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Maybe this is a subject like race is in the United States: difficult to have an amicable and productive discussion about.
Sometimes there appears to be at least a distaste for American English (or the United States) in and of itself. In my opinion, this is at best inappropriate.
I have asked at least once (although it was some time ago) for input on improving international relation in general or the about language issue in particular. I got no takers. Maurreen 12:19, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Jguk and Zoney, you just keep asserting that having an article on Tony Blair in AE is bad and would piss people off, but you don't say why; and that having your rule (ii above) will prevent edit wars better than the first-major-contributer rule, but again don't say why. It would be nice to see an argument. The advantage of first-major-contributer is that there is no room for dispute. Whereas with the notion of "closely-related topics," there's a great deal of room for dispute about what that means, so you can't hail it as superior with regard to settling disagreements. Also, you state that many Wikipedians think this or that, but with no evidence. Please: no more appeals to majoritarianism especially without evidence. SlimVirgin 00:21, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, Zoney. I'm not being intentionally obtuse here, but I genuinely didn't understand some of what you said. For example, "[H]aving more than one form of English is (in absolute terms) inconsistent." Can you put this differently? And again, you say topics pertaining to particular country are all written in the same form of English and it is jarring to read about native topics in a non-native form of English, but these are assertions about your views, not arguments. I don't find it at all jarring, and we can't do a poll of all Wikipedians; even if we could, that still wouldn't constitute an argument. By the way, I'm not arguing in favor of, as you put it, "random English varieties" in one article. I agree that articles should be internally consistent in terms of style. But I'm saying that I haven't yet seen an argument in favor of imposing the closely-related-topic rule on Wikipedia, as opposed to the first-major-contributer rule.
I also didn't understand about the "proposal that non-national series of articles be written in one form of English."
I think it's important to develop arguments for proposals like this, rather than simply asserting "it's jarring" or "we don't like it". For example, what are the benefits/drawbacks of the "closely-related-topic" proposal? What are the benefits/drawbacks of the first-major-contributer rule? Which rule can better cope with editing disputes? Also, please bear in mind that, even with the first-major-contributer rule, the chances of Tony Blair ending up in American English are close to zero, because British PMs will tend to be written about first by British editors. And even if that is not the case, editors may concede their positions without there being a rule forcing them to, as I did with Bernard Williams, for example. SlimVirgin 01:46, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to tease out any arguments for that reason, because we can't write a style guide that's based on anti-Americanism, or any other prejudice. For example, I wince every time I see "organisation" but that's not an argument, and is therefore irrelevant. I'm hopeful we can try to put aside all prejudices and look at the issue in terms of cost/benefit, bearing in mind that we're here to act in Wikipedia's interests and not to promote or attack any particular country. SlimVirgin 02:16, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
For whatever it is worth, I also agree that it is appropriate that articles on an English-speaking country should follow the spelling standards of that country, and that while all articles should strive for international comprehensibility, local usage should generally be followed: for example, someone has a "flat" in London, but an "apartment" in New York. The former is in a "block of flats", the latter in an "apartment building". -- Jmabel | Talk 07:09, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not in agreement with it. I would like to see first-major-contributer apply across the board, simply because it's easier, more consistent, and there's no ambiguity in the case of edit disputes. SlimVirgin 09:58, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Maurreen,
Alas, we are not all in agreement about this. My view is that "spelling" is too narrow, as it excludes punctuation, grammar, phraseology, etc. , which is why I prefer to refer to a "form of standard English". SlimVirgin, however, appears to disagree with the premise that an article on a topic closely related to a particular English-speaking country should be in a form of English (or indeed have spelling) used in that country.
On your second point here, we are having the discussion here in the hope that it will aid/prevent disputes such as the comma dispute on History of Russia. It's best to deal with most of the disputes here - deal with them once and for all - and then direct future disputes to this page. Kind regards, jguk 09:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I wonder how that rule could reduce edit wars, as it's so vague. "Closely related" is not defined; nor is "specific to", so if anyone were to dig their heels in, the edit war could not be decided with reference to the MoS, making the rule somewhat pointless, whereas first-major-contributer is clear. How would you deal with articles related to Israel? SlimVirgin 10:24, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
But English is used in Israel, and you want the rule to be that the style of English used in the country should be used in articles "closely related" to the country. I disagree that it's usually clear whether an article is "closely related" to one country over another, but I repeat my argument: the first-major-contributer rule makes it not "usually clear" but pretty well always clear. So why do you prefer usually to always? I still haven't seen an argument. SlimVirgin 10:52, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Why is there a "US v non-US English dispute" in Wikipedia in general or on this page in particular? Why is real or perceived Americo/U.S.-centric bias sometimes countered by subtraction instead of by additon? Why do some Wikipedians act prejudiced against Americans? Why are some people offended by American English or Americans or other things of U.S. origin, but not offended by others of U.S. origin (such as much technology, including Wikipedia)? Maurreen 19:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There are disputes between all forms of English. For example see Battle of Spion Kop over the spelling of Spioenkop. But the writers of U.S. English tend to get mixed up in more of them for several reasons including:
Regardless of what the style guide says, edit wars will be reduced by communication and cooperation. Regardless of what it says, it will not be perfect and it will not be followed 100 percent of the time. Regardless of what it says, for an article to be subject to an edit war over an issue covered by the style guide is inappropriate at best. Maurreen 19:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I often see editors changing the way quotations are indented. Many prefer to write blockquote; others prefer using a colon. I've been told the latter is "bad HTML." Does anyone know what the different schools of thought are on this? SlimVirgin 00:21, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Joe and flamurai. So if blockquote is correct (or more correct), does anyone know why some editors insist on changing it back to colon, and why the MoS now says colon, because I'm sure I read on a talk page discussion some time ago that other editors had agreed to use blockquote; though I didn't fully understand the discussion so may be misremembering it. SlimVirgin 07:22, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
I realized I didn't answer Mel's question. I have the same position. That is, I don't care how people do it, but I prefer the style guide not call for HTML. Maurreen 07:13, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It probably shouldn't call for colons though either, in my view, given that blockquote seems to be more correct. Perhaps both should be mentioned in the article by someone who understands the debate i.e. not me. SlimVirgin 07:17, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
i. Users should start articles in the form of English most familiar to them.
ii. When editing existing articles, users should try to stick to the form of English already used, unless the subject of the article makes another form of English appropriate. (examples could be given here)
iii. If users are unable to follow the existing form of English, they should make their edits anyway, and leave a note on the Talk page asking for a translation.
iv. If an article is found to contain different forms of English, it should be made consistent either with the subject of the article or with the first editor's usage.
v. Remember that many people will make honest mistakes, and that there's often room for genuine disagreement, so keep cool — accuracy and clarity are the most important qualities of an article.
I like Mel's suggestion, though (ii) and (iv) need to be nailed down, because they go to the heart of the dispute. Mel, when you use the word "appropriate" in (ii), how were you thinking it should be defined? SlimVirgin 00:29, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it's that Mel perceives a deficiency; as I understand it, he's put forward a suggestion that might be a compromise between two opposing positions. My position is that I disagree with what's currently in the MoS, and would like to see the first-major-contributer rule apply in every case: no exceptions. Jguk, as I understand him, believes the closely-related-topic rule should be extended even further, and wants it to cover the EU and also be extended beyond spelling. Perhaps Zoney favors that too, though I'm not certain. As neither side agrees with what's currently in the MoS, it would be a good idea to come up with a guideline that's clear enough to be capable of settling edit disputes, and that most contributers to this page can agree on. SlimVirgin 01:08, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
The current section isn't clear. It says: "Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the spelling of that country." "Topic specific to" is not defined. And it then goes on to give examples, but says "spelling and usage", not just spelling, with "usage" not defined. I don't see this wording as clear enough to sort out an editing dispute. But if you think it's clear as it is, I have no problem leaving it, so long as it doesn't get extended in any way. SlimVirgin 06:39, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
I suppose lots of people wouldn't like having the "first-major-contributer rule" across the board. And some people would oppose the extension of the "closely-related-topic" rule, like SlimVirgin, which I can also understand. The way it is seems to be the consensus of the majority. Therefore the current version should kept. Flo 06:47, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi Flo, it's the vagueness that worries me. For example, I find people outside the UK often don't know what a "flat" is, whereas everyone understands "apartment." I wouldn't want to see us use language that won't be understood by many readers in the interests of deferring to local usage. Interesting about using "ss". I always use "ss", in part because I use a Mac and unusual characters are sometimes rendered differently, but also because I learned in Germany that "ss" was regarded as correct, or just as correct. But here on Wikipedia, several editors feels they have to change it to ß. SlimVirgin 08:45, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
I've lived in North America and in the UK and have never heard Americans use the word "flat," though I've heard Brits use apartment, but not to mean an apartment on two floors specifically. I remember the horrible word "maisonette" being used for that, though perhaps that was just real-estate-agent-speak. I also remember that the BBC would say "block of flats" in their national news, and "apartment block" in their world news. Above all, I agree with Susvolans that nationalism should take a back seat to clarity (and to everything else, in my view). SlimVirgin 14:03, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
The reason I object to the idea that people have to be written about in the language of the country they were born or lived in, is that it has nationalist and almost racist connotations. I am not the property of any country, nation, or language. If someone wanted to write about me, I hope they would do so in whichever style they felt comfortable, and I hope no other editor would be so presumptious as to come along after the fact and alter the style of that article based on my place of birth, or place of residence, or place of work, or perhaps by counting the years I've spent here or there, to determine whether qua subject matter, I belong to American or British English. I find that notion deeply unintelligent. Writing an article is a creative act, and the writer has to be in charge, not the place of birth of the subject.
Publications are usually written in the style of English used in the mother country of the publication, though international publishers may have the resources to vary their publications from country to country. The English Wikipedia has decided not to follow the style of its mother country (America); and can't, or has chosen not to, differ from one English-speaking country to the next. Therefore, as editors, we can choose either to put the writer in control of the subject matter, or the subject matter in control of the writer. I submit that we should put the writer in control, and for practical purposes, to avoid inconsistency within articles, the first-major-contributer rule is the only one that makes sense. SlimVirgin 15:27, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
(I normally try to steer clear of style manual trivia, but) why does the manual include a recommendation that the serial comma be used? As our serial comma article points out, it a) is optional, b) can create as well as resolve ambiguity, and c) is largely (albeit not exclusively) used in American but not British English. All these are reasons why we shouldn't take a position. Mark 1 07:11, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Blimey. A nice reminder of why I try to avoid these things. Just so long as no-one tries to put the blasted things in my articles. ;) Mark 1 08:37, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Mark, you are right, we should not have a recommendation to use it. Most Wikipedians don't use it. It is dying out everywhere (but is still common in the US and the OUP and Fowler's cling on to it). It would be far better to steal the advice in the EU's style guide, which I think is quite good. It says "Insert an additional comma before the final "and" (or "or") if needed for clarification: sugar, beef and veal, and milk products." Succinct, to the point, good advice and what most Wikipedians do anyway! :) jguk 18:26, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've raised this issue at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name), but nothing was really settled there, and really that's subsidiary to the more general question of usage. In any event: what to do with the capitalisation of proper names of organisations that begin with "the", and which assert that the "the" is part of the proper name per se and 'ought' to be capitalised? The naming convention cites both "official title" and "most common name" (without being entirely clear which to apply when). Examples would include: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Duke of Wellington's Regiment, both of which seem to be pretty precious about their Article. In the former case there's an additional Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mormonism) document, but that doesn't seem to exactly have a great deal of standing in (to take a not very hypothetical example) page move request discussions.
It strikes me that if the naming conventions are going to appeal to matters such as 'common usage', the MoS is, as a matter of practical necessity, going to have to take a position on what such usage should be, at least in general terms. To what degree is it legitimate to take the preference and practice of the referent into account? To what degree should there be a standardised rule? (For example, The Columbia Guide to Standard American English would be nice and simple -- and widely at variance from current practice.) And how do we measure 'common' usage? How do we weight the usage preferences of 'insiders' and 'outsiders'? Alai 06:58, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Would it help resolve disagreements concerning national differences if there were multiple style guides? Maurreen 06:35, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Do you have any comments on the EU issue above? Maurreen 07:49, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
jguk 08:01, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've been following the discussion on this talk page with great interest and I think the following proposal could be helpful.
It seems to me that the most hotly debated and probably most important topic in the Manual of Style is the part about national English varieties and their "scope".
I suppose everyone agrees on the following two points:
Keeping these two points in mind, I would like to propose the introduction of "style tags" for articles in order to prevent edit wars and preserve linguistic variety. The following proposal needs to be policy, otherwise it won't work.
I define a "style tag" as follows: It should be clearly visible in the source code of each article (maybe in each section for convenience), invisible to the reader of the article, which essentially means that a comment should be used:
<!-- STYLE: U.S. English, (optional: other style information), DATE/TIME (when tag was set)-->
I will now explain the benefits I see in using such tags:
For "neutral" articles (I'll use this term for "Articles that do NOT focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country", for example honey), there seems to be consensus that the first major (although it is difficult to define what major means) contributor determines the style of the article.
The first major contributor can add a style tag, in which she/he describes the style she/he will use for the article.
Doing this has the following advantages:
At first, I thought about the tags as a way for the first contributor (in case of "neutral" articles) to state his style intentions and to preserve them. Especially spellings other than U.S. and U.K. which face "assimilation" by the two main varieties.
However, I think every Wikipedia article should have a style tag. Here is becomes tricky.
First of all, every native speaker of English will agree that articles should be consistent. This leads to the conclusion that for each article there needs to be a fixed style at one point in time to ensure consistency.
Now, as I explained above, for new articles it would be easiest if the first major contributor sets the style (in "neutral" articles). This is convenient for future editors, ensures consistency and preserves the original intended style.
For already existing articles, it is more difficult to set the tag. For some articles that are already consistent/country-specific, it will be easy to set a style tag. For others that are not, it will be very difficult. A decision should be reached in consensus on the talk page. The first major editor and the topic should both be carefully considered.
The idea of using tags to set the style of an article should be described in the Manual of Style and other pages that cover the editing of articles. Editors that start new articles should be encouraged to set a style tag.
Style tags can be set in two ways:
A style tag should not be changed after it is set. Once set, it determines the article's style.
An arbitrary change should be reverted immediately.
Summary:
Oops, sorry for such a long text. I hope it makes some sense, please comment on it.
Flo 23:13, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The tag could also explain a style specific to the article. For example, in the "Theater" article, after a long discussion, "theater" was used for the "building", "theatre" for the art. Or consider a British editor who likes spellings like recognize. He could set a tag like:
<!-- STYLE: UK English with -ize and -yse, DATE/TIME (when tag was set)-->
If he doesn't set a tag, there might be a argument if it's U.S. or U.K. English, because many people regard -ize as an Americanism. Flo 08:50, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If articles are factually accurate, NPOV, comprehensive and literate in at least one dialect of English, does any of this really matter? Filiocht 08:47, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
As someone whose English is neither fish nor fowl and not naturally associated with any style, I'd certainly appreciate some quick hint like this, where it's applicable. Following a suggested preference is easier without trying to recogniße it first. Femto 13:23, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, I take issue with your wording about introducing the first-major-contributor rule (which I've just realized I've been misspelling - yikes). It has already been introduced, and is not new, and I believe it's what most editors practise, the MoS notwithstanding. I know that when I joined Wikipedia, several editors explained to me that this was the rule, and it was, and remains, how I edit. The first I heard of the "topic specific to" rule was about four weeks ago. What I would like to see is either (a) the first-major-contributOr rule extended across the board, or (b) the "topic specific to" rule defined and tightened, because as it stands it fails to denote.
I agree that it's not always clear who the first major contributor was, but it often is. In cases where it's not clear, the "topic specific to" rule could kick in. Ditto if what the first major contributor has written is unclear (e.g. in your example of there being only one word signalling the style, though in reality, punctuation would likely signal it too). I agree with you regarding your point five. Regarding your point six, the "topic specific to" rule encourages ownership by a country, which is even worse than ownership by a group of editors. If you don't like first-major-contributor, then by all means tighten "topic specific to." My main concern is that there should be a fairly narrow definition so as to avoid the notion that certain subjects or people "belong" to certain countries i.e. I would like to avoid any hint of imperialism. SlimVirgin 08:29, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't had a response to my query of a couple of weeks ago about "people are not topics", by which I mean I'd like to add a rider to the "topics specific to a country" section that people don't count as topics unless they are office holders, in which case it's the office that is the topic, not the person. I think that's a definite weakness in the current MoS, and although the term "specific to" hasn't been defined (and needs to be), I feel it ought at least to be tightened so as to exclude the notion of ownership of persons by certain countries. SlimVirgin 04:24, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
I remember reading that links in article's bolded titles should be avoided. ? Hyacinth 02:04, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't this better belong in the Introduction section, since you can't put (functional) pipe-links in the actual article's title except as written in the introduction? Hyacinth 04:57, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't know whether there was a consensus on the EU issue, which Philip reinserted. I feel we should allow individual editors to decide how to write about the EU, though clearly they should spell proper nouns the way the EU spells them if writing about or quoting an EU document. I wish I could understand this instinct for making editors do what other editors want. I admit it's sometimes necessary, but shouldn't we keep it to a minimum? What Filiocht wrote above is absolutely right: what matters is that editors produce accurate, well-written articles. SlimVirgin 07:06, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
It was to include these (that is, both or neither):
The latter might clash with the "topic specific to" rule. Jamaica, for example, would have to be written about in Jamaican English, which I guess would boil down to BE. I would very much prefer to have neither of these rules. SlimVirgin 07:31, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
Flo, UK English for UK, Ireland, and Malta: I have no problem with that. My concern is twofold: (a) that shouldn't be extended to other countries in the EU; and (b) the "topic specific to" issue remains undefined. I feel that some of the editors who want to retain that phrase ought now to define it, because this debate has been going on for weeks/months, and won't end until we have a definition; that is: what exactly is meant by a "topic specific to" a country? SlimVirgin 19:53, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
Let's discuss it and get over with that point (see below). Flo 05:41, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Further to the discussions above, I make the proposal below. It emphasises that the important thing is to encourage good faith editors to contribute to articles - whilst at the same time giving clear rules for copyediting Wikipedians. It changes the MOS so that going forward it would allow people to use a standard form of English throughout an article as it would get rid of the unnecessary exceptions. It also has the benefit of significantly reducing the number of instructions in the MOS. (By the way, I know SV does not like (ii) - but this is effectively a restatement of what is already in the MOS, not something that's new. Yes, this proposal includes (ii), but it is not about (ii)!) The proposal is as follows:
1. Add the following instructions:
The important thing about your contribution is that you make it, not the style that you adopt to make it. Whilst it helps if your edits are in accordance with Wikipedia style, don't worry if they're not. Copyediting Wikipedians can always tidy up style issues later on. On the issue of English usage, Wikipedia style is as follows:
(i) An article should be written in one form of standard English, which should be used consistently throughout that article;
(ii) Where an article is on a topic closely-related to one part of the English-speaking world, that article should be written in a form of standard English used in that part of the English-speaking world;
(iii) If a word/phrase that is used in one form of standard English is not generally understood by speakers of another form, it should either be avoided or explained;
(iv) The form of standard English adopted by an article should not be changed without good reason.
2. Remove all instructions in the MOS that are inconsistent with the above. In particular, note that the proposal deliberate refers to forms of standard English. It is wider than just spelling, but encompasses grammar, punctuation, etc..
3. Add some off-MOS guidance on how the instructions would be followed in practice (and in some cases remove the guidance in the MOS and replace it on an off-MOS guidance page_. I think it would be important to elaborate on "good reason". "Good reasons" would include, for example, a new major editor integrating their new text with the old text; or a copy-editor coming to an article with a messy mish-mash of styles copyediting the article consistent with a style the copy-editor is familiar with (subject to (i) to (iii)).
jguk 19:15, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin would like to have a discussion about what "topic specific to an English-speaking country" means. I think such a rule is needed, because the alternative: "first-major-contributor" across the board would probably not work. Many editors seem to feel strongly about national varieties, it's a cultural identity thing.
How about discussing the "scope" of this rule first and then trying to find a clear wording? Otherwise, as SlimVirgin has said, the discussion will go on and on.
And far I am concerned, I think the scope should be a follows:
Now, what about non-officeholders? The wording might sound strange, but it reflects my opinion: People, who were born in and lived in one English-speaking country during the time when they did what they are famous for.
Please state your opinion on the scope of the "specific-to" rule and suggest a clear wording that explains "specific-to". Flo 05:37, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Flo, first point: I don't agree that many editors feel strongly about national varieties. I think that's conjecture. Second point: I can live with most of the above. My suggested changes: (a) I would like to exclude people entirely, unless they are office holders; and (b) Include works by people only if the work is closely related to the country. Regarding people, imagine an article about Chaucer (I haven't checked whether there is one), and a rule saying that had to be in modern British English. It would be nonsensical because Chaucer's English bore little similarity to any form of English used now anywhere. It's instruction creep of the worst kind because there's no reason for it. Bear in mind that most articles about people who are closely tied to one placed are likely to be written by editors from that place anyway, so the effect will likely be what jguk wants. All I ask is that we don't make it a rule, and that if exceptions occur, we live with them. SlimVirgin 07:58, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph from Filiocht is copied here from above. Maurreen 06:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As I indicate below, I think this is an inordinate level of debate on a relatively trivial issue. Will insisting on a given dialect in a given article improve the factual accuracy or NPOV of that article? No. Will insisting on a rule tend to make some potential editors feel excluded? Yes. So where's the benifit to Wikipedia? I cannot see it. I write on Irish, British and American subjects in my own dialect of written English and no rules, tags, etc will make me equally literate in another dialect. If enforced (which I feel is unlikely) They'll either cause me to stop working on articles like, say The Cantos or I'll just ignore them. Filiocht 09:46, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
I agree at least with the spirit of Filiocht. We've had a lot of discussion, and I doubt how much it has accomplished. I'd like to suggest that we give the issue of national varieties of English and all related proposals for changing the style guide a rest of at least a month. (Although there is one that I think should rest for longer, but I'd rather not get into that now.) Maurreen 06:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I disagree with most of the proposals. I suggested the EU and OAS deal as a compromise. I think the style guide already has a good compromise and consensus. And I think that edit wars can be avoided by people acting like grownups, not by changing the style guide. Maurreen 09:28, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. It's just a question of finding the right wording. SlimVirgin 10:38, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Thank you. I will agree to the EU institutions and documents edit, though I think Maurreen would like it to be tied to the OAS being given the same status, but I'm easy on that issue myself. SlimVirgin 10:38, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
No one is suggesting that anyone should be stopped from writing an article on anything in any dialect of English they wish to. The debate is whether for the rest of time that article has to remain in that dialect or can it be changed to another without starting an edit war. The "facts on the ground", to use a phrase from International relations, is that the article will be co-edited to conform to a national dialect if the article is related to a specific English speaking nation. To reduce copy edit reversal wars, the "Manual of Style" (MoS) gives some guidance on this. Until SlimVirgin came along and at first argued against the "National varieties of English" (NVoE) and for the supremacy of "primary author", most people who "watch" the MoS page seemed to recognise the facts on the ground that "National varieties of English" has precedence, and broadly agreed that the MoS should give guidance in this area to reduce edit wars. It appears to me that now that she recognises that most people (who watch the page) do not agree that the primary author rule is paramount, she is suggesting that the rules for NVoE are defined more clearly than they are. I think that they can not be too specific and can only be used as a general guidance. For those topics where it is not clear if a specific national style applies, then the policy will have to be worked out on the talk pages of those topics. For no matter how precisely the rules are drawn up, there will always be cases on the margin that will have to be decided on their specific merits.
At the moment SlimVirgin is focusing on biographies. The trouble with this area is that although domicilety is often obvious, where it is not, it is a nightmare (ask any tax inspector). This means that the large majority of all biographies the style which in the long term will be adopted under the "National varieties of English" is not an issue. For the 10% where it is a problem (Eg Thomas Paine) it will have to be resolved on the talk pages of the biography and it will probably be resolved by the first major contributor rule.
Geoffrey Chaucer is one example which has been dragged into this argument and I would say that this is a borderline case (although many will argue for NVoE) that it has to be decided on the talk page of Chaucer, because if I use another example of Emily Bronte, then in the long run it will almost certainly remain under NVoE (even if the primary author wrote it in AE) as a "fact on the ground" whether "National varieties of English" is specified in the MoS or not. Philip Baird Shearer 10:42, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As no one has yet come up with an authoritative source arguing that there is no pooled sovereignty in the EU. I am going to reinstate the line.
-- Philip Baird Shearer 11:30, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can I just say "tempest in a teacup"? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:12, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
afterthoughts? -- H.B.T.
I've seen a few different conventions used:
'''Igor Fyodorovitch Stravinsky''' ([[Russian language|Russian]]: '''{{lang|ru|<!-- name in russian -->}}''')
'''Igor Fyodorovitch Stravinsky''' ([[Russian language|Russian]] <font lang="ru"><!-- name in russian --></font>)
'''Igor Fyodorovitch Stravinsky''' (<!-- name in russian -->)
Note there are three items being varied:
I feel that this should be standardized for the same reason dates of birth and death are standardized: it is a common element across many Wikipedia pages.
My preference is shown in example no. 1 above:
– flamurai ( t) 01:15, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
I like to make the name a link to article on another language wikipedia if it exists eg: '''Battle of Hurtgen Forest''' ([[German language|German]]: ''[[:de:Allerseelenschlacht|Schlacht im Hürtgenwald]]'')
-- Philip Baird Shearer 03:13, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't i.e. in English stand for "that is" not "such as"? – AxSkov 13:32, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Where on Earth did people writing the style manual come up with the idea that all articles should use British-standards of punctuation, even on explicitly U.S. topics? I refer here to the sections on quotation marks and serial commas. We follow the spellings of the country of the topic, but not the punctuation? That makes no sense at all. I would strongly encourage that we standardize on the rules used by the appropriate country for topics about that country, both for fairness reasons and for not teaching our readers bad habits. OH,and not to mention that following these rules would mean every US-article would always have major errors for anyone reading it: US readers would see screwed up punctuation and International English readers would see nonstandard spelling. A style decision that guarantees an article is going to be wrong for everyone who reads it is just plain useless. DreamGuy 22:50, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
Re "British-style punctuation". Up until 28 December of last year, the MoS described its guideline as "splitting the difference" between UK and US usages: punctuation inside or outside according to sense (per British rules), but preferring "double" quotation marks to 'single' ones (per American practice). Sounds like the original framers were trying to strike a compromise between the two, and it's a shame that language was lost from the Manual. –Hajor 04:15, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The manual recommends US style headers Start the first word and any proper nouns in headings with a capital letter, but leave the rest of the heading lower case. Personally I have no problem with this because it is within the range of what is acceptable in Commonwealth/International English and although it is not a universal rule in C/I. E., it helps to give Wikipedia a more standard look. I would hope that A.E. practitioners can accept that the looser C/I English punctuation if they come across it in an article. Spelling is another matter because spelling color and colour does not really lend its self to a literate compromise. Angels dancing on a pinheads come to mind over this discussion. Philip Baird Shearer 13:35, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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Maybe this is a subject like race is in the United States: difficult to have an amicable and productive discussion about.
Sometimes there appears to be at least a distaste for American English (or the United States) in and of itself. In my opinion, this is at best inappropriate.
I have asked at least once (although it was some time ago) for input on improving international relation in general or the about language issue in particular. I got no takers. Maurreen 12:19, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Jguk and Zoney, you just keep asserting that having an article on Tony Blair in AE is bad and would piss people off, but you don't say why; and that having your rule (ii above) will prevent edit wars better than the first-major-contributer rule, but again don't say why. It would be nice to see an argument. The advantage of first-major-contributer is that there is no room for dispute. Whereas with the notion of "closely-related topics," there's a great deal of room for dispute about what that means, so you can't hail it as superior with regard to settling disagreements. Also, you state that many Wikipedians think this or that, but with no evidence. Please: no more appeals to majoritarianism especially without evidence. SlimVirgin 00:21, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, Zoney. I'm not being intentionally obtuse here, but I genuinely didn't understand some of what you said. For example, "[H]aving more than one form of English is (in absolute terms) inconsistent." Can you put this differently? And again, you say topics pertaining to particular country are all written in the same form of English and it is jarring to read about native topics in a non-native form of English, but these are assertions about your views, not arguments. I don't find it at all jarring, and we can't do a poll of all Wikipedians; even if we could, that still wouldn't constitute an argument. By the way, I'm not arguing in favor of, as you put it, "random English varieties" in one article. I agree that articles should be internally consistent in terms of style. But I'm saying that I haven't yet seen an argument in favor of imposing the closely-related-topic rule on Wikipedia, as opposed to the first-major-contributer rule.
I also didn't understand about the "proposal that non-national series of articles be written in one form of English."
I think it's important to develop arguments for proposals like this, rather than simply asserting "it's jarring" or "we don't like it". For example, what are the benefits/drawbacks of the "closely-related-topic" proposal? What are the benefits/drawbacks of the first-major-contributer rule? Which rule can better cope with editing disputes? Also, please bear in mind that, even with the first-major-contributer rule, the chances of Tony Blair ending up in American English are close to zero, because British PMs will tend to be written about first by British editors. And even if that is not the case, editors may concede their positions without there being a rule forcing them to, as I did with Bernard Williams, for example. SlimVirgin 01:46, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to tease out any arguments for that reason, because we can't write a style guide that's based on anti-Americanism, or any other prejudice. For example, I wince every time I see "organisation" but that's not an argument, and is therefore irrelevant. I'm hopeful we can try to put aside all prejudices and look at the issue in terms of cost/benefit, bearing in mind that we're here to act in Wikipedia's interests and not to promote or attack any particular country. SlimVirgin 02:16, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
For whatever it is worth, I also agree that it is appropriate that articles on an English-speaking country should follow the spelling standards of that country, and that while all articles should strive for international comprehensibility, local usage should generally be followed: for example, someone has a "flat" in London, but an "apartment" in New York. The former is in a "block of flats", the latter in an "apartment building". -- Jmabel | Talk 07:09, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
I'm not in agreement with it. I would like to see first-major-contributer apply across the board, simply because it's easier, more consistent, and there's no ambiguity in the case of edit disputes. SlimVirgin 09:58, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Maurreen,
Alas, we are not all in agreement about this. My view is that "spelling" is too narrow, as it excludes punctuation, grammar, phraseology, etc. , which is why I prefer to refer to a "form of standard English". SlimVirgin, however, appears to disagree with the premise that an article on a topic closely related to a particular English-speaking country should be in a form of English (or indeed have spelling) used in that country.
On your second point here, we are having the discussion here in the hope that it will aid/prevent disputes such as the comma dispute on History of Russia. It's best to deal with most of the disputes here - deal with them once and for all - and then direct future disputes to this page. Kind regards, jguk 09:47, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I wonder how that rule could reduce edit wars, as it's so vague. "Closely related" is not defined; nor is "specific to", so if anyone were to dig their heels in, the edit war could not be decided with reference to the MoS, making the rule somewhat pointless, whereas first-major-contributer is clear. How would you deal with articles related to Israel? SlimVirgin 10:24, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
But English is used in Israel, and you want the rule to be that the style of English used in the country should be used in articles "closely related" to the country. I disagree that it's usually clear whether an article is "closely related" to one country over another, but I repeat my argument: the first-major-contributer rule makes it not "usually clear" but pretty well always clear. So why do you prefer usually to always? I still haven't seen an argument. SlimVirgin 10:52, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Why is there a "US v non-US English dispute" in Wikipedia in general or on this page in particular? Why is real or perceived Americo/U.S.-centric bias sometimes countered by subtraction instead of by additon? Why do some Wikipedians act prejudiced against Americans? Why are some people offended by American English or Americans or other things of U.S. origin, but not offended by others of U.S. origin (such as much technology, including Wikipedia)? Maurreen 19:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There are disputes between all forms of English. For example see Battle of Spion Kop over the spelling of Spioenkop. But the writers of U.S. English tend to get mixed up in more of them for several reasons including:
Regardless of what the style guide says, edit wars will be reduced by communication and cooperation. Regardless of what it says, it will not be perfect and it will not be followed 100 percent of the time. Regardless of what it says, for an article to be subject to an edit war over an issue covered by the style guide is inappropriate at best. Maurreen 19:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I often see editors changing the way quotations are indented. Many prefer to write blockquote; others prefer using a colon. I've been told the latter is "bad HTML." Does anyone know what the different schools of thought are on this? SlimVirgin 00:21, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Joe and flamurai. So if blockquote is correct (or more correct), does anyone know why some editors insist on changing it back to colon, and why the MoS now says colon, because I'm sure I read on a talk page discussion some time ago that other editors had agreed to use blockquote; though I didn't fully understand the discussion so may be misremembering it. SlimVirgin 07:22, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
I realized I didn't answer Mel's question. I have the same position. That is, I don't care how people do it, but I prefer the style guide not call for HTML. Maurreen 07:13, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It probably shouldn't call for colons though either, in my view, given that blockquote seems to be more correct. Perhaps both should be mentioned in the article by someone who understands the debate i.e. not me. SlimVirgin 07:17, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
i. Users should start articles in the form of English most familiar to them.
ii. When editing existing articles, users should try to stick to the form of English already used, unless the subject of the article makes another form of English appropriate. (examples could be given here)
iii. If users are unable to follow the existing form of English, they should make their edits anyway, and leave a note on the Talk page asking for a translation.
iv. If an article is found to contain different forms of English, it should be made consistent either with the subject of the article or with the first editor's usage.
v. Remember that many people will make honest mistakes, and that there's often room for genuine disagreement, so keep cool — accuracy and clarity are the most important qualities of an article.
I like Mel's suggestion, though (ii) and (iv) need to be nailed down, because they go to the heart of the dispute. Mel, when you use the word "appropriate" in (ii), how were you thinking it should be defined? SlimVirgin 00:29, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think it's that Mel perceives a deficiency; as I understand it, he's put forward a suggestion that might be a compromise between two opposing positions. My position is that I disagree with what's currently in the MoS, and would like to see the first-major-contributer rule apply in every case: no exceptions. Jguk, as I understand him, believes the closely-related-topic rule should be extended even further, and wants it to cover the EU and also be extended beyond spelling. Perhaps Zoney favors that too, though I'm not certain. As neither side agrees with what's currently in the MoS, it would be a good idea to come up with a guideline that's clear enough to be capable of settling edit disputes, and that most contributers to this page can agree on. SlimVirgin 01:08, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
The current section isn't clear. It says: "Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the spelling of that country." "Topic specific to" is not defined. And it then goes on to give examples, but says "spelling and usage", not just spelling, with "usage" not defined. I don't see this wording as clear enough to sort out an editing dispute. But if you think it's clear as it is, I have no problem leaving it, so long as it doesn't get extended in any way. SlimVirgin 06:39, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)
I suppose lots of people wouldn't like having the "first-major-contributer rule" across the board. And some people would oppose the extension of the "closely-related-topic" rule, like SlimVirgin, which I can also understand. The way it is seems to be the consensus of the majority. Therefore the current version should kept. Flo 06:47, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hi Flo, it's the vagueness that worries me. For example, I find people outside the UK often don't know what a "flat" is, whereas everyone understands "apartment." I wouldn't want to see us use language that won't be understood by many readers in the interests of deferring to local usage. Interesting about using "ss". I always use "ss", in part because I use a Mac and unusual characters are sometimes rendered differently, but also because I learned in Germany that "ss" was regarded as correct, or just as correct. But here on Wikipedia, several editors feels they have to change it to ß. SlimVirgin 08:45, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
I've lived in North America and in the UK and have never heard Americans use the word "flat," though I've heard Brits use apartment, but not to mean an apartment on two floors specifically. I remember the horrible word "maisonette" being used for that, though perhaps that was just real-estate-agent-speak. I also remember that the BBC would say "block of flats" in their national news, and "apartment block" in their world news. Above all, I agree with Susvolans that nationalism should take a back seat to clarity (and to everything else, in my view). SlimVirgin 14:03, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
The reason I object to the idea that people have to be written about in the language of the country they were born or lived in, is that it has nationalist and almost racist connotations. I am not the property of any country, nation, or language. If someone wanted to write about me, I hope they would do so in whichever style they felt comfortable, and I hope no other editor would be so presumptious as to come along after the fact and alter the style of that article based on my place of birth, or place of residence, or place of work, or perhaps by counting the years I've spent here or there, to determine whether qua subject matter, I belong to American or British English. I find that notion deeply unintelligent. Writing an article is a creative act, and the writer has to be in charge, not the place of birth of the subject.
Publications are usually written in the style of English used in the mother country of the publication, though international publishers may have the resources to vary their publications from country to country. The English Wikipedia has decided not to follow the style of its mother country (America); and can't, or has chosen not to, differ from one English-speaking country to the next. Therefore, as editors, we can choose either to put the writer in control of the subject matter, or the subject matter in control of the writer. I submit that we should put the writer in control, and for practical purposes, to avoid inconsistency within articles, the first-major-contributer rule is the only one that makes sense. SlimVirgin 15:27, Feb 24, 2005 (UTC)
(I normally try to steer clear of style manual trivia, but) why does the manual include a recommendation that the serial comma be used? As our serial comma article points out, it a) is optional, b) can create as well as resolve ambiguity, and c) is largely (albeit not exclusively) used in American but not British English. All these are reasons why we shouldn't take a position. Mark 1 07:11, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Blimey. A nice reminder of why I try to avoid these things. Just so long as no-one tries to put the blasted things in my articles. ;) Mark 1 08:37, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Mark, you are right, we should not have a recommendation to use it. Most Wikipedians don't use it. It is dying out everywhere (but is still common in the US and the OUP and Fowler's cling on to it). It would be far better to steal the advice in the EU's style guide, which I think is quite good. It says "Insert an additional comma before the final "and" (or "or") if needed for clarification: sugar, beef and veal, and milk products." Succinct, to the point, good advice and what most Wikipedians do anyway! :) jguk 18:26, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've raised this issue at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name), but nothing was really settled there, and really that's subsidiary to the more general question of usage. In any event: what to do with the capitalisation of proper names of organisations that begin with "the", and which assert that the "the" is part of the proper name per se and 'ought' to be capitalised? The naming convention cites both "official title" and "most common name" (without being entirely clear which to apply when). Examples would include: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and The Duke of Wellington's Regiment, both of which seem to be pretty precious about their Article. In the former case there's an additional Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mormonism) document, but that doesn't seem to exactly have a great deal of standing in (to take a not very hypothetical example) page move request discussions.
It strikes me that if the naming conventions are going to appeal to matters such as 'common usage', the MoS is, as a matter of practical necessity, going to have to take a position on what such usage should be, at least in general terms. To what degree is it legitimate to take the preference and practice of the referent into account? To what degree should there be a standardised rule? (For example, The Columbia Guide to Standard American English would be nice and simple -- and widely at variance from current practice.) And how do we measure 'common' usage? How do we weight the usage preferences of 'insiders' and 'outsiders'? Alai 06:58, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Would it help resolve disagreements concerning national differences if there were multiple style guides? Maurreen 06:35, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Do you have any comments on the EU issue above? Maurreen 07:49, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
jguk 08:01, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've been following the discussion on this talk page with great interest and I think the following proposal could be helpful.
It seems to me that the most hotly debated and probably most important topic in the Manual of Style is the part about national English varieties and their "scope".
I suppose everyone agrees on the following two points:
Keeping these two points in mind, I would like to propose the introduction of "style tags" for articles in order to prevent edit wars and preserve linguistic variety. The following proposal needs to be policy, otherwise it won't work.
I define a "style tag" as follows: It should be clearly visible in the source code of each article (maybe in each section for convenience), invisible to the reader of the article, which essentially means that a comment should be used:
<!-- STYLE: U.S. English, (optional: other style information), DATE/TIME (when tag was set)-->
I will now explain the benefits I see in using such tags:
For "neutral" articles (I'll use this term for "Articles that do NOT focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country", for example honey), there seems to be consensus that the first major (although it is difficult to define what major means) contributor determines the style of the article.
The first major contributor can add a style tag, in which she/he describes the style she/he will use for the article.
Doing this has the following advantages:
At first, I thought about the tags as a way for the first contributor (in case of "neutral" articles) to state his style intentions and to preserve them. Especially spellings other than U.S. and U.K. which face "assimilation" by the two main varieties.
However, I think every Wikipedia article should have a style tag. Here is becomes tricky.
First of all, every native speaker of English will agree that articles should be consistent. This leads to the conclusion that for each article there needs to be a fixed style at one point in time to ensure consistency.
Now, as I explained above, for new articles it would be easiest if the first major contributor sets the style (in "neutral" articles). This is convenient for future editors, ensures consistency and preserves the original intended style.
For already existing articles, it is more difficult to set the tag. For some articles that are already consistent/country-specific, it will be easy to set a style tag. For others that are not, it will be very difficult. A decision should be reached in consensus on the talk page. The first major editor and the topic should both be carefully considered.
The idea of using tags to set the style of an article should be described in the Manual of Style and other pages that cover the editing of articles. Editors that start new articles should be encouraged to set a style tag.
Style tags can be set in two ways:
A style tag should not be changed after it is set. Once set, it determines the article's style.
An arbitrary change should be reverted immediately.
Summary:
Oops, sorry for such a long text. I hope it makes some sense, please comment on it.
Flo 23:13, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The tag could also explain a style specific to the article. For example, in the "Theater" article, after a long discussion, "theater" was used for the "building", "theatre" for the art. Or consider a British editor who likes spellings like recognize. He could set a tag like:
<!-- STYLE: UK English with -ize and -yse, DATE/TIME (when tag was set)-->
If he doesn't set a tag, there might be a argument if it's U.S. or U.K. English, because many people regard -ize as an Americanism. Flo 08:50, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If articles are factually accurate, NPOV, comprehensive and literate in at least one dialect of English, does any of this really matter? Filiocht 08:47, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)
As someone whose English is neither fish nor fowl and not naturally associated with any style, I'd certainly appreciate some quick hint like this, where it's applicable. Following a suggested preference is easier without trying to recogniße it first. Femto 13:23, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jguk, I take issue with your wording about introducing the first-major-contributor rule (which I've just realized I've been misspelling - yikes). It has already been introduced, and is not new, and I believe it's what most editors practise, the MoS notwithstanding. I know that when I joined Wikipedia, several editors explained to me that this was the rule, and it was, and remains, how I edit. The first I heard of the "topic specific to" rule was about four weeks ago. What I would like to see is either (a) the first-major-contributOr rule extended across the board, or (b) the "topic specific to" rule defined and tightened, because as it stands it fails to denote.
I agree that it's not always clear who the first major contributor was, but it often is. In cases where it's not clear, the "topic specific to" rule could kick in. Ditto if what the first major contributor has written is unclear (e.g. in your example of there being only one word signalling the style, though in reality, punctuation would likely signal it too). I agree with you regarding your point five. Regarding your point six, the "topic specific to" rule encourages ownership by a country, which is even worse than ownership by a group of editors. If you don't like first-major-contributor, then by all means tighten "topic specific to." My main concern is that there should be a fairly narrow definition so as to avoid the notion that certain subjects or people "belong" to certain countries i.e. I would like to avoid any hint of imperialism. SlimVirgin 08:29, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't had a response to my query of a couple of weeks ago about "people are not topics", by which I mean I'd like to add a rider to the "topics specific to a country" section that people don't count as topics unless they are office holders, in which case it's the office that is the topic, not the person. I think that's a definite weakness in the current MoS, and although the term "specific to" hasn't been defined (and needs to be), I feel it ought at least to be tightened so as to exclude the notion of ownership of persons by certain countries. SlimVirgin 04:24, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
I remember reading that links in article's bolded titles should be avoided. ? Hyacinth 02:04, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't this better belong in the Introduction section, since you can't put (functional) pipe-links in the actual article's title except as written in the introduction? Hyacinth 04:57, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't know whether there was a consensus on the EU issue, which Philip reinserted. I feel we should allow individual editors to decide how to write about the EU, though clearly they should spell proper nouns the way the EU spells them if writing about or quoting an EU document. I wish I could understand this instinct for making editors do what other editors want. I admit it's sometimes necessary, but shouldn't we keep it to a minimum? What Filiocht wrote above is absolutely right: what matters is that editors produce accurate, well-written articles. SlimVirgin 07:06, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
It was to include these (that is, both or neither):
The latter might clash with the "topic specific to" rule. Jamaica, for example, would have to be written about in Jamaican English, which I guess would boil down to BE. I would very much prefer to have neither of these rules. SlimVirgin 07:31, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
Flo, UK English for UK, Ireland, and Malta: I have no problem with that. My concern is twofold: (a) that shouldn't be extended to other countries in the EU; and (b) the "topic specific to" issue remains undefined. I feel that some of the editors who want to retain that phrase ought now to define it, because this debate has been going on for weeks/months, and won't end until we have a definition; that is: what exactly is meant by a "topic specific to" a country? SlimVirgin 19:53, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
Let's discuss it and get over with that point (see below). Flo 05:41, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Further to the discussions above, I make the proposal below. It emphasises that the important thing is to encourage good faith editors to contribute to articles - whilst at the same time giving clear rules for copyediting Wikipedians. It changes the MOS so that going forward it would allow people to use a standard form of English throughout an article as it would get rid of the unnecessary exceptions. It also has the benefit of significantly reducing the number of instructions in the MOS. (By the way, I know SV does not like (ii) - but this is effectively a restatement of what is already in the MOS, not something that's new. Yes, this proposal includes (ii), but it is not about (ii)!) The proposal is as follows:
1. Add the following instructions:
The important thing about your contribution is that you make it, not the style that you adopt to make it. Whilst it helps if your edits are in accordance with Wikipedia style, don't worry if they're not. Copyediting Wikipedians can always tidy up style issues later on. On the issue of English usage, Wikipedia style is as follows:
(i) An article should be written in one form of standard English, which should be used consistently throughout that article;
(ii) Where an article is on a topic closely-related to one part of the English-speaking world, that article should be written in a form of standard English used in that part of the English-speaking world;
(iii) If a word/phrase that is used in one form of standard English is not generally understood by speakers of another form, it should either be avoided or explained;
(iv) The form of standard English adopted by an article should not be changed without good reason.
2. Remove all instructions in the MOS that are inconsistent with the above. In particular, note that the proposal deliberate refers to forms of standard English. It is wider than just spelling, but encompasses grammar, punctuation, etc..
3. Add some off-MOS guidance on how the instructions would be followed in practice (and in some cases remove the guidance in the MOS and replace it on an off-MOS guidance page_. I think it would be important to elaborate on "good reason". "Good reasons" would include, for example, a new major editor integrating their new text with the old text; or a copy-editor coming to an article with a messy mish-mash of styles copyediting the article consistent with a style the copy-editor is familiar with (subject to (i) to (iii)).
jguk 19:15, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin would like to have a discussion about what "topic specific to an English-speaking country" means. I think such a rule is needed, because the alternative: "first-major-contributor" across the board would probably not work. Many editors seem to feel strongly about national varieties, it's a cultural identity thing.
How about discussing the "scope" of this rule first and then trying to find a clear wording? Otherwise, as SlimVirgin has said, the discussion will go on and on.
And far I am concerned, I think the scope should be a follows:
Now, what about non-officeholders? The wording might sound strange, but it reflects my opinion: People, who were born in and lived in one English-speaking country during the time when they did what they are famous for.
Please state your opinion on the scope of the "specific-to" rule and suggest a clear wording that explains "specific-to". Flo 05:37, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Flo, first point: I don't agree that many editors feel strongly about national varieties. I think that's conjecture. Second point: I can live with most of the above. My suggested changes: (a) I would like to exclude people entirely, unless they are office holders; and (b) Include works by people only if the work is closely related to the country. Regarding people, imagine an article about Chaucer (I haven't checked whether there is one), and a rule saying that had to be in modern British English. It would be nonsensical because Chaucer's English bore little similarity to any form of English used now anywhere. It's instruction creep of the worst kind because there's no reason for it. Bear in mind that most articles about people who are closely tied to one placed are likely to be written by editors from that place anyway, so the effect will likely be what jguk wants. All I ask is that we don't make it a rule, and that if exceptions occur, we live with them. SlimVirgin 07:58, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph from Filiocht is copied here from above. Maurreen 06:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As I indicate below, I think this is an inordinate level of debate on a relatively trivial issue. Will insisting on a given dialect in a given article improve the factual accuracy or NPOV of that article? No. Will insisting on a rule tend to make some potential editors feel excluded? Yes. So where's the benifit to Wikipedia? I cannot see it. I write on Irish, British and American subjects in my own dialect of written English and no rules, tags, etc will make me equally literate in another dialect. If enforced (which I feel is unlikely) They'll either cause me to stop working on articles like, say The Cantos or I'll just ignore them. Filiocht 09:46, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
I agree at least with the spirit of Filiocht. We've had a lot of discussion, and I doubt how much it has accomplished. I'd like to suggest that we give the issue of national varieties of English and all related proposals for changing the style guide a rest of at least a month. (Although there is one that I think should rest for longer, but I'd rather not get into that now.) Maurreen 06:59, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For the record, I disagree with most of the proposals. I suggested the EU and OAS deal as a compromise. I think the style guide already has a good compromise and consensus. And I think that edit wars can be avoided by people acting like grownups, not by changing the style guide. Maurreen 09:28, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. It's just a question of finding the right wording. SlimVirgin 10:38, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Thank you. I will agree to the EU institutions and documents edit, though I think Maurreen would like it to be tied to the OAS being given the same status, but I'm easy on that issue myself. SlimVirgin 10:38, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
No one is suggesting that anyone should be stopped from writing an article on anything in any dialect of English they wish to. The debate is whether for the rest of time that article has to remain in that dialect or can it be changed to another without starting an edit war. The "facts on the ground", to use a phrase from International relations, is that the article will be co-edited to conform to a national dialect if the article is related to a specific English speaking nation. To reduce copy edit reversal wars, the "Manual of Style" (MoS) gives some guidance on this. Until SlimVirgin came along and at first argued against the "National varieties of English" (NVoE) and for the supremacy of "primary author", most people who "watch" the MoS page seemed to recognise the facts on the ground that "National varieties of English" has precedence, and broadly agreed that the MoS should give guidance in this area to reduce edit wars. It appears to me that now that she recognises that most people (who watch the page) do not agree that the primary author rule is paramount, she is suggesting that the rules for NVoE are defined more clearly than they are. I think that they can not be too specific and can only be used as a general guidance. For those topics where it is not clear if a specific national style applies, then the policy will have to be worked out on the talk pages of those topics. For no matter how precisely the rules are drawn up, there will always be cases on the margin that will have to be decided on their specific merits.
At the moment SlimVirgin is focusing on biographies. The trouble with this area is that although domicilety is often obvious, where it is not, it is a nightmare (ask any tax inspector). This means that the large majority of all biographies the style which in the long term will be adopted under the "National varieties of English" is not an issue. For the 10% where it is a problem (Eg Thomas Paine) it will have to be resolved on the talk pages of the biography and it will probably be resolved by the first major contributor rule.
Geoffrey Chaucer is one example which has been dragged into this argument and I would say that this is a borderline case (although many will argue for NVoE) that it has to be decided on the talk page of Chaucer, because if I use another example of Emily Bronte, then in the long run it will almost certainly remain under NVoE (even if the primary author wrote it in AE) as a "fact on the ground" whether "National varieties of English" is specified in the MoS or not. Philip Baird Shearer 10:42, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As no one has yet come up with an authoritative source arguing that there is no pooled sovereignty in the EU. I am going to reinstate the line.
-- Philip Baird Shearer 11:30, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can I just say "tempest in a teacup"? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:12, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
afterthoughts? -- H.B.T.
I've seen a few different conventions used:
'''Igor Fyodorovitch Stravinsky''' ([[Russian language|Russian]]: '''{{lang|ru|<!-- name in russian -->}}''')
'''Igor Fyodorovitch Stravinsky''' ([[Russian language|Russian]] <font lang="ru"><!-- name in russian --></font>)
'''Igor Fyodorovitch Stravinsky''' (<!-- name in russian -->)
Note there are three items being varied:
I feel that this should be standardized for the same reason dates of birth and death are standardized: it is a common element across many Wikipedia pages.
My preference is shown in example no. 1 above:
– flamurai ( t) 01:15, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
I like to make the name a link to article on another language wikipedia if it exists eg: '''Battle of Hurtgen Forest''' ([[German language|German]]: ''[[:de:Allerseelenschlacht|Schlacht im Hürtgenwald]]'')
-- Philip Baird Shearer 03:13, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't i.e. in English stand for "that is" not "such as"? – AxSkov 13:32, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Where on Earth did people writing the style manual come up with the idea that all articles should use British-standards of punctuation, even on explicitly U.S. topics? I refer here to the sections on quotation marks and serial commas. We follow the spellings of the country of the topic, but not the punctuation? That makes no sense at all. I would strongly encourage that we standardize on the rules used by the appropriate country for topics about that country, both for fairness reasons and for not teaching our readers bad habits. OH,and not to mention that following these rules would mean every US-article would always have major errors for anyone reading it: US readers would see screwed up punctuation and International English readers would see nonstandard spelling. A style decision that guarantees an article is going to be wrong for everyone who reads it is just plain useless. DreamGuy 22:50, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
Re "British-style punctuation". Up until 28 December of last year, the MoS described its guideline as "splitting the difference" between UK and US usages: punctuation inside or outside according to sense (per British rules), but preferring "double" quotation marks to 'single' ones (per American practice). Sounds like the original framers were trying to strike a compromise between the two, and it's a shame that language was lost from the Manual. –Hajor 04:15, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The manual recommends US style headers Start the first word and any proper nouns in headings with a capital letter, but leave the rest of the heading lower case. Personally I have no problem with this because it is within the range of what is acceptable in Commonwealth/International English and although it is not a universal rule in C/I. E., it helps to give Wikipedia a more standard look. I would hope that A.E. practitioners can accept that the looser C/I English punctuation if they come across it in an article. Spelling is another matter because spelling color and colour does not really lend its self to a literate compromise. Angels dancing on a pinheads come to mind over this discussion. Philip Baird Shearer 13:35, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)