This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Manual of Style/France- and French-related articles page. |
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Manual of Style | ||||||||||
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For 52 pages which may need renaming after these discussions, see Talk:Gare de Granville (Manche)#Requested move 2 June 2020. |
The standard ( here) differs from the pattern used for all other railway stations, and is widely disregarded for French stations. I therefore propose a revised standard, more in line with practices for other countries.
Comments please. Colonies Chris ( talk) 15:26, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
I agree that "railway station" would be a better choice, and would in line with most other European articles. It's probably the best translation for British English, moreso than "x station" which is in use in North American articles but reflects American English usage. A few weeks ago I drafted a proposed naming convention that would unify the disparate mostly-informal standards in use: User:Mackensen/Naming conventions (railway stations in Europe). You can see from the talk page that "x railway station" is by far the most common usage; prior to the recent change in French stations (including Monaco), Germany was the only other country using "x station", which is inconsistent with the other German-speaking countries. Mackensen (talk) 13:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
The articles are now back to "X station". Shall we leave them there, or does anyone oppose the current titles strongly enough to continue the discussion? Certes ( talk) 22:56, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm fine just leaving them as "X station" for the mass majority of the stations. i just came across this so the only thing that i'd add to the guidelines is that railway halt's should be title "X halt" instead of x station as in french they'd be refered to as "Halte de X" see Aguilcourt-Variscourt halt as an example. don't know if it is worth adding a fifth guideline to the naming conventions or not. Epluribusunumyall ( talk) 08:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I think there's a good deal to be said for the French articles to be internally consistent and consistent with articles in naming countries, which would point towards a gradual move to "x railway station" for main line articles. To respond to Epluribusunumyall ( talk · contribs)'s point, I'm not a huge fan of distinguishing halts from stations as part of the article title. English, by and large, doesn't do this, and unless the sources are absolutely consistent there's going to be a lot ambiguity in titles. Mackensen (talk) 12:08, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I've noted that a multitude of French railway-station articles have been established with obviously wrong features. It's a great pity they weren't done with regard to en.WP's style guide: please no French flag in the infobox; "located" is used without purpose; common terms are wrongly linked; "high-speed" lacks the hyphen; and range dashes are wrongly open rather than closed. Sigh. Tony (talk) 08:36, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Following on the above discussions, I propose that articles on tram stops follow the format "X tram stop." This matches the usage in the UK and is a natural disambiguator. I'm aware of the 52 articles in Category:Tramway de Bordeaux; there may be others. Mackensen (talk) 23:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
At MOS:FRENCHCAPS, our "do it this way – except if you really want to you can do it this other way as long as it's about opera or paintings" mangled pseudo-rule has been based on an early-2000s decision, in turn based on a 1993 book. In its current, 2017 edition, that book, The Chicago Manual of Style, no longer recommends what our page said it recommends, but instead presents both of the systems we do and just says to use one or the other consistently. (There's a third, "capitalize important words" system, that appears to be based on English. Some French fiction titles seem to be done that way on their covers, but I can't find any French or English style guide recommending it.) In Wikipedia's early days, the CMoS sentence-case system was also followed by some major English-language reference works, for instance then-recent editions of New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, New Grove Dictionary of Opera, The Oxford Dictionary of Opera, and The Viking Opera Guide; however, new editions of such works have not been checked in this regard in over a decade. But we probably do not need to care if some of them do this still; WP is not written to the style guides of external publishers, but to our own. And our guidelines are not in a position to directly conflict with policies, like WP:CONSISTENT, anyway.
That is, this MoS page has been carving out an exception to MOS:TITLES and MOS:FOREIGN for a shaky reason to begin with, and that reason evaporated three years ago (if not sooner; I didn't check the 15th and 16th editions of CMoS). The very fact that this has had something to do with opera is a very bad sign, too. I can't think of any wikiproject that has spent more time at WP:RFARB than the opera and classical ones, being admonished by ArbCom that WP:CONLEVEL policy does not permit wikiprojects or any other small group of editors to make up their own rules against site-wide ones. WP:MOSCREEPing such an anti-rule into MOS:FRANCE, a page hardly anyone watchlists, is not cool. (Oh, it actually gets worse: WikiProject Opera has put up a WP:PROJPAGE essay at WP:OPERATITLE that effectively defies both the MOS:FOREIGNTITLE guideline and WP:COMMONNAME policy, in favor of mimicking what some off-site style guide does. That's a total CONLEVEL failure.)
I therefore propose that only the first system (the Imprimerie nationale / Académie Française method) be preserved in this guideline. It is also favored by Le Petit Robert, Le Quid, and L'Dictionnaire de citations françaises, etc., and can be found in English-language advice on writing French works' titles, like current MLA style (summarized on this point here by Dickinson College), and Oxford University Press style [1]. Using one system – the best-accepted one – will reduce WP:CREEP (MOSCREEP in particular), will prevent titling conflicts (even the permissiveness of the old CMoS style for arts topics was not a requirement to use it for them, and has always resulted in unnecessary strife), will produce improved compliance with WP:CONSISTENT policy, and otherwise will be beneficial.
PS:
MOS:FOREIGNTITLE may need some textual massaging as well. It conflicts with
MOS:FOREIGN,
MOS:TM,
MOS:CAPS, etc., in suggesting to imitate book/album/etc. covers and marketing, when it should say (and I'm pretty sure it used to say) to follow the orthography of the non-English language.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
07:07, 14 December 2020 (UTC); rev'd. 08:16, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
In direct quotations, retain [...] capitalization. This does not conflict with WP:COMMONNAME, because reliability in one dimension, like film criticism, does not automatically transfer to other dimensions, like foreign-language orthography. As DFlhb has pointed out, that English sources introduce these variants cannot prima facie be assumed to have a better reason than incompetence. Or maybe deadlines? Paradoctor ( talk) 19:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:MOSFR seems to be missing any guidance (or even mention) of the most glaring stylistic difference between English and French Wikipedias: the hyphenation of compound first names. In French, we see a lot of compound first names; on the English Wikipedia they generally (or at least frequently) are split into two unhyphenated names.
Personally I think the current style (the gratuitous splitting in two) is misleading and goes against the principle of minimal change. There are probably some people known by significantly different names in English versus French, and English Wikipedia should use the "English name" in such cases — but I don't think that names should be "Anglicized" simply by removing hyphens, because that doesn't do anything to decrease confusion, and in fact increases my own confusion about what the person's name actually is!
Could any experienced Wikipedian summarize English Wikipedia's current style for names-that-are-hyphenated-in-French?
Would there be appetite to change the current style to prefer keeping the hyphens — and then rename the above English Wikipedia articles? -- Quuxplusone ( talk) 12:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Académie Française is named the same in English and French, modulo MOS:FRENCHCAPS (which is maybe ill-advised too, but); I'm not interested in capitalization in this particular Talk section. I'm only interested in hyphenation. Re: whether the lack of hyphen is really "current style," you're right, most English pages match the French hyphenation; I notice only when it's gratuitously different.
When the French title starts with... | The distribution of English titles is... | When the French title starts with... | The distribution of English titles is... |
---|---|---|---|
Jean-Alphonse | 1 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Antoine | 22 to 3 hyphenated | Jean Antoine | 5 to 3 unhyphenated |
Jean-Auguste | 1 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Auguste | 3 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Baptiste | 457 to 43 hyphenated | Jean Baptiste | 20 to 7 unhyphenated |
Jean-Bernard | 15 to 2 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Bosco | 0 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Bosco | 2 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean Camille | 1 to 1 unhyphenated | ||
Jean-Charles | 62 to 4 hyphenated | Jean Charles | 5 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Claude | 253 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Claude | 1 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Denis | 8 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Manuel | 2 to 0 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Ernest | 1 to 0 hyphenated | Jean Ernest | 1 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean-Eudes | 3 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Georges | 6 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Guillaume | 2 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Guillaume | 3 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Gustave | 1 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Henri | 13 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Henri | 5 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Jacques | 186 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Jacques | 5 to 3 unhyphenated |
Jean-Joseph | 42 to 4 hyphenated | Jean Joseph | 8 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Jules | 2 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Jules | 3 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Julien | 3 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Julien | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Louis | 225 to 8 hyphenated | Jean Louis | 5 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Marc | 112 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Marc | 0 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean-Marie | 173 to 4 hyphenated | Jean Marie | 7 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Mathieu | 0 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Mathieu | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Michel | 131 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Michel | 4 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Nicolas | 17 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Nicolas | 3 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Paul | 187 to 6 hyphenated | Jean Paul | 7 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Philippe | 71 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Philippe | 2 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean-Pierre | 408 to 6 hyphenated | Jean Pierre | 9 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean-Raymond | 3 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Robert | 6 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Robert | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Rodolphe | 2 to 0 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Serge | 1 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Thomas | 4 to 0 hyphenated | Jean Thomas | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Victor | 7 to 4 hyphenated | Jean Victor | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Vincent | 4 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Vincent | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Yves | 59 to 1 hyphenated |
When the French title starts with... | The distribution of English titles is... | When the French title starts with... | The distribution of English titles is... |
---|---|---|---|
Marie-Alphonse | 1 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Anne | 28 to 14 hyphenated | Marie Anne | 2 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Antoinette | 6 to 3 hyphenated | Marie Antoinette | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Catherine | 5 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Charlotte | 3 to 2 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Christine | 20 to 1 hyphenated | Marie Christine | 0 to 1 unhyphenated |
Marie-Claire | 17 to 2 hyphenated | Marie Claire | 3 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Jeanne | 8 to 2 hyphenated | Marie Jeanne | 2 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Julie | 3 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Laure | 12 to 2 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Louise | 45 to 11 hyphenated | Marie Louise | 3 to 1 unhyphenated |
Marie-Magdeleine | 1 to 0 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Madeleine | 13 to 2 hyphenated | Marie Madeleine | 4 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Rose | 6 to 1 hyphenated | Marie Rose | 2 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie Solange | 1 to 1 unhyphenated | ||
Marie-Sophie | 3 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Victoire | 4 to 1 hyphenated |
So perhaps the current style should be documented as "use a hyphen if the French has one," which is what I'm hoping for anyway? Finally, observe that there are a few cases of the reverse, tallied in the rightmost columns of those collapsible tables above. E.g. fr:Jean Claude Nicolas Forestier maps to en:Jean-Claude Nicolas Forestier, fr:Jean Nicolas Sébastien Allamand maps to en:Jean-Nicolas-Sébastien Allamand. But I think we should rename those English pages to match the French. There are only a few places (e.g. fr:Jean-Manuel_Nédra) where it seems to me that the French page's title is incorrect. -- Quuxplusone ( talk) 19:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
I wrote a Python script ( [3]) to collect pages that would be candidates for this mass-move. There were about 500 (and I'm sure people can suggest given names that I failed to check). Rather than go straight to WP:RM, I've opened a new discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Requested_moves#Adding_hyphens_to_French_personal_names so that someone with more technical expertise can tell me what's the best way to go about organizing/discussing/canvassing such a mass-move. -- Quuxplusone ( talk) 19:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Are French places like Vic-sur-Aisne or Vic-en-Bigorre recognizable as just Vic? Would appreciate some help from people in the know, at Talk:Vic#French places. TIA. -- Joy ( talk) 14:21, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Manual of Style/France- and French-related articles page. |
|
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
Manual of Style | ||||||||||
|
For 52 pages which may need renaming after these discussions, see Talk:Gare de Granville (Manche)#Requested move 2 June 2020. |
The standard ( here) differs from the pattern used for all other railway stations, and is widely disregarded for French stations. I therefore propose a revised standard, more in line with practices for other countries.
Comments please. Colonies Chris ( talk) 15:26, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
I agree that "railway station" would be a better choice, and would in line with most other European articles. It's probably the best translation for British English, moreso than "x station" which is in use in North American articles but reflects American English usage. A few weeks ago I drafted a proposed naming convention that would unify the disparate mostly-informal standards in use: User:Mackensen/Naming conventions (railway stations in Europe). You can see from the talk page that "x railway station" is by far the most common usage; prior to the recent change in French stations (including Monaco), Germany was the only other country using "x station", which is inconsistent with the other German-speaking countries. Mackensen (talk) 13:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
The articles are now back to "X station". Shall we leave them there, or does anyone oppose the current titles strongly enough to continue the discussion? Certes ( talk) 22:56, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm fine just leaving them as "X station" for the mass majority of the stations. i just came across this so the only thing that i'd add to the guidelines is that railway halt's should be title "X halt" instead of x station as in french they'd be refered to as "Halte de X" see Aguilcourt-Variscourt halt as an example. don't know if it is worth adding a fifth guideline to the naming conventions or not. Epluribusunumyall ( talk) 08:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I think there's a good deal to be said for the French articles to be internally consistent and consistent with articles in naming countries, which would point towards a gradual move to "x railway station" for main line articles. To respond to Epluribusunumyall ( talk · contribs)'s point, I'm not a huge fan of distinguishing halts from stations as part of the article title. English, by and large, doesn't do this, and unless the sources are absolutely consistent there's going to be a lot ambiguity in titles. Mackensen (talk) 12:08, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
I've noted that a multitude of French railway-station articles have been established with obviously wrong features. It's a great pity they weren't done with regard to en.WP's style guide: please no French flag in the infobox; "located" is used without purpose; common terms are wrongly linked; "high-speed" lacks the hyphen; and range dashes are wrongly open rather than closed. Sigh. Tony (talk) 08:36, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Following on the above discussions, I propose that articles on tram stops follow the format "X tram stop." This matches the usage in the UK and is a natural disambiguator. I'm aware of the 52 articles in Category:Tramway de Bordeaux; there may be others. Mackensen (talk) 23:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
At MOS:FRENCHCAPS, our "do it this way – except if you really want to you can do it this other way as long as it's about opera or paintings" mangled pseudo-rule has been based on an early-2000s decision, in turn based on a 1993 book. In its current, 2017 edition, that book, The Chicago Manual of Style, no longer recommends what our page said it recommends, but instead presents both of the systems we do and just says to use one or the other consistently. (There's a third, "capitalize important words" system, that appears to be based on English. Some French fiction titles seem to be done that way on their covers, but I can't find any French or English style guide recommending it.) In Wikipedia's early days, the CMoS sentence-case system was also followed by some major English-language reference works, for instance then-recent editions of New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, New Grove Dictionary of Opera, The Oxford Dictionary of Opera, and The Viking Opera Guide; however, new editions of such works have not been checked in this regard in over a decade. But we probably do not need to care if some of them do this still; WP is not written to the style guides of external publishers, but to our own. And our guidelines are not in a position to directly conflict with policies, like WP:CONSISTENT, anyway.
That is, this MoS page has been carving out an exception to MOS:TITLES and MOS:FOREIGN for a shaky reason to begin with, and that reason evaporated three years ago (if not sooner; I didn't check the 15th and 16th editions of CMoS). The very fact that this has had something to do with opera is a very bad sign, too. I can't think of any wikiproject that has spent more time at WP:RFARB than the opera and classical ones, being admonished by ArbCom that WP:CONLEVEL policy does not permit wikiprojects or any other small group of editors to make up their own rules against site-wide ones. WP:MOSCREEPing such an anti-rule into MOS:FRANCE, a page hardly anyone watchlists, is not cool. (Oh, it actually gets worse: WikiProject Opera has put up a WP:PROJPAGE essay at WP:OPERATITLE that effectively defies both the MOS:FOREIGNTITLE guideline and WP:COMMONNAME policy, in favor of mimicking what some off-site style guide does. That's a total CONLEVEL failure.)
I therefore propose that only the first system (the Imprimerie nationale / Académie Française method) be preserved in this guideline. It is also favored by Le Petit Robert, Le Quid, and L'Dictionnaire de citations françaises, etc., and can be found in English-language advice on writing French works' titles, like current MLA style (summarized on this point here by Dickinson College), and Oxford University Press style [1]. Using one system – the best-accepted one – will reduce WP:CREEP (MOSCREEP in particular), will prevent titling conflicts (even the permissiveness of the old CMoS style for arts topics was not a requirement to use it for them, and has always resulted in unnecessary strife), will produce improved compliance with WP:CONSISTENT policy, and otherwise will be beneficial.
PS:
MOS:FOREIGNTITLE may need some textual massaging as well. It conflicts with
MOS:FOREIGN,
MOS:TM,
MOS:CAPS, etc., in suggesting to imitate book/album/etc. covers and marketing, when it should say (and I'm pretty sure it used to say) to follow the orthography of the non-English language.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼
07:07, 14 December 2020 (UTC); rev'd. 08:16, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
In direct quotations, retain [...] capitalization. This does not conflict with WP:COMMONNAME, because reliability in one dimension, like film criticism, does not automatically transfer to other dimensions, like foreign-language orthography. As DFlhb has pointed out, that English sources introduce these variants cannot prima facie be assumed to have a better reason than incompetence. Or maybe deadlines? Paradoctor ( talk) 19:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
WP:MOSFR seems to be missing any guidance (or even mention) of the most glaring stylistic difference between English and French Wikipedias: the hyphenation of compound first names. In French, we see a lot of compound first names; on the English Wikipedia they generally (or at least frequently) are split into two unhyphenated names.
Personally I think the current style (the gratuitous splitting in two) is misleading and goes against the principle of minimal change. There are probably some people known by significantly different names in English versus French, and English Wikipedia should use the "English name" in such cases — but I don't think that names should be "Anglicized" simply by removing hyphens, because that doesn't do anything to decrease confusion, and in fact increases my own confusion about what the person's name actually is!
Could any experienced Wikipedian summarize English Wikipedia's current style for names-that-are-hyphenated-in-French?
Would there be appetite to change the current style to prefer keeping the hyphens — and then rename the above English Wikipedia articles? -- Quuxplusone ( talk) 12:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Académie Française is named the same in English and French, modulo MOS:FRENCHCAPS (which is maybe ill-advised too, but); I'm not interested in capitalization in this particular Talk section. I'm only interested in hyphenation. Re: whether the lack of hyphen is really "current style," you're right, most English pages match the French hyphenation; I notice only when it's gratuitously different.
When the French title starts with... | The distribution of English titles is... | When the French title starts with... | The distribution of English titles is... |
---|---|---|---|
Jean-Alphonse | 1 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Antoine | 22 to 3 hyphenated | Jean Antoine | 5 to 3 unhyphenated |
Jean-Auguste | 1 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Auguste | 3 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Baptiste | 457 to 43 hyphenated | Jean Baptiste | 20 to 7 unhyphenated |
Jean-Bernard | 15 to 2 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Bosco | 0 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Bosco | 2 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean Camille | 1 to 1 unhyphenated | ||
Jean-Charles | 62 to 4 hyphenated | Jean Charles | 5 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Claude | 253 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Claude | 1 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Denis | 8 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Manuel | 2 to 0 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Ernest | 1 to 0 hyphenated | Jean Ernest | 1 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean-Eudes | 3 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Georges | 6 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Guillaume | 2 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Guillaume | 3 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Gustave | 1 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Henri | 13 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Henri | 5 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Jacques | 186 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Jacques | 5 to 3 unhyphenated |
Jean-Joseph | 42 to 4 hyphenated | Jean Joseph | 8 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Jules | 2 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Jules | 3 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Julien | 3 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Julien | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Louis | 225 to 8 hyphenated | Jean Louis | 5 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Marc | 112 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Marc | 0 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean-Marie | 173 to 4 hyphenated | Jean Marie | 7 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Mathieu | 0 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Mathieu | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Michel | 131 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Michel | 4 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Nicolas | 17 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Nicolas | 3 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Paul | 187 to 6 hyphenated | Jean Paul | 7 to 2 unhyphenated |
Jean-Philippe | 71 to 2 hyphenated | Jean Philippe | 2 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean-Pierre | 408 to 6 hyphenated | Jean Pierre | 9 to 1 unhyphenated |
Jean-Raymond | 3 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Robert | 6 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Robert | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Rodolphe | 2 to 0 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Serge | 1 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Jean-Thomas | 4 to 0 hyphenated | Jean Thomas | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Victor | 7 to 4 hyphenated | Jean Victor | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Vincent | 4 to 1 hyphenated | Jean Vincent | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Jean-Yves | 59 to 1 hyphenated |
When the French title starts with... | The distribution of English titles is... | When the French title starts with... | The distribution of English titles is... |
---|---|---|---|
Marie-Alphonse | 1 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Anne | 28 to 14 hyphenated | Marie Anne | 2 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Antoinette | 6 to 3 hyphenated | Marie Antoinette | 1 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Catherine | 5 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Charlotte | 3 to 2 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Christine | 20 to 1 hyphenated | Marie Christine | 0 to 1 unhyphenated |
Marie-Claire | 17 to 2 hyphenated | Marie Claire | 3 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Jeanne | 8 to 2 hyphenated | Marie Jeanne | 2 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Julie | 3 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Laure | 12 to 2 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Louise | 45 to 11 hyphenated | Marie Louise | 3 to 1 unhyphenated |
Marie-Magdeleine | 1 to 0 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Madeleine | 13 to 2 hyphenated | Marie Madeleine | 4 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie-Rose | 6 to 1 hyphenated | Marie Rose | 2 to 0 unhyphenated |
Marie Solange | 1 to 1 unhyphenated | ||
Marie-Sophie | 3 to 1 hyphenated | ||
Marie-Victoire | 4 to 1 hyphenated |
So perhaps the current style should be documented as "use a hyphen if the French has one," which is what I'm hoping for anyway? Finally, observe that there are a few cases of the reverse, tallied in the rightmost columns of those collapsible tables above. E.g. fr:Jean Claude Nicolas Forestier maps to en:Jean-Claude Nicolas Forestier, fr:Jean Nicolas Sébastien Allamand maps to en:Jean-Nicolas-Sébastien Allamand. But I think we should rename those English pages to match the French. There are only a few places (e.g. fr:Jean-Manuel_Nédra) where it seems to me that the French page's title is incorrect. -- Quuxplusone ( talk) 19:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
I wrote a Python script ( [3]) to collect pages that would be candidates for this mass-move. There were about 500 (and I'm sure people can suggest given names that I failed to check). Rather than go straight to WP:RM, I've opened a new discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Requested_moves#Adding_hyphens_to_French_personal_names so that someone with more technical expertise can tell me what's the best way to go about organizing/discussing/canvassing such a mass-move. -- Quuxplusone ( talk) 19:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Are French places like Vic-sur-Aisne or Vic-en-Bigorre recognizable as just Vic? Would appreciate some help from people in the know, at Talk:Vic#French places. TIA. -- Joy ( talk) 14:21, 19 June 2024 (UTC)