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How do we get some of the experts here to take a look at an article that a) some have wondered if it's even notable and b) has some potential violations of the BLP policy? The article is Barbara Schwarz and I only found out about it because someone alerted us to this problem over at WP:WPBIO... plange 02:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Just got another alert from someone about Fred Phelps which has now moved to FARC plange 22:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Over at the Talk:George W. Bush page, a bit of discussion evolved regarding how this policy seems to imply that any poorly sourced or unsourced negative material about a living person must be deleted on sight, but the same isn't true for poorly sourced or unsourced positive material. This implication leads to contradictions with WP:V and WP:NPOV, so I'm thinking that we should put something into this article clarifying it. Perhaps another paragraph stating something along the lines of, "This policy is not an excuse to delete poorly sourced negative material about a living person while not similarly deleting poorly sourced positive material." --- DrLeebot 12:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Assuming you really believe in uniform standards, I'll be deleting loads of stuff from the Bush article.... 24.59.105.229 12:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi.
A weird question, and possibly not completely related to this particular topic, but nevertheless prompted by it: You say that any sort of "unsourced" or "poorly sourced" "negative" (or ANY "speculative" unsourced articles regardless of topic (!)) articles about living people with no NPOV version must be deleted immediately by an administrator. The question is: what if I wrote such an article, it gets deleted (and protected), then I remake it under a slightly different title to defeat the protection, only this time citing reliable, verifiable sources, and it's from a neutral point of view (instead of just negative-only "bash 'em" comments)? What would you do? 70.101.145.181 08:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Seems that Striver ( talk · contribs) is arguing that labeling people as "conspiracy theorists" is pejorative, and such labels (if uncited) violate the WP:LIVING policy. See [1], [2] and the discussion here [3]. Thoughts? Not a dog 11:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
On the narrow point, Striver is certainly correct. "Conspiracy theorist" is without question a pejorative term. Unless the characterization is essentially a universal consensus, it doesn't belong in the lead (and there are enough of the "9/11 conspiracy" folks that no such consensus against them exists... as nutty as I find them personally). The correct way to handle such a thing is to find an actual reputable citation of some other person calling the bio'd figure a "conspiracy theorist", and generally defer that until after the lead. So, e.g.:
Jane Jones is professor of such-and-such, and a prominent advocate of the position that John F. Kennedy was assasinated by extraterrestrials. [...after lead...] According to Sally Simmons, "Jones' book is rampant conspiracy theory" (Simmons, 1989).
It should not be WP editorial position to characterize anyone in such a pejorative term (no matter how accurate), but presenting outside characterization is OK. LotLE× talk 15:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Steven E. Jones is a good working example of this. Review the recent editing history--should the conspiracy theorist phrase be in the lead, and is the sourcing appropriate? rootology ( T) 16:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we should work on a simpler question: if a negative item isn't the ONLY thing they're known for--for example, John Wayne Gacy is only known for being a serial killer, really, so that should go in the lead--should anything with a negative tone, connotation, or implication go into the lead section? I say no. John Wayne Gacy "was an American serial killer" is the first sentence--he's known for that alone. For other people, I feel that anything "negative" shouldn't go in the lead. rootology ( T) 02:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
24.59.105.229 12:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
So, now that it is established that "conspiracy theorist" is pekorative, per Justforasecond, then it should be clear that wikipedia will not endorse the pejorative term per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons: "The responsibility for justifying controversial claims in Wikipedia, of all kinds, but especially for living people's bios, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim.".
With that establieshed, we can conclude that we can only say "x says y is a conspiracy theorist". Next question is wether that should be in the lead, ie if having "x says y is a conspiracy theorist", and is unecesary when it can be expresed in a more neutral way, without citing anyone, per "y belives that".
Next, regarding Category:Conspiracy theorists. It is clear that living persons can not be included in it, since it would imply an endorsment from Wikipedia, rather than the reporting of somebody else opinion, per the above quote. And that is a no-no.
And Murderer = Conspiracy Theorist is not a good example, since one can be convicted of murder, and hence becoming an established legal fact, while being a Conspiracy Theorist can never ever be NPOV. Let me loosly quote something: "Pakistanis that believe news reports that Arabs carried out Sept. 11 attacks - True: 4%, Not true: 86%, Dont know: 10%" [5].
Are we done here? Can we have a template that illustates this and unprotect the Alex Jones (radio) article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Striver ( talk • contribs)
"Members of the group don't consider themselves extremists. " [7]. That should be enough.-- Striver 17:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree that conspiracy theory or conspiracy theorist is necessarily pejorative. It is entirely appropriate to observe that Alex Jones is, and Milton Willam Cooper was, a conspiracy theorist. Tom Harrison Talk 17:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
If the label is properly sourced, then what's the issue? Some people are conspiracy theorists, and it's not libellous to say so. Jayjg (talk) 21:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
From Conspiracy theory:
Are we going to label people with something that the ARTICLE ITSELF says is controversial? How is that NOT a violation of wikipolicies? -- Striver 22:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Again: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons:
From rereading all this, the problem I'm having more and more with this now is the implication that immediately labeling them as a "conspiracy theorist" is the negative connotation of this, and the tone that it "discredits" any credibility the subject might have. For the people that have worked under these articles, you KNOW that before yesterday I never once removed this lable from an article, but after thinking more and more about this information, and this policy, it began to strike as not appropriate to carry this in the lead, as a statement of Fact from us. Saying in a later passage--but not the lead--that "such and such" considers Mr. XYZ a conspiracy theorist would be acceptable, but for us to make the statement is too much. rootology ( T) 22:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
In fact, wikipedia RIGHT NOW is using the false "Alex linked to it, that means endorsment" to label him a conspiracy theoris in a PROTECTED version. And what is the source? The Raw Story! Is that RS? Is that the way to VIOLATE this very policy? -- Striver 23:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
btw, here is how Al-Jazeera presents him: "Alex Jones, a syndicated radio talkshow host, told a news conference"-- Striver 23:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
And that is endorsment? I TOLD YOU, he does that with ALL articles on his site, not that you seem to know it. -- Striver 23:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Here, he does not belive Iran will attack Israel, it has no motive, but it has still copied this article: [12]. GET IT STRAIGHT: Alex Jones copying material for his site does NOT mean that he endorses the material. -- Striver 23:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I need to go to work, but i fond this on a quick search:
It is clear that the people in the 9/11 Truth Movement reject being called that. And it is a blatant violation of wikipedia'a principles, this very one, to label them what they have rejected. I remeber Jones having rejected the label on audio, but i do not know in what of the thousands of minutes of audio i heard that. Maybe it was in a Charlie Sheen interivew-- Striver 08:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
IMHO there are no Conspiracy theorists or Pseudoscientists, only people advancing (among doing other things in their life) Conspiracy theories or Pseudoscience. Please compare Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of pseudoscientists. If persons are notable (which implies the existence if reliable sources) for advancing Conspiracy theories or Pseudoscience, by all means this have to be included in the biography, but watch your wording. -- Pjacobi 07:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Illegal immigration is a government plot. The counterculture is a government plot. Vaccines are a government plot. Thumb scanning is a government plot. Environmentalism is a government plot. The National Seatbelt Initiative is a government plot. Feminism is a government plot. Toll roads are a government plot. Antidepressants are a government plot. Etc etc etc etc. Yeah, I'd go with "conspiracy theorist". If one of his theories is taught in one country as reality for political reasons that doesn't change how he makes his living. Weregerbil 08:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Guys, look, the alternative is having this: "His brother Steve Watson [2] is also a conspiracy theorist.". Is that really where we want to be? What is the point of this policy? -- Striver 11:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't there a section on a policy for any kind of portrait (photo, or other image or picture such as a drawing) of the biographed person?-- AlainV 18:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
What was the reason/purpose for this change? rootology ( T) 14:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I notice that this article was originally created on 12/17/2005, promoted to a guideline on 1/27/2006, and promoted to a policy on 7/18/2006. Where can I review the discussions that led to consensus of elevating this proposal to a guideline and then a policy? - O^O 17:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
As a "notable" individual myself, I often find myself meeting other notable individuals in various venues -- in a green room while we're waiting for an interview, in a a "speaker's lounge" at a convention, bumping into other authors at a major booksigning event, etc. When I chat with them, the subject of Wikipedia often comes up, since it's one of my favorite hobbies. Sometimes the people that I talk to complain about an inaccuracy in their bio, in which case I of course volunteer to fix/remove it (especially if it's unsourced negative info). I also routinely volunteer to expand simple biographical details to improve the article, such as high school attended, parents' occupations, place of birth, etc. In those cases, should I list the subject in the "Sources" section, such as, "Some information provided by subject, and transcribed by <name>"? Or, in those cases where the subject is himself or herself web-savvy enough to change their own bio (and yes, I make sure to tell them about WP:AUTO), should they list themselves in the "Sources" section? Has there been any discussion about the best way to handle these cases? -- Elonka 17:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I will quote the current page "In some cases the subject may become involved in an article. They may edit it themselves or have a representative of theirs edit it. They may contact Wikipedians either through the article's talk page or via email. Or, they may provide information through press releases, a personal website or blog, or an autobiography.
Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if: ... It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject; "
Now since any mention of any other person, spouse, parents, children, employers, friends, etc are "claims about third parties", then by this rule, they may not be included on the subject's page, through using material or communications provided by the subject themselves.
Personally I think this wording is far too restrictive, but that is what it currently states. Wjhonson 20:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
What if the source cited for some fairly private information is an email sent to the subjects fans? This is not entirely hypothetical [18], though in this case I suspect another source could be found. - MrFizyx 17:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I find it curious the new caveat about living persons refers to "libellous" statements. The standard spelling of "libelous" has one 'l' not two. Curious how someone who seeks to impose a common standard uses the uncommon spelling. While it's not incorrect to spell it "libellous," that's by far the minority spelling, per OED and numerous other standard dictionaries. -- 207.69.139.10 05:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I have raised this here before, but there continue to be daily misinterpretations of WP:BLP throughout the articles related to Hugo Chávez. I am hoping that regulars here will review this situation, and make comments, or discuss whether the wording on BLP can be improved to help avoid this abusive misinterpretation of BLP. Sandy 20:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see something stronger against including negative material just because it's well-sourced. The Malicious editing section now says in part:
The "published sources" part is working well, but the "demonstration of relevance" part isn't.
The article on Ann Coulter, for example, is full of well-sourced negative comments, interview snippets, etc. that aren't individually relevant to her notability, though she IS notable for her outspokenness. Sometimes these individually non-notable items become so numerous that special sections are created for specific categories. Usually they are appended to factual encyclopedic material, as if to show what a bad person she is. (See "Radio" HERE.)
It seems to me that mentioning such a person's outspoken nature, and possibly providing an example or two in connection with that mention, should be enough for any encyclopedia. As it is, some (IMHO malicious) editors gleefully include negative after negative after negative, all of them with sources. (The unsourced ones are quickly weeded out, thank Jimbo.) I'm not sure that including such stuff contributes to encyclopedic excellence. Lou Sander 13:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
than a few examples are warranted, though preferably the most 'newsworthy' or widely reported examples should be kept. 24.59.105.229 12:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:BLP states "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule." So, in removing such material from talk pages, the result is a hole in the discussion and can lead to misunderstandings due to lack of context. Is there a tag we can use to replace such comments that are removed to indicate to other editors/readers that something has been removed in accordance with WP:BLP? -- HResearcher 02:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This policy currently states "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule. This principle also applies to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia. Administrators may enforce the removal of unsourced material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked."( as of 21:15, 5 June 2006) My suggestion is that this point be amended to include original research on talk pages. The result would be something like this: "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule. This principle also applies to biographical material and original research about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia. Administrators may enforce the removal of unsourced material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked." (emphasis added to indicate proposed amendment.) -- HResearcher 11:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so JzG cautiously supports this. Anyone else have comments about this proposal? -- HResearcher 03:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
When a bio article contains a source, is it also necessary to cite that source in other articles where the subject is mentioned with a wikilink back to the bio, or is it acceptable to rely on the reader to follow the link back to the bio? I am having issues with Jeff Gannon being called a prostitute in various articles. An admin is pushing back, and I am not sure of this particular requirement. (I am also not fully comfortable with the sources in the Jeff Gannon article "proving" that he is a prostitute, but that is another issue). I would appreciate someone with more experience with BLP to take a look at Jeff Gannon, and the articles that link to it. Crockspot 12:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
What I remember is that Jeff Gannon created a website and published his picture on it with invitations to pay him money for gay sex and was paid by the Bush administration to plant friendly questions at white house press briefings. The same anti-gay Bush administration that now says it has a problem with leftists manipulating the press. This is not a minor figure who deserves his privacy, but a paid political operative whose illegalities are important to the discussion of political power in the US. WAS 4.250 23:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Essentially, this policy is a clarification of NPOV and verifiability: to be absolutely hardarsed about them. Everything else follows from there. To that end I've cut down the nutshell a bit. Sensitivity is not part of the original intent of the policy, but neutrality and a remarkably high standard of verifiability are, for example. Further ideas on cutting it down are welcomed. There is no point duplicating the guideline in the nutshell - David Gerard 13:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
24.59.105.229 12:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) I agree that above all, we should be sure that WP itself does not harm the living subject. I think that if all we do is summarize verifiable and reliable secondary sources then the added effect of the publication in WP would be small. Ideally WP itself should have a very low profile - simply collecting and presenting publicly available and reliable information from secondary sources. And certainly the presentation has to remain neutral at all times. Crum375 16:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
There is an explicit moral problem in posting information about a person on Wikipedia which they do not want to be posted there (for whatever reason). This is not treating others as you would want to be treated, or as you'd like your family or loved ones to be treated-- in such cases Wikipedia is THEREFORE acting in a way which is explicitly aggressive and aggravating. Give up the golden rule and that's what you get, so you'd better have a overwhelming social reason for it, like survival or security. I fail to see such a principle operating here.
Finally, let me point out that entry of Wikipedia information involves impact. It does involve a loss of privacy because Wikipedia entries are more easily available to search engines that most (almost all) secondary sources. Putting something on Wikipedia DOES make it more public, almost no matter how public it was, before the fact. Even if it was on the Five O'Clock News, the Five O'Clock News is an hour and Wikipedia is (no doubt, in some form or another) forever. At the end of this process, without guidance from the Bio subject, we thus have Wikipedia used as an amplifier for what may have been a questionable moral tradeoff decision (between notability and privacy) to begin with.
All of which is not helped in the least by the fact that the very creation of a Wiki bio on a person increases their "notability" and "public presence" far more than a full page article in their local paper ever can or will. Something these discussions have been reluctant to admit as a "given." Mostly I see Wikipedia treated as though it wasn't Major Media itself, but merely an unimportant mirror or piece of glass, with no effect on that which it is exposing or reflecting. Wrong. Wikipedia gives to anonymous persons the kind of power previously available only to editors of major newspapers.
In a nutshell, this whole process is bound to stink when applied to biography of living persons, without saving input and editorial management from the people who will otherwise be the targets of victims of it. Which, so far, we simply do not have. S B H arris 19:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
David Gerard said "Sensitivity is not part of the original intent of the policy". That is in fact the exact opposite of the truth. When I created the first edit of the proposal that became the guideline that became the policy, its entire content was to be sentitive on articles about living people with the context of that being a very (and still) angry object of a bio that objected to what he perceived as an invasion of his privacy as a nonnoteable (legally speaking according to Florida privacy laws he said) private person and he did not want to be converted into a public person with fewer legal rights concerning his privacy. The meaning of "sensitivity" is not omit negative information but instead involves enhanced awareness such as the enhanced awareness you have in the more sensitive parts of your body. The use of the word "sensitivity" is a dircet quote from the man asking for a little as he was a living person. WAS 4.250 23:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I seem to remember seeing somewhere a page for alerts about possible violations of this policy. Am I imagining this, or does such a page exist, and if so, where?
For what it's worth, my specific concern is the continuous insertion of critical material from poor sources (newspaper editorials and a lobby group, in particular) into the Rashid Khalidi article, along with highly-POV commentary by the person inserting them. Palmiro | Talk 20:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems will be that admins need to be all on the same page about what is proper sourcing for BLPs. I am in a dispute with an admin over just this issue. I don't believe the sources support the negative claims in a particular article, and an admin disagrees with me, and keeps reinserting the offending statements. An AMA advocate is looking at the issue for me, and is tending to agree that my interpretation is correct. I already thought the BLP rules were clear, but apparently they are not clear enough for this particular admin. Perhaps a tutorial program for the admins that will be watching this board? Crockspot 16:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
What gibbering idiocy is this? If we don't have verifiable source of such, it shouldn't go in at all; if we do have a verifiable source of such then so does everyone else. Who thought this particularly inane piece of instruction creep from Hell was in any way sensible? And can they convince me they weren't just trolling, because that's certainly the most charitable assumption? - David Gerard 06:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I hear Jimbo's daughter has been a victim of privacy invasion. And Jimbo has been caught repeatedly buffing his own Bio, and merely confesses and says he's sorry. Anything to keep from admiting that he was WRONG and this was a BAD idea to begin with! Sheesh! S B H arris 00:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It's just part of a key to things about a person's history which may be "public" but only in the very narrow sense that they may exist in some public form, like an old CV posted on the web, or somebody's opinions on a TALK page, and the personal info from somebody's yearbooks from libraries someplace. Add to this long forgotten newstuff, public records of various types (difficult but not impossible to get if you have money and time), and a fairly thorough biography can be created on anybody, as you well know from being a geneologist. A bio just waiting to bite you from wikipedia the moment you do anything "notable" (whatever that is). And one which can be used for malicious purposes if you have the bad luck to run afoul of a malicious person. All this is not a good thing.
Let me add another problem, which is that the idea that WP:NOR protects somebody from putting all this stuff together. It doesn't. All original article writing represents new synthesis of information, just from the act of choosing sources and which sentence to put ahead of another. If it wasn't original synthesis, it would be plagiarism, so you pick. It's one or the other. I don't want to see it done on Wikipedia for living people who object to it. ONCE AGAIN, let me strongly remind everybody that PUBLIC isn't a binary thing, so that all information is either PUBLIC or NOT PUBLIC. A great deal of information is "public" only by virtue of being hidden in plain sight in some obscure place, awaiting a good deal of time, work, money, sweat, and some intelligence to dig it out and associate it with other information. We don't need Wikipedia, at the end of a 2 second Google Search to be the end result and repository of that process. So I urge you to do what you can to stop it. S B H arris 18:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I could not have put it better myself. Basically the point is that, indeed, if you really want to gather information about somebody, you can often do so (look up records in city halls or courthouses, do "freedom of information" requests, do many Google searches, etc.); it tends to take time and resources, and this is why people seldom do it unless they have real grudges and resources to spare.
Wikipedia, on the other hand, is a high traffic site highly ranked in Google. This means that people who otherwise may have to sleuth quite a bit before doing bad things would just have to do a 2-second Google search.
Now, it is a fact that banks and other businesses often consider that if you know someone's date of birth, mother's maiden name, name of children, then you probably are that person. Perhaps this is stupid, but that's how things are.
We should therefore not store information that has little encyclopedic value but high potential for trouble. David.Monniaux 21:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'm copying and pasting what I said on the tak page for Kari Wahlgren, a voice actress who recently requested that her birthday information be taken down. The month and day were taken down, but that doesn't really address HER problem with her birth year being put up--her age. She's what I think is considered a "non-notable public figure." Yes, to some people she is notable, but she's no Angelina Jolie or Barbara Walters--she's not a household name, nor is her age something she (and many other non-notable actors) want known! In the case of actors and actresses trying to make a name, career, or even living for themselves, having their age revealed can be limiting their careers. Producers and directors may claim to practice blind casting, but lets face it, as soon as they know someones actual age, they start restricting themselves. A lot of actors would prefer their ages not be revealed because of the reprecussions, and I'm sure Kari is just one of those. Sure, people should be able to know the "Encyclopedic facts" but is it REALLY that important? If you're a fan of someone, shouldn't your ultimate goal as his or her fan be their success as an actor or actress--or their ability to put food on the table? If that's not reasonable, I don't know what is. My thought is that in cases like this, if the subject requests their age being removed, it should be for their protection, the protection of their career, that we oblige. It might sate someones curiosity, and yes, to the technologically inclined who know where to find the information or are willing to pay for the information, you can find it, but is it really worth sacrificing potential career roles/moves to make a handful of people happy that they know? Besides, some fansites who may respect the subjects wishes may have their birth day (month and day) posted but not the year, and the combination of that information and the year being available defeats the whole purpose of "year but not month and day" that's listed as policy in Ms. Wahlgren's Talk page. Just a Fan 21:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
At the head of the new anti-Semitism article is an image ... Nowhere in the article is there text saying who's claiming that the image is anti-Semitic (only linked references to fairly respectable blogs connected to news sources). In this light it is arguable that Wikipedia itself is saying that the image is anti-Semitic (particularly given the image's file name Image:NewASAnti-Semiticposter.jpg). Does Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy apply in this type of case? Thanks. ( → Netscott) 11:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Netscott was the person who on labelling the image as "Anti-Semitic", against the strong objections of other editors. Now that he's gotten his way, he's insisting it be deleted based on WP:BLP. This is the third grounds on which he's tried to have the image, and arguably the most duplicitous. This disruption must stop. Jayjg (talk) 00:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Ideally who the artist is, who the organizer of the event the image is associated with (two sources are saying A.N.S.W.E.R.) and who is saying it is an example of new anti-Semitism should be readlily available to the reader. In particular who is saying the image is anti-Semitic should be included so that the article doesn't fall afoul of WP:BLP relative to the artist. ( → Netscott) 02:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the Malicious Editing section should also address edits like this:
The stuff after the first reference is speculation by the editor. I'm new here, but it seems pretty malicious to me. (The full text original is here, its current version is here). Lou Sander 12:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
The edit should simply read "b 26 Jul 1945 (State of xxx, Driver Records) or b 14 Nov 1947 (County of xxx, Voter Records)" with no further comment. Wjhonson 14:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with both of you, but the authors of the speculation don't. In good faith, they think they're doing the world a favor (not only in my example, but in all the others). It might be helpful to somehow add this kind of thing to the Malicious Editing section, which covers only sourcing and notability. Maybe it should mention malicious original research as well. (I'm thinking that this speculation is OR, but I'm fuzzy on it). Lou Sander 14:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
The way
Lou Sander's tells it I would come to that conclusion too. He makes it sound like original research with no objective other than to pointlessly insult. He leaves out the source and context as stated in the article: "
Coulter has refused to address this disparity, pointed out most notably by Al Franken, a rival pundit who brought up the disparity in his book, Lies & The Lying Liars Who Tell Them." Ann's history of being a liar is a credibility issue that is important with a pundit. She writes and sells books that tell us who to chose as the most powerful person on the planet. Whether or not she is a liar is relevant.
WAS 4.250 14:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Some biographical entries contain documentation on family members (first names, religious affiliation, etc.), even though these members are not public personalities. I suggest these should be systematically dropped. Family members of public personalities who are not themselves public personalities have a right to privacy; besides, such content is not encyclopedic, and may create real problems to those involved (such as facilitating harassment). Just because, say, your brother is a controversial politician, you should not have to endure the harassment of those who dislike the guy. David.Monniaux 14:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
For instance: some article about some personality who had a bad divorce mentioned that personality's children by name, and the first name being uncommon, anybody interacting with that person may get details about her family by a simple Google research. I think this definitely infringes on that person's privacy, while this does not bring any actual encyclopedic content. David.Monniaux 15:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd say the names of a person's parents and children are a rather important part of that person's biography. AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
We all know that "case by case" sounds good and reasonable in most cases and at a first thought here as well but it is not in this case out of simple reasons:
So do not decide on a case by case basis if certain privacy related information of minor important people needs to be deleted but decide on a case by case basis if you add it. In general the "family" section of a famous person whose family is not famous should contain the facts that he/she is married/divorced/whatever and has/hasn't one/two/three/whatever-number doughter/son but not the names and other highly indentifying information. Arnomane 21:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
A while back the privacy of Jimmy Wales' daughter was violated on wikipedia. Be aware of a certain sensitivity some might have on making light of privacy needs of nonnotable people. Deleting addresses, phone numbers, birthdays, social security numbers, auto license information, etc might seem "paranoid" but it is not. WAS 4.250 13:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there such a thing? I would be willing to become involved with such a task force. Such a group, along with an alert/request page, could really clamp down on the problems. As far as I can tell, there is no such group. This issue is too important to WP's legal well-being to not have a group that specifically deals with these problems directly. Crockspot 15:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography ?? Should a link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography be somewhere near the top of this page?? WAS 4.250 15:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
To whom do I turn for help on a page that contains possibly libelous material? Unverified personal accounts being taken as fact, factual events being misconstrued, etc. I've tried to edit the material out, but the page maker keeps putting it back. Thanks. Steviegee 16:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It'd be good to provide a link to the noticeboard via the BLP template so that editors who are in doubt or having difficulty with other editors can have a place to go. I invite other editors to join the discussion about this idea. Thanks. ( → Netscott) 22:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
On bios of scientists, some editors count number of citations toward assessing "Notability". Using citations on (say} Google scholar as a count is subject to gross artefacts.
E.g., unless both papers are actually posted as a journal article on the net (Science only does this back too about 1996), most cross-cites do not get picked up. A better count is derived by using "related articles" on http://pubmed.gov as a proxy or using citation index. E.g. Pubmed cites 96 articles related to a 1974 paper in Science, showing the first molecular electronic device. But, only a handful show up on a "Google Scholar" search.
An illustrative counter-example is the journal Stroke, where, unlike Science, full text articles back to the 1970's have been posted. With such articles, the number of citations showing on-line reasonably corresponds to "related articles" on Pubmed.gov.
E.g., for this this 1970's paper in Stroke, Google Scholar lists 100 citing articles. while Pubmed lists 89 associated articles. Not too far off, considering all the variables. Pproctor 00:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
At
Talk:List of famous prostitutes and courtesans#Alleged male prostitutes,
User:Crockspot and I are having a disagreement about the threshold of reliability required by WP:BLP. If I understand him correctly, he is saying that
1. Regardless of the caliber of a source, there must be multiple independent sources.
2. Those sources must not have any axe to grind.
And perhaps he is claiming something even more restrictive than that, which I'm not quite picking up.
I find the second requirement a bit troubling, because it is hard to say who does and does not have an axe to grind. In this case, the two sources I provided, which were rejected as inadequate, were:
Since then another editor has found two articles from the Washington Post asserting, respectively, that the individual's "naked pictures have appeared on a number of gay escort sites" and that he "was offering his escort services for $200 an hour, or $1,200 a weekend".
So, if these don't add up to enough, I'm a bit bewildered. Is Crockspot correctly interpreting this rule? If so, I believe we have an enormous amount of material about living people that does not meet this level of citation, probably the bulk of it. - Jmabel | Talk 00:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be good to have a template with a message specifically for violations of this policy. I just reverted a large unsourced and highly POV edit, and was looking for a template to place on the offending user's talk page. The closest thing I could find is a general NPOV message, but I think it would be useful to stress the higher degree of importance on strict adherence to the NPOV policy required for BLPs. I would do it myself if I knew anything about making a template. Dansiman 02:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
You have made an edit that could be regarded as defamatory. Please do not restore this material to the article or its talk page. If you do, you may be blocked for disruption. See the blocking policy.
You have made an edit that could be regarded as defamatory. Please do not restore this material to the article or its talk page. If you restore this material to the article or its talk page once more, you will be blocked for disruption. See Blocking policy: Biographies of living people.
{{
unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
. However, you should read the
guide to appealing blocks first. -- FloNight 02:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this has been asked here before, so here I go: Unsourced negative material about a living person should be removed on sight. I don't have a problem with that. What I've seen since this became a policy tho was that admins not only removed negative material, but also deleted the correspondent edits, citing this policy. Am I missing a good reason why deleting negative material is better than just removing it? The only thing I can think of are people wanting negative material about them deleted, even from the history, but this was not the case in the situations I've witnessed. I don't really like the direction this is going. We should only delete edits when there is a really good reason to, not just because they contain something negative about someone. So, why is deleting better than removing? -- Conti| ✉ 00:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Biographies of Living Persons WP:BLP requires a higher wikipedia standard since the Siegenthaler Controversy in December 2005. Articles like these involve WP:LIBEL and WP:NPOV It has been 6 months, and wikipedia still has hundreds of potentially libelious articles.
Many editors and even administrators are generally unaware of potential defamation either direct or via WP:NPOV. To help protect wikipedia, I feel a large working group of historians, lawyers, journalists, administrators and everyday editors is needed to rapidly enforce policies.
Concerned editors are invitedto join and particpate in a new working group, tenatively named Wikipedia:Libel-Protection Unit, a group devoted to WP:BLP, WP:LIBEL and WP:NPOV and active enforcement. Some of you are being personally invited via individual talk pages, please do not interpret not receiving one as an intentional exclusion! I look forward to seeing you there. Electrawn 16:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I've read through the various articles and am still unsure what rules apply to photos of political figures, especially those who don't have government photos of them. I'm more than willing to e-mail them for permission to use a photo or requesting a photo, but want to be sure I'll be doing everything right. -- Tim4christ17 17:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I do some work for one of the Washington Post companies. They required me to take a short interactive course on avoiding behavior that could lead to sexual harrassment claims. There was some online study material that included a number of examples, and a quiz before and after to measure how much I knew and had learned. Now that I've taken the course, the Post and I are both a bit better off.
It occurs to me that we might benefit from such a little course about BLP policies. It wouldn't have to be interactive, and if it included a quiz, editors could score it themselves.
Such a thing could be helpful to good faith editors who want to be sure their BLP work is in keeping with policy. Editors who seem not to follow policy could gently be advised to take the course. Nobody would need to know who took the course, did the quiz, or even looked at any of it.
If there's interest in the idea, I'd be happy to come up with a draft. Look HERE for a simple example. Lou Sander 20:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
How do we get some of the experts here to take a look at an article that a) some have wondered if it's even notable and b) has some potential violations of the BLP policy? The article is Barbara Schwarz and I only found out about it because someone alerted us to this problem over at WP:WPBIO... plange 02:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Just got another alert from someone about Fred Phelps which has now moved to FARC plange 22:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Over at the Talk:George W. Bush page, a bit of discussion evolved regarding how this policy seems to imply that any poorly sourced or unsourced negative material about a living person must be deleted on sight, but the same isn't true for poorly sourced or unsourced positive material. This implication leads to contradictions with WP:V and WP:NPOV, so I'm thinking that we should put something into this article clarifying it. Perhaps another paragraph stating something along the lines of, "This policy is not an excuse to delete poorly sourced negative material about a living person while not similarly deleting poorly sourced positive material." --- DrLeebot 12:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Assuming you really believe in uniform standards, I'll be deleting loads of stuff from the Bush article.... 24.59.105.229 12:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi.
A weird question, and possibly not completely related to this particular topic, but nevertheless prompted by it: You say that any sort of "unsourced" or "poorly sourced" "negative" (or ANY "speculative" unsourced articles regardless of topic (!)) articles about living people with no NPOV version must be deleted immediately by an administrator. The question is: what if I wrote such an article, it gets deleted (and protected), then I remake it under a slightly different title to defeat the protection, only this time citing reliable, verifiable sources, and it's from a neutral point of view (instead of just negative-only "bash 'em" comments)? What would you do? 70.101.145.181 08:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Seems that Striver ( talk · contribs) is arguing that labeling people as "conspiracy theorists" is pejorative, and such labels (if uncited) violate the WP:LIVING policy. See [1], [2] and the discussion here [3]. Thoughts? Not a dog 11:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
On the narrow point, Striver is certainly correct. "Conspiracy theorist" is without question a pejorative term. Unless the characterization is essentially a universal consensus, it doesn't belong in the lead (and there are enough of the "9/11 conspiracy" folks that no such consensus against them exists... as nutty as I find them personally). The correct way to handle such a thing is to find an actual reputable citation of some other person calling the bio'd figure a "conspiracy theorist", and generally defer that until after the lead. So, e.g.:
Jane Jones is professor of such-and-such, and a prominent advocate of the position that John F. Kennedy was assasinated by extraterrestrials. [...after lead...] According to Sally Simmons, "Jones' book is rampant conspiracy theory" (Simmons, 1989).
It should not be WP editorial position to characterize anyone in such a pejorative term (no matter how accurate), but presenting outside characterization is OK. LotLE× talk 15:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Steven E. Jones is a good working example of this. Review the recent editing history--should the conspiracy theorist phrase be in the lead, and is the sourcing appropriate? rootology ( T) 16:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps we should work on a simpler question: if a negative item isn't the ONLY thing they're known for--for example, John Wayne Gacy is only known for being a serial killer, really, so that should go in the lead--should anything with a negative tone, connotation, or implication go into the lead section? I say no. John Wayne Gacy "was an American serial killer" is the first sentence--he's known for that alone. For other people, I feel that anything "negative" shouldn't go in the lead. rootology ( T) 02:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
24.59.105.229 12:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
So, now that it is established that "conspiracy theorist" is pekorative, per Justforasecond, then it should be clear that wikipedia will not endorse the pejorative term per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons: "The responsibility for justifying controversial claims in Wikipedia, of all kinds, but especially for living people's bios, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim.".
With that establieshed, we can conclude that we can only say "x says y is a conspiracy theorist". Next question is wether that should be in the lead, ie if having "x says y is a conspiracy theorist", and is unecesary when it can be expresed in a more neutral way, without citing anyone, per "y belives that".
Next, regarding Category:Conspiracy theorists. It is clear that living persons can not be included in it, since it would imply an endorsment from Wikipedia, rather than the reporting of somebody else opinion, per the above quote. And that is a no-no.
And Murderer = Conspiracy Theorist is not a good example, since one can be convicted of murder, and hence becoming an established legal fact, while being a Conspiracy Theorist can never ever be NPOV. Let me loosly quote something: "Pakistanis that believe news reports that Arabs carried out Sept. 11 attacks - True: 4%, Not true: 86%, Dont know: 10%" [5].
Are we done here? Can we have a template that illustates this and unprotect the Alex Jones (radio) article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Striver ( talk • contribs)
"Members of the group don't consider themselves extremists. " [7]. That should be enough.-- Striver 17:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree that conspiracy theory or conspiracy theorist is necessarily pejorative. It is entirely appropriate to observe that Alex Jones is, and Milton Willam Cooper was, a conspiracy theorist. Tom Harrison Talk 17:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
If the label is properly sourced, then what's the issue? Some people are conspiracy theorists, and it's not libellous to say so. Jayjg (talk) 21:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
From Conspiracy theory:
Are we going to label people with something that the ARTICLE ITSELF says is controversial? How is that NOT a violation of wikipolicies? -- Striver 22:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Again: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons:
From rereading all this, the problem I'm having more and more with this now is the implication that immediately labeling them as a "conspiracy theorist" is the negative connotation of this, and the tone that it "discredits" any credibility the subject might have. For the people that have worked under these articles, you KNOW that before yesterday I never once removed this lable from an article, but after thinking more and more about this information, and this policy, it began to strike as not appropriate to carry this in the lead, as a statement of Fact from us. Saying in a later passage--but not the lead--that "such and such" considers Mr. XYZ a conspiracy theorist would be acceptable, but for us to make the statement is too much. rootology ( T) 22:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
In fact, wikipedia RIGHT NOW is using the false "Alex linked to it, that means endorsment" to label him a conspiracy theoris in a PROTECTED version. And what is the source? The Raw Story! Is that RS? Is that the way to VIOLATE this very policy? -- Striver 23:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
btw, here is how Al-Jazeera presents him: "Alex Jones, a syndicated radio talkshow host, told a news conference"-- Striver 23:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
And that is endorsment? I TOLD YOU, he does that with ALL articles on his site, not that you seem to know it. -- Striver 23:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Here, he does not belive Iran will attack Israel, it has no motive, but it has still copied this article: [12]. GET IT STRAIGHT: Alex Jones copying material for his site does NOT mean that he endorses the material. -- Striver 23:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I need to go to work, but i fond this on a quick search:
It is clear that the people in the 9/11 Truth Movement reject being called that. And it is a blatant violation of wikipedia'a principles, this very one, to label them what they have rejected. I remeber Jones having rejected the label on audio, but i do not know in what of the thousands of minutes of audio i heard that. Maybe it was in a Charlie Sheen interivew-- Striver 08:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
IMHO there are no Conspiracy theorists or Pseudoscientists, only people advancing (among doing other things in their life) Conspiracy theories or Pseudoscience. Please compare Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of pseudoscientists. If persons are notable (which implies the existence if reliable sources) for advancing Conspiracy theories or Pseudoscience, by all means this have to be included in the biography, but watch your wording. -- Pjacobi 07:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Illegal immigration is a government plot. The counterculture is a government plot. Vaccines are a government plot. Thumb scanning is a government plot. Environmentalism is a government plot. The National Seatbelt Initiative is a government plot. Feminism is a government plot. Toll roads are a government plot. Antidepressants are a government plot. Etc etc etc etc. Yeah, I'd go with "conspiracy theorist". If one of his theories is taught in one country as reality for political reasons that doesn't change how he makes his living. Weregerbil 08:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Guys, look, the alternative is having this: "His brother Steve Watson [2] is also a conspiracy theorist.". Is that really where we want to be? What is the point of this policy? -- Striver 11:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't there a section on a policy for any kind of portrait (photo, or other image or picture such as a drawing) of the biographed person?-- AlainV 18:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
What was the reason/purpose for this change? rootology ( T) 14:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I notice that this article was originally created on 12/17/2005, promoted to a guideline on 1/27/2006, and promoted to a policy on 7/18/2006. Where can I review the discussions that led to consensus of elevating this proposal to a guideline and then a policy? - O^O 17:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
As a "notable" individual myself, I often find myself meeting other notable individuals in various venues -- in a green room while we're waiting for an interview, in a a "speaker's lounge" at a convention, bumping into other authors at a major booksigning event, etc. When I chat with them, the subject of Wikipedia often comes up, since it's one of my favorite hobbies. Sometimes the people that I talk to complain about an inaccuracy in their bio, in which case I of course volunteer to fix/remove it (especially if it's unsourced negative info). I also routinely volunteer to expand simple biographical details to improve the article, such as high school attended, parents' occupations, place of birth, etc. In those cases, should I list the subject in the "Sources" section, such as, "Some information provided by subject, and transcribed by <name>"? Or, in those cases where the subject is himself or herself web-savvy enough to change their own bio (and yes, I make sure to tell them about WP:AUTO), should they list themselves in the "Sources" section? Has there been any discussion about the best way to handle these cases? -- Elonka 17:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I will quote the current page "In some cases the subject may become involved in an article. They may edit it themselves or have a representative of theirs edit it. They may contact Wikipedians either through the article's talk page or via email. Or, they may provide information through press releases, a personal website or blog, or an autobiography.
Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if: ... It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject; "
Now since any mention of any other person, spouse, parents, children, employers, friends, etc are "claims about third parties", then by this rule, they may not be included on the subject's page, through using material or communications provided by the subject themselves.
Personally I think this wording is far too restrictive, but that is what it currently states. Wjhonson 20:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
What if the source cited for some fairly private information is an email sent to the subjects fans? This is not entirely hypothetical [18], though in this case I suspect another source could be found. - MrFizyx 17:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I find it curious the new caveat about living persons refers to "libellous" statements. The standard spelling of "libelous" has one 'l' not two. Curious how someone who seeks to impose a common standard uses the uncommon spelling. While it's not incorrect to spell it "libellous," that's by far the minority spelling, per OED and numerous other standard dictionaries. -- 207.69.139.10 05:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I have raised this here before, but there continue to be daily misinterpretations of WP:BLP throughout the articles related to Hugo Chávez. I am hoping that regulars here will review this situation, and make comments, or discuss whether the wording on BLP can be improved to help avoid this abusive misinterpretation of BLP. Sandy 20:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to see something stronger against including negative material just because it's well-sourced. The Malicious editing section now says in part:
The "published sources" part is working well, but the "demonstration of relevance" part isn't.
The article on Ann Coulter, for example, is full of well-sourced negative comments, interview snippets, etc. that aren't individually relevant to her notability, though she IS notable for her outspokenness. Sometimes these individually non-notable items become so numerous that special sections are created for specific categories. Usually they are appended to factual encyclopedic material, as if to show what a bad person she is. (See "Radio" HERE.)
It seems to me that mentioning such a person's outspoken nature, and possibly providing an example or two in connection with that mention, should be enough for any encyclopedia. As it is, some (IMHO malicious) editors gleefully include negative after negative after negative, all of them with sources. (The unsourced ones are quickly weeded out, thank Jimbo.) I'm not sure that including such stuff contributes to encyclopedic excellence. Lou Sander 13:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
than a few examples are warranted, though preferably the most 'newsworthy' or widely reported examples should be kept. 24.59.105.229 12:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:BLP states "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule." So, in removing such material from talk pages, the result is a hole in the discussion and can lead to misunderstandings due to lack of context. Is there a tag we can use to replace such comments that are removed to indicate to other editors/readers that something has been removed in accordance with WP:BLP? -- HResearcher 02:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This policy currently states "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule. This principle also applies to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia. Administrators may enforce the removal of unsourced material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked."( as of 21:15, 5 June 2006) My suggestion is that this point be amended to include original research on talk pages. The result would be something like this: "Editors should remove any negative material that is either unsourced or relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources from any page, including those concerning living persons and related talk pages, without discussion; this is also listed as an exception to the three-revert rule. This principle also applies to biographical material and original research about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia. Administrators may enforce the removal of unsourced material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked." (emphasis added to indicate proposed amendment.) -- HResearcher 11:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so JzG cautiously supports this. Anyone else have comments about this proposal? -- HResearcher 03:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
When a bio article contains a source, is it also necessary to cite that source in other articles where the subject is mentioned with a wikilink back to the bio, or is it acceptable to rely on the reader to follow the link back to the bio? I am having issues with Jeff Gannon being called a prostitute in various articles. An admin is pushing back, and I am not sure of this particular requirement. (I am also not fully comfortable with the sources in the Jeff Gannon article "proving" that he is a prostitute, but that is another issue). I would appreciate someone with more experience with BLP to take a look at Jeff Gannon, and the articles that link to it. Crockspot 12:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
What I remember is that Jeff Gannon created a website and published his picture on it with invitations to pay him money for gay sex and was paid by the Bush administration to plant friendly questions at white house press briefings. The same anti-gay Bush administration that now says it has a problem with leftists manipulating the press. This is not a minor figure who deserves his privacy, but a paid political operative whose illegalities are important to the discussion of political power in the US. WAS 4.250 23:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Essentially, this policy is a clarification of NPOV and verifiability: to be absolutely hardarsed about them. Everything else follows from there. To that end I've cut down the nutshell a bit. Sensitivity is not part of the original intent of the policy, but neutrality and a remarkably high standard of verifiability are, for example. Further ideas on cutting it down are welcomed. There is no point duplicating the guideline in the nutshell - David Gerard 13:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
24.59.105.229 12:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) I agree that above all, we should be sure that WP itself does not harm the living subject. I think that if all we do is summarize verifiable and reliable secondary sources then the added effect of the publication in WP would be small. Ideally WP itself should have a very low profile - simply collecting and presenting publicly available and reliable information from secondary sources. And certainly the presentation has to remain neutral at all times. Crum375 16:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
There is an explicit moral problem in posting information about a person on Wikipedia which they do not want to be posted there (for whatever reason). This is not treating others as you would want to be treated, or as you'd like your family or loved ones to be treated-- in such cases Wikipedia is THEREFORE acting in a way which is explicitly aggressive and aggravating. Give up the golden rule and that's what you get, so you'd better have a overwhelming social reason for it, like survival or security. I fail to see such a principle operating here.
Finally, let me point out that entry of Wikipedia information involves impact. It does involve a loss of privacy because Wikipedia entries are more easily available to search engines that most (almost all) secondary sources. Putting something on Wikipedia DOES make it more public, almost no matter how public it was, before the fact. Even if it was on the Five O'Clock News, the Five O'Clock News is an hour and Wikipedia is (no doubt, in some form or another) forever. At the end of this process, without guidance from the Bio subject, we thus have Wikipedia used as an amplifier for what may have been a questionable moral tradeoff decision (between notability and privacy) to begin with.
All of which is not helped in the least by the fact that the very creation of a Wiki bio on a person increases their "notability" and "public presence" far more than a full page article in their local paper ever can or will. Something these discussions have been reluctant to admit as a "given." Mostly I see Wikipedia treated as though it wasn't Major Media itself, but merely an unimportant mirror or piece of glass, with no effect on that which it is exposing or reflecting. Wrong. Wikipedia gives to anonymous persons the kind of power previously available only to editors of major newspapers.
In a nutshell, this whole process is bound to stink when applied to biography of living persons, without saving input and editorial management from the people who will otherwise be the targets of victims of it. Which, so far, we simply do not have. S B H arris 19:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
David Gerard said "Sensitivity is not part of the original intent of the policy". That is in fact the exact opposite of the truth. When I created the first edit of the proposal that became the guideline that became the policy, its entire content was to be sentitive on articles about living people with the context of that being a very (and still) angry object of a bio that objected to what he perceived as an invasion of his privacy as a nonnoteable (legally speaking according to Florida privacy laws he said) private person and he did not want to be converted into a public person with fewer legal rights concerning his privacy. The meaning of "sensitivity" is not omit negative information but instead involves enhanced awareness such as the enhanced awareness you have in the more sensitive parts of your body. The use of the word "sensitivity" is a dircet quote from the man asking for a little as he was a living person. WAS 4.250 23:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I seem to remember seeing somewhere a page for alerts about possible violations of this policy. Am I imagining this, or does such a page exist, and if so, where?
For what it's worth, my specific concern is the continuous insertion of critical material from poor sources (newspaper editorials and a lobby group, in particular) into the Rashid Khalidi article, along with highly-POV commentary by the person inserting them. Palmiro | Talk 20:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems will be that admins need to be all on the same page about what is proper sourcing for BLPs. I am in a dispute with an admin over just this issue. I don't believe the sources support the negative claims in a particular article, and an admin disagrees with me, and keeps reinserting the offending statements. An AMA advocate is looking at the issue for me, and is tending to agree that my interpretation is correct. I already thought the BLP rules were clear, but apparently they are not clear enough for this particular admin. Perhaps a tutorial program for the admins that will be watching this board? Crockspot 16:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
What gibbering idiocy is this? If we don't have verifiable source of such, it shouldn't go in at all; if we do have a verifiable source of such then so does everyone else. Who thought this particularly inane piece of instruction creep from Hell was in any way sensible? And can they convince me they weren't just trolling, because that's certainly the most charitable assumption? - David Gerard 06:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I hear Jimbo's daughter has been a victim of privacy invasion. And Jimbo has been caught repeatedly buffing his own Bio, and merely confesses and says he's sorry. Anything to keep from admiting that he was WRONG and this was a BAD idea to begin with! Sheesh! S B H arris 00:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It's just part of a key to things about a person's history which may be "public" but only in the very narrow sense that they may exist in some public form, like an old CV posted on the web, or somebody's opinions on a TALK page, and the personal info from somebody's yearbooks from libraries someplace. Add to this long forgotten newstuff, public records of various types (difficult but not impossible to get if you have money and time), and a fairly thorough biography can be created on anybody, as you well know from being a geneologist. A bio just waiting to bite you from wikipedia the moment you do anything "notable" (whatever that is). And one which can be used for malicious purposes if you have the bad luck to run afoul of a malicious person. All this is not a good thing.
Let me add another problem, which is that the idea that WP:NOR protects somebody from putting all this stuff together. It doesn't. All original article writing represents new synthesis of information, just from the act of choosing sources and which sentence to put ahead of another. If it wasn't original synthesis, it would be plagiarism, so you pick. It's one or the other. I don't want to see it done on Wikipedia for living people who object to it. ONCE AGAIN, let me strongly remind everybody that PUBLIC isn't a binary thing, so that all information is either PUBLIC or NOT PUBLIC. A great deal of information is "public" only by virtue of being hidden in plain sight in some obscure place, awaiting a good deal of time, work, money, sweat, and some intelligence to dig it out and associate it with other information. We don't need Wikipedia, at the end of a 2 second Google Search to be the end result and repository of that process. So I urge you to do what you can to stop it. S B H arris 18:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I could not have put it better myself. Basically the point is that, indeed, if you really want to gather information about somebody, you can often do so (look up records in city halls or courthouses, do "freedom of information" requests, do many Google searches, etc.); it tends to take time and resources, and this is why people seldom do it unless they have real grudges and resources to spare.
Wikipedia, on the other hand, is a high traffic site highly ranked in Google. This means that people who otherwise may have to sleuth quite a bit before doing bad things would just have to do a 2-second Google search.
Now, it is a fact that banks and other businesses often consider that if you know someone's date of birth, mother's maiden name, name of children, then you probably are that person. Perhaps this is stupid, but that's how things are.
We should therefore not store information that has little encyclopedic value but high potential for trouble. David.Monniaux 21:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'm copying and pasting what I said on the tak page for Kari Wahlgren, a voice actress who recently requested that her birthday information be taken down. The month and day were taken down, but that doesn't really address HER problem with her birth year being put up--her age. She's what I think is considered a "non-notable public figure." Yes, to some people she is notable, but she's no Angelina Jolie or Barbara Walters--she's not a household name, nor is her age something she (and many other non-notable actors) want known! In the case of actors and actresses trying to make a name, career, or even living for themselves, having their age revealed can be limiting their careers. Producers and directors may claim to practice blind casting, but lets face it, as soon as they know someones actual age, they start restricting themselves. A lot of actors would prefer their ages not be revealed because of the reprecussions, and I'm sure Kari is just one of those. Sure, people should be able to know the "Encyclopedic facts" but is it REALLY that important? If you're a fan of someone, shouldn't your ultimate goal as his or her fan be their success as an actor or actress--or their ability to put food on the table? If that's not reasonable, I don't know what is. My thought is that in cases like this, if the subject requests their age being removed, it should be for their protection, the protection of their career, that we oblige. It might sate someones curiosity, and yes, to the technologically inclined who know where to find the information or are willing to pay for the information, you can find it, but is it really worth sacrificing potential career roles/moves to make a handful of people happy that they know? Besides, some fansites who may respect the subjects wishes may have their birth day (month and day) posted but not the year, and the combination of that information and the year being available defeats the whole purpose of "year but not month and day" that's listed as policy in Ms. Wahlgren's Talk page. Just a Fan 21:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
At the head of the new anti-Semitism article is an image ... Nowhere in the article is there text saying who's claiming that the image is anti-Semitic (only linked references to fairly respectable blogs connected to news sources). In this light it is arguable that Wikipedia itself is saying that the image is anti-Semitic (particularly given the image's file name Image:NewASAnti-Semiticposter.jpg). Does Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy apply in this type of case? Thanks. ( → Netscott) 11:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Netscott was the person who on labelling the image as "Anti-Semitic", against the strong objections of other editors. Now that he's gotten his way, he's insisting it be deleted based on WP:BLP. This is the third grounds on which he's tried to have the image, and arguably the most duplicitous. This disruption must stop. Jayjg (talk) 00:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Ideally who the artist is, who the organizer of the event the image is associated with (two sources are saying A.N.S.W.E.R.) and who is saying it is an example of new anti-Semitism should be readlily available to the reader. In particular who is saying the image is anti-Semitic should be included so that the article doesn't fall afoul of WP:BLP relative to the artist. ( → Netscott) 02:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the Malicious Editing section should also address edits like this:
The stuff after the first reference is speculation by the editor. I'm new here, but it seems pretty malicious to me. (The full text original is here, its current version is here). Lou Sander 12:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
The edit should simply read "b 26 Jul 1945 (State of xxx, Driver Records) or b 14 Nov 1947 (County of xxx, Voter Records)" with no further comment. Wjhonson 14:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with both of you, but the authors of the speculation don't. In good faith, they think they're doing the world a favor (not only in my example, but in all the others). It might be helpful to somehow add this kind of thing to the Malicious Editing section, which covers only sourcing and notability. Maybe it should mention malicious original research as well. (I'm thinking that this speculation is OR, but I'm fuzzy on it). Lou Sander 14:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
The way
Lou Sander's tells it I would come to that conclusion too. He makes it sound like original research with no objective other than to pointlessly insult. He leaves out the source and context as stated in the article: "
Coulter has refused to address this disparity, pointed out most notably by Al Franken, a rival pundit who brought up the disparity in his book, Lies & The Lying Liars Who Tell Them." Ann's history of being a liar is a credibility issue that is important with a pundit. She writes and sells books that tell us who to chose as the most powerful person on the planet. Whether or not she is a liar is relevant.
WAS 4.250 14:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Some biographical entries contain documentation on family members (first names, religious affiliation, etc.), even though these members are not public personalities. I suggest these should be systematically dropped. Family members of public personalities who are not themselves public personalities have a right to privacy; besides, such content is not encyclopedic, and may create real problems to those involved (such as facilitating harassment). Just because, say, your brother is a controversial politician, you should not have to endure the harassment of those who dislike the guy. David.Monniaux 14:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
For instance: some article about some personality who had a bad divorce mentioned that personality's children by name, and the first name being uncommon, anybody interacting with that person may get details about her family by a simple Google research. I think this definitely infringes on that person's privacy, while this does not bring any actual encyclopedic content. David.Monniaux 15:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd say the names of a person's parents and children are a rather important part of that person's biography. AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
We all know that "case by case" sounds good and reasonable in most cases and at a first thought here as well but it is not in this case out of simple reasons:
So do not decide on a case by case basis if certain privacy related information of minor important people needs to be deleted but decide on a case by case basis if you add it. In general the "family" section of a famous person whose family is not famous should contain the facts that he/she is married/divorced/whatever and has/hasn't one/two/three/whatever-number doughter/son but not the names and other highly indentifying information. Arnomane 21:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
A while back the privacy of Jimmy Wales' daughter was violated on wikipedia. Be aware of a certain sensitivity some might have on making light of privacy needs of nonnotable people. Deleting addresses, phone numbers, birthdays, social security numbers, auto license information, etc might seem "paranoid" but it is not. WAS 4.250 13:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there such a thing? I would be willing to become involved with such a task force. Such a group, along with an alert/request page, could really clamp down on the problems. As far as I can tell, there is no such group. This issue is too important to WP's legal well-being to not have a group that specifically deals with these problems directly. Crockspot 15:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography ?? Should a link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography be somewhere near the top of this page?? WAS 4.250 15:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
To whom do I turn for help on a page that contains possibly libelous material? Unverified personal accounts being taken as fact, factual events being misconstrued, etc. I've tried to edit the material out, but the page maker keeps putting it back. Thanks. Steviegee 16:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It'd be good to provide a link to the noticeboard via the BLP template so that editors who are in doubt or having difficulty with other editors can have a place to go. I invite other editors to join the discussion about this idea. Thanks. ( → Netscott) 22:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
On bios of scientists, some editors count number of citations toward assessing "Notability". Using citations on (say} Google scholar as a count is subject to gross artefacts.
E.g., unless both papers are actually posted as a journal article on the net (Science only does this back too about 1996), most cross-cites do not get picked up. A better count is derived by using "related articles" on http://pubmed.gov as a proxy or using citation index. E.g. Pubmed cites 96 articles related to a 1974 paper in Science, showing the first molecular electronic device. But, only a handful show up on a "Google Scholar" search.
An illustrative counter-example is the journal Stroke, where, unlike Science, full text articles back to the 1970's have been posted. With such articles, the number of citations showing on-line reasonably corresponds to "related articles" on Pubmed.gov.
E.g., for this this 1970's paper in Stroke, Google Scholar lists 100 citing articles. while Pubmed lists 89 associated articles. Not too far off, considering all the variables. Pproctor 00:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
At
Talk:List of famous prostitutes and courtesans#Alleged male prostitutes,
User:Crockspot and I are having a disagreement about the threshold of reliability required by WP:BLP. If I understand him correctly, he is saying that
1. Regardless of the caliber of a source, there must be multiple independent sources.
2. Those sources must not have any axe to grind.
And perhaps he is claiming something even more restrictive than that, which I'm not quite picking up.
I find the second requirement a bit troubling, because it is hard to say who does and does not have an axe to grind. In this case, the two sources I provided, which were rejected as inadequate, were:
Since then another editor has found two articles from the Washington Post asserting, respectively, that the individual's "naked pictures have appeared on a number of gay escort sites" and that he "was offering his escort services for $200 an hour, or $1,200 a weekend".
So, if these don't add up to enough, I'm a bit bewildered. Is Crockspot correctly interpreting this rule? If so, I believe we have an enormous amount of material about living people that does not meet this level of citation, probably the bulk of it. - Jmabel | Talk 00:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it would be good to have a template with a message specifically for violations of this policy. I just reverted a large unsourced and highly POV edit, and was looking for a template to place on the offending user's talk page. The closest thing I could find is a general NPOV message, but I think it would be useful to stress the higher degree of importance on strict adherence to the NPOV policy required for BLPs. I would do it myself if I knew anything about making a template. Dansiman 02:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
You have made an edit that could be regarded as defamatory. Please do not restore this material to the article or its talk page. If you do, you may be blocked for disruption. See the blocking policy.
You have made an edit that could be regarded as defamatory. Please do not restore this material to the article or its talk page. If you restore this material to the article or its talk page once more, you will be blocked for disruption. See Blocking policy: Biographies of living people.
{{
unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
. However, you should read the
guide to appealing blocks first. -- FloNight 02:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this has been asked here before, so here I go: Unsourced negative material about a living person should be removed on sight. I don't have a problem with that. What I've seen since this became a policy tho was that admins not only removed negative material, but also deleted the correspondent edits, citing this policy. Am I missing a good reason why deleting negative material is better than just removing it? The only thing I can think of are people wanting negative material about them deleted, even from the history, but this was not the case in the situations I've witnessed. I don't really like the direction this is going. We should only delete edits when there is a really good reason to, not just because they contain something negative about someone. So, why is deleting better than removing? -- Conti| ✉ 00:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Biographies of Living Persons WP:BLP requires a higher wikipedia standard since the Siegenthaler Controversy in December 2005. Articles like these involve WP:LIBEL and WP:NPOV It has been 6 months, and wikipedia still has hundreds of potentially libelious articles.
Many editors and even administrators are generally unaware of potential defamation either direct or via WP:NPOV. To help protect wikipedia, I feel a large working group of historians, lawyers, journalists, administrators and everyday editors is needed to rapidly enforce policies.
Concerned editors are invitedto join and particpate in a new working group, tenatively named Wikipedia:Libel-Protection Unit, a group devoted to WP:BLP, WP:LIBEL and WP:NPOV and active enforcement. Some of you are being personally invited via individual talk pages, please do not interpret not receiving one as an intentional exclusion! I look forward to seeing you there. Electrawn 16:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I've read through the various articles and am still unsure what rules apply to photos of political figures, especially those who don't have government photos of them. I'm more than willing to e-mail them for permission to use a photo or requesting a photo, but want to be sure I'll be doing everything right. -- Tim4christ17 17:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I do some work for one of the Washington Post companies. They required me to take a short interactive course on avoiding behavior that could lead to sexual harrassment claims. There was some online study material that included a number of examples, and a quiz before and after to measure how much I knew and had learned. Now that I've taken the course, the Post and I are both a bit better off.
It occurs to me that we might benefit from such a little course about BLP policies. It wouldn't have to be interactive, and if it included a quiz, editors could score it themselves.
Such a thing could be helpful to good faith editors who want to be sure their BLP work is in keeping with policy. Editors who seem not to follow policy could gently be advised to take the course. Nobody would need to know who took the course, did the quiz, or even looked at any of it.
If there's interest in the idea, I'd be happy to come up with a draft. Look HERE for a simple example. Lou Sander 20:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)