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There is some confusion regarding how hoaxes are dealt with. I specifically refer to this AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giovanni DonCara which got speedily deleted under G3 as a hoax, indeed Wikipedia:Vandalism states that hoaxes are vandalism. Yet G1 states that hoaxes are not candidates for speedy deletion and WP:HOAX guidelines state that hoaxes should be dealt with through AfD. These two contradictory terms need to be cleared up. So what is it to be in regard to hoaxes, CSD G3 or AfD? -- tgheretford ( talk) 21:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I cleaned this up, as now-defunct criteria A6 was still on there (it is now part of G10). Shin'ou's TTV ( Futaba| Masago| Kotobuki) 22:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
If anybody has time, I ran a report of redirects that need to be deleted under CSD-R2. (these are from a month-old dump, so they can all be deleted) -- Interiot 22:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Category criterion 1, that of empty categories, should be expanded or clarified in that an empty category does not count as content for the purposes of establishing whether another category is empty, e.g. Category:A contains Category:B and Category:C, however, B and C are both empty. If A contains other articles or categories, it is clearly not empty, but if A contains nothing other than the two empty categories, it should be treated as empty (as a category containing only empty categories is about as useful as an empty category itself - administrativia aside). Any thoughts? Chris cheese whine 06:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I've just put a regular (not speedy) deletion tag at Eric Devendorf, and found this page that says "The result of the debate was DELETE. - Splash 01:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)." The article is still here, and still doesn't seem particularly notable. -- Tenebrae 16:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Template for notifying a user whose article I just tagged for speedy. See Wikipedia_talk:Template_messages/User_talk_namespace#speedy_deletion_user_page_warning_templates?. Where is it? and/or Is there a good reason for not having one? ∴ here… ♠ 01:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Do we need the {{ db-unksource}} and {{ db-unfree}} templates, which basically say "delete this now", when we have {{ no source}} and {{ orphaned fairuse not replaced}} to take images though our seven day queues? The problem with these two is that every so often, the main category of speedy candidates gets flooded with images when someone — who is trying to be helpful — goes through through the week-old subcategories of Category:Images with unknown source or Category:Orphaned fairuse images and retags the images for immediate deletion. × Meegs 18:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose we permit speedy deletion of articles with no sources. This would also include articles with self written sources. For example, the Liberal Party of Canada article referencing the Liberal Party of Canada web site. Thoughts? Alan.ca 06:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I recently tagged two article talk pages as needed, with a high class importance. This is part of the Cricket Wikiproject. However, the needed concept was ignored, and the pages were speedy deleted under G8. I do not see this as valuable to the encyclopedia at all. The two pages were about national cricket boards, which currently did not have articles. [1] [2]
Would it be possible to extend G8 to contain needed articles as an exception to the rule where talk pages are eliminated if articles do not exist. Ansell 08:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I was going to add "or information that is important for creating a legitimate page there." but I think it may need to be broader. For example, with repeatedly re-created pages (such as those which are deleted and protected), there is often information relevant to the deletion that will advise future editors why it was deleted in the past, which is usually relevant to whether it should be deleted in the future. Also, is the provision about deletion discussion that is not logged elsewhere still relevant? While there may exist extremely old pages that were on VfD, these discussions are not really important in the sense that future articles will probably go through an AfD, given that years have passed between the old article and the new, if they are re-created at all. — Centrx→ talk • 11:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I added a criteria T2, and noted it had been repealed by community consensus and was kept for historical reasons. My reasoning is this: A8 is kept, even though no longer applicable, to prevent another criteria from being added with the number A8. I submit the theory is that criteria numbers should be unique. T2 was listed for some time. Further, T2 is of historical interest, as there was a major comotion about it, before my time. There still exists a user category [[Category:Anti_T2_Wikipedians]]. As such, I believe that T2 should be kept for historical interest, and barred from being the number for a future, different criteria. I went ahead and made the change to WP:CSD feeling this will not be controversial, but I'm noting it here, just in case I am in error. I know it was contentious, and even resulted in protection of the CSD due to edit warring while under discussion. AubreyEllenShomo 21:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
[un-indent] Yes, but I think it would be difficult to explain unless you were immersed in the wars at the time. I haven't re-reverted you - I try to resist the temptation of editing in that way - but really think that leaving it like that is harmful to the healing process. Unfortunately, I know of no way to explain this concisely. Still, don't you think it would be better to defer to the wishes of people who feel that way? If a few others who went through it all come here and say they're okay with it, then that's fine, but I think it would take that before I'd be happy to see it in the form that's there. Metamagician3000 04:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
There have been a number of revisions and reverts being made to a number of CSD templates for example Template:nn-warn. The problem is some people want there to be a headline in the template, and others do not because if you create a new talk page then you create a header at the same time. Either way a decision has to be made so that there is consistency, and that New page patrollers are happy with these tools. I assume this is a suitable place for this discussion, if not tell me. Lethaniol 14:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
For Heading:
I think headline is useful, it is easy to use. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 14:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Against Heading:
I think that if a number of new talk pages are being tagged with CSD warnings then better not to have the heading in the template. Lethaniol 14:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Some issues: Some templates have them, some don't. It's inconsistent. Also, often there are circumstances where you really want a custom header for a particular situation, or you want to include a warning under a head that's already there. The editor leaving the tag should decide whether a header is appropriate, and what it should say. Also, frankly, the standard header is a link to the article. Once it's speedied, some people find the red link an irresistable temptation to recreate it. Fan-1967 14:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Agree that could have an unlinked heading, as stated above, but the main problem is that when creating a new talk page you are obliged to put in a Heading - so clashing with the template one - how do we get round that Tulkolahten? IMHO better to have to put your own heading, and not have to waste time to editing the page again to sort out heading issues. Lethaniol 15:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I prefer no header (and I've removed the header on some of these templates); I like to be able to use the + tab to add a warning. (This is especially true on long talk pages, to save strain on my browser, but long talk pages tend not to get speedy warnings very often.) The lack of header also means I can customize a header to the situation and it simplifies the scripts I use for warning users. -- ais523 16:35, 15 December 2006 ( U T C)
Ugh, no auto-header. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
If people want to check the list of AFD/CSD/PROD warnings see Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace#Deletion notifications Cheers Lethaniol 17:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
People who couldn't care less, but just want it to be consistent and not changing on every other template every ten minutes
We could have it no headline as the standard, but an extra template with the header, say the template's name was CSDNote, one with the header could be CSDNote-h. What does everyone think? (btw: don't bother with bringing up the amount of space of the servers, they've got tons). -- WikiSlasher 04:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
{{subst:welcome}}
, you'll get Hello, {{BASEPAGENAME}}, and
in the edit window. The boldness was to make sure it would get read (I can imagine a lot of people missing a comment stuffed in the middle of text like this). --
WikiSlasher
14:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think having a second template set is the best of ideas, but the idea of some fancy code as mentioned by BigDT above is good - can someone write such a code for one of the templates (can then copy to the rest), set the default to no header (as most people want that from this discussion). I only ask because I am useless at coding :(:( Lethaniol 12:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Currently says: "Talk pages of pages that do not exist, unless they contain deletion discussion that isn't logged elsewhere."
I've seen a practice to keep talk pages also in cases when the discussion continues about the creation of a valid article (discussing reliable sources, etc.)
Should this option be codified as well? `' mikkanarxi 22:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I think whenever an article is deleted, the talk page should stay (unless of course the only thing on it is "This article is a part of WikiProject blahblah", then it can be deleted). Sometimes the discussion could be useful for some reason. -- WikiSlasher 04:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really sure why we ever delete talk pages. We definitely should not do it until some time after the article is deleted. It still leaves me bewildered when I return to an article I frequent, to find it was deleted by some random process, and the talk page is gone too, making it very hard to understand why it got deleted in the first place.
It had been my practice to create talk pages before I create the article, storing there all the tools needed to quickly create the article: Urls, notes, comparisons to seemingly similar articles, etc. I was quite annoyed to see Template:Future_article_talk_page had been deleted, and worse yet so had it's talk page! I can understand someone disagreeing with the policy, but it was excessive to then also delete the talk page. Mathiastck 15:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Now who noxiously protected this? Suggest changes the "Test pages" example to something that we see ALOT more often the "Can I really...":
'''''Bold text''[[[Link title] == [[Image:Headline text]][[Media:<math>Example.ogg</math>--~~~~Insert non-formatted text here]] == ]]'''
IE. The "hit all the buttons in a row" test. 68.39.174.238 00:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I6 pertains to "image or media tagged only with a generic fair use template". My reading of this is that it is NOT applicable to media that is correctly tagged with {{ logo}}, {{ eventposter}}, {{ tvscreenshot}}, or one of the other specific image tags, but, rather, should only be used with {{ Non-free fair use in}} or one of the other generic image tags. Is this understanding correct?
I have seen, far too many times, logos and other images where the rationale is exceedingly obvious and stated right on the tag, tagged with {{ nrd}}. This is obviously a bad thing. It either (1) gets a legitimate image deleted or (2) just creates work for someone to have to copy and paste the rationale off of the tag. What I would like to do is clarify what is already the policy right now by adding example tags and by suggesting WP:SOFIXIT as an alternative to deletion.
So my proposal is to modify I6 as such (my changes in bold)
Any image or media tagged only with a generic fair use template, such as {{ Non-free fair use in}}, with no fair use rationale, may be deleted seven days after it was uploaded. Images tagged with a specific fair use tag, such as {{ DVDcover}}, {{ Albumcover}}, or {{ tvscreenshot}} should not be deleted under this criterion, but may be deleted under I1 or I7, if applicable. If an image is merely mistagged, please consider correcting it, if possible, rather than nominating it for deletion. Images and other media uploaded before May 4, 2006 ...
Any thoughts? BigDT 04:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll agree that we all need to get on the same page for this issue. CAT:NR has a huge number of images with one of the tags that includes a rationale. It sounds like some delete those and some don't. — Wknight94 ( talk) 17:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted Mangojuice's change. Several people above are saying that rationales should always be necessary, so there doesn't seem to be consensus that this just applies to {{ fairuse}} and {{ Non-free fair use in}}. I also suggest looking through the archives, as that's what it originally did, then, if I recall correctly, there was a discussion that decided it should apply to all fair use templates. -- Rory096 01:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I've changed it so it clearly applies to all fair use templates ( [5]). Per discussion above, all images used under an assertion of fair use should have individualized rationales. -- Rory096 08:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I still think that allowing this to apply to all fair use image templates is not good. The Microsoft logo example by BigDT is a good one explaining the problem; I noticed Image:7-eleven logo.gif tagged with NRD and looks like it was deleted - so should people in the same vein go NRD the Wal-mart logo? The original I6 language was good in defining the speediable images to {{ fairuse}} images, the new language simply justifies the mass speedying of otherwise legitimate images. While rationales should always be necessary it shouldn't be speediable, like {{ fairusereduce}} tagged images handled per Wikipedia's fair use policy are categorized, not just put to CSD. I still would suggest creating a template that simply categorizes other fair use images (with tags {{ DVDcover}}, {{ Albumcover}}, {{ tvscreenshot}}, {{ logo}} etc.) without rationales, helping people who want to write FU rationales to find those images easily and still makes uploaders aware of the problem. At least the I6 criterion language should be restored to the original, which was changed without consensus. feydey 00:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm still lost as to what the decision was/is. I've been tagging any FU image (from {{ fair use in}} to {{ albumcover}}) because I thought all fair use images uploaded after May 2006 needed FU rationale. Now I'm reading that is not the case. So what do we do about images with the more specific templates that do not have rationale? Ignore them? Every FU templates states that detailed FU rationale must be provided. I guess I'm just seeking clarification as I may have been incorrectly tagging images for the past month.-- NMajdan• talk 15:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I placed a db/G11 tag on New Zealand Disaster Assistance Response Team, and the creator responded with a {{ hangon}}.
Discussion ensued on the Talk:New_Zealand_Disaster_Assistance_Response_Team page. Still seems clearcut to me-- see bottom of the talk page.
So the question is, at what point do I change this to an AfD or a Prod? TIA, -- Mwanner | Talk 22:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
FYI: A discussion has taken place on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard under the heading "Consensus on vandalism user subpages" (<= that is a permalink reference) which argues for extension by consensus the application of CSD G3 (Pure vandalism) to user subpages that are advertised as being targets for invited vandalism. Regards --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 23:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Per What Wikipedia is Not Policy: ... not a free file host. -> File storage areas. Please upload only files that are used (or will be used) in encyclopedia articles or project pages; anything else will be deleted. If you have extra relevant images, consider uploading them to the Wikimedia Commons, where they can be linked from Wikipedia." (bold mine, should read article or project namespace) As such, any image uploaded that is not used in article or project namespace within 2 hours of its upload timestamp, and the image is deemed not to have encyclopedic value, shall fit under this criteria. If a user cannot upload an image and add the image within 2 hours of the upload, and the image appears to be UE, then they most likely are abusing the uploading capability. Further, users deemed to have uploaded a file that fits under this CSD criteria shall be warned with a template TBD. Uploading another file that results in this CSD deletion shall require a 1 week block of their uploading privileges. If it is not possible to just block upload privileges, a 1 week block on the account in general shall occur instead. If an image is tagged with this CSD, and by the time an administrator gets around to deleting it, it is included in the article or project namespace, the CSD template shall be removed. Warnings shall only be given by admins once the image is deleted. -- MECU≈ talk 00:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to propose Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline as a guideline to detail the necessary components of a fair use rationale. At present, it's kindof a moving target. Some pages have a detailed, bulleted rationale, while others have a one sentence "this picture identifies the subject". Patroling Category:All images with no fair use rationale, I've seen image pages that explicitly have something of a rationale that have been nominated for a speedy. So I would like for us to formalize what is required. I have also created Template:Fair use rationale that I am proposing we use as a template to assist users in creating an acceptable rationale. Please see Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline and the associated talk page to give your thoughts and ideas. BigDT 22:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
When an admin deletes an article with images through one of the normal deletion processes they don't necessarily delete the images (see, for example, this AfD, where the images remain). Sometimes they may be deleted in the spirit of A7 or IAR, but there's no policy or process basis that I can find to delete them, leading to some hesitancy. Such images could be listed at IfD as orphans and be deleted more slowly, but this requires extra time and effort from both the administrators handling deletion backlogs and reviewers at IfD. Instead, I propose to allow admins to speedy delete images from deleted articles.
The only counter-argument I can see is that images could be re-used in other articles, leading to disputes at AfD about whether to keep an image that might be useful elsewhere. That said, images on en-WP (as opposed to Commons) are often only categorized by license, meaning if one doesn't know the name of whatever image one is looking for, one wouldn't find it. Here's the current proposal:
I don't think this has any downsides, but people are suckers for their own ideas. Your thoughts?-- Kchase T 01:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
How is this useful? Aside from fair use concerns, unused images are pretty harmless. Many get moved to Commons eventually, where they hopefully find a happy and well-organized home. I don't think leaving them lying around actually hurts anything. Dragons flight 02:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem with this proposal is that it calls for overly subjective judgement on the part of sysops. One admin's idea of what constitutes "possible encyclopedic use" will vary greatly from that of another admin. That's why this sort of question should be posed to the community.
Image:TOC_Chad.jpg might seem like a clear-cut deletion candidate (and it almost certainly will be deleted), but suppose for a moment that
this image (which appears in the
Beard and
Full beard articles) had been uploaded for use in a vanity article about its subject. I certainly wouldn't trust a random admin (or any one person) to make the determination that it has encyclopedic use. —
David Levy
07:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I support the notion of allowing Speedy Deletion for Orphaned Images which reside on Wikipedia. My understanding is that image undeletion is supported now and is not that much more difficult than article undeletion. If the situation were still that images once gone are gone and must be re-uploaded, I would be opposed and ask for a higher bar for deletion. Further, the argument that an image might be useful in another context is valid, agreed, and I think a guideline would be good that before speedy deleting one brain cell be expended to consider if the image is generally useful vs. specifically useful ... i.e. useful to another article vs. useful only to the article being deleted. The majority of images I have been sending to IFD in the past couple of days were associated with articles that were deleted due to notability deficits. My thinking is that if the subject of an article is non-notable, a picture of that subject is equally non-notable. Images associated with articles deleted under other circumstances might well be more complex to determine broader utility. As a follow-on question — does anyone know how stringently the 'utility to other wikimedia projects' criterion is applied on Commons, how eager/willing they are at Commons to delete orphaned images? Regards --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 18:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually agree with many of the points raised above that my idea won't work. I'm not going to strike my comments, as this is still provoking a good and important discussion, but I just wanted to register that I have abandoned the proposal.-- Kchase T 20:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
There has been a discussion above whether CSD templates should have a Header or not. It has been proposed by BigDT that we can have it both ways with a template that allows you to insert a header or not, and even what that header says.
Copied from above = Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#CSD templates
Now as this tool will likely be used in all the CSD templates I wanted to check there were no issues before doing this and that there was consensus. Please say yay or nay to this solution, and particular bring up any problems that need to be solved. Cheers Lethaniol 16:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
So far everyone thinks it is a good idea - have converted Template:nn-warn to use this header format. Please check my work - and any suggestions would be welcomed. Lethaniol 16:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Dgies there is no edit warring going on, the vast majority of people that have talked about this - see other section above as well - do not want there to be a header - consensus has already been reached. Not to mention the fact that the Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings are going to soon remove all headings from such templates - see their tasks. So please can we change the default back to no heading. Lethaniol 23:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Right have added up the - Header versus no Header responses from this and the above section Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#CSD_templates. This includes people's thoughts before the on/off header was devised, as it is highly likely those in favour of a header would see that it should be on as standard and vice versa.
For Header: ≈Tulkolahten≈ Dgies J Di
Against Header: Lethaniol Fan-1967 ais523 EVula Chrislk02 Yuser31415 nae'blis WikiSlasher MER-C BigNate37
Do not care: BigDT
Am not sure: Bubba hotep
So that is basically - 3/10/2 - clear consensus for no header as standard and again not to push the point too much, WP:UW are also against. Anyone want to add their opinions/votes? Lethaniol 21:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Since the {{ drmspeedy}} template has been modified to only apply to the original creator, an anon IP or sockpuppet can now remove the tags as many times as they want. Ideas? Fan-1967 20:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to let people know, the flip-side of this is that people angry about having their articles speedied sometimes put tags on articles that don't deserve it ( example). A hard and fast policy or process that only an admin can remove a tag is probably not the best idea, but letting IPs and meatpuppets remove tags in general is (as the above discussion indicates) also not helpful. Frankly, IAR and common sense is the only balance I see between the two.-- Kchase T 22:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
It takes three extra edits, but you can always AfD an article (which can't be removed unless it's a clear speedy keep), and vote speedy delete right away. (which isn't really POINT because if you prod it, they'll just yank it, so you'll take it to AfD eventually anyway). Alternatively, hop on IRC and post something with "!admin" it, noting that someone keeps removing a speedy tag, and an admin will delete it ASAP even if the tag has been removed. -- Interiot 05:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
{{ drmspeedy}} shouldn't apply to an anon despeedying a newly-created page, even if it is a sockpuppet. On the other hand, edit warring over a speedy-delete tag is still edit-warring; it would seem to me to be grounds for an AN/I report, which can lead to a block much faster than a mere drmspeedy warning, especially if abusive sockpuppetry or vandalism is suspected. -- ais523 10:00, 20 December 2006 ( U T C)
I just wanted to chime in and say that if the drmspeedy template does not meet the situation appropriately, there is nothing wrong with writing a message by hand that gets the point across. It's called discussion, and it doesn't have to be friendly in every circumstance that doesn't include substituting a template. Of course, there's a line between a terse warning and harassment, and one must be aware of that when writing their own hand-crafted messages. Yes, it is better to have a standard template for a few different reasons, but in the mean time I don't see anything wrong with continuing on in the best interests of the project. BigNate37 (T) 16:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
On another note, this might reach a point where tagging an article for speedy deletion and then fighting to keep it there against the creator's intentions becomes more work than having it speedied through AfD, which defeats the purpose of CSD. Since removing an AfD notice without closing the AfD is a no-no, perhaps by extension the CSD policy should be tweaked such that only those qualified to respond to CSD tags (i.e. sysops) should be removing the CSD templates which were added in good faith—in other words, except in cases of vandalism, user conflict, violations of WP:POINT, etc.? I would say that the only time a non-admin should be removing good-faith CSD tags is if they're permitted to close them per WP:CSD, that is to say it's a seperate issue that shouldn't be confused into this one. BigNate37 (T) 16:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
CSD R2 is about "Redirects to the Talk:, User: or User_talk: space from the main article space"; however, the corresponding deletion template listed in the table is {{ db-rediruser}}, "CSD R2: Redirect to user page.", and I could not find any other one for other spaces. Does such a template exist, or should this one be modified or a new one created ? In particular, I have a bunch of redirects from main space to Talk: which should be listed for SD. Schutz 00:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd rather see a self rating implemented(every article should have some variables attached like thrustworthyness, joke , lie and vintage knowledge for example. readers who feel obliged to keep the wiki clean can then rate articles to their hearts content and others can choose if they like to filter according to those ratings by means of a slider that goes from commonly accepted to absolutely ridicullus, so readers can set theire own prefs.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ysvry ( talk • contribs)
I notice that G4 allows for the recreation of deleted content in user space. I have seen cases where deleted content was recreated on a user's primary user page appearingly to spite the will of the community. The first that comes to mind is User:List of marijuana slang terms which was used to display the deleted content of List of marijuana slang terms. Now I see the primary user page of User:Patchouli is displaying content from the deleted Veil fetishism article. I see such utilization of primary user pages as done to have these user pages become defacto articles. I understand editor's need to utilize user space for developmental purposes but I think this should be done in sub pages. I'd like to update the wording of G4 to reflect this logic and was wondering what the level of support for such a change was? ( → Netscott) 14:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Infoboxes can be quite extensive and contain a lot of information. However, it seems that having an infobox only or an infobox alongside rewording of infobox content as the only text for an article doesn't seem to be representative of a reasonable article. Such an article couldn't really be deleted under, for instance, A1 or A3 (short+no context or no content) as the infobox provides the context and information in it can be extensive. Would you agree that A1 and A3 are not suitable for speedy deleting such articles? (example Dugway High School) --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 20:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Please see Template talk:No rationale. I started a discussion there that no one seems to be interested in. Basically, CSD I5 originally applied only to images tagged with {{ fairuse}} or {{ Non-free fair use in}} but somehow the interpretation has been broadened to all fair use tags -- I don't remember any discussion on this -- but IMHO the wording is still confusing. Thanks. howch e ng { chat} 00:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to propose that the following criteria be added:
This comes up often, as people write their own bio and include an image, or about a company and include a logo, etc. — Mets501 ( talk) 20:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I really miss a db-bio for images. Frigo 01:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm still on a learning curve with new page CSD patrol, and I just started using the template tags recommended in the CSD boxes for informing the creator of the page. But I was a bit surprised and alarmed that the automatic messages from the couple of templates i just tried out 1) assume that the CSD nominator has made a totally valid CSD nomination, when in fact it this may be challenged and the nominator may be in error and 2) the message consequently goes against the spirit of WP:BITE which as I understand, is regarded as especially important for new page patrol. There should at least be a mention that the tagger may be wrong and that the tagging is challengeable. Furthermore, the tone of the messages is a bit too aggressive, I feel. (In the particular case I was just involved in, the user was creating obviously nonsense/possibly attack pages, so I'm not withdrawing the tags as they're somewhat appropriate, but what about more innocent newbies?)
I haven't looked at all the templates yet but here are the examples of the templates I just tried out:
How do others feel about this issue? Bwithh 02:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC) "The deletionist with a heart of gold"
We need a CSD for templates which are duplicates of other templates which serves no distinct purpose and/or serves the same purpose and has no transclusions. An example of this is Template:Vandlised, a near-duplicate of Template:Protected template. It has no difference, was created two days ago by a user with no edit summary, and has no links. Thoughts? -- Renesis ( talk) 00:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The "Patant copyright violation" bit has a field for entrance of the URL where the image was taken from. Now, If I know the image to be Patant copyright violation because I know where it comes from in a book, not a webpage, and I know that it was not legitimatly tagged as all rights released, what tag am I supposed to use? Thanatosimii 21:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
As a result of Template:Kaboohoo Network, I suggest this:
Pages which exist which solely as promotion for a company, product, group or service and which would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic to become articels or templates which are used solely to link to illegitimate external sites or are useful only on pages which also meet this criterion. Note that simply having a company, product, group or service as its subject does not qualify an article for this criterion.
Basically that template was a collection of internal links, all of which were SPAMs. The "illegitimate external link" thing should work for stuff like links to copyright violating lyrics sites, or the notorious 'AE SPAMmers. 68.39.174.238 19:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
News media photos are not acceptable for fair use unless the photo itself is famous or iconic. (See WP:FAIR#Counterexamples #5.) Search the image namespace for something like "news.yahoo.com" [8], "Associated Press" [9], or "Reuters" [10] and you will find a gracious plenty news media photos that cannot possibly be considered fair use. The way that news media photographers put food on their table is by selling their photograph. When Wikipedia uses the photo without paying royalties, we are using the image in exactly the way that they are trying to sell the photo and because of potential downstream use, it has a substantial "effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." There's no way that a media photo can be fair use for the purpose of illustrating the subject of the photo ... and these things are constantly getting re-uploaded. I would like to propose that we make it a CSD. At least that would keep us from having to go through the same WP:SNOW process of running them through IFD. -- BigDT 04:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Please take a look at WP:IFD, particularly at Image:Napier-Red-Tape.jpg, Image:Iraqi insurgents celebrate while riding through the streets of Falluja, May 1, 2004.jpg, and some of the images after it. I think that these discussions really underscore why we need an unambiguous policy about it. We obviously can't use these things, but I understand why some people are upset - the prohibition on media photos is pretty well hidden and if you've spent a lot of time working on an article, you don't like suddenly having your pictures taken away. I would strongly suggest that we move this along and come up with some text that will work and be mutually agreeable. I am linking to this discussion on Wikipedia talk:Fair use. -- BigDT 07:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm confused, in that Wikipedia:Fair use#Non-compliance says "Images that do not comply with this policy within 48 hours after notification to the editor who uploaded the image will be deleted". Older images, are given 7 days. So the only way of toughening things is to allow deletion even faster. But, I don't think that's what anyone is asking for. Also, is misuse of press photos worse than other fair use problems? I'm rather unclear why IFD is used at all. I thought the standard for bad fair use, is to tag the image, and have any discussion on its talk page. -- Rob 14:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I like this proposal. Images generated by media agencies shouldn't be on Wikipedia, except in cases of unrepeatable events (i.e. Elian Gonzalez). So the wording should be carefully scripted so as to permit fair use in 1 very exacting case.
This wording would allow things like Elian Gonzalez while disallowing the random usage of photos (like the celebrating iraqi insurgents). As an aside, though, I want to be absolutely certain this CSD has specific wording that says it has nothing to do with agency publicity photos. I think it needs to be very clear this CSD has nothing to do with publicity photos.-- Jeff 19:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
(de-indenting) Technically, they are copyright violations; and copyright violations are already speediable under G-12. ~ ONUnicorn( Talk| Contribs) problem solving 15:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The various versions of {{ db-nn}} ({{ db-bio}}, {{ db-band}}, etc.) all contain the wording: "does not assert the importance or significance of the subject" Even though the link behind the "importance or significance" phrase is to Wikipedia:Notability, the fact is that Wikipedia's definition of notability is not, in fact, a measure of "importance or significance." It is a measure of whether a subject has received significant public attention. This causes issues for new editors, who are frequently arguing that a subject is important or significant, when the actual problem is that the subject is practically unknown. Many may argue that a person or organization's activity is in an important area (because it's groundbreaking in some way, or addresses a significant problem), but the template doesn't tell them that Wikipedia requires that the subject be in some way well-known. Is there some way this could be better phrased? Fan-1967 20:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
How can someone with 3 honorary doctorates and a former chairman of an ivy league college Department of Biology and is a fellow of the AAAS be nonnotable? --Filll 02:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC) John Tyler Bonner is the page. It is just a stub. Much more is possible if you will let me work on this. This guy had an amazing career. he got a PhD at the same time as serving in the air force! As near as I can tell he got it from harvard in 2 or 3 years, with the war in between. He is a very central figure in popularizing evolution. Many visiting professorships around the world and a long long list of honors aside from being a fellow and 3 honorary doctorates aside from his earned doctorate. And still very active at an advanced age. not notable?
Speaking as the editor in question who started this article on John Tyler Bonner, I have had this happen a couple of times. It makes me want to build an article in private until it is very full before I put it on WP. Some tiny stubs have no problem, like those of a hamlet with 4 houses someplace and 2 sentences describing the community. Others like this are attacked immediately. I had another one that had 10-15 links to it from other pages already on WP and the guy had commercial collaborations with several big name musicians plus was a professor and a radio show host and had been involved in several art projects around the world. And still the judgement was nonnotable. And 3 people on the talk page as well as me claiming this guy was important and notable. I was stunned. I figured it was a slam-dunk. How hard do I have to fight here ? Good heavens.-- Filll 07:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Filll, if I'm reading correctly it seems that it was a slight violation of policy for you to remove the speedy tag, even though you left the {{ hangon}} tag. Also I tried to find the source of the actual words of the editor that you quote from above, but did not succeed. I agree that it's puzzling he would not have perceived the notability of J.T.Bonner based on what you wrote. His comment that you found to be dripping with sarcasm is almost a literal quote from policy, so maybe he felt you were misunderstanding procedure by removing the speedy tag from an article you had created yourself. His tag was put on the very first version of the article, which was extremely stubby, and maybe that was his only evaluation of the content. (He may have felt that only the reviewing administrator, and not he himself, should remove the tag, so he wasn't going to do a new evaluation). Finally, I believe this is a page for policy debate. What are your recommendations for the future? EdJohnston 04:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to make it clear that what I gave is not an isolated example. This is slightly less clear cut, being an article about a commercial firm, and some of it does seem like advertising, anthough not blatently so:
Wine-Searcher.com provides a Google-like search for wines across the price lists of wine merchants, wineries, and wine auction houses world wide. Wine-Searcher started in 1999 and these days lists more than 7500 wine retailers price lists with over 2,000,000 pricing entries (as of July, 2006).
Wine-Searcher opened up the wine trade by providing full price transparency within wine retailing. Traditionally the pricing policies of retailers for older wines, and their availability and distribution of those wines, was hidden from all those outside of a very small group of international wine brokers. The prices charged by different retailers varied widely even within small regions.
Since 2002, Wine-Searcher has become the main reference source used by the wine trade to establish market value. It has also become more common for high-end wine enthusiasts to also act as collectors/traders of older vintages, that is, as well as purchasing wines for storage and later drinking many enthusiasts now also sell some of their older wines back to the market.
Wine-Searcher provides a free service for the casual wine drinker, and a comprehensive “Professional Version” for $29.95 (USD) per year. Other functionality includes a detailed breakdown of the world’s wine regions, a directory of wine stores by region, rankings of wines by search frequency, and the ability for collectors to advertise their excess wines for sale.
This was marked simply (WP:CSD#A7). It was by a different editor. Note the 1st sentence ofthe 3rd paragraph. This is as clear an assertion of notability as can be imagined. I doubt that this organization has the international significance that JB had, and I would certainly understand putting a tag on asking for removal of some of the advertising content, but not as a speedy, since there is objective content as well. But to mark nn (no assertion of notability) on an article saying "main reference source used by the [ ] trade"? I would ask for verifiability, but some people who place these nn tags do not read the articles. I think nn is too inherently controversal a category for speedy. DGG 22:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This just came through on wikipedia-l. Nominators and deleters are asked to take especial care to remember that not everything is on Google. And when some users are using a semiautomatic deletion bot to delete one entry every twenty seconds for an hour, it's easy to see many articles getting zapped inadvertently - David Gerard 14:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
From: "Frederick Noronha" email address removed To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World Hi all, I'm from India, a contributor to the Wikipedia. In recent times, the 'mortality' of new Wikipedia entries seems to be higher than usual. While one can understand the need for abundant caution, it's also important to allow for a diversity of concerns and issues in this space. Should we presume that because an initiative is not very visible in cyberspace (okay, we are under-digitised societies!) that it is not prominent or noteworthy? See as one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikalp This is a campaign against censorship of documentary film in India, one which has the participation of about 250 documentary film-makers. There must be some way out. Your suggestions would be welcome. FN -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please) http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php
I'm creating a category for generic fair use tags, so we can have an explanatory link in the policy. It will be Category:Wikipedia:Generic fair use tags. I think discussion should take place here, though, so it can attract the proper audience. In my view, the only tags that belong in this category are those that give such weak justification that it can never be enough justification for any image. My reasoning? We're defining this category for the purpose of speedily deleting any image marked with such a tag, with no further rationale. Despite what WP:FU says, a lot of the time a fair use tag comes pretty close to explaining the full rationale for the use of a non-free image, although sometimes it doesn't. But a template like {{ Non-free fair use in}} is never enough without further justification. Although certain templates like {{ tv-screenshot}} are very widely used, and generally require further explanation, they don't always, so we shouldn't be deleting those images (let alone, speedily without further discussion). Mango juice talk 16:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, please see WP:FURG. I really think that if we're going to expand the list of images that can be speedied for no rationale, we need to specify exactly what needs to be on a rationale. -- BigDT 02:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Can we have a time rule on the notification, or what about stubs? There was an AFD at Nullarbor (demo party) It didn't appear notable from the first edit, so it was AFDd. Can we get a ruling that allows articles that are starting to have a chance without having to waste effort on an AFD? I was thinking, that you should give someone more than 2 minutes before AFDing an article. I then thought about stubs. Are all of them required to assert notability or else they are speedy deleted? The deltionists out there could just start picking Stubs and delete them just on their own whims, because they fail A7? So I thought I'd pick a stub. Just one at random, so I've got a t=0, but still Tiki fails A7. I think a7 needs some modification. Personally, I don't think that it should be a7 should be speedy worthy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mckaysalisbury ( talk • contribs) 21:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC).
Would it be possible to put the "speedy" template on the Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion page's infobox. Either under the "speedy" category, or under the "Redirect" category? The other article speedies are listed, but this one isn't. There isn't an easy way to find the {{db-r1}} template! SkierRMH 01:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I've noticed an unfortunate problem on Wikipedia. There are a fair number of free images on Wikipedia that are not used anywhere on Wikipedia (articles, user pages, talk pages, etc.). Yet, no one seems to care about them enough to move them to the Wikimedia Commons, often because they have been made obsolete by a PNG or SVG version.
Because Wikipedia is not an orphanage, I propose that free images not used anywhere on Wikipedia should be tagged with {{ subst:ord}} and deleted after a certain period of time, say a week or a month.
I am very much open to other ideas. — Remember the dot ( t) 22:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I understand your arguments now and I agree with you. I've updated {{ Orphan image}} to be more clear about its use. — Remember the dot ( t) 23:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your replies. I reverted all the changes associated with this discussion that I could, and listed requests for the other changes that need to be made (i.e. deleting categories and templates, and moving a template back to where it was). — Remember the dot ( t) 00:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that many users remove the speedy deletion template when placing the {{ hangon}} template. Perhaps we should include an additional warning that says something like "...but do not remove the template" in all CSD templates. I think it would clear up confusion and reduce the need for the {{ drmspeedy}} series of templates. John Reaves 09:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I've spent about 30 minutes trying to figure out how to deal with an image that is claimed as a logo but probably is not; the source given is very vague (no URL). I suggest changing a phrase in "Images/Media 7. Invalid fair-use claim" from
to
Assuming that this is the correct procedure. ✤ JonHarder talk 23:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I've had this in my userspace for a while, and I've used it a few times, but I figure that it's about time that I put it forward here:
User:Ryulong/MySpace describes situations where articles about non-notable individuals or groups include their MySpace page in the article, which may or may not be considered an assertion of notability. I have used User:Ryulong/db-myspace to tag such articles a few times, but it could be used in the wider area of deletion tags.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 00:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
So? - Amarkov blah edits 04:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
This proposal reminds me that I recently declined to speedy a rejected proposal that technically met G7, but had relevant talk page discussion about why the proposal was rejected. Is an exception to G7 necessary for this, or are other admins declining those speedies anyway?-- Kchase T 12:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion#Prerequisites says: "Also note that even if a policy fails to gain consensus, it is often useful to retain it as a historical record, for the benefit of future editors." The 'rejected' tag should categorise all these rejected proposals anyway, and sometimes someone might gain some inspiration by brainstorming using all these rejected proposals. It does help to see where the limits are if the rejected stuff is also visible. Carcharoth 17:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I've expanded the admin guidelines as follows: "Please also check to see if there is ongoing discussion in progress on the talk page, and assess whether the talk page discussion should be moved or archived to a new location." - this follows from the reasoning that there is sometimes useful content on talk pages. Of course, most stuff deleted under CSD doesn't have talk pages, but that doesn't mean that talk pages shouldn't be checked when they exist. Carcharoth 17:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It is not uncommon for articles to be speedied as re-creations of deleted content, even when the original article was only speedied the first time (i.e., it never passed through XfD or any other formal process). Would it be OK to reword G4 to make it very clear that it does *not* apply to anything that has not passed through a formal deletion discussion? -- Visviva 06:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Can we add other "unremarkable" items to this list, such as "objects and entities".
I'm looking at a speedy delete request for a fairly unremarkable object (a guitar model which has a particular given name because some musician uses it), but although articles on unremarkable "people, groups, companies and web content" which don't appear to establish importance are listed in A7, "objects" and "other kinds of unremarkable things" don't. Is this an omission? FT2 ( Talk | email) 11:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, it's worth reminding people about criterion G3 (pure vandalism). An article about someone's pet, to me at least, is pure vandalism: I can't imagine that I would stretch WP:AGF so far as to imagine that such a worthless contribution would not be vandalism. Mango juice talk 03:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Some people have been taking contested speedies directly to DRV. It is obvious that is a speedy is contested in good faith, reasonable doubt will exist, and the speedy designation should, in retrospect, not have been used. Not that the designator was necessarily wrong to list it, for it might have seemed obvious, but once it is contested it is no longer obvious. (There are also speedies contested in bad faith, just to slow things down, and I agree that if it is really clear that it is just that, it can still be deleted) Further, not all contested speedies necessarily need AfD, because the article might have been so much improved immediately that there would be no reason to delete it at all. But I think the wording needs to be changed, perhaps to say that after a speedy is contested, if someone still wants to delete it, the next step is prod or AfD. (unless there is an indisputable reason why that is not appropriate) . DGG 23:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Relevant policy for undeletions is WP:UNDEL, which states:
If an article was speedy deleted, this may have been done in error. You may ask any administrator to undelete an article if it has been obviously deleted out of process (no justification under the deletion policy). See the "Exceptions" section below. An article undeleted in this way may be listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion if it still appears to be deletable under the deletion policy. If you cannot persuade an administrator that the deletion was in error, try Wikipedia:Deletion review.
Note that this is not simply Rossami's "any good-faith request", it requires an out-of-process action by the deleting admin. Since most admin's are loath to overturn another admin's action and the deleting admins usually stick to their prior call, speedies tend to end up at DRV. So the "contested speedies should get a full discussion" is certainly fulfilled under the current setup. The issue here is mostly one of status quo bias: Existing articles are not deleted unless there is a consensus to do so (ca. 2/3–3/4 under the old vote-counting scheme), deleted articles are not restored unless there is majority in favor. I'm not convinced that this bias is detrimental to the project, looking at the quality of speedied articles that are nominated at DRV on a daily basis. There's more of a problem coming from the fact that AfD's create a short window of high scrutiny for some very obscure articles, so the five days listed usually create the best opportunity for an article to be improved. Of course that's something that doesn't happen if the article is deleted or protected. ~ trialsanderrors 11:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I want to amplify and clarify my previous statement in two respects. I agree that if there is a substantial claim that a speedied article does not in fact meet the speedy criteria, sending it to AfD is a Good Thing™. However, I believe that it should be up to the deleting admin to make that call, rather than creating a substantive process. Secondly, I want to point out that DRV is quite willing to overturn improper speedies (as opposed to AfD's which are rarely overturned from Delete to Keep). I just don't see the problem that DGG claims to. Eluchil404 12:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Ugh, what a mess. I used to find my way around templates much faster, but somehow now I can't find in which page the {{ nothanks-web}} and related have been put, so I am bringing it here. Templates like that one must have been created thinking in the 14 days copyright timeframe, where an editor had 2 weeks to prove he is the owner of copyright. Right now, that kind of templates is being used when G12 is applied (blatant copyright violation). The instructions in the template state that the user should make a note in the article talk page to confirm he has the copyright permission. However, since the articles are being speedy deleted, this causes new users to create talk pages of deleted articles that will never be read. Can we have a full review of templates with similar problems ({{ nothanks-sd}} comes to my mind) and consider a new approach to this issue? Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 19:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
As you may have noticed, the criteria for speedy deletion for images or media are different to all the other criteria in that many of them include time delays, periods during which an image or media page must be tagged with some template or another for a certain number of days before the image can be deleted. This is in contrast to the criteria for, say, articles, which allow immediate deletion (hence "speedy deletion"). The reasons for including these time delays were historically sound: before June last year, it was not possible to undelete image or media files once they had been deleted. However, we now have this feature, which means there is no longer a good reason for having time delays in the criteria.
I propose that:
Discuss. -- bainer ( talk) 00:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
{{
category redirect}}
and leave a clue for others so the error doesn't get perpetuated, repeated, or become contentious. These things can all wait, as they aren't out in main space readily available to the customer-readers. <Shrug>. <g> I'm not the emperor of the universe, alas! Can we eliminate A7 as a criterion for speedy deletion? Of all the criteria, this one seems the most subjective, and the most error-prone. Many A7s will qualify under other criteria; the rest should be prod'd or go to AfD. The definition of notability is fairly fuzzy, and the A7 criterion is just asking administrators to make judgement calls on their own which should be made by the community at large instead. Argyriou (talk) 20:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me propose the following simple change: restrict A7 to articles created in the past X days, where fewer than Y editors have contributed to the article. Some of the problems would still remain, but it would force us to take a more careful look at any article that had been edited broadly, or had existed on Wikipedia for a long time. Most speedy tags that I've seen are applied almost right away, but every so often, I find a very old article with an A7 tag on it. A lot of times, those articles have already survived a round of speedy deletion requests, so at the least, classifying them as A7 should be considered controversial. After an article has been around for a few days, it's been through the gauntlet of NP patrollers, and if it has passed, we should probably think twice about deleting it without any debate. The more important restriction, though, is the Y editors restriction: overwhelmingly, the articles that need to be deleted are only substantially edited by 1, sometimes two editors (and sometimes 3 or 4 if you count IPs). False positives may also fit this mold, but a lot of the worst false positives don't. Values for X and Y were difficult for me to choose -- perhaps 30 days and (fewer than) 4 editors? Mango juice talk 21:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The original proposal which created A7 passed with less than 75% of the vote; the arguments against passing it were stong enough that a responsible administrator would close such a discussion as "no consensus". The explanation of A7 states that the article may be speedied if there is
“ | No reason to think that the subject is remarkable and no claim that it is notable. | ” |
The current wording of A7 makes eligible for speedy deletion "An article about a real person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content that does not assert the importance or significance of its subject.". That wording makes the standard less clear, and more prone to abuse. However, as I've seen people arguing (or acting) that articles qualify as A7 when they clearly do not meet the criterion, I believe it is better to eliminate the criterion altogether. Argyriou (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
How about changing "does not assert the importance or significance of its subject" to "is unquestionably a topic that cannot meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines". There needs to be something in there so that an article about a high school kid can be deleted. -- BigDT 02:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I dislike constructions that elevate actions that require an agent, such as questioning the notability (or lack thereof) of a topic, to the level of objective judgements such as "unquestionable". What's unquestionable for the goose, etc. This is not a trival objection: judging the notability of a subject per
WP:N can often be a non-trivial process. How many times have we seen articles rescued from the pits of AfD because the nominators mistakenly considered the subject to be non-notable? Second, the statement "cannot meet Wikipedia's notability guideline" is falsified if (in the future) these guidelines are relaxed. Furthermore, the subject can in principle become notable by, for example, doing great things, not to mention that even apparently minor actors and events can accrue notability in the historical view. The guidelines are also not self-justifying. It would be better to state what quality (notability) the article lacks, and point to the method one might use to judge the quality (notability guidelines).
To crystallise my objections, I counterpropose to change the phrase to "does not provide any evidence for the notability of its subject". It is easy to check whether evidence is provided or not. The quality of the evidence may be sorely lacking, but that can be judged at AfD. — Kaustuv CHAUDHURI 03:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
There are distinct problems as far as New Pages Patrol is concerned in A7 is removed or altered too much. At the moment, A7 is very much a fence at the top of the cliff stopping the ambulances at the bottom (AfD and prod) becoming so overloaded as to be unusable. I'd say that 10-20% of newly created articles are vanity articles or otherwise easily fail A7. Remove or alter A7 too much, and all of those articles - potentially hundreds per day - will haveto be deleted via other means. To solve this problem, I would like to suggest that perhaps a time limit be placed on A7, rather than any significant changes to the spirit of the wording. This could be achieved by simply making it something like "This article is less than one month old and does not assert the importance or significance of its subject". If it can survive scrutiny for a month, chances are someone at least thought it was worth keeping, so should go through the AfD process. Grutness... wha? 03:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
As much as I'd like to be amiable and think up a new rule that everybody can agree on, the essential goal of A7 is to delete non-notable topics, and notability is subjective. Our guidelines often find exceptions at AfD, and our standards are constantly shifting. Often a claim of non-notability in AfD is met with vehement and legitimate denial. I once rescued an article ( Chan's algorithm) that someone repeatedly tried to delete as non-notable despite publication and wide notability in the field of computational geometry, variously claiming that it had no context or didn't have enough Google hits. You need multiple views to resolve notability in any meaningful way, and if AfD can't handle the load, we'll have to find some other way. Speedy deletion and notability don't mix. Deco 04:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I went and looked again at User:Mangojuice/a7. First off, I noticed that many of the A7s would probably qualify under G11. There seems to be one big defect that many of the non-notable vanity articles have, and that's a lack of source material. Articles may qualify under A7 by saying "Joe Blow is a champion cocaine snorter, and won the Lower Manhattan Snorting Championships in 1992.", but not actually providing any proof.
So, as I see it, the problems are:
So, instead of a speedy delete for A7, we create something like {{ prod}}, where in the case of a probably non-notable person, we require someone to add sources to support the assertion of notability. If no source is provided within one week, it gets deleted. Unlike prod, the proposed {{ show source}} would not be removable (in the same sense an AfD tag is not removable). The template would do all the category and date things which prod does, so that admins could look for articles which hadn't provided sources and delete them without going to AfD.
Hopefully, a mechanism like this would take care of the four problems I listed above. I think we'd see a lot of band articles deleted under G11 instead, but that doesn't bother me so much. Argyriou (talk) 17:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
There is some confusion regarding how hoaxes are dealt with. I specifically refer to this AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giovanni DonCara which got speedily deleted under G3 as a hoax, indeed Wikipedia:Vandalism states that hoaxes are vandalism. Yet G1 states that hoaxes are not candidates for speedy deletion and WP:HOAX guidelines state that hoaxes should be dealt with through AfD. These two contradictory terms need to be cleared up. So what is it to be in regard to hoaxes, CSD G3 or AfD? -- tgheretford ( talk) 21:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I cleaned this up, as now-defunct criteria A6 was still on there (it is now part of G10). Shin'ou's TTV ( Futaba| Masago| Kotobuki) 22:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
If anybody has time, I ran a report of redirects that need to be deleted under CSD-R2. (these are from a month-old dump, so they can all be deleted) -- Interiot 22:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Category criterion 1, that of empty categories, should be expanded or clarified in that an empty category does not count as content for the purposes of establishing whether another category is empty, e.g. Category:A contains Category:B and Category:C, however, B and C are both empty. If A contains other articles or categories, it is clearly not empty, but if A contains nothing other than the two empty categories, it should be treated as empty (as a category containing only empty categories is about as useful as an empty category itself - administrativia aside). Any thoughts? Chris cheese whine 06:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I've just put a regular (not speedy) deletion tag at Eric Devendorf, and found this page that says "The result of the debate was DELETE. - Splash 01:52, 10 September 2005 (UTC)." The article is still here, and still doesn't seem particularly notable. -- Tenebrae 16:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Template for notifying a user whose article I just tagged for speedy. See Wikipedia_talk:Template_messages/User_talk_namespace#speedy_deletion_user_page_warning_templates?. Where is it? and/or Is there a good reason for not having one? ∴ here… ♠ 01:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Do we need the {{ db-unksource}} and {{ db-unfree}} templates, which basically say "delete this now", when we have {{ no source}} and {{ orphaned fairuse not replaced}} to take images though our seven day queues? The problem with these two is that every so often, the main category of speedy candidates gets flooded with images when someone — who is trying to be helpful — goes through through the week-old subcategories of Category:Images with unknown source or Category:Orphaned fairuse images and retags the images for immediate deletion. × Meegs 18:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I propose we permit speedy deletion of articles with no sources. This would also include articles with self written sources. For example, the Liberal Party of Canada article referencing the Liberal Party of Canada web site. Thoughts? Alan.ca 06:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I recently tagged two article talk pages as needed, with a high class importance. This is part of the Cricket Wikiproject. However, the needed concept was ignored, and the pages were speedy deleted under G8. I do not see this as valuable to the encyclopedia at all. The two pages were about national cricket boards, which currently did not have articles. [1] [2]
Would it be possible to extend G8 to contain needed articles as an exception to the rule where talk pages are eliminated if articles do not exist. Ansell 08:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I was going to add "or information that is important for creating a legitimate page there." but I think it may need to be broader. For example, with repeatedly re-created pages (such as those which are deleted and protected), there is often information relevant to the deletion that will advise future editors why it was deleted in the past, which is usually relevant to whether it should be deleted in the future. Also, is the provision about deletion discussion that is not logged elsewhere still relevant? While there may exist extremely old pages that were on VfD, these discussions are not really important in the sense that future articles will probably go through an AfD, given that years have passed between the old article and the new, if they are re-created at all. — Centrx→ talk • 11:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I added a criteria T2, and noted it had been repealed by community consensus and was kept for historical reasons. My reasoning is this: A8 is kept, even though no longer applicable, to prevent another criteria from being added with the number A8. I submit the theory is that criteria numbers should be unique. T2 was listed for some time. Further, T2 is of historical interest, as there was a major comotion about it, before my time. There still exists a user category [[Category:Anti_T2_Wikipedians]]. As such, I believe that T2 should be kept for historical interest, and barred from being the number for a future, different criteria. I went ahead and made the change to WP:CSD feeling this will not be controversial, but I'm noting it here, just in case I am in error. I know it was contentious, and even resulted in protection of the CSD due to edit warring while under discussion. AubreyEllenShomo 21:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
[un-indent] Yes, but I think it would be difficult to explain unless you were immersed in the wars at the time. I haven't re-reverted you - I try to resist the temptation of editing in that way - but really think that leaving it like that is harmful to the healing process. Unfortunately, I know of no way to explain this concisely. Still, don't you think it would be better to defer to the wishes of people who feel that way? If a few others who went through it all come here and say they're okay with it, then that's fine, but I think it would take that before I'd be happy to see it in the form that's there. Metamagician3000 04:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
There have been a number of revisions and reverts being made to a number of CSD templates for example Template:nn-warn. The problem is some people want there to be a headline in the template, and others do not because if you create a new talk page then you create a header at the same time. Either way a decision has to be made so that there is consistency, and that New page patrollers are happy with these tools. I assume this is a suitable place for this discussion, if not tell me. Lethaniol 14:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
For Heading:
I think headline is useful, it is easy to use. ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 14:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Against Heading:
I think that if a number of new talk pages are being tagged with CSD warnings then better not to have the heading in the template. Lethaniol 14:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Some issues: Some templates have them, some don't. It's inconsistent. Also, often there are circumstances where you really want a custom header for a particular situation, or you want to include a warning under a head that's already there. The editor leaving the tag should decide whether a header is appropriate, and what it should say. Also, frankly, the standard header is a link to the article. Once it's speedied, some people find the red link an irresistable temptation to recreate it. Fan-1967 14:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Agree that could have an unlinked heading, as stated above, but the main problem is that when creating a new talk page you are obliged to put in a Heading - so clashing with the template one - how do we get round that Tulkolahten? IMHO better to have to put your own heading, and not have to waste time to editing the page again to sort out heading issues. Lethaniol 15:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I prefer no header (and I've removed the header on some of these templates); I like to be able to use the + tab to add a warning. (This is especially true on long talk pages, to save strain on my browser, but long talk pages tend not to get speedy warnings very often.) The lack of header also means I can customize a header to the situation and it simplifies the scripts I use for warning users. -- ais523 16:35, 15 December 2006 ( U T C)
Ugh, no auto-header. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
If people want to check the list of AFD/CSD/PROD warnings see Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace#Deletion notifications Cheers Lethaniol 17:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
People who couldn't care less, but just want it to be consistent and not changing on every other template every ten minutes
We could have it no headline as the standard, but an extra template with the header, say the template's name was CSDNote, one with the header could be CSDNote-h. What does everyone think? (btw: don't bother with bringing up the amount of space of the servers, they've got tons). -- WikiSlasher 04:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
{{subst:welcome}}
, you'll get Hello, {{BASEPAGENAME}}, and
in the edit window. The boldness was to make sure it would get read (I can imagine a lot of people missing a comment stuffed in the middle of text like this). --
WikiSlasher
14:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think having a second template set is the best of ideas, but the idea of some fancy code as mentioned by BigDT above is good - can someone write such a code for one of the templates (can then copy to the rest), set the default to no header (as most people want that from this discussion). I only ask because I am useless at coding :(:( Lethaniol 12:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Currently says: "Talk pages of pages that do not exist, unless they contain deletion discussion that isn't logged elsewhere."
I've seen a practice to keep talk pages also in cases when the discussion continues about the creation of a valid article (discussing reliable sources, etc.)
Should this option be codified as well? `' mikkanarxi 22:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I think whenever an article is deleted, the talk page should stay (unless of course the only thing on it is "This article is a part of WikiProject blahblah", then it can be deleted). Sometimes the discussion could be useful for some reason. -- WikiSlasher 04:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really sure why we ever delete talk pages. We definitely should not do it until some time after the article is deleted. It still leaves me bewildered when I return to an article I frequent, to find it was deleted by some random process, and the talk page is gone too, making it very hard to understand why it got deleted in the first place.
It had been my practice to create talk pages before I create the article, storing there all the tools needed to quickly create the article: Urls, notes, comparisons to seemingly similar articles, etc. I was quite annoyed to see Template:Future_article_talk_page had been deleted, and worse yet so had it's talk page! I can understand someone disagreeing with the policy, but it was excessive to then also delete the talk page. Mathiastck 15:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Now who noxiously protected this? Suggest changes the "Test pages" example to something that we see ALOT more often the "Can I really...":
'''''Bold text''[[[Link title] == [[Image:Headline text]][[Media:<math>Example.ogg</math>--~~~~Insert non-formatted text here]] == ]]'''
IE. The "hit all the buttons in a row" test. 68.39.174.238 00:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I6 pertains to "image or media tagged only with a generic fair use template". My reading of this is that it is NOT applicable to media that is correctly tagged with {{ logo}}, {{ eventposter}}, {{ tvscreenshot}}, or one of the other specific image tags, but, rather, should only be used with {{ Non-free fair use in}} or one of the other generic image tags. Is this understanding correct?
I have seen, far too many times, logos and other images where the rationale is exceedingly obvious and stated right on the tag, tagged with {{ nrd}}. This is obviously a bad thing. It either (1) gets a legitimate image deleted or (2) just creates work for someone to have to copy and paste the rationale off of the tag. What I would like to do is clarify what is already the policy right now by adding example tags and by suggesting WP:SOFIXIT as an alternative to deletion.
So my proposal is to modify I6 as such (my changes in bold)
Any image or media tagged only with a generic fair use template, such as {{ Non-free fair use in}}, with no fair use rationale, may be deleted seven days after it was uploaded. Images tagged with a specific fair use tag, such as {{ DVDcover}}, {{ Albumcover}}, or {{ tvscreenshot}} should not be deleted under this criterion, but may be deleted under I1 or I7, if applicable. If an image is merely mistagged, please consider correcting it, if possible, rather than nominating it for deletion. Images and other media uploaded before May 4, 2006 ...
Any thoughts? BigDT 04:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll agree that we all need to get on the same page for this issue. CAT:NR has a huge number of images with one of the tags that includes a rationale. It sounds like some delete those and some don't. — Wknight94 ( talk) 17:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted Mangojuice's change. Several people above are saying that rationales should always be necessary, so there doesn't seem to be consensus that this just applies to {{ fairuse}} and {{ Non-free fair use in}}. I also suggest looking through the archives, as that's what it originally did, then, if I recall correctly, there was a discussion that decided it should apply to all fair use templates. -- Rory096 01:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I've changed it so it clearly applies to all fair use templates ( [5]). Per discussion above, all images used under an assertion of fair use should have individualized rationales. -- Rory096 08:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I still think that allowing this to apply to all fair use image templates is not good. The Microsoft logo example by BigDT is a good one explaining the problem; I noticed Image:7-eleven logo.gif tagged with NRD and looks like it was deleted - so should people in the same vein go NRD the Wal-mart logo? The original I6 language was good in defining the speediable images to {{ fairuse}} images, the new language simply justifies the mass speedying of otherwise legitimate images. While rationales should always be necessary it shouldn't be speediable, like {{ fairusereduce}} tagged images handled per Wikipedia's fair use policy are categorized, not just put to CSD. I still would suggest creating a template that simply categorizes other fair use images (with tags {{ DVDcover}}, {{ Albumcover}}, {{ tvscreenshot}}, {{ logo}} etc.) without rationales, helping people who want to write FU rationales to find those images easily and still makes uploaders aware of the problem. At least the I6 criterion language should be restored to the original, which was changed without consensus. feydey 00:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm still lost as to what the decision was/is. I've been tagging any FU image (from {{ fair use in}} to {{ albumcover}}) because I thought all fair use images uploaded after May 2006 needed FU rationale. Now I'm reading that is not the case. So what do we do about images with the more specific templates that do not have rationale? Ignore them? Every FU templates states that detailed FU rationale must be provided. I guess I'm just seeking clarification as I may have been incorrectly tagging images for the past month.-- NMajdan• talk 15:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I placed a db/G11 tag on New Zealand Disaster Assistance Response Team, and the creator responded with a {{ hangon}}.
Discussion ensued on the Talk:New_Zealand_Disaster_Assistance_Response_Team page. Still seems clearcut to me-- see bottom of the talk page.
So the question is, at what point do I change this to an AfD or a Prod? TIA, -- Mwanner | Talk 22:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
FYI: A discussion has taken place on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard under the heading "Consensus on vandalism user subpages" (<= that is a permalink reference) which argues for extension by consensus the application of CSD G3 (Pure vandalism) to user subpages that are advertised as being targets for invited vandalism. Regards --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 23:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Per What Wikipedia is Not Policy: ... not a free file host. -> File storage areas. Please upload only files that are used (or will be used) in encyclopedia articles or project pages; anything else will be deleted. If you have extra relevant images, consider uploading them to the Wikimedia Commons, where they can be linked from Wikipedia." (bold mine, should read article or project namespace) As such, any image uploaded that is not used in article or project namespace within 2 hours of its upload timestamp, and the image is deemed not to have encyclopedic value, shall fit under this criteria. If a user cannot upload an image and add the image within 2 hours of the upload, and the image appears to be UE, then they most likely are abusing the uploading capability. Further, users deemed to have uploaded a file that fits under this CSD criteria shall be warned with a template TBD. Uploading another file that results in this CSD deletion shall require a 1 week block of their uploading privileges. If it is not possible to just block upload privileges, a 1 week block on the account in general shall occur instead. If an image is tagged with this CSD, and by the time an administrator gets around to deleting it, it is included in the article or project namespace, the CSD template shall be removed. Warnings shall only be given by admins once the image is deleted. -- MECU≈ talk 00:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to propose Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline as a guideline to detail the necessary components of a fair use rationale. At present, it's kindof a moving target. Some pages have a detailed, bulleted rationale, while others have a one sentence "this picture identifies the subject". Patroling Category:All images with no fair use rationale, I've seen image pages that explicitly have something of a rationale that have been nominated for a speedy. So I would like for us to formalize what is required. I have also created Template:Fair use rationale that I am proposing we use as a template to assist users in creating an acceptable rationale. Please see Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline and the associated talk page to give your thoughts and ideas. BigDT 22:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
When an admin deletes an article with images through one of the normal deletion processes they don't necessarily delete the images (see, for example, this AfD, where the images remain). Sometimes they may be deleted in the spirit of A7 or IAR, but there's no policy or process basis that I can find to delete them, leading to some hesitancy. Such images could be listed at IfD as orphans and be deleted more slowly, but this requires extra time and effort from both the administrators handling deletion backlogs and reviewers at IfD. Instead, I propose to allow admins to speedy delete images from deleted articles.
The only counter-argument I can see is that images could be re-used in other articles, leading to disputes at AfD about whether to keep an image that might be useful elsewhere. That said, images on en-WP (as opposed to Commons) are often only categorized by license, meaning if one doesn't know the name of whatever image one is looking for, one wouldn't find it. Here's the current proposal:
I don't think this has any downsides, but people are suckers for their own ideas. Your thoughts?-- Kchase T 01:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
How is this useful? Aside from fair use concerns, unused images are pretty harmless. Many get moved to Commons eventually, where they hopefully find a happy and well-organized home. I don't think leaving them lying around actually hurts anything. Dragons flight 02:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem with this proposal is that it calls for overly subjective judgement on the part of sysops. One admin's idea of what constitutes "possible encyclopedic use" will vary greatly from that of another admin. That's why this sort of question should be posed to the community.
Image:TOC_Chad.jpg might seem like a clear-cut deletion candidate (and it almost certainly will be deleted), but suppose for a moment that
this image (which appears in the
Beard and
Full beard articles) had been uploaded for use in a vanity article about its subject. I certainly wouldn't trust a random admin (or any one person) to make the determination that it has encyclopedic use. —
David Levy
07:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I support the notion of allowing Speedy Deletion for Orphaned Images which reside on Wikipedia. My understanding is that image undeletion is supported now and is not that much more difficult than article undeletion. If the situation were still that images once gone are gone and must be re-uploaded, I would be opposed and ask for a higher bar for deletion. Further, the argument that an image might be useful in another context is valid, agreed, and I think a guideline would be good that before speedy deleting one brain cell be expended to consider if the image is generally useful vs. specifically useful ... i.e. useful to another article vs. useful only to the article being deleted. The majority of images I have been sending to IFD in the past couple of days were associated with articles that were deleted due to notability deficits. My thinking is that if the subject of an article is non-notable, a picture of that subject is equally non-notable. Images associated with articles deleted under other circumstances might well be more complex to determine broader utility. As a follow-on question — does anyone know how stringently the 'utility to other wikimedia projects' criterion is applied on Commons, how eager/willing they are at Commons to delete orphaned images? Regards --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 18:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually agree with many of the points raised above that my idea won't work. I'm not going to strike my comments, as this is still provoking a good and important discussion, but I just wanted to register that I have abandoned the proposal.-- Kchase T 20:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
There has been a discussion above whether CSD templates should have a Header or not. It has been proposed by BigDT that we can have it both ways with a template that allows you to insert a header or not, and even what that header says.
Copied from above = Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#CSD templates
Now as this tool will likely be used in all the CSD templates I wanted to check there were no issues before doing this and that there was consensus. Please say yay or nay to this solution, and particular bring up any problems that need to be solved. Cheers Lethaniol 16:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
So far everyone thinks it is a good idea - have converted Template:nn-warn to use this header format. Please check my work - and any suggestions would be welcomed. Lethaniol 16:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Dgies there is no edit warring going on, the vast majority of people that have talked about this - see other section above as well - do not want there to be a header - consensus has already been reached. Not to mention the fact that the Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings are going to soon remove all headings from such templates - see their tasks. So please can we change the default back to no heading. Lethaniol 23:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Right have added up the - Header versus no Header responses from this and the above section Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#CSD_templates. This includes people's thoughts before the on/off header was devised, as it is highly likely those in favour of a header would see that it should be on as standard and vice versa.
For Header: ≈Tulkolahten≈ Dgies J Di
Against Header: Lethaniol Fan-1967 ais523 EVula Chrislk02 Yuser31415 nae'blis WikiSlasher MER-C BigNate37
Do not care: BigDT
Am not sure: Bubba hotep
So that is basically - 3/10/2 - clear consensus for no header as standard and again not to push the point too much, WP:UW are also against. Anyone want to add their opinions/votes? Lethaniol 21:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Since the {{ drmspeedy}} template has been modified to only apply to the original creator, an anon IP or sockpuppet can now remove the tags as many times as they want. Ideas? Fan-1967 20:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Just to let people know, the flip-side of this is that people angry about having their articles speedied sometimes put tags on articles that don't deserve it ( example). A hard and fast policy or process that only an admin can remove a tag is probably not the best idea, but letting IPs and meatpuppets remove tags in general is (as the above discussion indicates) also not helpful. Frankly, IAR and common sense is the only balance I see between the two.-- Kchase T 22:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
It takes three extra edits, but you can always AfD an article (which can't be removed unless it's a clear speedy keep), and vote speedy delete right away. (which isn't really POINT because if you prod it, they'll just yank it, so you'll take it to AfD eventually anyway). Alternatively, hop on IRC and post something with "!admin" it, noting that someone keeps removing a speedy tag, and an admin will delete it ASAP even if the tag has been removed. -- Interiot 05:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
{{ drmspeedy}} shouldn't apply to an anon despeedying a newly-created page, even if it is a sockpuppet. On the other hand, edit warring over a speedy-delete tag is still edit-warring; it would seem to me to be grounds for an AN/I report, which can lead to a block much faster than a mere drmspeedy warning, especially if abusive sockpuppetry or vandalism is suspected. -- ais523 10:00, 20 December 2006 ( U T C)
I just wanted to chime in and say that if the drmspeedy template does not meet the situation appropriately, there is nothing wrong with writing a message by hand that gets the point across. It's called discussion, and it doesn't have to be friendly in every circumstance that doesn't include substituting a template. Of course, there's a line between a terse warning and harassment, and one must be aware of that when writing their own hand-crafted messages. Yes, it is better to have a standard template for a few different reasons, but in the mean time I don't see anything wrong with continuing on in the best interests of the project. BigNate37 (T) 16:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
On another note, this might reach a point where tagging an article for speedy deletion and then fighting to keep it there against the creator's intentions becomes more work than having it speedied through AfD, which defeats the purpose of CSD. Since removing an AfD notice without closing the AfD is a no-no, perhaps by extension the CSD policy should be tweaked such that only those qualified to respond to CSD tags (i.e. sysops) should be removing the CSD templates which were added in good faith—in other words, except in cases of vandalism, user conflict, violations of WP:POINT, etc.? I would say that the only time a non-admin should be removing good-faith CSD tags is if they're permitted to close them per WP:CSD, that is to say it's a seperate issue that shouldn't be confused into this one. BigNate37 (T) 16:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
CSD R2 is about "Redirects to the Talk:, User: or User_talk: space from the main article space"; however, the corresponding deletion template listed in the table is {{ db-rediruser}}, "CSD R2: Redirect to user page.", and I could not find any other one for other spaces. Does such a template exist, or should this one be modified or a new one created ? In particular, I have a bunch of redirects from main space to Talk: which should be listed for SD. Schutz 00:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd rather see a self rating implemented(every article should have some variables attached like thrustworthyness, joke , lie and vintage knowledge for example. readers who feel obliged to keep the wiki clean can then rate articles to their hearts content and others can choose if they like to filter according to those ratings by means of a slider that goes from commonly accepted to absolutely ridicullus, so readers can set theire own prefs.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ysvry ( talk • contribs)
I notice that G4 allows for the recreation of deleted content in user space. I have seen cases where deleted content was recreated on a user's primary user page appearingly to spite the will of the community. The first that comes to mind is User:List of marijuana slang terms which was used to display the deleted content of List of marijuana slang terms. Now I see the primary user page of User:Patchouli is displaying content from the deleted Veil fetishism article. I see such utilization of primary user pages as done to have these user pages become defacto articles. I understand editor's need to utilize user space for developmental purposes but I think this should be done in sub pages. I'd like to update the wording of G4 to reflect this logic and was wondering what the level of support for such a change was? ( → Netscott) 14:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Infoboxes can be quite extensive and contain a lot of information. However, it seems that having an infobox only or an infobox alongside rewording of infobox content as the only text for an article doesn't seem to be representative of a reasonable article. Such an article couldn't really be deleted under, for instance, A1 or A3 (short+no context or no content) as the infobox provides the context and information in it can be extensive. Would you agree that A1 and A3 are not suitable for speedy deleting such articles? (example Dugway High School) --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 20:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Please see Template talk:No rationale. I started a discussion there that no one seems to be interested in. Basically, CSD I5 originally applied only to images tagged with {{ fairuse}} or {{ Non-free fair use in}} but somehow the interpretation has been broadened to all fair use tags -- I don't remember any discussion on this -- but IMHO the wording is still confusing. Thanks. howch e ng { chat} 00:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to propose that the following criteria be added:
This comes up often, as people write their own bio and include an image, or about a company and include a logo, etc. — Mets501 ( talk) 20:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I really miss a db-bio for images. Frigo 01:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm still on a learning curve with new page CSD patrol, and I just started using the template tags recommended in the CSD boxes for informing the creator of the page. But I was a bit surprised and alarmed that the automatic messages from the couple of templates i just tried out 1) assume that the CSD nominator has made a totally valid CSD nomination, when in fact it this may be challenged and the nominator may be in error and 2) the message consequently goes against the spirit of WP:BITE which as I understand, is regarded as especially important for new page patrol. There should at least be a mention that the tagger may be wrong and that the tagging is challengeable. Furthermore, the tone of the messages is a bit too aggressive, I feel. (In the particular case I was just involved in, the user was creating obviously nonsense/possibly attack pages, so I'm not withdrawing the tags as they're somewhat appropriate, but what about more innocent newbies?)
I haven't looked at all the templates yet but here are the examples of the templates I just tried out:
How do others feel about this issue? Bwithh 02:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC) "The deletionist with a heart of gold"
We need a CSD for templates which are duplicates of other templates which serves no distinct purpose and/or serves the same purpose and has no transclusions. An example of this is Template:Vandlised, a near-duplicate of Template:Protected template. It has no difference, was created two days ago by a user with no edit summary, and has no links. Thoughts? -- Renesis ( talk) 00:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The "Patant copyright violation" bit has a field for entrance of the URL where the image was taken from. Now, If I know the image to be Patant copyright violation because I know where it comes from in a book, not a webpage, and I know that it was not legitimatly tagged as all rights released, what tag am I supposed to use? Thanatosimii 21:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
As a result of Template:Kaboohoo Network, I suggest this:
Pages which exist which solely as promotion for a company, product, group or service and which would need to be fundamentally rewritten in order to become encyclopedic to become articels or templates which are used solely to link to illegitimate external sites or are useful only on pages which also meet this criterion. Note that simply having a company, product, group or service as its subject does not qualify an article for this criterion.
Basically that template was a collection of internal links, all of which were SPAMs. The "illegitimate external link" thing should work for stuff like links to copyright violating lyrics sites, or the notorious 'AE SPAMmers. 68.39.174.238 19:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
News media photos are not acceptable for fair use unless the photo itself is famous or iconic. (See WP:FAIR#Counterexamples #5.) Search the image namespace for something like "news.yahoo.com" [8], "Associated Press" [9], or "Reuters" [10] and you will find a gracious plenty news media photos that cannot possibly be considered fair use. The way that news media photographers put food on their table is by selling their photograph. When Wikipedia uses the photo without paying royalties, we are using the image in exactly the way that they are trying to sell the photo and because of potential downstream use, it has a substantial "effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." There's no way that a media photo can be fair use for the purpose of illustrating the subject of the photo ... and these things are constantly getting re-uploaded. I would like to propose that we make it a CSD. At least that would keep us from having to go through the same WP:SNOW process of running them through IFD. -- BigDT 04:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Please take a look at WP:IFD, particularly at Image:Napier-Red-Tape.jpg, Image:Iraqi insurgents celebrate while riding through the streets of Falluja, May 1, 2004.jpg, and some of the images after it. I think that these discussions really underscore why we need an unambiguous policy about it. We obviously can't use these things, but I understand why some people are upset - the prohibition on media photos is pretty well hidden and if you've spent a lot of time working on an article, you don't like suddenly having your pictures taken away. I would strongly suggest that we move this along and come up with some text that will work and be mutually agreeable. I am linking to this discussion on Wikipedia talk:Fair use. -- BigDT 07:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm confused, in that Wikipedia:Fair use#Non-compliance says "Images that do not comply with this policy within 48 hours after notification to the editor who uploaded the image will be deleted". Older images, are given 7 days. So the only way of toughening things is to allow deletion even faster. But, I don't think that's what anyone is asking for. Also, is misuse of press photos worse than other fair use problems? I'm rather unclear why IFD is used at all. I thought the standard for bad fair use, is to tag the image, and have any discussion on its talk page. -- Rob 14:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I like this proposal. Images generated by media agencies shouldn't be on Wikipedia, except in cases of unrepeatable events (i.e. Elian Gonzalez). So the wording should be carefully scripted so as to permit fair use in 1 very exacting case.
This wording would allow things like Elian Gonzalez while disallowing the random usage of photos (like the celebrating iraqi insurgents). As an aside, though, I want to be absolutely certain this CSD has specific wording that says it has nothing to do with agency publicity photos. I think it needs to be very clear this CSD has nothing to do with publicity photos.-- Jeff 19:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
(de-indenting) Technically, they are copyright violations; and copyright violations are already speediable under G-12. ~ ONUnicorn( Talk| Contribs) problem solving 15:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The various versions of {{ db-nn}} ({{ db-bio}}, {{ db-band}}, etc.) all contain the wording: "does not assert the importance or significance of the subject" Even though the link behind the "importance or significance" phrase is to Wikipedia:Notability, the fact is that Wikipedia's definition of notability is not, in fact, a measure of "importance or significance." It is a measure of whether a subject has received significant public attention. This causes issues for new editors, who are frequently arguing that a subject is important or significant, when the actual problem is that the subject is practically unknown. Many may argue that a person or organization's activity is in an important area (because it's groundbreaking in some way, or addresses a significant problem), but the template doesn't tell them that Wikipedia requires that the subject be in some way well-known. Is there some way this could be better phrased? Fan-1967 20:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
How can someone with 3 honorary doctorates and a former chairman of an ivy league college Department of Biology and is a fellow of the AAAS be nonnotable? --Filll 02:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC) John Tyler Bonner is the page. It is just a stub. Much more is possible if you will let me work on this. This guy had an amazing career. he got a PhD at the same time as serving in the air force! As near as I can tell he got it from harvard in 2 or 3 years, with the war in between. He is a very central figure in popularizing evolution. Many visiting professorships around the world and a long long list of honors aside from being a fellow and 3 honorary doctorates aside from his earned doctorate. And still very active at an advanced age. not notable?
Speaking as the editor in question who started this article on John Tyler Bonner, I have had this happen a couple of times. It makes me want to build an article in private until it is very full before I put it on WP. Some tiny stubs have no problem, like those of a hamlet with 4 houses someplace and 2 sentences describing the community. Others like this are attacked immediately. I had another one that had 10-15 links to it from other pages already on WP and the guy had commercial collaborations with several big name musicians plus was a professor and a radio show host and had been involved in several art projects around the world. And still the judgement was nonnotable. And 3 people on the talk page as well as me claiming this guy was important and notable. I was stunned. I figured it was a slam-dunk. How hard do I have to fight here ? Good heavens.-- Filll 07:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Filll, if I'm reading correctly it seems that it was a slight violation of policy for you to remove the speedy tag, even though you left the {{ hangon}} tag. Also I tried to find the source of the actual words of the editor that you quote from above, but did not succeed. I agree that it's puzzling he would not have perceived the notability of J.T.Bonner based on what you wrote. His comment that you found to be dripping with sarcasm is almost a literal quote from policy, so maybe he felt you were misunderstanding procedure by removing the speedy tag from an article you had created yourself. His tag was put on the very first version of the article, which was extremely stubby, and maybe that was his only evaluation of the content. (He may have felt that only the reviewing administrator, and not he himself, should remove the tag, so he wasn't going to do a new evaluation). Finally, I believe this is a page for policy debate. What are your recommendations for the future? EdJohnston 04:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to make it clear that what I gave is not an isolated example. This is slightly less clear cut, being an article about a commercial firm, and some of it does seem like advertising, anthough not blatently so:
Wine-Searcher.com provides a Google-like search for wines across the price lists of wine merchants, wineries, and wine auction houses world wide. Wine-Searcher started in 1999 and these days lists more than 7500 wine retailers price lists with over 2,000,000 pricing entries (as of July, 2006).
Wine-Searcher opened up the wine trade by providing full price transparency within wine retailing. Traditionally the pricing policies of retailers for older wines, and their availability and distribution of those wines, was hidden from all those outside of a very small group of international wine brokers. The prices charged by different retailers varied widely even within small regions.
Since 2002, Wine-Searcher has become the main reference source used by the wine trade to establish market value. It has also become more common for high-end wine enthusiasts to also act as collectors/traders of older vintages, that is, as well as purchasing wines for storage and later drinking many enthusiasts now also sell some of their older wines back to the market.
Wine-Searcher provides a free service for the casual wine drinker, and a comprehensive “Professional Version” for $29.95 (USD) per year. Other functionality includes a detailed breakdown of the world’s wine regions, a directory of wine stores by region, rankings of wines by search frequency, and the ability for collectors to advertise their excess wines for sale.
This was marked simply (WP:CSD#A7). It was by a different editor. Note the 1st sentence ofthe 3rd paragraph. This is as clear an assertion of notability as can be imagined. I doubt that this organization has the international significance that JB had, and I would certainly understand putting a tag on asking for removal of some of the advertising content, but not as a speedy, since there is objective content as well. But to mark nn (no assertion of notability) on an article saying "main reference source used by the [ ] trade"? I would ask for verifiability, but some people who place these nn tags do not read the articles. I think nn is too inherently controversal a category for speedy. DGG 22:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This just came through on wikipedia-l. Nominators and deleters are asked to take especial care to remember that not everything is on Google. And when some users are using a semiautomatic deletion bot to delete one entry every twenty seconds for an hour, it's easy to see many articles getting zapped inadvertently - David Gerard 14:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
From: "Frederick Noronha" email address removed To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Entries for deletion.... issues from the Third World Hi all, I'm from India, a contributor to the Wikipedia. In recent times, the 'mortality' of new Wikipedia entries seems to be higher than usual. While one can understand the need for abundant caution, it's also important to allow for a diversity of concerns and issues in this space. Should we presume that because an initiative is not very visible in cyberspace (okay, we are under-digitised societies!) that it is not prominent or noteworthy? See as one example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikalp This is a campaign against censorship of documentary film in India, one which has the participation of about 250 documentary film-makers. There must be some way out. Your suggestions would be welcome. FN -- FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please) http://fn.goa-india.org http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://www.goa-india.org http://feeds.goa-india.org/index.php
I'm creating a category for generic fair use tags, so we can have an explanatory link in the policy. It will be Category:Wikipedia:Generic fair use tags. I think discussion should take place here, though, so it can attract the proper audience. In my view, the only tags that belong in this category are those that give such weak justification that it can never be enough justification for any image. My reasoning? We're defining this category for the purpose of speedily deleting any image marked with such a tag, with no further rationale. Despite what WP:FU says, a lot of the time a fair use tag comes pretty close to explaining the full rationale for the use of a non-free image, although sometimes it doesn't. But a template like {{ Non-free fair use in}} is never enough without further justification. Although certain templates like {{ tv-screenshot}} are very widely used, and generally require further explanation, they don't always, so we shouldn't be deleting those images (let alone, speedily without further discussion). Mango juice talk 16:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, please see WP:FURG. I really think that if we're going to expand the list of images that can be speedied for no rationale, we need to specify exactly what needs to be on a rationale. -- BigDT 02:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Can we have a time rule on the notification, or what about stubs? There was an AFD at Nullarbor (demo party) It didn't appear notable from the first edit, so it was AFDd. Can we get a ruling that allows articles that are starting to have a chance without having to waste effort on an AFD? I was thinking, that you should give someone more than 2 minutes before AFDing an article. I then thought about stubs. Are all of them required to assert notability or else they are speedy deleted? The deltionists out there could just start picking Stubs and delete them just on their own whims, because they fail A7? So I thought I'd pick a stub. Just one at random, so I've got a t=0, but still Tiki fails A7. I think a7 needs some modification. Personally, I don't think that it should be a7 should be speedy worthy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mckaysalisbury ( talk • contribs) 21:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC).
Would it be possible to put the "speedy" template on the Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion page's infobox. Either under the "speedy" category, or under the "Redirect" category? The other article speedies are listed, but this one isn't. There isn't an easy way to find the {{db-r1}} template! SkierRMH 01:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I've noticed an unfortunate problem on Wikipedia. There are a fair number of free images on Wikipedia that are not used anywhere on Wikipedia (articles, user pages, talk pages, etc.). Yet, no one seems to care about them enough to move them to the Wikimedia Commons, often because they have been made obsolete by a PNG or SVG version.
Because Wikipedia is not an orphanage, I propose that free images not used anywhere on Wikipedia should be tagged with {{ subst:ord}} and deleted after a certain period of time, say a week or a month.
I am very much open to other ideas. — Remember the dot ( t) 22:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I understand your arguments now and I agree with you. I've updated {{ Orphan image}} to be more clear about its use. — Remember the dot ( t) 23:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your replies. I reverted all the changes associated with this discussion that I could, and listed requests for the other changes that need to be made (i.e. deleting categories and templates, and moving a template back to where it was). — Remember the dot ( t) 00:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that many users remove the speedy deletion template when placing the {{ hangon}} template. Perhaps we should include an additional warning that says something like "...but do not remove the template" in all CSD templates. I think it would clear up confusion and reduce the need for the {{ drmspeedy}} series of templates. John Reaves 09:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I've spent about 30 minutes trying to figure out how to deal with an image that is claimed as a logo but probably is not; the source given is very vague (no URL). I suggest changing a phrase in "Images/Media 7. Invalid fair-use claim" from
to
Assuming that this is the correct procedure. ✤ JonHarder talk 23:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I've had this in my userspace for a while, and I've used it a few times, but I figure that it's about time that I put it forward here:
User:Ryulong/MySpace describes situations where articles about non-notable individuals or groups include their MySpace page in the article, which may or may not be considered an assertion of notability. I have used User:Ryulong/db-myspace to tag such articles a few times, but it could be used in the wider area of deletion tags.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍) 00:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
So? - Amarkov blah edits 04:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
This proposal reminds me that I recently declined to speedy a rejected proposal that technically met G7, but had relevant talk page discussion about why the proposal was rejected. Is an exception to G7 necessary for this, or are other admins declining those speedies anyway?-- Kchase T 12:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion#Prerequisites says: "Also note that even if a policy fails to gain consensus, it is often useful to retain it as a historical record, for the benefit of future editors." The 'rejected' tag should categorise all these rejected proposals anyway, and sometimes someone might gain some inspiration by brainstorming using all these rejected proposals. It does help to see where the limits are if the rejected stuff is also visible. Carcharoth 17:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I've expanded the admin guidelines as follows: "Please also check to see if there is ongoing discussion in progress on the talk page, and assess whether the talk page discussion should be moved or archived to a new location." - this follows from the reasoning that there is sometimes useful content on talk pages. Of course, most stuff deleted under CSD doesn't have talk pages, but that doesn't mean that talk pages shouldn't be checked when they exist. Carcharoth 17:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It is not uncommon for articles to be speedied as re-creations of deleted content, even when the original article was only speedied the first time (i.e., it never passed through XfD or any other formal process). Would it be OK to reword G4 to make it very clear that it does *not* apply to anything that has not passed through a formal deletion discussion? -- Visviva 06:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Can we add other "unremarkable" items to this list, such as "objects and entities".
I'm looking at a speedy delete request for a fairly unremarkable object (a guitar model which has a particular given name because some musician uses it), but although articles on unremarkable "people, groups, companies and web content" which don't appear to establish importance are listed in A7, "objects" and "other kinds of unremarkable things" don't. Is this an omission? FT2 ( Talk | email) 11:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, it's worth reminding people about criterion G3 (pure vandalism). An article about someone's pet, to me at least, is pure vandalism: I can't imagine that I would stretch WP:AGF so far as to imagine that such a worthless contribution would not be vandalism. Mango juice talk 03:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Some people have been taking contested speedies directly to DRV. It is obvious that is a speedy is contested in good faith, reasonable doubt will exist, and the speedy designation should, in retrospect, not have been used. Not that the designator was necessarily wrong to list it, for it might have seemed obvious, but once it is contested it is no longer obvious. (There are also speedies contested in bad faith, just to slow things down, and I agree that if it is really clear that it is just that, it can still be deleted) Further, not all contested speedies necessarily need AfD, because the article might have been so much improved immediately that there would be no reason to delete it at all. But I think the wording needs to be changed, perhaps to say that after a speedy is contested, if someone still wants to delete it, the next step is prod or AfD. (unless there is an indisputable reason why that is not appropriate) . DGG 23:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Relevant policy for undeletions is WP:UNDEL, which states:
If an article was speedy deleted, this may have been done in error. You may ask any administrator to undelete an article if it has been obviously deleted out of process (no justification under the deletion policy). See the "Exceptions" section below. An article undeleted in this way may be listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion if it still appears to be deletable under the deletion policy. If you cannot persuade an administrator that the deletion was in error, try Wikipedia:Deletion review.
Note that this is not simply Rossami's "any good-faith request", it requires an out-of-process action by the deleting admin. Since most admin's are loath to overturn another admin's action and the deleting admins usually stick to their prior call, speedies tend to end up at DRV. So the "contested speedies should get a full discussion" is certainly fulfilled under the current setup. The issue here is mostly one of status quo bias: Existing articles are not deleted unless there is a consensus to do so (ca. 2/3–3/4 under the old vote-counting scheme), deleted articles are not restored unless there is majority in favor. I'm not convinced that this bias is detrimental to the project, looking at the quality of speedied articles that are nominated at DRV on a daily basis. There's more of a problem coming from the fact that AfD's create a short window of high scrutiny for some very obscure articles, so the five days listed usually create the best opportunity for an article to be improved. Of course that's something that doesn't happen if the article is deleted or protected. ~ trialsanderrors 11:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
I want to amplify and clarify my previous statement in two respects. I agree that if there is a substantial claim that a speedied article does not in fact meet the speedy criteria, sending it to AfD is a Good Thing™. However, I believe that it should be up to the deleting admin to make that call, rather than creating a substantive process. Secondly, I want to point out that DRV is quite willing to overturn improper speedies (as opposed to AfD's which are rarely overturned from Delete to Keep). I just don't see the problem that DGG claims to. Eluchil404 12:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Ugh, what a mess. I used to find my way around templates much faster, but somehow now I can't find in which page the {{ nothanks-web}} and related have been put, so I am bringing it here. Templates like that one must have been created thinking in the 14 days copyright timeframe, where an editor had 2 weeks to prove he is the owner of copyright. Right now, that kind of templates is being used when G12 is applied (blatant copyright violation). The instructions in the template state that the user should make a note in the article talk page to confirm he has the copyright permission. However, since the articles are being speedy deleted, this causes new users to create talk pages of deleted articles that will never be read. Can we have a full review of templates with similar problems ({{ nothanks-sd}} comes to my mind) and consider a new approach to this issue? Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 19:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
As you may have noticed, the criteria for speedy deletion for images or media are different to all the other criteria in that many of them include time delays, periods during which an image or media page must be tagged with some template or another for a certain number of days before the image can be deleted. This is in contrast to the criteria for, say, articles, which allow immediate deletion (hence "speedy deletion"). The reasons for including these time delays were historically sound: before June last year, it was not possible to undelete image or media files once they had been deleted. However, we now have this feature, which means there is no longer a good reason for having time delays in the criteria.
I propose that:
Discuss. -- bainer ( talk) 00:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
{{
category redirect}}
and leave a clue for others so the error doesn't get perpetuated, repeated, or become contentious. These things can all wait, as they aren't out in main space readily available to the customer-readers. <Shrug>. <g> I'm not the emperor of the universe, alas! Can we eliminate A7 as a criterion for speedy deletion? Of all the criteria, this one seems the most subjective, and the most error-prone. Many A7s will qualify under other criteria; the rest should be prod'd or go to AfD. The definition of notability is fairly fuzzy, and the A7 criterion is just asking administrators to make judgement calls on their own which should be made by the community at large instead. Argyriou (talk) 20:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me propose the following simple change: restrict A7 to articles created in the past X days, where fewer than Y editors have contributed to the article. Some of the problems would still remain, but it would force us to take a more careful look at any article that had been edited broadly, or had existed on Wikipedia for a long time. Most speedy tags that I've seen are applied almost right away, but every so often, I find a very old article with an A7 tag on it. A lot of times, those articles have already survived a round of speedy deletion requests, so at the least, classifying them as A7 should be considered controversial. After an article has been around for a few days, it's been through the gauntlet of NP patrollers, and if it has passed, we should probably think twice about deleting it without any debate. The more important restriction, though, is the Y editors restriction: overwhelmingly, the articles that need to be deleted are only substantially edited by 1, sometimes two editors (and sometimes 3 or 4 if you count IPs). False positives may also fit this mold, but a lot of the worst false positives don't. Values for X and Y were difficult for me to choose -- perhaps 30 days and (fewer than) 4 editors? Mango juice talk 21:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The original proposal which created A7 passed with less than 75% of the vote; the arguments against passing it were stong enough that a responsible administrator would close such a discussion as "no consensus". The explanation of A7 states that the article may be speedied if there is
“ | No reason to think that the subject is remarkable and no claim that it is notable. | ” |
The current wording of A7 makes eligible for speedy deletion "An article about a real person, group of people, band, club, company, or web content that does not assert the importance or significance of its subject.". That wording makes the standard less clear, and more prone to abuse. However, as I've seen people arguing (or acting) that articles qualify as A7 when they clearly do not meet the criterion, I believe it is better to eliminate the criterion altogether. Argyriou (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
How about changing "does not assert the importance or significance of its subject" to "is unquestionably a topic that cannot meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines". There needs to be something in there so that an article about a high school kid can be deleted. -- BigDT 02:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I dislike constructions that elevate actions that require an agent, such as questioning the notability (or lack thereof) of a topic, to the level of objective judgements such as "unquestionable". What's unquestionable for the goose, etc. This is not a trival objection: judging the notability of a subject per
WP:N can often be a non-trivial process. How many times have we seen articles rescued from the pits of AfD because the nominators mistakenly considered the subject to be non-notable? Second, the statement "cannot meet Wikipedia's notability guideline" is falsified if (in the future) these guidelines are relaxed. Furthermore, the subject can in principle become notable by, for example, doing great things, not to mention that even apparently minor actors and events can accrue notability in the historical view. The guidelines are also not self-justifying. It would be better to state what quality (notability) the article lacks, and point to the method one might use to judge the quality (notability guidelines).
To crystallise my objections, I counterpropose to change the phrase to "does not provide any evidence for the notability of its subject". It is easy to check whether evidence is provided or not. The quality of the evidence may be sorely lacking, but that can be judged at AfD. — Kaustuv CHAUDHURI 03:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
There are distinct problems as far as New Pages Patrol is concerned in A7 is removed or altered too much. At the moment, A7 is very much a fence at the top of the cliff stopping the ambulances at the bottom (AfD and prod) becoming so overloaded as to be unusable. I'd say that 10-20% of newly created articles are vanity articles or otherwise easily fail A7. Remove or alter A7 too much, and all of those articles - potentially hundreds per day - will haveto be deleted via other means. To solve this problem, I would like to suggest that perhaps a time limit be placed on A7, rather than any significant changes to the spirit of the wording. This could be achieved by simply making it something like "This article is less than one month old and does not assert the importance or significance of its subject". If it can survive scrutiny for a month, chances are someone at least thought it was worth keeping, so should go through the AfD process. Grutness... wha? 03:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
As much as I'd like to be amiable and think up a new rule that everybody can agree on, the essential goal of A7 is to delete non-notable topics, and notability is subjective. Our guidelines often find exceptions at AfD, and our standards are constantly shifting. Often a claim of non-notability in AfD is met with vehement and legitimate denial. I once rescued an article ( Chan's algorithm) that someone repeatedly tried to delete as non-notable despite publication and wide notability in the field of computational geometry, variously claiming that it had no context or didn't have enough Google hits. You need multiple views to resolve notability in any meaningful way, and if AfD can't handle the load, we'll have to find some other way. Speedy deletion and notability don't mix. Deco 04:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I went and looked again at User:Mangojuice/a7. First off, I noticed that many of the A7s would probably qualify under G11. There seems to be one big defect that many of the non-notable vanity articles have, and that's a lack of source material. Articles may qualify under A7 by saying "Joe Blow is a champion cocaine snorter, and won the Lower Manhattan Snorting Championships in 1992.", but not actually providing any proof.
So, as I see it, the problems are:
So, instead of a speedy delete for A7, we create something like {{ prod}}, where in the case of a probably non-notable person, we require someone to add sources to support the assertion of notability. If no source is provided within one week, it gets deleted. Unlike prod, the proposed {{ show source}} would not be removable (in the same sense an AfD tag is not removable). The template would do all the category and date things which prod does, so that admins could look for articles which hadn't provided sources and delete them without going to AfD.
Hopefully, a mechanism like this would take care of the four problems I listed above. I think we'd see a lot of band articles deleted under G11 instead, but that doesn't bother me so much. Argyriou (talk) 17:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)