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To help with stub sorting, I'd like to go through a large stub category (let's say Category:Araneomorphae stubs for example - none of the pages in its subcategories) and see what the most common categories on those pages are, to check if there's any more subcategories that could be made. Is there any way to do this? I don't see it in Petscan. Suntooooth, it/he ( talk/ contribs) 01:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I just had this note connected with an edit reversion. "Undid revision 1231303175 by Johnpacklambert ( talk) It is standard practice to include all such categories for professional athletes. Abbott played for 18 professional teams and they can't all be expected to be mentioned in this article. His teams are easily verified via the external links at the bottom of this article." I am sorry. This is just plain wrong practice. If we cannot be bothered to mention something in the text of an article, it is too trivial to categorize by. Categories are supposed to lead people through somewhat similar articles. A minimum expectation is that the information be mentioned in the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC) I recently had 4 articles I had edited get revered. This is the general tone of the edit summaries. "Undid revision 1231303175 by Johnpacklambert ( talk) It is standard practice to include all such categories for professional athletes. Abbott played for 18 professional teams and they can't all be expected to be mentioned in this article. His teams are easily verified via the external links at the bottom of this article." I am sorry, this is just ludicrous. First off, external links are not always reliable sources, so just using them to push categories directly is problematic. Beyond this, categories are supposed to link something that means something. They need to be "defining". If playing for a team was so non-defining to a person that we do not even mention it anywhere in the text of the article, not even in a table, we should not categorize by it. This makes me think that at some level team played for becomes to close to performance by performer categories. I am sorry, but we should not be categorizing anyone by 18 different teams played, especially with the amount of other categories sports people are placed in. At least not when we do not even mention in any way all 18 teams in the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Sounds good. Sorry for the bad baseball analogy, but playing in a game is what I meant. Semper Fi! FieldMarine ( talk) 16:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
This is what the category guideline says about categorization of burial. "If it is relevant to identify the place of burial (either from the perspective of the person or the burial place), then someone buried in a less notable cemetery, or in a place with just a few notable burials, should be recorded in a list within the article about the burial place. However, if the burial place is notable in its own right and has too many other notable people to list, then such burials may be categorized." I take this to mean the following A-our default should be creating a list at the article on the cemetery, not making a category. B-articles should be placed only in categories for burial by cemetery or cemetery like place. higher level categories seem to only exist to group these categories by cemetery, not to directly place articles. So as I am reading this we would create a list for the specific cemetery in New York City someone is buried in. If that list gets big enough that it would reasonably support a category we would create a category. We then would group those categories by city. We actually have "Category:Burials in New York City by place" that makes this clear in the title. I am not sure why the next level up, Burials in New York state, does not make this clear in the title. It might help a lot if we made it clear in the title in more categories. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
burials by place in New York (state)" but I am not sure "place" is the right word, we do not mean "populated place", we mean "cemetery or place that functions like a cemetery". I also wonder if the parent category named "burials" should be renamed to "burial" or if maybe we should create a sepeate category "burial". I am also not sure why we need say "burials by castle". I understand some castles are defining places of burial. However I am not seeing why the fact that the place of burial was a castle is of any import. I do not think this aides navigation, esepcially since it has only 3 sub-cats. We are not going to create a category "burials in castles" and place in it everyone we have reliable sources showing they were buried in a castle, so I really do not see the point in sorting by so many things. The whole burials tree seems way more complex than it needs to be. In fact with the US I am thinking we should make burials in X state by cemetery the main category, everything else looks like needless clutter. New York state have 42 categories under burials in New York (state) by cemetery. It has a further 10 categories that subdivide basically the same context by an eclectic mix of city or county. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I just came upon Indzhe Voyvoda who was in a revolutionary category. I added him to another for the state he actually lived in. However it seems odd. The article really seems to be saying he was an outlaw, a bandit, maybe a highwayman. I am not sure how he was a revolutionary. It seems the assumption is "every Bulgarian who violently resisted the rule of the Ottoman Empire was a revolutionary." This does not seem to be a good way to define the term. However I am starting to think in some cases one person's rebel is another person's revolutionary. At other times the terms get used fairly interchangeably. There are maybe 3 actual groups. 1-people who are often called "rebels", who seek to change the currently ruler, but who are content with the system as such. However I think some sources call those involved in the American Revolutionary War "rebels", and they do not fit in this group. 2-People who seek to change the system of government. Such as going for a monarchy to democracy. Or instituting a socialist revolution. 3-people who seek to end what they see as foreign control of a place. Sometimes this is obvious, such as those seeking to end British rule in India. Other times it is less clear. I knew someone who thought the Free Savoie types were a bit nutty, and did not think Savoy/Savoie was a distinct enough place for such a movement to make sense. My experience is both Revolutionary is used at times for all 3, group 3 is regularly called Revolutionary, and at times rebel. There are clearly not 3 widely used terms, which is why we do not have 3 categories. My sense is the split between rebels and revolutionaries is less than clear, especially since we have 3 terms covering 2 topics. The fact that some people seek both to overthrow outside colonial rule, and maybe institute a Communist or other drastically different form of government in the place where they are trying to end colonial rule means that 2 and 3 overlap. I am beginning to think the best solution might be to create a category called say French rebels and revolutionaries, or German rebels and revolutionaries or Rebels and revolutionaries from the Ottoman Empire, and group both. We have other compound named categories like Dramatists and playwrights. This would also avoid us having to parse out exactly what counter revolutionaries are. They are actually revolutionaries, but since sometimes "revolutionary" is used as code to mean "supports of the group that won in X revolution", it can come to be seen to have a narrow ideological meaning. A general rebels and revolutionaries category would allow for grouping people more by what they did than what they thought, especially since some people under our current system probably would count as both rebels and revolutionaries, since they were involved in multiple such movements, but we really do not need multiple such categories on the same article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I asked a question on my talk page about people in by century categories that are not meant for people. I think that might be something that people here would be interested in. I do not want to engage in over posting or forum shopping, so I am just putting notice of it here. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
So I came across a Soviet musicians who was a singer and an accordionist. I am not seeing enough Soviet accordionists who have articles to justify that Category. I am thinking that however we need him in something other than Soviet male singers. I put him in Accodinists, but still feel that another Category is needed. I actually created a Category:Soviet instrumental musicians, but noticed there is no instrumental musicians. We basically have musicians, then divide by genre and by composers, conductors (music), singers, and then specific instruments such as accordion, organ, piano, tuba, guitar, drums etc. We end up with a huge number of 1 article intersections of instrumental and nationality, especially since dome categories are things like 20th-century Norwegian accordionists, or 21st-century Irish accordionists, or 18th-century French violinists. Others are Dutch jazz trumpets or Irish classical clarinetists. We may even have 20th-century American jazz trumpeters, a 4 way intersection of instrumental, nationality, century and genre. At one point we have categories like 20th-century African-American women opera singers, which is technically a 6 way intersection of nationality, ethnicity, gender, genre and instrument (if we count voice as an instrument). African-Americans are American nationals, so I think calling it 6 way is right. It has 1 non-diffusing trait, and 1 trait where we allow an ERGS trait to diffuse. Singers we allow to diffuse by gender. Those 6 way intersection categories are no more, but we have many. They work if they can be reasonably filled. I think we need to do something about the 1 article cats. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Our article Publican is about tax collectors in antiquity. Our category Publican, is about people who operated a pub. I think we should find a way to make it more clear that the category is not meant to include people who collected taxes for the Roman Empire. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
We have a category Colonial American people. It's header says "
I think we should further rename People of the Thirteen Colonies to People from the Thirteen Colonies. The by Colony sub-cats use from, as do several others. "From" means essentially the sane thing as of. From can include those born elsewhere with an established connection. It woks way better with some subcats. A historian of the Thirteen Colonies can live anywhere, at any time after they were cemented, and if we get a painters cat the painters of the Thirteen Colonies is even worse. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
I've seen sometimes navigation templates included in category pages (for example Category:Amiga). Feels like an incorrect use of a category page but I couldn't find any guideline it goes against, closest is WP:CATDESC which says not to include refs or external links in category pages. Mika1h ( talk) 16:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
|τ
per
WP:SORTKEY, eleventh bullet (the one beginning "Sort keys may be prefixed with
Greek letters ..."). --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
18:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Categorization page. |
|
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
8,
9,
10,
11,
12,
13,
14,
15,
16,
17,
18Auto-archiving period: 40 days
![]() |
![]() | This page is for discussing the Wikipedia:Categorization guideline only. For any other comments add them to the WikiProject Categories talk page. |
![]() |
Manual of Style ![]() ![]() | |||||||||
|
![]() | Categories | |||
|
To help with stub sorting, I'd like to go through a large stub category (let's say Category:Araneomorphae stubs for example - none of the pages in its subcategories) and see what the most common categories on those pages are, to check if there's any more subcategories that could be made. Is there any way to do this? I don't see it in Petscan. Suntooooth, it/he ( talk/ contribs) 01:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
I just had this note connected with an edit reversion. "Undid revision 1231303175 by Johnpacklambert ( talk) It is standard practice to include all such categories for professional athletes. Abbott played for 18 professional teams and they can't all be expected to be mentioned in this article. His teams are easily verified via the external links at the bottom of this article." I am sorry. This is just plain wrong practice. If we cannot be bothered to mention something in the text of an article, it is too trivial to categorize by. Categories are supposed to lead people through somewhat similar articles. A minimum expectation is that the information be mentioned in the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC) I recently had 4 articles I had edited get revered. This is the general tone of the edit summaries. "Undid revision 1231303175 by Johnpacklambert ( talk) It is standard practice to include all such categories for professional athletes. Abbott played for 18 professional teams and they can't all be expected to be mentioned in this article. His teams are easily verified via the external links at the bottom of this article." I am sorry, this is just ludicrous. First off, external links are not always reliable sources, so just using them to push categories directly is problematic. Beyond this, categories are supposed to link something that means something. They need to be "defining". If playing for a team was so non-defining to a person that we do not even mention it anywhere in the text of the article, not even in a table, we should not categorize by it. This makes me think that at some level team played for becomes to close to performance by performer categories. I am sorry, but we should not be categorizing anyone by 18 different teams played, especially with the amount of other categories sports people are placed in. At least not when we do not even mention in any way all 18 teams in the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
Sounds good. Sorry for the bad baseball analogy, but playing in a game is what I meant. Semper Fi! FieldMarine ( talk) 16:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
This is what the category guideline says about categorization of burial. "If it is relevant to identify the place of burial (either from the perspective of the person or the burial place), then someone buried in a less notable cemetery, or in a place with just a few notable burials, should be recorded in a list within the article about the burial place. However, if the burial place is notable in its own right and has too many other notable people to list, then such burials may be categorized." I take this to mean the following A-our default should be creating a list at the article on the cemetery, not making a category. B-articles should be placed only in categories for burial by cemetery or cemetery like place. higher level categories seem to only exist to group these categories by cemetery, not to directly place articles. So as I am reading this we would create a list for the specific cemetery in New York City someone is buried in. If that list gets big enough that it would reasonably support a category we would create a category. We then would group those categories by city. We actually have "Category:Burials in New York City by place" that makes this clear in the title. I am not sure why the next level up, Burials in New York state, does not make this clear in the title. It might help a lot if we made it clear in the title in more categories. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:31, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
burials by place in New York (state)" but I am not sure "place" is the right word, we do not mean "populated place", we mean "cemetery or place that functions like a cemetery". I also wonder if the parent category named "burials" should be renamed to "burial" or if maybe we should create a sepeate category "burial". I am also not sure why we need say "burials by castle". I understand some castles are defining places of burial. However I am not seeing why the fact that the place of burial was a castle is of any import. I do not think this aides navigation, esepcially since it has only 3 sub-cats. We are not going to create a category "burials in castles" and place in it everyone we have reliable sources showing they were buried in a castle, so I really do not see the point in sorting by so many things. The whole burials tree seems way more complex than it needs to be. In fact with the US I am thinking we should make burials in X state by cemetery the main category, everything else looks like needless clutter. New York state have 42 categories under burials in New York (state) by cemetery. It has a further 10 categories that subdivide basically the same context by an eclectic mix of city or county. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 16:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I just came upon Indzhe Voyvoda who was in a revolutionary category. I added him to another for the state he actually lived in. However it seems odd. The article really seems to be saying he was an outlaw, a bandit, maybe a highwayman. I am not sure how he was a revolutionary. It seems the assumption is "every Bulgarian who violently resisted the rule of the Ottoman Empire was a revolutionary." This does not seem to be a good way to define the term. However I am starting to think in some cases one person's rebel is another person's revolutionary. At other times the terms get used fairly interchangeably. There are maybe 3 actual groups. 1-people who are often called "rebels", who seek to change the currently ruler, but who are content with the system as such. However I think some sources call those involved in the American Revolutionary War "rebels", and they do not fit in this group. 2-People who seek to change the system of government. Such as going for a monarchy to democracy. Or instituting a socialist revolution. 3-people who seek to end what they see as foreign control of a place. Sometimes this is obvious, such as those seeking to end British rule in India. Other times it is less clear. I knew someone who thought the Free Savoie types were a bit nutty, and did not think Savoy/Savoie was a distinct enough place for such a movement to make sense. My experience is both Revolutionary is used at times for all 3, group 3 is regularly called Revolutionary, and at times rebel. There are clearly not 3 widely used terms, which is why we do not have 3 categories. My sense is the split between rebels and revolutionaries is less than clear, especially since we have 3 terms covering 2 topics. The fact that some people seek both to overthrow outside colonial rule, and maybe institute a Communist or other drastically different form of government in the place where they are trying to end colonial rule means that 2 and 3 overlap. I am beginning to think the best solution might be to create a category called say French rebels and revolutionaries, or German rebels and revolutionaries or Rebels and revolutionaries from the Ottoman Empire, and group both. We have other compound named categories like Dramatists and playwrights. This would also avoid us having to parse out exactly what counter revolutionaries are. They are actually revolutionaries, but since sometimes "revolutionary" is used as code to mean "supports of the group that won in X revolution", it can come to be seen to have a narrow ideological meaning. A general rebels and revolutionaries category would allow for grouping people more by what they did than what they thought, especially since some people under our current system probably would count as both rebels and revolutionaries, since they were involved in multiple such movements, but we really do not need multiple such categories on the same article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:42, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
I asked a question on my talk page about people in by century categories that are not meant for people. I think that might be something that people here would be interested in. I do not want to engage in over posting or forum shopping, so I am just putting notice of it here. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:48, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
So I came across a Soviet musicians who was a singer and an accordionist. I am not seeing enough Soviet accordionists who have articles to justify that Category. I am thinking that however we need him in something other than Soviet male singers. I put him in Accodinists, but still feel that another Category is needed. I actually created a Category:Soviet instrumental musicians, but noticed there is no instrumental musicians. We basically have musicians, then divide by genre and by composers, conductors (music), singers, and then specific instruments such as accordion, organ, piano, tuba, guitar, drums etc. We end up with a huge number of 1 article intersections of instrumental and nationality, especially since dome categories are things like 20th-century Norwegian accordionists, or 21st-century Irish accordionists, or 18th-century French violinists. Others are Dutch jazz trumpets or Irish classical clarinetists. We may even have 20th-century American jazz trumpeters, a 4 way intersection of instrumental, nationality, century and genre. At one point we have categories like 20th-century African-American women opera singers, which is technically a 6 way intersection of nationality, ethnicity, gender, genre and instrument (if we count voice as an instrument). African-Americans are American nationals, so I think calling it 6 way is right. It has 1 non-diffusing trait, and 1 trait where we allow an ERGS trait to diffuse. Singers we allow to diffuse by gender. Those 6 way intersection categories are no more, but we have many. They work if they can be reasonably filled. I think we need to do something about the 1 article cats. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:32, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Our article Publican is about tax collectors in antiquity. Our category Publican, is about people who operated a pub. I think we should find a way to make it more clear that the category is not meant to include people who collected taxes for the Roman Empire. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:43, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
We have a category Colonial American people. It's header says "
I think we should further rename People of the Thirteen Colonies to People from the Thirteen Colonies. The by Colony sub-cats use from, as do several others. "From" means essentially the sane thing as of. From can include those born elsewhere with an established connection. It woks way better with some subcats. A historian of the Thirteen Colonies can live anywhere, at any time after they were cemented, and if we get a painters cat the painters of the Thirteen Colonies is even worse. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 00:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
I've seen sometimes navigation templates included in category pages (for example Category:Amiga). Feels like an incorrect use of a category page but I couldn't find any guideline it goes against, closest is WP:CATDESC which says not to include refs or external links in category pages. Mika1h ( talk) 16:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
|τ
per
WP:SORTKEY, eleventh bullet (the one beginning "Sort keys may be prefixed with
Greek letters ..."). --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
18:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)