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[This section and the next few ones are being moved to Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
Hello, I've just created a seperate page proposing guidlines for noteability of Reality TV contestants and if they should have their own articles. I did this due to the mass number of articles being created and deleted on these subjects in recent months, and confusion among editors if they are in fact noteable or not. You can read this here. All edits and comments on the talk page are welcome. Thanks, Dalejenkins | 18:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC).
Does BLP's higher standards of reliable citation apply if the subject of the BLP article is dead (but extremely popular)? It has been argued that, because the dude is dead, the normal criteria apply. I disagree, thinking about the guy's family and friends. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely. Unfortuntely, the BLP matter is complicated by an almost word for word inclusion of an uncited novel (published 24 years ago, and went out of print less than a year later). Perhaps someone a bit higher up the authority chain could visit the articles of John Lennon and May Pang; I seem to be running into a bit of resistance regarding the inclusion of uncited material, as well as the BLP harm to living persons it represents. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Should the standards of WP:BLP1E - covering the event not the person - be applied to biographies of people who are dead, especially if the one notable event is the reaction to their death. Agne Cheese/ Wine 03:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course it does. The (barely cited) information in a dead man's bio which disparages another living person (with an article) falls under BLP. Gnan, can you explain ina bit more detail about the Irwin example? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Shall I once again propose that we move this page to Wikipedia:Biographical content? violet/riga (t) 17:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I suppose another frame of reference is whether or not it's "encyclopedic" to focus on a non-notable person, instead of the event which is the only item that will have lasting encyclopedic relevance. I'm looking at this not from a perspective of whether or not the article is "damaging" or hurting anyone (which I'm afraid has become BLP's single, narrow focus) but whether or not it simply a good article that is serving our reader well in covering what is important. With the particular article that I'm currently having editorial discussions on, I am disagreeing with two editors over whether or not mundane trivial details such as the fact that girl got an elementary school reprimand as a young girl or cut her hair for charity is worthy encyclopedic content when the only thing that she is notable for is her death triggered an episode of Mourning sickness. In that context it seems the WP:BLP1E should be a guiding principle in crafting a quality article on the encyclopedic event that is notable rather then bury the article underneath a mountain of trivial and memorial like details. I suppose what I would like clarification on is whether or not that is an intent of WP:BLP1E? Agne Cheese/ Wine 18:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Two key things here. If it's not clear a person is dead then clearly BLP applies. Hopefully we can all agree with that. Secondly even if a person is dead, it doesn't mean there are no BLP concerns since there may still be other living people who will be affected by the claims Nil Einne 11:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is wording being removed from this policy that says that "Material available solely...in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all" ?
This is our Verifiability policy. It's idiotic to rewrite this policy so that it misrepresents our most basic policies of which it is supposed to be a restatement. -- Tony Sidaway 16:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Tony. I have been busy, and not paying attention to the discussion here, but BLP is really just a restatement of our other core policies, with extra penalty added, and less discussion required. I'm not saying this is happening in this case, but often editors will try to have this policy modified slightly, because it is obstructing them in a particular case. We have to look at the bigger picture. It is better to keep out or have to really fight to include a marginally includable source, than to open the floodgates to inappropriate sources. I am against any attempts to weaken this policy, or to bring it out of sync with our other policies. - Crockspot 17:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Agreed. If the single source claiming the bulimia isn't noteworthy enough, I sometimes repair the statement to the Disucssion page and ask for further or redundant independent verification (anyone who's watched the Daily Show knows how news outlets tned to parrot each other without checking the sources, either). Maybe I am wrong for doing that, but if there is a chance it is true, then it should stay within discussion, and definitely not in the article until such citation is found.
Something like this has come up on the
John Lennon and
May Pang articles, regarding their relationship. I've pulled a lot of the "Lost Weekend" stuff, as it appears that the only real source of what happened is a trashy tell-all by Pang herself, and wholly unsourced. I am getting grief over calling for its removal, citing BLP concerns (inclusion in the late Lennon's article affects both
Yoko Ono and Pang). -
Arcayne
(cast a spell) 17:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
"obscure newspapers" is a terminaly flawed phraseing. The news of the world can afford to lose the odd lible case. The local paper less so. Geni 20:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
If a negative or dodgy statement is inadequately sourced, remove it without discussion. Don't suffer the endless wankery of idiots who will seek to argue that the source is adequate. Make them establish the statement through unarguably adequate sourcing. Anything else is unacceptable. We're Wikipedia. We can afford to wait years or even decades to get things right, but meanwhile we should not accept making somebody's life unnecessarily bad for one single second. -- Tony Sidaway 22:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's try a few test cases, just to see how people believe the "obscure newspapers" clause should apply.
Reported by Matthew Barrows in the January 1, 2001, edition of The Sacramento Bee, they listed some 50 text pages and six photo captions in which Ambrose "erred, misstated the facts or used quotes that cannot be substantiated with facts". According to Barrows, Ambrose cited his son Hugh as the primary research assistant for the book and chose not to respond.
-- AnonEMouse (squeak) 19:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see any sources in those cases that I would consider "obscure". Even the local papers have editorial oversight, and are owned by companies that publish other local papers throughout the country. Obscure to me is a paper that caters to a very narrow audience, and has limited general appeal or even usefulness, in a newsworthy sense. For example, there is a paper in the SF Bay Area (can't recall the name) that has been around for a long time. It caters to the the black community, but not the black community in general, more of the Black Panther segment of the black community. It's reporting is biased, bordering on racist. That would be obscure and unreliable. One source I removed not too long ago, and again I do not recall the name, was a paper, really more of a newsletter, out of Texas, that catered to conspiracy theory oriented and ufologist readers. A lot of outrage and fist shaking, but thin on verifiable facts. That is obscure and unreliable. - Crockspot 20:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) The problem is that "obscure" doesn't mean anything like "not having editorial oversight staff". [2] The Drudge Report has no editorial oversight, but it's not at all obscure, it's quite popular. It does mean "paper that caters to a very narrow audience, and has limited general appeal", but that's is an excellent description of many highly reliable scientific journals, trade papers, and local papers. For example, Journal of the United States Artillery - clearly a very narrow audience, yet highly respected, and could be the best source on information on an artillery officer or manufacturer. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
[For contexts of this discussion, please see the talk archive pages 11 and 12. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
The problem with the "or obscure newspapers" phrasing is that the term "obscure" is completely subjective, and hence meaningless for Wikipedia's purposes. One editor may think that a small-town newspaper is "obscure", another will disagree. One editor may think that a paper catering to a certain community in a large city is "obscure", another (who may be a member of that community, and thus able to judge the paper's reliability better than somone from outside it) will disagree. As lots of folks have said above, the key is reliability and editorial oversight. The relevant bit of WP:V#Questionable sources says, "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight." Why shouldn't BLP use that wording, which is unambiguous? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 21:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
[3] was protected by an administrator who is not active due to a death in the family (see updated user page, though he has edited since updating it). Too many disputes about language and policy have led to changes in this page since August 13, when he protected it. I think it needs to be reverted back to the protected version (SV's version). I do not think changes made since that version are improvements and some are quite confusing. -- NYScholar 20:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
No way! There is no edit war going on now but the change you propose would certainly start one. It may happen to support your odd theories about external links and citations being the same thing, but it was only there because it got frozen for two days in the middle of an edit war. The page has been stable and constructively edited for two weeks. We should not even think about returning to the 6+ week long edit war that preceded that.
By the way, the only reason we were able to make progress at all was a welcome reduction in refactoring, misstatements, impertinent comments, editing of previously posted comments, and sheer volume of impertinent material that plagued this talk page earlier in the month and chased everyone away. I see you have made 26[27] posts on this page so far today. Please do not start that up again.
Wikidemo 20:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I have protected the page for 48 hours. There have been 8 reverts in the past 5 hours, including five in the past hour. Please work out any disagreements on the talk page. — Black Falcon ( Talk) 21:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
As I point out in earlier comments, the current protected version of WP:BLP#Reliable sources (a policy) is now inconsistent with a guideline version of it (the pre-protection, pre-August 12, 2007 version) that appears in WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons (a guideline, which is supposed to be an exact quotation of policy from WP:BLP#Reliable sources). This discrepancy may lead to confusions for editors, especially new editors, of Wikipedia. I suggest (again) that one revert to the quoted version of the policy as it currently appears in WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons. Then, if "wide consensus" is reached to make changes to the version of both WP:BLP#Reliable sources and WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons, the version and the quotation of the version need to match (as they do not match now). It is inconsistent for the currently protected version to differ from what is supposed to be an exact quotation of it. -- NYScholar 02:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no consensus for your proposal, and adopting it via an "immediate edit" without a thorough discussion would lead to a further edit war. The reasons for rejecting the proposed categorial prohibition against all links to self-published sites as external links, as opposed to sources, have been discussed at length by many Wikipedians active on these policy pages. The date you cite was in the midst of an edit on that exact proposal that had already lasted for more than six weeks, and in which you participated. The guideline page you cite for support is an old fork of this policy page, made at the time of the edit war via this edit. You know all this because you have been participating in this very debate for more than a month. If you are going to bang the drum for a contentious edit, please do not present it as a quick and simple discrepancy to fix. Policy here is made through discussion, not edit wars. Unless you want to start yet another edit war you should explain here why you want the change, and wait for a consensus to be reached. Briefly, please. Wikidemo 03:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, including as an external link, unless written or published by the subject of the article ( see below).
I have questioned sentence one. I approve of keeping "including as an external link"; or, if that is removed, then restoring the sentence that I had added (or Jossi's current version). But the point that I was making in this section comment that I added is just that the two appearances of the paragraph in both WP:BLP#Reliable sources and WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons need to match, as the latter is supposed to be a quotaiton of the former. I do not recommend changing the language that SV had reverted to pre-August 12 or on August 12/13 unless there is "wide consensus" for doing so, which I do not see so far. I have cross-posted notice of this dilemma in other policy pages. (I do object strongly to these continual faulty assumptions about my intentions in posting my comments by Wikidemo or anyone else. I suggest strongly that such comments need to stop. They are unnecessary and not at all helpful.) WP:AGF.) -- NYScholar 04:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Some people are re-igniting an old edit war by adding a ban on external links to "self-published" books, magazines, websites, and blogs within BLPs. I do not believe this ban ever had consensus, nor does it serve the goals of BLP policy.
For those new to the discussion, the ban would, one of its proponents promises, override existing practice with respect to WP:EL (which would have to be modified to conform) and at least one WikiProject ( WP:MUSTARD). As it is both permit such links if they are by a "recognized authority," by "an established organization", give access to information that for one reason or another would not be suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia (due to length, format, original research, use of non-free materials, etc).
Although the sentiment against self-published materials is understandable, an absolute ban is overreaching and would prohibit plenty of valuable links already in Wikipedia. To repeat some earlier examples, it could prohibit links to recipes, song lyrics, concert schedules, galleries of photos of notable buildings, fan clubs, etc. This does not concern references used to source material that appears in the articles, but rather those helpful links to external sites in the infoboxes and "external links" sections that concern information that is not in the articles. Another is that "self-published" is poorly defined and misunderstood in this situation. People misunderstand it as a ban on self-funded, non-incorporated, small-staffed, or non-mainstream publications when, in fact, the term means that the person or company that generates the content is the one that publishes it. BLP is trying to avoid unreliable or derogatory biographical information about living people. The policy as it now stands prevents that from being used as a source. There are already plenty of safeguards in place to prevent people from linking to attack sites or other sites where unreliable derogatory information about living people may appear. There are also plenty of safeguards in place against all the other perils of self-published and non-mainstream sites (e.g. linkspam, copyright violations, etc). However, many blogs and other self-published sites are useful and neutral. Banning all of them as external links gets rid of useful links without any corresponding improvement on protection for BLP.
Opinions can certainly differ. As of now there is no consensus on banning these links. Perhaps one will emerge. But until then, can we please talk about this rather than repeatedly inserting the ban to the point of an edit war? Thx, Wikidemo 07:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
To repeat some earlier examples, it could prohibit links to recipes, song lyrics, concert schedules, galleries of photos of notable buildings. This is about biographies of living people, not about the subjects you describe in your examples. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikidemo: please avoid deleting long-standing wording in this policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The wording doesn't really matter, because the clause is being applied without attention to the exception noted.
As usual, the WP:BADSITES battle is being fought on mistaken pretexts. The cases have involved external links, not citations (though it is only a matter of time before that happens), so verifiability has thus far been a red herring. Likewise the BLP issue of avoiding slander/libel/legal problems can hardly apply with what people have said themselves. All this is really about, again, is a moral judgement against certain sites for being too nasty (and a very narrowly focused nastiness at that). And even then, as a general rule, the only way most people become aware of the offensive material is that someone publishes that fact by deleting the link.
Nobody here is going to get the "offenders" to clean up their websites by deleting these links; instead, they are going to direct people to go look who otherwise might not have cared. (Some of them are going to be disappointed to find that they have to rifle through hundreds of blog comments to find the dirt.) I suspect that those who do care have learned to use Google by now. Mangoe 17:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I do not follow. Can someone explain what in the current wording is in contradiction with the spirit of this policy?
I do not see anything in this wording that contradicts the standards established by this policy. Please read attentively. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Referring to a guideline ( WP:EL) in a policy such as WP:BLP is absurd [see Geni's recent edits to the policy page (prior to my posting this)], which I think need to be corrected immediately]; it does not solve the problems of breaches/violations of WP:V#Sources already in the guideline; it creates a "feedback loop" of the very kind that this policy warns against. It is watering down the WP:BLP project page in a manner that has no consensus and certainly not "wide consensus" among people concerned about these discrepancies. I suggest that the recent editing war reversions all be pushed back to previous language of this policy that did have wide consensus and that the problems/discrepancies in WP:EL be fixed immediately before further damage is done in biographies of living persons and in other Wikipedia space where material about living persons is being included that should not be included and/or linked (via external links). See the concerns expressed throughout the WP:BLP/N and its talk page about these matters. -- NYScholar 00:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC) [added ref. -- NYScholar 00:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)]
Jossi: If you scroll up to your own comments re: changes in this policy page, you will find some of your earlier statements that I believe have some wide consensus in Wikipedia.
The sentence that I added earlier (recently quoted by 2005--"Unreliable and unverifiable sources should not be linked anywhere in Wikipedia space as sources of information about living persons, including in "External links" sections of articles.")--is one that both SV and you had accepted earlier, and I think that the "letter" of the sentence (not merely the "spirit") needs to be clear. When "spirit" rather than "letter" of a "policy" is referred to, it leaves lack of clarity and "wiggle room" for those who would like WP:V#Sources not to apply to external links used in Wikipedia as they pertain to living persons biographies (articles) and to material about living persons linked in Wikipedia space. The main thrust of this debate is to protect living persons (especially those who are not public figures) from the inclusion of material based on unreliable and unverifiable sources and especially to prevent derogatory and negative but also other material [from such unreliable and unverifiable sources] being posted about them in Wikipedia. Those are reasonable concerns. It boggles the mind that serious editors do not seem to grasp this problem and are unwilling to solve it. -- NYScholar 00:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Of course, as many people have already stated, external sources linked to via "external links" are "sources" and subject to W:V. To say otherwise defeats the core policy, WP:V. Core policy is core policy; a guideline ( WP:EL) does not "trump" a policy, as Jossi stated some time ago now (scroll up). I do not understand Geni's purpose. -- NYScholar 00:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:EL is a guideline that has been continually revised and is subject to frequent edit warring. "The people who wrote WP:EL" are in its entire editing history; it has strong contradictions with the previous statement of WP:BLP#Reliable sources, as is demonstrated in WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons, which quotes the policy as it used to be stated. There are problems in WP:EL that need resolution. One does not look to a heavily revised guideline page for how to state Wikipedia policy in WP:BLP. It is supposed to be the other way around. One does not redefine Wikipedia policy in WP:BLP to suit changes in WP:EL. That is ass-backward. -- NYScholar 01:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Obviously we have different standards for content in the article than we do for material that is pointed to by any of these internal and external links. "See also" links are by definition unreliable, because Wikipedia articles are not a proper source for anything. Infobox links are not supposed to be for more information, they are usually to point people to the subject of the article (e.g. a company's official website). "Further reading" is often to source material that would violate WP:OR. External links aren't just placeholders for information that nobody had the time or inclination to bother integrating into the article; they serve a different purpose. We have an external link guideline for the external links, and various policies and guidelines relating to article content. With or without BLP there is a baseline threshold both for sourcing and for external links. BLP raises the bar where living people are concerned, for purposes of avoiding defamation claims and some argue for purposes of fairness, neutrality, avoiding controversy, and avoiding internal disputes because all of these are more likely to be troublesome where living people are involved. With that purpose in mind, you can ask the question of just what kind of external links that would otherwise be permitted on Wikipedia do we want to ban. As far as I can tell, we want to avoid pointing to especially derogatory or unreliable biographical content about the living person. So, why not just say that? If self-published articles were a 100% fit with what we wanted to ban we could just ban that. However, as people have pointed out there is plenty of self-published content that is not biographical, not about the living person, and not unreliable. Many, many examples. That is the objection. Prohibit what we mean to prohibit, but don't cast the net so wide we prohibit good links. Wikidemo 02:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Once again this discussion gets out of hand with repetitive comments that seem to exist just for the sake of argument. External links are not sources. Two different guidelines apply to them. Okay, now get over it. External links can have types reliable, meritable material that sources can not. They should not be used as a "dumping ground" but they have different criteria for a reason. To use my own example, a statement from Martin Scorcese saying Steven Spielberg is the greatest director of the past thirty years could not be used and sourced in an article, but it is perfectly fine to have in an essay that is an external link. Now this is all is dealt with in a basic common sense way by having reliable source guidelines and external link ones. This ongoing refusal to at length reject the structure of the encyclopedia is not helpful to anyone, especially since this is not the page to discuss the topic. External links are not sources. Move on. 2005 03:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
In the context of the discussion that we are having about biographies of living persons and about material to be linked in "external links" sections of biographies of living persons, that presentation of this "example" makes no sense: "To use my own example, a statement from Martin Scorsese saying Steven Spielberg is the greatest director of the past thirty years could not be used and sourced in an article...." Of course, a statement from Martin Scorsese about what he himself thinks about Steven Spielberg is a reliable and verifiable source about Scorsese's opinion of Spielberg. Scorsese is a notable source of information about another film director. If it's published on Scorsese's own website or in another reliable and verifiable source of information about Scorsese's views, it is in keeping with WP:V#Sources; but it is not suitable to link to Scorsese's website in the "External links" section of the biography of Spielberg. It is linkable in a "full citation" to the source (of the statement by Scorsese). What we are talking about are what sources are permissible in the "External links" sections of articles about living persons and for use as "material about" living persons. Scorsese's view of Spielberg is not likely to be "derogatory" or "challenged" or even controversial; it is likely to be seen simply as his viewpoint and, given WP:BLP#Well known public figures, Scorsese's posting of his point of view of Spielberg is very likely not to be challenged if it were cited as a source of that point of view in an article about either himself or about Spielberg. I don't see the relevance at all of that example. You have to read WP:BLP also in terms of how it connects with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV when the living persons involved are well-known public figures, as both Scorsese and Spielberg are. You are citing as an "example" something that does not relate to what we are debating here. Scorsese's own website would be a reliable source of information about his point of view on any subject that he discusses on it. By virtue of his being the publisher/author (if it is an "official site"), it is a reliable and verifiable source of information about him, including his points of view. Self-published, non-official fansites devoted to Scorsese or to Spielberg are not reliable and verifiable sources of information about them or their points of view, given WP:V#Sources [and they don't belong listed as "External links" in articles about either one of them.] Such fansites contain gossip and speculation and are not sanctioned by their subjects. Therein lie the problems with them in relation to material about living persons, especially those who are not well-known public figures. -- NYScholar 03:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC) )][links added and more emph. -- NYScholar 04:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)]
Hunting for various examples of links to self-published sources from BLPs, I expected the issue to be fan sites, recipes, tour dates, and the like. But I found a huge source in a place I did not expect: articles about young, up-and-coming, historical, and minor artists, poets, and technologists. A typical scenario is that someone writes an article about a graffiti artist or muralist like Rigo 23 or the Mission School people, or notable figures like Omar Sosa or Diane di Prima. People have collected links, compiled their works, conducted or reprinted interviews. In the case of muralists and graffiti artists people have gone out and taken pictures of their works. These are mostly self-published sources, although the term loses some meaning when you apply it to blogs and sites devoted to third party content. What does it even mean for a blog to be "self-published" if they're reproducing the work of others, or associated with some loosely-knit but unincorporated (or incorporated) volunteers doing an art project? But whatever the case, these people are, though notable, not the subject of any mass media mainstream comprehensive coverage. Either they're not that famous or they're working in a field like poetry where there just isn't enough money for that. So we get links like these: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11], [12]. In fact, many if not most Wikipedia articles that cover people who are notable but either minor or in low-paying fields have these kinds of links to self-published sources. There's a comparable cluster for people in Web 2.0 and the blogosphere, where blogs and other self-published sources are where the real news is, not print publications. All told I would guess there are somewhere between many tens of thousands, to millions, of these links on Wikipedia. Wikidemo 06:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Self-published blogs by the subjects of biographies of living persons are permissible external links in articles about the person himself or herself. They are reliable and verifiable sources of their own points of view on themselves and topics of interest to them: see WP:V#Sources and the "see below" in WP:BLP#Reliable sources. -- NYScholar 07:02, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Re: Scorsese (say) hypothetical: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." -- NYScholar 07:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
People her are arguing about different guidelines, may be missing the fact that this is official policy and an extension of V and NPOV specifically for BVPs. The EL guideline is generic to all articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I can't be bothered reading the whole discussion but it sounds to me like most of these self published sources are likely violationing people's copyright and so we shouldn't be linking to them anyway regardless of arguments about their reliability. To quote "compiled their works, conducted or reprinted interviews. The highlighted portions scream copyvio to me Nil Einne 18:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
[This section and the next few ones are being moved to Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
Hello, I've just created a seperate page proposing guidlines for noteability of Reality TV contestants and if they should have their own articles. I did this due to the mass number of articles being created and deleted on these subjects in recent months, and confusion among editors if they are in fact noteable or not. You can read this here. All edits and comments on the talk page are welcome. Thanks, Dalejenkins | 18:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC).
Does BLP's higher standards of reliable citation apply if the subject of the BLP article is dead (but extremely popular)? It has been argued that, because the dude is dead, the normal criteria apply. I disagree, thinking about the guy's family and friends. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely. Unfortuntely, the BLP matter is complicated by an almost word for word inclusion of an uncited novel (published 24 years ago, and went out of print less than a year later). Perhaps someone a bit higher up the authority chain could visit the articles of John Lennon and May Pang; I seem to be running into a bit of resistance regarding the inclusion of uncited material, as well as the BLP harm to living persons it represents. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Should the standards of WP:BLP1E - covering the event not the person - be applied to biographies of people who are dead, especially if the one notable event is the reaction to their death. Agne Cheese/ Wine 03:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course it does. The (barely cited) information in a dead man's bio which disparages another living person (with an article) falls under BLP. Gnan, can you explain ina bit more detail about the Irwin example? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Shall I once again propose that we move this page to Wikipedia:Biographical content? violet/riga (t) 17:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I suppose another frame of reference is whether or not it's "encyclopedic" to focus on a non-notable person, instead of the event which is the only item that will have lasting encyclopedic relevance. I'm looking at this not from a perspective of whether or not the article is "damaging" or hurting anyone (which I'm afraid has become BLP's single, narrow focus) but whether or not it simply a good article that is serving our reader well in covering what is important. With the particular article that I'm currently having editorial discussions on, I am disagreeing with two editors over whether or not mundane trivial details such as the fact that girl got an elementary school reprimand as a young girl or cut her hair for charity is worthy encyclopedic content when the only thing that she is notable for is her death triggered an episode of Mourning sickness. In that context it seems the WP:BLP1E should be a guiding principle in crafting a quality article on the encyclopedic event that is notable rather then bury the article underneath a mountain of trivial and memorial like details. I suppose what I would like clarification on is whether or not that is an intent of WP:BLP1E? Agne Cheese/ Wine 18:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Two key things here. If it's not clear a person is dead then clearly BLP applies. Hopefully we can all agree with that. Secondly even if a person is dead, it doesn't mean there are no BLP concerns since there may still be other living people who will be affected by the claims Nil Einne 11:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is wording being removed from this policy that says that "Material available solely...in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all" ?
This is our Verifiability policy. It's idiotic to rewrite this policy so that it misrepresents our most basic policies of which it is supposed to be a restatement. -- Tony Sidaway 16:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Tony. I have been busy, and not paying attention to the discussion here, but BLP is really just a restatement of our other core policies, with extra penalty added, and less discussion required. I'm not saying this is happening in this case, but often editors will try to have this policy modified slightly, because it is obstructing them in a particular case. We have to look at the bigger picture. It is better to keep out or have to really fight to include a marginally includable source, than to open the floodgates to inappropriate sources. I am against any attempts to weaken this policy, or to bring it out of sync with our other policies. - Crockspot 17:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Agreed. If the single source claiming the bulimia isn't noteworthy enough, I sometimes repair the statement to the Disucssion page and ask for further or redundant independent verification (anyone who's watched the Daily Show knows how news outlets tned to parrot each other without checking the sources, either). Maybe I am wrong for doing that, but if there is a chance it is true, then it should stay within discussion, and definitely not in the article until such citation is found.
Something like this has come up on the
John Lennon and
May Pang articles, regarding their relationship. I've pulled a lot of the "Lost Weekend" stuff, as it appears that the only real source of what happened is a trashy tell-all by Pang herself, and wholly unsourced. I am getting grief over calling for its removal, citing BLP concerns (inclusion in the late Lennon's article affects both
Yoko Ono and Pang). -
Arcayne
(cast a spell) 17:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
"obscure newspapers" is a terminaly flawed phraseing. The news of the world can afford to lose the odd lible case. The local paper less so. Geni 20:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
If a negative or dodgy statement is inadequately sourced, remove it without discussion. Don't suffer the endless wankery of idiots who will seek to argue that the source is adequate. Make them establish the statement through unarguably adequate sourcing. Anything else is unacceptable. We're Wikipedia. We can afford to wait years or even decades to get things right, but meanwhile we should not accept making somebody's life unnecessarily bad for one single second. -- Tony Sidaway 22:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's try a few test cases, just to see how people believe the "obscure newspapers" clause should apply.
Reported by Matthew Barrows in the January 1, 2001, edition of The Sacramento Bee, they listed some 50 text pages and six photo captions in which Ambrose "erred, misstated the facts or used quotes that cannot be substantiated with facts". According to Barrows, Ambrose cited his son Hugh as the primary research assistant for the book and chose not to respond.
-- AnonEMouse (squeak) 19:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see any sources in those cases that I would consider "obscure". Even the local papers have editorial oversight, and are owned by companies that publish other local papers throughout the country. Obscure to me is a paper that caters to a very narrow audience, and has limited general appeal or even usefulness, in a newsworthy sense. For example, there is a paper in the SF Bay Area (can't recall the name) that has been around for a long time. It caters to the the black community, but not the black community in general, more of the Black Panther segment of the black community. It's reporting is biased, bordering on racist. That would be obscure and unreliable. One source I removed not too long ago, and again I do not recall the name, was a paper, really more of a newsletter, out of Texas, that catered to conspiracy theory oriented and ufologist readers. A lot of outrage and fist shaking, but thin on verifiable facts. That is obscure and unreliable. - Crockspot 20:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) The problem is that "obscure" doesn't mean anything like "not having editorial oversight staff". [2] The Drudge Report has no editorial oversight, but it's not at all obscure, it's quite popular. It does mean "paper that caters to a very narrow audience, and has limited general appeal", but that's is an excellent description of many highly reliable scientific journals, trade papers, and local papers. For example, Journal of the United States Artillery - clearly a very narrow audience, yet highly respected, and could be the best source on information on an artillery officer or manufacturer. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
[For contexts of this discussion, please see the talk archive pages 11 and 12. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
The problem with the "or obscure newspapers" phrasing is that the term "obscure" is completely subjective, and hence meaningless for Wikipedia's purposes. One editor may think that a small-town newspaper is "obscure", another will disagree. One editor may think that a paper catering to a certain community in a large city is "obscure", another (who may be a member of that community, and thus able to judge the paper's reliability better than somone from outside it) will disagree. As lots of folks have said above, the key is reliability and editorial oversight. The relevant bit of WP:V#Questionable sources says, "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight." Why shouldn't BLP use that wording, which is unambiguous? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 21:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
[3] was protected by an administrator who is not active due to a death in the family (see updated user page, though he has edited since updating it). Too many disputes about language and policy have led to changes in this page since August 13, when he protected it. I think it needs to be reverted back to the protected version (SV's version). I do not think changes made since that version are improvements and some are quite confusing. -- NYScholar 20:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
No way! There is no edit war going on now but the change you propose would certainly start one. It may happen to support your odd theories about external links and citations being the same thing, but it was only there because it got frozen for two days in the middle of an edit war. The page has been stable and constructively edited for two weeks. We should not even think about returning to the 6+ week long edit war that preceded that.
By the way, the only reason we were able to make progress at all was a welcome reduction in refactoring, misstatements, impertinent comments, editing of previously posted comments, and sheer volume of impertinent material that plagued this talk page earlier in the month and chased everyone away. I see you have made 26[27] posts on this page so far today. Please do not start that up again.
Wikidemo 20:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I have protected the page for 48 hours. There have been 8 reverts in the past 5 hours, including five in the past hour. Please work out any disagreements on the talk page. — Black Falcon ( Talk) 21:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
As I point out in earlier comments, the current protected version of WP:BLP#Reliable sources (a policy) is now inconsistent with a guideline version of it (the pre-protection, pre-August 12, 2007 version) that appears in WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons (a guideline, which is supposed to be an exact quotation of policy from WP:BLP#Reliable sources). This discrepancy may lead to confusions for editors, especially new editors, of Wikipedia. I suggest (again) that one revert to the quoted version of the policy as it currently appears in WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons. Then, if "wide consensus" is reached to make changes to the version of both WP:BLP#Reliable sources and WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons, the version and the quotation of the version need to match (as they do not match now). It is inconsistent for the currently protected version to differ from what is supposed to be an exact quotation of it. -- NYScholar 02:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no consensus for your proposal, and adopting it via an "immediate edit" without a thorough discussion would lead to a further edit war. The reasons for rejecting the proposed categorial prohibition against all links to self-published sites as external links, as opposed to sources, have been discussed at length by many Wikipedians active on these policy pages. The date you cite was in the midst of an edit on that exact proposal that had already lasted for more than six weeks, and in which you participated. The guideline page you cite for support is an old fork of this policy page, made at the time of the edit war via this edit. You know all this because you have been participating in this very debate for more than a month. If you are going to bang the drum for a contentious edit, please do not present it as a quick and simple discrepancy to fix. Policy here is made through discussion, not edit wars. Unless you want to start yet another edit war you should explain here why you want the change, and wait for a consensus to be reached. Briefly, please. Wikidemo 03:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, including as an external link, unless written or published by the subject of the article ( see below).
I have questioned sentence one. I approve of keeping "including as an external link"; or, if that is removed, then restoring the sentence that I had added (or Jossi's current version). But the point that I was making in this section comment that I added is just that the two appearances of the paragraph in both WP:BLP#Reliable sources and WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons need to match, as the latter is supposed to be a quotaiton of the former. I do not recommend changing the language that SV had reverted to pre-August 12 or on August 12/13 unless there is "wide consensus" for doing so, which I do not see so far. I have cross-posted notice of this dilemma in other policy pages. (I do object strongly to these continual faulty assumptions about my intentions in posting my comments by Wikidemo or anyone else. I suggest strongly that such comments need to stop. They are unnecessary and not at all helpful.) WP:AGF.) -- NYScholar 04:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Some people are re-igniting an old edit war by adding a ban on external links to "self-published" books, magazines, websites, and blogs within BLPs. I do not believe this ban ever had consensus, nor does it serve the goals of BLP policy.
For those new to the discussion, the ban would, one of its proponents promises, override existing practice with respect to WP:EL (which would have to be modified to conform) and at least one WikiProject ( WP:MUSTARD). As it is both permit such links if they are by a "recognized authority," by "an established organization", give access to information that for one reason or another would not be suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia (due to length, format, original research, use of non-free materials, etc).
Although the sentiment against self-published materials is understandable, an absolute ban is overreaching and would prohibit plenty of valuable links already in Wikipedia. To repeat some earlier examples, it could prohibit links to recipes, song lyrics, concert schedules, galleries of photos of notable buildings, fan clubs, etc. This does not concern references used to source material that appears in the articles, but rather those helpful links to external sites in the infoboxes and "external links" sections that concern information that is not in the articles. Another is that "self-published" is poorly defined and misunderstood in this situation. People misunderstand it as a ban on self-funded, non-incorporated, small-staffed, or non-mainstream publications when, in fact, the term means that the person or company that generates the content is the one that publishes it. BLP is trying to avoid unreliable or derogatory biographical information about living people. The policy as it now stands prevents that from being used as a source. There are already plenty of safeguards in place to prevent people from linking to attack sites or other sites where unreliable derogatory information about living people may appear. There are also plenty of safeguards in place against all the other perils of self-published and non-mainstream sites (e.g. linkspam, copyright violations, etc). However, many blogs and other self-published sites are useful and neutral. Banning all of them as external links gets rid of useful links without any corresponding improvement on protection for BLP.
Opinions can certainly differ. As of now there is no consensus on banning these links. Perhaps one will emerge. But until then, can we please talk about this rather than repeatedly inserting the ban to the point of an edit war? Thx, Wikidemo 07:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
To repeat some earlier examples, it could prohibit links to recipes, song lyrics, concert schedules, galleries of photos of notable buildings. This is about biographies of living people, not about the subjects you describe in your examples. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikidemo: please avoid deleting long-standing wording in this policy. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The wording doesn't really matter, because the clause is being applied without attention to the exception noted.
As usual, the WP:BADSITES battle is being fought on mistaken pretexts. The cases have involved external links, not citations (though it is only a matter of time before that happens), so verifiability has thus far been a red herring. Likewise the BLP issue of avoiding slander/libel/legal problems can hardly apply with what people have said themselves. All this is really about, again, is a moral judgement against certain sites for being too nasty (and a very narrowly focused nastiness at that). And even then, as a general rule, the only way most people become aware of the offensive material is that someone publishes that fact by deleting the link.
Nobody here is going to get the "offenders" to clean up their websites by deleting these links; instead, they are going to direct people to go look who otherwise might not have cared. (Some of them are going to be disappointed to find that they have to rifle through hundreds of blog comments to find the dirt.) I suspect that those who do care have learned to use Google by now. Mangoe 17:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I do not follow. Can someone explain what in the current wording is in contradiction with the spirit of this policy?
I do not see anything in this wording that contradicts the standards established by this policy. Please read attentively. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Referring to a guideline ( WP:EL) in a policy such as WP:BLP is absurd [see Geni's recent edits to the policy page (prior to my posting this)], which I think need to be corrected immediately]; it does not solve the problems of breaches/violations of WP:V#Sources already in the guideline; it creates a "feedback loop" of the very kind that this policy warns against. It is watering down the WP:BLP project page in a manner that has no consensus and certainly not "wide consensus" among people concerned about these discrepancies. I suggest that the recent editing war reversions all be pushed back to previous language of this policy that did have wide consensus and that the problems/discrepancies in WP:EL be fixed immediately before further damage is done in biographies of living persons and in other Wikipedia space where material about living persons is being included that should not be included and/or linked (via external links). See the concerns expressed throughout the WP:BLP/N and its talk page about these matters. -- NYScholar 00:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC) [added ref. -- NYScholar 00:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)]
Jossi: If you scroll up to your own comments re: changes in this policy page, you will find some of your earlier statements that I believe have some wide consensus in Wikipedia.
The sentence that I added earlier (recently quoted by 2005--"Unreliable and unverifiable sources should not be linked anywhere in Wikipedia space as sources of information about living persons, including in "External links" sections of articles.")--is one that both SV and you had accepted earlier, and I think that the "letter" of the sentence (not merely the "spirit") needs to be clear. When "spirit" rather than "letter" of a "policy" is referred to, it leaves lack of clarity and "wiggle room" for those who would like WP:V#Sources not to apply to external links used in Wikipedia as they pertain to living persons biographies (articles) and to material about living persons linked in Wikipedia space. The main thrust of this debate is to protect living persons (especially those who are not public figures) from the inclusion of material based on unreliable and unverifiable sources and especially to prevent derogatory and negative but also other material [from such unreliable and unverifiable sources] being posted about them in Wikipedia. Those are reasonable concerns. It boggles the mind that serious editors do not seem to grasp this problem and are unwilling to solve it. -- NYScholar 00:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Of course, as many people have already stated, external sources linked to via "external links" are "sources" and subject to W:V. To say otherwise defeats the core policy, WP:V. Core policy is core policy; a guideline ( WP:EL) does not "trump" a policy, as Jossi stated some time ago now (scroll up). I do not understand Geni's purpose. -- NYScholar 00:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:EL is a guideline that has been continually revised and is subject to frequent edit warring. "The people who wrote WP:EL" are in its entire editing history; it has strong contradictions with the previous statement of WP:BLP#Reliable sources, as is demonstrated in WP:Reliable sources#Biographies of living persons, which quotes the policy as it used to be stated. There are problems in WP:EL that need resolution. One does not look to a heavily revised guideline page for how to state Wikipedia policy in WP:BLP. It is supposed to be the other way around. One does not redefine Wikipedia policy in WP:BLP to suit changes in WP:EL. That is ass-backward. -- NYScholar 01:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Obviously we have different standards for content in the article than we do for material that is pointed to by any of these internal and external links. "See also" links are by definition unreliable, because Wikipedia articles are not a proper source for anything. Infobox links are not supposed to be for more information, they are usually to point people to the subject of the article (e.g. a company's official website). "Further reading" is often to source material that would violate WP:OR. External links aren't just placeholders for information that nobody had the time or inclination to bother integrating into the article; they serve a different purpose. We have an external link guideline for the external links, and various policies and guidelines relating to article content. With or without BLP there is a baseline threshold both for sourcing and for external links. BLP raises the bar where living people are concerned, for purposes of avoiding defamation claims and some argue for purposes of fairness, neutrality, avoiding controversy, and avoiding internal disputes because all of these are more likely to be troublesome where living people are involved. With that purpose in mind, you can ask the question of just what kind of external links that would otherwise be permitted on Wikipedia do we want to ban. As far as I can tell, we want to avoid pointing to especially derogatory or unreliable biographical content about the living person. So, why not just say that? If self-published articles were a 100% fit with what we wanted to ban we could just ban that. However, as people have pointed out there is plenty of self-published content that is not biographical, not about the living person, and not unreliable. Many, many examples. That is the objection. Prohibit what we mean to prohibit, but don't cast the net so wide we prohibit good links. Wikidemo 02:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Once again this discussion gets out of hand with repetitive comments that seem to exist just for the sake of argument. External links are not sources. Two different guidelines apply to them. Okay, now get over it. External links can have types reliable, meritable material that sources can not. They should not be used as a "dumping ground" but they have different criteria for a reason. To use my own example, a statement from Martin Scorcese saying Steven Spielberg is the greatest director of the past thirty years could not be used and sourced in an article, but it is perfectly fine to have in an essay that is an external link. Now this is all is dealt with in a basic common sense way by having reliable source guidelines and external link ones. This ongoing refusal to at length reject the structure of the encyclopedia is not helpful to anyone, especially since this is not the page to discuss the topic. External links are not sources. Move on. 2005 03:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
In the context of the discussion that we are having about biographies of living persons and about material to be linked in "external links" sections of biographies of living persons, that presentation of this "example" makes no sense: "To use my own example, a statement from Martin Scorsese saying Steven Spielberg is the greatest director of the past thirty years could not be used and sourced in an article...." Of course, a statement from Martin Scorsese about what he himself thinks about Steven Spielberg is a reliable and verifiable source about Scorsese's opinion of Spielberg. Scorsese is a notable source of information about another film director. If it's published on Scorsese's own website or in another reliable and verifiable source of information about Scorsese's views, it is in keeping with WP:V#Sources; but it is not suitable to link to Scorsese's website in the "External links" section of the biography of Spielberg. It is linkable in a "full citation" to the source (of the statement by Scorsese). What we are talking about are what sources are permissible in the "External links" sections of articles about living persons and for use as "material about" living persons. Scorsese's view of Spielberg is not likely to be "derogatory" or "challenged" or even controversial; it is likely to be seen simply as his viewpoint and, given WP:BLP#Well known public figures, Scorsese's posting of his point of view of Spielberg is very likely not to be challenged if it were cited as a source of that point of view in an article about either himself or about Spielberg. I don't see the relevance at all of that example. You have to read WP:BLP also in terms of how it connects with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV when the living persons involved are well-known public figures, as both Scorsese and Spielberg are. You are citing as an "example" something that does not relate to what we are debating here. Scorsese's own website would be a reliable source of information about his point of view on any subject that he discusses on it. By virtue of his being the publisher/author (if it is an "official site"), it is a reliable and verifiable source of information about him, including his points of view. Self-published, non-official fansites devoted to Scorsese or to Spielberg are not reliable and verifiable sources of information about them or their points of view, given WP:V#Sources [and they don't belong listed as "External links" in articles about either one of them.] Such fansites contain gossip and speculation and are not sanctioned by their subjects. Therein lie the problems with them in relation to material about living persons, especially those who are not well-known public figures. -- NYScholar 03:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC) )][links added and more emph. -- NYScholar 04:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)]
Hunting for various examples of links to self-published sources from BLPs, I expected the issue to be fan sites, recipes, tour dates, and the like. But I found a huge source in a place I did not expect: articles about young, up-and-coming, historical, and minor artists, poets, and technologists. A typical scenario is that someone writes an article about a graffiti artist or muralist like Rigo 23 or the Mission School people, or notable figures like Omar Sosa or Diane di Prima. People have collected links, compiled their works, conducted or reprinted interviews. In the case of muralists and graffiti artists people have gone out and taken pictures of their works. These are mostly self-published sources, although the term loses some meaning when you apply it to blogs and sites devoted to third party content. What does it even mean for a blog to be "self-published" if they're reproducing the work of others, or associated with some loosely-knit but unincorporated (or incorporated) volunteers doing an art project? But whatever the case, these people are, though notable, not the subject of any mass media mainstream comprehensive coverage. Either they're not that famous or they're working in a field like poetry where there just isn't enough money for that. So we get links like these: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11], [12]. In fact, many if not most Wikipedia articles that cover people who are notable but either minor or in low-paying fields have these kinds of links to self-published sources. There's a comparable cluster for people in Web 2.0 and the blogosphere, where blogs and other self-published sources are where the real news is, not print publications. All told I would guess there are somewhere between many tens of thousands, to millions, of these links on Wikipedia. Wikidemo 06:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Self-published blogs by the subjects of biographies of living persons are permissible external links in articles about the person himself or herself. They are reliable and verifiable sources of their own points of view on themselves and topics of interest to them: see WP:V#Sources and the "see below" in WP:BLP#Reliable sources. -- NYScholar 07:02, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Re: Scorsese (say) hypothetical: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." -- NYScholar 07:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
People her are arguing about different guidelines, may be missing the fact that this is official policy and an extension of V and NPOV specifically for BVPs. The EL guideline is generic to all articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I can't be bothered reading the whole discussion but it sounds to me like most of these self published sources are likely violationing people's copyright and so we shouldn't be linking to them anyway regardless of arguments about their reliability. To quote "compiled their works, conducted or reprinted interviews. The highlighted portions scream copyvio to me Nil Einne 18:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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