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Hi 4.250, your recent edit seems to contradict some of the stuff that follows, and WP:RS and WP:V, which says we may use questionable sources (for the want of a better word) as primary sources, but not secondary sources. You wrote: "They should never be used as primary sources: as sources of information about their authors. If the information can be verified by another source, use that other source as a more unbiased source of information. People lie and make mistakes."
Did you mean "never"? I was going to add a section about when it would be acceptable. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
No problem at all. I like planting seeds and watching others water them. I do question dealing with blogs on a guideline dealing specifically about "articles about living persons". We SHOULD refer them elsewhere for detailed instructions about blogs if detailed instructions about blogs are to be provided. But I won't touch it for a while as per your request. I excell at NOT doing stuff ;) WAS 4.250 02:54, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Well done - these look good. However, some suggestions
NO censorship. NO "think of the children". Information for FREE people, by FREE people. WAS 4.250 05:30, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I think this page should include guidelines related to invasion of privacy issues. Many WP articles are about people who are (it seems) notable enough to warrant a WP article, but who nevertheless are (or consider themselves to be) non-public persons. I think WP policy should reflect deference to the privacy interests of such persons. -- FRS 06:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
And well done to all involved in writing this. This needs to be policy. Agnte 10:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
As it reads, this is far too easy to take as advocacy for Sympathetic Point Of View. Which is NOT NPOV, and is frequently in conflict with it. - David Gerard 12:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, this policy should go further towards placating potentially injured parties, even if that involves a minor violation of NPOV. We really, really don't want to be sued. If an allegation of sexual misconduct is published in one newspaper, and cited in WP, and turns out to be wrong, it's really not good. On the other hand, a widely reported allegation that has undergone due investigation (eg, Lewinsky) is obviously fair game. Perhaps we should require two independent sources for libellous claims? In any case, unless the allegation is really important to the person (as it clearly is with Clinton/Lewinsky), does it really matter? Does WP really lose much if an article about an astronomer is all about his work, discoveries etc, and fails to mention the credible but unproven allegation that he inappropriately touched a student once? Unless it had consequences for his work ("Smith was forced to resign from Uni of Zarba following unproven allegations of sexual misconduct"), what is the relevance?
Publishing anything defamatory without rock-solid proof (in the form of very credible sources) is little more than rumour mongering, and I don't think we should do it. Stevage 15:01, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Good work. Need to add policy that prevents people involved in a legal case from editing articles related to people in the legal dispute. There is documented bias in these cases.
People have the right to sue each other, but they have no right to edit Wikipedia.-- FloNight 12:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
In its attempt at providing guidelines for all eventualities, it's too long to read and just enough to intimidate. Needs a severe tightening - David Gerard 16:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the long contentious Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are now species of slime-mold beetles may be an appropriate test case for,
and other proposals to see how sincere we really are. Wikipedia:Biographies on living persons deserve a special sensitivity#Tone of the writing. nobs 18:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to attempt a rewrite per my wikien-l message at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/temp - David Gerard 15:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Morven and Nobs01 have hacked at it slightly as well. I've just gone through the above talk page and added stuff based on it. I don't think we need to denounce blogs at length - anyone who thinks a random blog (as opposed to a high-quality blog, e.g. Groklaw) is a credible high-quality source isn't going to be swayed by a guideline. This is a "what to do" guide for editors that have a clue, because editors that don't will not take it in anyway.
Anything else important that should be added? I'd still like to make it shorter. In particular, the example of the academic is way too long - do we have a shorter real-life example we can remove the names from and use? - David Gerard 18:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Parallel editing is going to make things confusing. What say people if we either merge these versions or replace the current one with the one at /temp? — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 21:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a very good idea to write this, so thank you to Sarah :-)
A few ideas or comments just boiling in my mind.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikipediAhimsa : i like this page, which is more than 3 years old. It reminds me very much of the introduction of the policy proposal, in particular in describing the point of the totally abashed editor trying to correct, sometimes in all good faith, an article about him. It reminds me of this music performer, listed months ago amongst homosexual performers, correcting the wp entry, being rebutted ... and discovering that possibly 30 mirrors were repeating the claim on wikipedia. He was most polite, but answering him "yes, we made a stupid mistake, and right, we are morally responsible of 30 sites claiming this, but we can not do anything"... must have been real tough to him. I wish that we avoid such things in the future. There is a reason why so many history books do not publish information on current people, but rather wait for 20 years before doing so :-) We can not do this, but we should be *super* careful in the information we add in our articles.
Second point is I think that the page may be too long. But I also understand that length. What I would recommend is also making a nice and gentle page, where this is summarized and things explained gently to the newbie. This one is too long for the newbie. The page for the newbie should also mention "contacts" nearly at the top of the page. When an editor edits his own biography, he should be given a link to the policy page (this one here) and to the shortened newbie oriented page, so that he understands a bit more what is going on here and what he should do in case things get hot !
I am not so happy right now with the paragraph called Legal threats. Here is why
Legal threats implies a certain stance. It implies that what is important is the fact the person is making a "threat". I do not think this is a good approach to the issue. It should be more "lenient", maybe rather be something of the type "contacts in case of the editor wants to go on legal grounds" or "legal contact" or something of that type. More neutral. Not a title implying the one complaining is already an "ennemy". He might be acting in all good faith and he might actually even be right in his complaint.
Of course, an editor trying to "save" the page from the *bad* and *dangerous* newbie will perceive this as a legal threat. So, it may be important to differenciate two pages : one intended to the editor trying to "keep" the page as is. And one intended to the "newbie" trying to fix his biography... Because the goals of the two pages are different. The first one (for the editor) will contain guidelines of policy for the editor, as well as strong recommandations about what to do in case of legal threats, as well as recommandations to be avoid biting newbies. The second one (for the newbie trying to fix is biography) should contain quick explanations of how the system work, explanations of what is gonna happen to him if he edits with too much "energy" and who he should contact in case he wants to raise the issue with non-involved people (mediation or legal approach).
The other point is this one. While it make sense to tell an editor to have a legal threat be forwarded to the foundation, there is a danger in saying this. First because it will imply that the Foundation is necessarily the entity to attack (in short, the legal publisher). The second because it might imply that the editor himself is not responsible of what he writes. Which is NOT true. If an editor here keeps writing someone is a rapist, and this is untrue, the Foundation should act as soon as possible to remove the lie, but the editor writing the lie is definitly the original author of the lie, and as such, the one legally responsible. So, I believe the text should be rewritten so as to avoid to imply the Foundation is the publisher and is legally responsible.
I would also personally recommand against putting the office adress here, as the more often it is mentionned, the more difficult it will be to update when necessary. There is a link which might be best : Wikipedia:Designated agent. I would also recommand against putting a phone number. Finally, adressing the correspondance to danny@wikia.com does not look very professional :-) please remove it. There is no reason to let an email adress with a first name, nor with the name of a firm unrelated to Wikipedia. It could frankly be very confusing. We are starting to receive emails adressed this way "Dear Wikia people". I do not think it is suitable.
That is all I can think of immediately. Thanks a lot for this. Anthere
In this example, perhaps we could show the difference between an "allegation" made in print, and a sworn "allegation" made under oath, like a police report. nobs 20:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a very well-written and thought-provoking page. I fully support it as a guideline to support editors. It speaks to two audiences simultaneously - the subject of the article (who may be an editor) and the rest of the community working on the article. This page does an effective job of communicating to both audiences. While it is longer than many of our pages, I don't think it is too long for the topic.
I only disagree on one point. I would like to change the sentence "Blogs, personal websites, and other self-published materials are usually not regarded as credible third-party sources..." to read "... are never regarded as credible third-party sources..." and to delete the entire section currently headed as "When self-published material may be used as a source". Per Wikipedia:Reliable sources, "... personal websites are not used as secondary sources — and as primary sources only with great caution ..." An encyclopedia is, by definition, a tertiary source. We may go to a primary source to fact-check a secondary source but we should never use a primary source to create content. To do so would make us a secondary, not a tertiary source. This section creates confusion and appears to allow the use of the self-published material as an allowable source for content. We should simplify this page with a strong and simple rule that self-published material is not a credible source. Let's deal with the rare exceptions as exceptions. Rossami (talk) 02:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
You need to explore four additional areas:
1) Florida statutes and case law regarding invasion of privacy. Here's one place to start: http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/PI/RHandbook01.nsf/1119bd38ae090a748525676f0053b606/dfc00ac22467b7f5852569cb004cbc2a
2) State and federal law that distinguishes and defines a private person as opposed to a public person.
3) Wikipedia as a special case: Anyone can come along and sabotage a biography, which means that biographies on living persons have to be locked down in some fashion. A court would take a dim view of Wikipedia's "anyone can edit anytime" if someone attempts to present this as a defense of Wikipedia in a legal proceeding. Remember, it is an open question whether Wikipedia would be considered immune from torts under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act as an interactive Internet service provider. Even if it would be, there are more than a few legal scholars who already argue that Wikipedia is playing a completely different role than, for example, a provider such as BellSouth, and should be treated differently under this law.
4) Subjects should be notified that a biography is in progress, and they should be invited to participate, and if they prefer not to have a biography, then it should be deleted. This relates to the above point: Many subjects will not enjoy the prospect of checking their bio every day if it isn't locked down, and would prefer that it be deleted. Daniel Brandt 04:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
"One man's gossip may be another man's news, but distinguishing between the two is often the key in determining whether the press is guilty of "invasion of privacy." Whether an article or broadcast is newsworthy, whether the information was gathered in an objectionable fashion, whether truthful information is nonetheless highly offensive -- all are considerations in weighing individuals' claims against the news media. Invasion of privacy is a tort, a civil wrong, which can lead to jury trials and potential claims for compensatory and punitive damages. It also places judges in the unfamiliar and uncomfortable role as "editors" of last resort. The right of an individual to be free from invasion of privacy can be expressed in several different ways. Sometimes it is called the right "to be let alone." Cooley, Torts, 29 (2d ed. 1888). Often it is seen as a geographical area, "a kind of space that a man may carry with him into his bedroom or into the street." M. Konvitz, Privacy and the Law: A Philosophical Prelude, 31 Law and Contemporary Problems, 272, 279-80 (1966). Invasion of privacy is a relatively recent addition to American law. Rather than evolving from the English common law, as did libel, invasion of privacy can be traced directly to an influential article by Samuel D. Warren and Louis D. Brandeis, later to be a Supreme Court Justice [Samuel D. Warren and Louis D. Brandeis, The Right to Privacy, 4 Harv. L. Rev. 193 (1890)]. They argued for the creation of a private remedy -- a lawsuit -- to vindicate privacy rights. Writing before the era of electronic eavesdropping, telephoto lenses, and other modern technology, Warren and Brandeis prophesied that "mechanical devices threaten to make good the prediction that `what is whispered in the closet shall be proclaimed from the housetops'." Id. Not surprisingly, American courts today do not look kindly upon the media in these cases. However, the media's exposure to liability can be minimized through a grounding in privacy law. A two-step process determines whether the press is liable for invasion of a person's privacy: [...]" WAS 4.250 06:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a note to the new version suggesting that users identify themselves on the talk page of their biography using {{ Notable Wikipedian}} (and copied it to Wikipedia:Autobiography. Assuming that violent disagreement fails to ensue, could someone please clean up my rather clunky prose? Ta muchly — Phil | Talk 11:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The policy reads:
Andries changed this to:
The above misinterprets what defamation and libel is. Defamation:false accusation of an offense or a malicious misrepresentation of someone's words or actions. Libel: a false and malicious publication printed for the purpose of defaming a living person. Criticism of a person is not libel or defamation. Making false accusations is. As we, as editors, cannot make value judgments in respect of the truth of falseness of a statement made against a person, we have to rely on the guideline of "reputable sources" and provide highly credible and verifiable information as it pertains to accusations.
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
(outdent)Let me give you an example, If person XYZ says: "I am capable of levitating", I could argue: "please provide evidence that you do, by means of a report by an independent and reputable person witnessing that phenomena". I can then write in XYZ's biography at Wikipedia what this independent and reputable person witnessed. If a critic of person XYZ says, "XYZ is a rapist", I could argue, "please provide a reputable and verifiable source that confirm these allegations." If I get these, I can write this in the biographical article of XYZ. If there aren't such sources (even if I may believe this person's statement), and as I am as an editor working under specific guidelines, and to protect Wikipedia against accusations of libel, I will not write these allegations in the article. As Pjacobi succintlty put it We simply shouldn't include any extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
In reviewing other encyclopedic forms, biographies are concerned with the person, and discuss the merits which demonstrate the qualifications for entry. But does the policy address at what point does an entry cease to be about the person, and more about what brings that person the notariety? Two examples, (but not to be construed as comments on the following Wikipedia entries for either example):
I know that this is really rather subjective, but biographies are about the person and should be NPOV. OnceBitten 15:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Looking up the word biography, I find "An account of a person's life written, composed, or produced by another: a film biography; an oral biography." from the American Heritage dictionary.
When I want a biography on Abraham Lincoln, I don't need a complete run through of the Civil War, thats why there is an article on the Civil War. When I want a biography about Abraham Lincoln, I don't need an examination of Mary Todd Lincoln's eccentricties unless they impact the man and his administration.
My point is that an article promising to be a biography should be just that a biography, not an all inclusive missive. OnceBitten 22:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I've merged the two pages so we can start editing only one of them. I've left the draft more or less as it was, with the following changes:
Other than that, it more or less says what was on the draft page. Is everyone all right with this merger? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Echoing on-going discussions about this subject in various biographies I have added a section on this subject. It is very rough and needs refining, but I am sure the subject is well known, as some biograhical articles get overtaken by criticism of one of two persons. See Mother Theresa, as an example. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I posted this to the policy site since it is terrible important if you decide to take this path it seems inevitable that it will lead to Wikipedia style control of the internet. For instance I wrote This is can very dangerous for doing this may make Wikipedia a mere tool of a totalitarian government, such as in the notorious Walter Duranty case [3]. I suggest you read the material in this citation very very carefully, e.g. from citation immediately above:
"Taking Soviet propaganda at face value this way was completely misleading, as talking with ordinary Russians might have revealed even at the time. Duranty's prize-winning articles quoted not a single one — only Stalin, who forced farmers all over the Soviet Union into collective farms and sent those who resisted to concentration camps. Collectivization was the main cause of a famine that killed millions of people in Ukraine, the Soviet breadbasket, in 1932 and 1933 — two years after Duranty won his prize." El Jigüey 12/25/05
In Castro's case he uses a number of reporters including CNN's Lucia Newman to whitewash his situation. It is said by reliable although sources that Newman has turned in tape of dissidents to the Cuban authorities. It is wise to recall that after Saddam fell CNN was forced to fire a reporter filing from Bagdad (Peter Arnett)for exactly this kind of reporting [4]. El Jigüey 12/25/05
Exceptions as the one suggested (which I deleted, in italics below), could be made to apply to not only religious leaders, but to government officials, heads of governments, politicians, etc
...I argue that that "exception" is not applicable, as assessment of reliability of a person, is not in the domain of possibility for Wikipedia editors. Wikipedia is not a place to assert the morality of a person, their beliefs or their orientation, neither is the place to advocate for or against a political or religious point of view. That's better left to to the soapbox, a pamphlet, a critic's blog, or an newspaper editorial. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:02, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Humbug!!!!!!!!! To remove this "exception" would insulate totalitarian tyrants of whom there a still a good number in the world from criticism in such a way the more they repress their people and the dissemination of information the better they will look. El Jigüe 12/25/05
The "relevance" test is different for different contexts. If a politician plays a violin as a hobby, or has a mistress, it may not be relevant to his ability to govern, but it is relevant to his life and his biography. So long as as we stick with our usual standards of verifiability we should be OK. - Willmcw 23:31, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
On the section about people in this gray area between notable and non-notable, I think the example could be improved. Here it is:
An academic who has a Wikipedia article because of his work in physics is alleged to have touched a student inappropriately during a party. She tells her story to the university's student newspaper, and the story is picked up by a satirical magazine writing about sexual relations between academics and their students. No other newspaper repeats the claims, to which the academic has not responded. This allegation should probably not be placed in the article — it is not relevant to his notability, he is only marginally notable outside his work, it originates with a single witness and unsworn testimony, the sources are not particularly credible, no mainstream source has picked up the story and his life may be seriously affected if the allegation is spread.
Is the credibility of the source really a deciding factor? What if there were multiple credible sources? The allegations wouldn't be any more relevant to the person's notability, would they? -- Allen 00:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
What rules should apply about when to reveal the true name of a person known by an alias if they strongly try to keep it secret, and protest it's inclusion. This is brought up by Brandy Alexandre (porn star). Now in this specific case, I think revealing the name is ok *if* there are very good reliable sources. However, i'm posting this question here, as I can imagine other cases where we might have a tougher decision. For instance, what if it's illegal to reveal a name. For instance, Canadian courts regularly ban the publication of names of defendents (especially juvenille ones), but their names are published in US papers, and ultimately Wikipedia. I assume US courts sometimes issue similiar bans, which presumably effect the home of Wikipedia (but I don't know). Another case might be where a secret agent's identity is revealed, and it's not lawful to reprint it. Anyway, I'm just curious a) What is the current policy and b) what do people think the policy should be and c) maybe I missed the old discussion on this, and you can point me to that discussion. -- Rob 23:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
This addition means that no criticisms of living persons can be mentioned in their biographies. That would seem to violate NPOV as it does not allow for all viewpoints to be covered. Thoughts? - Will Beback 23:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, thank you for trying to explain this to me, but I still have concerns about the way this policy is articulated right now. I did indeed read the entire section; in fact, that's the basis for what I said above -- the sentences cited by Will Beback are not consistent with the rest of the section. Do you think those sentences can be removed? If not, why not? -- Allen 01:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I may have arrived too late, but it seems to me that if a biogrpahical article has a critic who has cited the extreme negative aspects of the subject's entry these should be noted, and not glossed over because they are produced on a smaller scale than those of the subjects pundits- this would be in the case of someone relativelyt unknown who fell into deeper obscurity, and during that time developed tendencies that could be construed as racist and or anti semitic.. and since the relative obscurity of the subject has cloaked their late in life negative behavior, not a whole lot of documentation exists on the subject... my point here is that by blanketing the entry with a no critics allowed clause, we may very well negate later aspects of a subjects life. It seems important to get all sides of a story, no matter how obscure, before throwing any and all criticisms away. 216.244.7.12 05:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I have upgraded this from "proposed" to "guideline". If there are any concerns regarding this, please voice them here. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
The section on Privacy of birthdays is unreadable. Kaldari 17:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Say a person is notable, but no reputable sources are available for a detailed biography, only hagiograhical material plus a lot of criticsm from reputable sources. Then how should the article on this person look like? See User:BostonMA/Mediation#Proposal_by_Jossi and User:BostonMA/Mediation#Suggestion_for_a_two_week_effort_to_add_non-critical_content. This mediation is about the article Sathya Sai Baba. Andries 19:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This guideline mentions "negative", but what is negative? The assessment of a trait or event as negative is subjective. For example, some people consider homosexuality negative. Others do not. I would rather have this re-worded more objectively. Andries 20:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This article falsely suggest that the weight given to opinions depends on the nr. of adherents. It is not the number of ignorant adherents that matter to determine the weight, but scholary and scientific and other informed opinions. For example, we do not allow the physics-related article on motion to state that an object makes a warped curve even if there are no forces on the ball, only if many people (I heard 30%) believe this. Does this mean that we allow 30% of the space in the Wikipedia article on motion to this clearly incorrect view? Of course not, because this is not an informed opinion, but the opinion of lay people. Andries 20:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) You say above: if scholarly sources assert that religious leader X did Y. In this case we will not be discussing a value judgement, as it would refer to something that leader X did. In this case, what is needed is simply to follow the policy of verifiability. That should be pretty straightforward to ascertain. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The guideline does not discuss how we determine the fraction dedicated to controversy and criticism about a person. What methods do you suggest? Here is an example of a discussion about it. The basis that I use there is to calculate the unweighted average of the fraction of criticism in reputable media and scholarly articles. User:BostonMA/Mediation#Percentages_of_criticism_in_various_articles Andries 17:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
It is unacceptable, IMO, to change the meaning of a sentence of this guideline to the opposite meaning, while the discussion has not brought any new arguments for changing it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I would also refer you to WP:NPOV which states:NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each. . (my emphasis). ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
In the privacy of birthdays section, it says "it is more common for the public to know which year someone was born without knowing his or her exact birthday". I think this needs to expand/get clarified a bit. To say "it is more common" implies that only most of the time are people's exact birthdate not public information, which in turn leaves open for debate who's exact birthdate can be published or not. This issue came up in the Brian Peppers debate, and people were deleting his exact birthdate despite him being a sex offender and having his exact birthdate released as public information on his sex offender website profile. I think we need to clarify if it is ok or not to release the exact birthdate in cases of non-public figures who's exact birthdate has been made public by the government. I would certainly think there wouldn't be any problem with doing so. Thoughts? VegaDark 02:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Privacy of birthdays
Wikipedia includes exact birthdates for many famous people, but including this information for some people should be handled with caution. While many well known living persons' exact birthdays are widely known and available to the public, the same is not always true for marginally notable people or non-public figures. With identity theft on the rise, it has become increasingly more common for people to consider their exact date of birth to be private information. When in doubt of the notability of the person in question, it is best to err on the side of caution for adding specific birthdates. It may be advisable to simply list the year of birth rather than the exact birthdate. Some things to consider when adding an exact birthdate are:
If the answer to all of the above questions is no, it is advisable to leave out the exact birthdate of the individual in question. Exceptions can be made in cases where the government has made the information publicly available, such as a sex offender or criminal. (crossed out due to addition of the last bullet-in such cases it will always be published by a reputable and public source)
Feel free to comment or suggest any changes. VegaDark 03:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I will make that addition. Let me know if this suffices. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ Are you saying that it SHOULD be published? WP doesn't need to publish every verifiable fact about a person, right? Especially a non-public figure. The scope of their article would be much more limited than a public figure right. A short balanced article that focuses on the whatever is encyclopedic about them. FloNight talk 03:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I just realized the implications if we had "Has the person in question taken action to increase their notability?". This should probably be rephrased to "Has the person in question taken action with the intent to increase their notability?" to clarify. VegaDark 05:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Just so you know, I tend to err on the side of more information, and birthdays are useful, especially if they are published. While it is probably crossing the line to go to a courthouse or a Zabasearch to look up an individual's birthday, many times so-called "non-notable" people will have profiles done of them, and sometimes they will have birthdays published in the newspaper. I like the original statement better, which allows the placement of said information. One example of people that would qualify are the many fashion models we have on WP. Their agencies publish profiles of them that often include their birthday (if not their birth _date_). I will continue to add that information as appropriate. Calwatch 03:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for a reply to the points I have raised. I have given ample time for discussion and I don't see much, I am about ready to put back in my changes unless someone else objects with a good reason. I also notified Jimbo of the discussion when I first posted this so if he wants one thing or another we won't know until he comments. VegaDark 00:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
What does a designated agent have to do with libel accusations? Designated agents are supposed to receive DMCA takedown notices. Superm401 - Talk 01:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a section about admins maintaining their privacy if their wish to maintain their anonymity as Wikipedia administrators. Admins can also cover for each other in deleting articles about admins if those articles expose the identity of an admin that wish to remain somewhat anonymous. The obvious problem being managed is that a Wikipedia admin might be stalked by blocked users if their true identity is known. There has only been once such case so far and it is recent. The text reverted under a new sub-section name of Wikipedia Administrators under the Privacy section was:
AWM -- 199.33.32.40 04:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
For example, the New York Times says that John Doe was born in 1955 but John Doe himself tells you this was a mistake and that his year of birth is in fact 1965. The Wikipedia article must reflect the published record, and not what John Doe has told you privately. If a correction is published, this is verifiable and hence usable. Since the claim has been called into doubt, it can be appropriate to write in this case "According to the New York Times, John Doe was born..." along with an appropriate citation of source.
You would think that John Doe would know his own birthday, Can we drop this paragraph with extreme prejudice? Kim Bruning 19:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. They should get mad at the person who published it originally. We are not a publisher of original thought. savidan (talk) (e@) 06:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to change this from a guideline to a policy. There's nothing contentious in it that I can see, and all good editors do it anyway as it mostly reiterates the need to adhere to our content policies. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Uninvited, it was Anthere, as I recall, who wanted that information to be included, so it might be a good idea to put it back. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
As sugested by Jimbo Wales in WikiEN-I, I would want to upgrade this guideline to policy. For that to happens, it needs some attention and more thought put into. Any suggestions on how to move this forward? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
these facts can fluctuate. Yes. Case closed. Good one Flo. WAS 4.250 23:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
(outdenting) When I re-read the guidance, the bullets struck me as redundant. Can we try a version without those bullets for a while? I think that the first paragraph was very clear and that most readers will interpret it in the spirit intended by this and the prior discussion. If we see evidence that readers are misreading the section and being inappropriately restrictive, we can always add the bullets back.
My concern is that this page is already too long. Anything we can do to keep the wording tight will make it more likely that people will actually read it. Rossami (talk) 23:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why we should be especially concerned about identity theft: we are not a primary source, so we're not enabling anything that wouldn't have already been possible anyway. If the information is out there, is verifiable, was obtained legitimately, and is useful to the article content, use it.
The hyperconcern with adverse reactions by biographical subjects is a dangerous trend. -- Saforrest 14:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
You know, I think this issue extends past just birthdays. Would something like this fit in:
wikipedia:personal information??
Getting back to Jossi's original point, should this be a policy? It is written as a guideline, meaning that it offers guidance but with many grey areas. The addition of unsourced critical information is handled by Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Biographies of living persons. Rather than making this a policy, I suggest that would be simpler all around if those aspects which we consider serious (birthdates perhaps) are added to the blocking policy, while retaining this as a guideline. - Will Beback 18:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding categories, one issue/problem with having a living-specific policy, is we could have conflicts with regard to dead people. For instance, the policy says living people must be convicted of a crim Consider the wording:
Does this also apply to dead people? If it does, we should say so explicitly here, and elsewhere. If it doesn't, we have a major consistency issue. Currently, there's a disagreement over sub-cats of Category:Criminals as to whether people famous for committing crimes, but who never were convicted, should be placed in the category. For instance, a renowned (lond dead) brothel operator, is known definatively to have committed a crime, but may never have been convicted. Since living and dead people go in the same category, some common approach seems warranted. -- Rob 15:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The issue is resolved in the minds of competent editors who understand why we are careful in labeling living humans as criminals. No amount of detail in policy and guidelines can replace people actually knowing what they are doing when they edit. WAS 4.250 16:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
you feel you are the competetant editor, and I am not You misunderstand me. I have no idea who you are or what you are good at. I am saying it depends. How long has he been dead, how much evidence is there he is dead, how much evidence is there he belongs in a category, is the category made irrelevant by time or other factors (Christ was executed for being a criminal, heads of state have been executed by conquoring kings as criminals), is defamation a factor, is a lawsuit a factor, does the category help people find things or is it just a way of insulting or is it mindlessly following a rule? As I say, it depends. WAS 4.250 17:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Have you forgotten about WP:V and WP:CITE? If a person, dead or a live has committed a crime and that crime is reported by a reputable source that is verifiable, then you can describe it and categorize as such. Otherwise you don't.
I would also argue that a category such as "Category:Criminals" is ridiculous as an encyclopedic category as it includes 'in the same category people that stole a pair of jeans at Wal-Mart and people that committed serial murders and rapists. A obvious case of guilt by association and I am sure a ground for POV pushing and demeaning both dead and alive people. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
What is and what is not criminal varies widely. Maybe violent occupations, sex related occupations, etc? WAS 4.250 20:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
"For example, add only people convicted of a crime in a court of law to Category:Criminals, and make sure the conviction was not overturned on appeal." ...what, by bribing the judge? -- zippedmartin 14:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The lead now reads: All unourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page.
I would argue that this needs tightening. People may add such negative materials by citing sources that are not reliable, such as a a personal homepage, USENET or a discussion forum. The current wording needs to refer to the appropriate policies to avoid this. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I added a quote from Jimbo from WikiEN-L which makes the point quite forcefully. Just zis Guy you know? 09:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree with Jossi's revert of my edit. The guidelines have to give two limits, not just one, to the space dedicated to criticisms. Otherwise I think this guideline does not properly reflect the NPOV policy of undue weight.
Here was my version
And here is Jossi's version to which he and only he reverted repeatedly
See also Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/archive1#Ways_to_assess_a_proportionate_fraction_of_criticism_and_controversy for an old inconclusive discussion about this between Jossi and me. Andries 16:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi. While reading the "Safe Harbor" section, I went to look up WP:CSD criteria A9 and couldn't find it. Eventually I discovered this edit, so I've edited this article accordingly. (BTW, A9 only existed for 9 hours!) Cheers, CWC (talk) 06:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I've created Template:blp, which says:
The template can be placed on the talk pages of biographies, so that new editors know what to do, and so that subjects of bigraphies can see what policies apply and who to contact if something goes wrong. I also thought we could add to the page a list of editors willing to help subjects sort out biography problems, so they don't have to contact the Foundation as a first step. Any thoughts about doing that? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that repeatedly putting back negative unsourced claims could be a blockable offense. My concern deals with how to express our policy to real world people that are not editors. -- FloNight talk 04:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
And there are different opinions among editors (and sometimes admin.) about whether the content is properly sourced! FloNight talk 04:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps there ought to be a template for the article itself as well? Living people with articles about them seem (from their statements in other media) to frequently arrive at Wikipedia with no idea how to use the site, and too upset to go through the documentation carefully, and they tend to either go away and say bad things about Wikipedia or mangle the article reporting what's wrong with it. Something like: "This article describes a living person. If you are this person and wish to provide corrections, please add to the discussion page". At least in the case of Jaron Lanier, his initial response was to add his discussion of the article to the article itself, where it was quickly removed (along with any changes to the actual article content he had made). I suspect that if there had been directions for him on a page he saw, he could have resolved the issues without the frustration. 66.92.72.41 15:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Currently we have:
Logically this shouldn't be limited to the article and talk page, it should apply anywhere. Whether in the AFD, user page, user talk page, project space, whatever. If it's not ok to say something on an article talk page, its likely not ok on a user page or user talk page (if the bio subject is named there). -- Rob 20:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Some advice please. There is a page about Z, the leader of a group. Editor A was a former member of Z's group and believes it is a cult. On the Z article talk page, A expressed his opinion that the "Z's group broke up my parent's marriage." Editor B, a current member of Z's group, removed the comment based on this policy. (I think that removal can be justified.) Would it be justified to remove the same comment from A's talk page discussion with editor C? (Neither A, B nor C are accusing others of violating WP:CIVIL, ie this is not part of a rant). Gimmetrow 17:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The following two sentences are in the text, and they confuse:
Could this be clarified?-- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Following up on Rossami's comment, this is my understanding:
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
In article Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an editor has now removed twice {{fact}} tags I placed on negative views of this... unpopular... figure. His argument is that the info is sourced in the subarticle. Should I let it go, insist, delete the unsourced material? What do you all think? -- CTSWyneken 16:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure! my request for references, first revert, I restore request with further explanation, reverted a second time. I hope to get some clarification here if the folk working on the policy find references in a sub-article suffient, as far as WP:BLP is concerned. -- CTSWyneken 23:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Foo's personal website says that Mr. Foo did X. This fact is not published in any other reliable source. The counter-claim exists, but not in a reliable source that can be used in a wiki article. Perhaps it's in a blog (not reliable), perhaps Mr. Foo has even admitted the contrary in person or private letter (not verifiable), or in maybe the source doesn't fall under fair use for some reason. Is the statement that "Mr. Foo did X" allowable in the article? What about "Mr. Foo states that he did X"? What, if any, notice should be taken that this is disputed in sources wiki considers unreliable? The point of this is to explore the limitations currently listed for use of personal sites. Gimmetrow 17:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC) (edited 20:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC))
Gimmetrow, you are missing an important point. As Wikipedia editors it is not our job to determine the truth or decide which point of view is most valid. Because we take this position, it doesn't matter if a particular fact appears in an article or not if it is not verifiable, notable information that is supported by reliable sources. If something is disputed by a non-valid source, editors without a point of view about the topic are not too likely to care one way or the other if the information is left out of the article. It is possible that harm can come to a living person if someone plants false information about him or her. For that reason, we need to be careful about repeating information that conflicts with that reported by an individual in this situation. The best course of action might be leaving the information out completely until the conflict is cleared up.
Traditionally, individuals self-report their educational and employment history on CV's that they give to outside organizations. For that reason, it is unlikely to matter if their college graduation is self-reported on their web site vs. another organization's web site. If we are lucky, we can find CV's posted on an employer's web site or the person might have a profile available from a business or professional organization. Often these organizations require people to sign statements that the information is valid and sometimes it is validated. Since self reporting is the most common method of getting this type of information, if I saw a conflict between self reported information on an individual's web site and information in a published profile, I might carefully explore the matter by checking publications dates, looking for corrections, or looking for more published sources to double check the information. Unfortunately, it is possible that an "opponent" is knowingly exploiting an innocent publishing error or even planted the error in a borderline reliable source, like an interview with a reputable news organization. For this reason, like I said above, completely removing the information might be the most appropriate response if a living person complains about the information in an Wikipedia article or if there is a conflict that you have not completely resolved. FloNight talk 17:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello again Gimmetrow : - ) The term "self-serving statement" needs to be used with care. Remember that the real living people that we are talking about are much more than subjects of Wikipedia articles. It probably would never occur to them that someone would see the ordinary statements found on their web site as self serving. In the example I used above about the CV, many people would be insulted to have their CV labeled as a "self-serving statement." We need to be careful with the language we use. This something that experienced Wikipedia editors have learned over time and the reason that WP:BLP was written. A careful balancing act to make sure that the article is a balanced presentation of verifiable, notable information relevant per WP:BLP. Regards, FloNight talk 23:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The answer to that question, Gimmetrow, is well explained in the numerous examples and comments given by Slimvirgin, myself and others. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
FloNight's and Slim's responses have been helpful. I will think about the rest and move on to other things. Gimmetrow 03:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
G._Patrick_Maxwell
Talk:G._Patrick_Maxwell This policyguideline should apply. There is a contentious section, which depends upon a single, primary, source.
Midgley
01:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I have some concerns about this sentence: "Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from biographies of living persons and their talk pages, and may do so without discussion and without regard to the three-revert rule." First, just from a technical perspective, doesn't this mean that we have a guideline (BLP) trumping policy (3RR)? I understand that there is a push to make this policy but regardless of the merits, I would advocate taking out the invitation to violate 3RR until this is policy. Having said that, I think that it should not be policy, as it undermines the spirit of 3RR which is that if your reversion is proper, others will support it. What I find especially troublesome is the phrase "poorly sourced" as this is an invitation to POV, I think. If something is clearly defamatory -- well, let's say I restored the Siegenthaler article to its former horrid state, and continued to revert back to it. Would an individual editor need to violate 3RR to protect the article from me? I think what would happen is multiple editors would be elbowing each other out of the way to undo what I had done, and I would be swiftly blocked. Why is that not enough? Also: editors may make multiple “without discussion?” That seems utterly contrary to the spirit of WP. I would love to have everyone’s input. IronDuke 18:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
"Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from biographies of living persons and their talk pages, and may do so without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule."
The essential phrase "Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material" occurs twice in this article, and it's badly writen because it's not clear. Does it only refer to negative material? Or is unsourced material meant to be singled out whether negative or not? It can be read in two possible ways:
Editors should remove any unsourced (or poorly sourced negative) material
or
Editors should remove any (unsourced or poorly sourced) negative material
This issue has actually come up, in the context of bio of a living person in which some editors seem to think that so long as material is not negative, it really needs no good source. Thus, neutral "info" material or stuff they have from private emails, they believe is includable, simply because it's not libelous. I would argue that for non-famous persons, it's an invasion of privacy. See the Talk page for Houston McCoy for more. Steve 18:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's say there is an individual who has an article in Wikipedia but who has had very little media coverage and coverage has been primarily negative (say it dealt with his denying the holocaust occurred, allegations that he embezzeled funds from a political party and numerous charities in 1988 and then again in 1994 and 2002, and his participation in starting a soup kitchen in 1996 but that he had to leave due to an allegation of misappropriation of funds. He was only convicted once in 1994). Let's say this individual has a website in which he denies the negative media allegations and claims that the media is against him due to his personal political view that President Bush is controlled by the Israeli state. No media outlet has ever published or mentioned the individual's thoughts on this subject. The individual would like the Wikipedia article on himself to expound on his political theory because he feels that is what he is known for. Further, he objects to the inclusion of the negative material since he feels it is his politcial theory that he is known for. Should the article be primarily about his political theory since his website serves him as a verifiable resource? Bernie Radecki 22:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Hi 4.250, your recent edit seems to contradict some of the stuff that follows, and WP:RS and WP:V, which says we may use questionable sources (for the want of a better word) as primary sources, but not secondary sources. You wrote: "They should never be used as primary sources: as sources of information about their authors. If the information can be verified by another source, use that other source as a more unbiased source of information. People lie and make mistakes."
Did you mean "never"? I was going to add a section about when it would be acceptable. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
No problem at all. I like planting seeds and watching others water them. I do question dealing with blogs on a guideline dealing specifically about "articles about living persons". We SHOULD refer them elsewhere for detailed instructions about blogs if detailed instructions about blogs are to be provided. But I won't touch it for a while as per your request. I excell at NOT doing stuff ;) WAS 4.250 02:54, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Well done - these look good. However, some suggestions
NO censorship. NO "think of the children". Information for FREE people, by FREE people. WAS 4.250 05:30, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I think this page should include guidelines related to invasion of privacy issues. Many WP articles are about people who are (it seems) notable enough to warrant a WP article, but who nevertheless are (or consider themselves to be) non-public persons. I think WP policy should reflect deference to the privacy interests of such persons. -- FRS 06:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
And well done to all involved in writing this. This needs to be policy. Agnte 10:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
As it reads, this is far too easy to take as advocacy for Sympathetic Point Of View. Which is NOT NPOV, and is frequently in conflict with it. - David Gerard 12:04, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
IMHO, this policy should go further towards placating potentially injured parties, even if that involves a minor violation of NPOV. We really, really don't want to be sued. If an allegation of sexual misconduct is published in one newspaper, and cited in WP, and turns out to be wrong, it's really not good. On the other hand, a widely reported allegation that has undergone due investigation (eg, Lewinsky) is obviously fair game. Perhaps we should require two independent sources for libellous claims? In any case, unless the allegation is really important to the person (as it clearly is with Clinton/Lewinsky), does it really matter? Does WP really lose much if an article about an astronomer is all about his work, discoveries etc, and fails to mention the credible but unproven allegation that he inappropriately touched a student once? Unless it had consequences for his work ("Smith was forced to resign from Uni of Zarba following unproven allegations of sexual misconduct"), what is the relevance?
Publishing anything defamatory without rock-solid proof (in the form of very credible sources) is little more than rumour mongering, and I don't think we should do it. Stevage 15:01, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Good work. Need to add policy that prevents people involved in a legal case from editing articles related to people in the legal dispute. There is documented bias in these cases.
People have the right to sue each other, but they have no right to edit Wikipedia.-- FloNight 12:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
In its attempt at providing guidelines for all eventualities, it's too long to read and just enough to intimidate. Needs a severe tightening - David Gerard 16:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps the long contentious Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are now species of slime-mold beetles may be an appropriate test case for,
and other proposals to see how sincere we really are. Wikipedia:Biographies on living persons deserve a special sensitivity#Tone of the writing. nobs 18:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to attempt a rewrite per my wikien-l message at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/temp - David Gerard 15:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Morven and Nobs01 have hacked at it slightly as well. I've just gone through the above talk page and added stuff based on it. I don't think we need to denounce blogs at length - anyone who thinks a random blog (as opposed to a high-quality blog, e.g. Groklaw) is a credible high-quality source isn't going to be swayed by a guideline. This is a "what to do" guide for editors that have a clue, because editors that don't will not take it in anyway.
Anything else important that should be added? I'd still like to make it shorter. In particular, the example of the academic is way too long - do we have a shorter real-life example we can remove the names from and use? - David Gerard 18:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Parallel editing is going to make things confusing. What say people if we either merge these versions or replace the current one with the one at /temp? — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 21:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a very good idea to write this, so thank you to Sarah :-)
A few ideas or comments just boiling in my mind.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikipediAhimsa : i like this page, which is more than 3 years old. It reminds me very much of the introduction of the policy proposal, in particular in describing the point of the totally abashed editor trying to correct, sometimes in all good faith, an article about him. It reminds me of this music performer, listed months ago amongst homosexual performers, correcting the wp entry, being rebutted ... and discovering that possibly 30 mirrors were repeating the claim on wikipedia. He was most polite, but answering him "yes, we made a stupid mistake, and right, we are morally responsible of 30 sites claiming this, but we can not do anything"... must have been real tough to him. I wish that we avoid such things in the future. There is a reason why so many history books do not publish information on current people, but rather wait for 20 years before doing so :-) We can not do this, but we should be *super* careful in the information we add in our articles.
Second point is I think that the page may be too long. But I also understand that length. What I would recommend is also making a nice and gentle page, where this is summarized and things explained gently to the newbie. This one is too long for the newbie. The page for the newbie should also mention "contacts" nearly at the top of the page. When an editor edits his own biography, he should be given a link to the policy page (this one here) and to the shortened newbie oriented page, so that he understands a bit more what is going on here and what he should do in case things get hot !
I am not so happy right now with the paragraph called Legal threats. Here is why
Legal threats implies a certain stance. It implies that what is important is the fact the person is making a "threat". I do not think this is a good approach to the issue. It should be more "lenient", maybe rather be something of the type "contacts in case of the editor wants to go on legal grounds" or "legal contact" or something of that type. More neutral. Not a title implying the one complaining is already an "ennemy". He might be acting in all good faith and he might actually even be right in his complaint.
Of course, an editor trying to "save" the page from the *bad* and *dangerous* newbie will perceive this as a legal threat. So, it may be important to differenciate two pages : one intended to the editor trying to "keep" the page as is. And one intended to the "newbie" trying to fix his biography... Because the goals of the two pages are different. The first one (for the editor) will contain guidelines of policy for the editor, as well as strong recommandations about what to do in case of legal threats, as well as recommandations to be avoid biting newbies. The second one (for the newbie trying to fix is biography) should contain quick explanations of how the system work, explanations of what is gonna happen to him if he edits with too much "energy" and who he should contact in case he wants to raise the issue with non-involved people (mediation or legal approach).
The other point is this one. While it make sense to tell an editor to have a legal threat be forwarded to the foundation, there is a danger in saying this. First because it will imply that the Foundation is necessarily the entity to attack (in short, the legal publisher). The second because it might imply that the editor himself is not responsible of what he writes. Which is NOT true. If an editor here keeps writing someone is a rapist, and this is untrue, the Foundation should act as soon as possible to remove the lie, but the editor writing the lie is definitly the original author of the lie, and as such, the one legally responsible. So, I believe the text should be rewritten so as to avoid to imply the Foundation is the publisher and is legally responsible.
I would also personally recommand against putting the office adress here, as the more often it is mentionned, the more difficult it will be to update when necessary. There is a link which might be best : Wikipedia:Designated agent. I would also recommand against putting a phone number. Finally, adressing the correspondance to danny@wikia.com does not look very professional :-) please remove it. There is no reason to let an email adress with a first name, nor with the name of a firm unrelated to Wikipedia. It could frankly be very confusing. We are starting to receive emails adressed this way "Dear Wikia people". I do not think it is suitable.
That is all I can think of immediately. Thanks a lot for this. Anthere
In this example, perhaps we could show the difference between an "allegation" made in print, and a sworn "allegation" made under oath, like a police report. nobs 20:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I think this is a very well-written and thought-provoking page. I fully support it as a guideline to support editors. It speaks to two audiences simultaneously - the subject of the article (who may be an editor) and the rest of the community working on the article. This page does an effective job of communicating to both audiences. While it is longer than many of our pages, I don't think it is too long for the topic.
I only disagree on one point. I would like to change the sentence "Blogs, personal websites, and other self-published materials are usually not regarded as credible third-party sources..." to read "... are never regarded as credible third-party sources..." and to delete the entire section currently headed as "When self-published material may be used as a source". Per Wikipedia:Reliable sources, "... personal websites are not used as secondary sources — and as primary sources only with great caution ..." An encyclopedia is, by definition, a tertiary source. We may go to a primary source to fact-check a secondary source but we should never use a primary source to create content. To do so would make us a secondary, not a tertiary source. This section creates confusion and appears to allow the use of the self-published material as an allowable source for content. We should simplify this page with a strong and simple rule that self-published material is not a credible source. Let's deal with the rare exceptions as exceptions. Rossami (talk) 02:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
You need to explore four additional areas:
1) Florida statutes and case law regarding invasion of privacy. Here's one place to start: http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/PI/RHandbook01.nsf/1119bd38ae090a748525676f0053b606/dfc00ac22467b7f5852569cb004cbc2a
2) State and federal law that distinguishes and defines a private person as opposed to a public person.
3) Wikipedia as a special case: Anyone can come along and sabotage a biography, which means that biographies on living persons have to be locked down in some fashion. A court would take a dim view of Wikipedia's "anyone can edit anytime" if someone attempts to present this as a defense of Wikipedia in a legal proceeding. Remember, it is an open question whether Wikipedia would be considered immune from torts under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act as an interactive Internet service provider. Even if it would be, there are more than a few legal scholars who already argue that Wikipedia is playing a completely different role than, for example, a provider such as BellSouth, and should be treated differently under this law.
4) Subjects should be notified that a biography is in progress, and they should be invited to participate, and if they prefer not to have a biography, then it should be deleted. This relates to the above point: Many subjects will not enjoy the prospect of checking their bio every day if it isn't locked down, and would prefer that it be deleted. Daniel Brandt 04:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
"One man's gossip may be another man's news, but distinguishing between the two is often the key in determining whether the press is guilty of "invasion of privacy." Whether an article or broadcast is newsworthy, whether the information was gathered in an objectionable fashion, whether truthful information is nonetheless highly offensive -- all are considerations in weighing individuals' claims against the news media. Invasion of privacy is a tort, a civil wrong, which can lead to jury trials and potential claims for compensatory and punitive damages. It also places judges in the unfamiliar and uncomfortable role as "editors" of last resort. The right of an individual to be free from invasion of privacy can be expressed in several different ways. Sometimes it is called the right "to be let alone." Cooley, Torts, 29 (2d ed. 1888). Often it is seen as a geographical area, "a kind of space that a man may carry with him into his bedroom or into the street." M. Konvitz, Privacy and the Law: A Philosophical Prelude, 31 Law and Contemporary Problems, 272, 279-80 (1966). Invasion of privacy is a relatively recent addition to American law. Rather than evolving from the English common law, as did libel, invasion of privacy can be traced directly to an influential article by Samuel D. Warren and Louis D. Brandeis, later to be a Supreme Court Justice [Samuel D. Warren and Louis D. Brandeis, The Right to Privacy, 4 Harv. L. Rev. 193 (1890)]. They argued for the creation of a private remedy -- a lawsuit -- to vindicate privacy rights. Writing before the era of electronic eavesdropping, telephoto lenses, and other modern technology, Warren and Brandeis prophesied that "mechanical devices threaten to make good the prediction that `what is whispered in the closet shall be proclaimed from the housetops'." Id. Not surprisingly, American courts today do not look kindly upon the media in these cases. However, the media's exposure to liability can be minimized through a grounding in privacy law. A two-step process determines whether the press is liable for invasion of a person's privacy: [...]" WAS 4.250 06:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I've added a note to the new version suggesting that users identify themselves on the talk page of their biography using {{ Notable Wikipedian}} (and copied it to Wikipedia:Autobiography. Assuming that violent disagreement fails to ensue, could someone please clean up my rather clunky prose? Ta muchly — Phil | Talk 11:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The policy reads:
Andries changed this to:
The above misinterprets what defamation and libel is. Defamation:false accusation of an offense or a malicious misrepresentation of someone's words or actions. Libel: a false and malicious publication printed for the purpose of defaming a living person. Criticism of a person is not libel or defamation. Making false accusations is. As we, as editors, cannot make value judgments in respect of the truth of falseness of a statement made against a person, we have to rely on the guideline of "reputable sources" and provide highly credible and verifiable information as it pertains to accusations.
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
(outdent)Let me give you an example, If person XYZ says: "I am capable of levitating", I could argue: "please provide evidence that you do, by means of a report by an independent and reputable person witnessing that phenomena". I can then write in XYZ's biography at Wikipedia what this independent and reputable person witnessed. If a critic of person XYZ says, "XYZ is a rapist", I could argue, "please provide a reputable and verifiable source that confirm these allegations." If I get these, I can write this in the biographical article of XYZ. If there aren't such sources (even if I may believe this person's statement), and as I am as an editor working under specific guidelines, and to protect Wikipedia against accusations of libel, I will not write these allegations in the article. As Pjacobi succintlty put it We simply shouldn't include any extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:43, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
In reviewing other encyclopedic forms, biographies are concerned with the person, and discuss the merits which demonstrate the qualifications for entry. But does the policy address at what point does an entry cease to be about the person, and more about what brings that person the notariety? Two examples, (but not to be construed as comments on the following Wikipedia entries for either example):
I know that this is really rather subjective, but biographies are about the person and should be NPOV. OnceBitten 15:34, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Looking up the word biography, I find "An account of a person's life written, composed, or produced by another: a film biography; an oral biography." from the American Heritage dictionary.
When I want a biography on Abraham Lincoln, I don't need a complete run through of the Civil War, thats why there is an article on the Civil War. When I want a biography about Abraham Lincoln, I don't need an examination of Mary Todd Lincoln's eccentricties unless they impact the man and his administration.
My point is that an article promising to be a biography should be just that a biography, not an all inclusive missive. OnceBitten 22:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I've merged the two pages so we can start editing only one of them. I've left the draft more or less as it was, with the following changes:
Other than that, it more or less says what was on the draft page. Is everyone all right with this merger? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Echoing on-going discussions about this subject in various biographies I have added a section on this subject. It is very rough and needs refining, but I am sure the subject is well known, as some biograhical articles get overtaken by criticism of one of two persons. See Mother Theresa, as an example. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I posted this to the policy site since it is terrible important if you decide to take this path it seems inevitable that it will lead to Wikipedia style control of the internet. For instance I wrote This is can very dangerous for doing this may make Wikipedia a mere tool of a totalitarian government, such as in the notorious Walter Duranty case [3]. I suggest you read the material in this citation very very carefully, e.g. from citation immediately above:
"Taking Soviet propaganda at face value this way was completely misleading, as talking with ordinary Russians might have revealed even at the time. Duranty's prize-winning articles quoted not a single one — only Stalin, who forced farmers all over the Soviet Union into collective farms and sent those who resisted to concentration camps. Collectivization was the main cause of a famine that killed millions of people in Ukraine, the Soviet breadbasket, in 1932 and 1933 — two years after Duranty won his prize." El Jigüey 12/25/05
In Castro's case he uses a number of reporters including CNN's Lucia Newman to whitewash his situation. It is said by reliable although sources that Newman has turned in tape of dissidents to the Cuban authorities. It is wise to recall that after Saddam fell CNN was forced to fire a reporter filing from Bagdad (Peter Arnett)for exactly this kind of reporting [4]. El Jigüey 12/25/05
Exceptions as the one suggested (which I deleted, in italics below), could be made to apply to not only religious leaders, but to government officials, heads of governments, politicians, etc
...I argue that that "exception" is not applicable, as assessment of reliability of a person, is not in the domain of possibility for Wikipedia editors. Wikipedia is not a place to assert the morality of a person, their beliefs or their orientation, neither is the place to advocate for or against a political or religious point of view. That's better left to to the soapbox, a pamphlet, a critic's blog, or an newspaper editorial. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:02, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Humbug!!!!!!!!! To remove this "exception" would insulate totalitarian tyrants of whom there a still a good number in the world from criticism in such a way the more they repress their people and the dissemination of information the better they will look. El Jigüe 12/25/05
The "relevance" test is different for different contexts. If a politician plays a violin as a hobby, or has a mistress, it may not be relevant to his ability to govern, but it is relevant to his life and his biography. So long as as we stick with our usual standards of verifiability we should be OK. - Willmcw 23:31, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
On the section about people in this gray area between notable and non-notable, I think the example could be improved. Here it is:
An academic who has a Wikipedia article because of his work in physics is alleged to have touched a student inappropriately during a party. She tells her story to the university's student newspaper, and the story is picked up by a satirical magazine writing about sexual relations between academics and their students. No other newspaper repeats the claims, to which the academic has not responded. This allegation should probably not be placed in the article — it is not relevant to his notability, he is only marginally notable outside his work, it originates with a single witness and unsworn testimony, the sources are not particularly credible, no mainstream source has picked up the story and his life may be seriously affected if the allegation is spread.
Is the credibility of the source really a deciding factor? What if there were multiple credible sources? The allegations wouldn't be any more relevant to the person's notability, would they? -- Allen 00:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
What rules should apply about when to reveal the true name of a person known by an alias if they strongly try to keep it secret, and protest it's inclusion. This is brought up by Brandy Alexandre (porn star). Now in this specific case, I think revealing the name is ok *if* there are very good reliable sources. However, i'm posting this question here, as I can imagine other cases where we might have a tougher decision. For instance, what if it's illegal to reveal a name. For instance, Canadian courts regularly ban the publication of names of defendents (especially juvenille ones), but their names are published in US papers, and ultimately Wikipedia. I assume US courts sometimes issue similiar bans, which presumably effect the home of Wikipedia (but I don't know). Another case might be where a secret agent's identity is revealed, and it's not lawful to reprint it. Anyway, I'm just curious a) What is the current policy and b) what do people think the policy should be and c) maybe I missed the old discussion on this, and you can point me to that discussion. -- Rob 23:55, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
This addition means that no criticisms of living persons can be mentioned in their biographies. That would seem to violate NPOV as it does not allow for all viewpoints to be covered. Thoughts? - Will Beback 23:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, thank you for trying to explain this to me, but I still have concerns about the way this policy is articulated right now. I did indeed read the entire section; in fact, that's the basis for what I said above -- the sentences cited by Will Beback are not consistent with the rest of the section. Do you think those sentences can be removed? If not, why not? -- Allen 01:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I may have arrived too late, but it seems to me that if a biogrpahical article has a critic who has cited the extreme negative aspects of the subject's entry these should be noted, and not glossed over because they are produced on a smaller scale than those of the subjects pundits- this would be in the case of someone relativelyt unknown who fell into deeper obscurity, and during that time developed tendencies that could be construed as racist and or anti semitic.. and since the relative obscurity of the subject has cloaked their late in life negative behavior, not a whole lot of documentation exists on the subject... my point here is that by blanketing the entry with a no critics allowed clause, we may very well negate later aspects of a subjects life. It seems important to get all sides of a story, no matter how obscure, before throwing any and all criticisms away. 216.244.7.12 05:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I have upgraded this from "proposed" to "guideline". If there are any concerns regarding this, please voice them here. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
The section on Privacy of birthdays is unreadable. Kaldari 17:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Say a person is notable, but no reputable sources are available for a detailed biography, only hagiograhical material plus a lot of criticsm from reputable sources. Then how should the article on this person look like? See User:BostonMA/Mediation#Proposal_by_Jossi and User:BostonMA/Mediation#Suggestion_for_a_two_week_effort_to_add_non-critical_content. This mediation is about the article Sathya Sai Baba. Andries 19:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This guideline mentions "negative", but what is negative? The assessment of a trait or event as negative is subjective. For example, some people consider homosexuality negative. Others do not. I would rather have this re-worded more objectively. Andries 20:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
This article falsely suggest that the weight given to opinions depends on the nr. of adherents. It is not the number of ignorant adherents that matter to determine the weight, but scholary and scientific and other informed opinions. For example, we do not allow the physics-related article on motion to state that an object makes a warped curve even if there are no forces on the ball, only if many people (I heard 30%) believe this. Does this mean that we allow 30% of the space in the Wikipedia article on motion to this clearly incorrect view? Of course not, because this is not an informed opinion, but the opinion of lay people. Andries 20:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) You say above: if scholarly sources assert that religious leader X did Y. In this case we will not be discussing a value judgement, as it would refer to something that leader X did. In this case, what is needed is simply to follow the policy of verifiability. That should be pretty straightforward to ascertain. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The guideline does not discuss how we determine the fraction dedicated to controversy and criticism about a person. What methods do you suggest? Here is an example of a discussion about it. The basis that I use there is to calculate the unweighted average of the fraction of criticism in reputable media and scholarly articles. User:BostonMA/Mediation#Percentages_of_criticism_in_various_articles Andries 17:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
It is unacceptable, IMO, to change the meaning of a sentence of this guideline to the opposite meaning, while the discussion has not brought any new arguments for changing it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I would also refer you to WP:NPOV which states:NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each. . (my emphasis). ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:24, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
In the privacy of birthdays section, it says "it is more common for the public to know which year someone was born without knowing his or her exact birthday". I think this needs to expand/get clarified a bit. To say "it is more common" implies that only most of the time are people's exact birthdate not public information, which in turn leaves open for debate who's exact birthdate can be published or not. This issue came up in the Brian Peppers debate, and people were deleting his exact birthdate despite him being a sex offender and having his exact birthdate released as public information on his sex offender website profile. I think we need to clarify if it is ok or not to release the exact birthdate in cases of non-public figures who's exact birthdate has been made public by the government. I would certainly think there wouldn't be any problem with doing so. Thoughts? VegaDark 02:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Privacy of birthdays
Wikipedia includes exact birthdates for many famous people, but including this information for some people should be handled with caution. While many well known living persons' exact birthdays are widely known and available to the public, the same is not always true for marginally notable people or non-public figures. With identity theft on the rise, it has become increasingly more common for people to consider their exact date of birth to be private information. When in doubt of the notability of the person in question, it is best to err on the side of caution for adding specific birthdates. It may be advisable to simply list the year of birth rather than the exact birthdate. Some things to consider when adding an exact birthdate are:
If the answer to all of the above questions is no, it is advisable to leave out the exact birthdate of the individual in question. Exceptions can be made in cases where the government has made the information publicly available, such as a sex offender or criminal. (crossed out due to addition of the last bullet-in such cases it will always be published by a reputable and public source)
Feel free to comment or suggest any changes. VegaDark 03:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I will make that addition. Let me know if this suffices. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ Are you saying that it SHOULD be published? WP doesn't need to publish every verifiable fact about a person, right? Especially a non-public figure. The scope of their article would be much more limited than a public figure right. A short balanced article that focuses on the whatever is encyclopedic about them. FloNight talk 03:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I just realized the implications if we had "Has the person in question taken action to increase their notability?". This should probably be rephrased to "Has the person in question taken action with the intent to increase their notability?" to clarify. VegaDark 05:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Just so you know, I tend to err on the side of more information, and birthdays are useful, especially if they are published. While it is probably crossing the line to go to a courthouse or a Zabasearch to look up an individual's birthday, many times so-called "non-notable" people will have profiles done of them, and sometimes they will have birthdays published in the newspaper. I like the original statement better, which allows the placement of said information. One example of people that would qualify are the many fashion models we have on WP. Their agencies publish profiles of them that often include their birthday (if not their birth _date_). I will continue to add that information as appropriate. Calwatch 03:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for a reply to the points I have raised. I have given ample time for discussion and I don't see much, I am about ready to put back in my changes unless someone else objects with a good reason. I also notified Jimbo of the discussion when I first posted this so if he wants one thing or another we won't know until he comments. VegaDark 00:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
What does a designated agent have to do with libel accusations? Designated agents are supposed to receive DMCA takedown notices. Superm401 - Talk 01:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a section about admins maintaining their privacy if their wish to maintain their anonymity as Wikipedia administrators. Admins can also cover for each other in deleting articles about admins if those articles expose the identity of an admin that wish to remain somewhat anonymous. The obvious problem being managed is that a Wikipedia admin might be stalked by blocked users if their true identity is known. There has only been once such case so far and it is recent. The text reverted under a new sub-section name of Wikipedia Administrators under the Privacy section was:
AWM -- 199.33.32.40 04:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
For example, the New York Times says that John Doe was born in 1955 but John Doe himself tells you this was a mistake and that his year of birth is in fact 1965. The Wikipedia article must reflect the published record, and not what John Doe has told you privately. If a correction is published, this is verifiable and hence usable. Since the claim has been called into doubt, it can be appropriate to write in this case "According to the New York Times, John Doe was born..." along with an appropriate citation of source.
You would think that John Doe would know his own birthday, Can we drop this paragraph with extreme prejudice? Kim Bruning 19:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. They should get mad at the person who published it originally. We are not a publisher of original thought. savidan (talk) (e@) 06:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to change this from a guideline to a policy. There's nothing contentious in it that I can see, and all good editors do it anyway as it mostly reiterates the need to adhere to our content policies. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Uninvited, it was Anthere, as I recall, who wanted that information to be included, so it might be a good idea to put it back. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
As sugested by Jimbo Wales in WikiEN-I, I would want to upgrade this guideline to policy. For that to happens, it needs some attention and more thought put into. Any suggestions on how to move this forward? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
these facts can fluctuate. Yes. Case closed. Good one Flo. WAS 4.250 23:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
(outdenting) When I re-read the guidance, the bullets struck me as redundant. Can we try a version without those bullets for a while? I think that the first paragraph was very clear and that most readers will interpret it in the spirit intended by this and the prior discussion. If we see evidence that readers are misreading the section and being inappropriately restrictive, we can always add the bullets back.
My concern is that this page is already too long. Anything we can do to keep the wording tight will make it more likely that people will actually read it. Rossami (talk) 23:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why we should be especially concerned about identity theft: we are not a primary source, so we're not enabling anything that wouldn't have already been possible anyway. If the information is out there, is verifiable, was obtained legitimately, and is useful to the article content, use it.
The hyperconcern with adverse reactions by biographical subjects is a dangerous trend. -- Saforrest 14:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
You know, I think this issue extends past just birthdays. Would something like this fit in:
wikipedia:personal information??
Getting back to Jossi's original point, should this be a policy? It is written as a guideline, meaning that it offers guidance but with many grey areas. The addition of unsourced critical information is handled by Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Biographies of living persons. Rather than making this a policy, I suggest that would be simpler all around if those aspects which we consider serious (birthdates perhaps) are added to the blocking policy, while retaining this as a guideline. - Will Beback 18:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Regarding categories, one issue/problem with having a living-specific policy, is we could have conflicts with regard to dead people. For instance, the policy says living people must be convicted of a crim Consider the wording:
Does this also apply to dead people? If it does, we should say so explicitly here, and elsewhere. If it doesn't, we have a major consistency issue. Currently, there's a disagreement over sub-cats of Category:Criminals as to whether people famous for committing crimes, but who never were convicted, should be placed in the category. For instance, a renowned (lond dead) brothel operator, is known definatively to have committed a crime, but may never have been convicted. Since living and dead people go in the same category, some common approach seems warranted. -- Rob 15:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The issue is resolved in the minds of competent editors who understand why we are careful in labeling living humans as criminals. No amount of detail in policy and guidelines can replace people actually knowing what they are doing when they edit. WAS 4.250 16:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
you feel you are the competetant editor, and I am not You misunderstand me. I have no idea who you are or what you are good at. I am saying it depends. How long has he been dead, how much evidence is there he is dead, how much evidence is there he belongs in a category, is the category made irrelevant by time or other factors (Christ was executed for being a criminal, heads of state have been executed by conquoring kings as criminals), is defamation a factor, is a lawsuit a factor, does the category help people find things or is it just a way of insulting or is it mindlessly following a rule? As I say, it depends. WAS 4.250 17:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Have you forgotten about WP:V and WP:CITE? If a person, dead or a live has committed a crime and that crime is reported by a reputable source that is verifiable, then you can describe it and categorize as such. Otherwise you don't.
I would also argue that a category such as "Category:Criminals" is ridiculous as an encyclopedic category as it includes 'in the same category people that stole a pair of jeans at Wal-Mart and people that committed serial murders and rapists. A obvious case of guilt by association and I am sure a ground for POV pushing and demeaning both dead and alive people. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
What is and what is not criminal varies widely. Maybe violent occupations, sex related occupations, etc? WAS 4.250 20:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
"For example, add only people convicted of a crime in a court of law to Category:Criminals, and make sure the conviction was not overturned on appeal." ...what, by bribing the judge? -- zippedmartin 14:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The lead now reads: All unourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page.
I would argue that this needs tightening. People may add such negative materials by citing sources that are not reliable, such as a a personal homepage, USENET or a discussion forum. The current wording needs to refer to the appropriate policies to avoid this. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I added a quote from Jimbo from WikiEN-L which makes the point quite forcefully. Just zis Guy you know? 09:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree with Jossi's revert of my edit. The guidelines have to give two limits, not just one, to the space dedicated to criticisms. Otherwise I think this guideline does not properly reflect the NPOV policy of undue weight.
Here was my version
And here is Jossi's version to which he and only he reverted repeatedly
See also Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons/archive1#Ways_to_assess_a_proportionate_fraction_of_criticism_and_controversy for an old inconclusive discussion about this between Jossi and me. Andries 16:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi. While reading the "Safe Harbor" section, I went to look up WP:CSD criteria A9 and couldn't find it. Eventually I discovered this edit, so I've edited this article accordingly. (BTW, A9 only existed for 9 hours!) Cheers, CWC (talk) 06:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I've created Template:blp, which says:
The template can be placed on the talk pages of biographies, so that new editors know what to do, and so that subjects of bigraphies can see what policies apply and who to contact if something goes wrong. I also thought we could add to the page a list of editors willing to help subjects sort out biography problems, so they don't have to contact the Foundation as a first step. Any thoughts about doing that? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that repeatedly putting back negative unsourced claims could be a blockable offense. My concern deals with how to express our policy to real world people that are not editors. -- FloNight talk 04:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
And there are different opinions among editors (and sometimes admin.) about whether the content is properly sourced! FloNight talk 04:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps there ought to be a template for the article itself as well? Living people with articles about them seem (from their statements in other media) to frequently arrive at Wikipedia with no idea how to use the site, and too upset to go through the documentation carefully, and they tend to either go away and say bad things about Wikipedia or mangle the article reporting what's wrong with it. Something like: "This article describes a living person. If you are this person and wish to provide corrections, please add to the discussion page". At least in the case of Jaron Lanier, his initial response was to add his discussion of the article to the article itself, where it was quickly removed (along with any changes to the actual article content he had made). I suspect that if there had been directions for him on a page he saw, he could have resolved the issues without the frustration. 66.92.72.41 15:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Currently we have:
Logically this shouldn't be limited to the article and talk page, it should apply anywhere. Whether in the AFD, user page, user talk page, project space, whatever. If it's not ok to say something on an article talk page, its likely not ok on a user page or user talk page (if the bio subject is named there). -- Rob 20:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Some advice please. There is a page about Z, the leader of a group. Editor A was a former member of Z's group and believes it is a cult. On the Z article talk page, A expressed his opinion that the "Z's group broke up my parent's marriage." Editor B, a current member of Z's group, removed the comment based on this policy. (I think that removal can be justified.) Would it be justified to remove the same comment from A's talk page discussion with editor C? (Neither A, B nor C are accusing others of violating WP:CIVIL, ie this is not part of a rant). Gimmetrow 17:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The following two sentences are in the text, and they confuse:
Could this be clarified?-- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Following up on Rossami's comment, this is my understanding:
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
In article Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, an editor has now removed twice {{fact}} tags I placed on negative views of this... unpopular... figure. His argument is that the info is sourced in the subarticle. Should I let it go, insist, delete the unsourced material? What do you all think? -- CTSWyneken 16:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure! my request for references, first revert, I restore request with further explanation, reverted a second time. I hope to get some clarification here if the folk working on the policy find references in a sub-article suffient, as far as WP:BLP is concerned. -- CTSWyneken 23:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Foo's personal website says that Mr. Foo did X. This fact is not published in any other reliable source. The counter-claim exists, but not in a reliable source that can be used in a wiki article. Perhaps it's in a blog (not reliable), perhaps Mr. Foo has even admitted the contrary in person or private letter (not verifiable), or in maybe the source doesn't fall under fair use for some reason. Is the statement that "Mr. Foo did X" allowable in the article? What about "Mr. Foo states that he did X"? What, if any, notice should be taken that this is disputed in sources wiki considers unreliable? The point of this is to explore the limitations currently listed for use of personal sites. Gimmetrow 17:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC) (edited 20:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC))
Gimmetrow, you are missing an important point. As Wikipedia editors it is not our job to determine the truth or decide which point of view is most valid. Because we take this position, it doesn't matter if a particular fact appears in an article or not if it is not verifiable, notable information that is supported by reliable sources. If something is disputed by a non-valid source, editors without a point of view about the topic are not too likely to care one way or the other if the information is left out of the article. It is possible that harm can come to a living person if someone plants false information about him or her. For that reason, we need to be careful about repeating information that conflicts with that reported by an individual in this situation. The best course of action might be leaving the information out completely until the conflict is cleared up.
Traditionally, individuals self-report their educational and employment history on CV's that they give to outside organizations. For that reason, it is unlikely to matter if their college graduation is self-reported on their web site vs. another organization's web site. If we are lucky, we can find CV's posted on an employer's web site or the person might have a profile available from a business or professional organization. Often these organizations require people to sign statements that the information is valid and sometimes it is validated. Since self reporting is the most common method of getting this type of information, if I saw a conflict between self reported information on an individual's web site and information in a published profile, I might carefully explore the matter by checking publications dates, looking for corrections, or looking for more published sources to double check the information. Unfortunately, it is possible that an "opponent" is knowingly exploiting an innocent publishing error or even planted the error in a borderline reliable source, like an interview with a reputable news organization. For this reason, like I said above, completely removing the information might be the most appropriate response if a living person complains about the information in an Wikipedia article or if there is a conflict that you have not completely resolved. FloNight talk 17:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello again Gimmetrow : - ) The term "self-serving statement" needs to be used with care. Remember that the real living people that we are talking about are much more than subjects of Wikipedia articles. It probably would never occur to them that someone would see the ordinary statements found on their web site as self serving. In the example I used above about the CV, many people would be insulted to have their CV labeled as a "self-serving statement." We need to be careful with the language we use. This something that experienced Wikipedia editors have learned over time and the reason that WP:BLP was written. A careful balancing act to make sure that the article is a balanced presentation of verifiable, notable information relevant per WP:BLP. Regards, FloNight talk 23:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The answer to that question, Gimmetrow, is well explained in the numerous examples and comments given by Slimvirgin, myself and others. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
FloNight's and Slim's responses have been helpful. I will think about the rest and move on to other things. Gimmetrow 03:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
G._Patrick_Maxwell
Talk:G._Patrick_Maxwell This policyguideline should apply. There is a contentious section, which depends upon a single, primary, source.
Midgley
01:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I have some concerns about this sentence: "Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from biographies of living persons and their talk pages, and may do so without discussion and without regard to the three-revert rule." First, just from a technical perspective, doesn't this mean that we have a guideline (BLP) trumping policy (3RR)? I understand that there is a push to make this policy but regardless of the merits, I would advocate taking out the invitation to violate 3RR until this is policy. Having said that, I think that it should not be policy, as it undermines the spirit of 3RR which is that if your reversion is proper, others will support it. What I find especially troublesome is the phrase "poorly sourced" as this is an invitation to POV, I think. If something is clearly defamatory -- well, let's say I restored the Siegenthaler article to its former horrid state, and continued to revert back to it. Would an individual editor need to violate 3RR to protect the article from me? I think what would happen is multiple editors would be elbowing each other out of the way to undo what I had done, and I would be swiftly blocked. Why is that not enough? Also: editors may make multiple “without discussion?” That seems utterly contrary to the spirit of WP. I would love to have everyone’s input. IronDuke 18:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
"Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from biographies of living persons and their talk pages, and may do so without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule."
The essential phrase "Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material" occurs twice in this article, and it's badly writen because it's not clear. Does it only refer to negative material? Or is unsourced material meant to be singled out whether negative or not? It can be read in two possible ways:
Editors should remove any unsourced (or poorly sourced negative) material
or
Editors should remove any (unsourced or poorly sourced) negative material
This issue has actually come up, in the context of bio of a living person in which some editors seem to think that so long as material is not negative, it really needs no good source. Thus, neutral "info" material or stuff they have from private emails, they believe is includable, simply because it's not libelous. I would argue that for non-famous persons, it's an invasion of privacy. See the Talk page for Houston McCoy for more. Steve 18:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's say there is an individual who has an article in Wikipedia but who has had very little media coverage and coverage has been primarily negative (say it dealt with his denying the holocaust occurred, allegations that he embezzeled funds from a political party and numerous charities in 1988 and then again in 1994 and 2002, and his participation in starting a soup kitchen in 1996 but that he had to leave due to an allegation of misappropriation of funds. He was only convicted once in 1994). Let's say this individual has a website in which he denies the negative media allegations and claims that the media is against him due to his personal political view that President Bush is controlled by the Israeli state. No media outlet has ever published or mentioned the individual's thoughts on this subject. The individual would like the Wikipedia article on himself to expound on his political theory because he feels that is what he is known for. Further, he objects to the inclusion of the negative material since he feels it is his politcial theory that he is known for. Should the article be primarily about his political theory since his website serves him as a verifiable resource? Bernie Radecki 22:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)