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It's my belief that the current (Aug 2008) LGBT category structure is broken. I'd like to see some consensus building and some modifications made to it, if there's a strong enough interest. If not, I may just be WP:BOLD, but it would be nice to have input from others. If you are interested, please say so here. BTW, if you're interested in the categories we currently have, take a look at WP:LGBT/CAT. Thanks! -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 03:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't really get why we have these categories in the first place. Someone's sexuality or gender identity (not sure why T is lumped together with L, G and B anyway) is in most cases not a defining characteristic of the type we normally use to categorize articles. There might be categories for, for example, writers whose work significantly addresses sexuality and gender issues, but having a category for writers who happen to be L/G/B or T seems like both overcategorization and overemphasis.-- Kotniski ( talk) 16:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I have some thoughts on the "People" categories and I'd like some feedback:
The category of LGBT people by country is useful specifically for the location, for reasons of culture, laws, history, etc. In other words, categorizing "LGBT people from Transylvannia" is useful; while the category "Bisexuals from Transylvannia" is less useful. The only reason to break up the "LGBT people by country" category would be if there were too many articles, and even that is not necessarily a sufficient reason.
Sexuality and occupation often intersect in interesting ways. Gay politicians, for example, have specific hurdles to overcome. The sexuality of lesbian writers often shapes some of their writing. Likewise, bisexual musicians may make reference to their sexuality in their music.
How a person's location and their sexuality intersect is covered in the previous section ("By location"), so if an occupational category needs to be broken into smaller components, it makes sense to break it down by sexuality and gender. For example, the category "LGBT widget makers" should be broken into "Gay widget makers" and not "LGBT widget makers from Transylvannia".
Thoughts? Comments? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 03:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
How can we go about getting more opinions on this whole category structure? Or should I compile a list of "what needs to happen"? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 18:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that the proposal regarding categories of LGBT people by location makes sense from the perspective of WP:CAT/GRS ("dedicated group-subject subcategories ... should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right"). However, there's one thing I couldn't quite figure out: why do the category titles follow the LGBT people from Foo format, as opposed to LGBT Fooians or Fooian LGBT people? "People from" tends to be used in subcategories of Category:People by place rather than Category:People by nationality.
As for the categories of LGBT people by occupation, I think the discussion in the " My take" section covers a lot of the points. While triple-intersections of sexual orientation, nationality, and occupation would constitute OCAT for most occupations (e.g. LGBT businesspeople from Iraq), the triple-intersection could be relevant for jurisdiction-specific occupations (e.g. politicians, rights activists, judges). I'm not a member of this WikiProject, but I was asked to comment here, read the discussion, found it interesting, and wanted to try to contribute. – Black Falcon ( Talk) 05:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
My view is that it really depends on the individual situation. There are cases where the occupation-country subgroup is useful — there is merit, for instance, in having a group for Category:LGBT writers from the United States or Category:LGBT politicians from Canada, but Category:LGBT fashion designers and Category:LGBT radio personalities, conversely, are examples of where there isn't the same value in doing so.
The way I see it, such subgrouping is useful in cases where the national parent serves as a fundamental point of distinction between people (e.g. writers because there are significant cultural differences among different countries' national literatures, politicians because every country's system is very different), but not so useful in cases where the national parent is serving only as a convenience group (i.e. there's not really all that significant a difference between being a fashion designer from Canada and being a fashion designer from Sweden — in such cases, national categories serve less to tell you something important about their context and more to manage an occupational category's size. And if there's no encyclopedic difference between being a fashion designer from one country or the other in the first place, then there's no encyclopedic difference between being a queer fashion designer from one country or the other.)
I don't see a whole lot of value, personally, in insisting on a strict separation in which we can only apply "LGBT people from Country" and "LGBT occupation" as separate categories and never create intersected sets, however, because the intersected sets do serve some useful purposes: size management, cross-referencing to other categories (e.g. the fact that Category:LGBT writers from France is not just a subcategory of its intersected LGBT cats, but also of Category:French writers), and as I noted above there are cases where the intersected set does represent an encyclopedically significant grouping in its own right: LGBT literature from France is a distinct and independently notable subtopic of French literature and a distinct and independently notable subtopic of gay literature.
But again, not all of the possible occupational categories should necessarily exist, and even some that are legitimate shouldn't be subdivided. And I'd also say that an "LGBT X from Country" category should never be subdivided down to even more separate subgroups for Ls, Gs, Bs and Ts the way Category:LGBT actors from the United States, frex, has. That definitely should be reverted — there's just no way in hell that we need it.
My view is that occupation-country subcategories are valid if you could potentially justify a general "LGBT subject in country" overview on WP:CATGRS grounds: "LGBT literature in the United States" would be a valid article and category, so a subcategory for writers is okay, but you'd probably never get away with, say, "LGBT fashion industry in the United States". And it should also be valid in cases where an undifferentiated parent category would exceed the size at which any other category would get subdivided — I don't see a useful reason why we should exclude ourselves from usability concerns.
So here's my take on the occupational set:
Anyway, that's my 12 cents at the moment. Bearcat ( talk) 06:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I think I have pondered this long enough to come up with a better discussion of where I see this going.
For the record, I'll be using "SO/I" to stand for "Sexual orientation/identity", and by that I mean subdividing a category "Foo" into "Lesbian Foo", "Bisexual Foo", "Gay Foo", and "Transgender and transsexual Foo".
I have no problem with categorizing people by "SO/I occuption", as in " Category:Lesbian writers" and " Category:Gay sportspeople".
I don't believe, however, that collectively grouping an occupation makes sense. The Category:LGBT politicians, for example, is forced. Lesbian politicians are going to approach their jobs in a much different way than Gay politicians. My feeling is that the collective cat should simply be a holder for the SO/I cats. Then, if a specific SO/I occupation gets to be too large or there is a significant population by country, that category can be split - for example, Category:Gay actors from the United States.
How does that sit with y'all? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 18:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Clinton Kelly has on his website an "interview" that he gives himself (that is, he asks the questions then answers them himself). He asks if he is gay, answers by saying it's no one's business, etc., acting as if he won't answer, then he says in reference to the question "duh". A number of us feel that is confirmation enough to state that he is openly gay. Some, however, do not, and every so often someone deletes the paragraph/category from the article, and perhaps even the talk page discussion. What do you all think? (Feel free to move this if you think it would be better on the main project talk page.) Aleta Sing 17:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Is Category:LGBT Democrats (United States) an appropriate group-subject subcategory, as defined by Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Special subcategories. I can understand the use of a category for LGBT Republicans and LGBT anarchists (in view of some of the publications listed here), but "LGBT Democrats" does not seem to be a "distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right". Thoughts? – Black Falcon ( Talk) 04:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I think perhaps another issue to consider in this category reorganization is congruence of categories in other language Wikipedias. For instance, in English Category:LGBT actors is currently only a super-category composed of "from Country" categories and "Gay Actors," "Lesbian Actors," "Bisexual Actors," and "Transgender and transsexual actors." However, if you check out the cross-language wiki links, in four other languages there is an analogous category which is directly populated without subcategories. It's a little surprising that there aren't even more such categories. There doesn't seem to be such a category in German Wikipedia - there is sort of a catch-all category, de:Kategorie:Homosexualität in der Kunst (Person), and a similar catch-all in Spanish, es:Categoría:Cultura LGBT and French, fr:Catégorie:Thème de l'homosexualité dans les arts.-- Larrybob ( talk) 22:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
While looking around at the profession categories I also noticed that Category:LGBT-related media does not include Category:LGBT-related_films, which is instead a child of Category:LGBT portrayals in media, which is a child of Category:Sexual orientation and society], which is a child of Category:LGBT. The film category also has siblings Category:LGBT-related plays, Category:LGBT-related television episodes, and Category:LGBT-related television programs. Now, both categories have links to each other; the Portrayals category says Portrayals of LGBT issues or themes in mainstream and non-LGBT media but includes this film category which has plenty of films made by LGBT filmmakers. At the very least, I think that the film category should be added as a subcat of LGBT-related media.-- Larrybob ( talk) 22:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I created the LGBT mayors and LGBT politicians by country categories under the LGBT politicians category. An issue has been raised regarding the two categories' purposes insofar as what the LGBT WikiProject is concerned. So per User:SatyrTN, I offer my efforts on these and related articles and categories to the disposal and consideration of this WikiProject. -- Toussaint ( talk) 18:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Category:LGBT civil rights has been changed to Category:LGBT rights. There was next to no discussion here. Is anyone aware of any recent discussion anywhere else about this change? Rivertorch ( talk) 19:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Currently, categories such as Category:LGBT members of the United States Congress or Category:LGBT state legislators of the United States include all sorts of people who I don't think should be in there. In particular, they include people who came out after having held the office in question. Mark Foley, for example, came out after resigning from Congress in 2006 but has been added to the LGBT state legislators category because he served one term in the Florida House (1990–92) and two years in the Florida Senate (1992–94). Same goes for Barbara Jordan or Robert Bauman, neither of whom was openly LGBT when they served in the Texas and Maryland Senates, respectively.
I therefore propose that the LGBT politicians by office categories be reserved exclusively for people who were openly LGBT for at least part of the time that they held the office in question. I think it would be useful to agree on a guideline that could then be included on the cat pages in question. Any thoughts/suggested changes/objections? — Lincolnite ( talk) 10:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
This talk page is not monitored by many editors. For more prompt attention, please leave a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies. |
LGBT studies Project‑class | |||||||
|
It's my belief that the current (Aug 2008) LGBT category structure is broken. I'd like to see some consensus building and some modifications made to it, if there's a strong enough interest. If not, I may just be WP:BOLD, but it would be nice to have input from others. If you are interested, please say so here. BTW, if you're interested in the categories we currently have, take a look at WP:LGBT/CAT. Thanks! -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 03:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't really get why we have these categories in the first place. Someone's sexuality or gender identity (not sure why T is lumped together with L, G and B anyway) is in most cases not a defining characteristic of the type we normally use to categorize articles. There might be categories for, for example, writers whose work significantly addresses sexuality and gender issues, but having a category for writers who happen to be L/G/B or T seems like both overcategorization and overemphasis.-- Kotniski ( talk) 16:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I have some thoughts on the "People" categories and I'd like some feedback:
The category of LGBT people by country is useful specifically for the location, for reasons of culture, laws, history, etc. In other words, categorizing "LGBT people from Transylvannia" is useful; while the category "Bisexuals from Transylvannia" is less useful. The only reason to break up the "LGBT people by country" category would be if there were too many articles, and even that is not necessarily a sufficient reason.
Sexuality and occupation often intersect in interesting ways. Gay politicians, for example, have specific hurdles to overcome. The sexuality of lesbian writers often shapes some of their writing. Likewise, bisexual musicians may make reference to their sexuality in their music.
How a person's location and their sexuality intersect is covered in the previous section ("By location"), so if an occupational category needs to be broken into smaller components, it makes sense to break it down by sexuality and gender. For example, the category "LGBT widget makers" should be broken into "Gay widget makers" and not "LGBT widget makers from Transylvannia".
Thoughts? Comments? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 03:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
How can we go about getting more opinions on this whole category structure? Or should I compile a list of "what needs to happen"? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 18:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that the proposal regarding categories of LGBT people by location makes sense from the perspective of WP:CAT/GRS ("dedicated group-subject subcategories ... should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right"). However, there's one thing I couldn't quite figure out: why do the category titles follow the LGBT people from Foo format, as opposed to LGBT Fooians or Fooian LGBT people? "People from" tends to be used in subcategories of Category:People by place rather than Category:People by nationality.
As for the categories of LGBT people by occupation, I think the discussion in the " My take" section covers a lot of the points. While triple-intersections of sexual orientation, nationality, and occupation would constitute OCAT for most occupations (e.g. LGBT businesspeople from Iraq), the triple-intersection could be relevant for jurisdiction-specific occupations (e.g. politicians, rights activists, judges). I'm not a member of this WikiProject, but I was asked to comment here, read the discussion, found it interesting, and wanted to try to contribute. – Black Falcon ( Talk) 05:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
My view is that it really depends on the individual situation. There are cases where the occupation-country subgroup is useful — there is merit, for instance, in having a group for Category:LGBT writers from the United States or Category:LGBT politicians from Canada, but Category:LGBT fashion designers and Category:LGBT radio personalities, conversely, are examples of where there isn't the same value in doing so.
The way I see it, such subgrouping is useful in cases where the national parent serves as a fundamental point of distinction between people (e.g. writers because there are significant cultural differences among different countries' national literatures, politicians because every country's system is very different), but not so useful in cases where the national parent is serving only as a convenience group (i.e. there's not really all that significant a difference between being a fashion designer from Canada and being a fashion designer from Sweden — in such cases, national categories serve less to tell you something important about their context and more to manage an occupational category's size. And if there's no encyclopedic difference between being a fashion designer from one country or the other in the first place, then there's no encyclopedic difference between being a queer fashion designer from one country or the other.)
I don't see a whole lot of value, personally, in insisting on a strict separation in which we can only apply "LGBT people from Country" and "LGBT occupation" as separate categories and never create intersected sets, however, because the intersected sets do serve some useful purposes: size management, cross-referencing to other categories (e.g. the fact that Category:LGBT writers from France is not just a subcategory of its intersected LGBT cats, but also of Category:French writers), and as I noted above there are cases where the intersected set does represent an encyclopedically significant grouping in its own right: LGBT literature from France is a distinct and independently notable subtopic of French literature and a distinct and independently notable subtopic of gay literature.
But again, not all of the possible occupational categories should necessarily exist, and even some that are legitimate shouldn't be subdivided. And I'd also say that an "LGBT X from Country" category should never be subdivided down to even more separate subgroups for Ls, Gs, Bs and Ts the way Category:LGBT actors from the United States, frex, has. That definitely should be reverted — there's just no way in hell that we need it.
My view is that occupation-country subcategories are valid if you could potentially justify a general "LGBT subject in country" overview on WP:CATGRS grounds: "LGBT literature in the United States" would be a valid article and category, so a subcategory for writers is okay, but you'd probably never get away with, say, "LGBT fashion industry in the United States". And it should also be valid in cases where an undifferentiated parent category would exceed the size at which any other category would get subdivided — I don't see a useful reason why we should exclude ourselves from usability concerns.
So here's my take on the occupational set:
Anyway, that's my 12 cents at the moment. Bearcat ( talk) 06:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I think I have pondered this long enough to come up with a better discussion of where I see this going.
For the record, I'll be using "SO/I" to stand for "Sexual orientation/identity", and by that I mean subdividing a category "Foo" into "Lesbian Foo", "Bisexual Foo", "Gay Foo", and "Transgender and transsexual Foo".
I have no problem with categorizing people by "SO/I occuption", as in " Category:Lesbian writers" and " Category:Gay sportspeople".
I don't believe, however, that collectively grouping an occupation makes sense. The Category:LGBT politicians, for example, is forced. Lesbian politicians are going to approach their jobs in a much different way than Gay politicians. My feeling is that the collective cat should simply be a holder for the SO/I cats. Then, if a specific SO/I occupation gets to be too large or there is a significant population by country, that category can be split - for example, Category:Gay actors from the United States.
How does that sit with y'all? -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 18:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Clinton Kelly has on his website an "interview" that he gives himself (that is, he asks the questions then answers them himself). He asks if he is gay, answers by saying it's no one's business, etc., acting as if he won't answer, then he says in reference to the question "duh". A number of us feel that is confirmation enough to state that he is openly gay. Some, however, do not, and every so often someone deletes the paragraph/category from the article, and perhaps even the talk page discussion. What do you all think? (Feel free to move this if you think it would be better on the main project talk page.) Aleta Sing 17:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Is Category:LGBT Democrats (United States) an appropriate group-subject subcategory, as defined by Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Special subcategories. I can understand the use of a category for LGBT Republicans and LGBT anarchists (in view of some of the publications listed here), but "LGBT Democrats" does not seem to be a "distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right". Thoughts? – Black Falcon ( Talk) 04:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I think perhaps another issue to consider in this category reorganization is congruence of categories in other language Wikipedias. For instance, in English Category:LGBT actors is currently only a super-category composed of "from Country" categories and "Gay Actors," "Lesbian Actors," "Bisexual Actors," and "Transgender and transsexual actors." However, if you check out the cross-language wiki links, in four other languages there is an analogous category which is directly populated without subcategories. It's a little surprising that there aren't even more such categories. There doesn't seem to be such a category in German Wikipedia - there is sort of a catch-all category, de:Kategorie:Homosexualität in der Kunst (Person), and a similar catch-all in Spanish, es:Categoría:Cultura LGBT and French, fr:Catégorie:Thème de l'homosexualité dans les arts.-- Larrybob ( talk) 22:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
While looking around at the profession categories I also noticed that Category:LGBT-related media does not include Category:LGBT-related_films, which is instead a child of Category:LGBT portrayals in media, which is a child of Category:Sexual orientation and society], which is a child of Category:LGBT. The film category also has siblings Category:LGBT-related plays, Category:LGBT-related television episodes, and Category:LGBT-related television programs. Now, both categories have links to each other; the Portrayals category says Portrayals of LGBT issues or themes in mainstream and non-LGBT media but includes this film category which has plenty of films made by LGBT filmmakers. At the very least, I think that the film category should be added as a subcat of LGBT-related media.-- Larrybob ( talk) 22:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I created the LGBT mayors and LGBT politicians by country categories under the LGBT politicians category. An issue has been raised regarding the two categories' purposes insofar as what the LGBT WikiProject is concerned. So per User:SatyrTN, I offer my efforts on these and related articles and categories to the disposal and consideration of this WikiProject. -- Toussaint ( talk) 18:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Category:LGBT civil rights has been changed to Category:LGBT rights. There was next to no discussion here. Is anyone aware of any recent discussion anywhere else about this change? Rivertorch ( talk) 19:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Currently, categories such as Category:LGBT members of the United States Congress or Category:LGBT state legislators of the United States include all sorts of people who I don't think should be in there. In particular, they include people who came out after having held the office in question. Mark Foley, for example, came out after resigning from Congress in 2006 but has been added to the LGBT state legislators category because he served one term in the Florida House (1990–92) and two years in the Florida Senate (1992–94). Same goes for Barbara Jordan or Robert Bauman, neither of whom was openly LGBT when they served in the Texas and Maryland Senates, respectively.
I therefore propose that the LGBT politicians by office categories be reserved exclusively for people who were openly LGBT for at least part of the time that they held the office in question. I think it would be useful to agree on a guideline that could then be included on the cat pages in question. Any thoughts/suggested changes/objections? — Lincolnite ( talk) 10:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)