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This is a topic that's been subject to a fair bit of discussion at MOSFILM (for example here), with (paraphrasing) a widespread view that some articles over-rely upon review aggregators, which inexperienced (and even some regular) editors use - often formulaically - as an easy substitute for the harder work of reading, citing, quoting and summarising a balanced mix of individual reviews.
As a consequence MOSFILM has wording that is tighter than we have on TV, including provisions such as "Describing a film with superlatives such as 'critically acclaimed' or 'box-office bomb' is loaded language and an exceptional claim that must be attributed to multiple high-quality sources" and in relation to RT and MC specifically: "the use of prevalent summary styles or templates is not required", and "To avoid giving these sites undue weight in such circumstances, consider whether it is best to place the data lower in the section". Both MOSFILM and MOSTV are clear that the aggregators are citable (subject to some provisos regarding sample size and regarding older and non-English productions) for "data about the ratio of positive to negative reviews" (my bold).
My proposal would be that we adopt similar, fuller, wording here at MOSTV.
A related issue is the use of the phrase "universal acclaim", which is commonly found in articles both as a general descriptor and as a quote from Metacritic, in the latter case often preceded by words in editorial voice such as "indicating". Self-evidently, "universally acclaimed" is a greater superlative than "critically acclaimed", and it is highly unlikely that a film or TV show would be acclaimed by absolutely every review, which would in any case be impossible to establish by citation. That a third party might describe a show as universally acclaimed is, I accept, potentially quotable, but is puff nevertheless. Metacritic presents a particular difficulty, since it uses this phrase for films or shows where the MC score is just 81%. With a score of 81% it is very likely that there are negative reviews (and certainly some that are not positive) and therefore the reality, whatever MC might say, is that such a show has not been universally acclaimed. Placing "indicating" in editorial voice before such a descriptor is simply misleading, since that score doesn't indicate anything of the sort. Some articles are more careful, and use phrases such as "Metacritic suggests..." or "Metacritic claims..." or "according to Metacritic this indicates", all of which are much better in terms of accuracy, but nevertheless remain presentations of a puff descriptor that doesn't add any actual data to the article (being merely an opinion) - which according to our MOS is the purpose for which the aggregators are supposed to be restricted.
My further proposal would be that we either explicitly restrict the use of MC strictly to the data (being the score), and not the supplementary descriptor, or alternatively we advise that where the MC descriptor is used, editors should avoid wording in editorial voice that gives the impression of confirming the MC opinion. Personally I would like to see the phrase "univeral(ly) acclaim(ed)" omitted altogether, or used with great caution and only where the review scores are exceptionally high, ideally 100%. MapReader ( talk) 07:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
Summary & proposals: There are useful comments in this discussion, and perhaps I can try and summarise into a proposal:
A) The suggestion that we add into MOSTV the additional wording from FILM - as quoted in italics in my opening post above - appears uncontroversial?
B) I would propose adding "universal acclaim" into the examples of discouraged "superlatives" within the first of the additions: "universal acclaim" is clearly more superlative than "critically acclaimed", and its inclusion would clarify that the term shouldn't be used in editorial voice without support from multiple citations.
C) My preference would then be for an additional provision, to be added after the existing statement that the aggregators should be used for data about the ratio of positive to negative reviews: "The Metacritic 'indications' should not be used, as these represent a subjective categorization rather than data." (proposal C1) This follows on logically from the stress within both TV and FILM that the aggregators' purpose is to provide data about the balance of reviews. However, recognising that this may be a change greater than some editors might prefer, as an alternative (proposal C2) I would suggest "Where Metacritic indications are quoted, it should be made clear that these are Metacritic's view and not the article's, and the term "universal acclaim" should only be included where supported by an MC score of 100%". MapReader ( talk) 08:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
I will go ahead and make changes A and B. Some discussion of the remaining proposal would be helpful:
indicating universal acclaim" and "
categorized the score as universal acclaim". The latter provides context and continues to show that this is Metacritic's rating system, while the former can cause confusion as to whom is doing the indication. Is that in Wikipedia voice or is that an indication being done by Metacritic? It is a valid point, despite some editors here saying they are not confused by it. -- GoneIn60 ( talk) 13:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
discussion seems to have dried up. That's not a consensus. -- Alex_21 TALK 08:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
indicating "universal acclaim"complies, because "universal acclaim" is in quotes. -- GoneIn60 ( talk) 15:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
I have started discussions about some episode articles that I feel should probably be merged or sent to draft. They are at Talk:The Mandalorian season 3#Episode articles and Talk:List of Star Wars: The Clone Wars episodes#Episode articles if any TV editors here are interested in contributing. - adamstom97 ( talk) 10:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television § Season article notability. Editors are still needed to weigh in on this. This is about season article notability. —
YoungForever
(talk)
13:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Index
|
||||||||||||||
This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
This is a topic that's been subject to a fair bit of discussion at MOSFILM (for example here), with (paraphrasing) a widespread view that some articles over-rely upon review aggregators, which inexperienced (and even some regular) editors use - often formulaically - as an easy substitute for the harder work of reading, citing, quoting and summarising a balanced mix of individual reviews.
As a consequence MOSFILM has wording that is tighter than we have on TV, including provisions such as "Describing a film with superlatives such as 'critically acclaimed' or 'box-office bomb' is loaded language and an exceptional claim that must be attributed to multiple high-quality sources" and in relation to RT and MC specifically: "the use of prevalent summary styles or templates is not required", and "To avoid giving these sites undue weight in such circumstances, consider whether it is best to place the data lower in the section". Both MOSFILM and MOSTV are clear that the aggregators are citable (subject to some provisos regarding sample size and regarding older and non-English productions) for "data about the ratio of positive to negative reviews" (my bold).
My proposal would be that we adopt similar, fuller, wording here at MOSTV.
A related issue is the use of the phrase "universal acclaim", which is commonly found in articles both as a general descriptor and as a quote from Metacritic, in the latter case often preceded by words in editorial voice such as "indicating". Self-evidently, "universally acclaimed" is a greater superlative than "critically acclaimed", and it is highly unlikely that a film or TV show would be acclaimed by absolutely every review, which would in any case be impossible to establish by citation. That a third party might describe a show as universally acclaimed is, I accept, potentially quotable, but is puff nevertheless. Metacritic presents a particular difficulty, since it uses this phrase for films or shows where the MC score is just 81%. With a score of 81% it is very likely that there are negative reviews (and certainly some that are not positive) and therefore the reality, whatever MC might say, is that such a show has not been universally acclaimed. Placing "indicating" in editorial voice before such a descriptor is simply misleading, since that score doesn't indicate anything of the sort. Some articles are more careful, and use phrases such as "Metacritic suggests..." or "Metacritic claims..." or "according to Metacritic this indicates", all of which are much better in terms of accuracy, but nevertheless remain presentations of a puff descriptor that doesn't add any actual data to the article (being merely an opinion) - which according to our MOS is the purpose for which the aggregators are supposed to be restricted.
My further proposal would be that we either explicitly restrict the use of MC strictly to the data (being the score), and not the supplementary descriptor, or alternatively we advise that where the MC descriptor is used, editors should avoid wording in editorial voice that gives the impression of confirming the MC opinion. Personally I would like to see the phrase "univeral(ly) acclaim(ed)" omitted altogether, or used with great caution and only where the review scores are exceptionally high, ideally 100%. MapReader ( talk) 07:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
Summary & proposals: There are useful comments in this discussion, and perhaps I can try and summarise into a proposal:
A) The suggestion that we add into MOSTV the additional wording from FILM - as quoted in italics in my opening post above - appears uncontroversial?
B) I would propose adding "universal acclaim" into the examples of discouraged "superlatives" within the first of the additions: "universal acclaim" is clearly more superlative than "critically acclaimed", and its inclusion would clarify that the term shouldn't be used in editorial voice without support from multiple citations.
C) My preference would then be for an additional provision, to be added after the existing statement that the aggregators should be used for data about the ratio of positive to negative reviews: "The Metacritic 'indications' should not be used, as these represent a subjective categorization rather than data." (proposal C1) This follows on logically from the stress within both TV and FILM that the aggregators' purpose is to provide data about the balance of reviews. However, recognising that this may be a change greater than some editors might prefer, as an alternative (proposal C2) I would suggest "Where Metacritic indications are quoted, it should be made clear that these are Metacritic's view and not the article's, and the term "universal acclaim" should only be included where supported by an MC score of 100%". MapReader ( talk) 08:59, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
I will go ahead and make changes A and B. Some discussion of the remaining proposal would be helpful:
indicating universal acclaim" and "
categorized the score as universal acclaim". The latter provides context and continues to show that this is Metacritic's rating system, while the former can cause confusion as to whom is doing the indication. Is that in Wikipedia voice or is that an indication being done by Metacritic? It is a valid point, despite some editors here saying they are not confused by it. -- GoneIn60 ( talk) 13:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
discussion seems to have dried up. That's not a consensus. -- Alex_21 TALK 08:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
indicating "universal acclaim"complies, because "universal acclaim" is in quotes. -- GoneIn60 ( talk) 15:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
I have started discussions about some episode articles that I feel should probably be merged or sent to draft. They are at Talk:The Mandalorian season 3#Episode articles and Talk:List of Star Wars: The Clone Wars episodes#Episode articles if any TV editors here are interested in contributing. - adamstom97 ( talk) 10:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television § Season article notability. Editors are still needed to weigh in on this. This is about season article notability. —
YoungForever
(talk)
13:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)