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Something ought to be said about throwing WP:whatever at people.
Probably WP:V is most abused, since many things are verifiable only with great difficulty — and people throwing around WP:V know this. (perhaps my source is a college textbook that I sold back to the campus bookstore, and now I don't remember the title or ISDN number — am I to buy and re-read books until I find the source???)
WP:NPOV is another one that gets severely abused, though at least that one is easier to defend against.
AlbertCahalan 09:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't have a section for related links so I'll post this on talk. Wikipedia:No angry mastodons covers informal ways to resolve disputes and encourage polite collaboration. Durova 23:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I am starting to think this policy is suboptimal. Don't get me wrong, civility is much nicer than nastiness. But the thing is, profound frustration is possible even in cases where all parties remain civil. And it's certainly possible to be petty or condescending from behind the veneer of civil language. I just don't think civility is a high enough standard.
Users should be friendly to one another. It wouldn't kill us to be generally positive in tone when talking with people who disagree with us. I like to think I would be really, really surprised if someone were to get angry or frustrated over something I've written on a discussion page.
Every sentence you write in a heated discussion will affect how the reader sees you and your ideas. When you write something to score points on someone in an argument (rather than to explain your point of view, or to try to ask the right questions to understand the other point of view, which is what you ought to be doing), people pick up on that. And they either lose respect for you, or they start doing the same thing.
Ideally, a discussion is a search for enlightenment--about your own views, as well as others. And, of course, an attempt on all parts to make a better encyclopedia. Anything less makes Wikipedia less than it could be. (This means you, smartypants.)
Seriously--if you can't maintain an honestly friendly attitude while writing to someone, it means you're frustrated, impatient, or ticked off. It happens. What is one to do? Well, it depends.
Despite the slightly silly language, I really am quite serious about this. People with good humor and a friendly tone are shining examples to the rest of us--somewhere deep inside, we know that--and the effect they have on mobs of opinionated people is like magic.
As long as civility is our standard, that's all we'll get. If we can bring ourselves to ask one another to Be friendly, Wikipedia will be pleasanter--and more productive. Jorend 22:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I like to start an article about civility. It was an important concept in the history of Europe and humanism. It surprises me that there isn't an article about this topic. Civility has to do with discipline, etiquette, living in the city, civilized conversation ( Stanley versus Livingstone: 'Dr. Livingstone, I presume?'). It was derived from Roman and Greek antiquity.
I have found a similar topic: Civic virtue. So a special article on civility is not necessary.-- Daanschr 16:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I keep making a small section on the South Park page about how some people Critisize South Park, and people keep reverting it, what is the problem? http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=South_Park&diff=56852774&oldid=56852519 I think this is a perfectly fine section of it. People need to know about these kinds of things, and I am staying 100% neutral with my opinions, im just laying down the FACTS of what other people believe.
Indeed. Take a gander at these words of wisdom: [1] - Zero Talk 09:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I had an editor admonish me today: you should not be refactoring the talk page when you are the target of incivility. Is this correct? -- ScienceApologist 01:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
It generally isn't a good idea to go editing someone else's offensive words if those words are directed at you. The reason is that the original writer is likely to take even more severe offense at your editing than you did at the words themselves. So what you end up creating is an escalation of offensiveness rather than a defusing of the situation. -- FOo 06:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Simple, remove the offensive content, but leave a note saying you did and a diff to the offensive edit so people can see what you have removed. HighInBC 06:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Is incivility just words? Or actions also? If an editor annoys another with an action (eg placing a counterargument between the lines of your talkpage comment, or rearanges your comments or re-titles them). Then makes 200 of the same actions in the week - is that not uncivil? It seems the only solution in that possibly hypothetical situation is to have a will of iron and to stay frosty. Matlee 11:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this sort of behaviour could fall under WP:Point? HighInBC 06:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
repetitively labels me as "uncivil" & deletes every comment & complaint that I write, particularly if I write about Scott.
So, I've decided to write about it here.
Shall Scott delete this as well??
Is there some law against wiki improving??
If not, then why delete my comments,
& my pages??
Hopiakuta 06:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, regardless of whether it had been Scott or some other puppet who had deleted my page, how may I have it revived??
Rather than having it deleted, I would have preferred
discussion regarding its improvement.
Thank You.
Hopiakuta 06:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
from the article: "There is a case where Wikipedia as a whole is not especially respectful of contributions, since anyone can edit freely." <-- could someone explain or re-write this sentence. I do not understand it. -- JWSchmidt 21:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I am looking for a little guidance here. Let's say that group x says group y is supported by the Communist Party, and a link is provided to where the group makes the argument. Would it also be okay to include links to the Communist Party's website if they substantiate group x's claim for the sake of verifiability? -- 146.145.70.200 21:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This isn't a policy. It doesn't read like one, and it doesn't actually state any policy.
Anthere and I started the page on meta. It was a discussion page about what to do about patterns of editing we saw, oh, about three years ago. The discussion isn't very relevant today, because Wikipedia is a very different place.
I've boldly changed the tag. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 22:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, let's begin the discussion. I concur with UninvitedCompany. This page consists of advice and guidelines. If anything, we should have a policy that says only "Participate in a respectful and civil way", and from there link to a page of guidelines for how to apply that policy to your daily editing. — GT 08:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I also note that we have Wikipedia:Etiquette which is better (marginally) than this. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 20:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
In response to your first concern, I think it is standard practice to explain the reasoning behind a merge tag on the discusion page, if such an explanation is here then I must have missed it. Very often people throw a tag there and leave, I am not implying that is the case here, but I saw no discussion taking place here. Nothing I did was not reversable and I do not think it an uncivil act of me, please take my word I was trying to improve the encyclopedia.
As for your second concern, yes I do beleive that the ability to tell new people that civility is a rule and not a suggestion is very important to keeping order. Wikipedia is growing at a tremendous rate right now and we need to remain civil more than ever before. HighInBC 06:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Should the use of all caps be considered being uncivil? Unless absolutely necessary for formatting, style, or faithful reproductions, using ALL CAPS often means shouting and shouting is not civil. Example: “This is NOT correct.” (Unnecessary use of caps, facts can still be communicated well without the emphasis.) -- 70.240.190.133 21:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the merge tag, please explain your reason behind the proposed merge. HighInBC 06:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I see. The seperation of the 2 pages seems to me to be based on the idea that while civility is policy, etiquette is a guideline. I has always seen it as an extension to the civility policy, but not a mandatory one. A place for suggested practices that perhaps should not be enforced strictly.
An alternative solution to merging them may be to transfer/edit material between the two after acheiving consensus. Of course making any structural or stylistic changes to improve either would be a boon to wikipedia aswell.
What do you think about those ideas? HighInBC 21:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Excellent, I am glad you invited more people into this discussion. HighInBC 22:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
And if that is what consensus determines then that is what should be done. But consensus is far. We have only three opinions on the subject of the merge. HighInBC 23:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I am starting to realize GT that our ideas are not totally in oposition.
You seem to be talking about a smaller policy in regards to civility which is restricted to non arbritrary rules, and then another page that encompasses the less than mandatory, harder to define nuances of being good to each other. Correct me if I am misinterpreting.
Where I am suggesting that content be moved between the two to make it acceptable to consensus and keeping the respective status of each on as it is.
The only real difference would be that perhaps in your scenario WP:Etiquette would have a different name. I am not opposed to it being names something along the lines of Wikipedia:Suggestions on how to be civil.
Hmmmm? HighInBC 23:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
There probably does need to be a distinction made between a Civility policy and a set of Etiquette guidelines. I wouldn't merge them, but they do need to be made clearer. One thing that is worth mentioning is that the use of diplomatic language can be done in an aggressive way. In other words, the spirit of the discussion is as important as the words used. Carcharoth 01:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
And looking more closely, the etiquette page covers far more than just being civil (or at least it should). Definitely do not merge. Being civil is effectively just saying "be nice". Etiquette is a series of examples and rules. What to do in "x" situation. Carcharoth 01:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether we need a policy about civility, but we definitely need a policy about incivility, and, for now, this is it. I think that we also need a guideline about how to be as nice as possible, and, currently, that is Wikipedia:Etiquette. I think that there's a lot of content that should be shuffled between the two pages right now, but I think that we need two separate ones. JYolkowski // talk 01:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to toss in my agreement with Hiding's succinct description of the policy-guideline relationship that should be extended towards this merge discussion. I'd also like to underline Carcharoth's point with respect to Hiding's: etiquette is a list of procedures that apply to specific situations (which constitutes a guideline) whereas civility is a behavioural requirement (which is a policy). Thus, I support the shuffling of content to support these definitions and oppose the merge of the two. Hopefully my two cents helps to evolve the consensus or lack thereof, however I don't plan to actively participate in the merge proposal proceedings so leave me a note on my talk page if you want my attention regarding this comment. BigNate37 (T) 20:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
This is not generally how merges are done. Typically we vote, explaining rationale if opposing:
The merge tag has been on the article for three weeks and a total of ten people have made a clear statement one way or the other regarding a merge. My tally is: seven opposed and three in favor of merging. Thus consensus is no merge. On the other hand, there have been some suggestions for additions/revisions to the policy (see previous sections). These can easily be pursued here. In the meantime, I will remove the merge tag. Sunray 18:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I was notified that my warnings about WP:3RR violate this policy. Could someone confirm or deny that for me? Thanks, Ansell 08:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
In the debate above under the heading "Policy --> essay," GT suggested a positive statement of the policy: "Participate in a respectful and civil way." I think we should add this as the basic statement of the policy. Thus the policy would state the expectations of what users should do, rather than only what they should not do. As I said above, I think that the elaboration currently in the policy (e.g., "being rude, insensitive or petty makes people upset and prevents Wikipedia from working properly...) is fine to give background to those who want more information. However, we need a clear statement of what the policy expectations are. Comments? Sunray 20:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
This issue was raised in the WP:BLP Talk page but is relevant throughout WP space - I think we have a fairly clear consensus that sarcasm should never be used anywhere in WP space including edit summaries, except in article space where it is duly quoted with a reliable source. I am therefore adding it here as an example of incivility. If anyone disagrees, please discuss here. Thanks, Crum375 12:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Please don't be silly. This isn't some police state where thought can be a crime. Sarcasm doesn't often help a discussion because it tends to be narrow and full of logical holes. It is rarely, if ever, uncivil however. Codifying such things is just really very unfortunate and won't actually solve anything. It would be deeply unfortunate if we were suggesting that someone should be blocked if they are sarcastic. - Splash - tk 23:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It is not fine to list as an example since it is not an example of incivility. It's an example of a choice of a words that is likely to deprecate a course of action, sure, but that doesn't make it any more uncivil than me saying "don't do that". It is also not disruptive; the notion that it is is really pretty off the road. WP:CIVIL urges us not to be rude, it does not tell us what forms of 'speech' we may and may not use, and does not (should not) try to prescribe the manner and tone of everything anyone says. If people don't understand the difference between something like "oh yeah, because that'd be great, not" and "you are an idiot" then probably there is no helping them. Certainly telling me that I cannot say the former is just really pretty unhealthy. - Splash - tk 09:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I've posted a note at the Village Pump, to see if we can get some broader input here. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
While it is rude technically I think you have to have pretty think skin to call it uncivil. No I do not consider all rude things to be uncivil. I mean popping gum is rude, I wouldnt call someone uncivil because they did it. Its bordering as the person said above on nursery school rules. The sad part is that many people resort to sarcasm to avoid being uncivil. I mean how many times can you tell someone you do not agree before a sarcastic comment comes out. I think people are not realizing the context of why and when people use sarcasm. Also calling it uncivil is going to create a giant mess of new evidence and WP:PAIN postings etc. The worst part is it leaves an interpretation as to how badly the person meant it. I have told an admin "you are as helpful today as you ever been" Is this uncivil? wouldnt context be needed? Is this just a tiny jab to make them get the picture? Is it preffered I just tell them "I think you are worthless"? -- Nuclear Zer0 17:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I think people just need to realize you arent creating Utopia here, if cursing and sarcasm are both uncivil and I can get cited with WP:CIVIL for either, im going to curse instead then. What we need are realistic rules. -- Nuclear Zer0 17:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The effective use of sarcasm is dependent on tone and body language, both of which are essentially nullified on a text based medium. As other above have stated, it's a fine line and one that is more often going to be interpreted as being uncivil. Therefore, I think it's best to discourage the use of sarcasm in civil discourse among users and I would support Crum's original modification proposal. Agne 22:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Although this extended discussion over the inclusion of a single petty example of civility that should be altogether obvious is a bit silly, I'd like to comment that not all uses of sarcasm are incivil, if they're not actually targeted at the person being spoken to. In particular, statements which criticize article content or the article topic may, while not necessarily productive, still not qualify as a personal attack on an editor. Deco 09:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
"You can of course change people's thoughts, opinions and behaviour by changing text on a page they never refer to anyway." Is this sarcasm? Opinions wanted - David Gerard 12:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and if we add "sarcasm" we must must must add "smarminess" (faux-civility) and "passive aggression" - David Gerard 12:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Question: what would a hypothetical ban on sarcasm accomplish that WP:CIVIL and WP:DICK do not already accomplish? — Steve Summit ( talk) 12:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Crum375 appears to be attempting to revert-war his change in against multiple dissent. Which many would consider playing very badly with others, especially on a policy page. Is revert-warring less or more incivil than sarcasm? I call a straw poll.
Note that this does not address the issue of which is more destructive to the editing environment - David Gerard 13:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, we do already have a
rule guideline against stupidity, which has in fact abolished all stupidity on Wikipedia, and therefore removed any motivation editors may have to resort to sarcasm even when sorely provoked -
David Gerard
13:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
(ec)IMO, this would be a substantial and far-reaching expansion of "the rules" and would probably have a net negative impact on our mission to write an encyclopaedia.
As it stands, people abuse WP:CIVIL - I recently had someone tell me to "shut the fuck up" shortly after complaining that I had violated WP:CIVIL by pointing out that the sentance he had inserted into the middle of another sentance was poorly written and suggesting he re-write it. People interpret these rules as broadly as they possibly can when applying them to others, and as narrowly as possible when applying them themselves. As has been pointed out, it's too difficult to define sarcasm precisely enough. It also isn't really all that incivil (it's better to be sarcastic than it is to come out and open call stupidity stupidity). Guettarda 13:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Obviously sarcasm is far worse than edit warring, because an edit war can be stopped by clicking on the 'protect' button (which I have just done), and conversely, at the moment user pages have no such button to stop them from being sarcastic. I shall have to ask Brion what would be the best way of implementing that; I think there was discussion earlier of mandating Pavlovian helmets for editors with an electrical feedback mechanism. Any volunteers to test it? >Radiant< 13:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
This conversation has drifted far away from what was a serious proposal. I believe that we should outlaw sarcasm not because it's particularly uncivil but because it so often creates confusion and misunderstanding. Sarcasm is a very dangerous tool to use in electronic communications. A certain percentage of readers will always misunderstand it (and depending on the skill of the writer, that is often a very high percentage). As writers of an encyclopedia, we should value precision of thought and communication. Sarcasm creates ambiguity and room for doubt about the writer's real intent. I find those incompatible.
In my personal life, I enjoy sarcasm and other forms of dry wit. But for professional communications like building an encyclopedia, sarcasm creates many many problems. Rossami (talk) 05:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I probably started all this. User:Sbharris came onto WT:BLP comparing living bios to torturers and despots. The most coherent response I could formulate was to post links to Uncyclopedia articles. He then claimed I had broken Godwin's law. No really, it's all there. Go look. - David Gerard 14:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to mention his name here, because I don't want any premature bias, but the user is confrontational when anyone gives him any warnings, even going as far as to edit my userpage to express his displeasure at being warned. Is it something I bring forward to the administrators or what?-- Vercalos 01:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a user who refuses to discuss anything, and yet continues to revert edits. While some of them are vandalism, there are several, such as this and this, which are reverted, apparently constructive, edits without explanation, or response when the reverted user asks for a response. Additionally, he is virtually impossible to contact for anything, as his policy is to delete anything on his talk page. I personally haven't had my edits reverted by him, but he's causing other users distress, even to the point to threatening to ban users for ' messing with the article', even though they were making constructive edits that were fully discussed on the talk page. Anyone have any suggestions regarding him?-- Vercalos 03:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
It occurs to me that one of the worst cases of incivility that we see on a daily basis is editors and admins "telling" other people what to do. For example, let me use a quote from a recent discussion: "Stop shouting at people." (No, this was not directed at me.) While it is always a good idea to not shout at people, there are two problems with this:
I, generally, am a fairly independent person. I certainly do not like people demanding that I do one thing or another. In a a discussion that, as most do, becomes a war of words and generally feels quite terrible to the opposing party, the last thing anyone needs is for someone who clearly has no authority over them to begin demanding that they do one thing or another. "Calm down," "stop shouting," "move on," and the like are all catalyst statements. They prompt the opposing party to do exactly the opposite of what is being said.
I propose that the civility article be amended in a minor way to advise editors that asking people to do things, even when a discussion is heated and uncomfortable, is the best way to get something done. Even when I am angry at someone, I am still amenable to being asked to please, "stop this discussion for a few minutes," or "please do not use your caps lock," (something I don't do anyway, but you get my point ;) and so on.
The bottom line is this: it is not any editor's right or duty to tell someone what to do. No editor or admin on this wiki holds any power of command over me or any other editor, and the mere assumption that you do have that power to demand things of me is insulting. WP:Civility needs to be clear in asking the editors of this wiki to request, and not demand things of each other. -- Wolf530 ( talk) 17:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
OK. I was trying to improve an article, making some copyedits, and trying to fix a really messy part of the article where several images and templates were crowded into one spot. Another user reverted most of my edits, with sarcastic, snide, and overall rude remarks, and when I asked him to be civil, he only responded with more sarcasm, and accused me of being rude for calling an article sloppy, specifiying I didn't mean to offend the contributors.-- Vercalos 00:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Flame wars and incivility do happen, every single second, on Wikipedia. It is not different from the rest of the internet. All this policy does is shift the language from "You're a ____" to "You're uncivil". Whiny little wikilawyers point constantly to WP:CIV any time their sensitive ears are offended, and admins come charging in to ensure that the correct wiki-language is always being used.
I believe that having this silly code in which you can only say something hostile if you do it in the correct wiki-way does nothing for real "civility" and only tips the scales in favor of activist admins and whiny contributors who know just enough to play by the rules. It takes up way too much time and interferes with our efforts to communicate and to improve the encyclopedia. Please consider changing it. Haber 14:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
My main concern with this policy is that it seems to more often aid the wrongdoers than protect the innocent. For instance, people who deliberaretly and repeatedly misrepresent information from cited sources, fabricate information, and present biased information in a clandestine manner are always and forever protected by the policies of civility, personal attack, and good faith except in obvious cases of vandalism. When it's clear that someone is being dishonest in this fashion by misrepresenting, fabricating, or presenting biased information, people need to be able to call them on it in cases where it is indicated by good evidence in order to make it known to everyone else that they need to keep a watch on this particular user and what he incorporates into the encyclopedia. But instead, under these policies, editors are limited to contesting the information itself on a perpetual basis, and this can be tedious, and it makes it difficult to maintain the integrity of the information. The motives of a habitual unscrupulous editor needs to be revealed to protect the solidarity of the information on Wikipedia and out of respect for editors who "really are" acting in good faith. I would be more in favor of these policies if there were more measures in place to counteract the actions of determined writers with hidden or biased agendas. As it stands now, such insincere people are routinely taking advantage of these policies and gleefully waiving these warnings anytime someone challenges their personal intentions. I'd personally like to see a "reputation meter" put in place whereby experienced editors are allowed to collectively rate another editor's tendency toward "good faith, civility, honesty, etc." This might make it easier to counteract those troublemakers who take advantage of these policies to further their agendas. Danrz 09:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Danrz
I'd like to add the following paragraph under "Caution the Offender":
Incivility alone is rarely a reportable offense. Every effort should be made to ignore or work around incivility without citing this policy, resorting to warning templates, or requesting admin intervention. It is inappropriate to threaten to have someone's account blocked except in the most egregious cases. The following process should be considered a last resort.
Comments? Haber 23:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Something ought to be said about throwing WP:whatever at people.
Probably WP:V is most abused, since many things are verifiable only with great difficulty — and people throwing around WP:V know this. (perhaps my source is a college textbook that I sold back to the campus bookstore, and now I don't remember the title or ISDN number — am I to buy and re-read books until I find the source???)
WP:NPOV is another one that gets severely abused, though at least that one is easier to defend against.
AlbertCahalan 09:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
This article doesn't have a section for related links so I'll post this on talk. Wikipedia:No angry mastodons covers informal ways to resolve disputes and encourage polite collaboration. Durova 23:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I am starting to think this policy is suboptimal. Don't get me wrong, civility is much nicer than nastiness. But the thing is, profound frustration is possible even in cases where all parties remain civil. And it's certainly possible to be petty or condescending from behind the veneer of civil language. I just don't think civility is a high enough standard.
Users should be friendly to one another. It wouldn't kill us to be generally positive in tone when talking with people who disagree with us. I like to think I would be really, really surprised if someone were to get angry or frustrated over something I've written on a discussion page.
Every sentence you write in a heated discussion will affect how the reader sees you and your ideas. When you write something to score points on someone in an argument (rather than to explain your point of view, or to try to ask the right questions to understand the other point of view, which is what you ought to be doing), people pick up on that. And they either lose respect for you, or they start doing the same thing.
Ideally, a discussion is a search for enlightenment--about your own views, as well as others. And, of course, an attempt on all parts to make a better encyclopedia. Anything less makes Wikipedia less than it could be. (This means you, smartypants.)
Seriously--if you can't maintain an honestly friendly attitude while writing to someone, it means you're frustrated, impatient, or ticked off. It happens. What is one to do? Well, it depends.
Despite the slightly silly language, I really am quite serious about this. People with good humor and a friendly tone are shining examples to the rest of us--somewhere deep inside, we know that--and the effect they have on mobs of opinionated people is like magic.
As long as civility is our standard, that's all we'll get. If we can bring ourselves to ask one another to Be friendly, Wikipedia will be pleasanter--and more productive. Jorend 22:27, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
I like to start an article about civility. It was an important concept in the history of Europe and humanism. It surprises me that there isn't an article about this topic. Civility has to do with discipline, etiquette, living in the city, civilized conversation ( Stanley versus Livingstone: 'Dr. Livingstone, I presume?'). It was derived from Roman and Greek antiquity.
I have found a similar topic: Civic virtue. So a special article on civility is not necessary.-- Daanschr 16:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I keep making a small section on the South Park page about how some people Critisize South Park, and people keep reverting it, what is the problem? http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=South_Park&diff=56852774&oldid=56852519 I think this is a perfectly fine section of it. People need to know about these kinds of things, and I am staying 100% neutral with my opinions, im just laying down the FACTS of what other people believe.
Indeed. Take a gander at these words of wisdom: [1] - Zero Talk 09:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I had an editor admonish me today: you should not be refactoring the talk page when you are the target of incivility. Is this correct? -- ScienceApologist 01:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
It generally isn't a good idea to go editing someone else's offensive words if those words are directed at you. The reason is that the original writer is likely to take even more severe offense at your editing than you did at the words themselves. So what you end up creating is an escalation of offensiveness rather than a defusing of the situation. -- FOo 06:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Simple, remove the offensive content, but leave a note saying you did and a diff to the offensive edit so people can see what you have removed. HighInBC 06:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Is incivility just words? Or actions also? If an editor annoys another with an action (eg placing a counterargument between the lines of your talkpage comment, or rearanges your comments or re-titles them). Then makes 200 of the same actions in the week - is that not uncivil? It seems the only solution in that possibly hypothetical situation is to have a will of iron and to stay frosty. Matlee 11:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps this sort of behaviour could fall under WP:Point? HighInBC 06:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
repetitively labels me as "uncivil" & deletes every comment & complaint that I write, particularly if I write about Scott.
So, I've decided to write about it here.
Shall Scott delete this as well??
Is there some law against wiki improving??
If not, then why delete my comments,
& my pages??
Hopiakuta 06:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, regardless of whether it had been Scott or some other puppet who had deleted my page, how may I have it revived??
Rather than having it deleted, I would have preferred
discussion regarding its improvement.
Thank You.
Hopiakuta 06:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
from the article: "There is a case where Wikipedia as a whole is not especially respectful of contributions, since anyone can edit freely." <-- could someone explain or re-write this sentence. I do not understand it. -- JWSchmidt 21:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I am looking for a little guidance here. Let's say that group x says group y is supported by the Communist Party, and a link is provided to where the group makes the argument. Would it also be okay to include links to the Communist Party's website if they substantiate group x's claim for the sake of verifiability? -- 146.145.70.200 21:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
This isn't a policy. It doesn't read like one, and it doesn't actually state any policy.
Anthere and I started the page on meta. It was a discussion page about what to do about patterns of editing we saw, oh, about three years ago. The discussion isn't very relevant today, because Wikipedia is a very different place.
I've boldly changed the tag. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 22:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, let's begin the discussion. I concur with UninvitedCompany. This page consists of advice and guidelines. If anything, we should have a policy that says only "Participate in a respectful and civil way", and from there link to a page of guidelines for how to apply that policy to your daily editing. — GT 08:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I also note that we have Wikipedia:Etiquette which is better (marginally) than this. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 20:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
In response to your first concern, I think it is standard practice to explain the reasoning behind a merge tag on the discusion page, if such an explanation is here then I must have missed it. Very often people throw a tag there and leave, I am not implying that is the case here, but I saw no discussion taking place here. Nothing I did was not reversable and I do not think it an uncivil act of me, please take my word I was trying to improve the encyclopedia.
As for your second concern, yes I do beleive that the ability to tell new people that civility is a rule and not a suggestion is very important to keeping order. Wikipedia is growing at a tremendous rate right now and we need to remain civil more than ever before. HighInBC 06:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Should the use of all caps be considered being uncivil? Unless absolutely necessary for formatting, style, or faithful reproductions, using ALL CAPS often means shouting and shouting is not civil. Example: “This is NOT correct.” (Unnecessary use of caps, facts can still be communicated well without the emphasis.) -- 70.240.190.133 21:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the merge tag, please explain your reason behind the proposed merge. HighInBC 06:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I see. The seperation of the 2 pages seems to me to be based on the idea that while civility is policy, etiquette is a guideline. I has always seen it as an extension to the civility policy, but not a mandatory one. A place for suggested practices that perhaps should not be enforced strictly.
An alternative solution to merging them may be to transfer/edit material between the two after acheiving consensus. Of course making any structural or stylistic changes to improve either would be a boon to wikipedia aswell.
What do you think about those ideas? HighInBC 21:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Excellent, I am glad you invited more people into this discussion. HighInBC 22:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
And if that is what consensus determines then that is what should be done. But consensus is far. We have only three opinions on the subject of the merge. HighInBC 23:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I am starting to realize GT that our ideas are not totally in oposition.
You seem to be talking about a smaller policy in regards to civility which is restricted to non arbritrary rules, and then another page that encompasses the less than mandatory, harder to define nuances of being good to each other. Correct me if I am misinterpreting.
Where I am suggesting that content be moved between the two to make it acceptable to consensus and keeping the respective status of each on as it is.
The only real difference would be that perhaps in your scenario WP:Etiquette would have a different name. I am not opposed to it being names something along the lines of Wikipedia:Suggestions on how to be civil.
Hmmmm? HighInBC 23:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
There probably does need to be a distinction made between a Civility policy and a set of Etiquette guidelines. I wouldn't merge them, but they do need to be made clearer. One thing that is worth mentioning is that the use of diplomatic language can be done in an aggressive way. In other words, the spirit of the discussion is as important as the words used. Carcharoth 01:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
And looking more closely, the etiquette page covers far more than just being civil (or at least it should). Definitely do not merge. Being civil is effectively just saying "be nice". Etiquette is a series of examples and rules. What to do in "x" situation. Carcharoth 01:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure whether we need a policy about civility, but we definitely need a policy about incivility, and, for now, this is it. I think that we also need a guideline about how to be as nice as possible, and, currently, that is Wikipedia:Etiquette. I think that there's a lot of content that should be shuffled between the two pages right now, but I think that we need two separate ones. JYolkowski // talk 01:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to toss in my agreement with Hiding's succinct description of the policy-guideline relationship that should be extended towards this merge discussion. I'd also like to underline Carcharoth's point with respect to Hiding's: etiquette is a list of procedures that apply to specific situations (which constitutes a guideline) whereas civility is a behavioural requirement (which is a policy). Thus, I support the shuffling of content to support these definitions and oppose the merge of the two. Hopefully my two cents helps to evolve the consensus or lack thereof, however I don't plan to actively participate in the merge proposal proceedings so leave me a note on my talk page if you want my attention regarding this comment. BigNate37 (T) 20:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
This is not generally how merges are done. Typically we vote, explaining rationale if opposing:
The merge tag has been on the article for three weeks and a total of ten people have made a clear statement one way or the other regarding a merge. My tally is: seven opposed and three in favor of merging. Thus consensus is no merge. On the other hand, there have been some suggestions for additions/revisions to the policy (see previous sections). These can easily be pursued here. In the meantime, I will remove the merge tag. Sunray 18:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I was notified that my warnings about WP:3RR violate this policy. Could someone confirm or deny that for me? Thanks, Ansell 08:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
In the debate above under the heading "Policy --> essay," GT suggested a positive statement of the policy: "Participate in a respectful and civil way." I think we should add this as the basic statement of the policy. Thus the policy would state the expectations of what users should do, rather than only what they should not do. As I said above, I think that the elaboration currently in the policy (e.g., "being rude, insensitive or petty makes people upset and prevents Wikipedia from working properly...) is fine to give background to those who want more information. However, we need a clear statement of what the policy expectations are. Comments? Sunray 20:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
This issue was raised in the WP:BLP Talk page but is relevant throughout WP space - I think we have a fairly clear consensus that sarcasm should never be used anywhere in WP space including edit summaries, except in article space where it is duly quoted with a reliable source. I am therefore adding it here as an example of incivility. If anyone disagrees, please discuss here. Thanks, Crum375 12:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Please don't be silly. This isn't some police state where thought can be a crime. Sarcasm doesn't often help a discussion because it tends to be narrow and full of logical holes. It is rarely, if ever, uncivil however. Codifying such things is just really very unfortunate and won't actually solve anything. It would be deeply unfortunate if we were suggesting that someone should be blocked if they are sarcastic. - Splash - tk 23:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It is not fine to list as an example since it is not an example of incivility. It's an example of a choice of a words that is likely to deprecate a course of action, sure, but that doesn't make it any more uncivil than me saying "don't do that". It is also not disruptive; the notion that it is is really pretty off the road. WP:CIVIL urges us not to be rude, it does not tell us what forms of 'speech' we may and may not use, and does not (should not) try to prescribe the manner and tone of everything anyone says. If people don't understand the difference between something like "oh yeah, because that'd be great, not" and "you are an idiot" then probably there is no helping them. Certainly telling me that I cannot say the former is just really pretty unhealthy. - Splash - tk 09:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I've posted a note at the Village Pump, to see if we can get some broader input here. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
While it is rude technically I think you have to have pretty think skin to call it uncivil. No I do not consider all rude things to be uncivil. I mean popping gum is rude, I wouldnt call someone uncivil because they did it. Its bordering as the person said above on nursery school rules. The sad part is that many people resort to sarcasm to avoid being uncivil. I mean how many times can you tell someone you do not agree before a sarcastic comment comes out. I think people are not realizing the context of why and when people use sarcasm. Also calling it uncivil is going to create a giant mess of new evidence and WP:PAIN postings etc. The worst part is it leaves an interpretation as to how badly the person meant it. I have told an admin "you are as helpful today as you ever been" Is this uncivil? wouldnt context be needed? Is this just a tiny jab to make them get the picture? Is it preffered I just tell them "I think you are worthless"? -- Nuclear Zer0 17:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I think people just need to realize you arent creating Utopia here, if cursing and sarcasm are both uncivil and I can get cited with WP:CIVIL for either, im going to curse instead then. What we need are realistic rules. -- Nuclear Zer0 17:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
The effective use of sarcasm is dependent on tone and body language, both of which are essentially nullified on a text based medium. As other above have stated, it's a fine line and one that is more often going to be interpreted as being uncivil. Therefore, I think it's best to discourage the use of sarcasm in civil discourse among users and I would support Crum's original modification proposal. Agne 22:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Although this extended discussion over the inclusion of a single petty example of civility that should be altogether obvious is a bit silly, I'd like to comment that not all uses of sarcasm are incivil, if they're not actually targeted at the person being spoken to. In particular, statements which criticize article content or the article topic may, while not necessarily productive, still not qualify as a personal attack on an editor. Deco 09:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
"You can of course change people's thoughts, opinions and behaviour by changing text on a page they never refer to anyway." Is this sarcasm? Opinions wanted - David Gerard 12:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and if we add "sarcasm" we must must must add "smarminess" (faux-civility) and "passive aggression" - David Gerard 12:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Question: what would a hypothetical ban on sarcasm accomplish that WP:CIVIL and WP:DICK do not already accomplish? — Steve Summit ( talk) 12:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Crum375 appears to be attempting to revert-war his change in against multiple dissent. Which many would consider playing very badly with others, especially on a policy page. Is revert-warring less or more incivil than sarcasm? I call a straw poll.
Note that this does not address the issue of which is more destructive to the editing environment - David Gerard 13:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
To be fair, we do already have a
rule guideline against stupidity, which has in fact abolished all stupidity on Wikipedia, and therefore removed any motivation editors may have to resort to sarcasm even when sorely provoked -
David Gerard
13:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
(ec)IMO, this would be a substantial and far-reaching expansion of "the rules" and would probably have a net negative impact on our mission to write an encyclopaedia.
As it stands, people abuse WP:CIVIL - I recently had someone tell me to "shut the fuck up" shortly after complaining that I had violated WP:CIVIL by pointing out that the sentance he had inserted into the middle of another sentance was poorly written and suggesting he re-write it. People interpret these rules as broadly as they possibly can when applying them to others, and as narrowly as possible when applying them themselves. As has been pointed out, it's too difficult to define sarcasm precisely enough. It also isn't really all that incivil (it's better to be sarcastic than it is to come out and open call stupidity stupidity). Guettarda 13:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Obviously sarcasm is far worse than edit warring, because an edit war can be stopped by clicking on the 'protect' button (which I have just done), and conversely, at the moment user pages have no such button to stop them from being sarcastic. I shall have to ask Brion what would be the best way of implementing that; I think there was discussion earlier of mandating Pavlovian helmets for editors with an electrical feedback mechanism. Any volunteers to test it? >Radiant< 13:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
This conversation has drifted far away from what was a serious proposal. I believe that we should outlaw sarcasm not because it's particularly uncivil but because it so often creates confusion and misunderstanding. Sarcasm is a very dangerous tool to use in electronic communications. A certain percentage of readers will always misunderstand it (and depending on the skill of the writer, that is often a very high percentage). As writers of an encyclopedia, we should value precision of thought and communication. Sarcasm creates ambiguity and room for doubt about the writer's real intent. I find those incompatible.
In my personal life, I enjoy sarcasm and other forms of dry wit. But for professional communications like building an encyclopedia, sarcasm creates many many problems. Rossami (talk) 05:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I probably started all this. User:Sbharris came onto WT:BLP comparing living bios to torturers and despots. The most coherent response I could formulate was to post links to Uncyclopedia articles. He then claimed I had broken Godwin's law. No really, it's all there. Go look. - David Gerard 14:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to mention his name here, because I don't want any premature bias, but the user is confrontational when anyone gives him any warnings, even going as far as to edit my userpage to express his displeasure at being warned. Is it something I bring forward to the administrators or what?-- Vercalos 01:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a user who refuses to discuss anything, and yet continues to revert edits. While some of them are vandalism, there are several, such as this and this, which are reverted, apparently constructive, edits without explanation, or response when the reverted user asks for a response. Additionally, he is virtually impossible to contact for anything, as his policy is to delete anything on his talk page. I personally haven't had my edits reverted by him, but he's causing other users distress, even to the point to threatening to ban users for ' messing with the article', even though they were making constructive edits that were fully discussed on the talk page. Anyone have any suggestions regarding him?-- Vercalos 03:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
It occurs to me that one of the worst cases of incivility that we see on a daily basis is editors and admins "telling" other people what to do. For example, let me use a quote from a recent discussion: "Stop shouting at people." (No, this was not directed at me.) While it is always a good idea to not shout at people, there are two problems with this:
I, generally, am a fairly independent person. I certainly do not like people demanding that I do one thing or another. In a a discussion that, as most do, becomes a war of words and generally feels quite terrible to the opposing party, the last thing anyone needs is for someone who clearly has no authority over them to begin demanding that they do one thing or another. "Calm down," "stop shouting," "move on," and the like are all catalyst statements. They prompt the opposing party to do exactly the opposite of what is being said.
I propose that the civility article be amended in a minor way to advise editors that asking people to do things, even when a discussion is heated and uncomfortable, is the best way to get something done. Even when I am angry at someone, I am still amenable to being asked to please, "stop this discussion for a few minutes," or "please do not use your caps lock," (something I don't do anyway, but you get my point ;) and so on.
The bottom line is this: it is not any editor's right or duty to tell someone what to do. No editor or admin on this wiki holds any power of command over me or any other editor, and the mere assumption that you do have that power to demand things of me is insulting. WP:Civility needs to be clear in asking the editors of this wiki to request, and not demand things of each other. -- Wolf530 ( talk) 17:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
OK. I was trying to improve an article, making some copyedits, and trying to fix a really messy part of the article where several images and templates were crowded into one spot. Another user reverted most of my edits, with sarcastic, snide, and overall rude remarks, and when I asked him to be civil, he only responded with more sarcasm, and accused me of being rude for calling an article sloppy, specifiying I didn't mean to offend the contributors.-- Vercalos 00:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Flame wars and incivility do happen, every single second, on Wikipedia. It is not different from the rest of the internet. All this policy does is shift the language from "You're a ____" to "You're uncivil". Whiny little wikilawyers point constantly to WP:CIV any time their sensitive ears are offended, and admins come charging in to ensure that the correct wiki-language is always being used.
I believe that having this silly code in which you can only say something hostile if you do it in the correct wiki-way does nothing for real "civility" and only tips the scales in favor of activist admins and whiny contributors who know just enough to play by the rules. It takes up way too much time and interferes with our efforts to communicate and to improve the encyclopedia. Please consider changing it. Haber 14:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
My main concern with this policy is that it seems to more often aid the wrongdoers than protect the innocent. For instance, people who deliberaretly and repeatedly misrepresent information from cited sources, fabricate information, and present biased information in a clandestine manner are always and forever protected by the policies of civility, personal attack, and good faith except in obvious cases of vandalism. When it's clear that someone is being dishonest in this fashion by misrepresenting, fabricating, or presenting biased information, people need to be able to call them on it in cases where it is indicated by good evidence in order to make it known to everyone else that they need to keep a watch on this particular user and what he incorporates into the encyclopedia. But instead, under these policies, editors are limited to contesting the information itself on a perpetual basis, and this can be tedious, and it makes it difficult to maintain the integrity of the information. The motives of a habitual unscrupulous editor needs to be revealed to protect the solidarity of the information on Wikipedia and out of respect for editors who "really are" acting in good faith. I would be more in favor of these policies if there were more measures in place to counteract the actions of determined writers with hidden or biased agendas. As it stands now, such insincere people are routinely taking advantage of these policies and gleefully waiving these warnings anytime someone challenges their personal intentions. I'd personally like to see a "reputation meter" put in place whereby experienced editors are allowed to collectively rate another editor's tendency toward "good faith, civility, honesty, etc." This might make it easier to counteract those troublemakers who take advantage of these policies to further their agendas. Danrz 09:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Danrz
I'd like to add the following paragraph under "Caution the Offender":
Incivility alone is rarely a reportable offense. Every effort should be made to ignore or work around incivility without citing this policy, resorting to warning templates, or requesting admin intervention. It is inappropriate to threaten to have someone's account blocked except in the most egregious cases. The following process should be considered a last resort.
Comments? Haber 23:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)