This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The speedy renaming procedure was adopted after consensual discussion on Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Restructuring.
Conversions from singular to plural (or back) were the third criterion originally suggested on Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Restructuring. Since there was some controversy on its suitability, it should be discussed here before making it an 'official' criterion.
I've made a possible template for use on speedy-renaming candidates at template:Cfr-speedy. Its based on the cfr tamplate, but I've modified it slightly. Comments are more than welcome at its talk page. Thryduulf 11:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Now that the speedy renaming process has been running for a bit, I'd like to propose some fine tuning.
Just a few humble suggestions. -- Azkar 14:18, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
R adiant _* 08:30, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Categories_for_deletion#Speedy category deletion. It was discussed there (with a link from WP:TFD/talk) and deemed common sense. Avoid duplicate discussions. R adiant _* 12:42, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
Recently, there was a long, drawn-out discussion and vote to delete Category:Terrorist organizations, a decision I agree with. However, it now appears that the following categories still exist: Category:Zionist terrorist organizations, Category:Islamic terrorist organizations, Category:Leftist terrorist organizations, Category:Palestinian terrorist organizations, Category:Terrorist organizations based in the United States, Category:Terrorist organizations in Northern Ireland, Category:Northern Ireland terrorists, Category:Terrorists by region and Category:Palestinian terrorists. These are now listed Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 May 20.
I propose that Categories for deletion policy be amended to make explicit that a vote for deletion is a vote to delete all of a category's subcategories. How can the inclusion/exclusion criteria be any different for a subcategory than for its parent? This would of course imply adding a {cfd} template message to every subcategory when the parent is listed for deletion. -- Viajero | Talk 16:14, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
So far this policy did use this word, but did not define it, relying on the common sense and practices at other deletion pages. the problem is that consensus cannot work well here, since this page is not visited sufficiently frequently to deliver opinions of editors whose work is influenced by the decision. A part of the reason is that categories are on the watch lists of too few people, sinve they are not edited frequently.
I am not good at writing policies. However I feel that for this case the notion of consensus must be much stricter and must include at least the following rule:
Or whatever better wording. I understand that this is still a vague phrasing. But the sole goal of it is to request a more considerate decision making by the person who decides the fate of a category when facing only a handful of opinions. Deciding fates of dozens of articles by voices of 3-4 persons is soooo far from democracy and consensus, so I suggest to forget these words in this context at all. Mikkalai 18:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm a little confused regarding the actual procedure to use for renaming categories. Since redirection of categories isn't as yet possible, wouldn't a plain move to a new category page with the desired name f*ck things up? If I have overlooked some specific information on this issue, please point me in that direction or otherwise enlighten me. -- Wernher 4 July 2005 02:57 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Centralized discussion or Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. I noted it had been amended to Wikipedia:Centralized discussion and couoldn't find any discussion on this page as to why that change had been made. I'd argue that the traffic on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions is higher than at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion, and that people are going to be expecting to discuss such issues at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions and therefore watching it there. However I could be wrong, I just think that changing the page where the discussion should be had needs to be discussed. Hiding talk 15:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Suggestions for new criteria should be proposed on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. If a strong consensus is reached on a naming convention, it should be added to the speedy renaming criteria below.
If you feel that established and consensual naming convention would be appropriate here, please list it on Wikipedia talk:Categories for deletion. If there are no objections after a week, it can be added to the list of criteria here. If there are objections, a consensus should be formed.
Now I look at it again, do these two seem to contradict each other? As to where the discussion should be held for new criteria to be discussed, I am coming to the mind that it doesn't matter so much as long as the discussion is advertised on the pump. Personally, I think Wikipedia talk:Categories for deletion might be the better place. Hiding talk 20:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
It has been pointed out to me that the section about handling "controversial decisions" is not currently followed. Reading the section, I agree. As the system currently functions, this section is generally not used. But it is technically a part of the policy. But policy can be changed, and that is my purpose here. To try to get the section rewritten to better reflect the current realities of how CFD functions.
First off, the section is definitely out of date. It mentions VFD, which has not existed for quite some time.
Second, it basically says that all No Consensous (NC) debates should be put on unresolved for an extra seven days, with a posting made to try to bring in some more more debate. This is not how the page has operated in as long as I can remember. In general, NC descisions are closed and done. The Unresolved section is used sometimes at the discression of the closer if they feel that more time can make a difference. But having to do this for every no consensous would be a major increase in the workload on a page that already tends to fall behind. (And I'm talking about falling behind on the closings, not the execution of renames, which is a whole nother backlog situation)
And, there's the issue of how to get more comments on held-over debates. The section says VFD, which no longer exists. It was replaced with AFD, which is primarily focused on articles. So AFD would not really be an appropriate place IMHO to go posting for input on CFD votes. I guess MFD would be a possibility, but I suspect that's even lower traffic than CFD, so I'm skeptical it wold bring much extra traffic. Plus I wonder if such notices would be appreciated on MFD, or whether MFD would consider them to be off topic to that place.
Given all the problems, I don't see a good way to recover this section as policy that coverts the current CFD realities. So my inclination would simply be to remove it, and write a segment to the previous section reflecting how NC are handled. If there is no discussion here to that effect within a week or so, I'll be bold and make that edit. but I'll give it a week for discussion to start up. There's no hurry, the section has been as it is for quite a while. - TexasAndroid 15:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that the speedy renaming criteria should also apply to speedy merging, i.e. the same case as a speedy rename, but the target also exists. The only problem I can see with this is if we have two categories on different topics which are a 'speedy merge' away from each other. Any thoughs? Objections? SeventyThree( Talk) 03:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Where can a review of deletion/re-naming decision be taken up? TIA, -- Gurubrahma 12:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This policy has details of 'how' to do deletes, but lacks detail on certain critical 'who' and 'why'. For example, it is not clear, given the meaning of Wikipedia:Consensus, that a consensus can be produced by several editors just saying 'keep' or 'delete' with no reasoning provided. Voting cannot, in and of itself, produce consensus; it just produces a vote count. Also, "who" has the authority to decide whether there is a 'consensus' and whether the 'consensus' is to 'keep' or 'delete'?
More importantly, there should be a large distinction between renaming categories and deleting categories. Renaming is often an improvement. On the other hand, absolute deletion destroys the work of many editors and should be undertaken only in extreme circumstances, when clearly defined policies of Wikipedia are violated by retaining the categories. (Whatever these policies are also need to be found and reviewed.) The distaste of those editors who actually monitor the 'categories for deletion' page should never be held in higher regard than the article/category editors who created and used the categories, not higher than the readers who might benefit from the categories in question. Thanks Hmains 01:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The Speedy criteria are used in two places, and had diverged slightly. Also, typographical errors fixed here had not been fixed at WP:CFDS. They now both use Wikipedia:Category deletion policy/Speedy criteria.
Templates for deletion states:
Is it reasonable to expect that the same process should take place here, with respect to maintenance categories? -- nae' blis 16:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
This was crossposted and has little to do with the specific workings of this page. Please discuss at Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#Informing the creators is being ignored. The comments have already been moved. Please do not spam such complaints across multiple pages. Rossami (talk) 19:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The policy deals with these category classifications:
Where is the policy for categories that don't fall into one of these classificatons? (See Category:Fauna by country and its attendant discussion page as an example.)— Chidom talk 19:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Whether here or elsewhere, the policy regarding deleting subcategories of nominated categories needs to be specifically spelled out. What is listed at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion#Procedure III. is not clear enough; it says to list the subcategories (though even that is not really clear); nowhere is it stated that all subcategories need the {{ cfd}} tag added on their pages as well. My personal opinion is that requiring the {{ cfd}} tag to be placed on every subcategory page will discourage or preclude categories with massive numbers of subcats from being nominated for deletion. (Again, see Category:Fauna by country and its discussion page.) I added the tag on 133 subcategory pages. Since I don't know how to write bots, this was largely done by hand. I do have the advantage of a macro program that helped somewhat, but it was still an onerous manual task. I have posted this comment on the talk page for Wikipedia:Categories for discussion as well.— Chidom talk 19:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this a subpage of some other policy? I'm trying to find how to get categories renamed, and Wikipedia:Renaming categories redirects here, but there's actually no information on how to rename categories that aren't speedy renames. What's missing? Stevage 09:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed
"* Link to precedent-setting conversations from /resolved."
from the closure section as this is never done. See Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/resolved's history Tim! 18:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
and also "* Save interesting conversations in /resolved; discard uninteresting conversations."
I wonder who would have decided which CFD discussions are interesting? ;) Tim! 18:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this section could do with overhauling. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/unresolved is marked as historical. I would recommend removing
and possibly add relisting on CFD as an alternative to closing as keep (I occaisionly do this where only limited discussion has taken place). Tim! 18:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I also wonder at the necessity of waiting 30 days to delete an empty category when it has been nominated but achieved no consensus. Tim! 18:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've renamed the policy page as Wikipedia:Categories for Discussion policies which is how it was described in the templates. I agree that the guidance is still confusing to the newbie and wants more rearranging. - Fayenatic london (talk) 21:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Do categories such as Category:Shadyville Entertainment artists get deleted, since there is no " Shadyville Entertainment" article? I mean, categories for artists of certain record labels, but there is no page for that record label. --- Who's the one you call Mr. Macho? The head honcho, swift fist like Camacho 03:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is the "Closing debates" section listed first? Wouldn't it make more sense to put it after the parts that discuss how and why to start a category deletion debate? -- Hi Ev 09:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
While many categories maybe relevant and helpful, categorisation is not easy. For example the categorisation of psychological/affective states as emotions is contested in the specialised psychological literature. Nevertheless the category:emotion exist and may imply pyschological ideas without any source. To what extent do categories comply to core guidlines such as WP:Reliable, WP:V and WP:OR?? Arnoutf ( talk) 18:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
What's the correct answer?
There is a note on the project page stating in relation with speedy renaming and merging "If the nominator decides to change a nomination based on comments, simply delete the old nomination and create a new one as long as it still meets the speedy criteria". As of late I have noticed one nominator who has repeatedly changed his nominations and/or added other related categories to his nominations. Often this makes it impossible to know whether the opinions of commenting editors relate to the current proposal.
I propose to make the above note a little stronger "If the nominator decides to change a nomination, simply delete the old nomination and create a new one (as long as it still meets the speedy criteria)", and add a note with the same content to the project page in relation with non-speedy nominations as well. Apart from that I think changes in the nomination (apart form typos) should be sufficient reason for immediate administrative closure of the nomination. What are your opinions? Debresser ( talk) 07:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I see that for clarity's sake, I have to split my proposal into three:
If the nominator decides to change a nomination based on comments, simply delete the old nomination and create a new one as long as it still meets the speedy criteria.
Debresser ( talk) 22:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The speedy renaming procedure was adopted after consensual discussion on Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Restructuring.
Conversions from singular to plural (or back) were the third criterion originally suggested on Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Restructuring. Since there was some controversy on its suitability, it should be discussed here before making it an 'official' criterion.
I've made a possible template for use on speedy-renaming candidates at template:Cfr-speedy. Its based on the cfr tamplate, but I've modified it slightly. Comments are more than welcome at its talk page. Thryduulf 11:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Now that the speedy renaming process has been running for a bit, I'd like to propose some fine tuning.
Just a few humble suggestions. -- Azkar 14:18, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
R adiant _* 08:30, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Categories_for_deletion#Speedy category deletion. It was discussed there (with a link from WP:TFD/talk) and deemed common sense. Avoid duplicate discussions. R adiant _* 12:42, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
Recently, there was a long, drawn-out discussion and vote to delete Category:Terrorist organizations, a decision I agree with. However, it now appears that the following categories still exist: Category:Zionist terrorist organizations, Category:Islamic terrorist organizations, Category:Leftist terrorist organizations, Category:Palestinian terrorist organizations, Category:Terrorist organizations based in the United States, Category:Terrorist organizations in Northern Ireland, Category:Northern Ireland terrorists, Category:Terrorists by region and Category:Palestinian terrorists. These are now listed Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 May 20.
I propose that Categories for deletion policy be amended to make explicit that a vote for deletion is a vote to delete all of a category's subcategories. How can the inclusion/exclusion criteria be any different for a subcategory than for its parent? This would of course imply adding a {cfd} template message to every subcategory when the parent is listed for deletion. -- Viajero | Talk 16:14, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
So far this policy did use this word, but did not define it, relying on the common sense and practices at other deletion pages. the problem is that consensus cannot work well here, since this page is not visited sufficiently frequently to deliver opinions of editors whose work is influenced by the decision. A part of the reason is that categories are on the watch lists of too few people, sinve they are not edited frequently.
I am not good at writing policies. However I feel that for this case the notion of consensus must be much stricter and must include at least the following rule:
Or whatever better wording. I understand that this is still a vague phrasing. But the sole goal of it is to request a more considerate decision making by the person who decides the fate of a category when facing only a handful of opinions. Deciding fates of dozens of articles by voices of 3-4 persons is soooo far from democracy and consensus, so I suggest to forget these words in this context at all. Mikkalai 18:34, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm a little confused regarding the actual procedure to use for renaming categories. Since redirection of categories isn't as yet possible, wouldn't a plain move to a new category page with the desired name f*ck things up? If I have overlooked some specific information on this issue, please point me in that direction or otherwise enlighten me. -- Wernher 4 July 2005 02:57 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Centralized discussion or Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. I noted it had been amended to Wikipedia:Centralized discussion and couoldn't find any discussion on this page as to why that change had been made. I'd argue that the traffic on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions is higher than at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion, and that people are going to be expecting to discuss such issues at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions and therefore watching it there. However I could be wrong, I just think that changing the page where the discussion should be had needs to be discussed. Hiding talk 15:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Suggestions for new criteria should be proposed on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. If a strong consensus is reached on a naming convention, it should be added to the speedy renaming criteria below.
If you feel that established and consensual naming convention would be appropriate here, please list it on Wikipedia talk:Categories for deletion. If there are no objections after a week, it can be added to the list of criteria here. If there are objections, a consensus should be formed.
Now I look at it again, do these two seem to contradict each other? As to where the discussion should be held for new criteria to be discussed, I am coming to the mind that it doesn't matter so much as long as the discussion is advertised on the pump. Personally, I think Wikipedia talk:Categories for deletion might be the better place. Hiding talk 20:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
It has been pointed out to me that the section about handling "controversial decisions" is not currently followed. Reading the section, I agree. As the system currently functions, this section is generally not used. But it is technically a part of the policy. But policy can be changed, and that is my purpose here. To try to get the section rewritten to better reflect the current realities of how CFD functions.
First off, the section is definitely out of date. It mentions VFD, which has not existed for quite some time.
Second, it basically says that all No Consensous (NC) debates should be put on unresolved for an extra seven days, with a posting made to try to bring in some more more debate. This is not how the page has operated in as long as I can remember. In general, NC descisions are closed and done. The Unresolved section is used sometimes at the discression of the closer if they feel that more time can make a difference. But having to do this for every no consensous would be a major increase in the workload on a page that already tends to fall behind. (And I'm talking about falling behind on the closings, not the execution of renames, which is a whole nother backlog situation)
And, there's the issue of how to get more comments on held-over debates. The section says VFD, which no longer exists. It was replaced with AFD, which is primarily focused on articles. So AFD would not really be an appropriate place IMHO to go posting for input on CFD votes. I guess MFD would be a possibility, but I suspect that's even lower traffic than CFD, so I'm skeptical it wold bring much extra traffic. Plus I wonder if such notices would be appreciated on MFD, or whether MFD would consider them to be off topic to that place.
Given all the problems, I don't see a good way to recover this section as policy that coverts the current CFD realities. So my inclination would simply be to remove it, and write a segment to the previous section reflecting how NC are handled. If there is no discussion here to that effect within a week or so, I'll be bold and make that edit. but I'll give it a week for discussion to start up. There's no hurry, the section has been as it is for quite a while. - TexasAndroid 15:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that the speedy renaming criteria should also apply to speedy merging, i.e. the same case as a speedy rename, but the target also exists. The only problem I can see with this is if we have two categories on different topics which are a 'speedy merge' away from each other. Any thoughs? Objections? SeventyThree( Talk) 03:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Where can a review of deletion/re-naming decision be taken up? TIA, -- Gurubrahma 12:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This policy has details of 'how' to do deletes, but lacks detail on certain critical 'who' and 'why'. For example, it is not clear, given the meaning of Wikipedia:Consensus, that a consensus can be produced by several editors just saying 'keep' or 'delete' with no reasoning provided. Voting cannot, in and of itself, produce consensus; it just produces a vote count. Also, "who" has the authority to decide whether there is a 'consensus' and whether the 'consensus' is to 'keep' or 'delete'?
More importantly, there should be a large distinction between renaming categories and deleting categories. Renaming is often an improvement. On the other hand, absolute deletion destroys the work of many editors and should be undertaken only in extreme circumstances, when clearly defined policies of Wikipedia are violated by retaining the categories. (Whatever these policies are also need to be found and reviewed.) The distaste of those editors who actually monitor the 'categories for deletion' page should never be held in higher regard than the article/category editors who created and used the categories, not higher than the readers who might benefit from the categories in question. Thanks Hmains 01:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The Speedy criteria are used in two places, and had diverged slightly. Also, typographical errors fixed here had not been fixed at WP:CFDS. They now both use Wikipedia:Category deletion policy/Speedy criteria.
Templates for deletion states:
Is it reasonable to expect that the same process should take place here, with respect to maintenance categories? -- nae' blis 16:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
This was crossposted and has little to do with the specific workings of this page. Please discuss at Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#Informing the creators is being ignored. The comments have already been moved. Please do not spam such complaints across multiple pages. Rossami (talk) 19:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
The policy deals with these category classifications:
Where is the policy for categories that don't fall into one of these classificatons? (See Category:Fauna by country and its attendant discussion page as an example.)— Chidom talk 19:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Whether here or elsewhere, the policy regarding deleting subcategories of nominated categories needs to be specifically spelled out. What is listed at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion#Procedure III. is not clear enough; it says to list the subcategories (though even that is not really clear); nowhere is it stated that all subcategories need the {{ cfd}} tag added on their pages as well. My personal opinion is that requiring the {{ cfd}} tag to be placed on every subcategory page will discourage or preclude categories with massive numbers of subcats from being nominated for deletion. (Again, see Category:Fauna by country and its discussion page.) I added the tag on 133 subcategory pages. Since I don't know how to write bots, this was largely done by hand. I do have the advantage of a macro program that helped somewhat, but it was still an onerous manual task. I have posted this comment on the talk page for Wikipedia:Categories for discussion as well.— Chidom talk 19:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Is this a subpage of some other policy? I'm trying to find how to get categories renamed, and Wikipedia:Renaming categories redirects here, but there's actually no information on how to rename categories that aren't speedy renames. What's missing? Stevage 09:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed
"* Link to precedent-setting conversations from /resolved."
from the closure section as this is never done. See Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/resolved's history Tim! 18:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
and also "* Save interesting conversations in /resolved; discard uninteresting conversations."
I wonder who would have decided which CFD discussions are interesting? ;) Tim! 18:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this section could do with overhauling. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/unresolved is marked as historical. I would recommend removing
and possibly add relisting on CFD as an alternative to closing as keep (I occaisionly do this where only limited discussion has taken place). Tim! 18:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I also wonder at the necessity of waiting 30 days to delete an empty category when it has been nominated but achieved no consensus. Tim! 18:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've renamed the policy page as Wikipedia:Categories for Discussion policies which is how it was described in the templates. I agree that the guidance is still confusing to the newbie and wants more rearranging. - Fayenatic london (talk) 21:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Do categories such as Category:Shadyville Entertainment artists get deleted, since there is no " Shadyville Entertainment" article? I mean, categories for artists of certain record labels, but there is no page for that record label. --- Who's the one you call Mr. Macho? The head honcho, swift fist like Camacho 03:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is the "Closing debates" section listed first? Wouldn't it make more sense to put it after the parts that discuss how and why to start a category deletion debate? -- Hi Ev 09:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
While many categories maybe relevant and helpful, categorisation is not easy. For example the categorisation of psychological/affective states as emotions is contested in the specialised psychological literature. Nevertheless the category:emotion exist and may imply pyschological ideas without any source. To what extent do categories comply to core guidlines such as WP:Reliable, WP:V and WP:OR?? Arnoutf ( talk) 18:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
What's the correct answer?
There is a note on the project page stating in relation with speedy renaming and merging "If the nominator decides to change a nomination based on comments, simply delete the old nomination and create a new one as long as it still meets the speedy criteria". As of late I have noticed one nominator who has repeatedly changed his nominations and/or added other related categories to his nominations. Often this makes it impossible to know whether the opinions of commenting editors relate to the current proposal.
I propose to make the above note a little stronger "If the nominator decides to change a nomination, simply delete the old nomination and create a new one (as long as it still meets the speedy criteria)", and add a note with the same content to the project page in relation with non-speedy nominations as well. Apart from that I think changes in the nomination (apart form typos) should be sufficient reason for immediate administrative closure of the nomination. What are your opinions? Debresser ( talk) 07:39, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
I see that for clarity's sake, I have to split my proposal into three:
If the nominator decides to change a nomination based on comments, simply delete the old nomination and create a new one as long as it still meets the speedy criteria.
Debresser ( talk) 22:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)