info isn't referenced at all, since it is self-evident. Wikipedia requires sourcing for info that is not self-evident. Primary sourcing is acceptable for some uncontroversial info. Many list entries are uncontroversial. The primary sourcing is all that is needed. Spam fighters delete the primary sourcing, and then say the list entry is not sourced. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 15:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
A single link.
Instead of some fanatic spam fighters destroying many longstanding wikipedia pages in their efforts to block single links for list entries on a list page, they should solve the main problem of spam in the external links sections of articles. That is where multiple spam links are added. See my discussion at
I point out there that the simple solution is to push for the elimination of the right of unregistered users to add links to the external links sections of articles. That is where the vast majority of multiple linking occurs.
A single primary-source link is used for a list entry without a separate wikipedia page. It is the same single primary-source link used on separate blue-linked pages put on lists. Either way it is still only one link total to the primary source.
A single link. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 15:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)