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I always see this in biography AFDs, where someone comes up with a reference, WP:RS and all, but it's an interview of the subject. Then someone says, "that's a 'first-party source' and that won't cut it." Is it? Are all interviews not independent sources? Or say, just if the interviewer, or the publisher, is related to the person being interviewed?
It's not really apparent upon reading this, and I suggest something about this written here or elsewhere on interviews being reliable sources. Howard the Duck ( talk) 19:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone, One thing I've sometimes seen on Wikipedia and which illicitly gives the false perception that something is more widely covered that it actually is, is Circular reporting, which that page defines as: "Circular reporting, false confirmation, or citogenesis is a situation in source criticism where a piece of information appears to come from multiple independent sources, but in reality comes from only one source."
I know there is a very particular Wikipedia policy for sources citing Wikipedia (see WP:CIRCULAR) that warns against using Wikipedia articles as sources. What I would like to discuss is including the more general sense of circular reporting, as defined above. In the most extreme case, there can be a Wikipedia article with one source that claims something, and all other sources on the claim citing that one single original source and not providing any new information. However, it can give the false impression that all kinds of different sources are independent source covering (even if only by trivial mention) a claim or topic, and clearly the other sources are not independent of the sole original source. A Wikipedia article was recently deleted in part due to this issue. What do you think about this becoming part of a formal guideline? Saucysalsa30 ( talk) 22:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Unless there is a prominently-displayed and frequently-discussed ruling to the contrary, editors are very likely to use "number of mentions" as one of their criteria for notability. That's where the actual problem is. TooManyFingers ( talk) 07:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
WP:NCORP (specifically the WP:ORGIND section) defines "Independent" under two headings, the second being "Content Independence". I propose to add this definition to this article as its absence appears to be causing some confusion. HighKing ++ 12:18, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree with WhatamIdoing 100%. Quoting facts figures and statistics without any analysis are perfectly acceptable and inserting quotes and data without any interpretation is required according to policy as long as you have references. Also, process you are describing about one source disseminating a story through multiple outlets is a description of the perfectly normal usual processes of how information is disseminated. If a large media conglomerate is so lucky to have TV, radio, internet etc then of course they are going to put their story out across all of their media sources. Finding ways to fault sources just because you don't like the the way the normal dissemination of information works is a huge mistake and only serves the sole purpose of putting limitations on Wikipedians. Huggums537 ( talk) 13:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Think about it this way; if we allow wikipedians, who are not even journalists, to insert quotations and statistics or other data from non-independent primary sources and require that it be done without any interpretation, then why would we not allow and expect the same from independent reliable third party sources? I think this is especially true since we have no business whatsoever trying to govern the editing policies of outside editorials anyway. I think too many wikipedians are too worried about things that are actually of too little concern to them. Huggums537 ( talk) 14:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Consider any somewhat-well-known band. It's absolutely clear that their own estimate of their own notability is inherently flawed. But does this fact mean that I can't treat their own track lists or lyrics pages as reliable sources? My question boils down to this: People naturally have reasons to lie about certain things. (Mostly money and power.) Is it acceptable to trust first-party sources on those things for which they have no reason to lie? TooManyFingers ( talk) 07:35, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
If "second party" is to be thrown out, then "first party" ought to be thrown out too, since both of them are "made up" in this context and "third party" is the only one of the three that is a legitimate term. My logic was if we are using made-up terms anyway then we might as well complete the picture. The fact that "first party" has been used longer on Wikipedia isn't evidence of anything. TooManyFingers ( talk) 17:41, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
In the section /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Independent_sources#Relationship_to_notability, the article states, "The core policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not requires that it be possible to verify a subject with at least one independent source, or else the subject may not have a separate article in Wikipedia."
However, a later section in the article, /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Independent_sources#How_to_meet_the_requirement says, "Sources: At least two third-party sources should cover the subject, to avoid idiosyncratic articles based upon a single perspective."
So is it one source, or two? Also, I either read or closely skimmed all parts of the article referenced in the first quote, and could not find where it claims a requirement that "it be possible to verify a subject with at least one independent source, or else the subject may not have a separate article in Wikipedia."
Thanks for feedback Greg Dahlen ( talk) 20:43, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Independent sources page. |
|
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 365 days |
I always see this in biography AFDs, where someone comes up with a reference, WP:RS and all, but it's an interview of the subject. Then someone says, "that's a 'first-party source' and that won't cut it." Is it? Are all interviews not independent sources? Or say, just if the interviewer, or the publisher, is related to the person being interviewed?
It's not really apparent upon reading this, and I suggest something about this written here or elsewhere on interviews being reliable sources. Howard the Duck ( talk) 19:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone, One thing I've sometimes seen on Wikipedia and which illicitly gives the false perception that something is more widely covered that it actually is, is Circular reporting, which that page defines as: "Circular reporting, false confirmation, or citogenesis is a situation in source criticism where a piece of information appears to come from multiple independent sources, but in reality comes from only one source."
I know there is a very particular Wikipedia policy for sources citing Wikipedia (see WP:CIRCULAR) that warns against using Wikipedia articles as sources. What I would like to discuss is including the more general sense of circular reporting, as defined above. In the most extreme case, there can be a Wikipedia article with one source that claims something, and all other sources on the claim citing that one single original source and not providing any new information. However, it can give the false impression that all kinds of different sources are independent source covering (even if only by trivial mention) a claim or topic, and clearly the other sources are not independent of the sole original source. A Wikipedia article was recently deleted in part due to this issue. What do you think about this becoming part of a formal guideline? Saucysalsa30 ( talk) 22:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Unless there is a prominently-displayed and frequently-discussed ruling to the contrary, editors are very likely to use "number of mentions" as one of their criteria for notability. That's where the actual problem is. TooManyFingers ( talk) 07:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
WP:NCORP (specifically the WP:ORGIND section) defines "Independent" under two headings, the second being "Content Independence". I propose to add this definition to this article as its absence appears to be causing some confusion. HighKing ++ 12:18, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree with WhatamIdoing 100%. Quoting facts figures and statistics without any analysis are perfectly acceptable and inserting quotes and data without any interpretation is required according to policy as long as you have references. Also, process you are describing about one source disseminating a story through multiple outlets is a description of the perfectly normal usual processes of how information is disseminated. If a large media conglomerate is so lucky to have TV, radio, internet etc then of course they are going to put their story out across all of their media sources. Finding ways to fault sources just because you don't like the the way the normal dissemination of information works is a huge mistake and only serves the sole purpose of putting limitations on Wikipedians. Huggums537 ( talk) 13:13, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Think about it this way; if we allow wikipedians, who are not even journalists, to insert quotations and statistics or other data from non-independent primary sources and require that it be done without any interpretation, then why would we not allow and expect the same from independent reliable third party sources? I think this is especially true since we have no business whatsoever trying to govern the editing policies of outside editorials anyway. I think too many wikipedians are too worried about things that are actually of too little concern to them. Huggums537 ( talk) 14:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Consider any somewhat-well-known band. It's absolutely clear that their own estimate of their own notability is inherently flawed. But does this fact mean that I can't treat their own track lists or lyrics pages as reliable sources? My question boils down to this: People naturally have reasons to lie about certain things. (Mostly money and power.) Is it acceptable to trust first-party sources on those things for which they have no reason to lie? TooManyFingers ( talk) 07:35, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
If "second party" is to be thrown out, then "first party" ought to be thrown out too, since both of them are "made up" in this context and "third party" is the only one of the three that is a legitimate term. My logic was if we are using made-up terms anyway then we might as well complete the picture. The fact that "first party" has been used longer on Wikipedia isn't evidence of anything. TooManyFingers ( talk) 17:41, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
In the section /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Independent_sources#Relationship_to_notability, the article states, "The core policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not requires that it be possible to verify a subject with at least one independent source, or else the subject may not have a separate article in Wikipedia."
However, a later section in the article, /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Independent_sources#How_to_meet_the_requirement says, "Sources: At least two third-party sources should cover the subject, to avoid idiosyncratic articles based upon a single perspective."
So is it one source, or two? Also, I either read or closely skimmed all parts of the article referenced in the first quote, and could not find where it claims a requirement that "it be possible to verify a subject with at least one independent source, or else the subject may not have a separate article in Wikipedia."
Thanks for feedback Greg Dahlen ( talk) 20:43, 2 September 2021 (UTC)