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I reverted this edit because I'd like to think it over. What do others think? What's so special about an external link that makes it okay when the same source cited from a self-published printed book or a self-published vanity magazine, leaflet or pamphlet isn't? Can it be not okay for me to publish an unverified and potentially damaging statement via a paper reference and yet okay for me to publish it a a link to a website? -- Tony Sidaway 08:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tony and Seraphimblade. Adding links to sites that contain unsourced or poorly sourced negative speculation about people is unacceptable. If the source insn't good enough to be included in the article as a reference for a statement about the controversial material, it should not be included as an external link either. WjB scribe 22:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to add this after-the-fact. I actually added it to the wrong page. After some editing I'm putting it back here where it should be.
I am reverting in part a change made in late June that banned from BLP all eternal links to self-published material (other than by the subject of the article), calling them the same as sources. My reasons:
I certainly understand, appreciate, and approve the intent behind adding the language. If we talked about it nearly all of us would agree in specific cases when a self-published source site not be linked. The problem comes when we generalize it and speak in the hypothetical. I think what we need is is already there in the policy and it's simply a matter of enforcing it. But if we do have to say when eternal links should not be allowed, can we please either add that to the WP:EL section or at a minimum create a separate sentence or subsection that deals with external links for what they are instead of lumping them in with reference sources and creates a broad ban? Let's get to the heart of things and ban what we mean to ban. Thx. Wikidemo 10:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The point of the clause is simply this: that if there are potentially damaging and unverifable statements about a living person on an external website, we will not use it as an external link. This follows directly from our principles of Verifiability and Neutral point of view. Just because we don't mention some unsubstantiated and damaging rumor about a person in the article, doesn't give us an "out" to knowingly link to a site that does. -- Tony Sidaway 21:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I was just alerted in the talk page of Wikipedia:External links that the information about what cannot be "linked" in Wikipedia articles pertaining to living persons was deleted from WP:BLP#Reliable sources. I have added a sentence* that appears to be necessary as people seem to be deleting the reference to "including as an external link" in order to get around WP:V#Sources as previously intended by this policy page. That damages Wikipedia's credibility as a source itself. One needs to be able to rely upon anything linked in Wikipedia as a source that is both "reliable" and "verifiable" and that meets the criteria set forth in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV in the way that it is being presented. It appears that people who want to include sites that Wikipedia does not consider reliable and verifiable are taking out the language to permit linking to them. That does not seem appropriate or wise or even reasonable to me. -- NYScholar 01:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Unreliable and unverifiable sources should not be linked anywhere in Wikipedia space as sources of information about living persons, including in "External links" sections of articles.
-- NYScholar 01:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I approve of the language proposed by user:2005 with the proviso that reasonableness is always required in the application. A single incidental, stray, or minor derogatory comment does not invalidate a large site that is otherwise neutral or positive and otherwise worthy of an external link. But it is otherwise okay that this proposal preserves the asymmetry of the rest of BLP in being more selective with respect to negative than positive information about living poeple. That's a wise place where we compromise NPOV in specific cases to keep the NPOV of the article as a whole, avoid defamation, edit wars, POV-pushing, etc. We're having a consensus discussion here so until and unless there is a consensus to add something language about external links should stay out. Wikidemo 01:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I lost everything I wrote due to "edit conflict"; I suggest that people here recognize that a disagreement in WP:EL's talk page has sent people over here to change the policy statements in WP:BLP#Reliable sources to be able to include in "External links" sections (or any "external link") material that is not in keeping with WP:V#Sources, especially as that pertains to WP:BLP. Please consult the other discussion. Once I pointed out that there was a phrase "including as an external link" in this section of WP:BLP#Reliable sources, they seem to have congregated here to delete the phrase and to water down the policy. The sentence that I added makes perfect sense in light of this "red herring" effort to change the policy as WP:EL refers back to it. WP:BLP is not something that should permit linking to material that is unreliable and unverifiable. It is a breach of WP:V#Sources to do so, whether the "external link" is in "External links" sections or elsewhere; such links are not supposed to be in any space in Wikipedia articles pertaining to living persons: user space, talk space, article space, you name it; it's a violation of core policies: WP:V and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, which are both referred to (linked to) in WP:BLP. Changing policy should not be so arbitrary. -- NYScholar 01:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I have protected the page. Policy is not made by edit war. Please try to come to some resolution amongst yourselves. Perhaps you should try to get input from other forums (e.g. Village Pump, etc.) if you are having trouble resolving this amongst the current participants. Dragons flight 05:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
You beat me to it by seconds Dragons flight. Viridae Talk 12:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The last stable version of the paragraph regarding self-published works reads (before the edit war beginning 23 June, 2007, and without formatting or links):
user:2005 proposes adding the following sentence:
User:SlimVirgin proposes a different addition:
I think most people are amenable to adding language clarifying the role of external links to self-published material. But what should that be? Thoughts? Wikidemo 06:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Conceivably, there are self-published sites written by recognizable experts on the subject of living person who are recognizable experts on that subject (the living person) by dint of third-party publications. If that site is not published by the subject, it would not be linked in "External links" section of an article that is a biographical article about the person. But it might be linked in a notes citation as a reliable and verifiable source of information because the author of the site is a recognized expert on the subject. That aspect of WP:V applies here too. One needs to consult all of WP:V#Sources to be able to distinguish between what is considered "reliable and verifiable" as a self-published source (and external link) in Wikipedia. But one also needs to link to external links that do not violate WP:BLP, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (in their presentation as such) and that are in keeping also with WP:POV. I don't think it's that difficult to do that. One exerts "editorial discretion" while still following the policies. It's responsible editing practice to do so. -- NYScholar 19:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I have to agree with WilyD. The proposed "SlimVirgin phrasing" would ban us from ever linking to the site of a political party, even when we are talking about important members of that political party, such as its founder, its current leader, previous leaders, and so forth. That's silly. It needs to be rephrased. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 21:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
We seem to be drifting. Can we please continue seeing if there is consensus for what language if any to add, and keep comments focused on that at least in this section so we stay on topic and everyone who wants can be heard?
So far we have:
I'll suggest my own.
-- Wikidemo 21:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Another:
Inserting a heading again to separate consensus discussion from digression. Save for my one intervening comment we have 34 edits in a row from a single editor, 15,000+ bytes of new content. Is there such a thing as a brevity request? Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines goes over things like being concise, staying on topic, clear layouts, etc. I'm afraid everyone will tune out if they haven't already. There is no consensus yet for adding anything beyond the "original version" above and I'm afraid that if we don't find one in the next day people will keep adding stuff anyway over objections, and then we're back to an edit war. Wikidemo 21:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps my request to stay on topic in the above section was not clear enough. I asked what language if any we should add to the version above marked "original." Consensus means we add something. No consensus for new language means we revert to the original version once we are out of edit lock. If you're going to discuss the language in the above section please address the question presented, and keep comments brief and to the point. For lengthy digressions and other matters would you kindly discuss in a different section -- like this one? I've added the heading above to help with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo ( talk • contribs) 02:48, August 14, 2007 (UTC)
Re: the references to "obscure newspapers" in WP:BLP and elsewhere in Wikipedia: I think the term at least needs a clear definition, discussion about what the phrase denotes (not connotes), and whether or not it belongs in WP:BLP#Reliable sources. I am questioning its validity in the statement. Example in point: Jewish Telegraphic Agency newspapers, such as The Jerusalem Post, publications cited (sometimes specifically, sometimes not) by the Tulsa Jewish Review(and other U.S. Jewish community newspapers, journals, and magazines), which one editor termed an "obscure" source, I think incorrectly; the editor did not want the information which was properly (reliably and verifiably) sourced included in an article about Lewis Libby, to which WP:BLP#Well known public figures applies, and termed the source "obscure". [An arbitration resolved the contended matter in favor of citing the source as reliable and verifiable: see Talk:Lewis Libby; WP:POV also applies to WP:BLP#Well known public figures. In my view, The Jerusalem Post is a notable newspaper, it has an article about it in Wikipedia (because it is notable; not "obscure"), as does Jewish Telegraphic Agency, and it is thus not "obscure"; "obscure", as I state above, is a subjective and value-judgment-laden term and, I believe, can lead to contention. One way that editors will have to exclude otherwise-includable points of view on a subject who happens to be a living person (when the information is neither potentially libelous or negative, just factual information) is to claim that the source is an "obscure newspaper." -- NYScholar 20:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC) [expanded somewhat. -- NYScholar 20:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)]
There is already discussion in this talk page, at Talk:NNDB, and in the WP:BLP/N about the listing of the NNDB in "External links" section of Wikipedia. There is confusion about that too due to the "guideline" status of WP:EL and how it is supposed to be consistent with WP:V. This assumption that a "source" of "content" in Wikipedia is immune from WP:V if it is placed in the "External links" section leads to problems. Either an "External link" is in keeping with core policies in Wikipedia (all of them) or it is not. Either NNDB is or it isn't; either "self-published" "unofficial" or "non-official" fansites are or they are not. Editors need to know what to do with these kinds of sources of information. (And they are "sources of information"; if they were not sources of information, they would not be linked in the Wikipedia articles at all, even in "External links". I have asked: "for what purpose" are these "external links" being included in Wikipedia articles (in any section)? If the purpose is to direct readers to them as a source of information about a living person, then WP:BLP pertains. -- NYScholar 21:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The comments [in above sections] do not state the language that was in BLP#Reliable sources before the current version; what is quoted above is not SlimVirgin's proposal (the language in there before): the current passage reads:
Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below). Unreliable and unverifiable sources should not be linked anywhere in Wikipedia space as sources of information about living persons, including in "External links" sections of articles.
The previous passage, which included SV's language had a phrase (not a clause) which said "including as an external link"; that was deleted before I noticed the newer version. I added the sentence "Unreliable and unverifiable sources ... articles."
The earlier parts of WP:BLP already address the other issues. There is no need for changing it. The sentence that I added does not rule out linking to political party websites (though not in "External links" sections of articles about living persons--which seems reasonable) in keeping still with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV; in the case of well-known public figures, which includes many still-living actors and other celebrities, politicial candidates, and so on, WP:BLP#Well known public figures and WP:POV are already clear.
Referring to WP:EL as if it were on a par with WP:V is not appropriate. WP:EL are guidelines that refer to core policies WP:V and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and WP:EL also refers to WP:BLP. I don't see any need for further revision. It is clear that official websites of organizations are reliable and verifiable sources of information about them. [They have biases, of course, in favor of the organizations that they describe; they are "first-party sources," not "second party" or "third-party sources"; and all three kinds of sources are defined and discussed in WP:V#Sources.] If the organizations are partisan political organizations, those sites are partisan sites, and the passage currently refers to such websites ("partisan websites"). I believe that "obscure newspapers" is problematic, however, because "obscure" is a highly-subjective value-judgment-laden adjective. What is "obscure" to some people in the world are major media to others. "Partisan" is a clearer descriptive term. Most partisan sites have clearly-defined biases. For related information, see WP:POV, which also links to WP:BLP and protects well-known public figures from libelous statements in Wikipedia even while it states that various points of view, even those negative from the perspective of the living person, are permissible for development in articles about living persons. Sites giving such pejorative potentially libelous information would not be linkable as "external links" in articles about living persons, according to the current language in WP:BLP#Reliable sources, although they might be listed as sources in citations to main body discussion. Such sources would still have to adhere to WP:V#Sources. I don't see difficulties that the earlier comments state. These situations are already covered in WP:V#Sources. As I say above, after thinking about it further, I recalled that my first impression of "obscure" was that it could prove problematic due to its subjectivity and unenforceability. -- NYScholar 03:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with Wikidemo's interpretations of WP:BLP as he has been commenting on Wikipedia talk:External links. I prefer to speak for myself, as I have done above. The only question I have [at the time that I posted this; other questions arose later] about the current wording involves the references to "obscure newspapers" in WP:BLP. I don't agree with Wikidemo's arguments for allowing self-published fansites that are not official sites published by the subjects of articles about living persons or in material about living persons as "external links" in Wikipedia space. Please see the other talk page discussion for that disagreement. I would prefer that other users not restate my comments. Please scroll up for my own statements of my views. Thank you. -- NYScholar 19:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC) [After another user changed the main subheading of "Related discussion" etc., asking for subheadings, I added subheadings for my own comments; I also added the bracketed reference "[at the time that I posted this; other questions arose later]" so that the subheading sec. comment could be followed. My subheadings have been necessitated by the other user's changes to the page after I posted my original comments. Thank you. -- NYScholar 02:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)]
As I and others argue here and there, WP:V is core policy in Wikipedia, and it pertains to everything in it. Sources and external links (which link to (direct readers to) sources of material) must be "verifiable" and adhere to the rest of WP:V. WP:EL is a guideline, not a policy, and parts of it conflict with WP:V as it is currently written. See Wikipedia talk:External links for that discussion. Please avoid focusing on contributors instead of on content. These are content matters. -- NYScholar 19:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. 'Verifiable' in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.
Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. The others include Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three. (Italics added.)
We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space. [Embedded footnote in original is not in this quotation of it; please consult the footnote there.]
("editing conflict")Re: the references to "obscure newspapers" in WP:BLP and elsewhere in Wikipedia: I think the term at least needs a clear definition, discussion about what the phrase denotes (not connotes), and whether or not it belongs in WP:BLP#Reliable sources. I am questioning its validity in the statement. Example in point: Jewish Telegraphic Agency newspapers, such as The Jerusalem Post, publications cited (sometimes specifically, sometimes not) by the Tulsa Jewish Review [1] (and other U.S. Jewish community newspapers, journals, and magazines), which one editor termed an "obscure" source, I think incorrectly; the editor did not want the information which was properly (reliably and verifiably) sourced included in an article about Lewis Libby, to which WP:BLP#Well known public figures applies, and termed the source "obscure". In my view, The Jerusalem Post is a notable newspaper, it has an article about it in Wikipedia (because it is notable; not "obscure"), as does Jewish Telegraphic Agency, and it is thus not "obscure"; "obscure", as I state above, is a subjective and value-judgment-laden term and, I believe, can lead to contention. One way that editors will have to exclude otherwise-includable points of view on a subject who happens to be a living person (when the information is neither potentially libelous or negative, just factual information) is to claim that the source is an "obscure newspaper." [Updated; added link, etc.] -- NYScholar 20:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Re: "Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all" [added the sentence for easier ref. -- NYScholar 22:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)]
I propose that one delete the whole phrase "or in obscure newspapers" from WP:BLP#Reliable sources. [revised on subsequent thought: ...] -- NYScholar 22:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I support the proposal to remove "or obscure newspapers" from the policy. "Obscure" could mean vastly different things to different people, and lends itself far too easily to "I haven't heard of it." As I pointed out above, there are also encylcopedic subjects which are covered only in newspapers which are unfamiliar to most editors, and thus might run the risk of being considered "obscure". — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Support removal. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 18:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Support removal (for reasons cited in discussion below). Noroton 21:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I also question the phrase containing the word "solely"; there is no way for Wikipedia editors to ascertain that information appears "solely" anywhere; that runs up against WP:NOR, and Wikipedia editors are not experts in subjects. No one can ascertain that information appears "solely" anywhere. The database of accessible material on any subject rules that out as a possibility. That part needs re-thinking/re-writing as well. --[Updated.] -- NYScholar 21:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
That said [in the previous sec. of comments], one should not revise a "guideline" so that it is inconsistent and so that it violates Wikipedia's core policies, or policies based on them, like WP:BLP. That is the current problem, as I see it, with WP:EL in its current state. See particularly, WP:EL#Links to be considered item #4: "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." (bold print added)
Lest one lose sight of the original context of this discussion, please scroll up to Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#External links. Thanks. -- NYScholar 00:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Re: "proposals": I would like to see experienced administrators who have been administrators for considerable amounts of time and who have a long track record in understanding the applications of policies like WP:V, WP:BLP, WP:NOR, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view in a "guideline" like WP:EL (see their comments above) and experienced editors who have been editing Wikipedia for at least a year, not only editors who have been here for 6 months, addressing the issues of how to change the language of a policy as crucial as WP:BLP#Reliable sources in Wikipedia. I don't think that users should be strong-armed into changing policy this way. There is already a clearly-established consensus in Wikipedia called "core policies". Furthermore, I object to my words being edited (as they have been), to the changing of the headings after people posted comments in them (after being asked to add subheadings to my own comments, however, I have done that), and to statements being made in my name and to personal comments. Please focus on the content being discussed (the current wording of the policy) and not on contributors. Please see WP:NPA for further guidance. This has gotten out of hand. I object to the first sentence only (so far) in the current wording of WP:BLP#Reliable sources. My reasons are stated above. -- NYScholar 01:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I still think that the language of the first few paragraphs of WP:BLP#Reliable sources would be clearer and easier to read if it were in the active voice (like the next couple of paragraphs in that policy, beginning "Editors ..." . -- NYScholar 22:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Inasmuch as the consensus process seems to have broken down I am being bold and implementing a solution I think addresses everyone's concerns. Here is the language:
The 6/23/07 version:
The new sentence to be incorporated (that was the subject of objections and edit warring):
The integrated version:
As discussed above there has been an edit war for 6+ weeks over adding the new sentence (and other similar ones). There seems to be little disagreement on the goals, just the language. Some consider the new language "obvious" but others oppose it as non-consensus and overly broad to the point where it has unintended consequences of banning some legitimate and noncontroversial external links (e.g. links to recipes, sports and other statistics, band tour schedules, photo galleries, song lyrics, material that does not concern the living person, etc).
Specific changes are:
You can consider this a proposal because if you don't like it you're certainly entitled to revert, discuss, change, etc. But please, choose discussion over edit wars!
-- Wikidemo 22:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I still think that the language of the first few paragraphs of WP:BLP#Reliable sources would be clearer and easier to read if it were in the active voice (like the next couple of paragraphs in that policy, beginning "Editors ..." . -- NYScholar 22:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Reliable sources
Editors must provide reliable and verifiable sources for material about living persons and external links to sources of material pertaining to living persons very carefully. Without reliable and verifiable sources, a biography will violate the No original research and Verifiability policies and could lead to libel claims.
Editors should handle material presented in and/or hyperlinked in partisan sources with caution, and they should not use these sources at all anywhere in Wikipedia space if they are not reliable and verifiable (See WP:V#Sources). Editors should not use material about living persons from such sources at all anywhere in Wikipedia space (including as external links and in External links sections) if it is derogatory or otherwise negative about living persons and could potentially subject Wikipedia to claims of libel and slander. (See WP:BLP#Well known public figures for further guidance pertaining to living persons who are also public figures.)
Editors should never use self-published material from books, zines, websites, and blogs at all anywhere in Wikipedia space as a source of information about a living person unless the material and the sources meet the core policy of WP:V, including WP:V#Sources. Editors should never link to such material or to such self-published sources of material about living persons as an external link or in an "External links" section, unless the material, the source and/or the site are published by the subject of the article ( see below) or otherwise in keeping with WP:V#Sources. All such sources of information about living persons and external links to sources of information about living persons in Wikipedia space must not violate WP:V and other core policies in Wikipedia.
Editors should not repeat gossip about living persons published by tabloids and scandal sheets. They should ask themselves (1) whether or not the source is both reliable and verifiable, in keeping with WP:V#Sources; (2) whether or not the material being presented is being presented as true; and (3) even if it is being presented as true, whether or not such material is both notable and relevant to an Encyclopedia article about the subject. If any of those three instances do not pertain, the material must not appear anywhere in Wikipedia.When less-than-reliable publications print material that their writers suspect is untrue, the writers often employ weasel words or phrases. Editors must be vigilant and scrutinize similarly-ambivalent or ambiguous language in such less-than-reliable publications and exclude the material from Wikipedia if the source uses such rhetorical tactics. If editors detect that the reliability or verifiability of the publication is dubious and that its writer or writers do not appear to believe their own account, Wikipedia should not include such information. To do so would damage the credibility of Wikipedia.
Wikipedia editors should also be careful about perpetuating a feedback loop in which editors have repeated in a Wikipedia article an unsourced and speculative contention from any source (including newspaper and other otherwise reliable and verifiable media publications) and then subsequently cited that same dubious unsourced and speculative contention in a Wikipedia article to support the secondary source's speculative contention as if it were reliably and verifiably sourced when it is not. Editors who suspect that this sort of feedback loop is occurring should be especially resourceful to document other independent reliable and verifiable sources -- outside the loop itself -- for the contentious claim. If editors cannot find such independent reliable and verifiable sources, they must delete the contentious and unsupportable claim on sight from all Wikipedia space where it appears.
[The last part on the "feedback loop" is particularly tricky to write clearly; it may still need further work. -- NYScholar 23:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)]
-- NYScholar 23:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC) [Because language is crucial here, before logging out for an extended period of time, I have tried to correct my own typographical errors and improve emphasis in the above proposed language; it is an example. It is intentionally emphatic and any redundancies are intentional emphases; new editors frequently violate WP:BLP, especially with regard to WP:Attribution and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and the emphases are, in my view, necessary. -- NYScholar 01:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)]
Can we concentrate on the contentious paragraph first, then move on to other paragraphs later? I don't care for that part of the above proposal. It repeats four times in one paragraph that sources have to conform to WP:V, something that is already stated very clearly at the top of the page. In fact, as far as I can tell the paragraph is completely ineffectual in that after each prohibition it lays out, it takes back the prohibition by saying that the material is okay after all if it complies with WP:V -- which it would have to anyway if this paragraph were not there. I think the point of this paragraph is that with WP:V as a background, we want to be extra stringent on sources where living people are involved. If you parse the existing paragraph it bans as sources of info for living people: (i) derogatory material from partisan websites, (ii) derogatory material from obscure newspapers, and (iii) material sourced from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs (unless written or published by the person in question).
The question / dispute / task at hand is to consider whether and how to restrict external links beyond any limits that may already be in place. If we can tackle that one we will have done some good. Wikidemo 01:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
To amend or not to amend? And if to amend, then how?
My 2 centavos is that I like WilyD's proposal (raised above). Add: External links should never be used to circumvent to goals of the Biographies of Living People policy. Where external links are used to include information from self-published or dubious sources that would be inappropriate for a Wikipedia article, they should be removed. This seems to get to the unique problems of WP:EL as they related to WP:BLP, namely people trying to direct a reader to information that is doesn't belong on a WP:BLP page (although it might be okay on another page). Yet, it still leaves enough room for editorial discretion so that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Notmyrealname 17:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikidemo 17:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This seems like a recipe for disaster. At this point BLP is being used to remove information that is in fact in reliable sources. If that continues to be the case, and we adopt a strict BLP external link policy many legitimate links will not be linkable. Furthermore, it will prevent linking to notable criticism that also contains otherwise unproven allegations. This is a bad idea all around. JoshuaZ 15:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The changes that you are proposing are re-writing a core policy in Wikipedia: WP:V, specifically already addressed in WP:V#Questionable sources (the whole thing; as it says there, "(See below.)" and WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper)".
In my view, it is a mistake to make these changes that you are proposing in WP:BLP#Reliable sources: [these particular "emendations"--to amend or not to amend being the question.] As many experienced editors have already pointed out, WP:V pertains to all sources and all external links to sources of information in articles in Wikipedia, including those about living persons and including those not about living persons. The intended purpose is to make Wikipedia reliable, verifiable, and credible as a source of information about anything in it. [In articles not about himself or herself:] The use of self-published blogs at all [your example above] is very restricted in Wikipedia; the writer publishing his or her own blog has to be a recognizable expert on the subject about which he or she is being cited as a source of information [as a result of other non-self-published "third-party" publications]: WP:V#Sources. Why you are trying to re-define what WP:V already says in WP:BLP is really beyond me at this point. If the inconsistencies are in WP:EL, that "guideline" is where the inconsistencies need to be addressed, not here. I see no good coming from this effort thus far. [If this is how you propose to "emend" WP:BLP#Reliable sources, I say don't [amend or emend it]. In my view it was better with the phrase "including as an external link" (which SV had added, [which I thought perfectly clear and not ungrammatical at all], which you and others later and most recently removed, and, after the removal of that phrase, it was better with the sentence that that I had added, which you and others also removed and some others reinserted, but which is now reverted back to your earlier deletion of it.]
As far as how long WP:BLP#Reliable sources has been the subject of editing warring, its "stablility" seems to pre-date June 23, 2007 [ref. in editing summ. to " 6/23/07 version, last stable one before edit war"], if one examines the editing history before that date. This project page has not been "stable" only [on] June [23], if one looks at the history. [It was stable for periods of time both before and after that date.] There has been disagreement here about these matters for more than three months.
I think that WP:BLP should not be rewritten in a manner that is inconsistent with WP:V#Sources. BLP also fall under the rubric of verifiability of the information about living persons whether it is "derogatory" or not; whatever information is in a biography of a living person, like any other article in Wikipedia about any other kind of subject, the sources of the information in the article must be impeccable in terms of their reliability and verifiability, and that includes any external links to which one is linking in the article. All the information in an article must be accurate, reliable, and verifiable. There is no desire in Wikipedia to mislead its readers by linking to self-published unreliable and unverifiable sources of information that are not in keeping with WP:V#Sources, including WP:V#Questionable sources. If an external link links to a dubious source of information, why link to it? To do so is to mislead readers. WP:V is already clear on these points. By having WP:BLP include a link to WP:V, one is saying that it must conform to that core policy. What is unclear about that? It is the guideline WP:EL that is unclear, not WP:BLP. -- NYScholar 08:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC) [Updated in brackets; link added, clarifications. -- NYScholar 08:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)]
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
I reverted this edit because I'd like to think it over. What do others think? What's so special about an external link that makes it okay when the same source cited from a self-published printed book or a self-published vanity magazine, leaflet or pamphlet isn't? Can it be not okay for me to publish an unverified and potentially damaging statement via a paper reference and yet okay for me to publish it a a link to a website? -- Tony Sidaway 08:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tony and Seraphimblade. Adding links to sites that contain unsourced or poorly sourced negative speculation about people is unacceptable. If the source insn't good enough to be included in the article as a reference for a statement about the controversial material, it should not be included as an external link either. WjB scribe 22:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to add this after-the-fact. I actually added it to the wrong page. After some editing I'm putting it back here where it should be.
I am reverting in part a change made in late June that banned from BLP all eternal links to self-published material (other than by the subject of the article), calling them the same as sources. My reasons:
I certainly understand, appreciate, and approve the intent behind adding the language. If we talked about it nearly all of us would agree in specific cases when a self-published source site not be linked. The problem comes when we generalize it and speak in the hypothetical. I think what we need is is already there in the policy and it's simply a matter of enforcing it. But if we do have to say when eternal links should not be allowed, can we please either add that to the WP:EL section or at a minimum create a separate sentence or subsection that deals with external links for what they are instead of lumping them in with reference sources and creates a broad ban? Let's get to the heart of things and ban what we mean to ban. Thx. Wikidemo 10:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The point of the clause is simply this: that if there are potentially damaging and unverifable statements about a living person on an external website, we will not use it as an external link. This follows directly from our principles of Verifiability and Neutral point of view. Just because we don't mention some unsubstantiated and damaging rumor about a person in the article, doesn't give us an "out" to knowingly link to a site that does. -- Tony Sidaway 21:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I was just alerted in the talk page of Wikipedia:External links that the information about what cannot be "linked" in Wikipedia articles pertaining to living persons was deleted from WP:BLP#Reliable sources. I have added a sentence* that appears to be necessary as people seem to be deleting the reference to "including as an external link" in order to get around WP:V#Sources as previously intended by this policy page. That damages Wikipedia's credibility as a source itself. One needs to be able to rely upon anything linked in Wikipedia as a source that is both "reliable" and "verifiable" and that meets the criteria set forth in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV in the way that it is being presented. It appears that people who want to include sites that Wikipedia does not consider reliable and verifiable are taking out the language to permit linking to them. That does not seem appropriate or wise or even reasonable to me. -- NYScholar 01:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Unreliable and unverifiable sources should not be linked anywhere in Wikipedia space as sources of information about living persons, including in "External links" sections of articles.
-- NYScholar 01:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I approve of the language proposed by user:2005 with the proviso that reasonableness is always required in the application. A single incidental, stray, or minor derogatory comment does not invalidate a large site that is otherwise neutral or positive and otherwise worthy of an external link. But it is otherwise okay that this proposal preserves the asymmetry of the rest of BLP in being more selective with respect to negative than positive information about living poeple. That's a wise place where we compromise NPOV in specific cases to keep the NPOV of the article as a whole, avoid defamation, edit wars, POV-pushing, etc. We're having a consensus discussion here so until and unless there is a consensus to add something language about external links should stay out. Wikidemo 01:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I lost everything I wrote due to "edit conflict"; I suggest that people here recognize that a disagreement in WP:EL's talk page has sent people over here to change the policy statements in WP:BLP#Reliable sources to be able to include in "External links" sections (or any "external link") material that is not in keeping with WP:V#Sources, especially as that pertains to WP:BLP. Please consult the other discussion. Once I pointed out that there was a phrase "including as an external link" in this section of WP:BLP#Reliable sources, they seem to have congregated here to delete the phrase and to water down the policy. The sentence that I added makes perfect sense in light of this "red herring" effort to change the policy as WP:EL refers back to it. WP:BLP is not something that should permit linking to material that is unreliable and unverifiable. It is a breach of WP:V#Sources to do so, whether the "external link" is in "External links" sections or elsewhere; such links are not supposed to be in any space in Wikipedia articles pertaining to living persons: user space, talk space, article space, you name it; it's a violation of core policies: WP:V and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, which are both referred to (linked to) in WP:BLP. Changing policy should not be so arbitrary. -- NYScholar 01:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I have protected the page. Policy is not made by edit war. Please try to come to some resolution amongst yourselves. Perhaps you should try to get input from other forums (e.g. Village Pump, etc.) if you are having trouble resolving this amongst the current participants. Dragons flight 05:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
You beat me to it by seconds Dragons flight. Viridae Talk 12:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
The last stable version of the paragraph regarding self-published works reads (before the edit war beginning 23 June, 2007, and without formatting or links):
user:2005 proposes adding the following sentence:
User:SlimVirgin proposes a different addition:
I think most people are amenable to adding language clarifying the role of external links to self-published material. But what should that be? Thoughts? Wikidemo 06:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Conceivably, there are self-published sites written by recognizable experts on the subject of living person who are recognizable experts on that subject (the living person) by dint of third-party publications. If that site is not published by the subject, it would not be linked in "External links" section of an article that is a biographical article about the person. But it might be linked in a notes citation as a reliable and verifiable source of information because the author of the site is a recognized expert on the subject. That aspect of WP:V applies here too. One needs to consult all of WP:V#Sources to be able to distinguish between what is considered "reliable and verifiable" as a self-published source (and external link) in Wikipedia. But one also needs to link to external links that do not violate WP:BLP, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (in their presentation as such) and that are in keeping also with WP:POV. I don't think it's that difficult to do that. One exerts "editorial discretion" while still following the policies. It's responsible editing practice to do so. -- NYScholar 19:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I have to agree with WilyD. The proposed "SlimVirgin phrasing" would ban us from ever linking to the site of a political party, even when we are talking about important members of that political party, such as its founder, its current leader, previous leaders, and so forth. That's silly. It needs to be rephrased. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 21:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
We seem to be drifting. Can we please continue seeing if there is consensus for what language if any to add, and keep comments focused on that at least in this section so we stay on topic and everyone who wants can be heard?
So far we have:
I'll suggest my own.
-- Wikidemo 21:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Another:
Inserting a heading again to separate consensus discussion from digression. Save for my one intervening comment we have 34 edits in a row from a single editor, 15,000+ bytes of new content. Is there such a thing as a brevity request? Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines goes over things like being concise, staying on topic, clear layouts, etc. I'm afraid everyone will tune out if they haven't already. There is no consensus yet for adding anything beyond the "original version" above and I'm afraid that if we don't find one in the next day people will keep adding stuff anyway over objections, and then we're back to an edit war. Wikidemo 21:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps my request to stay on topic in the above section was not clear enough. I asked what language if any we should add to the version above marked "original." Consensus means we add something. No consensus for new language means we revert to the original version once we are out of edit lock. If you're going to discuss the language in the above section please address the question presented, and keep comments brief and to the point. For lengthy digressions and other matters would you kindly discuss in a different section -- like this one? I've added the heading above to help with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo ( talk • contribs) 02:48, August 14, 2007 (UTC)
Re: the references to "obscure newspapers" in WP:BLP and elsewhere in Wikipedia: I think the term at least needs a clear definition, discussion about what the phrase denotes (not connotes), and whether or not it belongs in WP:BLP#Reliable sources. I am questioning its validity in the statement. Example in point: Jewish Telegraphic Agency newspapers, such as The Jerusalem Post, publications cited (sometimes specifically, sometimes not) by the Tulsa Jewish Review(and other U.S. Jewish community newspapers, journals, and magazines), which one editor termed an "obscure" source, I think incorrectly; the editor did not want the information which was properly (reliably and verifiably) sourced included in an article about Lewis Libby, to which WP:BLP#Well known public figures applies, and termed the source "obscure". [An arbitration resolved the contended matter in favor of citing the source as reliable and verifiable: see Talk:Lewis Libby; WP:POV also applies to WP:BLP#Well known public figures. In my view, The Jerusalem Post is a notable newspaper, it has an article about it in Wikipedia (because it is notable; not "obscure"), as does Jewish Telegraphic Agency, and it is thus not "obscure"; "obscure", as I state above, is a subjective and value-judgment-laden term and, I believe, can lead to contention. One way that editors will have to exclude otherwise-includable points of view on a subject who happens to be a living person (when the information is neither potentially libelous or negative, just factual information) is to claim that the source is an "obscure newspaper." -- NYScholar 20:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC) [expanded somewhat. -- NYScholar 20:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)]
There is already discussion in this talk page, at Talk:NNDB, and in the WP:BLP/N about the listing of the NNDB in "External links" section of Wikipedia. There is confusion about that too due to the "guideline" status of WP:EL and how it is supposed to be consistent with WP:V. This assumption that a "source" of "content" in Wikipedia is immune from WP:V if it is placed in the "External links" section leads to problems. Either an "External link" is in keeping with core policies in Wikipedia (all of them) or it is not. Either NNDB is or it isn't; either "self-published" "unofficial" or "non-official" fansites are or they are not. Editors need to know what to do with these kinds of sources of information. (And they are "sources of information"; if they were not sources of information, they would not be linked in the Wikipedia articles at all, even in "External links". I have asked: "for what purpose" are these "external links" being included in Wikipedia articles (in any section)? If the purpose is to direct readers to them as a source of information about a living person, then WP:BLP pertains. -- NYScholar 21:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The comments [in above sections] do not state the language that was in BLP#Reliable sources before the current version; what is quoted above is not SlimVirgin's proposal (the language in there before): the current passage reads:
Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all. Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below). Unreliable and unverifiable sources should not be linked anywhere in Wikipedia space as sources of information about living persons, including in "External links" sections of articles.
The previous passage, which included SV's language had a phrase (not a clause) which said "including as an external link"; that was deleted before I noticed the newer version. I added the sentence "Unreliable and unverifiable sources ... articles."
The earlier parts of WP:BLP already address the other issues. There is no need for changing it. The sentence that I added does not rule out linking to political party websites (though not in "External links" sections of articles about living persons--which seems reasonable) in keeping still with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV; in the case of well-known public figures, which includes many still-living actors and other celebrities, politicial candidates, and so on, WP:BLP#Well known public figures and WP:POV are already clear.
Referring to WP:EL as if it were on a par with WP:V is not appropriate. WP:EL are guidelines that refer to core policies WP:V and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and WP:EL also refers to WP:BLP. I don't see any need for further revision. It is clear that official websites of organizations are reliable and verifiable sources of information about them. [They have biases, of course, in favor of the organizations that they describe; they are "first-party sources," not "second party" or "third-party sources"; and all three kinds of sources are defined and discussed in WP:V#Sources.] If the organizations are partisan political organizations, those sites are partisan sites, and the passage currently refers to such websites ("partisan websites"). I believe that "obscure newspapers" is problematic, however, because "obscure" is a highly-subjective value-judgment-laden adjective. What is "obscure" to some people in the world are major media to others. "Partisan" is a clearer descriptive term. Most partisan sites have clearly-defined biases. For related information, see WP:POV, which also links to WP:BLP and protects well-known public figures from libelous statements in Wikipedia even while it states that various points of view, even those negative from the perspective of the living person, are permissible for development in articles about living persons. Sites giving such pejorative potentially libelous information would not be linkable as "external links" in articles about living persons, according to the current language in WP:BLP#Reliable sources, although they might be listed as sources in citations to main body discussion. Such sources would still have to adhere to WP:V#Sources. I don't see difficulties that the earlier comments state. These situations are already covered in WP:V#Sources. As I say above, after thinking about it further, I recalled that my first impression of "obscure" was that it could prove problematic due to its subjectivity and unenforceability. -- NYScholar 03:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with Wikidemo's interpretations of WP:BLP as he has been commenting on Wikipedia talk:External links. I prefer to speak for myself, as I have done above. The only question I have [at the time that I posted this; other questions arose later] about the current wording involves the references to "obscure newspapers" in WP:BLP. I don't agree with Wikidemo's arguments for allowing self-published fansites that are not official sites published by the subjects of articles about living persons or in material about living persons as "external links" in Wikipedia space. Please see the other talk page discussion for that disagreement. I would prefer that other users not restate my comments. Please scroll up for my own statements of my views. Thank you. -- NYScholar 19:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC) [After another user changed the main subheading of "Related discussion" etc., asking for subheadings, I added subheadings for my own comments; I also added the bracketed reference "[at the time that I posted this; other questions arose later]" so that the subheading sec. comment could be followed. My subheadings have been necessitated by the other user's changes to the page after I posted my original comments. Thank you. -- NYScholar 02:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)]
As I and others argue here and there, WP:V is core policy in Wikipedia, and it pertains to everything in it. Sources and external links (which link to (direct readers to) sources of material) must be "verifiable" and adhere to the rest of WP:V. WP:EL is a guideline, not a policy, and parts of it conflict with WP:V as it is currently written. See Wikipedia talk:External links for that discussion. Please avoid focusing on contributors instead of on content. These are content matters. -- NYScholar 19:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. 'Verifiable' in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.
Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. The others include Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three. (Italics added.)
We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space. [Embedded footnote in original is not in this quotation of it; please consult the footnote there.]
("editing conflict")Re: the references to "obscure newspapers" in WP:BLP and elsewhere in Wikipedia: I think the term at least needs a clear definition, discussion about what the phrase denotes (not connotes), and whether or not it belongs in WP:BLP#Reliable sources. I am questioning its validity in the statement. Example in point: Jewish Telegraphic Agency newspapers, such as The Jerusalem Post, publications cited (sometimes specifically, sometimes not) by the Tulsa Jewish Review [1] (and other U.S. Jewish community newspapers, journals, and magazines), which one editor termed an "obscure" source, I think incorrectly; the editor did not want the information which was properly (reliably and verifiably) sourced included in an article about Lewis Libby, to which WP:BLP#Well known public figures applies, and termed the source "obscure". In my view, The Jerusalem Post is a notable newspaper, it has an article about it in Wikipedia (because it is notable; not "obscure"), as does Jewish Telegraphic Agency, and it is thus not "obscure"; "obscure", as I state above, is a subjective and value-judgment-laden term and, I believe, can lead to contention. One way that editors will have to exclude otherwise-includable points of view on a subject who happens to be a living person (when the information is neither potentially libelous or negative, just factual information) is to claim that the source is an "obscure newspaper." [Updated; added link, etc.] -- NYScholar 20:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Re: "Material available solely on partisan websites or in obscure newspapers should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all" [added the sentence for easier ref. -- NYScholar 22:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)]
I propose that one delete the whole phrase "or in obscure newspapers" from WP:BLP#Reliable sources. [revised on subsequent thought: ...] -- NYScholar 22:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I support the proposal to remove "or obscure newspapers" from the policy. "Obscure" could mean vastly different things to different people, and lends itself far too easily to "I haven't heard of it." As I pointed out above, there are also encylcopedic subjects which are covered only in newspapers which are unfamiliar to most editors, and thus might run the risk of being considered "obscure". — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 18:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Support removal. -- AnonEMouse (squeak) 18:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Support removal (for reasons cited in discussion below). Noroton 21:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I also question the phrase containing the word "solely"; there is no way for Wikipedia editors to ascertain that information appears "solely" anywhere; that runs up against WP:NOR, and Wikipedia editors are not experts in subjects. No one can ascertain that information appears "solely" anywhere. The database of accessible material on any subject rules that out as a possibility. That part needs re-thinking/re-writing as well. --[Updated.] -- NYScholar 21:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
That said [in the previous sec. of comments], one should not revise a "guideline" so that it is inconsistent and so that it violates Wikipedia's core policies, or policies based on them, like WP:BLP. That is the current problem, as I see it, with WP:EL in its current state. See particularly, WP:EL#Links to be considered item #4: "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." (bold print added)
Lest one lose sight of the original context of this discussion, please scroll up to Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#External links. Thanks. -- NYScholar 00:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Re: "proposals": I would like to see experienced administrators who have been administrators for considerable amounts of time and who have a long track record in understanding the applications of policies like WP:V, WP:BLP, WP:NOR, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view in a "guideline" like WP:EL (see their comments above) and experienced editors who have been editing Wikipedia for at least a year, not only editors who have been here for 6 months, addressing the issues of how to change the language of a policy as crucial as WP:BLP#Reliable sources in Wikipedia. I don't think that users should be strong-armed into changing policy this way. There is already a clearly-established consensus in Wikipedia called "core policies". Furthermore, I object to my words being edited (as they have been), to the changing of the headings after people posted comments in them (after being asked to add subheadings to my own comments, however, I have done that), and to statements being made in my name and to personal comments. Please focus on the content being discussed (the current wording of the policy) and not on contributors. Please see WP:NPA for further guidance. This has gotten out of hand. I object to the first sentence only (so far) in the current wording of WP:BLP#Reliable sources. My reasons are stated above. -- NYScholar 01:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I still think that the language of the first few paragraphs of WP:BLP#Reliable sources would be clearer and easier to read if it were in the active voice (like the next couple of paragraphs in that policy, beginning "Editors ..." . -- NYScholar 22:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Inasmuch as the consensus process seems to have broken down I am being bold and implementing a solution I think addresses everyone's concerns. Here is the language:
The 6/23/07 version:
The new sentence to be incorporated (that was the subject of objections and edit warring):
The integrated version:
As discussed above there has been an edit war for 6+ weeks over adding the new sentence (and other similar ones). There seems to be little disagreement on the goals, just the language. Some consider the new language "obvious" but others oppose it as non-consensus and overly broad to the point where it has unintended consequences of banning some legitimate and noncontroversial external links (e.g. links to recipes, sports and other statistics, band tour schedules, photo galleries, song lyrics, material that does not concern the living person, etc).
Specific changes are:
You can consider this a proposal because if you don't like it you're certainly entitled to revert, discuss, change, etc. But please, choose discussion over edit wars!
-- Wikidemo 22:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I still think that the language of the first few paragraphs of WP:BLP#Reliable sources would be clearer and easier to read if it were in the active voice (like the next couple of paragraphs in that policy, beginning "Editors ..." . -- NYScholar 22:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Reliable sources
Editors must provide reliable and verifiable sources for material about living persons and external links to sources of material pertaining to living persons very carefully. Without reliable and verifiable sources, a biography will violate the No original research and Verifiability policies and could lead to libel claims.
Editors should handle material presented in and/or hyperlinked in partisan sources with caution, and they should not use these sources at all anywhere in Wikipedia space if they are not reliable and verifiable (See WP:V#Sources). Editors should not use material about living persons from such sources at all anywhere in Wikipedia space (including as external links and in External links sections) if it is derogatory or otherwise negative about living persons and could potentially subject Wikipedia to claims of libel and slander. (See WP:BLP#Well known public figures for further guidance pertaining to living persons who are also public figures.)
Editors should never use self-published material from books, zines, websites, and blogs at all anywhere in Wikipedia space as a source of information about a living person unless the material and the sources meet the core policy of WP:V, including WP:V#Sources. Editors should never link to such material or to such self-published sources of material about living persons as an external link or in an "External links" section, unless the material, the source and/or the site are published by the subject of the article ( see below) or otherwise in keeping with WP:V#Sources. All such sources of information about living persons and external links to sources of information about living persons in Wikipedia space must not violate WP:V and other core policies in Wikipedia.
Editors should not repeat gossip about living persons published by tabloids and scandal sheets. They should ask themselves (1) whether or not the source is both reliable and verifiable, in keeping with WP:V#Sources; (2) whether or not the material being presented is being presented as true; and (3) even if it is being presented as true, whether or not such material is both notable and relevant to an Encyclopedia article about the subject. If any of those three instances do not pertain, the material must not appear anywhere in Wikipedia.When less-than-reliable publications print material that their writers suspect is untrue, the writers often employ weasel words or phrases. Editors must be vigilant and scrutinize similarly-ambivalent or ambiguous language in such less-than-reliable publications and exclude the material from Wikipedia if the source uses such rhetorical tactics. If editors detect that the reliability or verifiability of the publication is dubious and that its writer or writers do not appear to believe their own account, Wikipedia should not include such information. To do so would damage the credibility of Wikipedia.
Wikipedia editors should also be careful about perpetuating a feedback loop in which editors have repeated in a Wikipedia article an unsourced and speculative contention from any source (including newspaper and other otherwise reliable and verifiable media publications) and then subsequently cited that same dubious unsourced and speculative contention in a Wikipedia article to support the secondary source's speculative contention as if it were reliably and verifiably sourced when it is not. Editors who suspect that this sort of feedback loop is occurring should be especially resourceful to document other independent reliable and verifiable sources -- outside the loop itself -- for the contentious claim. If editors cannot find such independent reliable and verifiable sources, they must delete the contentious and unsupportable claim on sight from all Wikipedia space where it appears.
[The last part on the "feedback loop" is particularly tricky to write clearly; it may still need further work. -- NYScholar 23:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)]
-- NYScholar 23:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC) [Because language is crucial here, before logging out for an extended period of time, I have tried to correct my own typographical errors and improve emphasis in the above proposed language; it is an example. It is intentionally emphatic and any redundancies are intentional emphases; new editors frequently violate WP:BLP, especially with regard to WP:Attribution and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and the emphases are, in my view, necessary. -- NYScholar 01:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)]
Can we concentrate on the contentious paragraph first, then move on to other paragraphs later? I don't care for that part of the above proposal. It repeats four times in one paragraph that sources have to conform to WP:V, something that is already stated very clearly at the top of the page. In fact, as far as I can tell the paragraph is completely ineffectual in that after each prohibition it lays out, it takes back the prohibition by saying that the material is okay after all if it complies with WP:V -- which it would have to anyway if this paragraph were not there. I think the point of this paragraph is that with WP:V as a background, we want to be extra stringent on sources where living people are involved. If you parse the existing paragraph it bans as sources of info for living people: (i) derogatory material from partisan websites, (ii) derogatory material from obscure newspapers, and (iii) material sourced from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs (unless written or published by the person in question).
The question / dispute / task at hand is to consider whether and how to restrict external links beyond any limits that may already be in place. If we can tackle that one we will have done some good. Wikidemo 01:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
To amend or not to amend? And if to amend, then how?
My 2 centavos is that I like WilyD's proposal (raised above). Add: External links should never be used to circumvent to goals of the Biographies of Living People policy. Where external links are used to include information from self-published or dubious sources that would be inappropriate for a Wikipedia article, they should be removed. This seems to get to the unique problems of WP:EL as they related to WP:BLP, namely people trying to direct a reader to information that is doesn't belong on a WP:BLP page (although it might be okay on another page). Yet, it still leaves enough room for editorial discretion so that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Notmyrealname 17:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikidemo 17:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This seems like a recipe for disaster. At this point BLP is being used to remove information that is in fact in reliable sources. If that continues to be the case, and we adopt a strict BLP external link policy many legitimate links will not be linkable. Furthermore, it will prevent linking to notable criticism that also contains otherwise unproven allegations. This is a bad idea all around. JoshuaZ 15:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The changes that you are proposing are re-writing a core policy in Wikipedia: WP:V, specifically already addressed in WP:V#Questionable sources (the whole thing; as it says there, "(See below.)" and WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper)".
In my view, it is a mistake to make these changes that you are proposing in WP:BLP#Reliable sources: [these particular "emendations"--to amend or not to amend being the question.] As many experienced editors have already pointed out, WP:V pertains to all sources and all external links to sources of information in articles in Wikipedia, including those about living persons and including those not about living persons. The intended purpose is to make Wikipedia reliable, verifiable, and credible as a source of information about anything in it. [In articles not about himself or herself:] The use of self-published blogs at all [your example above] is very restricted in Wikipedia; the writer publishing his or her own blog has to be a recognizable expert on the subject about which he or she is being cited as a source of information [as a result of other non-self-published "third-party" publications]: WP:V#Sources. Why you are trying to re-define what WP:V already says in WP:BLP is really beyond me at this point. If the inconsistencies are in WP:EL, that "guideline" is where the inconsistencies need to be addressed, not here. I see no good coming from this effort thus far. [If this is how you propose to "emend" WP:BLP#Reliable sources, I say don't [amend or emend it]. In my view it was better with the phrase "including as an external link" (which SV had added, [which I thought perfectly clear and not ungrammatical at all], which you and others later and most recently removed, and, after the removal of that phrase, it was better with the sentence that that I had added, which you and others also removed and some others reinserted, but which is now reverted back to your earlier deletion of it.]
As far as how long WP:BLP#Reliable sources has been the subject of editing warring, its "stablility" seems to pre-date June 23, 2007 [ref. in editing summ. to " 6/23/07 version, last stable one before edit war"], if one examines the editing history before that date. This project page has not been "stable" only [on] June [23], if one looks at the history. [It was stable for periods of time both before and after that date.] There has been disagreement here about these matters for more than three months.
I think that WP:BLP should not be rewritten in a manner that is inconsistent with WP:V#Sources. BLP also fall under the rubric of verifiability of the information about living persons whether it is "derogatory" or not; whatever information is in a biography of a living person, like any other article in Wikipedia about any other kind of subject, the sources of the information in the article must be impeccable in terms of their reliability and verifiability, and that includes any external links to which one is linking in the article. All the information in an article must be accurate, reliable, and verifiable. There is no desire in Wikipedia to mislead its readers by linking to self-published unreliable and unverifiable sources of information that are not in keeping with WP:V#Sources, including WP:V#Questionable sources. If an external link links to a dubious source of information, why link to it? To do so is to mislead readers. WP:V is already clear on these points. By having WP:BLP include a link to WP:V, one is saying that it must conform to that core policy. What is unclear about that? It is the guideline WP:EL that is unclear, not WP:BLP. -- NYScholar 08:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC) [Updated in brackets; link added, clarifications. -- NYScholar 08:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)]
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