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When I see a linked date in a web citation template, such as "|date= April 25, 2004|title=Incomprehensible Emphasis", I feel a strong urge to delink it. I am aware of the proscription of mass delinking of dates, but cannot begin to imagine how any reader can be helped by following the linked date of an article's publishing on the Web, or, even more absurdly, the linked date that some editor accessed that site. I sure hope I don't get into trouble by delinking these, because I fix a lot of articles for other reasons, so a lot of footnote dates might get delinked while I'm at it. Have I missed something? Does anyone have a good reason to keep these links? Chris the speller ( talk) 02:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Time of access (date) is useful for the purpose to evaluate if the source may have changed. Esp when the source may have an interest in "editing the past" .. Electron9 ( talk) 01:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I have started a community RFC about a proposal for a bot to unlink dates. Please see Wikipedia:Full-date unlinking bot and comment here. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 10:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that this line appears to be wrong: "negative values may be used in lieu of S and E"
It is my understanding that negative values are generally S and W.
If you agree could you please make the change.
203.206.170.6 ( talk) 02:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
SimonTrew ( talk) 17:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Editors may find this article offers some historical perspective. LeadSongDog come howl 18:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Could WP:DATEOTHER and/or WP:OTHERDATE possibly be redirected to Wikipedia:DATE#Other_date_ranges? Both are unused and would make correcting instances of "XXXX–present" that much less cumbersome. (If this has been discussed before, my apologies, but I could not find the discussion) DKqwerty ( talk) 21:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
How does one determine if an article has a "largely American readership"? And why should it matter? Nobody uses the small calorie for that purpose, and practically everybody uses kilocalories (and calls them "calories" in colloquial speech). (Using kilojoules is mandatory in many places including the EU, but producers will usually display them after kilocalories, as they are much less widely understood by the general public at least in Italy— YMMV.) -- A. di M. ( talk) 18:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
convert}}
talk page the ability to switch the output order, since obviously a lot of the time one is given a figure in, say, [kilo]calories and the rest of the article uses joules first, and to have to convert it to joules and then jiggle it back to get the calories one had in the first place rather confounds the point of convert doing the, er, conversion. However I do appreciate this may not be an easy change!
SimonTrew (
talk) 20:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Let's get back on topic. Do you agree that it'd be OK to throw away the sentence "For articles with a largely American readership, use the synonym dietary calorie(s) with a one-time link to kilogram calorie.", considering there's no easy way to find out where the readers of an article come for? -- A. di M. – 2009 Great Wikipedia Dramaout 10:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Why can't we allow ″ for the inch (and ′ for the foot)? It is more common that "in" in actual use, and it is explicitly allowed in Unicode's description of the character ("U+2033 DOUBLE PRIME = seconds, inches"). I guess it was done for the risk of confusion with the arc second, but I don't think that it's a plausible confusion, any more than "ft" can be confused with the femtotonne :-). -- A. di M. ( talk) 19:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
"
(").′
can interpret it how it sees fit (as it can for "
so I see no great difficulty there in worrying about browsers or fonts that do not interpret the sequence as the glyph you desire.
SimonTrew (
talk) 20:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
′
the same way as ′
(unless it's broken). The fact that fonts might have no glyph or a "wrong" glyph for that character is more serious. But how many fonts without a "decent" glyph for ″ and ′ are there? BTW, the same argument would also apply to the arc-minute and the arc-second, but we don't discourage using these characters for them. --
A. di M. (
talk) 21:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)But sometimes the second form can be useful, for example when numbers have vastly different magnitudes (e.g. "3000 nm – 1 mm" is generally better than "3–0.001 μm"). So I would rather say that the first style is generally preferable over the second, rather than outright banishing the second style.
I don't see the point of the last requirement. It goes against all the principles about the choice of units (spell out the first occurrence, after that prefer symbols if the name is long and/or the unit is used very often). Why isn't it OK to write "widgets range from 23 to 57 kilograms, whereas ding-dongs range from 95 to 182 kg"? -- A. di M. – 2009 Great Wikipedia Dramaout 14:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
{{convert|23|-|57|kg}}
produces 23–57 kilograms (51–126 lb) and {{convert|95|-|182|kg|abbr=on}}
produces 95–182 kg (209–401 lb). Not saying you're wrong; quite the opposite, that otherwise with conversion you'd end up with four units (two for the original and two for the conversion), which is pushing the reader's patience a bit in my opinion.
SimonTrew (
talk) 14:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC){{
convert}}
doesn't seem to do the spacing correctly according to WP:DATE, but Ill take that to its talk page. Nevertheless, I'll keep this here cos, unless you are better than me, there does seem to be some ambiguity – or at least difficulty meeting the requirements – when dealing with conversions, since {{
convert}}
only lets you have abbreviations for the destination unit (as far as I know), so that might be worth trying to clear up at the same time. Of course this is not a problem with the template as such, but that and this are so tightly wed, it makes sense for the two to march forward in lockstep.
SimonTrew (
talk) 15:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC){{
convert}}
is not specific to ranges, but is more general in that if the full name of the destination unit is used elsewhere in the article in its full form. This can happen if the article mixes units; something that is generally undesirable, but is desirable in some articles or sections which quote units from secondary sources (and then convert them). I already requested, some time ago, that it would be possible to surround the destination with square brackets for this purpose, to be able to use conversions in quotes; that has not been acted upon, but still stands on the "wish list", I believe.
SimonTrew (
talk) 15:22, 19 July 2009 (UTC)This has been brought up already, but I feel strongly that we should encourage use of "1996–present" instead of "since 1996".
Using "since 1996" is ambiguous because it can be interpreted to mean "since 1996 ended", i.e. starting from 1997, or "since a period within 1996". i.e. starting from 1996. Using "1996–present", however, is unambiguous in that the only interpretation that can be taken from this is "since a period within 1996".
I do not see any valid argument in that "the present" is a moving target. Sure it is, but if someone begins to be active in 1996, and is still active today, we will indicate "1996–present". If they stop being active in 2009, we will adjust to indicate "1996–2009". Please, can we revive this discussion?. — \`CRAZY`(lN)`SANE`/ ( talk • contribs) 10:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
The section "Longer periods" concludes:
I wonder if the expression reliable historians here is overly restrictive. I think more the message here is that the uncertainty is on the part of the (secondary) sources, which I suppose for our purposes here we must assume to be RS, rather than on historians particularly. Can I suggest, therefore reliable historians is replaced either with reliable sources or secondary sources?
Best wishes SimonTrew ( talk) 14:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
In the "Unit names and symbols" section it says:
(My bold). Can we change this to:
This just seems far more natural english to me. Perhaps the "unit" business sent the orignal author scurrying to the singular (and then pluralising it), but the second, to me, seems more natural and loses no meaning. To say "units names" is definitely erroneous (and, I imagine, just a typo): choose "Units' names, "Unit names", or "The names of units".
In article namespace I would tend to change this under WP:BOLD, but I think right to be very cautious here. If you think I should have just changed it, I should be pleased for your advice. SimonTrew ( talk) 15:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Not sure how relevant this is, and MOSNUM seems, probably rightly, to be silent on the matter: mixing units in dimensions (and as a specific example I give UK timber units).
It would seem, in general, to be desirable to encourage the units partaking in a multiple-dimension quantity (e.g. volume) to be the same. e.g. 1 metre (3 ft 3 in) × 3 metres (9.8 ft) × 6 metres (20 ft). MOSNUM does say that that is to be preferred, though obviously it is not always appropriate (e.g something that is very long but relatively thin, such as describing the volume of a transatlantic cable with a circular cross section by its length and its diameter). I admire MOSNUM's quetism here and trust to WP:COMMON, but I wonder if there should be a very gentle hint to use the same unit unless WP:COMMON overrules it.
With UK timber we have a somewhat more interesting problem. Lengths are given generally in metric, but widths and depths in imperial (e.g. 2m of four-by-two, i.e. four inches by two inches in cross section). Of course this is mixing units, and also to add to the fun, the four-by-two is nominal (and always was), since planing will make it less than four inches or two inches, and in any case it is nominally 100 mm by 50 mm, not four inches by two, but everyone knows it as four-by-two and it will be labelled as such (as a descriptive label; 100 mm × 50 mm will be on there somewhere). This is probably not very important in itself (as I say the four-by-two is more a nominal and descriptive label than a totally accurate measure) but I can probably imagine analagous cases where it might be.
The units section of MOSNUM is rather quiet on this, and perhaps rightly so, but it comes under the general head of not mixing units, which in this case is quite definitely the right thing to do.
Best wishes SimonTrew ( talk) 08:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I and another editor have a disagreement over the rule "Values and unit symbols are separated by a non-breaking space." We both agree that sometimes in a number/unit combination the number is a modifier of the unit (e.g. we have 12 hammers), while other times the number/unit combination is a compound modifying a third word (e.g. we have a 12 lb hammer).
I understand the MoS to require a non-breaking space in the second situation but not in the first. The other editor understands the MoS to require a non-breaking space in the first situation but not in the second. In the second situation, the other editor believes there should either be a hyphen or no space at all (e.g. 12-lb or 12lb) to convey the compound nature of the number/unit combination. (I have asked the other editor to comment here and hope they will correct me if I have misunderstood.)
The current wording of the MoS doesn't say anything about a distinction between these two situations. I'd like to get opinions here about what is intended. So, other's thoughts on this disagreement? Lyrl Talk C 22:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm often seeing 1/3rd, 1/4th, 1/5th, 1/6th, ... I wonder whether this is worth a mention. JIMp talk· cont 18:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Is converting prose descriptions of approximate distances to numeric measurements in line with this page's guidance? A specific example is this edit. I understand the impulse here, and the new text is certainly not incorrect, but it seems to change the tone of the prose. Powers T 13:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, everyone. I've changed some of the {{ convert}}s back to prose but added metric conversions as appropriate. Powers T 12:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Why not have a bot to unlink dates, since that is the policy? Is it because a few should be linked and the bot can't decide which to keep? Bubba73 (talk), 19:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
In reference to Archive 106, Question on #1 vs number one, should there be a section in MOSNUM outlining the proper usage of the numero sign versus number sign?
Another undiscussed usage is in a table header (where space is limited): Is it proper for one to write "№ of shows" or should one write "Number of shows"? See the example in the header of this table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmoose1 ( talk • contribs) 14:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
So to form a rule for the manual of style and summarize the above, we could say "Number of shows" if there is enough space, but if space is tight (eg: in a table), then one should write "№ of shows"? Not sure if we're ready to form a rule for house numbering? As for the symbols that should be used: I think both No and No. should be avoided as № is readily available in the Symbols box and a wiki article is available to counter ambiguation. Furthermore, # should be strictly avoided in this context as it causes confusion for British English audiences. American English audiences recognize # and No. have the same meaning. Any disagreements? Lars ( talk) 16:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Another user has questioned my copy-editing of an article in which I reformatted some two-digit dates into 4-digit format (for example, in "from 1930 until -54" I changed "-54" to "1954", and in the passage "...in 1954 XYZ bought the blah-blah-blah, then XYZ merged ZYX into the QRS, which in -55..." I changed "-55" to "1955"). He points out (correctly, as far as I can tell) that nothing in WP:MOSNUM expressly states that, except for the closing date in a date range such as "2005–06", all four digits should be included when expressing a four-digit year. Apparently this user has been expressing years in a two-digit format whenever a four-digit year had previously appeared in the same paragraph.
I have a hunch that this issue isn't addressed in MOSNUM because the question never arose earlier -- contributors have assumed that years should be expressed using all digits, with the notable exception of date ranges (which have been discussed several times). Now that the question has arisen, I think that MOSNUM needs to be revised to clarify that every stand-alone mention of a year should use all of the digits in that year. Accordingly, I would like to append the following to the second bullet in WP:YEAR: "When listing a year outside the context of a year range, use all digits (1954, not '54 or -54)."
Please comment on this proposal. -- Orlady ( talk) 03:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The formats listed under Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Dates_of_birth_and_death don't seem to include anything that would look good or make sense in the lead for a living person for whom the year of birth is in doubt. "Circa" and "floruit" are for ancient Athenians, and "before" is silly, especially when the day is known. The project page entry should allow the use of question marks in such cases, e.g., "Joanne Whalley (born 25 August 19?? in Salford, Greater Manchester) is an English actress." -- Milkbreath ( talk) 11:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Unit symbols and preceding numbers are separated by non-breaking spaces. Should the same convention be used for unit names? (e.g. 35 meters
for "35 meters") —
Nahum Reduta (
talk|
contribs) 06:55, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I have a question about the statement "Locations of birth and death are given subsequently rather than being entangled with the dates" in the "Dates of Birth and Death" section. I have deleted some instances of the birthplace when it is included in the opening parentheses alongside the birthdate, e.g. (born September 4, 1972 in Chicago, Illinois) becomes (born September 4, 1972). To me, this is what the indicated statement means. In some instances (primarily in shorter articles that don't have an "Early Life" section or somesuch), the birthplace information is subsequently only given in an infobox. I never delete the birthplace entirely from the article–only in the opening parentheses and only when the information is included elsewhere (including the infobox as "elsewhere"). I have had a disagreement with a couple people who state that the infobox doesn't count in this regard–that "subsequently" doesn't include the infobox. To me, the infobox is part of the article, and hence does count. Am I wrong on this? If so, I suggest that the statement be amended to include "(not including an infobox)" after "subsequently", because if that's the intended interpretation then right now it's misleading. GreenLocust ( talk) 19:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Again, the purpose of this guideline is "to achieve consistency in the use and formatting of dates and numbers". The location of a person's birth is not a date, and not a number. By keeping the discussion here, you are shutting out editors who watch WP:MOSBIO and who know something about how to write biographical articles. This is completely wrong. Chris the speller ( talk) 03:16, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Just adding my two cents, but when I am writing a stub or start class article, especially ones where the birthplace is of key importance (usually athletes that have notability due to national representation), I will always include the birthplace in the opening paragraph, such as John Smith (born 26 January , 2000 in Sydney, Australia). Also can I add, that just because something is stated in an infobox, does not mean it can't be stated in the main article as the infobox should be a brief summary of the page. I think the deletion of a birthplace in the opening paragraph is stupid as it proves to be a key part (which is what the opening paragraph includes) in many high level amateur athlete articles. JRA_ Westy Qld2 Talk 09:11, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm really hoping the issue isn't really associated with infoboxes per se, as with how to present information in general. My participation in the MoS Infoboxes area is mostly due to the way Certain Editors (no one here, as far as I know) feel that infoboxes are a blight on Wikipedia and should be eliminated (almost?) everywhere. I fight these people, as I've not seen many articles which wouldn't be improved with an infobox of some sort; everything could use a summary IMHO.
Anyway, while ideally all information in an infobox is present in the article's prose, and not every article, such as the ones I tend to work on, follow that ideal, I suspect biography articles are different from my regular domain of mostly "bridge" (as in crossing valleys/rivers/whatever) articles. Asking general infobox people to come up with a rule which mainly applies to biographies will likely get you a lot of confusion, rather than useful results. I suspect your best bet is to ask people interested in Biography articles specifically, as y'all know more about which makes more sense for such. For all of me, it might be more important for some bio articles to center around dates, and for others (subset: athletes) to center around places. I dunno. - Denimadept ( talk) 20:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no need for this dispute to become personal. I would agree that while the birthplace and deathplace should not be within the parenthetical that contains the dates, they do need to be in the article body somewhere. The infobox does not count for this purpose. Powers T 18:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
¶ This is one of a whole host of areas where I think the Manual could be usefully shortened with little or no loss (perhaps even some gain), and thus able to concentrate on areas where there are genuine sources of possible confusion, error, ambiguity, obscurity or offensiveness (as well as become more likely to be read, remembered and heeded). I know that I'm in a distinct minority here, because most of those who spare the time and thought to contribute to this talk page are more likely to favour uniformity for its own sake.
But I really think that this is the kind of question (like whether one writes "4 April", "4th April", "4th of April", "April 4", "April 4th" or "April the 4th") that's best left to the context of a specific article and to its editors' own style and preferences. That Napoléon Bonaparte was born in Corsica and died on Saint Helena, that Adolf Hitler was born in Austria and died in Berlin, that Barack Obama was born in Hawai'i, or that Paul Gauguin died in the Marquesas Islands are probably just as important as, or more important than, the exact year of their births or deaths. That a random French writer was born and died in Paris, or a random English thinker in London, is probably less important than the years of his or her life, and could just as well be left to the following text.
Since many biographical articles are inevitably destined to be slightly-expanded stubs, let me note for whatever it's worth that, among my one-volume cyclopedias, Le Petit Larousse Illustré (2004) includes places as well as dates of birth & death within the initial parentheses (brackets), but the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Encyclopedia (2000, based on the Britannica) and the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia (1983) do not. The Cambridge Encyclopedia (2nd edition, 1994) gives just the dates within parentheses, but usually immediately followed by a comma and "born in [place]"; however, the place of death is often not mentioned. —— Shakescene ( talk) 22:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Given the above ample discussion, and the related discussion at [15] that began eight days ago, unless a consensus is voiced against the following two propositions, I propose that within one week:
a) given that a clear consensus has been voiced of the seven editors who have spoken to the issue other than Green Locust (including me, JRA_WestyQld2, Septentrionalis PMAnderson, SMcCandlish, Milkbreath, Sssoul, and Powers T), Green Locust either: 1) roll back his 60-odd deletions of reference to place of birth, or 2) re-insert that information later in each of those articles; and
b) that we delete from this MOS guidance the following phrase: "Locations of birth and death are given subsequently rather than being entangled with the dates."
This change to this guidance would accord with my view.
It would also accord with the views of JRA_WestyQld2 ("when I am writing a stub or start class article, especially ones where the birthplace is of key importance (usually athletes that have notability due to national representation), I will always include the birthplace in the opening paragraph). It would appear as well to accord with the views of Septentrionalis PMAnderson ("not necessary in the first parenthesis - although giving them there is probably harmless for living persons").
The same with the comments of Milkbreath that "you can always just add a sentence to the lead, like, 'Doe was born in Farquardt, Indiana, and died in Blisterfoot, Arizona".
This would also comport with the observations of Shakescene: "That Napoléon Bonaparte was born in Corsica and died on Saint Helena, that Adolf Hitler was born in Austria and died in Berlin, that Barack Obama was born in Hawai'i, or that Paul Gauguin died in the Marquesas Islands are probably just as important as, or more important than, the exact year of their births or deaths. That a random French writer was born and died in Paris, or a random English thinker in London, is probably less important than the years of his or her life, and could just as well be left to the following text. Since many biographical articles are inevitably destined to be slightly-expanded stubs, let me note for whatever it's worth that, among my one-volume cyclopedias, Le Petit Larousse Illustré (2004) includes places as well as dates of birth & death within the initial parentheses (brackets), but the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Encyclopedia (2000, based on the Britannica) and the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia (1983) do not. The Cambridge Encyclopedia (2nd edition, 1994) gives just the dates within parentheses, but usually immediately followed by a comma and "born in [place]"; however, the place of death is often not mentioned."
And Denimadept observes, "For all of me, it might be more important for some bio articles to center around dates, and for others (subset: athletes) to center around places. I dunno."
And Ssoul asks: "(like others have already asked): what is the rationale for the dictum that a biography shouldn't state something as plain and simple as "The subject was born on date in place" - does it mess up some template or something?."
Also with the views of SMcCandlish that at least there should not be a blanket rule of this sort ("If there is not enough material in the article for such a section, then it should be left as-is, because the article is a stub.").
It also comports with the views of Chris the Speller that this is the wrong place-- even on the talk page of this guidance--for a discussion of any such rule ("This discussion should be taking place on WT:MOSBIO. Although this guideline (WP:DATE) asks editors to avoid entangling the locations of birth and death with the dates, its concern is with the dates, not with the eventual fate of the locations. WP:MOSBIO lays out what should be included in the opening; locations are not specified."). If this guidance's talk page is not a place to discuss the issue, I would suggest that the guidance is not the place for such a proscription. If such a proscription should appear at all (and most of us it would seem don't believe that one should appear; certainly not a blanket one as exists now), then it should appear in WP:MOSBIO (which does not have such a proscription).
-- Epeefleche ( talk) 22:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I am now free to speak for myself. My understanding is that we had two reasons for generally supporting (birthdate, deathdate) in parentheses.
Both these are minor - and neither should rule out (born 1968 in Toronto, Canada).
Leave this, as often, to the judgment of the writers of the article; and state our reasons in text so we don't have to go through this again. That's what guidelines are for. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Why is {{
date}} not mentioned at
#Dates? Is it deprecated? It would save a lot of the which-order-do-we-put-it-in argument, if the <date formatting style>
parameter be omitted. Consider: whether I use {{date|15 August 2009}}
, {{date|August 15, 2009}}
or {{date|2009-08-15}}
these are all displayed the same, ie 15 August 2009, 15 August 2009 or 15 August 2009 - I personally see 15 August 2009, but you might not. If every date be wrapped in that template, editors could use any format they liked and users would see whatever format they liked. --
Redrose64 (
talk) 21:29, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
convert}}
can be used"...) there is no mention of that template either, and it is neither recommended nor deprecated, just says it can be used. I presume it is the intention not to link MoS guidelines to specific templates: if I wrote another set of conversion templates to "compete" with {{
convert}}
, that also met MOSNUM, they would be equally valid to use; as is doing the conversions longhand.
SimonTrew (
talk) 14:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)It says "5 kg (11 lb) bag of carrots", but it also says "(When they form a compound adjective, values and spelled out units should be separated by a hyphen.)" Which is right? Art LaPella ( talk) 22:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I have put the two paragraphs under this heading in their own subsection. The reasons I did this are as follows:
The passage was out of place where I found it. However, someone might be able to find a better place for it than where I have put it. Michael Glass ( talk) 08:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
One of the first pieces of advice in the section on units of measurement says:
Unfortunately this section undermines this aim by using two terms that may defy understanding. These are
To clear up confusion we need to define what we mean by region-specific topics and internationally accepted units.
In plain English, a region-specific topic, for example, may refer to any region and any topic, e.g., the Pavillon_de_Breteuil, the home of the International Bureau of Weights and Measures. But of course it is referring in a roundabout way to US and UK based articles that happen to use Imperial or US Customary units. In this case it may be better to find some other term that won't be so ambiguous or confusing or simply write US-specific articles and some UK-based articles.
Internationally accepted units may need explanaion, perhaps like this:
Internationally accepted units are:
What do others think? Michael Glass ( talk) 08:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Non-SI units accepted for use with SI lists the minute, hour, day, degree of arc, minute of arc, second of arc, hectare, litre and tonne as non-SI units accepted for use with SI. It doesn't seem to mention multiples of the litre (millilitre, kilolitre, megalitre, etc.). It doesn't mention the week, month, year, decade, century, annum, kiloannum, megaannum, etc. It doesn't mention the kilometre per hour, litre per hundred kilometres, etc. These should be allowed without SI coversions.
The electronvolt (kiloelectronvolt, megaelectronvolt, etc.) is not SI nor is it based on fundamental constants but a hybrid of both but these should be allowed and we generally won't need to convert them to SI.
What about the kilowatt-hour, debye, astronomical unit, lightyear and parsec? I'd be inclined to convert them to SI depending on context.
"other non-SI units that are used internationally" is a little vague. Certainly we'd want the nautical mile and knot in certain contexts but a conversion to kilometres and miles (per hour) would be desirable. As noted above, we could agrue that imperial/US units are used internationally but we'd want these converted. Many units (e.g. the carat, calorie, ton of TNT, oil barrel, millimetre of mercury, atmosphere and Troy ounce) are used internationally but should be converted to SI.
We'd be better of ditching the ångström, bar, millibar, etc. entirely but there probably is little hope of that; however, we don't really need to convert these to SI (since it's just a matter of moving the decimal point). JIMp talk· cont 23:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
28 parts in 106 ain't that bad for two centuries ago and greater accuracy than you mostly find here. We surely shouldn't discourage the use of the litre and millilitre in cases where they are used in the world out there. Ask for a pint of beer in the pub & you shouldn't expect a 28-parts-per-million accuracy. JIMp talk· cont 18:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't know why Michael Glass is continuously starting this kind of discussion. The intent of the rules about use of units is absolutely clear: Use those units that will be expected in this context by the greatest fraction of the expected readership. If some readers will need a conversion to understand a measurement properly, provide it.
The metric system in the sense of SI units + units accepted for use with SI is a useful first approximation for the practical result of this rule. It's not quite correct for a number of reasons
I see no need to change the current text. Hans Adler 21:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
My aim is the clarify the wording, not change the policy. If the intent of the wording is clear, then it might be possible to have the wording equally clear. For example, 'some regional topics' might be preferable to 'region-specific topics', and I can't see the problem of defining 'internationally accepted units'. For example:
Internationally accepted units are:
The basic problem is that we have the metric system that is used in most countries of the world, the US Customary system that is widely used in the US and the Imperial System, parts of which are still used in the UK and to a lesser extent in other English-speaking countries, and also in aviation and some specialised measurements such as computer screens. To cater for the needs of an English-speaking readership we need to provide both metric and traditional measures in a wide range of contexts. I think if we concentrate on the needs of readers we might make more progress. Michael Glass ( talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
The knot ant the nautical mile are listed here [16]. Table 8 is appended to Chapter 4 of the BIPM brochure which is entitled, "Non-SI units accepted for use with the SI, and units based on fundamental constants". However, I do agree that "other units that are widely used internationally" is too vague. It could be rephrased as "other units that are widely used internationally for specific purposes" but if we tried to be more specific than that, someone is sure to come up with some measure that isn't covered. That said, I would welcome a better phrase, if anyone could come up with it. Finally, Wikipedia can't solve the issue of English-speaking people using different weights and measures; what we might be able to do is work out how to cater for these differences and how to express the guidelines in a way that is clear and helpful. Perhaps something like this would be the way to go:
Internationally accepted units are:
Michael Glass ( talk) 01:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I am pleased to see that the wording of the policy has been revised in the light of this discussion. I think that something could be done about "country-specific" and "region-specific" and I'll come back to this discussion with a further proposal later. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Markup for examples and mentions at WP:MOSNUM remains inconsistent, even more than at WP:MOS. I have done a little housekeeping editing just now, but I did very little with such markup.
Some points are clear: for good reasons we generally use italics for a mention (see WP:MOS for discussion of the use–mention distinction) as opposed to an example, so we should be consistent with that:
The word approximately is preferred to approx.
Not:
The word "approximately" is preferred to "approx".
But also, I should say, not this:
The word approximately is preferred to approx.
I don't say that exactly these cases turn up; I merely illustrate. Sometime we will need to discuss more subtle cases, and then go through these pages making all such markup rational and consistent. I propose that the topic be dealt with at WT:MOS, rather than here, for three reasons:
Do editors agree to centralising the discussion there?
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 07:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
<code>
is appropriate.) --
A. di M. 08:56, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
What do you think about this edit? The text before this edit was discussed in /Archive 123#Comparison of texts in "Large numbers"; that version was essentially the one by TheFeds, who had bothered the gargantuan nasty task of wading through all the archived discussions about this. The edit removed, among other things, the permission to use commas in numbers 1000 ≤ x < 10,000 which are not years or page numbers, which is the current behaviour of {{ convert}} and some other templates I can't remember right now. -- ___A. di M. 10:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
There seems to have been a flurry of edits over the last day or so from A di M (5) Noetica (9) and GregL (6). While I know these are all good faith edits from good faith editors, it suggests to me that this has not properly achieved the consensus we should expect before changing WP:MOSNUM, where stability is incredibly important. May I suggest we hold off and perhaps use the talk page more rather than the guide itself, since a guide that is constantly changing is no use to anyone. SimonTrew ( talk) 12:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
(In the interests of disclosure, with regard to the following, it looks like Greg_L worked on the current version, and I worked on the versions that were recently reverted. It's not personal, but I do think that my edits were better.)
It's pretty clear that the consensus (which extends far beyond MOSNUM) with respect to things like regional usage variations is to allow them in context (and the text I proposed and eventually inserted into MOSNUM on digit grouping upholds that). Furthermore, the recently-reverted section clearly articulates that there are two methods of digit grouping in standard English usage (and that neither is to be mandated exclusively), noting some contexts in which it is common to find one or the other. The previous version of that text is also clearer, because it organizes these things into bullets and uses more precision in explaining the technical details.
With regard to another recent change—that of the reworded adoption of international standards section—I still object to the aggressiveness and essay-like qualities of the current ( reverted) version. My version retains the core message that certain things (i.e. " %", "MiB") are not valid on Wikipedia despite the existence of various international standards, but avoids the repetition of "real-world" and removes the commentary about the objectives of Wikipedia. (Those things are rightly found in the policy documents and user essays, but don't need to be reinterpreted here, especially not in the context of two long-running editing disputes.)
Besides, the consensus on Wikipedia is not that real-world usage always prevails—though it often does, justifiably—just look at the citation system for evidence of consensus in favour of an invented system not found externally. The point is that Wikipedia can choose to follow whatever the community wants, and isn't necessarily bound to the real-world norm as a matter of policy. If doing something differently makes the encylopedia better, then it's a valid course of action. But if following someone else's lead (be it BIPM or traditional American usage) leads to a better encyclopedia, then that's appropriate as well. If we want to decide what Wikipedia's broad objectives ought to be, we should discuss that at WP:VPP. TheFeds 17:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I actually end up back where I started. I asked for a stand off of edits and to take it to talk page rather than continually change the policy article itself. I am sorry Greg L that you are offended that a mere article editor like me might have an interest in the guidelines under which he is supposed to edit articles, and impinging on your space by it not going the right way to discuss changes while you were away (and frankly it was going quite nicely, with very few edits and plenty of discussion before changes were made). As for history etc etc, well, who cares? I look at the article and see the problems NOW, not as they were seven years ago. Since 85% of my edits are in article space not WP space or template space or whatever, I just want to come here, note a problem, get consensus, etc. While it is useful (sincerely) that other kinds of WP editors take time to make sure MOS etc are correct, I simply am not going to get bound up in this, but it annoys me that it smacks of WP:OWNERSHIP almost. The veiled thing about "New editors" I assume refers to me. If it does, just say so, I can take it. I didn't realise longevity was a criterion ("take MOSNUM away from the long-standing ways things have always been done" – excuse me while I bring the boy down the chimney and teach him to type a response to that).
MOSNUM actually had a period of stability where I could actually rely on it for a bit. I think now I give up and will just stick to, say, the convert template talk where, if there are problems or additions needed for articles,
User:Jimp and many other helpful folk there actually sort it out and, if us poor article editors are mistaken, kindly and politely tell us so. What is the problem here? Have I hit the nail on the head? It seems to me, right now, that there is a kinda warring faction with Greg L, Noetica and PMA some long-standing editors that none of us mere mortals are privy to, and only they have the right of an opinion on MOSNUM? Can you point me to maybe a meta-policy that says so?
Perhaps I am not in the best of moods, so for that I apologise in advance. But MOSNUM is supposed to be here to HELP PEOPLE WRITE ARTICLES, not as some navel-gazing activity. It does not help me write articles if it is constantly changing under my feet, and what in other contexts would be characterised as an edit war has taken place in the last couple of days. C'mon, folks, you are supposed to be the best of the best to edit something as crucial as this. Live up to that responsibility.
Best wishes. SimonTrew ( talk) 00:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I have discovered an anomaly with using the 'convert' template. Look at this:
When converted into square kilometres, 4699 sq miles comes out 170 km2 more than 4700 sq miles. Lose one square mile, gain 65.6 square miles!
I think the problem may occur because of rounding when a number ends in two zeros.
Therefore it is risky to rely blindly on the conversion template. It may give anomalous results.
Please let me know if this issue should be raised elsewhere. Michael Glass ( talk) 06:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
{{convert|4700|mi2|sigfig=4}}
gives 4,700 square miles (12,170 km2). You just have to use the significant figures setting. For many articles that rounding is appropriate; if you write 4,700 nobody is going to expect it to be exactly that. If you write 4,699 they will expect it to be exactly that.
SimonTrew (
talk) 12:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I think the trouble is that as the rounding cuts in automatically unless it is overriden. The default position can be a trap for the unwary. An over-precise conversion can be overridden; the opposite may not be noticed by the uninformed. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite}}
templates are also trick but everyone expects those to be used.
SimonTrew (
talk) 04:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC)The behaviour contradicts the principle of least surprise, but as a mathematician I think this is one of the situations where that is actually justified. Besides, I don't see how we can avoid it. Consider:
0.47000 square miles (1.2173 km2) | 4.7000 square miles (12.173 km2) | 47.000 square miles (121.73 km2) | 470.00 square miles (1,217.3 km2) | 4,700.0 square miles (12,173 km2) |
0.4700 square miles (1.217 km2) | 4.700 square miles (12.17 km2) | 47.00 square miles (121.7 km2) | 470.0 square miles (1,217 km2) | 4,700 square miles (12,000 km2) |
0.470 square miles (1.22 km2) | 4.70 square miles (12.2 km2) | 47.0 square miles (122 km2) | 470 square miles (1,200 km2) | 4,700 square miles (12,000 km2) |
0.47 square miles (1.2 km2) | 4.7 square miles (12 km2) | 47 square miles (120 km2) | 470 square miles (1,200 km2) | 4,700 square miles (12,000 km2) |
0.5 square miles (1.3 km2) | 5 square miles (13 km2) | 50 square miles (130 km2) | 500 square miles (1,300 km2) | 5,000 square miles (13,000 km2) |
Notice that in the last column we always write 4,700, whether we mean 2, 3 or 4 significant digits. Similarly, in the penultimate column it's not clear whether 470 has 2 or 3 significant digits. The template needs to guess. We can't make it guess correctly in all situations, but if it makes sure to under-, rather than overestimate the number of significant digits in doubtful cases, then it's more likely to be wrong right than if it does the opposite. And even if the template gets the intended number of significant digits wrong, then except in situations where a human reader can infer it from the context it is usually correct and encyclopedic to round the numbers.
But there is an unrelated anomaly in the top right cell of the table. I am taking this to Template talk:Convert, because it's clearly a bug that needs fixing. Hans Adler 09:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Do we really need this whole conversion business at all? As stated above, the conversion is not 100% reliable and it's not "official info" anyway. Maybe we should just use English units in American/British articles and metric units everywhere else. Offliner ( talk) 10:29, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
convert}}
and the MoS then says "don't use conversions except in this or that circumstance" we can probably change the templates and 90% of articles will immediately conform (the remainder being for things like historical use of units, or quoted sources, etc). So, even if the conversion is not particularly useful in itself, simply as a marker that "this is a measurement" is. I know {{
val}}
also stands for that purpose but the same applies, mutatis mutandis. It is also extremely helpful for people translating across different Wikipedia (what am I supposed to do, for example, if I translate a French article about an American car?)
SimonTrew (
talk) 10:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC){{convert|470.00|mi2|km2}}
gives 470.00 square miles (1,217.3 km2), with one 0 after the point instead of two. --
A. di M. 13:25, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I think a template that automatically treats a zero as not a significant figure is a bit of a worry. Take the areas of the states of the United States. it would be bizarre to think that the areas of the states of Washington and North Dakota were less accurately surveyed than the other 48 states simply because the areas in square miles happened to end in two zeros [17]. Michael Glass ( talk) 13:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Treating a number ending in a zero as being automatically less accurate than a number ending in any other numeral strikes me as some kind of magical thinking. Obviously there are times when the zero is not significant, but by taking it for granted that it is always non-significant is like some kind of superstition, where inaccuracies come in even tens and hundreds just as bad luck is supposed to come in threes. These things need to be judged on a case by case basis. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Wondering if someone's smart enough to write a template to do automatic currency conversions? I'd love to be able to put in something from which Wikipedia readers automatically choose what currencies they want the data in. Suppose NZ GDP is $42,052 (NZ$). And I put this in an article. Is there some way a user could click on a button next to the amount to switch the currency? Like, click, and it's $28K USD. Or, click, it's $42K NZD. Or, click some other currency? It would be really cool to have. Simpler variant: assume no inflation and its easier but less accurate. A simple template that translates NZ$ to US$ or vice versa based on today's exchange rate, and ignores inflation considerations or the passage of time. Complex variant: Suppose a fact about money was added on date X. But today it's date Y. So, information needed would be: money amount in NZ$ on date X; conversion rate NZ$ to US$ on date X; inflation (or deflation) of US currency between date X and date Y; lastly, date Y. Boom -- up-to-date accurate amount information. No way Encyclopedia Brittanica could ever do that. That would be really cool! As far as I can tell, Village Pump doesn't have any converter tools for inflation or currency conversions. Tomwsulcer ( talk) 01:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)tomwsulcer
¶ I'm too sleepy to go through all these points seriatim, but (with the blithe obliviousness of the technically-ignorant), I don't see insuperable obstacles on either side:
For present amount of money, there would be little problem having a converting template, but I'd suggest that: 1) it rounds conversions down to one significant figure (or two, if that lone one would be a "1" or a "2"—this can be implemented via {{#expr: {{{1}}} round -floor(ln(0.4*{{{1}}})/ln10)}}
) and precedes them with "approx."; for example, 10,000,000
Swedish kronor (approx. US$1.4M, €1.0M, or £800k as of Aug. 2009), or 42,052
New Zealand dollars (approx. US$30k, €20k, or £17k as of Aug. 2009); 2) that, if possible, whoever updates the conversion rates uses a moving average over a sufficiently long period of time rather than an instantaneous value (if we can find a source giving them). This way, the converted figures don't change whenever the wind blows. --
___A. di M. 16:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The guideline for naming centuries (here and at WP:MOS) has been hotly contested, and I do not think we are ready to go back to that topic yet. But I am interested in just one provision:
Centuries are named in figures: (the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting); when the adjective is hyphenated, consider nineteenth-century painting, but not when contrasted with painting in the 20th century.
I would like to change the provision to this, to remove what I regard as an unsourced and probably unprecedented invitation to inconsistency:
Centuries are named in figures: the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting.
Can anyone cite a reputable guide that allows for nineteenth-century painting even in the same text (let alone contrasted with) as painting in the 20th century? If no one does, I will proceed with the change. (Even if someone does, I would invoke more major guides that do not support such an inconsistency.)
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 06:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) i support changing the provision to just "Centuries are named in figures: the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting." it's simple, clear and consistent. Sssoul ( talk) 08:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Centuries are named in figures: the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting.
PMA's question: The present wording says nothing, for or against, on using painting of the 20th century at one end of an article and nineteenth-century painting at the other. Why does Noetica assume it does?
Noetica's answer: I don't assume that it does that! I think it should make it clear that the two quite different forms are not to be used in one article; but it suggests that it might be all right, by saying in effect only that the two forms should not be in close proximity. That's what "contrasted with" must involve, if it means anything at all.
[outdent] PMAnderson writes above: "You have received three paragraphs of answer ...". Whether those many paragraphs of prevarication qualify as "answers" is a matter for semantic analysis. One thing is clear: they are not answers to my questions.
I thank other editors for their clear responses. My comment on them: simple consistency is usually the best policy, and all the most influential style guides aim for that. But yes: there is always the provision for exceptions in practice, stated at the top of our MOS pages. Editors at an article can negotiate such things on their merits, aided by clear consensual guidelines from their Wikipedia Manual of Style. Outside of Wikipedia I myself prefer to use the fully worded forms like in the nineteenth century and twelfth-century French kings. But at Wikipedia, I adapt. So do we all. Almost all, I mean.
If there is no substantial support for the present unprecedented and obscure guideline, we should amend the text to the simpler form in a couple of days.
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 23:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Noetica wrote: Outside of Wikipedia I myself prefer to use the fully worded forms like in the nineteenth century and twelfth-century French kings.
The question raised in this section has been settled, I think. No one wants the version we had except PMAnderson; everyone else who comments here explicitly prefers the simpler, clearer guidance. I would have waited longer (as I say above), but the simpler form is now in place. PMA, will you now accept this with good grace? I call on you to do so, and to remove the tag you imposed on the page, since it is obvious that nothing new will be transacted here.
Please see my talkpage also, where I have responded to your post.
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 00:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
[Outdent] PMAnderson, you are not addressing the topic. You hardly ever do, it seems. I started this section for the specific purpose of dealing with one provision in a guideline. There was not even an implicit invitation to discourse on the nature of consensus, or any such broader issue. We have now dealt with the specific topic, even though you steadily refused to answer questions (while others answered yours). What you are now doing is an abuse of the talkpage. Take your generalities elsewhere. At the very least start a new thread – if the topic is localised to WP:MOSNUM and its associated pages.
Since the discussion is now over, and you are on your soapbox concerning other matters, I am now removing the tag {{disputedtag|section=yes}} that you applied. Yes, we could turn our attention to the new section below ( #Centuries).
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 22:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
For everyone's information, I have initiated a discussion here about behavior I have witnessed since editing restrictions were lifted for parties to the delinking case. -- Andy Walsh (talk) 19:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
From the current revision of WP:MOSNUM#Conventions:
As for the point about numerical ranges, sometimes it is useful to use different units for the endpoints, as IR-C in Infrared#CIE division scheme. So I'd rather write:
As for the point about prose (mysteriously called "written form" here), I don't see the point of mandating consistency in the article when it's explicitly not mandated for all other units. Now the MoS suggests that if in an article I write from 2 years to 200 years (to avoid the silly alliteration "... two to two ..." which omitting the first "years" would result in, and to follow the common-sense practice of avoiding using symbols for a unit in everyday usage with a very short name), then I'll have to write from 50 kilowatts per squared metre to 80 kilowatts per squared metre as well, whereas from 50 to 80 kW/m2 would clearly suffice (provided that the kilowatt per squared metre has been spelled out before). So I'd remove the "but only one of these ..." part, so that the general rule in the first bullet of that section can apply. -- ___A. di M. 13:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The guidelines for delimiting numbers are fine for
screen readers at the moment. However I think it's worth noting that screen readers don't read numbers with spaces in them properly: for example, 33 300 400 will be read as "thirty three three hundred four hundred" which makes no sense. Therefore I made
this edit. I just changed many instances of HTML thin spaces into commas in the
Paleolithic article without knowing about the {{
gaps}}
template; perhaps I should have used it.
Graham
87 17:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
May I add encouragement for the use of the YYYY-MM-DD date format in articles relating to, at least, computer programming / languages? We clarification needed like it. -- Darxus ( talk) 16:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
We're writing articles not programs. ISO might be liked by programmers but dmy or mdy is understood and felt appropriate by all. Nor are dmy nor mdy ambiguous if the month is spelt out (or abbreviated to three letters). JIMp talk· cont 19:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I like the YYYY-MM-DD format in a controlled environment. However, the creators of ISO 8601 have adopted and/or hijacked this fomat, and overlaid it with many restrictions (e.g. always use Gregorian calendar, get reader's permission unless 1583 <= year <= 9999). I don't know how popular the format was before the ISO came up with their standard, but I don't consider Wikipedia, the encylopedia anyone can edit, to be a sufficiently controlled environment to use this format. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 20:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
We had this discussion very, very recently. Opinion wasn't uniform or unanimous, but I and several other editors said that this format is still unfamiliar to most potential readers of Wikipedia; it's not apparent at first glance that it's even a date. Once one understands the logic behind it, then, yes, it's unambiguous, but one first has to understand the logic, which is not by itself obvious or intuitive. The second consideration is that one way Wikipedia has avoided ambiguity is to strongly disfavour all-numeric dates (8/20/2009 vs 20/8/2009) and instead insist that months be written out in words, or at least abbreviated alphabetically (Aug., Oct., etc.) A numerical date would certainly be a favour to those whose first language isn't English, and would recognize "9" or "09" faster than "September", but it's outweighed in most people's minds by the unambiguous clarity of an alphanumeric date.
Reading the above discussion more closely, maybe where YYYY-MM-DD might fit in articles about astronomy or computer programming, there be a parenthetic clarifying conversion on its first appearance [e.g. "2008-08-20 (August 20, 2009)"]. —— Shakescene ( talk) 21:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I was inspired to bring up this subject by the addition of a citation to SVG animation. Anyone checking references on SVG animation entities, if they have not already come to know and love the one true geek date format, will, by the time they finish flicking their eyes up the list. I agree that it is not as immediately obvious as using words, but for those who recognize it, it parses far more quickly and easily in the grey goo than anything involving letters. I actually initially used "20 August 2009" in my citation, as I noticed that is what is automatically generated by Cite web, but then immediately afterward noticed my addition was the only one in the list not using YYYY-MM-DD (and corrected my inconsistency in accordance with this document). I also agree that this date format is far more than a pawn of the ISO.
Communicating with humans vs. computers can be a context switch requiring concerted effort. Date formats involving words are on the wrong side of that context switch for the articles for which I recommend this format. -- Darxus ( talk) 03:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
In short, I don't expect Wikipedia to educate people to get ISO 8601 right, and don't feel that the MOS needs to advocate the use of ISO 8601. On the other hand, I have no problem with a YYYY-MM-DD format in general. TheFeds 17:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
There are three acceptable date formats for a given day (excepting of course quotations): "12 December 2004", "December 12, 2004<some piece of punctuation if it is in prose>" and "2004-12-12" but never in prose and only where space is short. This is one or two more than is desirable, but is something we can work with. Certainly if we all changed to "2004-12-12" tomorrow we would get used to it rapidly and wonder how we got on with the clumsy old style, however WP is not a champion of change - one WP:NOT I do agree with. Rich Farmbrough, 21:28, 21 August 2009 (UTC).
"In general use, people don't often refer to times for which Julian dates are appropriate." sure, in general use people don't often refer to history ... actually it's not that uncommon ... especially on an encyclopædia. I still don't see the use of allowing ISO dates at all. If space is short 12 Dec 2004 or Dec 12, 2004 should be fine. JIMp talk· cont 13:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite}}
recommends the ISO format for references, whereas MOS states the opposite. It is simply impossible to obey both of those;
User:mjroots who I greatly respect said on my talk page that MOS takes precedence, and I can only believe that is true, but can we then fix the advice for reference formats please?. Because I did over 100 reference fixups on [[Electric Car] and put them all in ISO format, not out of wanton pedantry but because I was told to (I fixed up the refs far more than just the dates, but did the dates too) and it is a bit ridiculous that in the article it says e.g. 12 April 1972, my birthday, and in the reference 1972-04-12. I can read and understand that, and it is unambiguous at least to me (largest to smallest) – and, yes, I have lived and worked in the US and Canada and that is why personally I prefer writing 12-Apr-72 as a short form because nobody can then possibly mistake it as being 4 December. However, that is not WP MOS approved style, so I write dates in full or use ISO format when recommended. If {{
cite}}
recommends it and MOS disdains it, then what is a poor gnome to do? It is idle to say oh MOS takes precedence that does not help when one is actually adding access dates and publication dates etc to citations. The simplest solution is to get rid of that recommendation out of {{
cite}}
, but I am not qualified to do that, I only use it.
SimonTrew (
talk) 00:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC){{
Citation}}
template, for which {{
cite}}
is a redirect, does not recommend YYYY-MM-DD format for publication dates, only for access dates. While there may have been technical reasons for the recommendation in the past, I am not aware of any continuing technical reasons, so I have removed that recommendation. --
Jc3s5h (
talk) 01:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)I propose that MOSNUM be permanently locked down. “Consensus by parties of two” and “consensus by who can make forty edits a day” is not a consensus and just makes MOSNUM unstable. Unfortunately, it seems that if there is no teacher in the room, we kindergardeners can get out of hand. Way too much time is being wasted under the current system, which breeds anarchy and where the only remedies are to start big formal ANIs, WQAs, and ArbComs.
Too often, editors come to MOSNUM to change things in order to lend legitimacy to their particular way of doing things in articles they’re working. However, this is often done with an insufficient understanding of the ramifications. This results in edit wars and instability on MOSNUM.
I propose that there be a gate keeper on MOSNUM. There were some nice (very nice) periods where MOSNUM was locked down due to protracted bickering over IEC prefixes and date linking. And in both cases, the admins (MZMcBride and MASEM) did fabulous jobs watching over WT:MOSNUM discussions. What about those discussions? Well, with MOSNUM locked down, suddenly there was an outbreak of peace and tranquility and awfully civil, good-faith discussion. Check out WT:MOSNUM Archive 120 to see how smoooothly things worked back then. All MZMcBride and MASEM had to do was watch over the discussions to ascertain whether what was being proposed was uncontroversial, minor, or was significant but enjoyed a wide consensus. Then they simply copied the proposed verbiage and pasted it into the spot designated by the proposing editor.
How say others? Greg L ( talk) 04:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
MOSNUM guidelines are often the product of long, protracted, evolutionary-like progress. Having editors who just advanced to Junior High and gained access to the computer in the school library come in and change some guideline, like, “everything will be metric-only” (perhaps doing so will smooth our membership into the United Federation of Planets), may seem perfectly rational to that contributor. I can think of better things to do than go to MOSNUM and start counting reverts-per-24-hour period. Or explaining (again and again) what “consensus” means. And, sometimes, some editors in real life don’t have a social bone in their body and that behavior manifests itself here. So we end up reverting a change on WP:MOSNUM and then going through endless and circuitous arguing here on WT:MOSNUM until someone gets shot for a whole 24 to 48 hours. I have no illusions that this will end. (*sigh*) Greg L ( talk) 20:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to point out here a clause from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking:
Because I don't read this discussion page on a regular basis (I only learned about this thru reading the current Wikipedia Signpost), enforcing this now would be inappropriate, so I ask my fellow Admins that any time Greg L comments on anything related to MOSNUM he is violating the terms of this ruling & is liable to sanctions. (PS, while he is not the only one who is banned from this topic, he was the one who initiated this thread.) -- -- llywrch ( talk) 16:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm afraid that ArbCom motions and amendments are often framed poorly by arbs who have far too big a workload and too little time, on- and off-wiki. Nevertheless, the intent is clear: Greg and several others may not edit the sections of MOSNUM or MOS or LINKING that are concerned with date linking; nor may they discuss the issue anywhere on the project. However, this probably doesn't prevent their asking others to deal with an issue in articles of which they are a regular editor (Vandenberg's words, to that effect). Aside from that, they may edit and discuss anywhere any aspect of the style guides.
Yes, an apology by Llywrch would be much appreciated; it would cost little and foster a harmonious environment here. Please remember that ArbCom is set to examine editor relations and stability on MoS pages rather soon, and has made it clear that any editor here will be scrutinised if necessary. ArbCom regards the good working of the style guides very seriously. Tony (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Just for the information of anyone here who might be interested, there is a discussion at WT:MOS#Wikipedia:Describing drum sizes of a small project by the same name. The project itself ( WP:Describing drum sizes) and discussions about it probably belong on, and will no doubt soon appear on, WP:MOSMUSIC and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (music), respectively. —— Shakescene ( talk) 04:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure why but there is a pull towards using numerals in the MoS, maybe because of the preponderance of "computer types". The MoS used to recommend words for centuries, then it was changed, when I noticed I had, by agreement, the option for words put back in:- then it was taken out again...
AS far as it goes Oxford recommends words as does Chicago "In nontechnical contexts, the following are spelled out: whole numbers from one through one hundred, round numbers, and any number beginning a sentence. For other numbers, numerals are used." (also here Strunk and White 1918 has "It was chiefly in the eighteenth century that a very different conception of history grew up."
To me, numerals looks like note-taking in this context, I expect to see a hastily scrawled C around the number.
However if the three main (?) MoS concur - and the other reasons for abbreviation, saving time, keystrokes and paper are absent - surely we should go with spelled out centuries?
11.6.2. Centuries
Depending on the editorial style of the work, refer to centuries in words or figures; Oxford style is to use words. (p. 191)
9.36 Centuries
Particular centuries are spelled out and lowercased.
There is no need to hyphenate twenty-first to century; except in pathological cases, "Mike Gatting's twenty-first-century scores were not as good as earlier." perhaps. But to argue WP is technical is to have a broad definition of the term. Indeed I would aver that the only narrowly technical use of "19th century" might be calibrating a time machine. The Oxford I refer to is The Oxford Style Manual which incorporates The Oxford Guide to Style. Proof by Google is not helpful either technically ( try for example "nineteenth century" site:.edu ) or stylistically ("fuck" 158 million, "copulate" 380,000 - and that's my excuse for typing "fuck" into search engines). As far as typos go, it is amusing, if not instructive to see "21th century" typed in this discussion, not demolishing the argument, but certainly denting it. The typical use of a century is in a similar manner to a reign, "Jacobean, Elizabethan, nineteenth century" - I have even seen statements where the term has been redefined to fit the needs "when we say eighteenth century in this context we mean from about 1692 to 1780". It is not a measure in the sense that we can say (or we could but we would be ill advised) "the 21.12th century". The numbers are effectively cleansed of their numerical meaning. Rich Farmbrough, 21:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC).
So we now have three editors who prefer nineteenth century, and cite style guides to that effect, to answer the several editors who prefer 19th century, and quote no authority. On balance, doesn't this support the position that both have their uses in different fields? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 120 | ← | Archive 122 | Archive 123 | Archive 124 | Archive 125 | Archive 126 | → | Archive 130 |
When I see a linked date in a web citation template, such as "|date= April 25, 2004|title=Incomprehensible Emphasis", I feel a strong urge to delink it. I am aware of the proscription of mass delinking of dates, but cannot begin to imagine how any reader can be helped by following the linked date of an article's publishing on the Web, or, even more absurdly, the linked date that some editor accessed that site. I sure hope I don't get into trouble by delinking these, because I fix a lot of articles for other reasons, so a lot of footnote dates might get delinked while I'm at it. Have I missed something? Does anyone have a good reason to keep these links? Chris the speller ( talk) 02:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Time of access (date) is useful for the purpose to evaluate if the source may have changed. Esp when the source may have an interest in "editing the past" .. Electron9 ( talk) 01:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
I have started a community RFC about a proposal for a bot to unlink dates. Please see Wikipedia:Full-date unlinking bot and comment here. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 10:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that this line appears to be wrong: "negative values may be used in lieu of S and E"
It is my understanding that negative values are generally S and W.
If you agree could you please make the change.
203.206.170.6 ( talk) 02:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
SimonTrew ( talk) 17:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Editors may find this article offers some historical perspective. LeadSongDog come howl 18:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Could WP:DATEOTHER and/or WP:OTHERDATE possibly be redirected to Wikipedia:DATE#Other_date_ranges? Both are unused and would make correcting instances of "XXXX–present" that much less cumbersome. (If this has been discussed before, my apologies, but I could not find the discussion) DKqwerty ( talk) 21:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
How does one determine if an article has a "largely American readership"? And why should it matter? Nobody uses the small calorie for that purpose, and practically everybody uses kilocalories (and calls them "calories" in colloquial speech). (Using kilojoules is mandatory in many places including the EU, but producers will usually display them after kilocalories, as they are much less widely understood by the general public at least in Italy— YMMV.) -- A. di M. ( talk) 18:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
{{
convert}}
talk page the ability to switch the output order, since obviously a lot of the time one is given a figure in, say, [kilo]calories and the rest of the article uses joules first, and to have to convert it to joules and then jiggle it back to get the calories one had in the first place rather confounds the point of convert doing the, er, conversion. However I do appreciate this may not be an easy change!
SimonTrew (
talk) 20:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Let's get back on topic. Do you agree that it'd be OK to throw away the sentence "For articles with a largely American readership, use the synonym dietary calorie(s) with a one-time link to kilogram calorie.", considering there's no easy way to find out where the readers of an article come for? -- A. di M. – 2009 Great Wikipedia Dramaout 10:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Why can't we allow ″ for the inch (and ′ for the foot)? It is more common that "in" in actual use, and it is explicitly allowed in Unicode's description of the character ("U+2033 DOUBLE PRIME = seconds, inches"). I guess it was done for the risk of confusion with the arc second, but I don't think that it's a plausible confusion, any more than "ft" can be confused with the femtotonne :-). -- A. di M. ( talk) 19:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
"
(").′
can interpret it how it sees fit (as it can for "
so I see no great difficulty there in worrying about browsers or fonts that do not interpret the sequence as the glyph you desire.
SimonTrew (
talk) 20:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
′
the same way as ′
(unless it's broken). The fact that fonts might have no glyph or a "wrong" glyph for that character is more serious. But how many fonts without a "decent" glyph for ″ and ′ are there? BTW, the same argument would also apply to the arc-minute and the arc-second, but we don't discourage using these characters for them. --
A. di M. (
talk) 21:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)But sometimes the second form can be useful, for example when numbers have vastly different magnitudes (e.g. "3000 nm – 1 mm" is generally better than "3–0.001 μm"). So I would rather say that the first style is generally preferable over the second, rather than outright banishing the second style.
I don't see the point of the last requirement. It goes against all the principles about the choice of units (spell out the first occurrence, after that prefer symbols if the name is long and/or the unit is used very often). Why isn't it OK to write "widgets range from 23 to 57 kilograms, whereas ding-dongs range from 95 to 182 kg"? -- A. di M. – 2009 Great Wikipedia Dramaout 14:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
{{convert|23|-|57|kg}}
produces 23–57 kilograms (51–126 lb) and {{convert|95|-|182|kg|abbr=on}}
produces 95–182 kg (209–401 lb). Not saying you're wrong; quite the opposite, that otherwise with conversion you'd end up with four units (two for the original and two for the conversion), which is pushing the reader's patience a bit in my opinion.
SimonTrew (
talk) 14:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC){{
convert}}
doesn't seem to do the spacing correctly according to WP:DATE, but Ill take that to its talk page. Nevertheless, I'll keep this here cos, unless you are better than me, there does seem to be some ambiguity – or at least difficulty meeting the requirements – when dealing with conversions, since {{
convert}}
only lets you have abbreviations for the destination unit (as far as I know), so that might be worth trying to clear up at the same time. Of course this is not a problem with the template as such, but that and this are so tightly wed, it makes sense for the two to march forward in lockstep.
SimonTrew (
talk) 15:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC){{
convert}}
is not specific to ranges, but is more general in that if the full name of the destination unit is used elsewhere in the article in its full form. This can happen if the article mixes units; something that is generally undesirable, but is desirable in some articles or sections which quote units from secondary sources (and then convert them). I already requested, some time ago, that it would be possible to surround the destination with square brackets for this purpose, to be able to use conversions in quotes; that has not been acted upon, but still stands on the "wish list", I believe.
SimonTrew (
talk) 15:22, 19 July 2009 (UTC)This has been brought up already, but I feel strongly that we should encourage use of "1996–present" instead of "since 1996".
Using "since 1996" is ambiguous because it can be interpreted to mean "since 1996 ended", i.e. starting from 1997, or "since a period within 1996". i.e. starting from 1996. Using "1996–present", however, is unambiguous in that the only interpretation that can be taken from this is "since a period within 1996".
I do not see any valid argument in that "the present" is a moving target. Sure it is, but if someone begins to be active in 1996, and is still active today, we will indicate "1996–present". If they stop being active in 2009, we will adjust to indicate "1996–2009". Please, can we revive this discussion?. — \`CRAZY`(lN)`SANE`/ ( talk • contribs) 10:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
The section "Longer periods" concludes:
I wonder if the expression reliable historians here is overly restrictive. I think more the message here is that the uncertainty is on the part of the (secondary) sources, which I suppose for our purposes here we must assume to be RS, rather than on historians particularly. Can I suggest, therefore reliable historians is replaced either with reliable sources or secondary sources?
Best wishes SimonTrew ( talk) 14:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
In the "Unit names and symbols" section it says:
(My bold). Can we change this to:
This just seems far more natural english to me. Perhaps the "unit" business sent the orignal author scurrying to the singular (and then pluralising it), but the second, to me, seems more natural and loses no meaning. To say "units names" is definitely erroneous (and, I imagine, just a typo): choose "Units' names, "Unit names", or "The names of units".
In article namespace I would tend to change this under WP:BOLD, but I think right to be very cautious here. If you think I should have just changed it, I should be pleased for your advice. SimonTrew ( talk) 15:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Not sure how relevant this is, and MOSNUM seems, probably rightly, to be silent on the matter: mixing units in dimensions (and as a specific example I give UK timber units).
It would seem, in general, to be desirable to encourage the units partaking in a multiple-dimension quantity (e.g. volume) to be the same. e.g. 1 metre (3 ft 3 in) × 3 metres (9.8 ft) × 6 metres (20 ft). MOSNUM does say that that is to be preferred, though obviously it is not always appropriate (e.g something that is very long but relatively thin, such as describing the volume of a transatlantic cable with a circular cross section by its length and its diameter). I admire MOSNUM's quetism here and trust to WP:COMMON, but I wonder if there should be a very gentle hint to use the same unit unless WP:COMMON overrules it.
With UK timber we have a somewhat more interesting problem. Lengths are given generally in metric, but widths and depths in imperial (e.g. 2m of four-by-two, i.e. four inches by two inches in cross section). Of course this is mixing units, and also to add to the fun, the four-by-two is nominal (and always was), since planing will make it less than four inches or two inches, and in any case it is nominally 100 mm by 50 mm, not four inches by two, but everyone knows it as four-by-two and it will be labelled as such (as a descriptive label; 100 mm × 50 mm will be on there somewhere). This is probably not very important in itself (as I say the four-by-two is more a nominal and descriptive label than a totally accurate measure) but I can probably imagine analagous cases where it might be.
The units section of MOSNUM is rather quiet on this, and perhaps rightly so, but it comes under the general head of not mixing units, which in this case is quite definitely the right thing to do.
Best wishes SimonTrew ( talk) 08:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I and another editor have a disagreement over the rule "Values and unit symbols are separated by a non-breaking space." We both agree that sometimes in a number/unit combination the number is a modifier of the unit (e.g. we have 12 hammers), while other times the number/unit combination is a compound modifying a third word (e.g. we have a 12 lb hammer).
I understand the MoS to require a non-breaking space in the second situation but not in the first. The other editor understands the MoS to require a non-breaking space in the first situation but not in the second. In the second situation, the other editor believes there should either be a hyphen or no space at all (e.g. 12-lb or 12lb) to convey the compound nature of the number/unit combination. (I have asked the other editor to comment here and hope they will correct me if I have misunderstood.)
The current wording of the MoS doesn't say anything about a distinction between these two situations. I'd like to get opinions here about what is intended. So, other's thoughts on this disagreement? Lyrl Talk C 22:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm often seeing 1/3rd, 1/4th, 1/5th, 1/6th, ... I wonder whether this is worth a mention. JIMp talk· cont 18:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Is converting prose descriptions of approximate distances to numeric measurements in line with this page's guidance? A specific example is this edit. I understand the impulse here, and the new text is certainly not incorrect, but it seems to change the tone of the prose. Powers T 13:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, everyone. I've changed some of the {{ convert}}s back to prose but added metric conversions as appropriate. Powers T 12:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Why not have a bot to unlink dates, since that is the policy? Is it because a few should be linked and the bot can't decide which to keep? Bubba73 (talk), 19:46, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
In reference to Archive 106, Question on #1 vs number one, should there be a section in MOSNUM outlining the proper usage of the numero sign versus number sign?
Another undiscussed usage is in a table header (where space is limited): Is it proper for one to write "№ of shows" or should one write "Number of shows"? See the example in the header of this table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmoose1 ( talk • contribs) 14:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
So to form a rule for the manual of style and summarize the above, we could say "Number of shows" if there is enough space, but if space is tight (eg: in a table), then one should write "№ of shows"? Not sure if we're ready to form a rule for house numbering? As for the symbols that should be used: I think both No and No. should be avoided as № is readily available in the Symbols box and a wiki article is available to counter ambiguation. Furthermore, # should be strictly avoided in this context as it causes confusion for British English audiences. American English audiences recognize # and No. have the same meaning. Any disagreements? Lars ( talk) 16:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Another user has questioned my copy-editing of an article in which I reformatted some two-digit dates into 4-digit format (for example, in "from 1930 until -54" I changed "-54" to "1954", and in the passage "...in 1954 XYZ bought the blah-blah-blah, then XYZ merged ZYX into the QRS, which in -55..." I changed "-55" to "1955"). He points out (correctly, as far as I can tell) that nothing in WP:MOSNUM expressly states that, except for the closing date in a date range such as "2005–06", all four digits should be included when expressing a four-digit year. Apparently this user has been expressing years in a two-digit format whenever a four-digit year had previously appeared in the same paragraph.
I have a hunch that this issue isn't addressed in MOSNUM because the question never arose earlier -- contributors have assumed that years should be expressed using all digits, with the notable exception of date ranges (which have been discussed several times). Now that the question has arisen, I think that MOSNUM needs to be revised to clarify that every stand-alone mention of a year should use all of the digits in that year. Accordingly, I would like to append the following to the second bullet in WP:YEAR: "When listing a year outside the context of a year range, use all digits (1954, not '54 or -54)."
Please comment on this proposal. -- Orlady ( talk) 03:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The formats listed under Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Dates_of_birth_and_death don't seem to include anything that would look good or make sense in the lead for a living person for whom the year of birth is in doubt. "Circa" and "floruit" are for ancient Athenians, and "before" is silly, especially when the day is known. The project page entry should allow the use of question marks in such cases, e.g., "Joanne Whalley (born 25 August 19?? in Salford, Greater Manchester) is an English actress." -- Milkbreath ( talk) 11:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Unit symbols and preceding numbers are separated by non-breaking spaces. Should the same convention be used for unit names? (e.g. 35 meters
for "35 meters") —
Nahum Reduta (
talk|
contribs) 06:55, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I have a question about the statement "Locations of birth and death are given subsequently rather than being entangled with the dates" in the "Dates of Birth and Death" section. I have deleted some instances of the birthplace when it is included in the opening parentheses alongside the birthdate, e.g. (born September 4, 1972 in Chicago, Illinois) becomes (born September 4, 1972). To me, this is what the indicated statement means. In some instances (primarily in shorter articles that don't have an "Early Life" section or somesuch), the birthplace information is subsequently only given in an infobox. I never delete the birthplace entirely from the article–only in the opening parentheses and only when the information is included elsewhere (including the infobox as "elsewhere"). I have had a disagreement with a couple people who state that the infobox doesn't count in this regard–that "subsequently" doesn't include the infobox. To me, the infobox is part of the article, and hence does count. Am I wrong on this? If so, I suggest that the statement be amended to include "(not including an infobox)" after "subsequently", because if that's the intended interpretation then right now it's misleading. GreenLocust ( talk) 19:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Again, the purpose of this guideline is "to achieve consistency in the use and formatting of dates and numbers". The location of a person's birth is not a date, and not a number. By keeping the discussion here, you are shutting out editors who watch WP:MOSBIO and who know something about how to write biographical articles. This is completely wrong. Chris the speller ( talk) 03:16, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Just adding my two cents, but when I am writing a stub or start class article, especially ones where the birthplace is of key importance (usually athletes that have notability due to national representation), I will always include the birthplace in the opening paragraph, such as John Smith (born 26 January , 2000 in Sydney, Australia). Also can I add, that just because something is stated in an infobox, does not mean it can't be stated in the main article as the infobox should be a brief summary of the page. I think the deletion of a birthplace in the opening paragraph is stupid as it proves to be a key part (which is what the opening paragraph includes) in many high level amateur athlete articles. JRA_ Westy Qld2 Talk 09:11, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm really hoping the issue isn't really associated with infoboxes per se, as with how to present information in general. My participation in the MoS Infoboxes area is mostly due to the way Certain Editors (no one here, as far as I know) feel that infoboxes are a blight on Wikipedia and should be eliminated (almost?) everywhere. I fight these people, as I've not seen many articles which wouldn't be improved with an infobox of some sort; everything could use a summary IMHO.
Anyway, while ideally all information in an infobox is present in the article's prose, and not every article, such as the ones I tend to work on, follow that ideal, I suspect biography articles are different from my regular domain of mostly "bridge" (as in crossing valleys/rivers/whatever) articles. Asking general infobox people to come up with a rule which mainly applies to biographies will likely get you a lot of confusion, rather than useful results. I suspect your best bet is to ask people interested in Biography articles specifically, as y'all know more about which makes more sense for such. For all of me, it might be more important for some bio articles to center around dates, and for others (subset: athletes) to center around places. I dunno. - Denimadept ( talk) 20:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
There is no need for this dispute to become personal. I would agree that while the birthplace and deathplace should not be within the parenthetical that contains the dates, they do need to be in the article body somewhere. The infobox does not count for this purpose. Powers T 18:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
¶ This is one of a whole host of areas where I think the Manual could be usefully shortened with little or no loss (perhaps even some gain), and thus able to concentrate on areas where there are genuine sources of possible confusion, error, ambiguity, obscurity or offensiveness (as well as become more likely to be read, remembered and heeded). I know that I'm in a distinct minority here, because most of those who spare the time and thought to contribute to this talk page are more likely to favour uniformity for its own sake.
But I really think that this is the kind of question (like whether one writes "4 April", "4th April", "4th of April", "April 4", "April 4th" or "April the 4th") that's best left to the context of a specific article and to its editors' own style and preferences. That Napoléon Bonaparte was born in Corsica and died on Saint Helena, that Adolf Hitler was born in Austria and died in Berlin, that Barack Obama was born in Hawai'i, or that Paul Gauguin died in the Marquesas Islands are probably just as important as, or more important than, the exact year of their births or deaths. That a random French writer was born and died in Paris, or a random English thinker in London, is probably less important than the years of his or her life, and could just as well be left to the following text.
Since many biographical articles are inevitably destined to be slightly-expanded stubs, let me note for whatever it's worth that, among my one-volume cyclopedias, Le Petit Larousse Illustré (2004) includes places as well as dates of birth & death within the initial parentheses (brackets), but the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Encyclopedia (2000, based on the Britannica) and the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia (1983) do not. The Cambridge Encyclopedia (2nd edition, 1994) gives just the dates within parentheses, but usually immediately followed by a comma and "born in [place]"; however, the place of death is often not mentioned. —— Shakescene ( talk) 22:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Given the above ample discussion, and the related discussion at [15] that began eight days ago, unless a consensus is voiced against the following two propositions, I propose that within one week:
a) given that a clear consensus has been voiced of the seven editors who have spoken to the issue other than Green Locust (including me, JRA_WestyQld2, Septentrionalis PMAnderson, SMcCandlish, Milkbreath, Sssoul, and Powers T), Green Locust either: 1) roll back his 60-odd deletions of reference to place of birth, or 2) re-insert that information later in each of those articles; and
b) that we delete from this MOS guidance the following phrase: "Locations of birth and death are given subsequently rather than being entangled with the dates."
This change to this guidance would accord with my view.
It would also accord with the views of JRA_WestyQld2 ("when I am writing a stub or start class article, especially ones where the birthplace is of key importance (usually athletes that have notability due to national representation), I will always include the birthplace in the opening paragraph). It would appear as well to accord with the views of Septentrionalis PMAnderson ("not necessary in the first parenthesis - although giving them there is probably harmless for living persons").
The same with the comments of Milkbreath that "you can always just add a sentence to the lead, like, 'Doe was born in Farquardt, Indiana, and died in Blisterfoot, Arizona".
This would also comport with the observations of Shakescene: "That Napoléon Bonaparte was born in Corsica and died on Saint Helena, that Adolf Hitler was born in Austria and died in Berlin, that Barack Obama was born in Hawai'i, or that Paul Gauguin died in the Marquesas Islands are probably just as important as, or more important than, the exact year of their births or deaths. That a random French writer was born and died in Paris, or a random English thinker in London, is probably less important than the years of his or her life, and could just as well be left to the following text. Since many biographical articles are inevitably destined to be slightly-expanded stubs, let me note for whatever it's worth that, among my one-volume cyclopedias, Le Petit Larousse Illustré (2004) includes places as well as dates of birth & death within the initial parentheses (brackets), but the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Encyclopedia (2000, based on the Britannica) and the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia (1983) do not. The Cambridge Encyclopedia (2nd edition, 1994) gives just the dates within parentheses, but usually immediately followed by a comma and "born in [place]"; however, the place of death is often not mentioned."
And Denimadept observes, "For all of me, it might be more important for some bio articles to center around dates, and for others (subset: athletes) to center around places. I dunno."
And Ssoul asks: "(like others have already asked): what is the rationale for the dictum that a biography shouldn't state something as plain and simple as "The subject was born on date in place" - does it mess up some template or something?."
Also with the views of SMcCandlish that at least there should not be a blanket rule of this sort ("If there is not enough material in the article for such a section, then it should be left as-is, because the article is a stub.").
It also comports with the views of Chris the Speller that this is the wrong place-- even on the talk page of this guidance--for a discussion of any such rule ("This discussion should be taking place on WT:MOSBIO. Although this guideline (WP:DATE) asks editors to avoid entangling the locations of birth and death with the dates, its concern is with the dates, not with the eventual fate of the locations. WP:MOSBIO lays out what should be included in the opening; locations are not specified."). If this guidance's talk page is not a place to discuss the issue, I would suggest that the guidance is not the place for such a proscription. If such a proscription should appear at all (and most of us it would seem don't believe that one should appear; certainly not a blanket one as exists now), then it should appear in WP:MOSBIO (which does not have such a proscription).
-- Epeefleche ( talk) 22:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I am now free to speak for myself. My understanding is that we had two reasons for generally supporting (birthdate, deathdate) in parentheses.
Both these are minor - and neither should rule out (born 1968 in Toronto, Canada).
Leave this, as often, to the judgment of the writers of the article; and state our reasons in text so we don't have to go through this again. That's what guidelines are for. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Why is {{
date}} not mentioned at
#Dates? Is it deprecated? It would save a lot of the which-order-do-we-put-it-in argument, if the <date formatting style>
parameter be omitted. Consider: whether I use {{date|15 August 2009}}
, {{date|August 15, 2009}}
or {{date|2009-08-15}}
these are all displayed the same, ie 15 August 2009, 15 August 2009 or 15 August 2009 - I personally see 15 August 2009, but you might not. If every date be wrapped in that template, editors could use any format they liked and users would see whatever format they liked. --
Redrose64 (
talk) 21:29, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
convert}}
can be used"...) there is no mention of that template either, and it is neither recommended nor deprecated, just says it can be used. I presume it is the intention not to link MoS guidelines to specific templates: if I wrote another set of conversion templates to "compete" with {{
convert}}
, that also met MOSNUM, they would be equally valid to use; as is doing the conversions longhand.
SimonTrew (
talk) 14:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)It says "5 kg (11 lb) bag of carrots", but it also says "(When they form a compound adjective, values and spelled out units should be separated by a hyphen.)" Which is right? Art LaPella ( talk) 22:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I have put the two paragraphs under this heading in their own subsection. The reasons I did this are as follows:
The passage was out of place where I found it. However, someone might be able to find a better place for it than where I have put it. Michael Glass ( talk) 08:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
One of the first pieces of advice in the section on units of measurement says:
Unfortunately this section undermines this aim by using two terms that may defy understanding. These are
To clear up confusion we need to define what we mean by region-specific topics and internationally accepted units.
In plain English, a region-specific topic, for example, may refer to any region and any topic, e.g., the Pavillon_de_Breteuil, the home of the International Bureau of Weights and Measures. But of course it is referring in a roundabout way to US and UK based articles that happen to use Imperial or US Customary units. In this case it may be better to find some other term that won't be so ambiguous or confusing or simply write US-specific articles and some UK-based articles.
Internationally accepted units may need explanaion, perhaps like this:
Internationally accepted units are:
What do others think? Michael Glass ( talk) 08:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Non-SI units accepted for use with SI lists the minute, hour, day, degree of arc, minute of arc, second of arc, hectare, litre and tonne as non-SI units accepted for use with SI. It doesn't seem to mention multiples of the litre (millilitre, kilolitre, megalitre, etc.). It doesn't mention the week, month, year, decade, century, annum, kiloannum, megaannum, etc. It doesn't mention the kilometre per hour, litre per hundred kilometres, etc. These should be allowed without SI coversions.
The electronvolt (kiloelectronvolt, megaelectronvolt, etc.) is not SI nor is it based on fundamental constants but a hybrid of both but these should be allowed and we generally won't need to convert them to SI.
What about the kilowatt-hour, debye, astronomical unit, lightyear and parsec? I'd be inclined to convert them to SI depending on context.
"other non-SI units that are used internationally" is a little vague. Certainly we'd want the nautical mile and knot in certain contexts but a conversion to kilometres and miles (per hour) would be desirable. As noted above, we could agrue that imperial/US units are used internationally but we'd want these converted. Many units (e.g. the carat, calorie, ton of TNT, oil barrel, millimetre of mercury, atmosphere and Troy ounce) are used internationally but should be converted to SI.
We'd be better of ditching the ångström, bar, millibar, etc. entirely but there probably is little hope of that; however, we don't really need to convert these to SI (since it's just a matter of moving the decimal point). JIMp talk· cont 23:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
28 parts in 106 ain't that bad for two centuries ago and greater accuracy than you mostly find here. We surely shouldn't discourage the use of the litre and millilitre in cases where they are used in the world out there. Ask for a pint of beer in the pub & you shouldn't expect a 28-parts-per-million accuracy. JIMp talk· cont 18:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't know why Michael Glass is continuously starting this kind of discussion. The intent of the rules about use of units is absolutely clear: Use those units that will be expected in this context by the greatest fraction of the expected readership. If some readers will need a conversion to understand a measurement properly, provide it.
The metric system in the sense of SI units + units accepted for use with SI is a useful first approximation for the practical result of this rule. It's not quite correct for a number of reasons
I see no need to change the current text. Hans Adler 21:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
My aim is the clarify the wording, not change the policy. If the intent of the wording is clear, then it might be possible to have the wording equally clear. For example, 'some regional topics' might be preferable to 'region-specific topics', and I can't see the problem of defining 'internationally accepted units'. For example:
Internationally accepted units are:
The basic problem is that we have the metric system that is used in most countries of the world, the US Customary system that is widely used in the US and the Imperial System, parts of which are still used in the UK and to a lesser extent in other English-speaking countries, and also in aviation and some specialised measurements such as computer screens. To cater for the needs of an English-speaking readership we need to provide both metric and traditional measures in a wide range of contexts. I think if we concentrate on the needs of readers we might make more progress. Michael Glass ( talk) 23:39, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
The knot ant the nautical mile are listed here [16]. Table 8 is appended to Chapter 4 of the BIPM brochure which is entitled, "Non-SI units accepted for use with the SI, and units based on fundamental constants". However, I do agree that "other units that are widely used internationally" is too vague. It could be rephrased as "other units that are widely used internationally for specific purposes" but if we tried to be more specific than that, someone is sure to come up with some measure that isn't covered. That said, I would welcome a better phrase, if anyone could come up with it. Finally, Wikipedia can't solve the issue of English-speaking people using different weights and measures; what we might be able to do is work out how to cater for these differences and how to express the guidelines in a way that is clear and helpful. Perhaps something like this would be the way to go:
Internationally accepted units are:
Michael Glass ( talk) 01:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I am pleased to see that the wording of the policy has been revised in the light of this discussion. I think that something could be done about "country-specific" and "region-specific" and I'll come back to this discussion with a further proposal later. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Markup for examples and mentions at WP:MOSNUM remains inconsistent, even more than at WP:MOS. I have done a little housekeeping editing just now, but I did very little with such markup.
Some points are clear: for good reasons we generally use italics for a mention (see WP:MOS for discussion of the use–mention distinction) as opposed to an example, so we should be consistent with that:
The word approximately is preferred to approx.
Not:
The word "approximately" is preferred to "approx".
But also, I should say, not this:
The word approximately is preferred to approx.
I don't say that exactly these cases turn up; I merely illustrate. Sometime we will need to discuss more subtle cases, and then go through these pages making all such markup rational and consistent. I propose that the topic be dealt with at WT:MOS, rather than here, for three reasons:
Do editors agree to centralising the discussion there?
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 07:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
<code>
is appropriate.) --
A. di M. 08:56, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
What do you think about this edit? The text before this edit was discussed in /Archive 123#Comparison of texts in "Large numbers"; that version was essentially the one by TheFeds, who had bothered the gargantuan nasty task of wading through all the archived discussions about this. The edit removed, among other things, the permission to use commas in numbers 1000 ≤ x < 10,000 which are not years or page numbers, which is the current behaviour of {{ convert}} and some other templates I can't remember right now. -- ___A. di M. 10:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
There seems to have been a flurry of edits over the last day or so from A di M (5) Noetica (9) and GregL (6). While I know these are all good faith edits from good faith editors, it suggests to me that this has not properly achieved the consensus we should expect before changing WP:MOSNUM, where stability is incredibly important. May I suggest we hold off and perhaps use the talk page more rather than the guide itself, since a guide that is constantly changing is no use to anyone. SimonTrew ( talk) 12:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
(In the interests of disclosure, with regard to the following, it looks like Greg_L worked on the current version, and I worked on the versions that were recently reverted. It's not personal, but I do think that my edits were better.)
It's pretty clear that the consensus (which extends far beyond MOSNUM) with respect to things like regional usage variations is to allow them in context (and the text I proposed and eventually inserted into MOSNUM on digit grouping upholds that). Furthermore, the recently-reverted section clearly articulates that there are two methods of digit grouping in standard English usage (and that neither is to be mandated exclusively), noting some contexts in which it is common to find one or the other. The previous version of that text is also clearer, because it organizes these things into bullets and uses more precision in explaining the technical details.
With regard to another recent change—that of the reworded adoption of international standards section—I still object to the aggressiveness and essay-like qualities of the current ( reverted) version. My version retains the core message that certain things (i.e. " %", "MiB") are not valid on Wikipedia despite the existence of various international standards, but avoids the repetition of "real-world" and removes the commentary about the objectives of Wikipedia. (Those things are rightly found in the policy documents and user essays, but don't need to be reinterpreted here, especially not in the context of two long-running editing disputes.)
Besides, the consensus on Wikipedia is not that real-world usage always prevails—though it often does, justifiably—just look at the citation system for evidence of consensus in favour of an invented system not found externally. The point is that Wikipedia can choose to follow whatever the community wants, and isn't necessarily bound to the real-world norm as a matter of policy. If doing something differently makes the encylopedia better, then it's a valid course of action. But if following someone else's lead (be it BIPM or traditional American usage) leads to a better encyclopedia, then that's appropriate as well. If we want to decide what Wikipedia's broad objectives ought to be, we should discuss that at WP:VPP. TheFeds 17:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I actually end up back where I started. I asked for a stand off of edits and to take it to talk page rather than continually change the policy article itself. I am sorry Greg L that you are offended that a mere article editor like me might have an interest in the guidelines under which he is supposed to edit articles, and impinging on your space by it not going the right way to discuss changes while you were away (and frankly it was going quite nicely, with very few edits and plenty of discussion before changes were made). As for history etc etc, well, who cares? I look at the article and see the problems NOW, not as they were seven years ago. Since 85% of my edits are in article space not WP space or template space or whatever, I just want to come here, note a problem, get consensus, etc. While it is useful (sincerely) that other kinds of WP editors take time to make sure MOS etc are correct, I simply am not going to get bound up in this, but it annoys me that it smacks of WP:OWNERSHIP almost. The veiled thing about "New editors" I assume refers to me. If it does, just say so, I can take it. I didn't realise longevity was a criterion ("take MOSNUM away from the long-standing ways things have always been done" – excuse me while I bring the boy down the chimney and teach him to type a response to that).
MOSNUM actually had a period of stability where I could actually rely on it for a bit. I think now I give up and will just stick to, say, the convert template talk where, if there are problems or additions needed for articles,
User:Jimp and many other helpful folk there actually sort it out and, if us poor article editors are mistaken, kindly and politely tell us so. What is the problem here? Have I hit the nail on the head? It seems to me, right now, that there is a kinda warring faction with Greg L, Noetica and PMA some long-standing editors that none of us mere mortals are privy to, and only they have the right of an opinion on MOSNUM? Can you point me to maybe a meta-policy that says so?
Perhaps I am not in the best of moods, so for that I apologise in advance. But MOSNUM is supposed to be here to HELP PEOPLE WRITE ARTICLES, not as some navel-gazing activity. It does not help me write articles if it is constantly changing under my feet, and what in other contexts would be characterised as an edit war has taken place in the last couple of days. C'mon, folks, you are supposed to be the best of the best to edit something as crucial as this. Live up to that responsibility.
Best wishes. SimonTrew ( talk) 00:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I have discovered an anomaly with using the 'convert' template. Look at this:
When converted into square kilometres, 4699 sq miles comes out 170 km2 more than 4700 sq miles. Lose one square mile, gain 65.6 square miles!
I think the problem may occur because of rounding when a number ends in two zeros.
Therefore it is risky to rely blindly on the conversion template. It may give anomalous results.
Please let me know if this issue should be raised elsewhere. Michael Glass ( talk) 06:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
{{convert|4700|mi2|sigfig=4}}
gives 4,700 square miles (12,170 km2). You just have to use the significant figures setting. For many articles that rounding is appropriate; if you write 4,700 nobody is going to expect it to be exactly that. If you write 4,699 they will expect it to be exactly that.
SimonTrew (
talk) 12:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I think the trouble is that as the rounding cuts in automatically unless it is overriden. The default position can be a trap for the unwary. An over-precise conversion can be overridden; the opposite may not be noticed by the uninformed. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite}}
templates are also trick but everyone expects those to be used.
SimonTrew (
talk) 04:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC)The behaviour contradicts the principle of least surprise, but as a mathematician I think this is one of the situations where that is actually justified. Besides, I don't see how we can avoid it. Consider:
0.47000 square miles (1.2173 km2) | 4.7000 square miles (12.173 km2) | 47.000 square miles (121.73 km2) | 470.00 square miles (1,217.3 km2) | 4,700.0 square miles (12,173 km2) |
0.4700 square miles (1.217 km2) | 4.700 square miles (12.17 km2) | 47.00 square miles (121.7 km2) | 470.0 square miles (1,217 km2) | 4,700 square miles (12,000 km2) |
0.470 square miles (1.22 km2) | 4.70 square miles (12.2 km2) | 47.0 square miles (122 km2) | 470 square miles (1,200 km2) | 4,700 square miles (12,000 km2) |
0.47 square miles (1.2 km2) | 4.7 square miles (12 km2) | 47 square miles (120 km2) | 470 square miles (1,200 km2) | 4,700 square miles (12,000 km2) |
0.5 square miles (1.3 km2) | 5 square miles (13 km2) | 50 square miles (130 km2) | 500 square miles (1,300 km2) | 5,000 square miles (13,000 km2) |
Notice that in the last column we always write 4,700, whether we mean 2, 3 or 4 significant digits. Similarly, in the penultimate column it's not clear whether 470 has 2 or 3 significant digits. The template needs to guess. We can't make it guess correctly in all situations, but if it makes sure to under-, rather than overestimate the number of significant digits in doubtful cases, then it's more likely to be wrong right than if it does the opposite. And even if the template gets the intended number of significant digits wrong, then except in situations where a human reader can infer it from the context it is usually correct and encyclopedic to round the numbers.
But there is an unrelated anomaly in the top right cell of the table. I am taking this to Template talk:Convert, because it's clearly a bug that needs fixing. Hans Adler 09:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Do we really need this whole conversion business at all? As stated above, the conversion is not 100% reliable and it's not "official info" anyway. Maybe we should just use English units in American/British articles and metric units everywhere else. Offliner ( talk) 10:29, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
convert}}
and the MoS then says "don't use conversions except in this or that circumstance" we can probably change the templates and 90% of articles will immediately conform (the remainder being for things like historical use of units, or quoted sources, etc). So, even if the conversion is not particularly useful in itself, simply as a marker that "this is a measurement" is. I know {{
val}}
also stands for that purpose but the same applies, mutatis mutandis. It is also extremely helpful for people translating across different Wikipedia (what am I supposed to do, for example, if I translate a French article about an American car?)
SimonTrew (
talk) 10:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC){{convert|470.00|mi2|km2}}
gives 470.00 square miles (1,217.3 km2), with one 0 after the point instead of two. --
A. di M. 13:25, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I think a template that automatically treats a zero as not a significant figure is a bit of a worry. Take the areas of the states of the United States. it would be bizarre to think that the areas of the states of Washington and North Dakota were less accurately surveyed than the other 48 states simply because the areas in square miles happened to end in two zeros [17]. Michael Glass ( talk) 13:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Treating a number ending in a zero as being automatically less accurate than a number ending in any other numeral strikes me as some kind of magical thinking. Obviously there are times when the zero is not significant, but by taking it for granted that it is always non-significant is like some kind of superstition, where inaccuracies come in even tens and hundreds just as bad luck is supposed to come in threes. These things need to be judged on a case by case basis. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Wondering if someone's smart enough to write a template to do automatic currency conversions? I'd love to be able to put in something from which Wikipedia readers automatically choose what currencies they want the data in. Suppose NZ GDP is $42,052 (NZ$). And I put this in an article. Is there some way a user could click on a button next to the amount to switch the currency? Like, click, and it's $28K USD. Or, click, it's $42K NZD. Or, click some other currency? It would be really cool to have. Simpler variant: assume no inflation and its easier but less accurate. A simple template that translates NZ$ to US$ or vice versa based on today's exchange rate, and ignores inflation considerations or the passage of time. Complex variant: Suppose a fact about money was added on date X. But today it's date Y. So, information needed would be: money amount in NZ$ on date X; conversion rate NZ$ to US$ on date X; inflation (or deflation) of US currency between date X and date Y; lastly, date Y. Boom -- up-to-date accurate amount information. No way Encyclopedia Brittanica could ever do that. That would be really cool! As far as I can tell, Village Pump doesn't have any converter tools for inflation or currency conversions. Tomwsulcer ( talk) 01:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)tomwsulcer
¶ I'm too sleepy to go through all these points seriatim, but (with the blithe obliviousness of the technically-ignorant), I don't see insuperable obstacles on either side:
For present amount of money, there would be little problem having a converting template, but I'd suggest that: 1) it rounds conversions down to one significant figure (or two, if that lone one would be a "1" or a "2"—this can be implemented via {{#expr: {{{1}}} round -floor(ln(0.4*{{{1}}})/ln10)}}
) and precedes them with "approx."; for example, 10,000,000
Swedish kronor (approx. US$1.4M, €1.0M, or £800k as of Aug. 2009), or 42,052
New Zealand dollars (approx. US$30k, €20k, or £17k as of Aug. 2009); 2) that, if possible, whoever updates the conversion rates uses a moving average over a sufficiently long period of time rather than an instantaneous value (if we can find a source giving them). This way, the converted figures don't change whenever the wind blows. --
___A. di M. 16:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The guideline for naming centuries (here and at WP:MOS) has been hotly contested, and I do not think we are ready to go back to that topic yet. But I am interested in just one provision:
Centuries are named in figures: (the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting); when the adjective is hyphenated, consider nineteenth-century painting, but not when contrasted with painting in the 20th century.
I would like to change the provision to this, to remove what I regard as an unsourced and probably unprecedented invitation to inconsistency:
Centuries are named in figures: the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting.
Can anyone cite a reputable guide that allows for nineteenth-century painting even in the same text (let alone contrasted with) as painting in the 20th century? If no one does, I will proceed with the change. (Even if someone does, I would invoke more major guides that do not support such an inconsistency.)
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 06:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) i support changing the provision to just "Centuries are named in figures: the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting." it's simple, clear and consistent. Sssoul ( talk) 08:36, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Centuries are named in figures: the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting.
PMA's question: The present wording says nothing, for or against, on using painting of the 20th century at one end of an article and nineteenth-century painting at the other. Why does Noetica assume it does?
Noetica's answer: I don't assume that it does that! I think it should make it clear that the two quite different forms are not to be used in one article; but it suggests that it might be all right, by saying in effect only that the two forms should not be in close proximity. That's what "contrasted with" must involve, if it means anything at all.
[outdent] PMAnderson writes above: "You have received three paragraphs of answer ...". Whether those many paragraphs of prevarication qualify as "answers" is a matter for semantic analysis. One thing is clear: they are not answers to my questions.
I thank other editors for their clear responses. My comment on them: simple consistency is usually the best policy, and all the most influential style guides aim for that. But yes: there is always the provision for exceptions in practice, stated at the top of our MOS pages. Editors at an article can negotiate such things on their merits, aided by clear consensual guidelines from their Wikipedia Manual of Style. Outside of Wikipedia I myself prefer to use the fully worded forms like in the nineteenth century and twelfth-century French kings. But at Wikipedia, I adapt. So do we all. Almost all, I mean.
If there is no substantial support for the present unprecedented and obscure guideline, we should amend the text to the simpler form in a couple of days.
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 23:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Noetica wrote: Outside of Wikipedia I myself prefer to use the fully worded forms like in the nineteenth century and twelfth-century French kings.
The question raised in this section has been settled, I think. No one wants the version we had except PMAnderson; everyone else who comments here explicitly prefers the simpler, clearer guidance. I would have waited longer (as I say above), but the simpler form is now in place. PMA, will you now accept this with good grace? I call on you to do so, and to remove the tag you imposed on the page, since it is obvious that nothing new will be transacted here.
Please see my talkpage also, where I have responded to your post.
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 00:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
[Outdent] PMAnderson, you are not addressing the topic. You hardly ever do, it seems. I started this section for the specific purpose of dealing with one provision in a guideline. There was not even an implicit invitation to discourse on the nature of consensus, or any such broader issue. We have now dealt with the specific topic, even though you steadily refused to answer questions (while others answered yours). What you are now doing is an abuse of the talkpage. Take your generalities elsewhere. At the very least start a new thread – if the topic is localised to WP:MOSNUM and its associated pages.
Since the discussion is now over, and you are on your soapbox concerning other matters, I am now removing the tag {{disputedtag|section=yes}} that you applied. Yes, we could turn our attention to the new section below ( #Centuries).
– ⊥¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica! T– 22:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
For everyone's information, I have initiated a discussion here about behavior I have witnessed since editing restrictions were lifted for parties to the delinking case. -- Andy Walsh (talk) 19:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
From the current revision of WP:MOSNUM#Conventions:
As for the point about numerical ranges, sometimes it is useful to use different units for the endpoints, as IR-C in Infrared#CIE division scheme. So I'd rather write:
As for the point about prose (mysteriously called "written form" here), I don't see the point of mandating consistency in the article when it's explicitly not mandated for all other units. Now the MoS suggests that if in an article I write from 2 years to 200 years (to avoid the silly alliteration "... two to two ..." which omitting the first "years" would result in, and to follow the common-sense practice of avoiding using symbols for a unit in everyday usage with a very short name), then I'll have to write from 50 kilowatts per squared metre to 80 kilowatts per squared metre as well, whereas from 50 to 80 kW/m2 would clearly suffice (provided that the kilowatt per squared metre has been spelled out before). So I'd remove the "but only one of these ..." part, so that the general rule in the first bullet of that section can apply. -- ___A. di M. 13:26, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The guidelines for delimiting numbers are fine for
screen readers at the moment. However I think it's worth noting that screen readers don't read numbers with spaces in them properly: for example, 33 300 400 will be read as "thirty three three hundred four hundred" which makes no sense. Therefore I made
this edit. I just changed many instances of HTML thin spaces into commas in the
Paleolithic article without knowing about the {{
gaps}}
template; perhaps I should have used it.
Graham
87 17:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
May I add encouragement for the use of the YYYY-MM-DD date format in articles relating to, at least, computer programming / languages? We clarification needed like it. -- Darxus ( talk) 16:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
We're writing articles not programs. ISO might be liked by programmers but dmy or mdy is understood and felt appropriate by all. Nor are dmy nor mdy ambiguous if the month is spelt out (or abbreviated to three letters). JIMp talk· cont 19:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I like the YYYY-MM-DD format in a controlled environment. However, the creators of ISO 8601 have adopted and/or hijacked this fomat, and overlaid it with many restrictions (e.g. always use Gregorian calendar, get reader's permission unless 1583 <= year <= 9999). I don't know how popular the format was before the ISO came up with their standard, but I don't consider Wikipedia, the encylopedia anyone can edit, to be a sufficiently controlled environment to use this format. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 20:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
We had this discussion very, very recently. Opinion wasn't uniform or unanimous, but I and several other editors said that this format is still unfamiliar to most potential readers of Wikipedia; it's not apparent at first glance that it's even a date. Once one understands the logic behind it, then, yes, it's unambiguous, but one first has to understand the logic, which is not by itself obvious or intuitive. The second consideration is that one way Wikipedia has avoided ambiguity is to strongly disfavour all-numeric dates (8/20/2009 vs 20/8/2009) and instead insist that months be written out in words, or at least abbreviated alphabetically (Aug., Oct., etc.) A numerical date would certainly be a favour to those whose first language isn't English, and would recognize "9" or "09" faster than "September", but it's outweighed in most people's minds by the unambiguous clarity of an alphanumeric date.
Reading the above discussion more closely, maybe where YYYY-MM-DD might fit in articles about astronomy or computer programming, there be a parenthetic clarifying conversion on its first appearance [e.g. "2008-08-20 (August 20, 2009)"]. —— Shakescene ( talk) 21:15, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I was inspired to bring up this subject by the addition of a citation to SVG animation. Anyone checking references on SVG animation entities, if they have not already come to know and love the one true geek date format, will, by the time they finish flicking their eyes up the list. I agree that it is not as immediately obvious as using words, but for those who recognize it, it parses far more quickly and easily in the grey goo than anything involving letters. I actually initially used "20 August 2009" in my citation, as I noticed that is what is automatically generated by Cite web, but then immediately afterward noticed my addition was the only one in the list not using YYYY-MM-DD (and corrected my inconsistency in accordance with this document). I also agree that this date format is far more than a pawn of the ISO.
Communicating with humans vs. computers can be a context switch requiring concerted effort. Date formats involving words are on the wrong side of that context switch for the articles for which I recommend this format. -- Darxus ( talk) 03:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
In short, I don't expect Wikipedia to educate people to get ISO 8601 right, and don't feel that the MOS needs to advocate the use of ISO 8601. On the other hand, I have no problem with a YYYY-MM-DD format in general. TheFeds 17:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
There are three acceptable date formats for a given day (excepting of course quotations): "12 December 2004", "December 12, 2004<some piece of punctuation if it is in prose>" and "2004-12-12" but never in prose and only where space is short. This is one or two more than is desirable, but is something we can work with. Certainly if we all changed to "2004-12-12" tomorrow we would get used to it rapidly and wonder how we got on with the clumsy old style, however WP is not a champion of change - one WP:NOT I do agree with. Rich Farmbrough, 21:28, 21 August 2009 (UTC).
"In general use, people don't often refer to times for which Julian dates are appropriate." sure, in general use people don't often refer to history ... actually it's not that uncommon ... especially on an encyclopædia. I still don't see the use of allowing ISO dates at all. If space is short 12 Dec 2004 or Dec 12, 2004 should be fine. JIMp talk· cont 13:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite}}
recommends the ISO format for references, whereas MOS states the opposite. It is simply impossible to obey both of those;
User:mjroots who I greatly respect said on my talk page that MOS takes precedence, and I can only believe that is true, but can we then fix the advice for reference formats please?. Because I did over 100 reference fixups on [[Electric Car] and put them all in ISO format, not out of wanton pedantry but because I was told to (I fixed up the refs far more than just the dates, but did the dates too) and it is a bit ridiculous that in the article it says e.g. 12 April 1972, my birthday, and in the reference 1972-04-12. I can read and understand that, and it is unambiguous at least to me (largest to smallest) – and, yes, I have lived and worked in the US and Canada and that is why personally I prefer writing 12-Apr-72 as a short form because nobody can then possibly mistake it as being 4 December. However, that is not WP MOS approved style, so I write dates in full or use ISO format when recommended. If {{
cite}}
recommends it and MOS disdains it, then what is a poor gnome to do? It is idle to say oh MOS takes precedence that does not help when one is actually adding access dates and publication dates etc to citations. The simplest solution is to get rid of that recommendation out of {{
cite}}
, but I am not qualified to do that, I only use it.
SimonTrew (
talk) 00:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC){{
Citation}}
template, for which {{
cite}}
is a redirect, does not recommend YYYY-MM-DD format for publication dates, only for access dates. While there may have been technical reasons for the recommendation in the past, I am not aware of any continuing technical reasons, so I have removed that recommendation. --
Jc3s5h (
talk) 01:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)I propose that MOSNUM be permanently locked down. “Consensus by parties of two” and “consensus by who can make forty edits a day” is not a consensus and just makes MOSNUM unstable. Unfortunately, it seems that if there is no teacher in the room, we kindergardeners can get out of hand. Way too much time is being wasted under the current system, which breeds anarchy and where the only remedies are to start big formal ANIs, WQAs, and ArbComs.
Too often, editors come to MOSNUM to change things in order to lend legitimacy to their particular way of doing things in articles they’re working. However, this is often done with an insufficient understanding of the ramifications. This results in edit wars and instability on MOSNUM.
I propose that there be a gate keeper on MOSNUM. There were some nice (very nice) periods where MOSNUM was locked down due to protracted bickering over IEC prefixes and date linking. And in both cases, the admins (MZMcBride and MASEM) did fabulous jobs watching over WT:MOSNUM discussions. What about those discussions? Well, with MOSNUM locked down, suddenly there was an outbreak of peace and tranquility and awfully civil, good-faith discussion. Check out WT:MOSNUM Archive 120 to see how smoooothly things worked back then. All MZMcBride and MASEM had to do was watch over the discussions to ascertain whether what was being proposed was uncontroversial, minor, or was significant but enjoyed a wide consensus. Then they simply copied the proposed verbiage and pasted it into the spot designated by the proposing editor.
How say others? Greg L ( talk) 04:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
MOSNUM guidelines are often the product of long, protracted, evolutionary-like progress. Having editors who just advanced to Junior High and gained access to the computer in the school library come in and change some guideline, like, “everything will be metric-only” (perhaps doing so will smooth our membership into the United Federation of Planets), may seem perfectly rational to that contributor. I can think of better things to do than go to MOSNUM and start counting reverts-per-24-hour period. Or explaining (again and again) what “consensus” means. And, sometimes, some editors in real life don’t have a social bone in their body and that behavior manifests itself here. So we end up reverting a change on WP:MOSNUM and then going through endless and circuitous arguing here on WT:MOSNUM until someone gets shot for a whole 24 to 48 hours. I have no illusions that this will end. (*sigh*) Greg L ( talk) 20:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to point out here a clause from Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking:
Because I don't read this discussion page on a regular basis (I only learned about this thru reading the current Wikipedia Signpost), enforcing this now would be inappropriate, so I ask my fellow Admins that any time Greg L comments on anything related to MOSNUM he is violating the terms of this ruling & is liable to sanctions. (PS, while he is not the only one who is banned from this topic, he was the one who initiated this thread.) -- -- llywrch ( talk) 16:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm afraid that ArbCom motions and amendments are often framed poorly by arbs who have far too big a workload and too little time, on- and off-wiki. Nevertheless, the intent is clear: Greg and several others may not edit the sections of MOSNUM or MOS or LINKING that are concerned with date linking; nor may they discuss the issue anywhere on the project. However, this probably doesn't prevent their asking others to deal with an issue in articles of which they are a regular editor (Vandenberg's words, to that effect). Aside from that, they may edit and discuss anywhere any aspect of the style guides.
Yes, an apology by Llywrch would be much appreciated; it would cost little and foster a harmonious environment here. Please remember that ArbCom is set to examine editor relations and stability on MoS pages rather soon, and has made it clear that any editor here will be scrutinised if necessary. ArbCom regards the good working of the style guides very seriously. Tony (talk) 07:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Just for the information of anyone here who might be interested, there is a discussion at WT:MOS#Wikipedia:Describing drum sizes of a small project by the same name. The project itself ( WP:Describing drum sizes) and discussions about it probably belong on, and will no doubt soon appear on, WP:MOSMUSIC and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (music), respectively. —— Shakescene ( talk) 04:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure why but there is a pull towards using numerals in the MoS, maybe because of the preponderance of "computer types". The MoS used to recommend words for centuries, then it was changed, when I noticed I had, by agreement, the option for words put back in:- then it was taken out again...
AS far as it goes Oxford recommends words as does Chicago "In nontechnical contexts, the following are spelled out: whole numbers from one through one hundred, round numbers, and any number beginning a sentence. For other numbers, numerals are used." (also here Strunk and White 1918 has "It was chiefly in the eighteenth century that a very different conception of history grew up."
To me, numerals looks like note-taking in this context, I expect to see a hastily scrawled C around the number.
However if the three main (?) MoS concur - and the other reasons for abbreviation, saving time, keystrokes and paper are absent - surely we should go with spelled out centuries?
11.6.2. Centuries
Depending on the editorial style of the work, refer to centuries in words or figures; Oxford style is to use words. (p. 191)
9.36 Centuries
Particular centuries are spelled out and lowercased.
There is no need to hyphenate twenty-first to century; except in pathological cases, "Mike Gatting's twenty-first-century scores were not as good as earlier." perhaps. But to argue WP is technical is to have a broad definition of the term. Indeed I would aver that the only narrowly technical use of "19th century" might be calibrating a time machine. The Oxford I refer to is The Oxford Style Manual which incorporates The Oxford Guide to Style. Proof by Google is not helpful either technically ( try for example "nineteenth century" site:.edu ) or stylistically ("fuck" 158 million, "copulate" 380,000 - and that's my excuse for typing "fuck" into search engines). As far as typos go, it is amusing, if not instructive to see "21th century" typed in this discussion, not demolishing the argument, but certainly denting it. The typical use of a century is in a similar manner to a reign, "Jacobean, Elizabethan, nineteenth century" - I have even seen statements where the term has been redefined to fit the needs "when we say eighteenth century in this context we mean from about 1692 to 1780". It is not a measure in the sense that we can say (or we could but we would be ill advised) "the 21.12th century". The numbers are effectively cleansed of their numerical meaning. Rich Farmbrough, 21:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC).
So we now have three editors who prefer nineteenth century, and cite style guides to that effect, to answer the several editors who prefer 19th century, and quote no authority. On balance, doesn't this support the position that both have their uses in different fields? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)