![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Because this page is so long, I have moved the archives list to an archive directory. Maurreen 17:12, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if discussion of the following is moved to a separate page?
I have filed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment about jguk's behavior. Maurreen 09:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested, I wanted to let you know that I have reopened the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes). Maurreen 06:57, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There is currently a bit of controversy over whether Wikipedia writers should follow AP conventions or Strunk and White's conventions for dealing with possessives of words that end in 's'. For example, is it "Texas' Law" or "Texas's Law"? It would be nice if the Wikipedia Manual of Style could provide some guidance on this. Some articles have been reverted back and forth many times due to this controversy.
Using either "s's" or "s'" is standard English - there's no reason for us to prefer one form over another. I don't see why there should be a controversy - unless those who prefer one form over another seek to impose their views on those who prefer the other form. Use whatever seems sensible at the time. jguk 23:51, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
BTW, it looks like this issue was already discussed here back in July, but nothing came of it: Talk Archive 6. Kaldari 02:20, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I started that earlier discussion (the one now in Talk Archive 6). The Strunk and White style still seems better to me. Olbers's paradox is preferable because hearing Olbers' paradox (pronounced "Olbers" instead of "Olberses") will lead some people to think that it's Olber's paradox. Nevertheless, that particular example, like for goodness' sake, might be a candidate for an exception, something like: "Form the possessive singular of nouns with 's. Follow this rule whatever the final consonant. Exception: Omit the s after the apostrophe if a particular possessive has become generally known without the final s." One argument advanced at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Olbers's paradox → Olbers' paradox is that this particular phrase, which dates back to Olbers's work in 1823, is more often written as Olbers' paradox. I admit that making such an exception would lead to sentences like "Olbers's students were initially confused by his explanation of Olbers' paradox." JamesMLane 22:30, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How does this sound:
Possessives ending in s
Authoritative sources differ on how to handle possessive nouns that end with the letter s. Some say to add an apostrophe and an s at the end. Other say to just add an apostrophe. Still others say it depends on whether the word is a proper noun, the s is pronounced a certain way, or a variety of other conditions are met. Because there does not seem to be a widespread consensus on how to handle possessives ending in s, both usages are considered acceptable in Wikipedia. In general, whichever usage of a particular word or phrase is most common should be used. For example, Olbers' paradox is more commonly used than Olbers's paradox.
Kaldari 17:27, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How about this:
Possessives
To form the possessive of a singular noun that ends in s, the general rule is to add an apostrophe and an s, for example, Charles's book. Exceptions to this rule are as follows:
For plural nouns that do not end in s, add an apostrophe-s, for example, children's, not childrens'.
Kaldari 20:33, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How about a more concise way, such as this:
If we are to explicitly state we have no preference, we need to be more explicit than Maurreen. Perhaps something along the lines of, "Where, a standard form of English permits possessives of words ending in 's' to be formed with or without an additional 's', we have no preference between those styles", jguk 01:44, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
OK, how does this sound:
Possessives
Opinions differ on how to form the possessive of singular nouns that end with the letter s. Some sources say to add an apostrophe and an s at the end. Others say to just add an apostrophe. Because there does not seem to be a widespread consensus on how to handle possessives of this form, both usages are considered acceptable in Wikipedia. In general, whichever usage of a particular word or phrase is most common should be used. For example, Achilles' heel is more commonly used than Achilles's heel.
For plural nouns that do not end in s, add an apostrophe and an s to form the possessive, for example, children's, not childrens'.
Kaldari 03:19, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've seen a bunch of articles that italicize fictional characters, for example, "Anthony Hopkins won an Oscar for his portrayal of Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs." I've never seen this before. Is there any precedent for this? I've also seen character names placed in quotes instead of italics. Should something about this be placed in the style guide? – flamurai TM 08:00, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
"Ban" is a strong word here. I also agree that that style shouldn't be used. Peter O. ( Talk) 19:22, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
Do we have a standard form for writing ellipses? It seems to me that most style guides use "x . . . y", with spaces before and after each dot. Many people seem to use "x...y" or "x ... y", however. A standard would be nice. -- Simetrical 01:18, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I lean toward agreement with James on this. Maurreen 07:11, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The common solution among typesetters and graphic designers is right in the middle:
-- an ellipses character (which separates the three periods slightly, but not as much as a full space), preceded and followed by a "thin space." This solution isn't really available outside of typesetting situations, but that's the ideal from a publisher's point of view. KJCampbell 14:38, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If everyone used Firefox, we could do that, but IE doesn't like abnormal spaces. It only accepts the basic space ( ), the non-breaking space ( ), the zero-width space (), and the ideographic space ( ). Firefox, however ƒ is different. :) You IE users see that as a frigging enormous space, but we Firefoxers get a thin space, just as intended. — Simetrical ( talk) 00:40, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I tried to find some good advice on structuring articles in wikipedia namespaces. All I found were some pages in the Style and How-to Directory, some pages in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, and some links on template:FAPath. They mostly deal with the issue from a general stylistic and aesthetic viewpoint, and only touch on the underlying reasons for giving a logical and fairly standardized structure to encyclopedia articles.
I've therefore written up a draft guideline for writing articles in a "pyramid structure". Being mostly based on common sense, it is in part a description of what we already do, but its goal is also to explain why structuring articles in this way is good. It's at User:Zocky/Pyramid structure. Please feel free to improve and comment.
I'm not sure how to proceed. Proper structure should obviously be a FA requirement, and this should probably also be in the how-to series. But since structure is a fundamental editorial issue which heavily affects both quality and NPOV, it could also be a part of the Manual of Style. Zocky 19:45, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A massive chunk of information seems to have been carelessly lost in this edit. I am talking about the section on External Links in particular. This is referenced as [[WP:MOS#External Links]] from a number of places. E.g., the editing help, the external links page and so on. Given the amount of editing that has gone on, I'm not going to do an immediate revert to the version from November 24 before that edit, but I think it might be a good idea, at least until the material is moved elsewhere and/or correctly linked. Comments anyone? Mozzerati 10:01, 2005 Jan 22 (UTC)
I can't see any guide to when to write numbers as words. Am I missing something?
The style that I picked up somewhere is to always use numerals when a number is being referred to, such as he lived at No. 3, or It is at entry 8, but to use words otherwise, if the value is less than 13. Thus He had eight children, and She is 23 years old.
Comments? Philip J. Rayment 12:25, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I tend to prefer writing almost everything out as words. Since the style guide doesn't say we shouldn't write out "six million", I'll continue to do so. — Simetrical 20:21, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Because this page is so long, I have moved the archives list to an archive directory. Maurreen 17:12, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if discussion of the following is moved to a separate page?
I have filed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment about jguk's behavior. Maurreen 09:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In case anyone is interested, I wanted to let you know that I have reopened the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (jguk's changes). Maurreen 06:57, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There is currently a bit of controversy over whether Wikipedia writers should follow AP conventions or Strunk and White's conventions for dealing with possessives of words that end in 's'. For example, is it "Texas' Law" or "Texas's Law"? It would be nice if the Wikipedia Manual of Style could provide some guidance on this. Some articles have been reverted back and forth many times due to this controversy.
Using either "s's" or "s'" is standard English - there's no reason for us to prefer one form over another. I don't see why there should be a controversy - unless those who prefer one form over another seek to impose their views on those who prefer the other form. Use whatever seems sensible at the time. jguk 23:51, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
BTW, it looks like this issue was already discussed here back in July, but nothing came of it: Talk Archive 6. Kaldari 02:20, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I started that earlier discussion (the one now in Talk Archive 6). The Strunk and White style still seems better to me. Olbers's paradox is preferable because hearing Olbers' paradox (pronounced "Olbers" instead of "Olberses") will lead some people to think that it's Olber's paradox. Nevertheless, that particular example, like for goodness' sake, might be a candidate for an exception, something like: "Form the possessive singular of nouns with 's. Follow this rule whatever the final consonant. Exception: Omit the s after the apostrophe if a particular possessive has become generally known without the final s." One argument advanced at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Olbers's paradox → Olbers' paradox is that this particular phrase, which dates back to Olbers's work in 1823, is more often written as Olbers' paradox. I admit that making such an exception would lead to sentences like "Olbers's students were initially confused by his explanation of Olbers' paradox." JamesMLane 22:30, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How does this sound:
Possessives ending in s
Authoritative sources differ on how to handle possessive nouns that end with the letter s. Some say to add an apostrophe and an s at the end. Other say to just add an apostrophe. Still others say it depends on whether the word is a proper noun, the s is pronounced a certain way, or a variety of other conditions are met. Because there does not seem to be a widespread consensus on how to handle possessives ending in s, both usages are considered acceptable in Wikipedia. In general, whichever usage of a particular word or phrase is most common should be used. For example, Olbers' paradox is more commonly used than Olbers's paradox.
Kaldari 17:27, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How about this:
Possessives
To form the possessive of a singular noun that ends in s, the general rule is to add an apostrophe and an s, for example, Charles's book. Exceptions to this rule are as follows:
For plural nouns that do not end in s, add an apostrophe-s, for example, children's, not childrens'.
Kaldari 20:33, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How about a more concise way, such as this:
If we are to explicitly state we have no preference, we need to be more explicit than Maurreen. Perhaps something along the lines of, "Where, a standard form of English permits possessives of words ending in 's' to be formed with or without an additional 's', we have no preference between those styles", jguk 01:44, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
OK, how does this sound:
Possessives
Opinions differ on how to form the possessive of singular nouns that end with the letter s. Some sources say to add an apostrophe and an s at the end. Others say to just add an apostrophe. Because there does not seem to be a widespread consensus on how to handle possessives of this form, both usages are considered acceptable in Wikipedia. In general, whichever usage of a particular word or phrase is most common should be used. For example, Achilles' heel is more commonly used than Achilles's heel.
For plural nouns that do not end in s, add an apostrophe and an s to form the possessive, for example, children's, not childrens'.
Kaldari 03:19, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've seen a bunch of articles that italicize fictional characters, for example, "Anthony Hopkins won an Oscar for his portrayal of Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs." I've never seen this before. Is there any precedent for this? I've also seen character names placed in quotes instead of italics. Should something about this be placed in the style guide? – flamurai TM 08:00, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
"Ban" is a strong word here. I also agree that that style shouldn't be used. Peter O. ( Talk) 19:22, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
Do we have a standard form for writing ellipses? It seems to me that most style guides use "x . . . y", with spaces before and after each dot. Many people seem to use "x...y" or "x ... y", however. A standard would be nice. -- Simetrical 01:18, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I lean toward agreement with James on this. Maurreen 07:11, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The common solution among typesetters and graphic designers is right in the middle:
-- an ellipses character (which separates the three periods slightly, but not as much as a full space), preceded and followed by a "thin space." This solution isn't really available outside of typesetting situations, but that's the ideal from a publisher's point of view. KJCampbell 14:38, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If everyone used Firefox, we could do that, but IE doesn't like abnormal spaces. It only accepts the basic space ( ), the non-breaking space ( ), the zero-width space (), and the ideographic space ( ). Firefox, however ƒ is different. :) You IE users see that as a frigging enormous space, but we Firefoxers get a thin space, just as intended. — Simetrical ( talk) 00:40, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I tried to find some good advice on structuring articles in wikipedia namespaces. All I found were some pages in the Style and How-to Directory, some pages in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, and some links on template:FAPath. They mostly deal with the issue from a general stylistic and aesthetic viewpoint, and only touch on the underlying reasons for giving a logical and fairly standardized structure to encyclopedia articles.
I've therefore written up a draft guideline for writing articles in a "pyramid structure". Being mostly based on common sense, it is in part a description of what we already do, but its goal is also to explain why structuring articles in this way is good. It's at User:Zocky/Pyramid structure. Please feel free to improve and comment.
I'm not sure how to proceed. Proper structure should obviously be a FA requirement, and this should probably also be in the how-to series. But since structure is a fundamental editorial issue which heavily affects both quality and NPOV, it could also be a part of the Manual of Style. Zocky 19:45, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A massive chunk of information seems to have been carelessly lost in this edit. I am talking about the section on External Links in particular. This is referenced as [[WP:MOS#External Links]] from a number of places. E.g., the editing help, the external links page and so on. Given the amount of editing that has gone on, I'm not going to do an immediate revert to the version from November 24 before that edit, but I think it might be a good idea, at least until the material is moved elsewhere and/or correctly linked. Comments anyone? Mozzerati 10:01, 2005 Jan 22 (UTC)
I can't see any guide to when to write numbers as words. Am I missing something?
The style that I picked up somewhere is to always use numerals when a number is being referred to, such as he lived at No. 3, or It is at entry 8, but to use words otherwise, if the value is less than 13. Thus He had eight children, and She is 23 years old.
Comments? Philip J. Rayment 12:25, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I tend to prefer writing almost everything out as words. Since the style guide doesn't say we shouldn't write out "six million", I'll continue to do so. — Simetrical 20:21, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)