This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Currently the policy page addresses the EL issue in two sentences, as follows:
I would argue that these two sentences encompass all the issues related to ELs in BLPs. Can we archive the discussion now? We do not need any other specific limitations for ELs on BLPs. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Re: the question "Aren't we done?": Consensus is an ongoing process in Wikipedia: see Wikipedia:Consensus; "we" few people who have been debating these matters are not the final arbiters of them. Changes to policy project pages are not supposed to be made this way (in the process of editing wars). Please see the statement about that on project pages for policies. Proposals for altering (changing) policies have a procedure in Wikipedia. This talk page has generally ignored that; I have pointed it out, linked to procedure, but that has been ignored. I have tried to confine my comments to the talk pages and except for very minor edits since August 12, I have not been participating in edit warring over the language of this project page; I have just been discussing it. That is what a talk page is for. Please read the previous discussion by me and others so that one can see what is at issue and what is not at issue about WP:BLP#Reliable sources and WP:BLP as it pertains to WP:EL. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Responding to Will's comment above, I would say that "obscure newspapers" is a judgment that editors can easily make, and that they can discuss with other editors on specific cases if that "obscurity" is challenged. We could attempt to find a different distinction, but I have been unable to come up with a better one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) 1. Someone please tell me if this is NOT correct: The intent behind the "obscure newspapers" inclusion is an effort to create a higher standard of reliable sources than we have at WP:Reliable sources.
2. If so, why is the "reliable source" standard not enough? I'm sorry if this has been covered before (just point me to the spot and I'll read it). If the intent is merely to ensure that sources of negative information for living persons are reliable, we don't need to duplicate the standard we already have. Is there some incident we don't want repeated that this policy discussion stemmed from?
3. Jossi says (03:03) "obscure newspapers" is a judgment that editors can easily make, but Wikidemo in the post just above brings up points and examples that describe some of the predictable arguments. It seems to me it would be better for future editors to be arguing over the reliability of the source rather than its obscurity.
4. Wikipedia editors from the U.S. and perhaps elsewhere I think can agree with this description: In the vast, vast majority of small dailies and weeklies, anything seriously wrong with a report gets corrected, usually within a short time. If the report is on an important enough subject, the information is often published correctly in some other periodical, often a competing one, although a newspaper will seldom actually state that even a competitor was wrong (they might say "contrary to reports"). Errors are certainly made in small publications, especially in small dailies and weeklies, but they do strive to get it right, editors work with reporters to get it right, and they correct themselves. Even if this doesn't apply in other countries, it still seems more productive that editors argue the reliability of a particular source rather than disallow whole categories of sources, even about negative information.
5. BLP policy, I think, has three motivations: to simply be fair and accurate, to avoid libel suits, and to avoid embarassing Wikipedia. This applies to all established newspapers, large and small, obscure and not obscure. They want the same things and can generally be relied upon to provide them. Noroton 17:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC) (slight addition Noroton 17:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC))
This page is 289 kilobytes long. It may be helpful to move older discussion into an archive subpage. See Help:Archiving a talk page for guidance. Seriously, no-one is going to read 289 KB. could someone please update the BOT's script, because that was no archive just now, Mizabot. (Not the BOT's fault.) Newbyguesses - Talk 08:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I object to archiving an active discussion. Let's just restore it . ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry: (editing conflict: note all my summaries that say "may take time"); I already did that. See above. -- NYScholar 22:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Please help to correct the archive index. I don't know how to do that. The bot that was doing that did not function properly earlier and had blanked the page: see link about that: [2]. Someone who can do so: Please correct whatever needs correcting in the script for the bot (which was malfunctioning earlier. Thanks. -- NYScholar 22:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
After archiving this talk page into separate talk page archive pages (as requested above), I have made what I consider very minor typographical corrections to the project page. I do not believe that any of them are contentious. If any are indeed problematic, please advise below. Thank you. -- NYScholar 23:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
In the sentence "These sites should also not be included as external links in BLPs or in material about living persons in other Wikipedia space." I added the phrase "or in material about living persons in other Wikipedia space." I believe that that is consistent with the statement of this policy that precedes and follows this sentence. It appears to have consensus. [I just added a "see above" cross-ref. instead; less controversial.] Note "These sites" refer to "partisan sites" and also to "obscure newspapers" (in intention); I do not think that is currently clear. It should use the phrase "These sites and these newspapers should also not be included as external links...." Frequently in Wikipedia the "newspaper" linked to is actually a URL for the printed version of the newspaper (not the printed version of the newspaper) and the online version is, therefore, also "a site"; this discrepancy needs correction if "partisan sites" and "obscure newspapers" both stay in the sentence preceding the one that I added the prhase "or in material about living persons in other Wikipedia space" to. While "or in material about living persons in other Wikipedia space" has been debated, "material about living persons" and "biographies of living persons" are both included in
WP:BLP. I believe this matter still needs further scrutiny. --
NYScholar 23:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Your contributions and desire to improve this page are most welcome, but please be mindful that is is an official policy of Wikipedia, and that changes, even syntactical ones, may have implications beyond the good faith intentions you may have. If you want to make so many changes, please be patient, make a few changes at a time, see if they stick and if they do after a few days, do some more. Thank you for your understanding. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Jossi: I didn't realize that you had changed something that I had edited. I thought I had forgotten to save it correctly. I did not actually intend to "revert" your change. I will, as you suggest "slow down"; I am actually logging out (finally). So I will leave the changes for you and others to absorb. Did not intend to step on your or others' toes here. -- NYScholar 13:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I've changed this section to read as follows:
I've performed the following removal:
Obviously if we can write a good article without naming a private individual we should do so. That's what the word privacy means: that you don't expect to find your name dropped into an encyclopedia article without very good reason.
Equally obviously, we don't want to fuss around and drag a private individual's name into discussion simply because there is dispute on whether to use it. The discussion can take place without naming the individual. -- Tony Sidaway
OK, so that phrase is back in, despite the objections of enough editors on this page that it seems clear that it's not supported by consensus. The arguments have been made several times, but the short version is that "partisan" and "obscure" aren't defined, and are thus open to debate; also, what may be "obscure" with regard to one subject may be authoritative with regard to another.
So, let's talk about alternative ways to express what "partisan websites or obscure newspapers" is getting at.
I had proposed replacing the offending phrase with "questionable sources", since that's defined at WP:V#Questionable sources. NYScholar has a helpful discussion of the subject above, and if I'm reading him correctly seems to suggest "sources of questionable or dubious value". I think "questionable" and "dubious" are redundant, and we don't need both. How would people feel about changing the sentence so that it reads:
Howzat? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
"Questionable sources" (unreliable and unverifiable sources) links to WP:V: WP:V#Sources: WP:V#Questionable sources; "questionable websites" refers to "websites" that are not of "high quality" and are, therefore, "questionable" (not reliable and/or not verifiable) and of thus "dubious value". That is the intention of "of dubious value" as it pertains to websites. "Newspapers" are both "sources" and "websites" (URL) in Wikipedia. "Websites" are linked via URLs. But a newspaper can be either a "printed" source ("printed" version, "print" version) or a website, or both (both versions). -- NYScholar 19:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The original phrase ("Material ....") refers to "websites" in "partisan websites"--that phrase includes links to "websites" everywhere, not just as "sources" in "Notes" and/or "References" list. See the archived discussion pages for contentious debate about the distinctions between "websites" and "sources"; I am for the "Material about living persons" phrase pertaining to all such "sources" (in my view): encompassing both printed sources and internet sources ("websites"). If the Wikipedia article documents "material about living persons" via links to "websites", then "such sites" must not violate WP:V. That is my viewpoint on this matter. In stating it (here and earlier archived comments), I point out that linking to a website in Wikipedia is linking to the site as a potential source of information for readers to consult; the link serves as a "recommendation" to readers; any such "recommendations" sending readers to "sources" of information ("Material about living persons") must be in keeping with Wikipedia's core policies, which include WP:V. -- NYScholar 19:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
One should not lose sight of the fact that this sentence appears in a section of WP:BLP entitled "Reliable sources" ( WP:BLP#Reliable sources); in that context (the section), the word "websites" is clearly intended as a kind of "source". (current language of the policy). -- NYScholar 19:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
There must be a better way to define explicitly as well as to link to what Wikipedia considers "reliable and verifiable sources" for "material about living persons" as the phrase "reliable and verifiable sources" pertains to both printed sources and to internet sources (those that appear in or on or as "websites"). -- NYScholar 19:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It might be better if the sentence did not appear at all? If one wants editors to use and to refer to only "reliable and verifiable sources" (including "websites") for "material about living persons", one needs to state that in the positive (not in the negative). (?) -- NYScholar 19:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Earlier I also questioned "solely" as unverifiable and requiring "original research" (WP:NOR); I believe it violates WP:NOR. Why is "solely" necessary or helpful or in keeping with WP:NOR? Material about living persons in biographies of living persons and material about living persons in other space in Wikipedia must not come from "questionable" (or, in other words, "unreliable and unverifiable") sources or websites. Period. If it does, instructions already exist to "remove" it "on sight". That has always been clear to us and the policy project needs to make that crystal clear (I think). It must not mince words and "beat about the bush" about this matter. WP:V is core policy in Wikipedia. -- NYScholar 18:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
My point is that in order to determine whether or not information is "solely" on a blog or in another "questionable" source or website, one needs to do "original research", which violates WP:NOR. This is related to the matter discussed above because the sentence contains "solely" as well as "partisan websites" and "obscure newspapers": it's all one sentence. The features of the whole sentence need this further scrutiny. "Solely" is an adverb modifying the inclusion of everything after it: the modifiers of both "websites" and "newspapers" ("partisan" and "obscure"). It actually further limits their usage in that sentence. These are points relating to the grammar and syntax and meaning of the words in the sentence. -- NYScholar 19:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps "policy creep" led to this sentence earlier in the history of this project page's revisions? Perhaps one can find where and when in the editing history (and archived discussion about it)?
Example of the positive: "Editors must document material about living persons in Wikipedia with citations to reliable and verifiable high quality sources."
AnonEmouse's does the job. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
As per the very title of the section of WP:BLP#Reliable sources, this whole subsection deals with "sources". -- NYScholar 23:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the following sentence solves the problems previously discussed: "Material about living persons from questionable sources of dubious value should be handled with caution; if derogatory, such material should not be included at all in biographies of living people." -- NYScholar 23:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
That sentence pertains to all "sources" of "material about living persons", which includes websites accessed by way of "external links"; I do not think it is necessary to add the cross reference since WP:BLP#External links already is clear (I hope). -- NYScholar 23:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
If others still think that a cross-reference to WP:BLP#External links is necessary, please state that here and explain why for further discussion. Thank you. -- NYScholar 23:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below) [active link to "see below" in the page].
That's [bringing external links into the sources section] not what I've been doing and I can't make heads or tales of the statements above, but again, if this is an attempt to assert that content accessed by external link to pages outside of Wikipedia is treated the same as content on Wikipedia pages, that's wrong and we'll have to clarify. Reliable sources, verifiability, and citations pertain to material on Wikipedia articles and how it is supported; external links are for external links. Wikidemo 01:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Please re-read Jossi's previous comments to you (throughout)--in them, Jossi continually points out that this policy page pertains to "biographies of living persons" and the "material about living persons" in Wikipedia. It is policy. If you want to change the policy itself, you really do need to go to a proposal procedure in Wikipedia. The point of a policy page is that it is to be clear, not subject to "interpretations" of "intention" of people writing about it on talk pages. The policy is the policy as stated. It needs clarity. If you think it unclear still, then, by all means, continue discussing it, but you cannot keep trying to change the policy project page to make statements that violate core policies in Wikipedia. Again, policy statements are about policy; guidelines are just guidelines. There are differences between the status of a "policy" and a "guideline" in Wikipedia. I do not understand your continuing problems with the current versions (or the past ones that you reverted). If you "can't make heads or tales of the statements above," then I do not understand why you can't. -- NYScholar 01:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, please try to keep in mind the subject matter of the section called "Sources" in WP:BLP#Sources: it is "sources", as it states. -- NYScholar 01:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I think it possible that a better place to put a cross-ref like "Regarding external links, see above" would be in the sentence linked via "see below": "A blog or personal website self-published by the subject may be listed in the external links/further reading section if not used as a source in the article." At the end of it, one could add a cross-ref. like [quoting as an example:]
.
As I have stated earlier, I think that active voice would be clearer than the currently passive voice constructions. Also, I think statement in the positive is better than a negative construction. Instead of saying what not to do, one could more clearly state what to do. People come to this policy project page for instructions to follow (what to do); the "should not be done" construction is hiding what to do in both a negative and a passive voice construction, making it harder for a reader to know what to do. -- NYScholar 23:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
So, OK, maybe this is silly, I dunno. But do we apply BLP rules to articles about previous incarnations of living people? In some cases, I can see, maybe, how the current Dalai Lama could object to really negative content regarding one of his earlier incarnations being added. I don't imagine that this will be a situation that arises very often, but I guess it could happen. John Carter 21:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
[...removed archiving box to an active discussion among not two but at least three participants, one of whom had not yet commented. -- NYScholar 19:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)]
Note: the participants involved in the above discussion have agreed among themselves that the policy language they were discussing is currently acceptable. No representation is made that this represents any wider consensus, merely that this discussion has reached that result. Wikidemo 11:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[refactored to indicate actual state of discussion. -- NYScholar 19:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)]
So far only one user (Wikidemo) has commented on it. -- NYScholar 19:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
This page documents an official policy on the English Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance {Fact|date=September 2007} among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.
Well, as a biography project member, I don't accept many of these provisions. So, I would like a source placed on the main page supporting "wide acceptance." How many people commented on the policy provisions? What percentage of people participating on Wikipedia were aware of policy provisions under consideration before a "vote" was taken? What efforts were taken to "advertise" the proposed policy to the general group of editors? When was the Wiki wide "vote" taken, and what was the total votes, pro and con, to this "policy"? What minority tabulated the vote and made the final decision on "policy"? The imposition of minority opinion on this type of control issues has got to have a limit somewhere. WBardwin 06:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not think that the text of the page has changed dramatically since it was upgraded to policy. It is most definitively an official policy of Wikipedia, despite edits made since that time. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
In reply to WBardwin ( talk · contribs), there is no such a thing as !votes in Wikipedia, as you probably know by now. The page was heavily discussed during its development as a guideline in talk and in the mailing list. The upgrade to policy was announced on the Wikipedia signpost of July 24, 2006. It was upgraded from guideline to official policy on July 18, 2006. It has wide support from the community, referred to in ArbCom cases, and applied by patrollers of the BLP noticeboard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict):Some of the discussion took place "in the middle of the night"/wee hours of the morning, and others have not yet necessarily had opportunities to respond to it. Two users do not make a "consensus" on when discussions about WP:BLP are "done". My views are misrepresented by another user, and I want to make that clear. I proposed a statement that alters the passive voice to the active voice and that does not change the policy of WP:BLP. The policy WP:BLP still adheres to WP:V (which includes WP:V#Sources particularly) as well as Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:NOR. These are core policies in Wikipedia that all of Wikipedia must follow (not violate). If one has questions about how WP:BLP pertains to them, one must consult those project policy pages too. Thanks. -- NYScholar 19:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I also have proposed that one move the "see above" link to WP:BLP#External links to the section below which deals with "websites." I explained my reasons earlier. The whole matter of injecting "external links" issues into WP:BLP#Sources is confusing the policy statement. Once "including as an external link" was removed circa August 12/13 and after that (a part of persistent edit warring over WP:BLP#Reliable sources--see archived talk pages in archive box next to table of contents), then eventually users participating in this discussion introduced a sentence about them in an earlier section of WP:BLP on "writing"; I added a subheading "External links" for clarity. That statement is clear (I did not compose it, other(s) did), and linking back to it makes sense in the later part of the policy dealing with "websites". That is my current point of view on this matter (already stated above). The context for my proposed language is the entire rest of the policy in WP:BLP; it changes nothing. -- NYScholar 20:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please stop changing what I write: I already used bold print to indicate the sentence that I proposed (above): (edit conflict)Also: let's be entirely clear: this is not a battle for control over WP:BLP (in my own view). I simply think that passive voice constructions lead to lack of clarity especially for new editors. I do not mind if others do not agree; but I do mind when they present my proposed language as something that it is not. It is simply a suggestion about how to improve the expression of the already-existing policy in the project page. That is what talk pages are for: improving articles (including project policy pages) so that they express their content clearly and unambiguously. -- NYScholar 20:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
NYScholar proposes to change the sentence in the "Reliable Sources" portion of the policy page
from:
to:
"Editors should be cautious in considering whether or not to include in Wikipedia material about living persons that they find only in questionable sources or sources of dubious value; if the material about living persons from such sources is derogatory, they should not use this material or these sources at all in biographies of living persons or [in biographical material about living persons] elsewhere in Wikipedia." [added phrase. See below. -- NYScholar 20:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)]
["Elsewhere in Wikipedia" is contingent on the previous part of the sentence; "this material" refers back to the previous phrase: "material about living persons"; that (material about living persons) is what WP:BLP#Sources concerns: read the previous sentences and the following sentences in the policy.] Thanks. -- NYScholar 20:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[This proposal relates to a previous section of discussion headed #"Material about living persons available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers". Editing wars have related to the passage in WP:BLP#Reliable sources beginning with that phrase and also including a phrase "including as an external link"; my proposed sentence attempts to resolve confusions already discussed at length by many editors (not just two to four editors). -- NYScholar 20:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)The proposed sentence also removes the very problematic "either as sources or via external links (see above)." and, as I say above, I recommend that the "see above" which links to WP:BLP#External links appear lower down in the later section on "websites" (already quoted: just see the policy WP:BLP#Sources. -- NYScholar 20:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[Comments reposted from above]
I have no objection at all with people trying to improve the language that I suggest. I still think that the phrase ""either as sources or via external links (see above)." is problematic and misplaced in WP:BLP#Sources. As I say above, I still recommend that the "see above" which links to WP:BLP#External links appear lower down in the later section on "websites" (already quoted: just see the policy WP:BLP#Sources. -- NYScholar 20:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Once again (sigh): I have not "been arguing" what Wikidemo states that I have "been arguing"; my comments repeatedly state that he is misinterpreting what my sentence states and what I intend to state in it. -- NYScholar 20:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"elsewhere in Wikipedia" is referring back to "material about living persons" and using sources for "material about living persons" that are "questionable" (not reliable and/or not verifiable) or using sources that are "of dubious value"; WP:BLP already states that one cannot do that anywhere in Wikipedia in the lead of the policy statement. I have also (earlier) stated that I think it is better to state a policy in positive terms (what one can do) not in negative terms (what one cannot do); but in that this part of the policy statement focuses on what not to do (albeit in passive voice), I have adapted to that fact. I would prefer that a positive statement not a negative statement appear in WP:BLP#Reliable sources. But, given the negative statement, I have tried to work with it. -- NYScholar 20:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I added a phrase "biographical material about living persons" (which is what I have intended all along and the referent for "material about living persons" throughout WP:BLP: scroll up to beginning of the policy page. -- NYScholar 20:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"Editors should be cautious in exercise caution in when considering whether or not to include in Wikipedia material about living persons that they find only in questionable sources or in sources of dubious value; if the material about living persons from such sources is derogatory, they editors should not use this material it or these sources at all in biographies of living persons or in biographical material about living persons elsewhere in Wikipedia."
--
NYScholar 20:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[Revised further:]
"Editors should be cautious in exercise caution when considering whether or not to include in Wikipedia material about living persons that they find in questionable sources or in sources of dubious value, especially if it is derogatory. They should use If editors do use derogatory biographical material about living persons that is derogatory,in Wikipedia only if they can must document it only with
reliable, verifiable, notable sources. in compliance with all
Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, including the rest of this policy."
--
NYScholar 20:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC) [added "including the rest of this policy" (which deals with websites and external links to them, etc.). --
NYScholar 20:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[Added strikeout and incorporated suggestions from others. --
NYScholar 08:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
[See also: WP:BLP#Well known public figures, which has some important information pertaining to points of view about them. -- NYScholar 20:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)]
This is a discussion page; please do not stifle discussion. All participants are equal in Wikipedia. Please keep that in mind. Thank you. -- NYScholar 20:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please understand: I welcome your (everyone's) comments; I just don't welcome nastiness (from anyone). I appreciate any constructive discussion. Thanks. -- NYScholar 21:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
My concerns about the wording relate to readers of it who are inexperienced or new Wikipedia editors or other users (including the subjects of biographies of living persons--the living persons who may be encountering "material about living persons" pertaining to themselves in Wikipedia). For all such users, links to policies and guidelines can be helpful. That is my thinking. -- NYScholar 21:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
NYScholar: This sounds a bit like a monologue. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Jossi: Did you consult the
dialogue in the archive page (15) linked above as an example of my concerns? That entire matter concerning a
WP:BLP and "contentious" and disputed "material about a living person" in Wikipedia articles and talk space and editing histories may still need administrative assistance. There is still an active link to the article being disputed in another user's (Ovid Plastering)'s [Actually, it's in the anon IP user's talk page, where the other user placed it] talk page (Wikipedia space) and in editing histories. I would appreciate your and other administrators' helping with that situation if you can. Resolving it appears to me to be not a editorial matter but an administrative matter. (I had posted a request on your talk page about problems re: this
WP:BLP project page but got no response a couple of days ago.) Thanks. --
NYScholar 23:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC) [corr. as updated. --
NYScholar 09:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
I have posted about Murray Waas to the WP:BLP/N so that seasoned administrators (I hope) can consider it. I myself do not have time to deal with it any further. -- NYScholar 00:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
[DGG: could you move this comment above this section to the section w/ the proposal version that you are responding to? Thanks. -- NYScholar 08:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
"Editors should exercise caution when considering whether or not to include in Wikipedia material about living persons that they find in questionable sources or in sources of dubious value, especially if it is derogatory. If editors do use derogatory biographical material about living persons in Wikipedia, they must document it with reliable, verifiable, notable sources." -- NYScholar 08:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC) [Sorry forgot link; added it. -- NYScholar 08:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
Whew. I just read all the drama which had occurred on this talk page since I last visited it. I apologize if my lack of comment delayed closure on this subject: I dropped by after Wikidemo had changed the wording to include "sources of dubious value" and closed the conversation, and thought that the situation was resolved. My bad.
For the record: I don't object strongly to the current wording of the sentence (that is: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all in biographies of living people, either as sources or via external links ( see above).) I still think that the distinction NYScholar is drawing between "questionable sources" (regarding verifiability) and "sources of dubious value" (regarding notability) is not one that will be immediately clear to readers, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to make a fuss.
Also, for the record, I don't think that the proposed change to the active voice improves the sentence. One advantage of the active voice over the passive is that the passive often lends itself to circumlocution and imprecision; however, the phrase "...should exercise caution when considering whether or not to include" is far more circumlocutive than the current phrasing. That said, the second sentence NYScholar proposes (If editors do use derogatory biographical material about living persons in Wikipedia, they must document it with reliable, verifiable, notable sources.) may be a useful addition and/or clarification to the policy. That said, the active voice in that sentence suggests that the responsibility for finding sources belongs solely to the editor who adds information. It's true that the onus for providing sources is on the editor who adds information, but there's also a sense in which it is the responsibility of any editor who works on a biographical article to ensure that all derogatory information is well sourced. Because of that element of shared responsibility, I wonder whether the passive voice would be more appropriate as well. That would result in the following:
Would this be a compromise acceptable to NYScholar and other editors? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
[Additional clarification/explanation: There is a difference between entirely "unsourced" material and "poorly sourced" material. This section of WP:BLP ( WP:BLP#Sources) addresses [both "unsourced" and?] "poorly sourced" "derogatory" "material about living persons" (the nature and quality of the sources provided to document the material [statements]), which is (was) the subject of the paragraph in question in WP:BLP#Reliable sources (see editing history). The sentence in the "compromise" proposed by Josiah Rowe emphasizes the necessity for editors to provide what elsewhere--see WP:V--Wikipedia policy calls "impeccable" sources: these are (in Wikipedia terminology) "reliable, verifiable, notable sources" [restrictive commas intended]. (See WP:V, WP:Reliable sources, and Wikipedia:Notability for reference; further explanation in my "Note" archived below.) I tend to prefer the more academic phrase: "Editors must document ... with sources...." to "material that is poorly sourced" (another passive construction); "sourced" and "poorly sourced" are odd constructions that one finds throughout Wikipedia. "To document" statements with sources is an action. -- NYScholar 23:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
[Please see Archive 11. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[Please see Archive 12. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in Archive 13. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[These three sections are in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is also in Archive 14. Thank you. Repeated here due to its being an administrative notice. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section and related subsections are in Archive 14 [and 15]. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)] [Updating archiving. --15:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)]
I added some bold font in the policy page, thinking that I had seen it in earlier versions and that it had been inadvertently omitted in people's revisions. But, having checked the editing history over parts of July/August, I don't find it in earlier versions; e.g., 15059912. It apears that heavy editing and some edit warring perhaps was going on in the period of July to August 2007 (and post-August 12). Nevertheless, I think the bold print is helpful (given the bold print in the next paragraph and earlier). I think it is a typographical improvement. I hope that no one objects to my adding it. -- NYScholar 00:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
What about italics instead of bold print (when the time comes)? -- NYScholar 04:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC) I changed the bold that is inconsistent with Wikipedia Style Manual [to] italics. -- NYScholar 05:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC) [tc sorry. -- NYScholar 05:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)]
"please alert us on the BLP noticeboard." Who could this "us" be. Can't be the community because it talks about editors who would be part of the community alerting "us". Can't be the foundation because BLP notice board is not an accepted way of contacting the foundation. So who is it? Geni 18:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I have a question regarding acceptable sources when writing an article about a currently living scientist/scholar. Is it appropriate to cite the CV of such a person (which is often available at that person's website) as a source for some biographical data? Thanks, Nsk92 15:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to add a 4.7, Privacy of sexual preferences, incorporating some of the language of the category rules, something along the lines of (abbreviated suggestion further down, in bold):
“ | Information regarding sexual preference of the subject or the subject's associates should not be included unless the sexual preference is relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources. (Example, the sexual preference of Rosie O'Donnell is relevant to her article because she is an outspoken gay rights advocate whose sexuality is moreover self-professed.) Articles should not contain information on the sexual preferences of a public individual who has not self-professed per reliable sources and on whose notability sexual preference has no bearing. (Example, sexual preference has no bearing on musicianship and is immaterial to an article on a musician.) Sexual behavior may be notable and reported without speculation about preference. (Example, it may be reported that a pop star has been convicted of sexual activity with a minor, but that pop star may not be labeled a "pedophile".) There may be occasions when the sexual preferences of the subject's associates are relevant to the notability of a subject. (Example, an advocate who was inspired to advocacy by the experiences of a gay sibling.) In most instances, the sexual preferences of a subject's associates will be immaterial and not merit inclusion even if self-professed. | ” |
This question is inspired by recent conversations at the BLP noticeboard--should Clay Aiken be identified as gay? Should Tim LaHaye's son be identified as gay? As Steve Dufour points out, this is an issue frequently reported at that noticeboard. The language I've used may be problematic, though, because sometimes sexual preference may not be self-professed, yet still unquestioned. Matthew Shepard's sexual preference is highly relevant to his notability. If Mathew's mother were to spearhead a foundation in his honor, mention of her son's sexual preference would certainly be relevant, if not self-identified. I am very open to input on the suggested change and the wording. :) -- Moonriddengirl 15:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Way to long to be included so no. Geni 18:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
We should consider a person's sexual preference like the person's address. Wikipedia should generally not write about it, except when it has specific notability related to the person. A person's address has specific notability when having famous neighbours, for example. User:Krator ( t c) 21:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Aiming for brevity and clarity, building on above discussion, 4.7 or some other number, Privacy of sexual preferences, something along the lines of
“ | Sexual preference should not be asserted unless self-professed in a reliable, published source. Information related to sexual behavior or controversy regarding sexual preference may be notable and, if reported in a reliable published source, can be included without speculation about preference. Inclusion must not give such material undue weight.(It may be noted that a pop star has been convicted of sexual activity with a minor, but that pop star may not be labeled a "pedophile".) | ” |
I'm sure that's still too long. I'm not always good at writing brief. :) -- Moonriddengirl 21:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
A restateing of what is already on the page. There is simply no point in adding it unless you are trying to make the page so long no one will read it. Geni 03:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This is growing a bit complicated. :) In an effort to determine if pursuing policy clarification is beneficial, I'm going to try to figure out how much support there is for such a change. In terms of incorporating a policy, we seem to have three completely against ( User:Geni, User:Ned Scott), & Vassyana. There are six who seem to believe some kind of guideline is appropriate ( User:Maria202, User:Jmh123, User:Jossi, User:Krator, User:Dicklyon, and me. There's two undecided or unconvinced: User:Wikidemo and User:Will Beback. There's one neutral User:LessHeard vanU. There are two on whose positions on including specific reference I'm unclear: User:BCST2001 and User:Aquillion. Obviously, I do believe that inclusion of some specific guideline is relevant. I think the discussion that's been taking place here is evidence in itself that policy is not easily interpreted. (Updated at 17:38 on September 10)-- Moonriddengirl 16:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
My view is that the language proposed reflects current practice and so it may not be necessary to include it in the policy. The need for it could be established by reviewing actual instances in which editors were unable to agree on whether to make a declaration about the sexual orientation of a subject. If we decide we need to make a policy addition I'd like to see it expanded to include religion, a topic that generates at least as much controversy as sexual orientation, and which likewise depends ultimately on self-identification by the subject. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Is unwarranted speculation and identification of people's sexual preference a significant problem here on Wikipedia? To avoid rule creep I would hold the line on proposals to add things in BLP that are not real, widespread issues that existing policy is inadequate to handle. Wikidemo 22:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Will Beback, the line you quote does not establish the standard for notability; rather, it simply presumes and refers to that standard. This is the whole problem. People in fact ignore what the standard of notability is, and proceed directly to the question of whether it has been noted in the media. Whether something appears in the media and whether it is notable in terms of Wikipedia and WP:BLP are two different questions. Notability has to mean, according to WP:BLP, notability in relation to the subject of the entry. Where the material is contentious, controversial, or insensitive, the notability criterion becomes crucial. If the material does not directly concern the reasons for the notability of the subject, and the material is contentious, controversial, or insensitive, it should be excluded. That is why there are two different examples given: one concerns a politician and one concerns a messy divorce. In the case of a politician, the reasons for their notability (running for public office) mean that sexual scandal may indeed need to be included in the article. In the case of many (indeed most) other biographical entries, details of messy divorcees, sexual scandals, or speculation or innuendo about sexual orientation are simply not notable, may often be contentious or insensitive, and thus must, most of the time, be excluded. This is what editors fail to understand or enforce, but policy on the matter is in fact quite clear. BCST2001 01:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This seems like instructions creep to me as well. Including or excluding sexual preference doesn't seem like an issue. If the information is private, without proper sources, and isn't relevant, then it's unlikely that we'll desire to include it. If someone comes along and tries to use this information as an attack or as vandalism, we can remove it simply for being an attack. -- Ned Scott 04:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Will Beback, the most relevant parts of WP:BLP are the following (I have placed some of the most important parts in bold type for your benefit):
Please note especially the line requiring "a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability." This is specifically state that contentious material must be clearly demonstrated to be relevant to the person's notability, that is, it cannot simply be incidental to that notability. Without that clear demonstration it must be excluded. Thus, as I have stated, in most cases the sexuality of a person is not relevant to their notability (politicians being a notable exception to this). But this one line should not be looked at in isolation either. The entirety of the section I have cited must be considered as a whole, as well as the entire rationale for WP:BLP. It is the precise goal of WP:BLP as a whole to make possible this kind of exclusion. BCST2001 01:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's look at the example of Larry Craig. He is notable for being a U.S. Senator. He was arrested and pleaded guilty to disturbing the peace. The media speculated that he had attempted to solicit gay sex. He made an announcement that included the statement, "I'm not gay". He has complained about being harassed by the media over the allegations, and I believe he's asked for his privacy. The entire issue is contentious. Under your interpretation of BLP, if I understand correctly, we would not be able to include even Craig's own statements denying the rumors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Aquillion, you are completely correct in your argument that the only way to know what belongs and what does not is by examining each case. In other words, WP:BLP does not eliminate the need for judgment. I completely agree with you, and I don't believe I have argued anything other than that. But even so, WP:BLP gives very important guidance about how to make those judgments, and the two examples are a very important part of that guidance. You are correct that it is feasible that there will be some case where the details of a messy divorce are relevant to a biographical entry about a singer. But on the other hand, this possibility should not diminish awareness of what, in general, the difference between a politician and a singer is: a politician is an figure seeking our approval to control our government. That is the basis on which the community judges, for better or worse, that sexual and other personal morality may be relevant to their being a politician. This argument does not in general hold for singers, and sexual morality is not in general relevant to their notability, even if there are many people who are interested in the sexuality or sexual morality of some particular singer. I would put it like this: in cases where a politician is caught in a sexual scandal, it is crucially important that Wikipedia get its coverage right; in cases where the sexuality of some pop singer is raised as though it is notable, it is crucially important not to presume that the material is notable, nor to find this or that pretext to justify including material which is really only of prurient or other tabloid-type (that is, non-encyclopaedic) interest. But, again, none of that is to deny that examination of the particular case and the use of judgment is not also crucial. The form this takes in WP:BLP cases is that a consensus of community opinion must be found to include contentious material before it can be included, and the burden of proof to establish notablity lies with the editor wishing to include or restore material. And notability must be established in relation to the notability of the subject. BCST2001 08:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I am reading all he above debate and cannot make heads or tails from it. If there is material related to sexual orientation in a BLP that is either self-declared, or described in verifiable sources and notable, what would exempt us from describing it in an article? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
If you look back at what has been written, I don't think you will find any statement that says "we can only print a statement by a public figure about his or her sexuality if it is preceded by an arrest." You should really stop attributing positions to people that they have clearly not expressed. You do not understand correctly, and it does seem you are determined not to understand. BCST2001 00:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Will Beback, you are asking for an iron law where none is possible. As has been mentioned, judgment is necessary, but WP:BLP provides very important guidance about how to make that judgment. Every situation is different. For example, when somebody issues a public statement declaring that they are homosexual, that is very different from a frustrated objection and denial given in the course of an interview where there is no actual sourced information about the sexuality of the person. In the latter case, insisting on including this material is furthering the rumour, perpetuating innuendo, and doing harm. If you cannot grasp the difference, then that is your opinion. I think you are wrong, but the point is that it is neither your judgment nor mine that matters, but the judgment of the Wikipedia community. If they decide something can be included according to policy, then it can be included. But the burden of proof in WP:BLP cases lies with those wishing to include, and among the things they have to "clearly demonstrate" is the relevance of the material to the notability of the subject. And where there is contention and controversy about whether to include or exclude something, policy dictates editing conservatively, responsibly, and sensitively. That is, where there is no consensus, material such as this should be excluded. I don't think there is any point in my explaining this further. What seems perfectly clear and sensible to me is apparently obscure to you—I'm unsure why that is, but I do believe you need to reflect further on the nature of this policy. BCST2001 01:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is no consensus on the subject, as attested by this discussion or by wording on the policy page resulting from discussion, there is no rule. In this case, there is such wording, and I quote: When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. Therefore if a version is these three things, it is perfectly acceptable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
In fact I quoted policy continuously. I am unclear where it is you disagree with me. BCST2001 06:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
(comment/question a specific article, Glenn Greenwald) Given the discussion above (on the sexual preference provision), I was wondering about the specific case of Glenn Greenwald's article. He self-identifies as gay, but it is not pertinent to why he is notable, so I'm inclined to take it out. On the other hand, he is in the LGBT cat., and rightly so, and I don't like the idea of including (someone or something) in a category without something in the article to back it up. So, should it be included now? Is there a different way to do it? And, does the change mentioned above affect this situation? Any thoughts? R. Baley 22:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I recently discussed with another editor the merits of including salary information. (1) There is a tradition in society that regards pay levels or salary as private information. But that isn't an absolute. In many cases, such as soldiers, civil servants, politicians, bureaucrats, and executives of both corporations and non-profits, the base salaries are available through primary sources. In a very few cases, pay information is available through secondary sources (or even promoted by PR agents); most of those involve performers, sportsmen, CEOs, and a few other high profile categories. PR folks are often eager to release pay information about their stars, thouogh the info may not always be reliable. I see three basic distinctions and their likely disposition: salary info with no sources (delete); jobs for which salaries are available through primary sources only (annual reports, government pay scales, etc.) (delete); high profile jobs: 'commissions' movie roles, prominent artworks, sports figures, CEOs, whose figures are reported in secondary sources (keep). Is that sufficiently obvious in the existing policy or should we add a line about how to handle pay? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Please see top of page for indication of what has been archived. Thanks. -- NYScholar 15:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been given the understand that this is a policy page. As such it is something that should be read and and followed (or filled with the bunch of one off cases that make it a great weapon for rule laywers but useless for getting things done opinion appears to be devided). However neither of these are helped by adding about a kilobyte of quote. If you want people to read and apply the document it needs to be kept as sort as posible. Adding quotes does not facilitate this. Geni 15:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, during the development of BLP, we took into considerations the many comments of Jimbo on the subject. The additions of these comments have been in this page for a long time and I do not see any compelling reasons not to continue having these, in particular as BLP keeps being mentioned in the press, is widely applied, and it is used as the basis for many WP:OTRS interventions. I would argue that any dilution of this policy will require a substantial discussion and agreement. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
... without consensus will be challenged. This is an official policy of Wikipedia, and the current wording is the result of previous discussions. If you want to challenge any portion, wording, or formulation of the policy, discuss first, out of respect for standing consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLP refers to [removing on sight] [poorly-documented or undocumented: "poorly sourced or unsourced"] "contentious" "material about living persons" whether or not it is "positive", "negative", or "just questionable"; that is explicit and not confined to the "scandalous, damaging, and novel". Those kinds of statements invent criteria in WP:BLP that are not the policy.
After participating in discussions on this talk page over the past month or so, I have begun to wonder whether or not there are particular agenda that others have in discussing WP:BLP (and WP:EL, in the archived discussions). Some statements made really do not seem in keeping with WP:BLP as it has existed since its inception (longer than a half-year). I have been trying to follow WP:BLP in its various states for the time that I have been here (since it was a policy that one could refer to); in my case, for over two years. (I did not realize that it was being heavily edited until just this past month, because I did not look at its editing history before August.) I have not until this summer encountered such comments about the policy. I do not understand the rationale of those who make them. It seems to me that some may be attempting to open up Wikipedia articles about living persons to material that has previously been prohibited from Wikipedia: the passage under discussion is a very crucial passage. These new distinctions being made seem to be either intentional or unintentional attempts to weaken it (water it down). The purpose if there is one is unclear to me. (These comments are not in any way intended to be "uncivil": they are observations after seeing patterns in the comments being made particularly over the past month and especially these past few days.) There is a difference between "censorship" (in my view an absurd claim) and proper judgment and avoidance of Wikipedia:Libel of living persons.
As a Wikipedia editor (who is also a living person), perhaps editors should ask themselves the following hypothetical question: "(If I were deemed notable enough to warrant an article about me in Wikipedia) Would I want to permit such ["poorly sourced or unsourced"] "contentious material" being included about me (anywhere) in Wikipedia?"
There are such things as conventions of civil discourse (in academic discourse; in scholarship; in respectable journalism [in Wikipedia, generally not Blogs), other writing published in print encyclopedia), as well as legal conventions ("laws") pertaining to content published about living persons. I think that as editors of an online encyclopedia which gets distributed and re-distributed through its displaying GFDL, Wikipedia editors have a central responsibility in adhering to Wikipedia's clearly-established standards in WP:BLP. This discussion is not a substitute for the policy and, as I have said now many times, changing the policy is not a matter for its talk page; there is a clear-cut defined Wikipedia policy and procedure for making changes to policies. Policy changes occur according to such procedures; not in edit warring on talk pages of the policies. These distinctions that I see people coming up with here are policy changes not merely changes in wording of policy. --- NYScholar 22:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[added clarifications in brackets; I think people can read the policy to see what it says. -- NYScholar 22:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)][ditto. -- NYScholar 22:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)]
It particularly troubles me that some of the people making what seem to be forays into
WP:BLP are editors heavily involved in creating and editing biographies of living persons (the project). That these editors are questioning and complaining about long-standing
WP:BLP policy definitions really troubles me, because, as they are doing so, so they are may also be contributing to and editing biographies of living persons as they might prefer the policies to allow them to do. [I don't know.] I wonder how many recent biographies of living persons violate some of the standards of
WP:BLP if they are being edited according to practices that are not in keeping with current
WP:BLP? (I don't know but I do wonder.) I do know that there is a big problem in biographies of living persons and in material about living persons in Wikipedia that other editors are attempting to deal with, and that the problem seems to be extensive; I do not know if it is pervasive. Perhaps someone can point to the project page where these problematic biographies of living persons and articles with such questionable material are listed. ??? --
NYScholar 22:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[strike out and clarification; I really don't know; from the recent remarks by a number of editors, I really wonder.... --
NYScholar 22:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)]
I still think that the current wording with a small change, captures the spirit of the policy, as follows:
The "whether negative, positive, or just questionable" was added after a long discussion, and ot addresses the fact that we are not only referring to negative material, but to positive or questionable material as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I just deleted an addition that someone added w/o prior discussion; it is not a stylistic change: The content added is: "In particular, speculation about the health or death of a living person is not to be included in articles. A biography of a living person should not be changed to characterize them as dead or dying, unless supported by reliable sources with citations to allow verification."
Such content needs discussion. Adding it does not follow the warning at the top of the project page. -- NYScholar 23:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)[I will also state that I do not think such a deletion as this one should be subject to WP:3RR because WP:BLP is a policy page and has special requirements relating to editing it. When people change the policy page in a manner that violates the warning at the top of the page, deletions of those changes are in keeping with these requirements. This page may need protection against editing if such content changes continue. -- NYScholar 23:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
It is the responsibility of the editor who wants to add the content to come to this talk page to discuss it (first). It is clearly something that requires prior discussion and the development of consensus. (The content added appears unnecessary to me because it involves "poorly sourced or unsourced" "material about a living person" [e.g., in the phrase "unless supported by reliable sources with citations to allow verification"], which is already covered in the policy.) -- NYScholar 23:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
[Altered heading to be clearer what this is about: --
NYScholar 01:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)]
==="all pages in Wikipedia"===
Jossi: I thought "in Wikipedia" was clear; see above. "all pages in Wikipedia" seems less clear to me that "in Wikipedia" (period). Some parts of Wikipedia are not "pages" from some people's perspective. "In Wikipedia" relates to all of the encyclopedia space. --
NYScholar 23:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC) rethought. --
NYScholar 00:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I just attempted to improve on the original meaning. As it seems that you object, I have restored to the original formulation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
It would be wise to read the discussion above before jumping in, NYScholar. It is more efficient that way, you know? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
This is getting very confusing: which is the "original formulation"? What date are you reverting that back to? I really agree with the gist of what I think you were doing, I just don't think the phrase accomplished it. What is incorrect (not in keeping with the WP:BLP) in the phrase "from Wikipedia?" Please explain. Thanks. -- NYScholar 01:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
(BTW: I read the discussion up to this point. I just hadn't commented on some of it. -- NYScholar 01:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC))
Query (not satisfied with previous discussion re: this question): How is "Wikipedia articles, [2] talk pages, user pages, and project space" not "Wikipedia"? There was discussion earlier about other material that is not the encyclopedia that one means by Wikipedia; perhaps one needs to link to Wikipedia in "from Wikipedia?" ?? -- NYScholar 02:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Currently the policy page addresses the EL issue in two sentences, as follows:
I would argue that these two sentences encompass all the issues related to ELs in BLPs. Can we archive the discussion now? We do not need any other specific limitations for ELs on BLPs. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Re: the question "Aren't we done?": Consensus is an ongoing process in Wikipedia: see Wikipedia:Consensus; "we" few people who have been debating these matters are not the final arbiters of them. Changes to policy project pages are not supposed to be made this way (in the process of editing wars). Please see the statement about that on project pages for policies. Proposals for altering (changing) policies have a procedure in Wikipedia. This talk page has generally ignored that; I have pointed it out, linked to procedure, but that has been ignored. I have tried to confine my comments to the talk pages and except for very minor edits since August 12, I have not been participating in edit warring over the language of this project page; I have just been discussing it. That is what a talk page is for. Please read the previous discussion by me and others so that one can see what is at issue and what is not at issue about WP:BLP#Reliable sources and WP:BLP as it pertains to WP:EL. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Responding to Will's comment above, I would say that "obscure newspapers" is a judgment that editors can easily make, and that they can discuss with other editors on specific cases if that "obscurity" is challenged. We could attempt to find a different distinction, but I have been unable to come up with a better one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) 1. Someone please tell me if this is NOT correct: The intent behind the "obscure newspapers" inclusion is an effort to create a higher standard of reliable sources than we have at WP:Reliable sources.
2. If so, why is the "reliable source" standard not enough? I'm sorry if this has been covered before (just point me to the spot and I'll read it). If the intent is merely to ensure that sources of negative information for living persons are reliable, we don't need to duplicate the standard we already have. Is there some incident we don't want repeated that this policy discussion stemmed from?
3. Jossi says (03:03) "obscure newspapers" is a judgment that editors can easily make, but Wikidemo in the post just above brings up points and examples that describe some of the predictable arguments. It seems to me it would be better for future editors to be arguing over the reliability of the source rather than its obscurity.
4. Wikipedia editors from the U.S. and perhaps elsewhere I think can agree with this description: In the vast, vast majority of small dailies and weeklies, anything seriously wrong with a report gets corrected, usually within a short time. If the report is on an important enough subject, the information is often published correctly in some other periodical, often a competing one, although a newspaper will seldom actually state that even a competitor was wrong (they might say "contrary to reports"). Errors are certainly made in small publications, especially in small dailies and weeklies, but they do strive to get it right, editors work with reporters to get it right, and they correct themselves. Even if this doesn't apply in other countries, it still seems more productive that editors argue the reliability of a particular source rather than disallow whole categories of sources, even about negative information.
5. BLP policy, I think, has three motivations: to simply be fair and accurate, to avoid libel suits, and to avoid embarassing Wikipedia. This applies to all established newspapers, large and small, obscure and not obscure. They want the same things and can generally be relied upon to provide them. Noroton 17:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC) (slight addition Noroton 17:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC))
This page is 289 kilobytes long. It may be helpful to move older discussion into an archive subpage. See Help:Archiving a talk page for guidance. Seriously, no-one is going to read 289 KB. could someone please update the BOT's script, because that was no archive just now, Mizabot. (Not the BOT's fault.) Newbyguesses - Talk 08:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I object to archiving an active discussion. Let's just restore it . ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry: (editing conflict: note all my summaries that say "may take time"); I already did that. See above. -- NYScholar 22:34, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Please help to correct the archive index. I don't know how to do that. The bot that was doing that did not function properly earlier and had blanked the page: see link about that: [2]. Someone who can do so: Please correct whatever needs correcting in the script for the bot (which was malfunctioning earlier. Thanks. -- NYScholar 22:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
After archiving this talk page into separate talk page archive pages (as requested above), I have made what I consider very minor typographical corrections to the project page. I do not believe that any of them are contentious. If any are indeed problematic, please advise below. Thank you. -- NYScholar 23:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
In the sentence "These sites should also not be included as external links in BLPs or in material about living persons in other Wikipedia space." I added the phrase "or in material about living persons in other Wikipedia space." I believe that that is consistent with the statement of this policy that precedes and follows this sentence. It appears to have consensus. [I just added a "see above" cross-ref. instead; less controversial.] Note "These sites" refer to "partisan sites" and also to "obscure newspapers" (in intention); I do not think that is currently clear. It should use the phrase "These sites and these newspapers should also not be included as external links...." Frequently in Wikipedia the "newspaper" linked to is actually a URL for the printed version of the newspaper (not the printed version of the newspaper) and the online version is, therefore, also "a site"; this discrepancy needs correction if "partisan sites" and "obscure newspapers" both stay in the sentence preceding the one that I added the prhase "or in material about living persons in other Wikipedia space" to. While "or in material about living persons in other Wikipedia space" has been debated, "material about living persons" and "biographies of living persons" are both included in
WP:BLP. I believe this matter still needs further scrutiny. --
NYScholar 23:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Your contributions and desire to improve this page are most welcome, but please be mindful that is is an official policy of Wikipedia, and that changes, even syntactical ones, may have implications beyond the good faith intentions you may have. If you want to make so many changes, please be patient, make a few changes at a time, see if they stick and if they do after a few days, do some more. Thank you for your understanding. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Jossi: I didn't realize that you had changed something that I had edited. I thought I had forgotten to save it correctly. I did not actually intend to "revert" your change. I will, as you suggest "slow down"; I am actually logging out (finally). So I will leave the changes for you and others to absorb. Did not intend to step on your or others' toes here. -- NYScholar 13:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I've changed this section to read as follows:
I've performed the following removal:
Obviously if we can write a good article without naming a private individual we should do so. That's what the word privacy means: that you don't expect to find your name dropped into an encyclopedia article without very good reason.
Equally obviously, we don't want to fuss around and drag a private individual's name into discussion simply because there is dispute on whether to use it. The discussion can take place without naming the individual. -- Tony Sidaway
OK, so that phrase is back in, despite the objections of enough editors on this page that it seems clear that it's not supported by consensus. The arguments have been made several times, but the short version is that "partisan" and "obscure" aren't defined, and are thus open to debate; also, what may be "obscure" with regard to one subject may be authoritative with regard to another.
So, let's talk about alternative ways to express what "partisan websites or obscure newspapers" is getting at.
I had proposed replacing the offending phrase with "questionable sources", since that's defined at WP:V#Questionable sources. NYScholar has a helpful discussion of the subject above, and if I'm reading him correctly seems to suggest "sources of questionable or dubious value". I think "questionable" and "dubious" are redundant, and we don't need both. How would people feel about changing the sentence so that it reads:
Howzat? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
"Questionable sources" (unreliable and unverifiable sources) links to WP:V: WP:V#Sources: WP:V#Questionable sources; "questionable websites" refers to "websites" that are not of "high quality" and are, therefore, "questionable" (not reliable and/or not verifiable) and of thus "dubious value". That is the intention of "of dubious value" as it pertains to websites. "Newspapers" are both "sources" and "websites" (URL) in Wikipedia. "Websites" are linked via URLs. But a newspaper can be either a "printed" source ("printed" version, "print" version) or a website, or both (both versions). -- NYScholar 19:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The original phrase ("Material ....") refers to "websites" in "partisan websites"--that phrase includes links to "websites" everywhere, not just as "sources" in "Notes" and/or "References" list. See the archived discussion pages for contentious debate about the distinctions between "websites" and "sources"; I am for the "Material about living persons" phrase pertaining to all such "sources" (in my view): encompassing both printed sources and internet sources ("websites"). If the Wikipedia article documents "material about living persons" via links to "websites", then "such sites" must not violate WP:V. That is my viewpoint on this matter. In stating it (here and earlier archived comments), I point out that linking to a website in Wikipedia is linking to the site as a potential source of information for readers to consult; the link serves as a "recommendation" to readers; any such "recommendations" sending readers to "sources" of information ("Material about living persons") must be in keeping with Wikipedia's core policies, which include WP:V. -- NYScholar 19:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
One should not lose sight of the fact that this sentence appears in a section of WP:BLP entitled "Reliable sources" ( WP:BLP#Reliable sources); in that context (the section), the word "websites" is clearly intended as a kind of "source". (current language of the policy). -- NYScholar 19:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
There must be a better way to define explicitly as well as to link to what Wikipedia considers "reliable and verifiable sources" for "material about living persons" as the phrase "reliable and verifiable sources" pertains to both printed sources and to internet sources (those that appear in or on or as "websites"). -- NYScholar 19:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It might be better if the sentence did not appear at all? If one wants editors to use and to refer to only "reliable and verifiable sources" (including "websites") for "material about living persons", one needs to state that in the positive (not in the negative). (?) -- NYScholar 19:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Earlier I also questioned "solely" as unverifiable and requiring "original research" (WP:NOR); I believe it violates WP:NOR. Why is "solely" necessary or helpful or in keeping with WP:NOR? Material about living persons in biographies of living persons and material about living persons in other space in Wikipedia must not come from "questionable" (or, in other words, "unreliable and unverifiable") sources or websites. Period. If it does, instructions already exist to "remove" it "on sight". That has always been clear to us and the policy project needs to make that crystal clear (I think). It must not mince words and "beat about the bush" about this matter. WP:V is core policy in Wikipedia. -- NYScholar 18:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
My point is that in order to determine whether or not information is "solely" on a blog or in another "questionable" source or website, one needs to do "original research", which violates WP:NOR. This is related to the matter discussed above because the sentence contains "solely" as well as "partisan websites" and "obscure newspapers": it's all one sentence. The features of the whole sentence need this further scrutiny. "Solely" is an adverb modifying the inclusion of everything after it: the modifiers of both "websites" and "newspapers" ("partisan" and "obscure"). It actually further limits their usage in that sentence. These are points relating to the grammar and syntax and meaning of the words in the sentence. -- NYScholar 19:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps "policy creep" led to this sentence earlier in the history of this project page's revisions? Perhaps one can find where and when in the editing history (and archived discussion about it)?
Example of the positive: "Editors must document material about living persons in Wikipedia with citations to reliable and verifiable high quality sources."
AnonEmouse's does the job. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
As per the very title of the section of WP:BLP#Reliable sources, this whole subsection deals with "sources". -- NYScholar 23:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the following sentence solves the problems previously discussed: "Material about living persons from questionable sources of dubious value should be handled with caution; if derogatory, such material should not be included at all in biographies of living people." -- NYScholar 23:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
That sentence pertains to all "sources" of "material about living persons", which includes websites accessed by way of "external links"; I do not think it is necessary to add the cross reference since WP:BLP#External links already is clear (I hope). -- NYScholar 23:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
If others still think that a cross-reference to WP:BLP#External links is necessary, please state that here and explain why for further discussion. Thank you. -- NYScholar 23:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below) [active link to "see below" in the page].
That's [bringing external links into the sources section] not what I've been doing and I can't make heads or tales of the statements above, but again, if this is an attempt to assert that content accessed by external link to pages outside of Wikipedia is treated the same as content on Wikipedia pages, that's wrong and we'll have to clarify. Reliable sources, verifiability, and citations pertain to material on Wikipedia articles and how it is supported; external links are for external links. Wikidemo 01:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Please re-read Jossi's previous comments to you (throughout)--in them, Jossi continually points out that this policy page pertains to "biographies of living persons" and the "material about living persons" in Wikipedia. It is policy. If you want to change the policy itself, you really do need to go to a proposal procedure in Wikipedia. The point of a policy page is that it is to be clear, not subject to "interpretations" of "intention" of people writing about it on talk pages. The policy is the policy as stated. It needs clarity. If you think it unclear still, then, by all means, continue discussing it, but you cannot keep trying to change the policy project page to make statements that violate core policies in Wikipedia. Again, policy statements are about policy; guidelines are just guidelines. There are differences between the status of a "policy" and a "guideline" in Wikipedia. I do not understand your continuing problems with the current versions (or the past ones that you reverted). If you "can't make heads or tales of the statements above," then I do not understand why you can't. -- NYScholar 01:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, please try to keep in mind the subject matter of the section called "Sources" in WP:BLP#Sources: it is "sources", as it states. -- NYScholar 01:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I think it possible that a better place to put a cross-ref like "Regarding external links, see above" would be in the sentence linked via "see below": "A blog or personal website self-published by the subject may be listed in the external links/further reading section if not used as a source in the article." At the end of it, one could add a cross-ref. like [quoting as an example:]
.
As I have stated earlier, I think that active voice would be clearer than the currently passive voice constructions. Also, I think statement in the positive is better than a negative construction. Instead of saying what not to do, one could more clearly state what to do. People come to this policy project page for instructions to follow (what to do); the "should not be done" construction is hiding what to do in both a negative and a passive voice construction, making it harder for a reader to know what to do. -- NYScholar 23:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
So, OK, maybe this is silly, I dunno. But do we apply BLP rules to articles about previous incarnations of living people? In some cases, I can see, maybe, how the current Dalai Lama could object to really negative content regarding one of his earlier incarnations being added. I don't imagine that this will be a situation that arises very often, but I guess it could happen. John Carter 21:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
[...removed archiving box to an active discussion among not two but at least three participants, one of whom had not yet commented. -- NYScholar 19:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)]
Note: the participants involved in the above discussion have agreed among themselves that the policy language they were discussing is currently acceptable. No representation is made that this represents any wider consensus, merely that this discussion has reached that result. Wikidemo 11:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[refactored to indicate actual state of discussion. -- NYScholar 19:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)]
So far only one user (Wikidemo) has commented on it. -- NYScholar 19:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
This page documents an official policy on the English Wikipedia. It has wide acceptance {Fact|date=September 2007} among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.
Well, as a biography project member, I don't accept many of these provisions. So, I would like a source placed on the main page supporting "wide acceptance." How many people commented on the policy provisions? What percentage of people participating on Wikipedia were aware of policy provisions under consideration before a "vote" was taken? What efforts were taken to "advertise" the proposed policy to the general group of editors? When was the Wiki wide "vote" taken, and what was the total votes, pro and con, to this "policy"? What minority tabulated the vote and made the final decision on "policy"? The imposition of minority opinion on this type of control issues has got to have a limit somewhere. WBardwin 06:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not think that the text of the page has changed dramatically since it was upgraded to policy. It is most definitively an official policy of Wikipedia, despite edits made since that time. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
In reply to WBardwin ( talk · contribs), there is no such a thing as !votes in Wikipedia, as you probably know by now. The page was heavily discussed during its development as a guideline in talk and in the mailing list. The upgrade to policy was announced on the Wikipedia signpost of July 24, 2006. It was upgraded from guideline to official policy on July 18, 2006. It has wide support from the community, referred to in ArbCom cases, and applied by patrollers of the BLP noticeboard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict):Some of the discussion took place "in the middle of the night"/wee hours of the morning, and others have not yet necessarily had opportunities to respond to it. Two users do not make a "consensus" on when discussions about WP:BLP are "done". My views are misrepresented by another user, and I want to make that clear. I proposed a statement that alters the passive voice to the active voice and that does not change the policy of WP:BLP. The policy WP:BLP still adheres to WP:V (which includes WP:V#Sources particularly) as well as Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:NOR. These are core policies in Wikipedia that all of Wikipedia must follow (not violate). If one has questions about how WP:BLP pertains to them, one must consult those project policy pages too. Thanks. -- NYScholar 19:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I also have proposed that one move the "see above" link to WP:BLP#External links to the section below which deals with "websites." I explained my reasons earlier. The whole matter of injecting "external links" issues into WP:BLP#Sources is confusing the policy statement. Once "including as an external link" was removed circa August 12/13 and after that (a part of persistent edit warring over WP:BLP#Reliable sources--see archived talk pages in archive box next to table of contents), then eventually users participating in this discussion introduced a sentence about them in an earlier section of WP:BLP on "writing"; I added a subheading "External links" for clarity. That statement is clear (I did not compose it, other(s) did), and linking back to it makes sense in the later part of the policy dealing with "websites". That is my current point of view on this matter (already stated above). The context for my proposed language is the entire rest of the policy in WP:BLP; it changes nothing. -- NYScholar 20:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please stop changing what I write: I already used bold print to indicate the sentence that I proposed (above): (edit conflict)Also: let's be entirely clear: this is not a battle for control over WP:BLP (in my own view). I simply think that passive voice constructions lead to lack of clarity especially for new editors. I do not mind if others do not agree; but I do mind when they present my proposed language as something that it is not. It is simply a suggestion about how to improve the expression of the already-existing policy in the project page. That is what talk pages are for: improving articles (including project policy pages) so that they express their content clearly and unambiguously. -- NYScholar 20:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
NYScholar proposes to change the sentence in the "Reliable Sources" portion of the policy page
from:
to:
"Editors should be cautious in considering whether or not to include in Wikipedia material about living persons that they find only in questionable sources or sources of dubious value; if the material about living persons from such sources is derogatory, they should not use this material or these sources at all in biographies of living persons or [in biographical material about living persons] elsewhere in Wikipedia." [added phrase. See below. -- NYScholar 20:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)]
["Elsewhere in Wikipedia" is contingent on the previous part of the sentence; "this material" refers back to the previous phrase: "material about living persons"; that (material about living persons) is what WP:BLP#Sources concerns: read the previous sentences and the following sentences in the policy.] Thanks. -- NYScholar 20:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[This proposal relates to a previous section of discussion headed #"Material about living persons available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers". Editing wars have related to the passage in WP:BLP#Reliable sources beginning with that phrase and also including a phrase "including as an external link"; my proposed sentence attempts to resolve confusions already discussed at length by many editors (not just two to four editors). -- NYScholar 20:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)The proposed sentence also removes the very problematic "either as sources or via external links (see above)." and, as I say above, I recommend that the "see above" which links to WP:BLP#External links appear lower down in the later section on "websites" (already quoted: just see the policy WP:BLP#Sources. -- NYScholar 20:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[Comments reposted from above]
I have no objection at all with people trying to improve the language that I suggest. I still think that the phrase ""either as sources or via external links (see above)." is problematic and misplaced in WP:BLP#Sources. As I say above, I still recommend that the "see above" which links to WP:BLP#External links appear lower down in the later section on "websites" (already quoted: just see the policy WP:BLP#Sources. -- NYScholar 20:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Once again (sigh): I have not "been arguing" what Wikidemo states that I have "been arguing"; my comments repeatedly state that he is misinterpreting what my sentence states and what I intend to state in it. -- NYScholar 20:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"elsewhere in Wikipedia" is referring back to "material about living persons" and using sources for "material about living persons" that are "questionable" (not reliable and/or not verifiable) or using sources that are "of dubious value"; WP:BLP already states that one cannot do that anywhere in Wikipedia in the lead of the policy statement. I have also (earlier) stated that I think it is better to state a policy in positive terms (what one can do) not in negative terms (what one cannot do); but in that this part of the policy statement focuses on what not to do (albeit in passive voice), I have adapted to that fact. I would prefer that a positive statement not a negative statement appear in WP:BLP#Reliable sources. But, given the negative statement, I have tried to work with it. -- NYScholar 20:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I added a phrase "biographical material about living persons" (which is what I have intended all along and the referent for "material about living persons" throughout WP:BLP: scroll up to beginning of the policy page. -- NYScholar 20:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"Editors should be cautious in exercise caution in when considering whether or not to include in Wikipedia material about living persons that they find only in questionable sources or in sources of dubious value; if the material about living persons from such sources is derogatory, they editors should not use this material it or these sources at all in biographies of living persons or in biographical material about living persons elsewhere in Wikipedia."
--
NYScholar 20:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[Revised further:]
"Editors should be cautious in exercise caution when considering whether or not to include in Wikipedia material about living persons that they find in questionable sources or in sources of dubious value, especially if it is derogatory. They should use If editors do use derogatory biographical material about living persons that is derogatory,in Wikipedia only if they can must document it only with
reliable, verifiable, notable sources. in compliance with all
Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, including the rest of this policy."
--
NYScholar 20:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC) [added "including the rest of this policy" (which deals with websites and external links to them, etc.). --
NYScholar 20:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
[Added strikeout and incorporated suggestions from others. --
NYScholar 08:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
[See also: WP:BLP#Well known public figures, which has some important information pertaining to points of view about them. -- NYScholar 20:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)]
This is a discussion page; please do not stifle discussion. All participants are equal in Wikipedia. Please keep that in mind. Thank you. -- NYScholar 20:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please understand: I welcome your (everyone's) comments; I just don't welcome nastiness (from anyone). I appreciate any constructive discussion. Thanks. -- NYScholar 21:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
My concerns about the wording relate to readers of it who are inexperienced or new Wikipedia editors or other users (including the subjects of biographies of living persons--the living persons who may be encountering "material about living persons" pertaining to themselves in Wikipedia). For all such users, links to policies and guidelines can be helpful. That is my thinking. -- NYScholar 21:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
NYScholar: This sounds a bit like a monologue. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Jossi: Did you consult the
dialogue in the archive page (15) linked above as an example of my concerns? That entire matter concerning a
WP:BLP and "contentious" and disputed "material about a living person" in Wikipedia articles and talk space and editing histories may still need administrative assistance. There is still an active link to the article being disputed in another user's (Ovid Plastering)'s [Actually, it's in the anon IP user's talk page, where the other user placed it] talk page (Wikipedia space) and in editing histories. I would appreciate your and other administrators' helping with that situation if you can. Resolving it appears to me to be not a editorial matter but an administrative matter. (I had posted a request on your talk page about problems re: this
WP:BLP project page but got no response a couple of days ago.) Thanks. --
NYScholar 23:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC) [corr. as updated. --
NYScholar 09:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
I have posted about Murray Waas to the WP:BLP/N so that seasoned administrators (I hope) can consider it. I myself do not have time to deal with it any further. -- NYScholar 00:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
[DGG: could you move this comment above this section to the section w/ the proposal version that you are responding to? Thanks. -- NYScholar 08:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
"Editors should exercise caution when considering whether or not to include in Wikipedia material about living persons that they find in questionable sources or in sources of dubious value, especially if it is derogatory. If editors do use derogatory biographical material about living persons in Wikipedia, they must document it with reliable, verifiable, notable sources." -- NYScholar 08:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC) [Sorry forgot link; added it. -- NYScholar 08:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
Whew. I just read all the drama which had occurred on this talk page since I last visited it. I apologize if my lack of comment delayed closure on this subject: I dropped by after Wikidemo had changed the wording to include "sources of dubious value" and closed the conversation, and thought that the situation was resolved. My bad.
For the record: I don't object strongly to the current wording of the sentence (that is: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all in biographies of living people, either as sources or via external links ( see above).) I still think that the distinction NYScholar is drawing between "questionable sources" (regarding verifiability) and "sources of dubious value" (regarding notability) is not one that will be immediately clear to readers, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to make a fuss.
Also, for the record, I don't think that the proposed change to the active voice improves the sentence. One advantage of the active voice over the passive is that the passive often lends itself to circumlocution and imprecision; however, the phrase "...should exercise caution when considering whether or not to include" is far more circumlocutive than the current phrasing. That said, the second sentence NYScholar proposes (If editors do use derogatory biographical material about living persons in Wikipedia, they must document it with reliable, verifiable, notable sources.) may be a useful addition and/or clarification to the policy. That said, the active voice in that sentence suggests that the responsibility for finding sources belongs solely to the editor who adds information. It's true that the onus for providing sources is on the editor who adds information, but there's also a sense in which it is the responsibility of any editor who works on a biographical article to ensure that all derogatory information is well sourced. Because of that element of shared responsibility, I wonder whether the passive voice would be more appropriate as well. That would result in the following:
Would this be a compromise acceptable to NYScholar and other editors? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
[Additional clarification/explanation: There is a difference between entirely "unsourced" material and "poorly sourced" material. This section of WP:BLP ( WP:BLP#Sources) addresses [both "unsourced" and?] "poorly sourced" "derogatory" "material about living persons" (the nature and quality of the sources provided to document the material [statements]), which is (was) the subject of the paragraph in question in WP:BLP#Reliable sources (see editing history). The sentence in the "compromise" proposed by Josiah Rowe emphasizes the necessity for editors to provide what elsewhere--see WP:V--Wikipedia policy calls "impeccable" sources: these are (in Wikipedia terminology) "reliable, verifiable, notable sources" [restrictive commas intended]. (See WP:V, WP:Reliable sources, and Wikipedia:Notability for reference; further explanation in my "Note" archived below.) I tend to prefer the more academic phrase: "Editors must document ... with sources...." to "material that is poorly sourced" (another passive construction); "sourced" and "poorly sourced" are odd constructions that one finds throughout Wikipedia. "To document" statements with sources is an action. -- NYScholar 23:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)]
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
[Please see Archive 11. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[Please see Archive 12. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in Archive 13. Thank you. -- NYScholar 21:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[These three sections are in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is also in Archive 14. Thank you. Repeated here due to its being an administrative notice. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section is in Archive 14. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]
[This section and related subsections are in Archive 14 [and 15]. Thank you. -- NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)] [Updating archiving. --15:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)]
I added some bold font in the policy page, thinking that I had seen it in earlier versions and that it had been inadvertently omitted in people's revisions. But, having checked the editing history over parts of July/August, I don't find it in earlier versions; e.g., 15059912. It apears that heavy editing and some edit warring perhaps was going on in the period of July to August 2007 (and post-August 12). Nevertheless, I think the bold print is helpful (given the bold print in the next paragraph and earlier). I think it is a typographical improvement. I hope that no one objects to my adding it. -- NYScholar 00:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
What about italics instead of bold print (when the time comes)? -- NYScholar 04:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC) I changed the bold that is inconsistent with Wikipedia Style Manual [to] italics. -- NYScholar 05:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC) [tc sorry. -- NYScholar 05:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)]
"please alert us on the BLP noticeboard." Who could this "us" be. Can't be the community because it talks about editors who would be part of the community alerting "us". Can't be the foundation because BLP notice board is not an accepted way of contacting the foundation. So who is it? Geni 18:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I have a question regarding acceptable sources when writing an article about a currently living scientist/scholar. Is it appropriate to cite the CV of such a person (which is often available at that person's website) as a source for some biographical data? Thanks, Nsk92 15:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to add a 4.7, Privacy of sexual preferences, incorporating some of the language of the category rules, something along the lines of (abbreviated suggestion further down, in bold):
“ | Information regarding sexual preference of the subject or the subject's associates should not be included unless the sexual preference is relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources. (Example, the sexual preference of Rosie O'Donnell is relevant to her article because she is an outspoken gay rights advocate whose sexuality is moreover self-professed.) Articles should not contain information on the sexual preferences of a public individual who has not self-professed per reliable sources and on whose notability sexual preference has no bearing. (Example, sexual preference has no bearing on musicianship and is immaterial to an article on a musician.) Sexual behavior may be notable and reported without speculation about preference. (Example, it may be reported that a pop star has been convicted of sexual activity with a minor, but that pop star may not be labeled a "pedophile".) There may be occasions when the sexual preferences of the subject's associates are relevant to the notability of a subject. (Example, an advocate who was inspired to advocacy by the experiences of a gay sibling.) In most instances, the sexual preferences of a subject's associates will be immaterial and not merit inclusion even if self-professed. | ” |
This question is inspired by recent conversations at the BLP noticeboard--should Clay Aiken be identified as gay? Should Tim LaHaye's son be identified as gay? As Steve Dufour points out, this is an issue frequently reported at that noticeboard. The language I've used may be problematic, though, because sometimes sexual preference may not be self-professed, yet still unquestioned. Matthew Shepard's sexual preference is highly relevant to his notability. If Mathew's mother were to spearhead a foundation in his honor, mention of her son's sexual preference would certainly be relevant, if not self-identified. I am very open to input on the suggested change and the wording. :) -- Moonriddengirl 15:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Way to long to be included so no. Geni 18:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
We should consider a person's sexual preference like the person's address. Wikipedia should generally not write about it, except when it has specific notability related to the person. A person's address has specific notability when having famous neighbours, for example. User:Krator ( t c) 21:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Aiming for brevity and clarity, building on above discussion, 4.7 or some other number, Privacy of sexual preferences, something along the lines of
“ | Sexual preference should not be asserted unless self-professed in a reliable, published source. Information related to sexual behavior or controversy regarding sexual preference may be notable and, if reported in a reliable published source, can be included without speculation about preference. Inclusion must not give such material undue weight.(It may be noted that a pop star has been convicted of sexual activity with a minor, but that pop star may not be labeled a "pedophile".) | ” |
I'm sure that's still too long. I'm not always good at writing brief. :) -- Moonriddengirl 21:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
A restateing of what is already on the page. There is simply no point in adding it unless you are trying to make the page so long no one will read it. Geni 03:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This is growing a bit complicated. :) In an effort to determine if pursuing policy clarification is beneficial, I'm going to try to figure out how much support there is for such a change. In terms of incorporating a policy, we seem to have three completely against ( User:Geni, User:Ned Scott), & Vassyana. There are six who seem to believe some kind of guideline is appropriate ( User:Maria202, User:Jmh123, User:Jossi, User:Krator, User:Dicklyon, and me. There's two undecided or unconvinced: User:Wikidemo and User:Will Beback. There's one neutral User:LessHeard vanU. There are two on whose positions on including specific reference I'm unclear: User:BCST2001 and User:Aquillion. Obviously, I do believe that inclusion of some specific guideline is relevant. I think the discussion that's been taking place here is evidence in itself that policy is not easily interpreted. (Updated at 17:38 on September 10)-- Moonriddengirl 16:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
My view is that the language proposed reflects current practice and so it may not be necessary to include it in the policy. The need for it could be established by reviewing actual instances in which editors were unable to agree on whether to make a declaration about the sexual orientation of a subject. If we decide we need to make a policy addition I'd like to see it expanded to include religion, a topic that generates at least as much controversy as sexual orientation, and which likewise depends ultimately on self-identification by the subject. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Is unwarranted speculation and identification of people's sexual preference a significant problem here on Wikipedia? To avoid rule creep I would hold the line on proposals to add things in BLP that are not real, widespread issues that existing policy is inadequate to handle. Wikidemo 22:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Will Beback, the line you quote does not establish the standard for notability; rather, it simply presumes and refers to that standard. This is the whole problem. People in fact ignore what the standard of notability is, and proceed directly to the question of whether it has been noted in the media. Whether something appears in the media and whether it is notable in terms of Wikipedia and WP:BLP are two different questions. Notability has to mean, according to WP:BLP, notability in relation to the subject of the entry. Where the material is contentious, controversial, or insensitive, the notability criterion becomes crucial. If the material does not directly concern the reasons for the notability of the subject, and the material is contentious, controversial, or insensitive, it should be excluded. That is why there are two different examples given: one concerns a politician and one concerns a messy divorce. In the case of a politician, the reasons for their notability (running for public office) mean that sexual scandal may indeed need to be included in the article. In the case of many (indeed most) other biographical entries, details of messy divorcees, sexual scandals, or speculation or innuendo about sexual orientation are simply not notable, may often be contentious or insensitive, and thus must, most of the time, be excluded. This is what editors fail to understand or enforce, but policy on the matter is in fact quite clear. BCST2001 01:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
This seems like instructions creep to me as well. Including or excluding sexual preference doesn't seem like an issue. If the information is private, without proper sources, and isn't relevant, then it's unlikely that we'll desire to include it. If someone comes along and tries to use this information as an attack or as vandalism, we can remove it simply for being an attack. -- Ned Scott 04:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Will Beback, the most relevant parts of WP:BLP are the following (I have placed some of the most important parts in bold type for your benefit):
Please note especially the line requiring "a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability." This is specifically state that contentious material must be clearly demonstrated to be relevant to the person's notability, that is, it cannot simply be incidental to that notability. Without that clear demonstration it must be excluded. Thus, as I have stated, in most cases the sexuality of a person is not relevant to their notability (politicians being a notable exception to this). But this one line should not be looked at in isolation either. The entirety of the section I have cited must be considered as a whole, as well as the entire rationale for WP:BLP. It is the precise goal of WP:BLP as a whole to make possible this kind of exclusion. BCST2001 01:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's look at the example of Larry Craig. He is notable for being a U.S. Senator. He was arrested and pleaded guilty to disturbing the peace. The media speculated that he had attempted to solicit gay sex. He made an announcement that included the statement, "I'm not gay". He has complained about being harassed by the media over the allegations, and I believe he's asked for his privacy. The entire issue is contentious. Under your interpretation of BLP, if I understand correctly, we would not be able to include even Craig's own statements denying the rumors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Aquillion, you are completely correct in your argument that the only way to know what belongs and what does not is by examining each case. In other words, WP:BLP does not eliminate the need for judgment. I completely agree with you, and I don't believe I have argued anything other than that. But even so, WP:BLP gives very important guidance about how to make those judgments, and the two examples are a very important part of that guidance. You are correct that it is feasible that there will be some case where the details of a messy divorce are relevant to a biographical entry about a singer. But on the other hand, this possibility should not diminish awareness of what, in general, the difference between a politician and a singer is: a politician is an figure seeking our approval to control our government. That is the basis on which the community judges, for better or worse, that sexual and other personal morality may be relevant to their being a politician. This argument does not in general hold for singers, and sexual morality is not in general relevant to their notability, even if there are many people who are interested in the sexuality or sexual morality of some particular singer. I would put it like this: in cases where a politician is caught in a sexual scandal, it is crucially important that Wikipedia get its coverage right; in cases where the sexuality of some pop singer is raised as though it is notable, it is crucially important not to presume that the material is notable, nor to find this or that pretext to justify including material which is really only of prurient or other tabloid-type (that is, non-encyclopaedic) interest. But, again, none of that is to deny that examination of the particular case and the use of judgment is not also crucial. The form this takes in WP:BLP cases is that a consensus of community opinion must be found to include contentious material before it can be included, and the burden of proof to establish notablity lies with the editor wishing to include or restore material. And notability must be established in relation to the notability of the subject. BCST2001 08:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I am reading all he above debate and cannot make heads or tails from it. If there is material related to sexual orientation in a BLP that is either self-declared, or described in verifiable sources and notable, what would exempt us from describing it in an article? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
If you look back at what has been written, I don't think you will find any statement that says "we can only print a statement by a public figure about his or her sexuality if it is preceded by an arrest." You should really stop attributing positions to people that they have clearly not expressed. You do not understand correctly, and it does seem you are determined not to understand. BCST2001 00:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Will Beback, you are asking for an iron law where none is possible. As has been mentioned, judgment is necessary, but WP:BLP provides very important guidance about how to make that judgment. Every situation is different. For example, when somebody issues a public statement declaring that they are homosexual, that is very different from a frustrated objection and denial given in the course of an interview where there is no actual sourced information about the sexuality of the person. In the latter case, insisting on including this material is furthering the rumour, perpetuating innuendo, and doing harm. If you cannot grasp the difference, then that is your opinion. I think you are wrong, but the point is that it is neither your judgment nor mine that matters, but the judgment of the Wikipedia community. If they decide something can be included according to policy, then it can be included. But the burden of proof in WP:BLP cases lies with those wishing to include, and among the things they have to "clearly demonstrate" is the relevance of the material to the notability of the subject. And where there is contention and controversy about whether to include or exclude something, policy dictates editing conservatively, responsibly, and sensitively. That is, where there is no consensus, material such as this should be excluded. I don't think there is any point in my explaining this further. What seems perfectly clear and sensible to me is apparently obscure to you—I'm unsure why that is, but I do believe you need to reflect further on the nature of this policy. BCST2001 01:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is no consensus on the subject, as attested by this discussion or by wording on the policy page resulting from discussion, there is no rule. In this case, there is such wording, and I quote: When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. Therefore if a version is these three things, it is perfectly acceptable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
In fact I quoted policy continuously. I am unclear where it is you disagree with me. BCST2001 06:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
(comment/question a specific article, Glenn Greenwald) Given the discussion above (on the sexual preference provision), I was wondering about the specific case of Glenn Greenwald's article. He self-identifies as gay, but it is not pertinent to why he is notable, so I'm inclined to take it out. On the other hand, he is in the LGBT cat., and rightly so, and I don't like the idea of including (someone or something) in a category without something in the article to back it up. So, should it be included now? Is there a different way to do it? And, does the change mentioned above affect this situation? Any thoughts? R. Baley 22:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I recently discussed with another editor the merits of including salary information. (1) There is a tradition in society that regards pay levels or salary as private information. But that isn't an absolute. In many cases, such as soldiers, civil servants, politicians, bureaucrats, and executives of both corporations and non-profits, the base salaries are available through primary sources. In a very few cases, pay information is available through secondary sources (or even promoted by PR agents); most of those involve performers, sportsmen, CEOs, and a few other high profile categories. PR folks are often eager to release pay information about their stars, thouogh the info may not always be reliable. I see three basic distinctions and their likely disposition: salary info with no sources (delete); jobs for which salaries are available through primary sources only (annual reports, government pay scales, etc.) (delete); high profile jobs: 'commissions' movie roles, prominent artworks, sports figures, CEOs, whose figures are reported in secondary sources (keep). Is that sufficiently obvious in the existing policy or should we add a line about how to handle pay? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Please see top of page for indication of what has been archived. Thanks. -- NYScholar 15:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been given the understand that this is a policy page. As such it is something that should be read and and followed (or filled with the bunch of one off cases that make it a great weapon for rule laywers but useless for getting things done opinion appears to be devided). However neither of these are helped by adding about a kilobyte of quote. If you want people to read and apply the document it needs to be kept as sort as posible. Adding quotes does not facilitate this. Geni 15:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, during the development of BLP, we took into considerations the many comments of Jimbo on the subject. The additions of these comments have been in this page for a long time and I do not see any compelling reasons not to continue having these, in particular as BLP keeps being mentioned in the press, is widely applied, and it is used as the basis for many WP:OTRS interventions. I would argue that any dilution of this policy will require a substantial discussion and agreement. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
... without consensus will be challenged. This is an official policy of Wikipedia, and the current wording is the result of previous discussions. If you want to challenge any portion, wording, or formulation of the policy, discuss first, out of respect for standing consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:BLP refers to [removing on sight] [poorly-documented or undocumented: "poorly sourced or unsourced"] "contentious" "material about living persons" whether or not it is "positive", "negative", or "just questionable"; that is explicit and not confined to the "scandalous, damaging, and novel". Those kinds of statements invent criteria in WP:BLP that are not the policy.
After participating in discussions on this talk page over the past month or so, I have begun to wonder whether or not there are particular agenda that others have in discussing WP:BLP (and WP:EL, in the archived discussions). Some statements made really do not seem in keeping with WP:BLP as it has existed since its inception (longer than a half-year). I have been trying to follow WP:BLP in its various states for the time that I have been here (since it was a policy that one could refer to); in my case, for over two years. (I did not realize that it was being heavily edited until just this past month, because I did not look at its editing history before August.) I have not until this summer encountered such comments about the policy. I do not understand the rationale of those who make them. It seems to me that some may be attempting to open up Wikipedia articles about living persons to material that has previously been prohibited from Wikipedia: the passage under discussion is a very crucial passage. These new distinctions being made seem to be either intentional or unintentional attempts to weaken it (water it down). The purpose if there is one is unclear to me. (These comments are not in any way intended to be "uncivil": they are observations after seeing patterns in the comments being made particularly over the past month and especially these past few days.) There is a difference between "censorship" (in my view an absurd claim) and proper judgment and avoidance of Wikipedia:Libel of living persons.
As a Wikipedia editor (who is also a living person), perhaps editors should ask themselves the following hypothetical question: "(If I were deemed notable enough to warrant an article about me in Wikipedia) Would I want to permit such ["poorly sourced or unsourced"] "contentious material" being included about me (anywhere) in Wikipedia?"
There are such things as conventions of civil discourse (in academic discourse; in scholarship; in respectable journalism [in Wikipedia, generally not Blogs), other writing published in print encyclopedia), as well as legal conventions ("laws") pertaining to content published about living persons. I think that as editors of an online encyclopedia which gets distributed and re-distributed through its displaying GFDL, Wikipedia editors have a central responsibility in adhering to Wikipedia's clearly-established standards in WP:BLP. This discussion is not a substitute for the policy and, as I have said now many times, changing the policy is not a matter for its talk page; there is a clear-cut defined Wikipedia policy and procedure for making changes to policies. Policy changes occur according to such procedures; not in edit warring on talk pages of the policies. These distinctions that I see people coming up with here are policy changes not merely changes in wording of policy. --- NYScholar 22:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[added clarifications in brackets; I think people can read the policy to see what it says. -- NYScholar 22:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)][ditto. -- NYScholar 22:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)]
It particularly troubles me that some of the people making what seem to be forays into
WP:BLP are editors heavily involved in creating and editing biographies of living persons (the project). That these editors are questioning and complaining about long-standing
WP:BLP policy definitions really troubles me, because, as they are doing so, so they are may also be contributing to and editing biographies of living persons as they might prefer the policies to allow them to do. [I don't know.] I wonder how many recent biographies of living persons violate some of the standards of
WP:BLP if they are being edited according to practices that are not in keeping with current
WP:BLP? (I don't know but I do wonder.) I do know that there is a big problem in biographies of living persons and in material about living persons in Wikipedia that other editors are attempting to deal with, and that the problem seems to be extensive; I do not know if it is pervasive. Perhaps someone can point to the project page where these problematic biographies of living persons and articles with such questionable material are listed. ??? --
NYScholar 22:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[strike out and clarification; I really don't know; from the recent remarks by a number of editors, I really wonder.... --
NYScholar 22:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)]
I still think that the current wording with a small change, captures the spirit of the policy, as follows:
The "whether negative, positive, or just questionable" was added after a long discussion, and ot addresses the fact that we are not only referring to negative material, but to positive or questionable material as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I just deleted an addition that someone added w/o prior discussion; it is not a stylistic change: The content added is: "In particular, speculation about the health or death of a living person is not to be included in articles. A biography of a living person should not be changed to characterize them as dead or dying, unless supported by reliable sources with citations to allow verification."
Such content needs discussion. Adding it does not follow the warning at the top of the project page. -- NYScholar 23:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict)[I will also state that I do not think such a deletion as this one should be subject to WP:3RR because WP:BLP is a policy page and has special requirements relating to editing it. When people change the policy page in a manner that violates the warning at the top of the page, deletions of those changes are in keeping with these requirements. This page may need protection against editing if such content changes continue. -- NYScholar 23:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
It is the responsibility of the editor who wants to add the content to come to this talk page to discuss it (first). It is clearly something that requires prior discussion and the development of consensus. (The content added appears unnecessary to me because it involves "poorly sourced or unsourced" "material about a living person" [e.g., in the phrase "unless supported by reliable sources with citations to allow verification"], which is already covered in the policy.) -- NYScholar 23:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
[Altered heading to be clearer what this is about: --
NYScholar 01:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)]
==="all pages in Wikipedia"===
Jossi: I thought "in Wikipedia" was clear; see above. "all pages in Wikipedia" seems less clear to me that "in Wikipedia" (period). Some parts of Wikipedia are not "pages" from some people's perspective. "In Wikipedia" relates to all of the encyclopedia space. --
NYScholar 23:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC) rethought. --
NYScholar 00:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I just attempted to improve on the original meaning. As it seems that you object, I have restored to the original formulation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
It would be wise to read the discussion above before jumping in, NYScholar. It is more efficient that way, you know? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
This is getting very confusing: which is the "original formulation"? What date are you reverting that back to? I really agree with the gist of what I think you were doing, I just don't think the phrase accomplished it. What is incorrect (not in keeping with the WP:BLP) in the phrase "from Wikipedia?" Please explain. Thanks. -- NYScholar 01:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
(BTW: I read the discussion up to this point. I just hadn't commented on some of it. -- NYScholar 01:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC))
Query (not satisfied with previous discussion re: this question): How is "Wikipedia articles, [2] talk pages, user pages, and project space" not "Wikipedia"? There was discussion earlier about other material that is not the encyclopedia that one means by Wikipedia; perhaps one needs to link to Wikipedia in "from Wikipedia?" ?? -- NYScholar 02:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)