WikiProject Mexico: Strategy Noticeboard
I created the first municipality article a few months ago and named it Ensenada (municipality), however I come to the realization that I have never used "Ensenada (municipality)" in an article but I have used many times the "Municipality of Ensenada" text, so I have had to type "The town of Guadalupe is part of the [[Ensenada (municipality)|Municipality of Ensenada]]". Therefore I am proposing changing the municipio articles to the "Municipality of (name of municipio)" format and to create future articles under it. -- Vizcarra 19:29, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Couple of comments:
So, I'd prefer the parenthetical format, but it's far from something I'd start a holy war over. And a redirect from the other format would probably be useful too. Whichever is chosen as the article location, we should agree on a method for disambiguating all those municipalities that share names with others in other states -- seems that every state has its Benito Juárez and its Emiliano Zapata. –Hajor 15:27, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
-- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 21:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Why is it that we have articles named Universidad de Sonora and Universidad Autónoma de Guadalajara but others named Autonomous University of Nuevo León and National Autonomous University of Mexico? Should we go with the Spanish name or the English name here? -- Spangineer (háblame) 01:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
User:Vizcarra is modifying the external links of most articles adding the ISO code for Spanish at the begining of each link and removing any other reference to the lang. I find that notation quite unintuitive for the average user, and maybe this should be rised to a different level since it involves pretty much every single external link in a lang. other than English.
Personally I preffer something like:
over:
But I would like to hear more comments. Ruiz 02:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, for lack of convention, I will start using the (in Spanish) icon again (just because I like how it looks), I was starting to use (es), because using ISO codes in text was the agreed standard. I have created a template {{In Spanish}} and if you type:
it will look like this:
Once we agree on a convention we can just modify the template and all pages will be consistent. -- Vizcarra 02:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
After having such a difficult time with my students trying to write “town” pages, and consequently learning more about the “municipio”/”town” structure… I would like to suggest that we combine the articles for the municipality and its seat. There are a couple of reasons for this. First of all, governmentally, the municipality is an extension of the seat. The communities belonging to the municipality do not have their own independent government (nor anything like a mayor), instead they send delegates to the seat to represent the community’s interests. The seat itself does not have a mayor, either – the municipal president fulfils this function. The second reason is that 99% of the time, the municipality and the seat have the same name… logical considering the above. Also, in most cases, this will make writing about the seats and municipalities a more doable task. After all, Oaxaca state alone has 570 municipalities and the fact of the matter is that in many many cases, there will NOT be enough information to write 2 decent articles.
As for naming, (when there is a difference between seat name and municipality name), I think we should use the seat’s name. The reason for this is that the English Wikipedia targets mostly non-Mexicans and most “foreigners” have no idea was the concept of municipality is (as I didn’t, even after 4 or so years living in Mexico!) and, of course are more likely to find the seat on a map rather than a municipality.
I have set up the page for Acambay State of Mexico to roughly follow this idea, as modified the infobox for it as well. Thelmadatter ( talk) 00:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I gree with Judith in the idea that we have to distinguish between township that include many villages that belong to it, And seat (or "cabecera") that at the same time refers the township. For a better distinction, I think, we have to write a particular stub that features the main city in wich the political powers are within. It means, the municipal council and the others administratives jobs to the municipal service. Another Stub that looks through every village as a municipality area and at the same time to include the main town o seat. We have to detail this issues to undertand the differences. For example the TExcoco city is the seat´s name and at the same time is the MUnicipality´s name. We have to include a stud looking through this points to stablish de difference. Filiberto022 ( talk) 17:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Quintana Roo distinguishes for its
municipalities the difference between municipality and municipal seat (at least for most of them). It seems that the confussion arise when the names are the same. In this moment we have 2 options:
A) Have 2 separate articles for the municipality (which includes general information and a list of its boroughs) and the municipal seat. As an example of this case you can see
Municipalities of Baja California. This is what is happening also with
Quintana Roo and some of its
municipalities.
B) Have just one article for the municipality and its seat (including in first place information about the seat, and then information about the municipality -with a list of its boroughs). This is what
Thelmadatter is doing with
Municipalities of Mexico State.
The first option is the one I preferred in order to have a clear distinction but it seems to work better for states with a small number of municipalities.
The second option has a practical approach and it seems to work better for states with lot of municipalities (each one having lot of boroughs with not significant population).
I would like to have your opionion about using only one format for all the states or depending on the state using the approach that fits better to it. --
Judith Soto |
Talk 17:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Considering these points of view I make to you the following suggestions: - Consider separating municipalities from seats, because socio-demographic and economic information will vary between the two. - Consider separating municipalities from seats, to document and explain how territories are divided in Mexico. In the end Acambay is not the only municipality/seat in Mexico. - If in the end you choose not to divide municipalities form seats, do consider putting information that specifies that the information given is either form the seat or a municipality, or do right an entry that further explains how territories are named and divided in Mexico. As a conclusion, I hope that these points of view help you take the best decision, which enrich your article and assists others. -- Mr. Ed Bernes ( talk) 21:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Ive been working on already-existing pages that are listed in the municipalities of Oaxaca and municipalities of Mexico State pages... (in alphabetical order.. working on Tonatico right now) and its has been giving me some insight as I do reading and stuff to improve the pages. Town and municipal governments in Mexico are not distinct. The municipal president is the head of government of both the seat and of all the communities in the municipalities. The non-seat communities do NOT have mayors or anything of the sort. They send delegates to the seat/municipality to represent their interests. So this is very different from the town/county system in the US and even the municipality system in many other countries. Another thing is that the seat almost always absolutely dominates the municipality, in size, political importance and economic importance. If a non-seat entity grows to the point that it rivals a seat, the usual result is that the municipality splits into two. In a number of cases, the city as grown to be co-extensive or dang near co-extensive with the municipality (See Cuautitlán Izcalli or Ciudad López Mateos and in the case of Los Reyes Acaquilpan not only is the city co-extensive with the municipality of La Paz... colloquially the two names have been merged to Los Reyes-La Paz) In rural areas, the seat is almost always the community of any size at all and in the case of Oaxaca, just about every town IS a municipality because of the really mountainous terrain. For rural municipalities and seats, there is very often not enough information to justify two articles, even combining them results in a very short article. Last, but not least, is the fact that the towns/municipalities are most often referred to by the same name (either officially or unofficially) and are considered to a very large extent to be the same thing. When a distinction is made it is usually to say something like Toluca city. (as Ive seen from my students). Since city names are what usually appear on maps, I think it is best to name pages by the name of the seat, if it is somehow different from the name of the municipality. Usually the difference is minor like Jilotepec/Jilotepec de Molina Enríquez - and naming it by the usually longer city name can help in cases where there are multiple towns/municipalities of the same common name (Atizapan de Zaragoza vs Santa Maria Atizapan - both can be called Atizapan). There are some exceptions like Atizapán de Zaragoza/Ciudad López Mateos where the latter, the official city name, is almost never used... the city and its co-extensive municipality are both simply called Atizapan. The only time I can see separating city and municipality is in cases where the combined page gets too long or weildy (may be possible in the case of Toluca) but that will by far be the exception rather than the rule. I would really like to do this because it will make doing these pages as class assignments so much more manageable... not to mention the fact that there are some 2,500 municipalities in all of Mexico. Thelmadatter ( talk) 16:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
WikiProject Mexico: Strategy Noticeboard
I created the first municipality article a few months ago and named it Ensenada (municipality), however I come to the realization that I have never used "Ensenada (municipality)" in an article but I have used many times the "Municipality of Ensenada" text, so I have had to type "The town of Guadalupe is part of the [[Ensenada (municipality)|Municipality of Ensenada]]". Therefore I am proposing changing the municipio articles to the "Municipality of (name of municipio)" format and to create future articles under it. -- Vizcarra 19:29, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Couple of comments:
So, I'd prefer the parenthetical format, but it's far from something I'd start a holy war over. And a redirect from the other format would probably be useful too. Whichever is chosen as the article location, we should agree on a method for disambiguating all those municipalities that share names with others in other states -- seems that every state has its Benito Juárez and its Emiliano Zapata. –Hajor 15:27, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
-- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 21:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Why is it that we have articles named Universidad de Sonora and Universidad Autónoma de Guadalajara but others named Autonomous University of Nuevo León and National Autonomous University of Mexico? Should we go with the Spanish name or the English name here? -- Spangineer (háblame) 01:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
User:Vizcarra is modifying the external links of most articles adding the ISO code for Spanish at the begining of each link and removing any other reference to the lang. I find that notation quite unintuitive for the average user, and maybe this should be rised to a different level since it involves pretty much every single external link in a lang. other than English.
Personally I preffer something like:
over:
But I would like to hear more comments. Ruiz 02:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, for lack of convention, I will start using the (in Spanish) icon again (just because I like how it looks), I was starting to use (es), because using ISO codes in text was the agreed standard. I have created a template {{In Spanish}} and if you type:
it will look like this:
Once we agree on a convention we can just modify the template and all pages will be consistent. -- Vizcarra 02:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
After having such a difficult time with my students trying to write “town” pages, and consequently learning more about the “municipio”/”town” structure… I would like to suggest that we combine the articles for the municipality and its seat. There are a couple of reasons for this. First of all, governmentally, the municipality is an extension of the seat. The communities belonging to the municipality do not have their own independent government (nor anything like a mayor), instead they send delegates to the seat to represent the community’s interests. The seat itself does not have a mayor, either – the municipal president fulfils this function. The second reason is that 99% of the time, the municipality and the seat have the same name… logical considering the above. Also, in most cases, this will make writing about the seats and municipalities a more doable task. After all, Oaxaca state alone has 570 municipalities and the fact of the matter is that in many many cases, there will NOT be enough information to write 2 decent articles.
As for naming, (when there is a difference between seat name and municipality name), I think we should use the seat’s name. The reason for this is that the English Wikipedia targets mostly non-Mexicans and most “foreigners” have no idea was the concept of municipality is (as I didn’t, even after 4 or so years living in Mexico!) and, of course are more likely to find the seat on a map rather than a municipality.
I have set up the page for Acambay State of Mexico to roughly follow this idea, as modified the infobox for it as well. Thelmadatter ( talk) 00:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I gree with Judith in the idea that we have to distinguish between township that include many villages that belong to it, And seat (or "cabecera") that at the same time refers the township. For a better distinction, I think, we have to write a particular stub that features the main city in wich the political powers are within. It means, the municipal council and the others administratives jobs to the municipal service. Another Stub that looks through every village as a municipality area and at the same time to include the main town o seat. We have to detail this issues to undertand the differences. For example the TExcoco city is the seat´s name and at the same time is the MUnicipality´s name. We have to include a stud looking through this points to stablish de difference. Filiberto022 ( talk) 17:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Quintana Roo distinguishes for its
municipalities the difference between municipality and municipal seat (at least for most of them). It seems that the confussion arise when the names are the same. In this moment we have 2 options:
A) Have 2 separate articles for the municipality (which includes general information and a list of its boroughs) and the municipal seat. As an example of this case you can see
Municipalities of Baja California. This is what is happening also with
Quintana Roo and some of its
municipalities.
B) Have just one article for the municipality and its seat (including in first place information about the seat, and then information about the municipality -with a list of its boroughs). This is what
Thelmadatter is doing with
Municipalities of Mexico State.
The first option is the one I preferred in order to have a clear distinction but it seems to work better for states with a small number of municipalities.
The second option has a practical approach and it seems to work better for states with lot of municipalities (each one having lot of boroughs with not significant population).
I would like to have your opionion about using only one format for all the states or depending on the state using the approach that fits better to it. --
Judith Soto |
Talk 17:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Considering these points of view I make to you the following suggestions: - Consider separating municipalities from seats, because socio-demographic and economic information will vary between the two. - Consider separating municipalities from seats, to document and explain how territories are divided in Mexico. In the end Acambay is not the only municipality/seat in Mexico. - If in the end you choose not to divide municipalities form seats, do consider putting information that specifies that the information given is either form the seat or a municipality, or do right an entry that further explains how territories are named and divided in Mexico. As a conclusion, I hope that these points of view help you take the best decision, which enrich your article and assists others. -- Mr. Ed Bernes ( talk) 21:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Ive been working on already-existing pages that are listed in the municipalities of Oaxaca and municipalities of Mexico State pages... (in alphabetical order.. working on Tonatico right now) and its has been giving me some insight as I do reading and stuff to improve the pages. Town and municipal governments in Mexico are not distinct. The municipal president is the head of government of both the seat and of all the communities in the municipalities. The non-seat communities do NOT have mayors or anything of the sort. They send delegates to the seat/municipality to represent their interests. So this is very different from the town/county system in the US and even the municipality system in many other countries. Another thing is that the seat almost always absolutely dominates the municipality, in size, political importance and economic importance. If a non-seat entity grows to the point that it rivals a seat, the usual result is that the municipality splits into two. In a number of cases, the city as grown to be co-extensive or dang near co-extensive with the municipality (See Cuautitlán Izcalli or Ciudad López Mateos and in the case of Los Reyes Acaquilpan not only is the city co-extensive with the municipality of La Paz... colloquially the two names have been merged to Los Reyes-La Paz) In rural areas, the seat is almost always the community of any size at all and in the case of Oaxaca, just about every town IS a municipality because of the really mountainous terrain. For rural municipalities and seats, there is very often not enough information to justify two articles, even combining them results in a very short article. Last, but not least, is the fact that the towns/municipalities are most often referred to by the same name (either officially or unofficially) and are considered to a very large extent to be the same thing. When a distinction is made it is usually to say something like Toluca city. (as Ive seen from my students). Since city names are what usually appear on maps, I think it is best to name pages by the name of the seat, if it is somehow different from the name of the municipality. Usually the difference is minor like Jilotepec/Jilotepec de Molina Enríquez - and naming it by the usually longer city name can help in cases where there are multiple towns/municipalities of the same common name (Atizapan de Zaragoza vs Santa Maria Atizapan - both can be called Atizapan). There are some exceptions like Atizapán de Zaragoza/Ciudad López Mateos where the latter, the official city name, is almost never used... the city and its co-extensive municipality are both simply called Atizapan. The only time I can see separating city and municipality is in cases where the combined page gets too long or weildy (may be possible in the case of Toluca) but that will by far be the exception rather than the rule. I would really like to do this because it will make doing these pages as class assignments so much more manageable... not to mention the fact that there are some 2,500 municipalities in all of Mexico. Thelmadatter ( talk) 16:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)