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Because of this, I would default to the int'l format (9 September 2009) for dates within the article. (And yes, I started the article with US dates, but I'd argue its fair to go the int'l route) -- MASEM ( t) 12:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe there is, but it's pretty long ... how is it set? Tony (talk) 15:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Have a shuftie at these when distances are given they are given as miles from main terminus (generally london), in miles chains and feet. You can't go changing that to metric cos thats how it is written by the track. There is an enormous consistency in these articles and always in imperial with conversions. SimonTrew ( talk) 23:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed WP:VPT#Date issues that pointed out that June 16 2009 is being linked but not formatted. Has something been changed in the date autoformatting function? — Ost ( talk) 18:15, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Please see Template_talk:Death_date#Leading_zeros_in_days. I've reported a minor issue with the {{ death date}} template but had no answer. To fix it just needs a user with an understanding of template logic to copy over the relevant part of {{ birth date}} to not show leading zeros. Thanks Rjwilmsi 16:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia rightly strives for both consistency and diversity in usage. In some cases this means making a choice between competing usages; in other cases, the differing usages are accepted. So, the differences between British and American spelling is accommodated, while, sensibly, the rules state that individual articles should be internally consistent. The same rule applies to weights and measures, only here we generally need to supply both SI and Imperial/US Customary units for the sake of readers who often are not familiar with one or the others.
However, there is a problem with inconsistency between similar articles, which can quite arbitrarily swing between metric and Imperial/US Common measures. This may be seen in the following table:
Metric first | Imperial first |
---|---|
Now a certain amount of inconsistency is inevitable when editors have different preferences for weights and measures, but these variations are more Monty Python than encyclopedic. Now I know full well that we can't impose a rigid rule on people. However, I believe that we could put in place guidelines that would nudge editors towards more consistency. I suggest that the following wording be considered:
Add to the principles:
Revise this point from this:
to this:
What do other editors think?
I agree that we can't impose a rigid rule on people. However, the Style Manual can make recommendations. For instance, the style manual recommends that SI units should generally be preferred. It also recommends that articles should be internally consistent. I believe that the style manual could make it clear that these rules apply to British articles, while not labouring the point. Michael Glass ( talk) 05:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
A solution to the problem outlined above is to state explicitly that SI and SI-related units should be preferred in UK based articles. At the same time I stated that US articles have conversions to SI units. This is also stated in the Conversions section that follows. It is also standard practice in US-based articles and is a description rather than a prescription. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Glass ( talk • contribs)
If people don't like the most recent change, or feel it needs more discussion, so be it. The change wasn't to metricate the UK but to deal with the excessive variation in UK-based articles in Wikipedia. I have restored the wording to what was there when I made my most recent change. Michael Glass ( talk) 09:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
SI-ified Canada where floor-sizes for apartments/houses are given in square feet, where you buy butter in 454-gram blocks, where cans of "pop" come in 355 ml (i.e. 12 US fl oz) sizes but bottles of beer are 341 ml (i.e. 12 imp fl oz), where you write/print/photocopy on 11 by 8½ inch paper, where per kilogram prices at the grocery are fine print conversions of the per pound price ... anyhow ...
It seems to me that the easiest way around this is to use the source units & when these are mixed with no one system predominating go with metric/SI. JIMp talk· cont 10:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
In reply I want to make four points:
1. The phrase "broadly accepted" The discussion above shows clearly why the words "broadly accepted units" are a problem: there is no agreement about what broadly accepted units are. Besides, it's an example of weasel wording to say "broadly accepted units" and then state that SI units are usually broadly accepted. Hans Adler's argument that SI is not broadly accepted is an argument against this contentious wording. In place of the complex and contentious wording of the moment, I recommend the following wording:
Hans has drawn attention to some exceptions to this general rule. The wording above takes account of exceptions such as the difference in the speed limits in Ireland and the territorial limits measured in nautical miles. It even takes account of the US preference to put US customary measures first in US-specific articles. It simply states clearly that metrics should generally be preferred, while making clear provision for exceptions and other units to be included where necessary.
2. Monty Python variations Let's leave aside variations in usage in articles. Most people agree with general policy which says that articles should be internally consistent. However, the present policy on UK-based articles is to leave it to individual editors to determine which measures to use. The result is a number of grotesque inconsistencies, where Jersey goes metric and Guernsey sticks to Imperial measures. Ditto Cornwall and Devon, Cambridgeshire and Oxfordshire and so on. My solution to this is the following wording:
If distances in the UK must be in miles, it takes no account of other measures such as the height of hills or mountains and the area of counties. Now if we had distances in miles and other measures in metres or square kilometres, we would have the very mixture of units in Wikipedia articles that present policy rejects. Better to recommend putting the metric values first in Wikipedia articles. Over time, this might help to reduce the Monty Python variations in the articles. Remember, this is about articles in Wikipedia, not road signs in the UK.
3. US Articles At the moment, US articles are pretty good at including metric measures along with the US customary measures. The wording I propose would support this practice. The present wording says:
This wording hints that SI units would be provided, but it doesn't state it outright. Now policy is not the place for weasel wording. If it is policy and practice to have US customary measures followed by SI measures, then better to state this outright. That is why I prefer
Yes it's longer, but it's more in line with current practice.
Use source material units Sounds simple and easy. However, sources will vary, and if you put them together in an article, you are likely to get inconsistencies both between articles and within articles. So there are problems with this argument.
I hope that this has clarified what wording I want and why I recommend it to MOSNUM. My argument is about wording, not about metrication in the UK, Ireland and Canada. Michael Glass ( talk) 21:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- All other things being equal, it is preferable to use units consistently in an article, for example: A 10 kg (22 lb) bag of potatoes and a 5 kg (11 lb) bag of carrots, or A 22 lb (10 kg) bag of potatoes and a 11 lb (5 kg) bag of carrots, rather than A 22 lb (10 kg) bag of potatoes and a 5 kg (11 lb) bag of carrots or A 10 kg (22 lb) bag of potatoes and a 11 lb (5 kg) bag of carrots.
- Defined values (as opposed to measurements), and high-precision measurements, should be given first in the original units with conversions following in parentheses, for example: When the metric system was adopted in Ireland, speed limits in built up areas were changed from 30 mph (48 km/h) to 50 km/h (31 mph), or The 10-mile (16 km) optical fiber cable between Pasadena and Los Angeles has a core diameter of 8 micrometers (0.00031 in) and a cladding diameter of 125 micrometers (0.0049 in).
-- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 00:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I have no problem with your arguments, A. di M, and the examples that you give. As you can see from the wording that I have proposed, there is room enough for such genuine exceptions. That is why I have used the word generally, to make room for these very exceptions. In fact, I explicitly mentioned the change in the Irish speed limits as one obvious exception. If these genuine examples need more detailed treatment in the Manual of Style, let's see what needs to be done. However, this is not the problem with so many UK-based articles. The issue is one of unnecessary variation. Take South Ulst: metrics first; go to North Ulst and it's Imperial first in the text and SI first in the text box. Why should two Outer Hebrides islands have such varying usages? Why should Oxfordshire differ from Cambridgeshire? Why should Devon differ from Cornwall? It makes no sense, and it is the inevitable outcome from a policy which said, "Choose your own weights and measures!"
Now what I propose is a simple change that will, in time, help to lessen this policy-driven confusion in Wikipedia: a simple statement that says, "UK-related topics may have either SI (generally preferred) or imperial units as the primary units." It's a recommendation, not an order, and it applies to Wiki articles on the UK, not the UK itself. Hopefully, over time, it will help to overcome this unnecessary inconsistency in these Wikipedia articles. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Let's deal with the issues one by one.
1. Clear and straightforward English
a. In general, prefer units approved by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM).
b. In general, prefer broadly accepted units. Usually this means units approved by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM).
Version A gives the same message in one sentence instead of two.
Version A is clear, straightforward and direct; version B is woolly and verbose.
Version B invites people to debate on what is or what is not "broadly acceptable" where it is broadly acceptable and where it is not, whether SI is broadly acceptable or whether US customary Units and Imperial units are or are not broadly acceptable and when and where and so on ad infinitum. Version A, which is clearly more direct and straightforward, doesn't go into this conundrum. So this is a change to sidestep a problem in the wording.
2. This particular phrasing
Unclear reference. Which particular phrasing were you referring to? How and why was it weaker?
3. Monty Python variation
Claimed to be a non-issue. Others claim it is a minuscule problem. I beg to differ. I think it makes Wikipedia look less than professional to have apparently random variation in similar articles. If it was just a few articles, it perhaps would not matter, but this Monty Python variation applies to so many articles.
a. UK-related topics may have either SI (generally preferred) or imperial units as the primary units.
b. UK-related topics may have either SI or imperial units as the primary units.
Both allow SI or Imperial units to come first, but the first one gives a clear preference for the SI version. In time this will help to rid the encyclopedia from unnecessary variation in UK-based articles. What's the problem with that? If unnecessary variation is such a non-issue, why do you have such an issue with it? Michael Glass ( talk) 08:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Obviously there is no point in pursuing consensus when no consensus exists, or in recommending consistency when others are satisfied with the opposite. Nevertheless, I think I should point out a few things:
Michael Glass ( talk) 01:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
We have to deal with the fact, that units of measurement are always going to be a bit messy. For example, I'm Australian, which is more metricated than the US or Canada or UK or Ireland, though probably not quite as much as continental Europe is. My weight is in kilograms (I'm too embarrassed to say how many) -- a pound is about 450g, but a stone I have no clue -- but my height is in feet and inches, even though I know it in centimetres too. And, living in Victoria, I drink beer in pints and pots, except in Irish pubs, when its pints and half-pints. When I lived in NSW, it was schooners and midis instead, again except for the Irish pubs, which are pints and half-pints there as well. I'm not that into cars, but my good mate who is, he does 0 to 100 km/h in so many seconds, but his tire pressure is in psi rather than kPa. I've never been to the UK (despite the fact I have a British passport), so I can't say too much about what everyday usage is there. But, let's not think that the UK articles as a whole have to choose Imperial vs. SI. I think, the answer needs to depend on the purpose. My initial suggestion: prefer SI and give Imperial equivalents, except for distances; there prefer Imperial and give SI equivalent. I'd guess, from what I know (which is reading rather than first hand) that reasonably represents the situation on the ground in the UK. Remember, its mostly geographical measurements that count here, since articles that use fluid or weight measurements are less likely to be country-specific. -- SJK ( talk) 06:06, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Michael Glass ( talk) 12:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe that it is against Wikipedia policy to mix measures in one article (sure, this page mentions consistency but as one bullet amongst many (possibly conflicting) and this page is a guideline). In fact, there sometimes are good reasons to do so (the Irish speed limits, for example). JIMp talk· cont 11:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I think I understand the issue that Michael Glass is raising. The guidance provides for within-article consistency. In the case of the US, it provides for between-article consistency. In the case of the UK, the guidance actually prevents between-article consistency. Lightmouse ( talk) 19:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
At the moment, the MOSNUM policy on US measures reads as follows:
This is modified by the policy on conversions:
In a quick reading of the policy, a reader might miss the recommendation to provide conversions, as it occurs in a slightly different part of the policy. I would therefore suggest a clarification in the wording that would make such a reading much less likely. I suggest this wording:
This version, which makes explicit what is implicit in the first version, has the following features.
This last feature is of growing importance. As time goes on, knowledge of customary measures in most English-speaking countries is diminishing, as the older generations die off and are replaced by people who grew up after the metric conversion had taken place. India changed to the metric system in the early 1960s, Australia and New Zealand changed in the 1970s and that means that Australians under the age of 40 are unlikely to be very familiar with the older units. Also, unlike the United States and the UK, where students are educated in both sets of weights and measures, the children only learn metric measures. So the conversion factors from customary measures to metrics are of much greater importance.
I would be interested in people's feedback on this proposal. Michael Glass ( talk) 09:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for raising those points. The policy on conversions is covered in the section on unit conversions:
As you can see, this provision covers conversions both to and from metric and US customary/Imperial units.
A second point is about the text of the proposed change. In this case, the only proposed change in the text was to one sentence, where the rest of the policy was not changed. That is why I gave only the proposed change and not the whole text, which, of course, is just one click away. I am sorry you gained the impression it was to eliminate the requirement for conversions from SI into US customary units. This is certainly not the case. The revision that I have proposed here does not touch this provision, which would be unchanged by my proposal.
I hope this answers all your concerns. If not, please write again. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I think that your wording reads better. Thanks. Michael Glass ( talk)
Wording changed as per the discussion above. "However:" re-inserted to complete the sentence. Michael Glass ( talk) 22:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
At the moment the policy instructs us in one place to "prefer broadly accepted units". However, the policy does not define what broadly accepted units are, except to state that it usually means SI and related units. The wording is problematic for the following reasons.
Therefore it could be argued that the phrase "broadly acceptable" is at best problematic or even that it is a nonsense, as no units are broadly acceptable in any meaningful way. The phrasing is also obscure (we don't know or have different ideas about what is "generally acceptable". It is also verbose. If it says something meaningful, it takes too many words to say it.
I suggest this wording:
It is shorter, it is clear and it is to the point. It states present policy, clearly pointing out the exceptions to the general rule. I can't see any problem with it. However, others might be able to suggest some improvements. What do others think? Michael Glass ( talk) 22:59, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
It is necessary to read the policy on units of measurement as a whole. The third principle of using units of measurement reads as follows:
This states a general preference for metric units with two exceptions. So existing policy is not a free-for-all, where usage may be decided on a per article or per topic basis. According to the existing guidelines, it is to be metric except for US articles and some UK articles. The phrase "broadly acceptable" is problematic not only because it is vague and open to interpretation, it is also at odds with existing policy, which makes clear recommendations about which system of weights and measures to put first.
We have units determined on a per-article basis in Wikipedia's UK articles. Here, as I have demonstrated, the choice of measures is all over the shop. I think we should be working to reduce, not increase, this kind of unnecessary variation. The policy states a general preference for SI and related units, but make it clear what the exceptions are. This clear recommendation should not be muddled by an ambiguous phrase.
My suggestion, rather than changing current policy, clarifies it. It removes a phrase that is not only vague but is misleading, because it can be read in a way that is at odds with current policy. However, I agree with Headbomb that policy is a recommendation rather than a prescription. Michael Glass ( talk) 22:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I have now revised the wording in accordance with the proposal above. However, I have also dropped two unnecessary words from the second sentence to make the passage flow better. Michael Glass ( talk) 05:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I note this reversion and the reasons given to justify it.
In short, the reasons given for the reversion simply don't stand up to scrutiny. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the first bullet, the Greenbox's discussion was chaotic and mixed with the red box's and the purplebox's. If you feel like reading everything, you'll see that the opposition was centered on whether it allowed IEC prefixes or not. See also the redbox with is provision of familiarity. Opposition to that was be on people thinking it mean that it did not allow for following current litterature (aka if snail racing uses furlongs per forthnight as their unit of speed, use furlong per forthnight). Concerning the second bullet, there isn't a single thread about that specifically, but there are many in which the provision has been interpreted by many (all) people to mean what I'm to mean use the generally accepted units, whatever those are. And what "whatever those are" are is to be decided on a per article basis (or per-topic basis). You don't have consensus to change this phrasing, so don't change it. This version stood unphased for over nine months, which must be a record of some sort. It's up to you to demonstrate their is consensus to change the phrasing, which you didn't do.
Headbomb {
ταλκ
κοντριβς –
WP Physics}
11:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, Headbomb and A. di M. I read your comments with interest. I am afraid we are speaking at cross-purposes. Let me explain.
For Dorothy in Kansas, generally accepted units applies to the customary units that she has grown up with. Ditto for Sally in Saskatchewan and Christina in Chihuahua, except that the units they regard as generally accepted are different from Dorothy's. And as for Lucy in London, no units are generally accepted. She uses different units for different purposes, and she knows not to mention the metre to Colonel Blimp, her uncle, or the mile to cousin Milton, who's a metric fanatic. So Dorothy's certainty and clarity dissolves into a fog of uncertainty once you use that phrase in a global context.
When you think about the word general it is clear to you what you mean. However, from an international perspective your general actually means particular. So for me, your meaning turns general into particular and local and the phrase dissolves into confusion.
It's the same problem that you face if you use the seasons to refer to times of the year. For you, Christmas is in winter and Easter is in spring but that's not the case for me, where Christmas is in summer and Easter is in autumn. Why? I live in the Southern Hemisphere, where your natural order of seasons is turned on its head. in Singapore or Jamaica there are no seasons at all and in Darwin, Australia, there are just two seasons: the Wet and the Dry. So while seasons are real, they are not the same everywhere, and they are not universal, and in Wikipedia articles you can't use them to refer to periods of time..
So that's why the phrase, generally accepted units is problematic: it means different and conflicting things to different people, and for people like Lucy in London, it's a nonsense. And that is also why you find it so hard to give a credible example of a generally accepted unit. When pressed, the concept generally accepted unit dissolves into confusion, because in the global context there is no such thing. If there really were generally accepted units, we wouldn't need a policy about which units to use.
I can understand that the phrase generally accepted units has meaning for you. However, on a global scale - and Wikipedia is global - the phrase becomes contradictory and nonsensical for other readers. And that's what makes it problematic for Wikipedia. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:12, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
All these are covered by the qualifier, In general.... However, if you feel that this is not sufficient, then I have no objection to your phrase, Units generally accepted for the topic to be added. Michael Glass ( talk) 06:29, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Having thought about Headbomb's comments above for several days, it appears to me that we may be arguing at cross purposes. What I take generally acceptable units to mean is units that are used in a wide variety of ways, such as the common SI and related units and US customary and Imperial units that are widely used in Great Britain and the United States. What Headbomb referred to was mostly scientific terms that are generally used in some particular contexts. So though we were using the same term (generally accepted units) we were thinking of quite different things. In other words, we were arguing at cross purposes. This could explain why we kept on talking past each other.
What I said all along was that the term generally accepted units was problematic, because it meant different things to different people. It appears to me that this applies to Headbomb and me, because we had different things in mind when we used this term. If so, it goes to show that the term is even more problematic than I gave it credit for being, and that is another good reason for getting rid of it.
In my previous comment, I stated my belief that the qualifier In general... covers the kind of units that Headbomb raised. I note that Headbomb has not rushed to say that this is not the case. However, this qualifying phrase may not be strong enough for him and others. Here, therefore is another proposal:
As you can see, this proposal deletes the problematical phrase, generally accepted units. However, it takes full account of the objection that Headbomb raised by referring to the scientific and sporting measurements that he drew attention to. The sentence that I have bolded should adequately cover the concerns that Headbomb raised in his comments and we and perhaps others could agree on this change of wording. Michael Glass ( talk) 10:40, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
The first comment is about BIPM pushing. It makes being in favour of the metric system sound like drug pushing! Not exactly the language that one would expect from a dispassionate observer. Not exactly expressed in a friendly way, either. However, there's no question that the wording does - Shock! Horror! - favour the Metric System. In fact, it favours SI as much as the following statements:
And where do these BIPM pushing statements come from? Why, our very own Manual of Style (dates and numbers)! I believe that my suggested wording, "In general, prefer units approved by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM)," is much the same.
However, you do make some valuable criticisms about the wording that I proposed. My solution to the problem you raise is to change the sentence to include other measurements. If you want to include nautical miles and gem cutting and other measures, then instead of taking a combative stance, let us work together to find a way to express it in a way that is not so problematical. One way of putting it may be to say,
Some specialized measures are expressed in units other than SI and related units.
That, I reckon, should cover any measures that may be raised. My problem with the phrase "generally accepted units" remains. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Not exactly a polite response, is it? As I explained repeatedly, there are problems with the wording "generally accepted units". You state you have a workable solution for the problem I have raised with the wording. Then please write it out in full so that I can consider it in context. Michael Glass ( talk) 06:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Once again, another rude response from someone cringing behind an assumed name, who, when confronted with his bad manners has made it clear that he doesn't care. "In the field" means nothing. "Generally accepted units in the field" is gobbledegook. For the second time I request that Headbomb quotes his proposed wording in context. Then we might be able to make some sense of it. Michael Glass ( talk) 10:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
There is a firm recommendations that articles on Wikipedia should generally have SI and related units first. However, for US - based articles, US customary units are to come first and for UK - based articles, the primary units can be either SI or Imperial units. As a result, there are firm guidelines for editors except for UK-based articles, where there is a free-for-all, with the inconsistencies that I have documented.
At present, MOSUM's wording is:
This, I believe, has resulted in allowing inconsistencies between similar UK articles to an extent that is not seen elsewhere in Wikipedia.
So what can be done?
We obviously can't tell British editors that they must use metric measures or that they must go back to using Imperial measures. That is simply not on. However, we can advise or recommend or suggest that more consistency would be preferable. Something like this may help:
This wording explains the rationale for the policy. It explains that it is about Wikipedia articles. It is framed as a recommendation and not a rule, and it specifically retains the provision that UK articles may still be Imperial first - even though the use of SI is recommended.
How do other editors feel about this proposed change in wording and policy. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Have a look at the top of this current section. What would you do to remedy the variation in usage that I have documented? How could you force Imperial only (or SI only) on editors? Should Wikipedia be bound by the road signs in England? Michael Glass ( talk) 13:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
The question is not about whether the UK should convert to the metric system but whether we should encourage UK articles on Wikipedia to be more consistent in their display of units. It is not good practice to have measures all over the place, where Devon and Cornwall, Oxfordshire and Cambridgeshire, the Shetlands and the Orkneys differ on whether they put metric or Imperial measures first. It is not rational to have metric first in the articles on East and West Falklands, but Imperial first in the article on the Falkland Islands. That is a Monty Python parody, not good practice for an encyclopedia. Michael Glass ( talk) 22:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Have you asked the opinions of people at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United Kingdom and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Measurement? -- 80.104.235.96 ( talk) 23:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
First I would like to thank Wjemather, Hans Adler and 80.104.235.96 for their comments.
I believe that something can and should be done to help overcome this excessive variation, and that is a simple statement that SI and related units are recommended or at least suggested for consistency's sake. However, we must also make it clear that both SI and Imperial units should be supplied. And this, at least, should be much easier to reach consensus on. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
A. di M., articles on the UK are of general interest. It is an advantage that they be widely understood. The use of both Imperial and metric units will assist. It would also help if there was more consistency in their presentation. A suggestion in the Manual of Style could help this process. Also, please note that my proposal would be a general guide, not a straitjacket. It's trivialising the question to talk about measuring distances between London and Oxford in sheets of A4 paper. The real world uses SI and Imperial/US customary measures. It is not asking too much that there is some more consistency in their presentation in UK -based Wikipedia, just as there is elsewhere.
Wjemather, my proposals do not make the sweeping statement that SI units are preferred. The statements I have proposed are qualified to make room for exceptions, the biggest exception being the United States. I agree that the MOS has not been applied consistently. Most people who edit on Wikipedia wouldn't even look at it. Nevertheless, a recommendation for consistency will have some effect over time, and that is what makes it worthwhile to consider. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
It's good that we agree that conversions should be provided. I think that should be stated clearly for UK articles, just as it is for US articles. It seems we differ on whether UK articles should be encouraged to be more consistent. I can see no harm in that, but you are concerned that distances in UK articles should give miles first, because that is the way that British roads are signed. I actually have some sympathy with that view, provided there was consistency with the other measures. However, that is not the state of UK articles, where some are metric first, some are not and some are mixed. The present policy simply leaves it to individual editors to decide which units to put first. All I propose is a suggestion that SI be put first for the sake of consistency, and if greater consistency could be achieved by making an exception for road distances, then that would be an improvement on the present state. However, we should remember that policy insists on consistent use of measures within articles, so this could be a sticking point. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I think we should get back to the question at issue: a suggested change in policy to encourage more consistency. It's not about the British Empire, or the European Community or even the Metric System. It's about a suggested change in policy to encourage more consistency. I think more consistency should be encouraged but different wording might prove more acceptable. On the other hand, some editors might be quite happy with the status quo. What do people want, a Monty Python free-for-all, or a policy that encourages more consistency?. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Wjemather fears that the situation of weights and measures in the UK is so complex that Wikipedia should go along with common local usage. This presumes that because the article on Jersey gives precedence to metric measures and Guernsey is Imperial, that this reflects the feelings of the people who live in these islands. I doubt it. It's probably more to do with the individual preferences of the authors of the articles than any local preference. It also presumes that these articles are only read by the locals, so that the needs of young Australians (who would want metric measures) and Americans (who would want the customary measures) count for nothing. Here is a proposal that has a chance to satisfy the broadest possible audience:
This proposal gives something for almost everyone. There are imperial units for those who want them, SI units for the rest and internal consistency for the fastidious. However, it does nothing to sort out the Monry Python mess that I have drawn attention to. To deal with that I would suggest the following:
What do people think about these suggested wordings? Also - and I stress - the recommendation for SI and related units is a suggestion and not an order. Michael Glass ( talk)
- UK-related topics should generally display SI units first, with imperial conversions provided in brackets, but with the following exceptions: distances, speed, aircraft altitude, personal measurements (height and weight), all of which should be be displayed using imperial first with metric conversions given.
First of all, I did not quote wjemather. The complexity of British usage of weights and measures does not fully explain why there are such inconsistencies between individual articles. As I said, this probably has more to do with the preferences of individual editors of the articles. If, however, I inadvertently misrepresented his views, then I am sorry.
Secondly, I do not agree that Wikipedia is necessarily bound to go along with common local usage no matter how complex it is. Wikipedia is international, and therefore some adjustment has to be made to take account of this fact
Thirdly, I agree that UK-related topics should generally display SI units first, with imperial conversions provided in brackets. However, a great list of exceptions would largely negate the policy. Worse, it would result in even more inconsistency, only this time there would be inconsistency within articles, something that is against Wikipedia policy.
Fourthly, the advice to use "square miles over square kilometres (but use hectares and square metres over acres and square feet)" is a recipe for confusion.
Fifthly, it would make more sense to give both litres per 100km as well as miles per Imperial gallon. It should be noted that the Imperial gallon is obsolete in almost every place where it was once used, that it was never used in the United States and that it is largely obsolete even in Great Britain. MPG is now an orphan measure now that fuel in the UK is sold by the litre.
So though I welcome Pfainuk's support of the Metric System, I fear that his exceptions would prove unworkable. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, thank you for your thoughtful, detailed and measured response. I feel I should make the following points:
To respond to Hans Adler, I believe it is essential that distances be expressed in both units and would prefer that SI came first. To respond to wjemather, I understand that using units consistently means that all measures in an article be expressed with either metric measures coming first or with Imperial measures coming first. If buildings are measured in metres but people are measured in feet and inches, this, in my opinion, is inconsistent. Having stated my interpretation of the policy - which is to take the words to mean what the words say - I can see that this might prove impossible with UK articles, because people in the UK use SI for some things and Imperial measures for others. For example, in the article on the Falkland Islands, distances are given in miles first but temperatures are given in degrees Celsius without conversion into Fahrenheit. However, as Hans Adler believes that there is consensus for conversions to be supplied in UK articles, I have changed MOSNUM accordingly. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
That revision lasted about 5 minutes before it was reverted to what was before. So much for assuming consensus. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Now I understand why Monty Python comes from England. Consistency taken to mean inconsistency. Now I reckon I've heard it all. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
This is really getting disruptive now. [5] This edit by Michael Glass combined two things:
Michael Glass, whether you like it or not, the system of units currently used in the UK is a hybrid of the metric and Imperial systems. Since the Imperial system is clearly not an option for UK articles except some historical ones, your change would basically legislate complete metrication of the majority of UK-related articles. You are not going to succeed with this, and I suggest you stop before we start discussing whether you need to be banned for trolling.
As to the meaning of "consistency" here: UK articles should (with some exceptions such as history articles) consistently use the hybrid system that is used in the UK. And where that system offers a choice between Imperial and metric units, and article should make this choice consistently, but possibly for each unit separably. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Monty Python. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 12:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Even better, let's just define inconsistent as meaning the same as consistent. Michael Glass ( talk) 21:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
It is obvious that this particular discussion has got nowhere. However, I want to comment on this statement:
Accepted, though this doesn't have to mean that Wikipedia has to do the same.
Rejected. The change suggested explicitly said that either SI or imperial units could come first. It also said that the articles should be internally consistent. The belief that this would basically legislate complete metrication of the majority of UK-related articles is groundless. How Hans Adler could get his interpretation from my wording is a puzzle to me, unless it could be attributed to the recent full moon.
Having worked himself into a lather over an imaginary danger he lashes out with a crazy threat. However, I put Hans Adler on notice that I do not take kindly to those who try to bully me. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the following wording is unnecessarily vague:
Region-specific: meaningless, as the region is not supplied.
The wording is better expressed:
at least with this wording you know where the non-international units are to be used.
Of course it would be better to specify SI and related units. Michael Glass ( talk) 21:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
The argument about historical articles and Ancient Egypt only applies if the wording said, "use SI units exclusively." All I have proposed is to use SI units so I can't see the problem. In the case of crude oil, there appears to be two measures. One is the barrel (42 US gallons) and the other is the metric measure. I really don't think the sky would fall if the metric measure was put first. However - and correct me if I am wrong - we might both agree it would be an improvement if the article was consistent in its use of barrels and the metric measures.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant in deciding whether the policy should say "region specific" (and then neither mention or define this specific region) or specify that this applies to US and some UK specific topics. I can't understand why people would want to obfuscate the wording for no apparent logical reason. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
When quoting texts you quote them verbatim. So if you were quoting an ancient text referred to an ancient measure you would quote it and then translate the measurement into modern terms, putting that measurement in square brackets. Anyway, the controversial text has been removed from the policy altogether so there is no point in discussing it further. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
This whole section began as a discussion about whether MOSUM should read:
Then someone removed the entire sentence from the article. Now we have no guidance in MOSNUM as to what units should apply world-wide. Not a smart move. I believe that either sentence would be better than nothing, even though I think the second one is too vague.
In deciding this question we would not be considering whether or not the UK should or would or could complete its metric changeover; we would be considering the wording that would set Wiki policy for the use of weights and measures in most of the rest of the world. Michael Glass ( talk) 06:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Instead of discussing the wording, the discussion has veered onto my agenda. As Tony said, my agenda is to improve Wikipedia. Yes, I think it would be better to have more consistency in the use of weights and measures. However, that does not mean that I want to ride roughshod over other people's opinions and rights. Why am I being demonised? Because people with another agenda are fighting tooth and nail against anything they see as a threat to their point of view. Pfainuk (above) makes it clear that UK people feel comfortable with using metric measures for some things and Imperial measures for other things. However, that was not at issue. What was at issue was the policy that should apply to Wiki articles about the rest of the world. Let's go back to the wording:
As I stated, I prefer the first over the second, because region-specific is too vague. So let's discuss the wording rather than people's agendas. Michael Glass ( talk) 08:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand how you could want a policy could be purposefully vague. Flexible, yes, but not vague! If the policy read "Use international units with regional considerations as appropriate," it would be something as vague as the Oracle of Delphi, and capable of as many interpretations.
But let's do it a different way. Let's try being as specific as possible, while leaving as much wiggle room as necessary. What if the policy read:
This wording would cover other international units, such as measuring horses by hands or oil by barrels or earthquakes by the Richter Scale or whatever other things are necessary. It would also cover national units, such as the US customary units and the Imperial units that are in use in the UK and its dependancies. Would that satisfy your requirements? If it does not, please explain why not. And when I ask for an explanation, I don't mean sloganeering. I want specific examples of where the wording is problematical Michael Glass ( talk) 11:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
What a breath of fresh air! Someone other than the usual three debaters expressing an opinion! In the case of language, the advice of the Manual of Style is quite appropriate. However, when it comes to weights and measures, SI and related measures are not only the accepted standard over most of the world but SI is the standard for science and increasingly the standard for industry. This does not mean that SI should be used to the exclusion of other measures but it does mean that SI's place should be recognised.
In reply to WJmather, I agree that I should have used the word "guidance" rather than "policy". However, I believe that the guidelines need to be clear rather than vague. About the claim of SI pushing, I think that this is a mixture of both wisdom and silliness. It is wise in alerting me to the fact that the wording needs to be improved, but silly in treating SI like some kind of virus that must be resisted. I am also interested in your use of "we". Yes, I know that there are three people who have opposed me here. However, that doesn't mean three people speak for the whole of Wikipedia, even if those three think they do.
But let's get back to the wording.
Now I think that should cover just about any situation where units other than SI units may be used:
It anything is overlooked, please let me know. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
First, I would like to thank all those who commented on my draft wording. It's great to be working on the wording in a co-operative manner. As there is concern about the guideline and what it says, here is a link to the section [7] and here is an extract of what I believe is the crucial part of the guideline for understanding the proposed wording with one clause in italics: _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
== Units of measurement ==
The use of units of measurement is based on the following principles:
* International scope: Wikipedia is not country-specific; apart from region-specific topics, use international units.
If there is trouble balancing these bullets, consult other editors through the talk page and try to reach consensus.
===Which units to use===
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ My proposed wording was to replace the third bullet point - the one I have placed in italics with these words (also italicised).
* Wikipedia is International; in general, apart from US and certain UK related topics, use SI and related units, supplemented, where appropriate, with other national or internationally used units.
I hope that this puts it into context for everyone, though I do urge people to look at the policy as a whole. Now for the questions that have been raised:
Here is my proposal, revised in the light of the comments above:
* Wikipedia is International; in general, apart from US and certain UK related topics, put SI and SI related units first, supplemented, where appropriate, with other national or internationally used units.
The changes are bolded.
What do others think? Michael Glass ( talk) 10:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Saying that you couldn't use minutes, hours, days and years under SI is a load of bovine manure. [8]. To argue this way is nonsensical. However, if people on MOSNUM are determined to stand against the world-wide system, they are welcome to it. I have tried my best to work out a wording that would deal with any rational objection to my words. This is my last attempt.
The words that are bolded are based on the official policy. Michael Glass ( talk) 09:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
All the exceptions you refer to are covered by the words "in general". I proposed changing the words because they are too vague. "International units" to me suggests SI units in a way that does not come out and say so directly. In any country that uses metric measures, international units would mean SI. That is the problem with the expression '"international units". It means different things to different people.
Where units other than SI are used to measure things such as guitar strings, or hands are used to measure the height of horses, it strikes me as anomalous, like using Roman numerals. These exceptions are covered by the words "in general".
The expression "region specific topics" is so vague and woolly that it doesn't make any sense to me at all. That is why I wanted to sweep away this gobbledegook and replace it with something that makes sense in plain English. But, and this has been made abundantly clear, some editors want the policy to be vague, so there's no point in pursuing it further. Michael Glass ( talk) 13:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
If the wording of the guideline contained the phrase "Internationally accepted units for the topic at hand" it would be much clearer. However, it just reads "international units". Why not put that forward as a suggestion? Michael Glass ( talk) 16:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it's just been added, though I think the passage needs editing. Please see below: Michael Glass ( talk) 04:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
The recently added wording reads as follows:
I would edit this as follows:
My reasons:
In addition:
Michael Glass ( talk) 04:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I note that Headbomb has restored the earlier wording of the introduction. As the words replaced had some merit, I have tried to bring the two versions together to combine the best of both wordings. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Let us look, clause by clause, at the wording that Wjmather rejected:
A is simple, straightforward and short. Why reject this simple wording in preference for a more complicated sentence? Is anything of importance omitted by using B instead of A? I don't think so. All that is lost is ponderous language.
Yes, A is longer but B tells us to aim for the unattainable. No-one can write so they cannot be misunderstood. Why not substitute the more modest aim, to write clearly? But let us say that you were not happy with A or B. Then why not try to recast the sentence? That would require work, of course, and I challenge Wjmather and others to work with me on this wording.
Yes, A is longer, but it points out that different people are familiar with different measurements and that is why both metric and US/Imperial measures should be supplied. B is shorter but I doubt that it is better, because it offers no solution to the problem noted.
Once again A is simpler, more straightforward and shorter. Why reject it in favour of the longer and more ponderous B?
Reverts are easy and quick, of course. However, perhaps if Wjmather and others could work with me we could come up with something that is better than either A or B. What about it? Michael Glass ( talk) 10:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Hans, it seems you have a ready argument for rejecting anything I suggest. If my edit changes the meaning, you reject it; if it doesn't, you dismiss it as a 'minor stylistic tweak' and then reject it anyway, because it changes the meaning. Let us leave aside the changes that you have argued against. I assert that what you call minor stylistic tweaks are an improvement, because they make the language is simpler, clearer and shorter.
Wjemather, it seems you admit to reverting at least one of my changed wordings, not because you disagreed with it, but because it was easier. Thanks a lot.
I will comment on the argument about ancient measures and looking up meanings later. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Hans's criticisms Only one criticism made sense to me.It could be read as saying that all three measurements should be applied. As this is a possiblity I'll withdraw that proposal. However, the points he makes are a very good argument for using SI and related measures, at least as supplementary units, everywhere.
I cannot see how the proposed wording would affect the use of other measures, whether ancient or modern, whether they are troy pounds or barrels of oil or whatever. However, I reject the excuses that personal animosity is a good reason to refuse to cooperate or that Hans finds it wearisome to argue his point of view. Personal animosity is not a logical reason for rejecting proposed wordings.
Wjmather's points Wjmather has admitted that he took the easy way out in reverting my edit in full. Therefore when he writes 'Your changes made no improvement to the current wording,' the statement is self-serving. In at least one case the charge of 'no improvement' is demonstrably false.
I believe that this proposed revision is
Why should we reject it simply because Wjmather took the easy way out? Michael Glass ( talk) 01:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
No more trivial and pointless than your last edit [9]. You are prepared to make what you call minor tweaks to the wording to improve the style; so am I. If you are concerned about breaking style, consider how you could improve bullet 2, which also breaks the style of the other two. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
In fact, I tend to agree with that edit though I feel that "'plus one' and 'minus one'" could be considered. As for quoting the policy on not making personal attacks, I suggest you look at your own behaviour first. For one who is rude and doesn't even care, this wins the prize for gall. Now, about your latest edit. I reverted it because it implies that problems over wording are one-sided. Problems with wording are more often disputes between editors. The policy shouldn't imply that these are one-sided problems. Michael Glass ( talk) 08:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
That's not the way it came across to me, but thanks for your explanation. Michael Glass ( talk) 23:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but there are currently two sections of the manual page entitled "Unnecessary vagueness", one slightly more complexly formatted than the other. There are all kinds of good reasons to avoid identical names in the same article (which is why I hate multiple polls with just "Support", "Oppose" and "Neutral": when I see the edit summary I ask Support what?) Can we at least have consensus about which to delete? —— Shakescene ( talk) 20:53, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone,
I've been following this discussion for some time but not put anything into it. I don't want here to do anything but set down some deliberately vague thoughts that I have taken from this discussion.
As a UK editor and based in the UK but having lived elsewhere I thought I would just add a general rambling discussion, partly as a little comic relief but also maybe to steer us back to the point, which is that we invent units of measure to suit the things we are measuring.
I've been designing units of measure subsystems in computer systems for many years and have heard many of these arguments before, and shan't repeat them. It seems to me Michael Glass has a reasonable argument with the inconsistency between different articles of similar standing (e.g. counties or islands) in the UK. However, that is a general problem in WP: MOS only really says articles should be consistent, not that topics etc should. That is undesirable, but is not specific to numbers: spelling suffers the same problem, and for the same reasons (different authors, subsequent editors, sources, and so forth). Personally I think there should be a broader recommendation that groups of related articles (topics or projects) should have consistency but then that totally hoists the need to discuss it out of MOSNUM (which would be a good thing).
It is incontrovertibly the case that in the UK road distances must be given in miles-- not just on signs but also in written law etc. The same also applies to clearance heights. A swedish lorry driver was cleared of careless driving a couple of years ago because the bridge he hit was not signed in Imperial measure. The fact his cab would have had its height in metres etc was irrelevant. (CN I know.)
Ordnance Survey maps are metric, by the way.
I am thirty-seven. I have no idea how tall I am except in feet and inches. I use SI every day of my working life, and Imperial in my life outside work. I like the dual system, it conveys appropriate imprecision. To say something is 200 yards away gives a rough idea, to say it is 200 metres away sounds very exact.
As always, it seems to me to think of the intended audience (who is likely to be reading this article?) and go from there. SI, even with appropriate rounding, can imply a level of precision that is unwarranted. That is why in all cultures at all times people invent units of measure suitable for the task, be it hands, carats, parsecs, calories (kilocalories), or whatever. The french livre and the spanish libre are different (400g and 500g if I remember it the right way round) but both just mean "a pound" because that's a handy size for measuring butter and fats, some other foodstuffs, stuff like that.
The paper sizes thing is interesting actually, since few who don't really draw would know the measurements, let alone say that an A0 sheeet of paper has an area of a square metre, and that the other sizes are half of that, and the aspect ratio is the square root of 2.
I'm a little surprised at Hans because he seemed to have the most sensible grasp of the UK system of most of the regular contributors to this argument then he says he finds himself converting it (not quoting you verbatim Hans)! That's kinda the point, really. If you give a British person a distance in kilometres mentally they will convert it into miles. I think, at least for people say 30 or under, they are less likely to do that for smaller measures (a metre or below), but still a lot of work is done in inches and feet etc. This is not purely out of spite. If you have a room built to imperial measure, a metric width wallpaper WILL NOT FIT the same as an imperial width wallpaper. I just viewed a house today and the old tiles are imperial and the new ones metric. THEY DO NOT LINE UP. 25mm IS NOT AN INCH. So, some things are kept in Imperial simply because they have to be. Screw threads are another example, as is plumbling: if you have Imperial plumbing and try to fit metric plumbing to it, beware, a compression joint WILL fit (just about), but seal it well or you will have it all leaking out of the joint.
As a small point 100l/km is always used by the manufacturers in the small print (and I think legally must be) but in practice the given figure is always in MPG. One difficulty here with converting (in one's head) is that it is a reciprocal conversion, one can't simply multiply by some rule of thumb (e.g. C to F one can multiply by 2 and add 30, that's about right. It's not spot on, I know the exact conversion, but it does for day-to-day conversation and is very easy to do in one's head).
Residential property guides in the UK virtually always give room sizes in feet × feet and the footprint of the property in (fractions of) acres. I am not sure nowadays about commercial property, that may be slowly moving over to metric, it does seem to be.
Although I use SI all the time at work, from the subatomic level (where again they give way to other units such as Van de Vaals derived units) to astromonical size units, and they're very handy for that kind of thing, my horses still always lose by a short head, my pencil is 2B not measured in Rohms hardness, and so on.
Carpets give an interesting example in that prices are generally given in square yards and metres both. There was a concerted effort in the mid 70s to move it over to metric. However, one large trader realised that a square yard was perceived as pretty much the same as a square metre but the price would seem a lot cheaper-- part of the metrication process was a slogan was "a metre is about three foot three, not much bigger than a yard, you see?" and so of course then all the other traders also followed suit and everyone was soon back on square yards.
I remember when they switched from 1/6 gill to 25ml measures for shorts a lot of pub chains had ads for "new larger measures" even though the difference is only about 5%, and 1/4 gill to 35ml measure is actually a shorter measure (1/4 gill is 35.5ml). It is that kind of thing that makes people very wary of switching to metric. The same happens, of course, with currency changeover (e.g. for the Euro)-- I can't seem to find a good article discussing the worry about that I think the German wikipedia has a good one "Teuro"? (Fat euro or something).
Draught beer and cider MUST be served by a third of a pint, half a pint, or multiples thereof. Milk (and I thought Orange Juice but have never been able to find this) may be served in pints to the doorstep in returnable bottles-- though really to me that is rather irrelevant since one could just as easily deliver 568ml.
Just some rambling thoughts to show that in the UK the use of Imperial measure is not dead, it is not restricted to "those over 75" (I am half that age), it is not anti-European or anything, it is people just using units that make sense in their daily lives. SimonTrew ( talk) 18:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Interesting discussion. I would like to respond to some points.
Actually, this last provision is actually an oversimplification of what really happens in British articles. Some, like Shetland Islands give distances in kilometres while others like Hampstead Heath give the height of the highest hill in feet. The measures really are all over the shop, and that is why I proposed making a recommendation that Wikipedia articles on the UK and its dependancies should generally prefer metric measures. However, this proposal has proved to be quite unacceptable to several editors here, so I won't push it any further in MOSUM.
By the way, there are 1760 yards, 5280 feet and 63,360 inches in a mile. Michael Glass ( talk) 08:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Both the Hampstead Heath and Shetland Islands articles are largely (though not completely) consistent in their use of measures. It would be better to leave them alone than apply some ham-fisted inconsistency of measures on them in the name of consistency. Michael Glass ( talk) 01:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
In response to Pfainuk, I have the following to state:
What I meant by involuntary inconsistency is when the use of units in the UK in 2009 is frozen in aspic and foisted on all, whether they want it or not. I think it is better to leave it to the good sense of editors to make their own arrangements in this transitional period. However, I would add that it is helpful to suggest the use of the metric system. I hope that this makes my meaning clearer. Michael Glass ( talk) 13:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all, I do not believe in imposing on editors either the Imperial or the metric system for UK articles, but rather leave it to the good sense of the editors to choose the units to put first.
There are three things that I would like to recommended about UK articles.
All three together would provide the guidance that is needed with the flexibility that is required. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I think there is some merit in your suggested wording. I'll think this over. Michael Glass ( talk) 03:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all I am impressed by the work you have put into the suggestion above. It has real merit, but I think that the use of units in an article should be largely determined by the use of units in the majority of the sources quoted. Here is a suggested revision of what you proposed:
I have tried to preserve all the good features of your suggested wording, but to put them in a more concise form (72 words instead of 87) but it may still be too long to fit comfortably into the guideline. I look forward to your feedback on this suggestion. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I feel the best clarification would be:
This would help to encourage the use of units based on the sources rather than the whims of individual editors. Michael Glass ( talk) 00:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
What is your problem with finding or verifying sources for information? Michael Glass ( talk) 01:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Do you mean you don't have a problem with finding sources of information and verifying information? Good. End of discussion. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Please note, by the way, when giving examples of inconsistency in Jersey, Guernsey etc the Channel Islands are not part of the United Kingdom. They are a Crown dependency. It is important I think in this discussion to make that distinction, since specifically we seem to have rounded upon use in the UK and in UK articles (the two of which of course overlap). It is wrong to imply, as Michael Glass has done severally in this argument, that they are part of the UK. Similarly to say "Great Britain"-- Northern Ireland, though part of the UK, is not part of Great Britain (it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). Ignoring these distinctions brings detriment to the argument about usage in "UK articles". SimonTrew ( talk) 20:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
What matters is which units of measurement are used in Jersey etc., not any other geo-political stuff. -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 13:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Aircraft height is always in feet, but usually just given as a level e.g. climb to level 250 is 25,000 feet. With modern altimeters, autopilots and so forth, a commercial airliner will be almost bang on to 25,000 feet with an astonishing degree of accuracy (as, say, reported by GPS systems). Of course "height above sea level" depends on the definition of sea level but that is another story. Similarly, distances are in nautical miles which are defined in SI (whatever) as 1852m (the knot, nm per hour, being a derived unit). SimonTrew ( talk) 00:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
This request for comment is for several related questions. This RfC is about the appearance of the numbers, and whether they can be successfully cut-and-pasted into other applications. The templates used to format them is not the topic of this discussion; template coding can follow whatever conclusions the RfC comes to.
The Manual of Style (dates and numbers) (MOSNUM) for quite a while advocated comma separators to the left of the decimal, and either no separators, or gap separators, to the right of the decimal. However, none of the examples in the MOSNUM or in the documentation for the {{ Val}} illustrated that this could occur in the same number, thus creating a style clash within the same number. About a week ago this was changed to allow 4046.8564224 or 4,046.8564224 but not 4,046.856 422 4. Today the change was reverted and the reverting editor suggested wider input be sought.
(In case you are curious where the number 4046.8564224 came from, it is the exact number of square meters in an international acre.) -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 02:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
It is not the job of Wikipedia to promote change in the way the world works by adopting good ideas by standard bodies just because they are good ideas and come from standard bodies. Wikipedia generally simply follows the way the world really works. Truly good ideas from standards bodies usually rapidly gain traction in the real world. When that happens, Wikipedia follows suit. In other cases, such as the IEC’s proposal that the world adopt the new binary prefixes like “256 mebibyte”, the proposal falls on its face. And again, notwithstanding the compelling virtues of the IEC’s proposal, Wikipedia ignores the proposal so as to not confuse our readership. Note also that the rule of SI is to have a space between the number and the percent symbol, such as “50 %” rather than the “50%” we are all accustomed to. Like the rest of the world, we ignore that one too.
As regards the delimiting of large numbers and/or high-precision numbers in all our general-interest articles, Wikipedia specifies the U.S. method of delimiting numbers using commas in the significand because that causes the least confusion with its readership. U.S. readers are far and wide entirely unfamiliar with other delimiting conventions whereas their European counterparts are typically comfortable with several different methods and are not in the least confused by the U.S. convention. Scientific articles are a notable exception, since the language of science is scientific papers which follow the SI method so that such papers can be read by a world-wide audience. Even then, delimiting with narrow spaces is allowed in our scientific articles—not required. Greg L ( talk) 02:19, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Minor correction and comment: I thought the {{ val}} template would close up the gap in a number like 0.1234 but not in a number like 0.1234567. It turns out that it does close up the gap in the latter number to avoid leaving a single digit at the right end of the number. One of the international bodies, the BIPM, in the The International System of Units (SI), (p. 133) indicates the gap may be omitted when there are 4 digits to the left or right of the decimal , but not more than 4. ("However, when there are only four digits before or after the decimal marker, it is customary not to use a space to isolate a single digit.") Of course, since {{ Val}} does not profess to follow any international standard, this behavior can't be regarded as an error. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 02:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
1.1
1.12
1.123
1.1234
1.12345
1.123456
1.1234567
1.12345678
1.123456789
1.1234567890
etc.
I noticed also that you have had difficulty using {{ val}} and have been getting error flags as shown here. Simply omit the commas and it will work fine. Your unfamiliarity with the template may underlie why you are uncomfortable with it.
{{ Val}} produces scientific notation values like this:
Conductance quantum G0 = 7.7480917004(53)×10−5 S. Compare that to the value here at the NIST. They are identical because {{val}} follows the convention used by science for scientific notation.
{{Val}} is smart enough to handle the entire progression of delimiting, up to 14 significant digits, it won’t do a line-end word-wrap anywhere in the equivalency, it uses narrow spaces on both sides of the × symbol, and it even knows to use a true minus sign in the exponent (10−5) instead of the hyphen (10-5) you would get if you simply type it off the keyboard.
Editors are encouraged to use {{val}} because it delimits long, high-precision strings of digits to the right of the decimal marker and provides consistent, well-formatted output.
Your objection seems to be over how it combines the practice of commas to the left, and narrow spaces to the right in numbers that aren’t scientific notation. Indeed, {{val}} follows MOSNUM guidelines for numbers containing four or more digits to the left and delimits them with commas. Your proposed solution (simply adopt the European practice of thin spaces both left and right) is contrary to MOSNUM and is very confusing to U.S. readers.
The simple solution, is rather than try to change the way the world works, is for you to simply not use {{val}} to delimit on the right of the decimal marker for those relatively rare occasions where there are simultaneously four or more digits to the left. You are perfectly free to write 4,046.8564224 rather than the 4046.8564224 {{val}} generates for you. That should make you happy, and it would make me happy. I would encourage you, however, to avail yourself of the {{val}} template. Why? Because, since you are expressing five or more digits to the right of the decimal point, I assume you intend readers to actually read and understand those digits. Delimiting to the right helps to parse those digits just as delimiting with commas to the left helps to parse the digits on that side. Greg L ( talk)
In reply to Greg L's comments above, I see an example in the previously mentioned International System of Units {SI) brochure on page 126 that confirms Greg's belief that it is OK to eliminate the rightmost gap to avoid isolating the last digit after the decimal, even if there are more than four digits to the right of the decimal: 9.109 3826 (16) × 10−31 kg. Still, the vals template does not follow the BIPM/NIST/ISO convention for all cases because for some numbers, it violates the convention: "Neither dots nor commas are inserted in the spaces between groups of three." (ibid. p. 133)
However, I can't accept the idea of not using the val template when a number has both 5 or more digits to the left, and also 5 or more digits to the right of the decimal. It is very common for one template to invoke another template, so the editor who is actually typing the number may not be aware that the val template is being called. It would also be very confusing for an editor who is not especially familiar with the val template, and is just updating a number that was originally put in by someone else. It would be much better to alter the behavior of the val template so it produces acceptable results for any numbers, no special cases. (The problem of high precision numbers in scientific notation is understandable, since it is an issue for representing such numbers in most computer applications.)
As for using thin spaces to the left of the decimal being confusing to the general interest reader, I'm not convinced that is any more confusing than using two different digit grouping marks in the same article. Remember, the context here is an article where some of the numbers have five or more digits to the right of the decimal, so the reader will have to figure out what the thin spaces mean. Given that the reader figures this out, how hard is it to realize the same convention is being used to the left of the decimal? -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 04:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
It's not a matter of changing the world, but rather of serving the needs of the encylopedia most effectively. We ought to do what we can to improve Wikipedia, even if there are prevailing conditions in the wider world that make Wikipedia's style decisions inappropriate elsewhere.
So on the topic of the RfC at hand (starting with item #2), the answers vary depending on the degree to which we're willing to be prescriptive, and conversely, the degree to which we're bound by local convention. I'd suggest that in an encyclopedia with an international audience, we'd be best served by using a number format that is understood in the least ambiguous terms. It just so happens that this is the exact problem that the BIPM convention is designed to address. It's a good system, not simply because respectable authorities recommend it for contexts where interlanguage or international communication might be necessary, but because it's strong on its own merits. (You can't confuse 1,234 and 1.234, most importantly.) It's weakest feature is the fact that American audiences are very likely to be unfamiliar with it. On balance, however, most Wikipedia users are likely to correctly understand numbers formatted in this fashion, even if it takes a moment the first time they see it. As a bonus, the use of CSS allows this number to be copied without digit grouping symbols (i.e. copy 4046.8564224 and the clipboard contains 4046.8564224), makes the number non-breaking, and employs spacing in an unobtrusive and readable fashion. Item #2 is acceptable and preferable (and therefore should always be permitted as an option).
In terms of item #1, I don't particularly like the mixing of delimiting characters, but that's an aesthetic issue with relatively little traction. From a readability perspective, it is superior to not grouping digits on the RHS, because the thousands places are clearly displayed. Given that we will presumably maintain a version of the U.S. customary digit grouping method, I wouldn't be opposed to #1. (I've seen a variant on this using commas on both sides, but I'm informed that in modern U.S. practice this is rare. I wouldn't be opposed to that either.)
For #3, if the output with or without {{ gaps}} would be identical, then there's no need to require the template. If the number needs digit grouping (according to whatever style is in effect), then the output ought to be consistent within the article. I definitely like the concept of {{ val}}, because of its ability to format difficult numbers. Its design is such that for some cases, however, {{gaps}} has to be used, because of technical limitations. We shouldn't mandate converting an article exclusively to one or the other, when both output similarly-formatted results. TheFeds 06:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
…it was extensively discussed and voted upon a bit lower, also here on Archive 94 on WT:MOSNUM, and…
…it was well received here on WT:MOS Archive 97 where its functionality tweaked to a compromise that received broad acceptance.
Also, a main testing sandbox is here on a subpage in my userspace, which also has links to other related sandboxes. Greg L ( talk) 02:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) RexxS, I can see why accessibility is an argument against using commas both to the left and right of the decimal, but I don't see why it would be an argument against using thin spaces to both the right and left of the decimal. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 02:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I was kind of invited to this RFC. Some notes I took during the reading of this discussion:
In the Mile article the number "1,609.344" combines "," and "." and makes this a really confusing number. In school "," was taught as the comma delimiter. Besides the number can't be copy & pasted directly into any other calculation tool. And on a larger level the article just shows that a measurement such as a mile or mph etc.. have an unclear definition in contrast to km/h (1000 meters per 3600 seconds). At least it's not straightforward. Electron9 ( talk) 01:53, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
On June 3, User:TheFeds changed the digit grouping section. I endorse the spirit of the change, but I mercilessly edited it to conform to my understanding of many printed style guides (I suspect my edit reflects what TheFeds had in mind). I wish to call editors attention to the fact that the {{ Val}} template does not conform to the changed MOSNUM, in that it uses commas to the left and thin spaces to the right, even in the same number (e.g. 123456.78901). If this change is accepted, the Vals template can be changed to conform to the change. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 11:53, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
9.59 Comma between digits
In most numerals of one thousand or more, commas are used between groups of three digits, counting from the right. (In scientific writing, commas are often omitted from four-digit numbers.
1,512
32,987
4,000,500
No commas are used in page numbers, addresses, and years (though years of five digits or more do include the comma.)
Punctuation conventions can be found on page 1535 of the tenth edition.
Our business office is at 11030 South Langley Avenue.
Human artifacts dating from between 35,000 BP and 5000 BP have been found there.
9.60 Space between digits
In the International System of Units, half-spaces rather than commas are used to mark off groups of three digits, both to the left and to the right of the decimal point. In numbers of only four digits either to the left or the right of the decimal point, no space is used (except in table columns with numbers having five or more digits). This system is far more common in Europe than in the United States. Chicago’s Astrophysical Journal, for example, uses commas, not spaces (see bibliog. 5). See also 9.22, 9.59.
3 426 869
0.000 007
2501.4865 (four-digit numbers require no space)
See B. N. Taylor, Guide for the Use of the International System of Units (SI) (bibliog. 2.4).
Since the change to allow numbers formatted like 12345.67809 and discourage the format 12345.67809 has not been challenged for nearly a week, let me ask a related question. If one of the numbers in an article uses gaps to group digits, should all the numbers in the article be changed to match.
For example, if an article currently reads there are 43,560 square feet in an acre and an exact SI conversion is added, should it revised to say there are 43,560 43560 square feet (exactly 4046.8564224
m2) in an international acre? --
Jc3s5h (
talk)
17:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Being a Dane living in England, I have lived with two different ways of presenting the same information (Denmark uses a comma as the decimal separator and a point as the digit group delimiter, whereas England uses a point as the decimal separator and a comma as digit group delimiter) and I find the BIPM way the least confusing solution as 1,234.567 is ambiguous: Is it 1234.567, i.e. the English interpretation, or 1,234567, the Danish interpretation? By using spaces only as digit group delimiters, no number will be ambiguous, whether a point or a comma is used as decimal separator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.201.76 ( talk • contribs) 17 June 2009
As regards the delimiting of large numbers and/or high-precision numbers in all our general-interest articles, Wikipedia specifies the U.S. method of delimiting numbers using commas in the significand because that causes the least confusion with its readership. U.S. readers are far and wide entirely unfamiliar with other delimiting conventions whereas their European counterparts are typically comfortable with several different methods and are not in the least confused by the U.S. convention. Scientific articles are a notable exception, since the language of science is scientific papers which follow the SI method so that such papers can be read by a world-wide audience. Even then, delimiting with narrow spaces is allowed in our scientific articles—not required.
Please remember that the overriding principal on Wikipedia is to follow practices that cause the least confusion with its readership. Note also that the rule of SI is to have a space between the number and the percent symbol, such as “50 %” rather than the “50%” we are all accustomed to. So that our articles cause the least confusion and look most natural, we wisely ignore that suggestion (yes, even thought it comes from the BIPM and their SI).
I note that the two of you (The Feds and you, Jc3s5h) have been having a discussion amongst yourselves, above, and have been quietly making changes to MOSNUM without buy-in and consensus of the rest of the Wikipedian community. I know you clearly believe what you are suggesting is a better way to do things. Please bear in mind that MOSNUM guidelines are often the product of tortuous and lengthy (often very lengthy) discussions and are done a certain way for a reason. When a situation arrises where a proposal, as you wrote above, has not been challenged for nearly a week, that does not equate to acquiescence and agreement with a proposal. Please widen the discussion so there is a clear consensus before revising MOSNUM. Greg L ( talk) 02:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
This discussion came about as a result of two different versions of part of the "Large numbers" section. The first example below incorporates some clarifications I made, plus some changes Jc3s5h made. The second example is the prior version of that section. Now that we've been discussing it for a while, I'd like to see whether others feel that the first example is clearer overall, and should therefore be the basis for the eventual revision of the section. I know I'm of that opinion, principally because that version is clearer about what is permissible and in what situations, states individual possibilities in separate bullets, and covers cases that are ambiguous in the other version. Does anyone feel that the second option is clearer?
- In a number with many digits, digit grouping symbols (inserted at intervals from the decimal point) should be used to subdivide the number into easily readable groups. The acceptable digit grouping schemes are:
- Commas every three digits (8,274,527) only to the left of the decimal point, with no grouping to the right of the decimal point. This is traditional usage in many English-language contexts.
- Thin, non-breaking spaces every three digits (8274527 or 0.12345). This format is suggested in BIPM and NIST style guides for scientific works, and is in common use in interlanguage contexts. The {{ gaps}} template uses CSS to produce this output (using the syntax
{{gaps|8|274|527}}
). The 
character may cause rendering problems in some browsers, and should be avoided when practical.- Other traditional digit grouping schemes, when relevant to the subject matter of the article (e.g. 82,74,527 in the Indian numbering system).
- When a number has exactly four digits on any side of the decimal separator, those digits may optionally be expressed as a group of four instead of three (e.g. both 9876 and 0.9876 are acceptable).
- In large numbers (i.e., in numbers greater than or equal to 10,000), commas are generally used to break the sequence every three places left of the decimal point, e.g. 8,274,527. In scientific and mathematical contexts, {{ gaps}} may be used to insert thin spaces, e.g.
{{gaps|8|274|527}}
produces 8274527 (note: the thin space character and its HTML entity, 
, do not render correctly on some browsers). Consistency within an article is desirable as always.
If we generally prefer the first example, we should implement that change to the MOS (it got reverted during the course of our discussion), because it's generally independent of the RfC going on below. (The result of the RfC can easily be added, once it is established—until then, we can stick to the status quo for the U.S. customary style guideline) Any objections or suggestions? TheFeds 07:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Following the 9th CGPM (1948, Resolution 7) and the 22nd CGPM (2003, Resolution 10), for numbers with many digits the digits may be divided into groups of three by a thin space, in order to facilitate reading. Neither dots nor commas are inserted in the spaces between groups of three. However, when there are only four digits before or after the decimal marker, it is customary not to use a space to isolate a single digit.
Cependant, lorsqu’il n’y a que quatre chiffres avant ou après le séparateur décimal, il est d’usage de ne pas isoler un chiffre par un espace.
- In a number with many digits, digit grouping symbols (inserted at intervals from the decimal point) should be used to subdivide the number into easily readable groups. The acceptable digit grouping schemes are:
- Commas every three digits to the left of the decimal point, and no grouping to the right of the decimal point (e.g. 8,274,527 or 0.12345). This is traditional usage in many English-language contexts.
- Thin, non-breaking spaces every three digits (e.g. 8274527 or 0.12345). This format is suggested in BIPM and NIST style guides for scientific and engineering works, and is in common use in interlanguage contexts. The {{ gaps}} template uses CSS to produce this output (using the syntax
{{gaps|8|274|527}}
). Using HTML entities for this purpose (e.g. 
or 
) may cause rendering problems in some browsers, and should be avoided when practical.- Other traditional digit grouping schemes, when relevant to the subject matter of the article (e.g. 82,74,527 in the Indian numbering system).
- When a number has exactly four digits on any side of the decimal separator, those digits may optionally be expressed as a group of four instead of three (e.g. both 9876 and 0.9876 are acceptable).
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Archive 120 | Archive 121 | Archive 122 | Archive 123 | Archive 124 | Archive 125 | → | Archive 130 |
Because of this, I would default to the int'l format (9 September 2009) for dates within the article. (And yes, I started the article with US dates, but I'd argue its fair to go the int'l route) -- MASEM ( t) 12:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe there is, but it's pretty long ... how is it set? Tony (talk) 15:50, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Have a shuftie at these when distances are given they are given as miles from main terminus (generally london), in miles chains and feet. You can't go changing that to metric cos thats how it is written by the track. There is an enormous consistency in these articles and always in imperial with conversions. SimonTrew ( talk) 23:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed WP:VPT#Date issues that pointed out that June 16 2009 is being linked but not formatted. Has something been changed in the date autoformatting function? — Ost ( talk) 18:15, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Please see Template_talk:Death_date#Leading_zeros_in_days. I've reported a minor issue with the {{ death date}} template but had no answer. To fix it just needs a user with an understanding of template logic to copy over the relevant part of {{ birth date}} to not show leading zeros. Thanks Rjwilmsi 16:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia rightly strives for both consistency and diversity in usage. In some cases this means making a choice between competing usages; in other cases, the differing usages are accepted. So, the differences between British and American spelling is accommodated, while, sensibly, the rules state that individual articles should be internally consistent. The same rule applies to weights and measures, only here we generally need to supply both SI and Imperial/US Customary units for the sake of readers who often are not familiar with one or the others.
However, there is a problem with inconsistency between similar articles, which can quite arbitrarily swing between metric and Imperial/US Common measures. This may be seen in the following table:
Metric first | Imperial first |
---|---|
Now a certain amount of inconsistency is inevitable when editors have different preferences for weights and measures, but these variations are more Monty Python than encyclopedic. Now I know full well that we can't impose a rigid rule on people. However, I believe that we could put in place guidelines that would nudge editors towards more consistency. I suggest that the following wording be considered:
Add to the principles:
Revise this point from this:
to this:
What do other editors think?
I agree that we can't impose a rigid rule on people. However, the Style Manual can make recommendations. For instance, the style manual recommends that SI units should generally be preferred. It also recommends that articles should be internally consistent. I believe that the style manual could make it clear that these rules apply to British articles, while not labouring the point. Michael Glass ( talk) 05:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
A solution to the problem outlined above is to state explicitly that SI and SI-related units should be preferred in UK based articles. At the same time I stated that US articles have conversions to SI units. This is also stated in the Conversions section that follows. It is also standard practice in US-based articles and is a description rather than a prescription. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Glass ( talk • contribs)
If people don't like the most recent change, or feel it needs more discussion, so be it. The change wasn't to metricate the UK but to deal with the excessive variation in UK-based articles in Wikipedia. I have restored the wording to what was there when I made my most recent change. Michael Glass ( talk) 09:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
SI-ified Canada where floor-sizes for apartments/houses are given in square feet, where you buy butter in 454-gram blocks, where cans of "pop" come in 355 ml (i.e. 12 US fl oz) sizes but bottles of beer are 341 ml (i.e. 12 imp fl oz), where you write/print/photocopy on 11 by 8½ inch paper, where per kilogram prices at the grocery are fine print conversions of the per pound price ... anyhow ...
It seems to me that the easiest way around this is to use the source units & when these are mixed with no one system predominating go with metric/SI. JIMp talk· cont 10:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
In reply I want to make four points:
1. The phrase "broadly accepted" The discussion above shows clearly why the words "broadly accepted units" are a problem: there is no agreement about what broadly accepted units are. Besides, it's an example of weasel wording to say "broadly accepted units" and then state that SI units are usually broadly accepted. Hans Adler's argument that SI is not broadly accepted is an argument against this contentious wording. In place of the complex and contentious wording of the moment, I recommend the following wording:
Hans has drawn attention to some exceptions to this general rule. The wording above takes account of exceptions such as the difference in the speed limits in Ireland and the territorial limits measured in nautical miles. It even takes account of the US preference to put US customary measures first in US-specific articles. It simply states clearly that metrics should generally be preferred, while making clear provision for exceptions and other units to be included where necessary.
2. Monty Python variations Let's leave aside variations in usage in articles. Most people agree with general policy which says that articles should be internally consistent. However, the present policy on UK-based articles is to leave it to individual editors to determine which measures to use. The result is a number of grotesque inconsistencies, where Jersey goes metric and Guernsey sticks to Imperial measures. Ditto Cornwall and Devon, Cambridgeshire and Oxfordshire and so on. My solution to this is the following wording:
If distances in the UK must be in miles, it takes no account of other measures such as the height of hills or mountains and the area of counties. Now if we had distances in miles and other measures in metres or square kilometres, we would have the very mixture of units in Wikipedia articles that present policy rejects. Better to recommend putting the metric values first in Wikipedia articles. Over time, this might help to reduce the Monty Python variations in the articles. Remember, this is about articles in Wikipedia, not road signs in the UK.
3. US Articles At the moment, US articles are pretty good at including metric measures along with the US customary measures. The wording I propose would support this practice. The present wording says:
This wording hints that SI units would be provided, but it doesn't state it outright. Now policy is not the place for weasel wording. If it is policy and practice to have US customary measures followed by SI measures, then better to state this outright. That is why I prefer
Yes it's longer, but it's more in line with current practice.
Use source material units Sounds simple and easy. However, sources will vary, and if you put them together in an article, you are likely to get inconsistencies both between articles and within articles. So there are problems with this argument.
I hope that this has clarified what wording I want and why I recommend it to MOSNUM. My argument is about wording, not about metrication in the UK, Ireland and Canada. Michael Glass ( talk) 21:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- All other things being equal, it is preferable to use units consistently in an article, for example: A 10 kg (22 lb) bag of potatoes and a 5 kg (11 lb) bag of carrots, or A 22 lb (10 kg) bag of potatoes and a 11 lb (5 kg) bag of carrots, rather than A 22 lb (10 kg) bag of potatoes and a 5 kg (11 lb) bag of carrots or A 10 kg (22 lb) bag of potatoes and a 11 lb (5 kg) bag of carrots.
- Defined values (as opposed to measurements), and high-precision measurements, should be given first in the original units with conversions following in parentheses, for example: When the metric system was adopted in Ireland, speed limits in built up areas were changed from 30 mph (48 km/h) to 50 km/h (31 mph), or The 10-mile (16 km) optical fiber cable between Pasadena and Los Angeles has a core diameter of 8 micrometers (0.00031 in) and a cladding diameter of 125 micrometers (0.0049 in).
-- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 00:54, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I have no problem with your arguments, A. di M, and the examples that you give. As you can see from the wording that I have proposed, there is room enough for such genuine exceptions. That is why I have used the word generally, to make room for these very exceptions. In fact, I explicitly mentioned the change in the Irish speed limits as one obvious exception. If these genuine examples need more detailed treatment in the Manual of Style, let's see what needs to be done. However, this is not the problem with so many UK-based articles. The issue is one of unnecessary variation. Take South Ulst: metrics first; go to North Ulst and it's Imperial first in the text and SI first in the text box. Why should two Outer Hebrides islands have such varying usages? Why should Oxfordshire differ from Cambridgeshire? Why should Devon differ from Cornwall? It makes no sense, and it is the inevitable outcome from a policy which said, "Choose your own weights and measures!"
Now what I propose is a simple change that will, in time, help to lessen this policy-driven confusion in Wikipedia: a simple statement that says, "UK-related topics may have either SI (generally preferred) or imperial units as the primary units." It's a recommendation, not an order, and it applies to Wiki articles on the UK, not the UK itself. Hopefully, over time, it will help to overcome this unnecessary inconsistency in these Wikipedia articles. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Let's deal with the issues one by one.
1. Clear and straightforward English
a. In general, prefer units approved by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM).
b. In general, prefer broadly accepted units. Usually this means units approved by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM).
Version A gives the same message in one sentence instead of two.
Version A is clear, straightforward and direct; version B is woolly and verbose.
Version B invites people to debate on what is or what is not "broadly acceptable" where it is broadly acceptable and where it is not, whether SI is broadly acceptable or whether US customary Units and Imperial units are or are not broadly acceptable and when and where and so on ad infinitum. Version A, which is clearly more direct and straightforward, doesn't go into this conundrum. So this is a change to sidestep a problem in the wording.
2. This particular phrasing
Unclear reference. Which particular phrasing were you referring to? How and why was it weaker?
3. Monty Python variation
Claimed to be a non-issue. Others claim it is a minuscule problem. I beg to differ. I think it makes Wikipedia look less than professional to have apparently random variation in similar articles. If it was just a few articles, it perhaps would not matter, but this Monty Python variation applies to so many articles.
a. UK-related topics may have either SI (generally preferred) or imperial units as the primary units.
b. UK-related topics may have either SI or imperial units as the primary units.
Both allow SI or Imperial units to come first, but the first one gives a clear preference for the SI version. In time this will help to rid the encyclopedia from unnecessary variation in UK-based articles. What's the problem with that? If unnecessary variation is such a non-issue, why do you have such an issue with it? Michael Glass ( talk) 08:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Obviously there is no point in pursuing consensus when no consensus exists, or in recommending consistency when others are satisfied with the opposite. Nevertheless, I think I should point out a few things:
Michael Glass ( talk) 01:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
We have to deal with the fact, that units of measurement are always going to be a bit messy. For example, I'm Australian, which is more metricated than the US or Canada or UK or Ireland, though probably not quite as much as continental Europe is. My weight is in kilograms (I'm too embarrassed to say how many) -- a pound is about 450g, but a stone I have no clue -- but my height is in feet and inches, even though I know it in centimetres too. And, living in Victoria, I drink beer in pints and pots, except in Irish pubs, when its pints and half-pints. When I lived in NSW, it was schooners and midis instead, again except for the Irish pubs, which are pints and half-pints there as well. I'm not that into cars, but my good mate who is, he does 0 to 100 km/h in so many seconds, but his tire pressure is in psi rather than kPa. I've never been to the UK (despite the fact I have a British passport), so I can't say too much about what everyday usage is there. But, let's not think that the UK articles as a whole have to choose Imperial vs. SI. I think, the answer needs to depend on the purpose. My initial suggestion: prefer SI and give Imperial equivalents, except for distances; there prefer Imperial and give SI equivalent. I'd guess, from what I know (which is reading rather than first hand) that reasonably represents the situation on the ground in the UK. Remember, its mostly geographical measurements that count here, since articles that use fluid or weight measurements are less likely to be country-specific. -- SJK ( talk) 06:06, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Michael Glass ( talk) 12:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe that it is against Wikipedia policy to mix measures in one article (sure, this page mentions consistency but as one bullet amongst many (possibly conflicting) and this page is a guideline). In fact, there sometimes are good reasons to do so (the Irish speed limits, for example). JIMp talk· cont 11:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I think I understand the issue that Michael Glass is raising. The guidance provides for within-article consistency. In the case of the US, it provides for between-article consistency. In the case of the UK, the guidance actually prevents between-article consistency. Lightmouse ( talk) 19:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
At the moment, the MOSNUM policy on US measures reads as follows:
This is modified by the policy on conversions:
In a quick reading of the policy, a reader might miss the recommendation to provide conversions, as it occurs in a slightly different part of the policy. I would therefore suggest a clarification in the wording that would make such a reading much less likely. I suggest this wording:
This version, which makes explicit what is implicit in the first version, has the following features.
This last feature is of growing importance. As time goes on, knowledge of customary measures in most English-speaking countries is diminishing, as the older generations die off and are replaced by people who grew up after the metric conversion had taken place. India changed to the metric system in the early 1960s, Australia and New Zealand changed in the 1970s and that means that Australians under the age of 40 are unlikely to be very familiar with the older units. Also, unlike the United States and the UK, where students are educated in both sets of weights and measures, the children only learn metric measures. So the conversion factors from customary measures to metrics are of much greater importance.
I would be interested in people's feedback on this proposal. Michael Glass ( talk) 09:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for raising those points. The policy on conversions is covered in the section on unit conversions:
As you can see, this provision covers conversions both to and from metric and US customary/Imperial units.
A second point is about the text of the proposed change. In this case, the only proposed change in the text was to one sentence, where the rest of the policy was not changed. That is why I gave only the proposed change and not the whole text, which, of course, is just one click away. I am sorry you gained the impression it was to eliminate the requirement for conversions from SI into US customary units. This is certainly not the case. The revision that I have proposed here does not touch this provision, which would be unchanged by my proposal.
I hope this answers all your concerns. If not, please write again. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I think that your wording reads better. Thanks. Michael Glass ( talk)
Wording changed as per the discussion above. "However:" re-inserted to complete the sentence. Michael Glass ( talk) 22:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
At the moment the policy instructs us in one place to "prefer broadly accepted units". However, the policy does not define what broadly accepted units are, except to state that it usually means SI and related units. The wording is problematic for the following reasons.
Therefore it could be argued that the phrase "broadly acceptable" is at best problematic or even that it is a nonsense, as no units are broadly acceptable in any meaningful way. The phrasing is also obscure (we don't know or have different ideas about what is "generally acceptable". It is also verbose. If it says something meaningful, it takes too many words to say it.
I suggest this wording:
It is shorter, it is clear and it is to the point. It states present policy, clearly pointing out the exceptions to the general rule. I can't see any problem with it. However, others might be able to suggest some improvements. What do others think? Michael Glass ( talk) 22:59, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
It is necessary to read the policy on units of measurement as a whole. The third principle of using units of measurement reads as follows:
This states a general preference for metric units with two exceptions. So existing policy is not a free-for-all, where usage may be decided on a per article or per topic basis. According to the existing guidelines, it is to be metric except for US articles and some UK articles. The phrase "broadly acceptable" is problematic not only because it is vague and open to interpretation, it is also at odds with existing policy, which makes clear recommendations about which system of weights and measures to put first.
We have units determined on a per-article basis in Wikipedia's UK articles. Here, as I have demonstrated, the choice of measures is all over the shop. I think we should be working to reduce, not increase, this kind of unnecessary variation. The policy states a general preference for SI and related units, but make it clear what the exceptions are. This clear recommendation should not be muddled by an ambiguous phrase.
My suggestion, rather than changing current policy, clarifies it. It removes a phrase that is not only vague but is misleading, because it can be read in a way that is at odds with current policy. However, I agree with Headbomb that policy is a recommendation rather than a prescription. Michael Glass ( talk) 22:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I have now revised the wording in accordance with the proposal above. However, I have also dropped two unnecessary words from the second sentence to make the passage flow better. Michael Glass ( talk) 05:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I note this reversion and the reasons given to justify it.
In short, the reasons given for the reversion simply don't stand up to scrutiny. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Concerning the first bullet, the Greenbox's discussion was chaotic and mixed with the red box's and the purplebox's. If you feel like reading everything, you'll see that the opposition was centered on whether it allowed IEC prefixes or not. See also the redbox with is provision of familiarity. Opposition to that was be on people thinking it mean that it did not allow for following current litterature (aka if snail racing uses furlongs per forthnight as their unit of speed, use furlong per forthnight). Concerning the second bullet, there isn't a single thread about that specifically, but there are many in which the provision has been interpreted by many (all) people to mean what I'm to mean use the generally accepted units, whatever those are. And what "whatever those are" are is to be decided on a per article basis (or per-topic basis). You don't have consensus to change this phrasing, so don't change it. This version stood unphased for over nine months, which must be a record of some sort. It's up to you to demonstrate their is consensus to change the phrasing, which you didn't do.
Headbomb {
ταλκ
κοντριβς –
WP Physics}
11:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, Headbomb and A. di M. I read your comments with interest. I am afraid we are speaking at cross-purposes. Let me explain.
For Dorothy in Kansas, generally accepted units applies to the customary units that she has grown up with. Ditto for Sally in Saskatchewan and Christina in Chihuahua, except that the units they regard as generally accepted are different from Dorothy's. And as for Lucy in London, no units are generally accepted. She uses different units for different purposes, and she knows not to mention the metre to Colonel Blimp, her uncle, or the mile to cousin Milton, who's a metric fanatic. So Dorothy's certainty and clarity dissolves into a fog of uncertainty once you use that phrase in a global context.
When you think about the word general it is clear to you what you mean. However, from an international perspective your general actually means particular. So for me, your meaning turns general into particular and local and the phrase dissolves into confusion.
It's the same problem that you face if you use the seasons to refer to times of the year. For you, Christmas is in winter and Easter is in spring but that's not the case for me, where Christmas is in summer and Easter is in autumn. Why? I live in the Southern Hemisphere, where your natural order of seasons is turned on its head. in Singapore or Jamaica there are no seasons at all and in Darwin, Australia, there are just two seasons: the Wet and the Dry. So while seasons are real, they are not the same everywhere, and they are not universal, and in Wikipedia articles you can't use them to refer to periods of time..
So that's why the phrase, generally accepted units is problematic: it means different and conflicting things to different people, and for people like Lucy in London, it's a nonsense. And that is also why you find it so hard to give a credible example of a generally accepted unit. When pressed, the concept generally accepted unit dissolves into confusion, because in the global context there is no such thing. If there really were generally accepted units, we wouldn't need a policy about which units to use.
I can understand that the phrase generally accepted units has meaning for you. However, on a global scale - and Wikipedia is global - the phrase becomes contradictory and nonsensical for other readers. And that's what makes it problematic for Wikipedia. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:12, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
All these are covered by the qualifier, In general.... However, if you feel that this is not sufficient, then I have no objection to your phrase, Units generally accepted for the topic to be added. Michael Glass ( talk) 06:29, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Having thought about Headbomb's comments above for several days, it appears to me that we may be arguing at cross purposes. What I take generally acceptable units to mean is units that are used in a wide variety of ways, such as the common SI and related units and US customary and Imperial units that are widely used in Great Britain and the United States. What Headbomb referred to was mostly scientific terms that are generally used in some particular contexts. So though we were using the same term (generally accepted units) we were thinking of quite different things. In other words, we were arguing at cross purposes. This could explain why we kept on talking past each other.
What I said all along was that the term generally accepted units was problematic, because it meant different things to different people. It appears to me that this applies to Headbomb and me, because we had different things in mind when we used this term. If so, it goes to show that the term is even more problematic than I gave it credit for being, and that is another good reason for getting rid of it.
In my previous comment, I stated my belief that the qualifier In general... covers the kind of units that Headbomb raised. I note that Headbomb has not rushed to say that this is not the case. However, this qualifying phrase may not be strong enough for him and others. Here, therefore is another proposal:
As you can see, this proposal deletes the problematical phrase, generally accepted units. However, it takes full account of the objection that Headbomb raised by referring to the scientific and sporting measurements that he drew attention to. The sentence that I have bolded should adequately cover the concerns that Headbomb raised in his comments and we and perhaps others could agree on this change of wording. Michael Glass ( talk) 10:40, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
The first comment is about BIPM pushing. It makes being in favour of the metric system sound like drug pushing! Not exactly the language that one would expect from a dispassionate observer. Not exactly expressed in a friendly way, either. However, there's no question that the wording does - Shock! Horror! - favour the Metric System. In fact, it favours SI as much as the following statements:
And where do these BIPM pushing statements come from? Why, our very own Manual of Style (dates and numbers)! I believe that my suggested wording, "In general, prefer units approved by the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures (BIPM)," is much the same.
However, you do make some valuable criticisms about the wording that I proposed. My solution to the problem you raise is to change the sentence to include other measurements. If you want to include nautical miles and gem cutting and other measures, then instead of taking a combative stance, let us work together to find a way to express it in a way that is not so problematical. One way of putting it may be to say,
Some specialized measures are expressed in units other than SI and related units.
That, I reckon, should cover any measures that may be raised. My problem with the phrase "generally accepted units" remains. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Not exactly a polite response, is it? As I explained repeatedly, there are problems with the wording "generally accepted units". You state you have a workable solution for the problem I have raised with the wording. Then please write it out in full so that I can consider it in context. Michael Glass ( talk) 06:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Once again, another rude response from someone cringing behind an assumed name, who, when confronted with his bad manners has made it clear that he doesn't care. "In the field" means nothing. "Generally accepted units in the field" is gobbledegook. For the second time I request that Headbomb quotes his proposed wording in context. Then we might be able to make some sense of it. Michael Glass ( talk) 10:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
There is a firm recommendations that articles on Wikipedia should generally have SI and related units first. However, for US - based articles, US customary units are to come first and for UK - based articles, the primary units can be either SI or Imperial units. As a result, there are firm guidelines for editors except for UK-based articles, where there is a free-for-all, with the inconsistencies that I have documented.
At present, MOSUM's wording is:
This, I believe, has resulted in allowing inconsistencies between similar UK articles to an extent that is not seen elsewhere in Wikipedia.
So what can be done?
We obviously can't tell British editors that they must use metric measures or that they must go back to using Imperial measures. That is simply not on. However, we can advise or recommend or suggest that more consistency would be preferable. Something like this may help:
This wording explains the rationale for the policy. It explains that it is about Wikipedia articles. It is framed as a recommendation and not a rule, and it specifically retains the provision that UK articles may still be Imperial first - even though the use of SI is recommended.
How do other editors feel about this proposed change in wording and policy. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Have a look at the top of this current section. What would you do to remedy the variation in usage that I have documented? How could you force Imperial only (or SI only) on editors? Should Wikipedia be bound by the road signs in England? Michael Glass ( talk) 13:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
The question is not about whether the UK should convert to the metric system but whether we should encourage UK articles on Wikipedia to be more consistent in their display of units. It is not good practice to have measures all over the place, where Devon and Cornwall, Oxfordshire and Cambridgeshire, the Shetlands and the Orkneys differ on whether they put metric or Imperial measures first. It is not rational to have metric first in the articles on East and West Falklands, but Imperial first in the article on the Falkland Islands. That is a Monty Python parody, not good practice for an encyclopedia. Michael Glass ( talk) 22:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Have you asked the opinions of people at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United Kingdom and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Measurement? -- 80.104.235.96 ( talk) 23:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
First I would like to thank Wjemather, Hans Adler and 80.104.235.96 for their comments.
I believe that something can and should be done to help overcome this excessive variation, and that is a simple statement that SI and related units are recommended or at least suggested for consistency's sake. However, we must also make it clear that both SI and Imperial units should be supplied. And this, at least, should be much easier to reach consensus on. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
A. di M., articles on the UK are of general interest. It is an advantage that they be widely understood. The use of both Imperial and metric units will assist. It would also help if there was more consistency in their presentation. A suggestion in the Manual of Style could help this process. Also, please note that my proposal would be a general guide, not a straitjacket. It's trivialising the question to talk about measuring distances between London and Oxford in sheets of A4 paper. The real world uses SI and Imperial/US customary measures. It is not asking too much that there is some more consistency in their presentation in UK -based Wikipedia, just as there is elsewhere.
Wjemather, my proposals do not make the sweeping statement that SI units are preferred. The statements I have proposed are qualified to make room for exceptions, the biggest exception being the United States. I agree that the MOS has not been applied consistently. Most people who edit on Wikipedia wouldn't even look at it. Nevertheless, a recommendation for consistency will have some effect over time, and that is what makes it worthwhile to consider. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
It's good that we agree that conversions should be provided. I think that should be stated clearly for UK articles, just as it is for US articles. It seems we differ on whether UK articles should be encouraged to be more consistent. I can see no harm in that, but you are concerned that distances in UK articles should give miles first, because that is the way that British roads are signed. I actually have some sympathy with that view, provided there was consistency with the other measures. However, that is not the state of UK articles, where some are metric first, some are not and some are mixed. The present policy simply leaves it to individual editors to decide which units to put first. All I propose is a suggestion that SI be put first for the sake of consistency, and if greater consistency could be achieved by making an exception for road distances, then that would be an improvement on the present state. However, we should remember that policy insists on consistent use of measures within articles, so this could be a sticking point. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I think we should get back to the question at issue: a suggested change in policy to encourage more consistency. It's not about the British Empire, or the European Community or even the Metric System. It's about a suggested change in policy to encourage more consistency. I think more consistency should be encouraged but different wording might prove more acceptable. On the other hand, some editors might be quite happy with the status quo. What do people want, a Monty Python free-for-all, or a policy that encourages more consistency?. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Wjemather fears that the situation of weights and measures in the UK is so complex that Wikipedia should go along with common local usage. This presumes that because the article on Jersey gives precedence to metric measures and Guernsey is Imperial, that this reflects the feelings of the people who live in these islands. I doubt it. It's probably more to do with the individual preferences of the authors of the articles than any local preference. It also presumes that these articles are only read by the locals, so that the needs of young Australians (who would want metric measures) and Americans (who would want the customary measures) count for nothing. Here is a proposal that has a chance to satisfy the broadest possible audience:
This proposal gives something for almost everyone. There are imperial units for those who want them, SI units for the rest and internal consistency for the fastidious. However, it does nothing to sort out the Monry Python mess that I have drawn attention to. To deal with that I would suggest the following:
What do people think about these suggested wordings? Also - and I stress - the recommendation for SI and related units is a suggestion and not an order. Michael Glass ( talk)
- UK-related topics should generally display SI units first, with imperial conversions provided in brackets, but with the following exceptions: distances, speed, aircraft altitude, personal measurements (height and weight), all of which should be be displayed using imperial first with metric conversions given.
First of all, I did not quote wjemather. The complexity of British usage of weights and measures does not fully explain why there are such inconsistencies between individual articles. As I said, this probably has more to do with the preferences of individual editors of the articles. If, however, I inadvertently misrepresented his views, then I am sorry.
Secondly, I do not agree that Wikipedia is necessarily bound to go along with common local usage no matter how complex it is. Wikipedia is international, and therefore some adjustment has to be made to take account of this fact
Thirdly, I agree that UK-related topics should generally display SI units first, with imperial conversions provided in brackets. However, a great list of exceptions would largely negate the policy. Worse, it would result in even more inconsistency, only this time there would be inconsistency within articles, something that is against Wikipedia policy.
Fourthly, the advice to use "square miles over square kilometres (but use hectares and square metres over acres and square feet)" is a recipe for confusion.
Fifthly, it would make more sense to give both litres per 100km as well as miles per Imperial gallon. It should be noted that the Imperial gallon is obsolete in almost every place where it was once used, that it was never used in the United States and that it is largely obsolete even in Great Britain. MPG is now an orphan measure now that fuel in the UK is sold by the litre.
So though I welcome Pfainuk's support of the Metric System, I fear that his exceptions would prove unworkable. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, thank you for your thoughtful, detailed and measured response. I feel I should make the following points:
To respond to Hans Adler, I believe it is essential that distances be expressed in both units and would prefer that SI came first. To respond to wjemather, I understand that using units consistently means that all measures in an article be expressed with either metric measures coming first or with Imperial measures coming first. If buildings are measured in metres but people are measured in feet and inches, this, in my opinion, is inconsistent. Having stated my interpretation of the policy - which is to take the words to mean what the words say - I can see that this might prove impossible with UK articles, because people in the UK use SI for some things and Imperial measures for others. For example, in the article on the Falkland Islands, distances are given in miles first but temperatures are given in degrees Celsius without conversion into Fahrenheit. However, as Hans Adler believes that there is consensus for conversions to be supplied in UK articles, I have changed MOSNUM accordingly. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
That revision lasted about 5 minutes before it was reverted to what was before. So much for assuming consensus. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Now I understand why Monty Python comes from England. Consistency taken to mean inconsistency. Now I reckon I've heard it all. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
This is really getting disruptive now. [5] This edit by Michael Glass combined two things:
Michael Glass, whether you like it or not, the system of units currently used in the UK is a hybrid of the metric and Imperial systems. Since the Imperial system is clearly not an option for UK articles except some historical ones, your change would basically legislate complete metrication of the majority of UK-related articles. You are not going to succeed with this, and I suggest you stop before we start discussing whether you need to be banned for trolling.
As to the meaning of "consistency" here: UK articles should (with some exceptions such as history articles) consistently use the hybrid system that is used in the UK. And where that system offers a choice between Imperial and metric units, and article should make this choice consistently, but possibly for each unit separably. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Monty Python. -- Hans Adler ( talk) 12:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Even better, let's just define inconsistent as meaning the same as consistent. Michael Glass ( talk) 21:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
It is obvious that this particular discussion has got nowhere. However, I want to comment on this statement:
Accepted, though this doesn't have to mean that Wikipedia has to do the same.
Rejected. The change suggested explicitly said that either SI or imperial units could come first. It also said that the articles should be internally consistent. The belief that this would basically legislate complete metrication of the majority of UK-related articles is groundless. How Hans Adler could get his interpretation from my wording is a puzzle to me, unless it could be attributed to the recent full moon.
Having worked himself into a lather over an imaginary danger he lashes out with a crazy threat. However, I put Hans Adler on notice that I do not take kindly to those who try to bully me. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
I believe that the following wording is unnecessarily vague:
Region-specific: meaningless, as the region is not supplied.
The wording is better expressed:
at least with this wording you know where the non-international units are to be used.
Of course it would be better to specify SI and related units. Michael Glass ( talk) 21:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
The argument about historical articles and Ancient Egypt only applies if the wording said, "use SI units exclusively." All I have proposed is to use SI units so I can't see the problem. In the case of crude oil, there appears to be two measures. One is the barrel (42 US gallons) and the other is the metric measure. I really don't think the sky would fall if the metric measure was put first. However - and correct me if I am wrong - we might both agree it would be an improvement if the article was consistent in its use of barrels and the metric measures.
Anyway, all of this is irrelevant in deciding whether the policy should say "region specific" (and then neither mention or define this specific region) or specify that this applies to US and some UK specific topics. I can't understand why people would want to obfuscate the wording for no apparent logical reason. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
When quoting texts you quote them verbatim. So if you were quoting an ancient text referred to an ancient measure you would quote it and then translate the measurement into modern terms, putting that measurement in square brackets. Anyway, the controversial text has been removed from the policy altogether so there is no point in discussing it further. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
This whole section began as a discussion about whether MOSUM should read:
Then someone removed the entire sentence from the article. Now we have no guidance in MOSNUM as to what units should apply world-wide. Not a smart move. I believe that either sentence would be better than nothing, even though I think the second one is too vague.
In deciding this question we would not be considering whether or not the UK should or would or could complete its metric changeover; we would be considering the wording that would set Wiki policy for the use of weights and measures in most of the rest of the world. Michael Glass ( talk) 06:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Instead of discussing the wording, the discussion has veered onto my agenda. As Tony said, my agenda is to improve Wikipedia. Yes, I think it would be better to have more consistency in the use of weights and measures. However, that does not mean that I want to ride roughshod over other people's opinions and rights. Why am I being demonised? Because people with another agenda are fighting tooth and nail against anything they see as a threat to their point of view. Pfainuk (above) makes it clear that UK people feel comfortable with using metric measures for some things and Imperial measures for other things. However, that was not at issue. What was at issue was the policy that should apply to Wiki articles about the rest of the world. Let's go back to the wording:
As I stated, I prefer the first over the second, because region-specific is too vague. So let's discuss the wording rather than people's agendas. Michael Glass ( talk) 08:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand how you could want a policy could be purposefully vague. Flexible, yes, but not vague! If the policy read "Use international units with regional considerations as appropriate," it would be something as vague as the Oracle of Delphi, and capable of as many interpretations.
But let's do it a different way. Let's try being as specific as possible, while leaving as much wiggle room as necessary. What if the policy read:
This wording would cover other international units, such as measuring horses by hands or oil by barrels or earthquakes by the Richter Scale or whatever other things are necessary. It would also cover national units, such as the US customary units and the Imperial units that are in use in the UK and its dependancies. Would that satisfy your requirements? If it does not, please explain why not. And when I ask for an explanation, I don't mean sloganeering. I want specific examples of where the wording is problematical Michael Glass ( talk) 11:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
What a breath of fresh air! Someone other than the usual three debaters expressing an opinion! In the case of language, the advice of the Manual of Style is quite appropriate. However, when it comes to weights and measures, SI and related measures are not only the accepted standard over most of the world but SI is the standard for science and increasingly the standard for industry. This does not mean that SI should be used to the exclusion of other measures but it does mean that SI's place should be recognised.
In reply to WJmather, I agree that I should have used the word "guidance" rather than "policy". However, I believe that the guidelines need to be clear rather than vague. About the claim of SI pushing, I think that this is a mixture of both wisdom and silliness. It is wise in alerting me to the fact that the wording needs to be improved, but silly in treating SI like some kind of virus that must be resisted. I am also interested in your use of "we". Yes, I know that there are three people who have opposed me here. However, that doesn't mean three people speak for the whole of Wikipedia, even if those three think they do.
But let's get back to the wording.
Now I think that should cover just about any situation where units other than SI units may be used:
It anything is overlooked, please let me know. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
First, I would like to thank all those who commented on my draft wording. It's great to be working on the wording in a co-operative manner. As there is concern about the guideline and what it says, here is a link to the section [7] and here is an extract of what I believe is the crucial part of the guideline for understanding the proposed wording with one clause in italics: _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
== Units of measurement ==
The use of units of measurement is based on the following principles:
* International scope: Wikipedia is not country-specific; apart from region-specific topics, use international units.
If there is trouble balancing these bullets, consult other editors through the talk page and try to reach consensus.
===Which units to use===
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ My proposed wording was to replace the third bullet point - the one I have placed in italics with these words (also italicised).
* Wikipedia is International; in general, apart from US and certain UK related topics, use SI and related units, supplemented, where appropriate, with other national or internationally used units.
I hope that this puts it into context for everyone, though I do urge people to look at the policy as a whole. Now for the questions that have been raised:
Here is my proposal, revised in the light of the comments above:
* Wikipedia is International; in general, apart from US and certain UK related topics, put SI and SI related units first, supplemented, where appropriate, with other national or internationally used units.
The changes are bolded.
What do others think? Michael Glass ( talk) 10:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Saying that you couldn't use minutes, hours, days and years under SI is a load of bovine manure. [8]. To argue this way is nonsensical. However, if people on MOSNUM are determined to stand against the world-wide system, they are welcome to it. I have tried my best to work out a wording that would deal with any rational objection to my words. This is my last attempt.
The words that are bolded are based on the official policy. Michael Glass ( talk) 09:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
All the exceptions you refer to are covered by the words "in general". I proposed changing the words because they are too vague. "International units" to me suggests SI units in a way that does not come out and say so directly. In any country that uses metric measures, international units would mean SI. That is the problem with the expression '"international units". It means different things to different people.
Where units other than SI are used to measure things such as guitar strings, or hands are used to measure the height of horses, it strikes me as anomalous, like using Roman numerals. These exceptions are covered by the words "in general".
The expression "region specific topics" is so vague and woolly that it doesn't make any sense to me at all. That is why I wanted to sweep away this gobbledegook and replace it with something that makes sense in plain English. But, and this has been made abundantly clear, some editors want the policy to be vague, so there's no point in pursuing it further. Michael Glass ( talk) 13:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
If the wording of the guideline contained the phrase "Internationally accepted units for the topic at hand" it would be much clearer. However, it just reads "international units". Why not put that forward as a suggestion? Michael Glass ( talk) 16:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it's just been added, though I think the passage needs editing. Please see below: Michael Glass ( talk) 04:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
The recently added wording reads as follows:
I would edit this as follows:
My reasons:
In addition:
Michael Glass ( talk) 04:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I note that Headbomb has restored the earlier wording of the introduction. As the words replaced had some merit, I have tried to bring the two versions together to combine the best of both wordings. Michael Glass ( talk) 12:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Let us look, clause by clause, at the wording that Wjmather rejected:
A is simple, straightforward and short. Why reject this simple wording in preference for a more complicated sentence? Is anything of importance omitted by using B instead of A? I don't think so. All that is lost is ponderous language.
Yes, A is longer but B tells us to aim for the unattainable. No-one can write so they cannot be misunderstood. Why not substitute the more modest aim, to write clearly? But let us say that you were not happy with A or B. Then why not try to recast the sentence? That would require work, of course, and I challenge Wjmather and others to work with me on this wording.
Yes, A is longer, but it points out that different people are familiar with different measurements and that is why both metric and US/Imperial measures should be supplied. B is shorter but I doubt that it is better, because it offers no solution to the problem noted.
Once again A is simpler, more straightforward and shorter. Why reject it in favour of the longer and more ponderous B?
Reverts are easy and quick, of course. However, perhaps if Wjmather and others could work with me we could come up with something that is better than either A or B. What about it? Michael Glass ( talk) 10:44, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Hans, it seems you have a ready argument for rejecting anything I suggest. If my edit changes the meaning, you reject it; if it doesn't, you dismiss it as a 'minor stylistic tweak' and then reject it anyway, because it changes the meaning. Let us leave aside the changes that you have argued against. I assert that what you call minor stylistic tweaks are an improvement, because they make the language is simpler, clearer and shorter.
Wjemather, it seems you admit to reverting at least one of my changed wordings, not because you disagreed with it, but because it was easier. Thanks a lot.
I will comment on the argument about ancient measures and looking up meanings later. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Hans's criticisms Only one criticism made sense to me.It could be read as saying that all three measurements should be applied. As this is a possiblity I'll withdraw that proposal. However, the points he makes are a very good argument for using SI and related measures, at least as supplementary units, everywhere.
I cannot see how the proposed wording would affect the use of other measures, whether ancient or modern, whether they are troy pounds or barrels of oil or whatever. However, I reject the excuses that personal animosity is a good reason to refuse to cooperate or that Hans finds it wearisome to argue his point of view. Personal animosity is not a logical reason for rejecting proposed wordings.
Wjmather's points Wjmather has admitted that he took the easy way out in reverting my edit in full. Therefore when he writes 'Your changes made no improvement to the current wording,' the statement is self-serving. In at least one case the charge of 'no improvement' is demonstrably false.
I believe that this proposed revision is
Why should we reject it simply because Wjmather took the easy way out? Michael Glass ( talk) 01:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
No more trivial and pointless than your last edit [9]. You are prepared to make what you call minor tweaks to the wording to improve the style; so am I. If you are concerned about breaking style, consider how you could improve bullet 2, which also breaks the style of the other two. Michael Glass ( talk) 02:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
In fact, I tend to agree with that edit though I feel that "'plus one' and 'minus one'" could be considered. As for quoting the policy on not making personal attacks, I suggest you look at your own behaviour first. For one who is rude and doesn't even care, this wins the prize for gall. Now, about your latest edit. I reverted it because it implies that problems over wording are one-sided. Problems with wording are more often disputes between editors. The policy shouldn't imply that these are one-sided problems. Michael Glass ( talk) 08:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
That's not the way it came across to me, but thanks for your explanation. Michael Glass ( talk) 23:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but there are currently two sections of the manual page entitled "Unnecessary vagueness", one slightly more complexly formatted than the other. There are all kinds of good reasons to avoid identical names in the same article (which is why I hate multiple polls with just "Support", "Oppose" and "Neutral": when I see the edit summary I ask Support what?) Can we at least have consensus about which to delete? —— Shakescene ( talk) 20:53, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone,
I've been following this discussion for some time but not put anything into it. I don't want here to do anything but set down some deliberately vague thoughts that I have taken from this discussion.
As a UK editor and based in the UK but having lived elsewhere I thought I would just add a general rambling discussion, partly as a little comic relief but also maybe to steer us back to the point, which is that we invent units of measure to suit the things we are measuring.
I've been designing units of measure subsystems in computer systems for many years and have heard many of these arguments before, and shan't repeat them. It seems to me Michael Glass has a reasonable argument with the inconsistency between different articles of similar standing (e.g. counties or islands) in the UK. However, that is a general problem in WP: MOS only really says articles should be consistent, not that topics etc should. That is undesirable, but is not specific to numbers: spelling suffers the same problem, and for the same reasons (different authors, subsequent editors, sources, and so forth). Personally I think there should be a broader recommendation that groups of related articles (topics or projects) should have consistency but then that totally hoists the need to discuss it out of MOSNUM (which would be a good thing).
It is incontrovertibly the case that in the UK road distances must be given in miles-- not just on signs but also in written law etc. The same also applies to clearance heights. A swedish lorry driver was cleared of careless driving a couple of years ago because the bridge he hit was not signed in Imperial measure. The fact his cab would have had its height in metres etc was irrelevant. (CN I know.)
Ordnance Survey maps are metric, by the way.
I am thirty-seven. I have no idea how tall I am except in feet and inches. I use SI every day of my working life, and Imperial in my life outside work. I like the dual system, it conveys appropriate imprecision. To say something is 200 yards away gives a rough idea, to say it is 200 metres away sounds very exact.
As always, it seems to me to think of the intended audience (who is likely to be reading this article?) and go from there. SI, even with appropriate rounding, can imply a level of precision that is unwarranted. That is why in all cultures at all times people invent units of measure suitable for the task, be it hands, carats, parsecs, calories (kilocalories), or whatever. The french livre and the spanish libre are different (400g and 500g if I remember it the right way round) but both just mean "a pound" because that's a handy size for measuring butter and fats, some other foodstuffs, stuff like that.
The paper sizes thing is interesting actually, since few who don't really draw would know the measurements, let alone say that an A0 sheeet of paper has an area of a square metre, and that the other sizes are half of that, and the aspect ratio is the square root of 2.
I'm a little surprised at Hans because he seemed to have the most sensible grasp of the UK system of most of the regular contributors to this argument then he says he finds himself converting it (not quoting you verbatim Hans)! That's kinda the point, really. If you give a British person a distance in kilometres mentally they will convert it into miles. I think, at least for people say 30 or under, they are less likely to do that for smaller measures (a metre or below), but still a lot of work is done in inches and feet etc. This is not purely out of spite. If you have a room built to imperial measure, a metric width wallpaper WILL NOT FIT the same as an imperial width wallpaper. I just viewed a house today and the old tiles are imperial and the new ones metric. THEY DO NOT LINE UP. 25mm IS NOT AN INCH. So, some things are kept in Imperial simply because they have to be. Screw threads are another example, as is plumbling: if you have Imperial plumbing and try to fit metric plumbing to it, beware, a compression joint WILL fit (just about), but seal it well or you will have it all leaking out of the joint.
As a small point 100l/km is always used by the manufacturers in the small print (and I think legally must be) but in practice the given figure is always in MPG. One difficulty here with converting (in one's head) is that it is a reciprocal conversion, one can't simply multiply by some rule of thumb (e.g. C to F one can multiply by 2 and add 30, that's about right. It's not spot on, I know the exact conversion, but it does for day-to-day conversation and is very easy to do in one's head).
Residential property guides in the UK virtually always give room sizes in feet × feet and the footprint of the property in (fractions of) acres. I am not sure nowadays about commercial property, that may be slowly moving over to metric, it does seem to be.
Although I use SI all the time at work, from the subatomic level (where again they give way to other units such as Van de Vaals derived units) to astromonical size units, and they're very handy for that kind of thing, my horses still always lose by a short head, my pencil is 2B not measured in Rohms hardness, and so on.
Carpets give an interesting example in that prices are generally given in square yards and metres both. There was a concerted effort in the mid 70s to move it over to metric. However, one large trader realised that a square yard was perceived as pretty much the same as a square metre but the price would seem a lot cheaper-- part of the metrication process was a slogan was "a metre is about three foot three, not much bigger than a yard, you see?" and so of course then all the other traders also followed suit and everyone was soon back on square yards.
I remember when they switched from 1/6 gill to 25ml measures for shorts a lot of pub chains had ads for "new larger measures" even though the difference is only about 5%, and 1/4 gill to 35ml measure is actually a shorter measure (1/4 gill is 35.5ml). It is that kind of thing that makes people very wary of switching to metric. The same happens, of course, with currency changeover (e.g. for the Euro)-- I can't seem to find a good article discussing the worry about that I think the German wikipedia has a good one "Teuro"? (Fat euro or something).
Draught beer and cider MUST be served by a third of a pint, half a pint, or multiples thereof. Milk (and I thought Orange Juice but have never been able to find this) may be served in pints to the doorstep in returnable bottles-- though really to me that is rather irrelevant since one could just as easily deliver 568ml.
Just some rambling thoughts to show that in the UK the use of Imperial measure is not dead, it is not restricted to "those over 75" (I am half that age), it is not anti-European or anything, it is people just using units that make sense in their daily lives. SimonTrew ( talk) 18:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Interesting discussion. I would like to respond to some points.
Actually, this last provision is actually an oversimplification of what really happens in British articles. Some, like Shetland Islands give distances in kilometres while others like Hampstead Heath give the height of the highest hill in feet. The measures really are all over the shop, and that is why I proposed making a recommendation that Wikipedia articles on the UK and its dependancies should generally prefer metric measures. However, this proposal has proved to be quite unacceptable to several editors here, so I won't push it any further in MOSUM.
By the way, there are 1760 yards, 5280 feet and 63,360 inches in a mile. Michael Glass ( talk) 08:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Both the Hampstead Heath and Shetland Islands articles are largely (though not completely) consistent in their use of measures. It would be better to leave them alone than apply some ham-fisted inconsistency of measures on them in the name of consistency. Michael Glass ( talk) 01:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
In response to Pfainuk, I have the following to state:
What I meant by involuntary inconsistency is when the use of units in the UK in 2009 is frozen in aspic and foisted on all, whether they want it or not. I think it is better to leave it to the good sense of editors to make their own arrangements in this transitional period. However, I would add that it is helpful to suggest the use of the metric system. I hope that this makes my meaning clearer. Michael Glass ( talk) 13:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all, I do not believe in imposing on editors either the Imperial or the metric system for UK articles, but rather leave it to the good sense of the editors to choose the units to put first.
There are three things that I would like to recommended about UK articles.
All three together would provide the guidance that is needed with the flexibility that is required. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I think there is some merit in your suggested wording. I'll think this over. Michael Glass ( talk) 03:40, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
First of all I am impressed by the work you have put into the suggestion above. It has real merit, but I think that the use of units in an article should be largely determined by the use of units in the majority of the sources quoted. Here is a suggested revision of what you proposed:
I have tried to preserve all the good features of your suggested wording, but to put them in a more concise form (72 words instead of 87) but it may still be too long to fit comfortably into the guideline. I look forward to your feedback on this suggestion. Michael Glass ( talk) 14:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I feel the best clarification would be:
This would help to encourage the use of units based on the sources rather than the whims of individual editors. Michael Glass ( talk) 00:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
What is your problem with finding or verifying sources for information? Michael Glass ( talk) 01:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Do you mean you don't have a problem with finding sources of information and verifying information? Good. End of discussion. Michael Glass ( talk) 11:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Please note, by the way, when giving examples of inconsistency in Jersey, Guernsey etc the Channel Islands are not part of the United Kingdom. They are a Crown dependency. It is important I think in this discussion to make that distinction, since specifically we seem to have rounded upon use in the UK and in UK articles (the two of which of course overlap). It is wrong to imply, as Michael Glass has done severally in this argument, that they are part of the UK. Similarly to say "Great Britain"-- Northern Ireland, though part of the UK, is not part of Great Britain (it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). Ignoring these distinctions brings detriment to the argument about usage in "UK articles". SimonTrew ( talk) 20:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
What matters is which units of measurement are used in Jersey etc., not any other geo-political stuff. -- A. di M. (formerly Army1987) — Deeds, not words. 13:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Aircraft height is always in feet, but usually just given as a level e.g. climb to level 250 is 25,000 feet. With modern altimeters, autopilots and so forth, a commercial airliner will be almost bang on to 25,000 feet with an astonishing degree of accuracy (as, say, reported by GPS systems). Of course "height above sea level" depends on the definition of sea level but that is another story. Similarly, distances are in nautical miles which are defined in SI (whatever) as 1852m (the knot, nm per hour, being a derived unit). SimonTrew ( talk) 00:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
This request for comment is for several related questions. This RfC is about the appearance of the numbers, and whether they can be successfully cut-and-pasted into other applications. The templates used to format them is not the topic of this discussion; template coding can follow whatever conclusions the RfC comes to.
The Manual of Style (dates and numbers) (MOSNUM) for quite a while advocated comma separators to the left of the decimal, and either no separators, or gap separators, to the right of the decimal. However, none of the examples in the MOSNUM or in the documentation for the {{ Val}} illustrated that this could occur in the same number, thus creating a style clash within the same number. About a week ago this was changed to allow 4046.8564224 or 4,046.8564224 but not 4,046.856 422 4. Today the change was reverted and the reverting editor suggested wider input be sought.
(In case you are curious where the number 4046.8564224 came from, it is the exact number of square meters in an international acre.) -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 02:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
It is not the job of Wikipedia to promote change in the way the world works by adopting good ideas by standard bodies just because they are good ideas and come from standard bodies. Wikipedia generally simply follows the way the world really works. Truly good ideas from standards bodies usually rapidly gain traction in the real world. When that happens, Wikipedia follows suit. In other cases, such as the IEC’s proposal that the world adopt the new binary prefixes like “256 mebibyte”, the proposal falls on its face. And again, notwithstanding the compelling virtues of the IEC’s proposal, Wikipedia ignores the proposal so as to not confuse our readership. Note also that the rule of SI is to have a space between the number and the percent symbol, such as “50 %” rather than the “50%” we are all accustomed to. Like the rest of the world, we ignore that one too.
As regards the delimiting of large numbers and/or high-precision numbers in all our general-interest articles, Wikipedia specifies the U.S. method of delimiting numbers using commas in the significand because that causes the least confusion with its readership. U.S. readers are far and wide entirely unfamiliar with other delimiting conventions whereas their European counterparts are typically comfortable with several different methods and are not in the least confused by the U.S. convention. Scientific articles are a notable exception, since the language of science is scientific papers which follow the SI method so that such papers can be read by a world-wide audience. Even then, delimiting with narrow spaces is allowed in our scientific articles—not required. Greg L ( talk) 02:19, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Minor correction and comment: I thought the {{ val}} template would close up the gap in a number like 0.1234 but not in a number like 0.1234567. It turns out that it does close up the gap in the latter number to avoid leaving a single digit at the right end of the number. One of the international bodies, the BIPM, in the The International System of Units (SI), (p. 133) indicates the gap may be omitted when there are 4 digits to the left or right of the decimal , but not more than 4. ("However, when there are only four digits before or after the decimal marker, it is customary not to use a space to isolate a single digit.") Of course, since {{ Val}} does not profess to follow any international standard, this behavior can't be regarded as an error. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 02:51, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
1.1
1.12
1.123
1.1234
1.12345
1.123456
1.1234567
1.12345678
1.123456789
1.1234567890
etc.
I noticed also that you have had difficulty using {{ val}} and have been getting error flags as shown here. Simply omit the commas and it will work fine. Your unfamiliarity with the template may underlie why you are uncomfortable with it.
{{ Val}} produces scientific notation values like this:
Conductance quantum G0 = 7.7480917004(53)×10−5 S. Compare that to the value here at the NIST. They are identical because {{val}} follows the convention used by science for scientific notation.
{{Val}} is smart enough to handle the entire progression of delimiting, up to 14 significant digits, it won’t do a line-end word-wrap anywhere in the equivalency, it uses narrow spaces on both sides of the × symbol, and it even knows to use a true minus sign in the exponent (10−5) instead of the hyphen (10-5) you would get if you simply type it off the keyboard.
Editors are encouraged to use {{val}} because it delimits long, high-precision strings of digits to the right of the decimal marker and provides consistent, well-formatted output.
Your objection seems to be over how it combines the practice of commas to the left, and narrow spaces to the right in numbers that aren’t scientific notation. Indeed, {{val}} follows MOSNUM guidelines for numbers containing four or more digits to the left and delimits them with commas. Your proposed solution (simply adopt the European practice of thin spaces both left and right) is contrary to MOSNUM and is very confusing to U.S. readers.
The simple solution, is rather than try to change the way the world works, is for you to simply not use {{val}} to delimit on the right of the decimal marker for those relatively rare occasions where there are simultaneously four or more digits to the left. You are perfectly free to write 4,046.8564224 rather than the 4046.8564224 {{val}} generates for you. That should make you happy, and it would make me happy. I would encourage you, however, to avail yourself of the {{val}} template. Why? Because, since you are expressing five or more digits to the right of the decimal point, I assume you intend readers to actually read and understand those digits. Delimiting to the right helps to parse those digits just as delimiting with commas to the left helps to parse the digits on that side. Greg L ( talk)
In reply to Greg L's comments above, I see an example in the previously mentioned International System of Units {SI) brochure on page 126 that confirms Greg's belief that it is OK to eliminate the rightmost gap to avoid isolating the last digit after the decimal, even if there are more than four digits to the right of the decimal: 9.109 3826 (16) × 10−31 kg. Still, the vals template does not follow the BIPM/NIST/ISO convention for all cases because for some numbers, it violates the convention: "Neither dots nor commas are inserted in the spaces between groups of three." (ibid. p. 133)
However, I can't accept the idea of not using the val template when a number has both 5 or more digits to the left, and also 5 or more digits to the right of the decimal. It is very common for one template to invoke another template, so the editor who is actually typing the number may not be aware that the val template is being called. It would also be very confusing for an editor who is not especially familiar with the val template, and is just updating a number that was originally put in by someone else. It would be much better to alter the behavior of the val template so it produces acceptable results for any numbers, no special cases. (The problem of high precision numbers in scientific notation is understandable, since it is an issue for representing such numbers in most computer applications.)
As for using thin spaces to the left of the decimal being confusing to the general interest reader, I'm not convinced that is any more confusing than using two different digit grouping marks in the same article. Remember, the context here is an article where some of the numbers have five or more digits to the right of the decimal, so the reader will have to figure out what the thin spaces mean. Given that the reader figures this out, how hard is it to realize the same convention is being used to the left of the decimal? -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 04:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
It's not a matter of changing the world, but rather of serving the needs of the encylopedia most effectively. We ought to do what we can to improve Wikipedia, even if there are prevailing conditions in the wider world that make Wikipedia's style decisions inappropriate elsewhere.
So on the topic of the RfC at hand (starting with item #2), the answers vary depending on the degree to which we're willing to be prescriptive, and conversely, the degree to which we're bound by local convention. I'd suggest that in an encyclopedia with an international audience, we'd be best served by using a number format that is understood in the least ambiguous terms. It just so happens that this is the exact problem that the BIPM convention is designed to address. It's a good system, not simply because respectable authorities recommend it for contexts where interlanguage or international communication might be necessary, but because it's strong on its own merits. (You can't confuse 1,234 and 1.234, most importantly.) It's weakest feature is the fact that American audiences are very likely to be unfamiliar with it. On balance, however, most Wikipedia users are likely to correctly understand numbers formatted in this fashion, even if it takes a moment the first time they see it. As a bonus, the use of CSS allows this number to be copied without digit grouping symbols (i.e. copy 4046.8564224 and the clipboard contains 4046.8564224), makes the number non-breaking, and employs spacing in an unobtrusive and readable fashion. Item #2 is acceptable and preferable (and therefore should always be permitted as an option).
In terms of item #1, I don't particularly like the mixing of delimiting characters, but that's an aesthetic issue with relatively little traction. From a readability perspective, it is superior to not grouping digits on the RHS, because the thousands places are clearly displayed. Given that we will presumably maintain a version of the U.S. customary digit grouping method, I wouldn't be opposed to #1. (I've seen a variant on this using commas on both sides, but I'm informed that in modern U.S. practice this is rare. I wouldn't be opposed to that either.)
For #3, if the output with or without {{ gaps}} would be identical, then there's no need to require the template. If the number needs digit grouping (according to whatever style is in effect), then the output ought to be consistent within the article. I definitely like the concept of {{ val}}, because of its ability to format difficult numbers. Its design is such that for some cases, however, {{gaps}} has to be used, because of technical limitations. We shouldn't mandate converting an article exclusively to one or the other, when both output similarly-formatted results. TheFeds 06:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
…it was extensively discussed and voted upon a bit lower, also here on Archive 94 on WT:MOSNUM, and…
…it was well received here on WT:MOS Archive 97 where its functionality tweaked to a compromise that received broad acceptance.
Also, a main testing sandbox is here on a subpage in my userspace, which also has links to other related sandboxes. Greg L ( talk) 02:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) RexxS, I can see why accessibility is an argument against using commas both to the left and right of the decimal, but I don't see why it would be an argument against using thin spaces to both the right and left of the decimal. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 02:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I was kind of invited to this RFC. Some notes I took during the reading of this discussion:
In the Mile article the number "1,609.344" combines "," and "." and makes this a really confusing number. In school "," was taught as the comma delimiter. Besides the number can't be copy & pasted directly into any other calculation tool. And on a larger level the article just shows that a measurement such as a mile or mph etc.. have an unclear definition in contrast to km/h (1000 meters per 3600 seconds). At least it's not straightforward. Electron9 ( talk) 01:53, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
On June 3, User:TheFeds changed the digit grouping section. I endorse the spirit of the change, but I mercilessly edited it to conform to my understanding of many printed style guides (I suspect my edit reflects what TheFeds had in mind). I wish to call editors attention to the fact that the {{ Val}} template does not conform to the changed MOSNUM, in that it uses commas to the left and thin spaces to the right, even in the same number (e.g. 123456.78901). If this change is accepted, the Vals template can be changed to conform to the change. -- Jc3s5h ( talk) 11:53, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
9.59 Comma between digits
In most numerals of one thousand or more, commas are used between groups of three digits, counting from the right. (In scientific writing, commas are often omitted from four-digit numbers.
1,512
32,987
4,000,500
No commas are used in page numbers, addresses, and years (though years of five digits or more do include the comma.)
Punctuation conventions can be found on page 1535 of the tenth edition.
Our business office is at 11030 South Langley Avenue.
Human artifacts dating from between 35,000 BP and 5000 BP have been found there.
9.60 Space between digits
In the International System of Units, half-spaces rather than commas are used to mark off groups of three digits, both to the left and to the right of the decimal point. In numbers of only four digits either to the left or the right of the decimal point, no space is used (except in table columns with numbers having five or more digits). This system is far more common in Europe than in the United States. Chicago’s Astrophysical Journal, for example, uses commas, not spaces (see bibliog. 5). See also 9.22, 9.59.
3 426 869
0.000 007
2501.4865 (four-digit numbers require no space)
See B. N. Taylor, Guide for the Use of the International System of Units (SI) (bibliog. 2.4).
Since the change to allow numbers formatted like 12345.67809 and discourage the format 12345.67809 has not been challenged for nearly a week, let me ask a related question. If one of the numbers in an article uses gaps to group digits, should all the numbers in the article be changed to match.
For example, if an article currently reads there are 43,560 square feet in an acre and an exact SI conversion is added, should it revised to say there are 43,560 43560 square feet (exactly 4046.8564224
m2) in an international acre? --
Jc3s5h (
talk)
17:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Being a Dane living in England, I have lived with two different ways of presenting the same information (Denmark uses a comma as the decimal separator and a point as the digit group delimiter, whereas England uses a point as the decimal separator and a comma as digit group delimiter) and I find the BIPM way the least confusing solution as 1,234.567 is ambiguous: Is it 1234.567, i.e. the English interpretation, or 1,234567, the Danish interpretation? By using spaces only as digit group delimiters, no number will be ambiguous, whether a point or a comma is used as decimal separator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.201.76 ( talk • contribs) 17 June 2009
As regards the delimiting of large numbers and/or high-precision numbers in all our general-interest articles, Wikipedia specifies the U.S. method of delimiting numbers using commas in the significand because that causes the least confusion with its readership. U.S. readers are far and wide entirely unfamiliar with other delimiting conventions whereas their European counterparts are typically comfortable with several different methods and are not in the least confused by the U.S. convention. Scientific articles are a notable exception, since the language of science is scientific papers which follow the SI method so that such papers can be read by a world-wide audience. Even then, delimiting with narrow spaces is allowed in our scientific articles—not required.
Please remember that the overriding principal on Wikipedia is to follow practices that cause the least confusion with its readership. Note also that the rule of SI is to have a space between the number and the percent symbol, such as “50 %” rather than the “50%” we are all accustomed to. So that our articles cause the least confusion and look most natural, we wisely ignore that suggestion (yes, even thought it comes from the BIPM and their SI).
I note that the two of you (The Feds and you, Jc3s5h) have been having a discussion amongst yourselves, above, and have been quietly making changes to MOSNUM without buy-in and consensus of the rest of the Wikipedian community. I know you clearly believe what you are suggesting is a better way to do things. Please bear in mind that MOSNUM guidelines are often the product of tortuous and lengthy (often very lengthy) discussions and are done a certain way for a reason. When a situation arrises where a proposal, as you wrote above, has not been challenged for nearly a week, that does not equate to acquiescence and agreement with a proposal. Please widen the discussion so there is a clear consensus before revising MOSNUM. Greg L ( talk) 02:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
This discussion came about as a result of two different versions of part of the "Large numbers" section. The first example below incorporates some clarifications I made, plus some changes Jc3s5h made. The second example is the prior version of that section. Now that we've been discussing it for a while, I'd like to see whether others feel that the first example is clearer overall, and should therefore be the basis for the eventual revision of the section. I know I'm of that opinion, principally because that version is clearer about what is permissible and in what situations, states individual possibilities in separate bullets, and covers cases that are ambiguous in the other version. Does anyone feel that the second option is clearer?
- In a number with many digits, digit grouping symbols (inserted at intervals from the decimal point) should be used to subdivide the number into easily readable groups. The acceptable digit grouping schemes are:
- Commas every three digits (8,274,527) only to the left of the decimal point, with no grouping to the right of the decimal point. This is traditional usage in many English-language contexts.
- Thin, non-breaking spaces every three digits (8274527 or 0.12345). This format is suggested in BIPM and NIST style guides for scientific works, and is in common use in interlanguage contexts. The {{ gaps}} template uses CSS to produce this output (using the syntax
{{gaps|8|274|527}}
). The 
character may cause rendering problems in some browsers, and should be avoided when practical.- Other traditional digit grouping schemes, when relevant to the subject matter of the article (e.g. 82,74,527 in the Indian numbering system).
- When a number has exactly four digits on any side of the decimal separator, those digits may optionally be expressed as a group of four instead of three (e.g. both 9876 and 0.9876 are acceptable).
- In large numbers (i.e., in numbers greater than or equal to 10,000), commas are generally used to break the sequence every three places left of the decimal point, e.g. 8,274,527. In scientific and mathematical contexts, {{ gaps}} may be used to insert thin spaces, e.g.
{{gaps|8|274|527}}
produces 8274527 (note: the thin space character and its HTML entity, 
, do not render correctly on some browsers). Consistency within an article is desirable as always.
If we generally prefer the first example, we should implement that change to the MOS (it got reverted during the course of our discussion), because it's generally independent of the RfC going on below. (The result of the RfC can easily be added, once it is established—until then, we can stick to the status quo for the U.S. customary style guideline) Any objections or suggestions? TheFeds 07:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Following the 9th CGPM (1948, Resolution 7) and the 22nd CGPM (2003, Resolution 10), for numbers with many digits the digits may be divided into groups of three by a thin space, in order to facilitate reading. Neither dots nor commas are inserted in the spaces between groups of three. However, when there are only four digits before or after the decimal marker, it is customary not to use a space to isolate a single digit.
Cependant, lorsqu’il n’y a que quatre chiffres avant ou après le séparateur décimal, il est d’usage de ne pas isoler un chiffre par un espace.
- In a number with many digits, digit grouping symbols (inserted at intervals from the decimal point) should be used to subdivide the number into easily readable groups. The acceptable digit grouping schemes are:
- Commas every three digits to the left of the decimal point, and no grouping to the right of the decimal point (e.g. 8,274,527 or 0.12345). This is traditional usage in many English-language contexts.
- Thin, non-breaking spaces every three digits (e.g. 8274527 or 0.12345). This format is suggested in BIPM and NIST style guides for scientific and engineering works, and is in common use in interlanguage contexts. The {{ gaps}} template uses CSS to produce this output (using the syntax
{{gaps|8|274|527}}
). Using HTML entities for this purpose (e.g. 
or 
) may cause rendering problems in some browsers, and should be avoided when practical.- Other traditional digit grouping schemes, when relevant to the subject matter of the article (e.g. 82,74,527 in the Indian numbering system).
- When a number has exactly four digits on any side of the decimal separator, those digits may optionally be expressed as a group of four instead of three (e.g. both 9876 and 0.9876 are acceptable).