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To help with stub sorting, I'd like to go through a large stub category (let's say Category:Araneomorphae stubs for example - none of the pages in its subcategories) and see what the most common categories on those pages are, to check if there's any more subcategories that could be made. Is there any way to do this? I don't see it in Petscan. Suntooooth, it/he ( talk/ contribs) 01:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I just had this note connected with an edit reversion. "Undid revision 1231303175 by Johnpacklambert ( talk) It is standard practice to include all such categories for professional athletes. Abbott played for 18 professional teams and they can't all be expected to be mentioned in this article. His teams are easily verified via the external links at the bottom of this article." I am sorry. This is just plain wrong practice. If we cannot be bothered to mention something in the text of an article, it is too trivial to categorize by. Categories are supposed to lead people through somewhat similar articles. A minimum expectation is that the information be mentioned in the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC) I recently had 4 articles I had edited get revered. This is the general tone of the edit summaries. "Undid revision 1231303175 by Johnpacklambert ( talk) It is standard practice to include all such categories for professional athletes. Abbott played for 18 professional teams and they can't all be expected to be mentioned in this article. His teams are easily verified via the external links at the bottom of this article." I am sorry, this is just ludicrous. First off, external links are not always reliable sources, so just using them to push categories directly is problematic. Beyond this, categories are supposed to link something that means something. They need to be "defining". If playing for a team was so non-defining to a person that we do not even mention it anywhere in the text of the article, not even in a table, we should not categorize by it. This makes me think that at some level team played for becomes to close to performance by performer categories. I am sorry, but we should not be categorizing anyone by 18 different teams played, especially with the amount of other categories sports people are placed in. At least not when we do not even mention in any way all 18 teams in the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Sounds good. Sorry for the bad baseball analogy, but playing in a game is what I meant. Semper Fi! FieldMarine ( talk) 16:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
This is what the category guideline says about categorization of burial. "If it is relevant to identify the place of burial (either from the perspective of the person or the burial place), then someone buried in a less notable cemetery, or in a place with just a few notable burials, should be recorded in a list within the article about the burial place. However, if the burial place is notable in its own right and has too many other notable people to list, then such burials may be categorized." I take this to mean the following A-our default should be creating a list at the article on the cemetery, not making a category. B-articles should be placed only in categories for burial by cemetery or cemetery like place. higher level categories seem to only exist to group these categories by cemetery, not to directly place articles. So as I am reading this we would create a list for the specific cemetery in New York City someone is buried in. If that list gets big enough that it would reasonably support a category we would create a category. We then would group those categories by city. We actually have "Category:Burials in New York City by place" that makes this clear in the title. I am not sure why the next level up, Burials in New York state, does not make this clear in the title. It might help a lot if we made it clear in the title in more categories. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
burials by place in New York (state)" but I am not sure "place" is the right word, we do not mean "populated place", we mean "cemetery or place that functions like a cemetery". I also wonder if the parent category named "burials" should be renamed to "burial" or if maybe we should create a sepeate category "burial". I am also not sure why we need say "burials by castle". I understand some castles are defining places of burial. However I am not seeing why the fact that the place of burial was a castle is of any import. I do not think this aides navigation, esepcially since it has only 3 sub-cats. We are not going to create a category "burials in castles" and place in it everyone we have reliable sources showing they were buried in a castle, so I really do not see the point in sorting by so many things. The whole burials tree seems way more complex than it needs to be. In fact with the US I am thinking we should make burials in X state by cemetery the main category, everything else looks like needless clutter. New York state have 42 categories under burials in New York (state) by cemetery. It has a further 10 categories that subdivide basically the same context by an eclectic mix of city or county. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I just came upon Indzhe Voyvoda who was in a revolutionary category. I added him to another for the state he actually lived in. However it seems odd. The article really seems to be saying he was an outlaw, a bandit, maybe a highwayman. I am not sure how he was a revolutionary. It seems the assumption is "every Bulgarian who violently resisted the rule of the Ottoman Empire was a revolutionary." This does not seem to be a good way to define the term. However I am starting to think in some cases one person's rebel is another person's revolutionary. At other times the terms get used fairly interchangeably. There are maybe 3 actual groups. 1-people who are often called "rebels", who seek to change the currently ruler, but who are content with the system as such. However I think some sources call those involved in the American Revolutionary War "rebels", and they do not fit in this group. 2-People who seek to change the system of government. Such as going for a monarchy to democracy. Or instituting a socialist revolution. 3-people who seek to end what they see as foreign control of a place. Sometimes this is obvious, such as those seeking to end British rule in India. Other times it is less clear. I knew someone who thought the Free Savoie types were a bit nutty, and did not think Savoy/Savoie was a distinct enough place for such a movement to make sense. My experience is both Revolutionary is used at times for all 3, group 3 is regularly called Revolutionary, and at times rebel. There are clearly not 3 widely used terms, which is why we do not have 3 categories. My sense is the split between rebels and revolutionaries is less than clear, especially since we have 3 terms covering 2 topics. The fact that some people seek both to overthrow outside colonial rule, and maybe institute a Communist or other drastically different form of government in the place where they are trying to end colonial rule means that 2 and 3 overlap. I am beginning to think the best solution might be to create a category called say French rebels and revolutionaries, or German rebels and revolutionaries or Rebels and revolutionaries from the Ottoman Empire, and group both. We have other compound named categories like Dramatists and playwrights. This would also avoid us having to parse out exactly what counter revolutionaries are. They are actually revolutionaries, but since sometimes "revolutionary" is used as code to mean "supports of the group that won in X revolution", it can come to be seen to have a narrow ideological meaning. A general rebels and revolutionaries category would allow for grouping people more by what they did than what they thought, especially since some people under our current system probably would count as both rebels and revolutionaries, since they were involved in multiple such movements, but we really do not need multiple such categories on the same article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I asked a question on my talk page about people in by century categories that are not meant for people. I think that might be something that people here would be interested in. I do not want to engage in over posting or forum shopping, so I am just putting notice of it here. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
So I came across a Soviet musicians who was a singer and an accordionist. I am not seeing enough Soviet accordionists who have articles to justify that Category. I am thinking that however we need him in something other than Soviet male singers. I put him in Accodinists, but still feel that another Category is needed. I actually created a Category:Soviet instrumental musicians, but noticed there is no instrumental musicians. We basically have musicians, then divide by genre and by composers, conductors (music), singers, and then specific instruments such as accordion, organ, piano, tuba, guitar, drums etc. We end up with a huge number of 1 article intersections of instrumental and nationality, especially since dome categories are things like 20th-century Norwegian accordionists, or 21st-century Irish accordionists, or 18th-century French violinists. Others are Dutch jazz trumpets or Irish classical clarinetists. We may even have 20th-century American jazz trumpeters, a 4 way intersection of instrumental, nationality, century and genre. At one point we have categories like 20th-century African-American women opera singers, which is technically a 6 way intersection of nationality, ethnicity, gender, genre and instrument (if we count voice as an instrument). African-Americans are American nationals, so I think calling it 6 way is right. It has 1 non-diffusing trait, and 1 trait where we allow an ERGS trait to diffuse. Singers we allow to diffuse by gender. Those 6 way intersection categories are no more, but we have many. They work if they can be reasonably filled. I think we need to do something about the 1 article cats. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Our article Publican is about tax collectors in antiquity. Our category Publican, is about people who operated a pub. I think we should find a way to make it more clear that the category is not meant to include people who collected taxes for the Roman Empire. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
We have a category Colonial American people. It's header says "
I think we should further rename People of the Thirteen Colonies to People from the Thirteen Colonies. The by Colony sub-cats use from, as do several others. "From" means essentially the sane thing as of. From can include those born elsewhere with an established connection. It woks way better with some subcats. A historian of the Thirteen Colonies can live anywhere, at any time after they were cemented, and if we get a painters cat the painters of the Thirteen Colonies is even worse. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
I've seen sometimes navigation templates included in category pages (for example Category:Amiga). Feels like an incorrect use of a category page but I couldn't find any guideline it goes against, closest is WP:CATDESC which says not to include refs or external links in category pages. Mika1h ( talk) 16:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
|τ
per
WP:SORTKEY, eleventh bullet (the one beginning "Sort keys may be prefixed with
Greek letters ..."). --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
18:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)I have been thinking naturalists are a good parent category to contain zoologists, botanists, etc. Other editors seem to think that naturalists, botanists, zoologists and others are sub-cats of biologists. What is clear to me is that we need a little order to avoid too much overcategorization. Basically in the 18th and 19th century you had many naturalists who observed and studied a wide range of plants and animals. We have a lot of very specific categories for studying specific types of plants and animals. Several people are in a lot of these categories. I think we should either say that Naturalist is a parent of botanist, zoologist (including ornitologists, mamaologists etc) or state that they are overlap cats, so that we only place people in the naturalists category who are not in any part of the botanists or such. We may also have to work not to diffuse people beyond their real level of specialization. For example John Abbot (entomologist) is said in the lead to have been a "naturalist and artists". He is in categories as a botanists, ornithogist and entomologist. He is in no artist category at all, and is not because of how categories are organized in the naturalist category at all. I added him to the artist tree based on the lead, but think we need to figure out the best way to place him under the scientist tree. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
Draughtsman is a disambiguation page. It lists the following. "
So why do we have a category:Draughtsmen? To make things more fun that category through the sub-cat Dutch draghtsmen, includes Jeanne Bieruma Oosting, who would be a draghtswoman. In the main it looks like most people in Category:Draughtsmen, and its various sub-categories are 2- an artits who produces drawings. We also have a seperate category Category:Drawing artists the main article on that type of art work is under the article drawing. I am thinking we would best off rename/merge Draughtsmen and its sub-cats to Drawing artists, and then create American drawing artists, British drawing artists, French drawing artists, and any other by nationality categories to match the ones we have currently. We will also want to ensure that all the people in these categories are actually drawing artists, move anyone who is not to Category:Architectural drafters, Category:Drafters for those who make non-architectural technical drawinings, and I guess if we have anyone who is a law costs draftsman (and we think it is a defining trait) we could create a category Law Costs Draftsmen, and Parliamentary draftsmen as well if we need it. I do not think we need the playing piece category at all. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 15:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
I just noticed that Category:Painters from the Republic of Venice is a child Category of Category:Painters from Venice. I think what we actually want is the categories following the an overlap Category rule, like we have with Category:French writers and Category:French-language writers. So many French writers are also French-language writers, that we have a rule that we do not put French writers in the French-language writers tree. I think that is what we want to do with Venice. The Republic of Venice include not only all the general region around Venice, but much further inland. It also included Brescia and some other places in Lombardy, various areas now in Croatia, Greece and Albania, and maybe for short times a little more. Many of the painters from other parts of the Republic of Venice did spent long times in Venice even if not born there, but not all. I think we basically can live with Painters from Venice as a category for Painters active after 1797, and Painters from the Republic of Venice for those for the previous 1000 or so years. If we have any painters from before the formation of the Republic who lived in Venice, we can consider them on a case by case basis. I know some think it is OK to do loose association children categories, but I do not think this is good when it is not loose. This is not the a case like the Republic of Genoa that was very little beyond the city limits. I am not sure if any categories under Category:People from the Kingdom of Naples that are in the Category:People from Naples tree, but I would object to that placement just as much if it is happening. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 23:27, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Currently we have all people who were involved in the hat trade in the category "milliner". However per this link [ https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=18f094ea9bb8ac0e&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS962US962&sxsrf=ADLYWILKLNB9Cnrp6bIpNANIWwAwk8_rDA:1721762641923&q=milliner&si=ACC90nwZKElgOcNXBU934ENhMNgqJaF6xTl1_wSx_07dMw-0rR4VNxC4sTbNkLv8STzgLZlrh7oqYXjlUdvHki7jDMKYVGFa8HIn57m3uVgBQM416YTUye0%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiO8qLV8b2HAxUJm4kEHZwUBtsQ2v4IegQIKBAU&biw=1600&bih=739&dpr=1 a milliner was someone who made and sold '''women''''s hats. People involved in selling men's hats were just called hatter. In a article like Thomas Henshaw (benefactor) the article itself calls him a "hatter" and then we introduce the term "milliner" in the categories. That is less than ideal. We could change the article to put (milliner) in parenthesis. However since not all hatters were milliners, only those involved with women's hats, I think we probably should just rename the categories to "hatters". I am not sure there is enough people involved with article to justify having distinct categories for "hatters" involved with men's hats and milliners involved with women's hats. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
We have decided that deaths by place is not defining. So "deaths in Virginia" does not contain any biographical articles (or at least it is not supposed to, I did not check recently). We have also decided that not all diseases or infectious diseases, of other possible causes of death are defining causes of death that we categorize by. Because of this I think we should make the sub-categories by place of those categories (deaths from disease, deaths from infectious diseases, this principal may apply to other possible categories), and make Category:Deaths from disease and Category:Deaths from infectious disease into container categories. We currently have people in them, but I do not think that some died from disease or an infectious-disease is defining per se, only some specific disease causes of death. We should only put people in a category for the specific disease or diseases they died of, based on reliable sources. We should not place people in the deaths by disease category directly. At a lower level "deaths in India by disease" and "deaths in India by infectious disease" should only contain specific subcategories for specific diseases, not articles on people either for whom we cannot define the disease or that disease does not have a specific catehory for India (as an example, this applies to all places). Because we do not categorize by place of death we essentially first move a person to the specific cause of death. Be it cholera, bubonic plague or any other cause we feel is a justifiable category. We then subdivide these cause of death categories by various places to aid navigation. However we should only do this for the specific cause of death, not a vague grouping. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 01:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Should the DEFAULTSORT for The Salt Path (film) be ["Salt Path, The (film)" or "Salt Path (film), The"?
A recent edit by @ Fuddle: changed it from the former to the latter and I want to revert but would like to see documentation or consensus to quote when doing so, especially as it was done using a tool or gadget called "Cold Default Sort".
It seems more logical, to me, to sort all articles with the title "The Salt Path" together, after any (hypothetical) works "A Salt Path" and before "Salt Path Adventure", and keep the bracketed disambiguator as the final element.
Should this be added to the documentation? Or have I got it wrong? Pam D 05:08, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Salt Path, The film
or Salt Path film, The
. That apart, I can see arguments on both sides. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
09:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Commas can be added when re-ordering words, as in the previous example.-- Redrose64 🌹 ( talk) 11:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
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To help with stub sorting, I'd like to go through a large stub category (let's say Category:Araneomorphae stubs for example - none of the pages in its subcategories) and see what the most common categories on those pages are, to check if there's any more subcategories that could be made. Is there any way to do this? I don't see it in Petscan. Suntooooth, it/he ( talk/ contribs) 01:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I just had this note connected with an edit reversion. "Undid revision 1231303175 by Johnpacklambert ( talk) It is standard practice to include all such categories for professional athletes. Abbott played for 18 professional teams and they can't all be expected to be mentioned in this article. His teams are easily verified via the external links at the bottom of this article." I am sorry. This is just plain wrong practice. If we cannot be bothered to mention something in the text of an article, it is too trivial to categorize by. Categories are supposed to lead people through somewhat similar articles. A minimum expectation is that the information be mentioned in the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC) I recently had 4 articles I had edited get revered. This is the general tone of the edit summaries. "Undid revision 1231303175 by Johnpacklambert ( talk) It is standard practice to include all such categories for professional athletes. Abbott played for 18 professional teams and they can't all be expected to be mentioned in this article. His teams are easily verified via the external links at the bottom of this article." I am sorry, this is just ludicrous. First off, external links are not always reliable sources, so just using them to push categories directly is problematic. Beyond this, categories are supposed to link something that means something. They need to be "defining". If playing for a team was so non-defining to a person that we do not even mention it anywhere in the text of the article, not even in a table, we should not categorize by it. This makes me think that at some level team played for becomes to close to performance by performer categories. I am sorry, but we should not be categorizing anyone by 18 different teams played, especially with the amount of other categories sports people are placed in. At least not when we do not even mention in any way all 18 teams in the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Sounds good. Sorry for the bad baseball analogy, but playing in a game is what I meant. Semper Fi! FieldMarine ( talk) 16:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
This is what the category guideline says about categorization of burial. "If it is relevant to identify the place of burial (either from the perspective of the person or the burial place), then someone buried in a less notable cemetery, or in a place with just a few notable burials, should be recorded in a list within the article about the burial place. However, if the burial place is notable in its own right and has too many other notable people to list, then such burials may be categorized." I take this to mean the following A-our default should be creating a list at the article on the cemetery, not making a category. B-articles should be placed only in categories for burial by cemetery or cemetery like place. higher level categories seem to only exist to group these categories by cemetery, not to directly place articles. So as I am reading this we would create a list for the specific cemetery in New York City someone is buried in. If that list gets big enough that it would reasonably support a category we would create a category. We then would group those categories by city. We actually have "Category:Burials in New York City by place" that makes this clear in the title. I am not sure why the next level up, Burials in New York state, does not make this clear in the title. It might help a lot if we made it clear in the title in more categories. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
burials by place in New York (state)" but I am not sure "place" is the right word, we do not mean "populated place", we mean "cemetery or place that functions like a cemetery". I also wonder if the parent category named "burials" should be renamed to "burial" or if maybe we should create a sepeate category "burial". I am also not sure why we need say "burials by castle". I understand some castles are defining places of burial. However I am not seeing why the fact that the place of burial was a castle is of any import. I do not think this aides navigation, esepcially since it has only 3 sub-cats. We are not going to create a category "burials in castles" and place in it everyone we have reliable sources showing they were buried in a castle, so I really do not see the point in sorting by so many things. The whole burials tree seems way more complex than it needs to be. In fact with the US I am thinking we should make burials in X state by cemetery the main category, everything else looks like needless clutter. New York state have 42 categories under burials in New York (state) by cemetery. It has a further 10 categories that subdivide basically the same context by an eclectic mix of city or county. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I just came upon Indzhe Voyvoda who was in a revolutionary category. I added him to another for the state he actually lived in. However it seems odd. The article really seems to be saying he was an outlaw, a bandit, maybe a highwayman. I am not sure how he was a revolutionary. It seems the assumption is "every Bulgarian who violently resisted the rule of the Ottoman Empire was a revolutionary." This does not seem to be a good way to define the term. However I am starting to think in some cases one person's rebel is another person's revolutionary. At other times the terms get used fairly interchangeably. There are maybe 3 actual groups. 1-people who are often called "rebels", who seek to change the currently ruler, but who are content with the system as such. However I think some sources call those involved in the American Revolutionary War "rebels", and they do not fit in this group. 2-People who seek to change the system of government. Such as going for a monarchy to democracy. Or instituting a socialist revolution. 3-people who seek to end what they see as foreign control of a place. Sometimes this is obvious, such as those seeking to end British rule in India. Other times it is less clear. I knew someone who thought the Free Savoie types were a bit nutty, and did not think Savoy/Savoie was a distinct enough place for such a movement to make sense. My experience is both Revolutionary is used at times for all 3, group 3 is regularly called Revolutionary, and at times rebel. There are clearly not 3 widely used terms, which is why we do not have 3 categories. My sense is the split between rebels and revolutionaries is less than clear, especially since we have 3 terms covering 2 topics. The fact that some people seek both to overthrow outside colonial rule, and maybe institute a Communist or other drastically different form of government in the place where they are trying to end colonial rule means that 2 and 3 overlap. I am beginning to think the best solution might be to create a category called say French rebels and revolutionaries, or German rebels and revolutionaries or Rebels and revolutionaries from the Ottoman Empire, and group both. We have other compound named categories like Dramatists and playwrights. This would also avoid us having to parse out exactly what counter revolutionaries are. They are actually revolutionaries, but since sometimes "revolutionary" is used as code to mean "supports of the group that won in X revolution", it can come to be seen to have a narrow ideological meaning. A general rebels and revolutionaries category would allow for grouping people more by what they did than what they thought, especially since some people under our current system probably would count as both rebels and revolutionaries, since they were involved in multiple such movements, but we really do not need multiple such categories on the same article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I asked a question on my talk page about people in by century categories that are not meant for people. I think that might be something that people here would be interested in. I do not want to engage in over posting or forum shopping, so I am just putting notice of it here. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
So I came across a Soviet musicians who was a singer and an accordionist. I am not seeing enough Soviet accordionists who have articles to justify that Category. I am thinking that however we need him in something other than Soviet male singers. I put him in Accodinists, but still feel that another Category is needed. I actually created a Category:Soviet instrumental musicians, but noticed there is no instrumental musicians. We basically have musicians, then divide by genre and by composers, conductors (music), singers, and then specific instruments such as accordion, organ, piano, tuba, guitar, drums etc. We end up with a huge number of 1 article intersections of instrumental and nationality, especially since dome categories are things like 20th-century Norwegian accordionists, or 21st-century Irish accordionists, or 18th-century French violinists. Others are Dutch jazz trumpets or Irish classical clarinetists. We may even have 20th-century American jazz trumpeters, a 4 way intersection of instrumental, nationality, century and genre. At one point we have categories like 20th-century African-American women opera singers, which is technically a 6 way intersection of nationality, ethnicity, gender, genre and instrument (if we count voice as an instrument). African-Americans are American nationals, so I think calling it 6 way is right. It has 1 non-diffusing trait, and 1 trait where we allow an ERGS trait to diffuse. Singers we allow to diffuse by gender. Those 6 way intersection categories are no more, but we have many. They work if they can be reasonably filled. I think we need to do something about the 1 article cats. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Our article Publican is about tax collectors in antiquity. Our category Publican, is about people who operated a pub. I think we should find a way to make it more clear that the category is not meant to include people who collected taxes for the Roman Empire. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
We have a category Colonial American people. It's header says "
I think we should further rename People of the Thirteen Colonies to People from the Thirteen Colonies. The by Colony sub-cats use from, as do several others. "From" means essentially the sane thing as of. From can include those born elsewhere with an established connection. It woks way better with some subcats. A historian of the Thirteen Colonies can live anywhere, at any time after they were cemented, and if we get a painters cat the painters of the Thirteen Colonies is even worse. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
I've seen sometimes navigation templates included in category pages (for example Category:Amiga). Feels like an incorrect use of a category page but I couldn't find any guideline it goes against, closest is WP:CATDESC which says not to include refs or external links in category pages. Mika1h ( talk) 16:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
|τ
per
WP:SORTKEY, eleventh bullet (the one beginning "Sort keys may be prefixed with
Greek letters ..."). --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
18:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)I have been thinking naturalists are a good parent category to contain zoologists, botanists, etc. Other editors seem to think that naturalists, botanists, zoologists and others are sub-cats of biologists. What is clear to me is that we need a little order to avoid too much overcategorization. Basically in the 18th and 19th century you had many naturalists who observed and studied a wide range of plants and animals. We have a lot of very specific categories for studying specific types of plants and animals. Several people are in a lot of these categories. I think we should either say that Naturalist is a parent of botanist, zoologist (including ornitologists, mamaologists etc) or state that they are overlap cats, so that we only place people in the naturalists category who are not in any part of the botanists or such. We may also have to work not to diffuse people beyond their real level of specialization. For example John Abbot (entomologist) is said in the lead to have been a "naturalist and artists". He is in categories as a botanists, ornithogist and entomologist. He is in no artist category at all, and is not because of how categories are organized in the naturalist category at all. I added him to the artist tree based on the lead, but think we need to figure out the best way to place him under the scientist tree. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
Draughtsman is a disambiguation page. It lists the following. "
So why do we have a category:Draughtsmen? To make things more fun that category through the sub-cat Dutch draghtsmen, includes Jeanne Bieruma Oosting, who would be a draghtswoman. In the main it looks like most people in Category:Draughtsmen, and its various sub-categories are 2- an artits who produces drawings. We also have a seperate category Category:Drawing artists the main article on that type of art work is under the article drawing. I am thinking we would best off rename/merge Draughtsmen and its sub-cats to Drawing artists, and then create American drawing artists, British drawing artists, French drawing artists, and any other by nationality categories to match the ones we have currently. We will also want to ensure that all the people in these categories are actually drawing artists, move anyone who is not to Category:Architectural drafters, Category:Drafters for those who make non-architectural technical drawinings, and I guess if we have anyone who is a law costs draftsman (and we think it is a defining trait) we could create a category Law Costs Draftsmen, and Parliamentary draftsmen as well if we need it. I do not think we need the playing piece category at all. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 15:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
I just noticed that Category:Painters from the Republic of Venice is a child Category of Category:Painters from Venice. I think what we actually want is the categories following the an overlap Category rule, like we have with Category:French writers and Category:French-language writers. So many French writers are also French-language writers, that we have a rule that we do not put French writers in the French-language writers tree. I think that is what we want to do with Venice. The Republic of Venice include not only all the general region around Venice, but much further inland. It also included Brescia and some other places in Lombardy, various areas now in Croatia, Greece and Albania, and maybe for short times a little more. Many of the painters from other parts of the Republic of Venice did spent long times in Venice even if not born there, but not all. I think we basically can live with Painters from Venice as a category for Painters active after 1797, and Painters from the Republic of Venice for those for the previous 1000 or so years. If we have any painters from before the formation of the Republic who lived in Venice, we can consider them on a case by case basis. I know some think it is OK to do loose association children categories, but I do not think this is good when it is not loose. This is not the a case like the Republic of Genoa that was very little beyond the city limits. I am not sure if any categories under Category:People from the Kingdom of Naples that are in the Category:People from Naples tree, but I would object to that placement just as much if it is happening. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 23:27, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Currently we have all people who were involved in the hat trade in the category "milliner". However per this link [ https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=18f094ea9bb8ac0e&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS962US962&sxsrf=ADLYWILKLNB9Cnrp6bIpNANIWwAwk8_rDA:1721762641923&q=milliner&si=ACC90nwZKElgOcNXBU934ENhMNgqJaF6xTl1_wSx_07dMw-0rR4VNxC4sTbNkLv8STzgLZlrh7oqYXjlUdvHki7jDMKYVGFa8HIn57m3uVgBQM416YTUye0%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiO8qLV8b2HAxUJm4kEHZwUBtsQ2v4IegQIKBAU&biw=1600&bih=739&dpr=1 a milliner was someone who made and sold '''women''''s hats. People involved in selling men's hats were just called hatter. In a article like Thomas Henshaw (benefactor) the article itself calls him a "hatter" and then we introduce the term "milliner" in the categories. That is less than ideal. We could change the article to put (milliner) in parenthesis. However since not all hatters were milliners, only those involved with women's hats, I think we probably should just rename the categories to "hatters". I am not sure there is enough people involved with article to justify having distinct categories for "hatters" involved with men's hats and milliners involved with women's hats. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
We have decided that deaths by place is not defining. So "deaths in Virginia" does not contain any biographical articles (or at least it is not supposed to, I did not check recently). We have also decided that not all diseases or infectious diseases, of other possible causes of death are defining causes of death that we categorize by. Because of this I think we should make the sub-categories by place of those categories (deaths from disease, deaths from infectious diseases, this principal may apply to other possible categories), and make Category:Deaths from disease and Category:Deaths from infectious disease into container categories. We currently have people in them, but I do not think that some died from disease or an infectious-disease is defining per se, only some specific disease causes of death. We should only put people in a category for the specific disease or diseases they died of, based on reliable sources. We should not place people in the deaths by disease category directly. At a lower level "deaths in India by disease" and "deaths in India by infectious disease" should only contain specific subcategories for specific diseases, not articles on people either for whom we cannot define the disease or that disease does not have a specific catehory for India (as an example, this applies to all places). Because we do not categorize by place of death we essentially first move a person to the specific cause of death. Be it cholera, bubonic plague or any other cause we feel is a justifiable category. We then subdivide these cause of death categories by various places to aid navigation. However we should only do this for the specific cause of death, not a vague grouping. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 01:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Should the DEFAULTSORT for The Salt Path (film) be ["Salt Path, The (film)" or "Salt Path (film), The"?
A recent edit by @ Fuddle: changed it from the former to the latter and I want to revert but would like to see documentation or consensus to quote when doing so, especially as it was done using a tool or gadget called "Cold Default Sort".
It seems more logical, to me, to sort all articles with the title "The Salt Path" together, after any (hypothetical) works "A Salt Path" and before "Salt Path Adventure", and keep the bracketed disambiguator as the final element.
Should this be added to the documentation? Or have I got it wrong? Pam D 05:08, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Salt Path, The film
or Salt Path film, The
. That apart, I can see arguments on both sides. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
09:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Commas can be added when re-ordering words, as in the previous example.-- Redrose64 🌹 ( talk) 11:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC)