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[comment moved from talk:Bobblewik] Hi, can you stop making edits which just unwikify stuff such as dates, having the dates linked is very useful and I can't see how the articles are improving by removing the date wikilinks. Thanks, Talrias ( t | e | c) 22:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
The trouble I'm having with all of this is that "overlinking" is so very obviously in the eye of the beholder, and is thus such a very nebulous justification for removing every wikilinked year in every article on Wikipedia. We're talking about going through every article on Wikipedia and enforcing an aesthetic preference. Does that not strike anyone else as being just a smidge over the top? Especially given that recent ArbCom precdents make it quite plain that the Manual of Style is not "policy" and editors may deviate from it with good reason? And given that Template:Mos4 is up for deletion because it claims that the Manual of Style is mandatory, in contravention of both recent ArbCom precdents and the introductory text of the Manual of Style itself?
I have found wikilinked years (and related items, like "18th century", "1980s," et al) within articles to be enjoyable, useful, and edifying in my time here at Wikipedia, both as a casual reader and as an active editor. The year articles are often fun to read purely for the sake of learning trivia, and can be quite useful in putting history in context. The usefulness provided to me by wikilinked years is therefore a "good reason" to deviate from the Manual of Style, as provided for by the recent ArbCom precdents.
Given these facts, I propose that the drive to mass-purge Wikipedia of all wikilinked years be abandoned. If individual articles such as Thomas Jefferson become problematic, then address those articles individually.
All the best.
Ξxtreme Unction|
yakkity yak 09:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I think the entire argument boils down to whether having a link is more useful than not having a link. The core argument for having a link is that context can be gotten from the link (for example, you can see what else happened in that year), and the argument for removing them seems to be "it's for aesthetical reasons". It should be crystal clear to everyone that aesthetical reasons are subjective to the individual, but providing contextual links is going to useful to everyone. Why should someone's personal style crusade get in the way of the readers' desire for context? Talrias ( t | e | c) 15:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I would say that the discussion is boiled down to 0%---50%---100% scale, where some say that minimal amount of wikilinked dates is OK (= MoS), or on the other end all dates to be wikified. People seem to argue that something in between should be accepted (personal preference), not a categorical acceptance of the Manual of Style (i.e. Mos=OK; personal preference = ~OK, but not preferable). But not one is proposing (seriously) to wikify all words or all dates in an article. Some people are also opposing the idea of letting a bot to do these changes. feydey 03:13, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
One of the issues is that part of the point of linking is to be able to find events by period (date, year, century, at least) for overview articles on those subjects. I have expanded year articles using this method. It seems clear that not all years should be linked, but using "scare words" like "This is an important point:" (a ghastly rhetorical construct in its own right) and requiring a "strong reason" is out of scale with the tiny benefit afforded by not linking dates. I suggest revising the language to soften it--let's still ask for a reason but it need not be a "prohibition". And no more mass-unwikifying. Demi T/ C 19:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
This hasn't been mentioned on this page before, but it was listed at wikipedia:current surveys, village pump, etc... some months ago. In the mean while several suggestions were incorporated, and others answered at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (numbers and dates).
So, proposing the updated Wikipedia:Naming conventions (numbers and dates), to be accepted as guideline in a week or so - unless there are still fundamental alterations required.
Note that this guideline proposal absorbs wikipedia:naming conventions (years in titles) (which would become a redirect). Also this is about the last wikipedia:naming conventions topic that doesn't have a "naming conventions" guideline yet, separate from the more general MoS, which doesn't discuss many "page naming" specifics. -- Francis Schonken 21:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Just like some people insert links to solitary years and dates, as discussed above, the same happens to numbers. What could possibly be the value of linking a number like 89. It clutters up the appearance of the article, and even more its edit view. − Woodstone 10:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
All of them (and the ones to most other numbers). −[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]] 12:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
No need to be condescending. Linking is encouraged only in cases it adds value to the article. I fail to see how linking just an arbitrary number that appears in an article adds value for the reader. How would a user profit from a link in, say, highway 89 to the number 89? − Woodstone 12:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I concede that "all" was written too rashly, I should have said "most". But you are sidestepping. I'm not talking about number 89, but numbers in general. In many articles a number occurs (as an amount, a count, a value, a name) and is linked to the number. Those cases are irrelevant for the user. Even in the example you give, 88 linking to 89 might be defensible, but also each of 81-87 link to 89 (just because they are in a range of ten from it); that I call excessive. − Woodstone 13:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The style of Eras should be changed to distictly prefer BCE and CE considering they are the more appropriate abbreviations for an encyclopedia. Scholarly works have long since changed to the Common Era format as well as many other publications. If Wikipedia wishes to be concidered more than an slightly reliable webpage then it should act the part. David618 20:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Recent discussions about date links makes it clear that some editors believe that the Manual of Style is not sufficiently clear.
Disputes have been quite intense and unproductive. I propose that we debate updates to the Manual of Style. For example:
etc. As I understand it, these are the sort of examples where some editors think linking is essential. I do not fully understand the guidelines that they want (which is why I am calling for the update). Please correct this if I am wrong. Bobblewik 19:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I have been told Wikipedia does not support locale number formatting. Although I can understand why (english wiki ~ english user, <language X> wiki ~ <language X> user), I believe it could be useful to add a markup to use locale formatting on numbers. Do you think it's a real issue? MaxDZ8 18:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Kdammers 03:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Proposed solution:
Local settings in preferences for number display determines whether the user sees,
-SM 13:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
The last two should of course not change the precision and read:
− Woodstone 13:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | → | Archive 40 |
[comment moved from talk:Bobblewik] Hi, can you stop making edits which just unwikify stuff such as dates, having the dates linked is very useful and I can't see how the articles are improving by removing the date wikilinks. Thanks, Talrias ( t | e | c) 22:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
The trouble I'm having with all of this is that "overlinking" is so very obviously in the eye of the beholder, and is thus such a very nebulous justification for removing every wikilinked year in every article on Wikipedia. We're talking about going through every article on Wikipedia and enforcing an aesthetic preference. Does that not strike anyone else as being just a smidge over the top? Especially given that recent ArbCom precdents make it quite plain that the Manual of Style is not "policy" and editors may deviate from it with good reason? And given that Template:Mos4 is up for deletion because it claims that the Manual of Style is mandatory, in contravention of both recent ArbCom precdents and the introductory text of the Manual of Style itself?
I have found wikilinked years (and related items, like "18th century", "1980s," et al) within articles to be enjoyable, useful, and edifying in my time here at Wikipedia, both as a casual reader and as an active editor. The year articles are often fun to read purely for the sake of learning trivia, and can be quite useful in putting history in context. The usefulness provided to me by wikilinked years is therefore a "good reason" to deviate from the Manual of Style, as provided for by the recent ArbCom precdents.
Given these facts, I propose that the drive to mass-purge Wikipedia of all wikilinked years be abandoned. If individual articles such as Thomas Jefferson become problematic, then address those articles individually.
All the best.
Ξxtreme Unction|
yakkity yak 09:27, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I think the entire argument boils down to whether having a link is more useful than not having a link. The core argument for having a link is that context can be gotten from the link (for example, you can see what else happened in that year), and the argument for removing them seems to be "it's for aesthetical reasons". It should be crystal clear to everyone that aesthetical reasons are subjective to the individual, but providing contextual links is going to useful to everyone. Why should someone's personal style crusade get in the way of the readers' desire for context? Talrias ( t | e | c) 15:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I would say that the discussion is boiled down to 0%---50%---100% scale, where some say that minimal amount of wikilinked dates is OK (= MoS), or on the other end all dates to be wikified. People seem to argue that something in between should be accepted (personal preference), not a categorical acceptance of the Manual of Style (i.e. Mos=OK; personal preference = ~OK, but not preferable). But not one is proposing (seriously) to wikify all words or all dates in an article. Some people are also opposing the idea of letting a bot to do these changes. feydey 03:13, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
One of the issues is that part of the point of linking is to be able to find events by period (date, year, century, at least) for overview articles on those subjects. I have expanded year articles using this method. It seems clear that not all years should be linked, but using "scare words" like "This is an important point:" (a ghastly rhetorical construct in its own right) and requiring a "strong reason" is out of scale with the tiny benefit afforded by not linking dates. I suggest revising the language to soften it--let's still ask for a reason but it need not be a "prohibition". And no more mass-unwikifying. Demi T/ C 19:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
This hasn't been mentioned on this page before, but it was listed at wikipedia:current surveys, village pump, etc... some months ago. In the mean while several suggestions were incorporated, and others answered at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (numbers and dates).
So, proposing the updated Wikipedia:Naming conventions (numbers and dates), to be accepted as guideline in a week or so - unless there are still fundamental alterations required.
Note that this guideline proposal absorbs wikipedia:naming conventions (years in titles) (which would become a redirect). Also this is about the last wikipedia:naming conventions topic that doesn't have a "naming conventions" guideline yet, separate from the more general MoS, which doesn't discuss many "page naming" specifics. -- Francis Schonken 21:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Just like some people insert links to solitary years and dates, as discussed above, the same happens to numbers. What could possibly be the value of linking a number like 89. It clutters up the appearance of the article, and even more its edit view. − Woodstone 10:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
All of them (and the ones to most other numbers). −[User:Woodstone|Woodstone]] 12:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
No need to be condescending. Linking is encouraged only in cases it adds value to the article. I fail to see how linking just an arbitrary number that appears in an article adds value for the reader. How would a user profit from a link in, say, highway 89 to the number 89? − Woodstone 12:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I concede that "all" was written too rashly, I should have said "most". But you are sidestepping. I'm not talking about number 89, but numbers in general. In many articles a number occurs (as an amount, a count, a value, a name) and is linked to the number. Those cases are irrelevant for the user. Even in the example you give, 88 linking to 89 might be defensible, but also each of 81-87 link to 89 (just because they are in a range of ten from it); that I call excessive. − Woodstone 13:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The style of Eras should be changed to distictly prefer BCE and CE considering they are the more appropriate abbreviations for an encyclopedia. Scholarly works have long since changed to the Common Era format as well as many other publications. If Wikipedia wishes to be concidered more than an slightly reliable webpage then it should act the part. David618 20:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Recent discussions about date links makes it clear that some editors believe that the Manual of Style is not sufficiently clear.
Disputes have been quite intense and unproductive. I propose that we debate updates to the Manual of Style. For example:
etc. As I understand it, these are the sort of examples where some editors think linking is essential. I do not fully understand the guidelines that they want (which is why I am calling for the update). Please correct this if I am wrong. Bobblewik 19:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I have been told Wikipedia does not support locale number formatting. Although I can understand why (english wiki ~ english user, <language X> wiki ~ <language X> user), I believe it could be useful to add a markup to use locale formatting on numbers. Do you think it's a real issue? MaxDZ8 18:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Kdammers 03:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Proposed solution:
Local settings in preferences for number display determines whether the user sees,
-SM 13:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
The last two should of course not change the precision and read:
− Woodstone 13:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)