WikiProject Mexico: Terminology Noticeboard
First of all, I am so glad this forum was created. It was quite hard to request op's, suggestions or comments to the people involved in the Mexican categories and/or look up for precedents or conventions all over the Wiki talk pages.
Now, back to business. I've worked mostly with bios and I think we need to come up with several conventions. Feel free to add your own. Ruiz 02:16, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The participants of this project have already reached a consensus about this. See the relevant discussion Talk:Mexican Executive Cabinet
Secretary of XYZ and Secretariat of XYZ have came up as the convention to be used. ( Hajor, Ruiz, Rune.welsh and Abögarp have voted in favor.)
-- Vizcarra 22:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Have you decided something about how to translate "Estado de México"? I live in Toluca and I am writing some articles for this state but I am confused because the article for the state is "Mexico State" but when you look for specific cities the reference is to "State of Mexico". I think both of these are the best options, personally I prefer Mexico State for a translation. I consider we must get a standard form and probably a task for this project will be to do all the corresponding changes. Judithsq Judith Soto 17:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
ALIANZA POR MEXICO (PRI/PVEM) ALIANZA POR EL BIEN DE TODOS (PRD/PT/Convergencia)
There is a low-intensity debate over whether to use "Spanish" vs. "Spaniards" in articles related to the era of Spanish colonial rule over Mexico and Latin America. We are specifically talking about the Spanish conquest of Mexico and related articles such as Aztec. However, the general question applies to any article related to the Spanish colonization of the Americas starting from the time of the conquistadors through the end of the colonial era.
Some Wikipedians argue that the modern-day term "Spanish" should be used (as in "the Spanish conquered Tenochtitlan in 1521"). Others argue that, whatever the modern-day term may be for people from the country of Spain, the term "Spaniards" is more appropriate when referring to the conquistadors.
Your opinion is solicited.
IMHO almost a non-issue, except that within an article, consistency is definitely required for purposes of readability. Bridesmill 22:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Disagree that this is a "non-issue" for two reasons. First, User:Nanhuatzin and I had more or less agreed to use "Spaniard" over User:Rockero's suggestion that we use "Spanish". Then User:Madman2001 made a mass conversion of "Spaniard" to "Spanish" in the Spanish conquest of Mexico article without consulting anybody. So now that article uses "Spanish" and most of the other Aztec-related articles use "Spaniard" primarily and "Spanish" here and there where I haven't changed it to "Spaniard" yet.
We need to agree so that we can push all the articles to one usage and then document that usage clearly so that newly arrived editors won't undo all the work.
I was pretty annoyed at Madman2001's edits because it undid all the work that I had done changing "Spanish" to "Spaniards". I'm sure he'd be none too happy if I undid all his work by changing it back unless there was a clear consensus that "Spaniards" is the preferred usage.
-- Richard 04:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Why does it all have to be the same? That is the same argument as 'should all spelling be American or UK English' That's what I mean by non-issue. If things are mass reverted one way or the other, invariably people are going to be annoyed (q.v. Jewelry/ Jewellery) Both forms are technically correct, if one is considered 'off' in one place, odds are good the other is not preferred somewhere else. Consistency within an article should suffice. Bridesmill 02:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Additional thought - two people agreeing to change all usage of a word in WP seems a bit bold; then two people coming along & disagreeing - not exactly unusual or unexpected; one of the reasons I would suggest stick with article consistency. Bridesmill 02:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I have to confess that I can't remember whether it was predominantly "Spanish" or "Spaniard" before I started editing. I do know that some articles said "Spanish", some said "Spaniard" and some had both.
I think it was predominantly "Spaniard" but I can't say that I actually counted every instance of each word. I started changing them all to "Spaniard" because Nanahuatzin (a Mexican editor) was using that.
My main concern is that the Hernan Cortes article now says "Spanish" but all the Aztec-related articles predominantly say "Spaniard" with a few instances of "Spanish" here and there. I don't think this kind of inconsistency is professional.
-- Richard 04:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
There is a consensual rule of thumb already in use for cities and states in Mexico. (See: WP:Naming conventions/city names/Mexico). While this rule has been applied successfully, there are two issues that require our attention: (1) an inconsistency in regard to boroughs vis-à-vis municipalities; and (2) the ambiguity with regards to metropolitan areas vis-à-vis core cities. These will be explained below. Please participate by expressing your opinion, agreement or disagreement so that we can reach a consensus.
As of now, the naming convention is [[Borough, D.F]]. I find this convention misleading for several reasons:
My proposal would be either to use [[Borough (D.F.)]], [[Borough (Mexico City)]], [[Borough (Federal District)]], or even (though I don't particularly like this one given that Mexico City is not known as ''Mexico, D.F.'' in English) [[Borough, Mexico, D.F.]]. Alternatives that other users want to propose are acceptable, as long as they do not imply that delegaciones are the equivalent of autonomous cities within the Federal District. The Federal District is formed by only one city: Mexico City. The city and the Federal District are coextensive jurisdictionally, constitutionally and administratively (in spite of the fact that the southern portion of the Federal District is not urbanized).
-- theDúnadan 20:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC) 18:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
It has been suggested that single names should be used for the articles of the metro areas or redirect to them. For example, that Mexico City should refer (or redirect) to Greater Mexico City; Monterrey to Monterrey metropolitan area, et al., and that the article about the city and municipality be renamed as Monterrey (city) or Monterrey (municipality), et al., (if coterminus).
Currently, certain cities, like Puebla and Guadalajara haver articles with names like "Guadalajara, Jalisco", or "Puebla, Puebla", which make it possible for it to be precise. "Guadalajara, Jalisco" can only mean the municipality of Guadalajara, and thus the article clearly must talk about that municipality.
However, other cities like Monterrey and Mexico City have title names like "Monterrey" and "Mexico City", which make it unclear to the reader exactly what they are going to talk about. In the case of Mexico City, will the article talk about the Metropolitan Zone of the Valley of Mexico, or will it talk about the Federal District? How do we know what information is being looked by the reader, and what can editors expect to add or subtract from those articles?
The term "Monterrey" refers, colloquially, to the metropolitan area, and officially, to the municipality. In the same way, the term "Mexico City" refers, colloquially, to the metropolitan area, and officially to the Federal District. In other words, the term means two things, and the article should only talk about one.
To make matters worse, articles about both the colloquial and the official meanings already exists (i.e., there is an article called "Monterrey (Municipality)", and another article called "Metropolitan Area of Monterrey", plus the article called "Monterrey". Same happens for Mexico City, there is an article called "Distrito Federal", another one about the Metropolitan area, and another one called "Mexico City").
The information is presented redundantly in wikipedia, it is also disorganized, and because of the above, innacurrate in any account. A solution must arise. It is clear that one of the three articles (for both cases) must dissapear in a way. It is clear there only be two articles: one for the official meaning, and one for the colloquial meaning (i.e., one for the city itself, be it municipality, core of the municipality, or Federal District ("Federal District", or "Monterrey (Municipality)", and one for the metro area).
The question now arises, what happens to the already existing Third Article ("Monterrey" or "Mexico City")?
There are three proposals:
Whatever proposal is chosen, it must be exported to other cities, like Tijuana, Ciudad Juarez, Tampico, Torreon, etc... It would be best if information about Mexican cities was standarized.
Hari Seldon 22:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The arguments in favor of this convention (as proposed by Hari Seldon) are:
I object the proposal based on the following:
My proposal is that, in spite of a common colloquial (mis)usage of the terms, simple names should refer first to the cities, then to municipalities (if they are not coextensive or coterminus) and then to metropolitan areas. That means that Monterrey should be about the city/municipality (being coextensive) and Monterrey metropolitan area should be about the conurbation. In the case in which cities are not coextensive with the municipality, this distinction should be made: Tijuana, for the city, Tijuana (municipality) and Tijuana metropolitan area for the metro area. This is a particular case, in that the municipality of Tijuana contains several localidades, pueblos and ciudades, of which Tijuana is only one. The metropolitan area includes several of these, but not all (since the municipality is very large). So is the case with other large municipalities in Baja California Sur, and to a lesser extent in the rest of the northwestern states. In other words, precision is better, we inform the reader of all.
-- theDúnadan 20:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
[In fact I would even extend that to states, but that is differnet matter, because it was already decided to follow the American convention of "City, State" where the state takes precedence, in spite that the Spanish/Mexican convention in encyclopedias is that cities take precedence: articles are usually named as follows: Puebla; Puebla, estado de; Puebla, municipio de. That is, the city took precedence over all. And since this particular issue has already been discussed, I won't reopen a debate unless several users wish to do so] -- theDúnadan 20:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I have presented my arguments, Dunadan, you have presented yours. I wish to see what other people think of them and then take a course of action. Hari Seldon 22:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, as a matter of fact there is no exactly Translation to English or a exactly definition of what is the difference between the County (Municipio), that were are going to say is the territory and the Principal town of the county, that is not the only town on the county.
For me, I would say to explain it better it is like a small state, for example we have the State of Mexico and the Capital is Toluca, where the the powers of government are located, we have: Governor State deputies State Supreme Court.
And we have the municipio, a smaller territory than the state, and a lot of Municipios or counties make the state territory, and they have their own authorities at their level , and we can call them Municipal or County Authorities, and they are located in the principal town of the county. (There is not only one village or small town located at the county So in order to differentiate the territory from the town, we can call the town by the name of capital of the county. Guillermo7777 ( talk) 21:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The name of “muncipality” comes from a historical and iuridical source.In many latinamerican countries use to name to this reality with the same name. First, Historical view. This term comes from the colonial age. When Hernan Cortes came to the Veracruz´s harbour he leaded the first governmental action with the local council´s helping. And of course in Spain they use to do the same. In México the township term is presented in the 1834 Constitution and afterwards in the 1857 Constitution. In the 1917 Constitution it recommends to the citizens to contribute with the gobernmental local spenses. Secondly, the iuridical view. The 1917 Constitution put the twonship in the central place of the political and administrative organization. The township ever took a sovereignty and particular individuality in front of the others political powers. I Think the Municipality is a historical and iuridical cathegory to name a reality that comes from the contitutional low and it has electoral effects in Mexico. That why the using of this word would be, townshipo to name the town that is the main city where there are the political power with the municipal council. The Municipality to whole territory that covers all the communities whitin it. Another word is District, and it has an electoral goals. I agree with the previous writer in saying that many towns in Mexico we use to refer them with the adjective of State wich belong to. For example we use to say Acambay, Mexico State; Lerma, Mexico State. With these names we name the cities o town villages but at the same time we refer to the township. Filiberto022 ( talk) 23:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
WikiProject Mexico: Terminology Noticeboard
First of all, I am so glad this forum was created. It was quite hard to request op's, suggestions or comments to the people involved in the Mexican categories and/or look up for precedents or conventions all over the Wiki talk pages.
Now, back to business. I've worked mostly with bios and I think we need to come up with several conventions. Feel free to add your own. Ruiz 02:16, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The participants of this project have already reached a consensus about this. See the relevant discussion Talk:Mexican Executive Cabinet
Secretary of XYZ and Secretariat of XYZ have came up as the convention to be used. ( Hajor, Ruiz, Rune.welsh and Abögarp have voted in favor.)
-- Vizcarra 22:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Have you decided something about how to translate "Estado de México"? I live in Toluca and I am writing some articles for this state but I am confused because the article for the state is "Mexico State" but when you look for specific cities the reference is to "State of Mexico". I think both of these are the best options, personally I prefer Mexico State for a translation. I consider we must get a standard form and probably a task for this project will be to do all the corresponding changes. Judithsq Judith Soto 17:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
ALIANZA POR MEXICO (PRI/PVEM) ALIANZA POR EL BIEN DE TODOS (PRD/PT/Convergencia)
There is a low-intensity debate over whether to use "Spanish" vs. "Spaniards" in articles related to the era of Spanish colonial rule over Mexico and Latin America. We are specifically talking about the Spanish conquest of Mexico and related articles such as Aztec. However, the general question applies to any article related to the Spanish colonization of the Americas starting from the time of the conquistadors through the end of the colonial era.
Some Wikipedians argue that the modern-day term "Spanish" should be used (as in "the Spanish conquered Tenochtitlan in 1521"). Others argue that, whatever the modern-day term may be for people from the country of Spain, the term "Spaniards" is more appropriate when referring to the conquistadors.
Your opinion is solicited.
IMHO almost a non-issue, except that within an article, consistency is definitely required for purposes of readability. Bridesmill 22:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Disagree that this is a "non-issue" for two reasons. First, User:Nanhuatzin and I had more or less agreed to use "Spaniard" over User:Rockero's suggestion that we use "Spanish". Then User:Madman2001 made a mass conversion of "Spaniard" to "Spanish" in the Spanish conquest of Mexico article without consulting anybody. So now that article uses "Spanish" and most of the other Aztec-related articles use "Spaniard" primarily and "Spanish" here and there where I haven't changed it to "Spaniard" yet.
We need to agree so that we can push all the articles to one usage and then document that usage clearly so that newly arrived editors won't undo all the work.
I was pretty annoyed at Madman2001's edits because it undid all the work that I had done changing "Spanish" to "Spaniards". I'm sure he'd be none too happy if I undid all his work by changing it back unless there was a clear consensus that "Spaniards" is the preferred usage.
-- Richard 04:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Why does it all have to be the same? That is the same argument as 'should all spelling be American or UK English' That's what I mean by non-issue. If things are mass reverted one way or the other, invariably people are going to be annoyed (q.v. Jewelry/ Jewellery) Both forms are technically correct, if one is considered 'off' in one place, odds are good the other is not preferred somewhere else. Consistency within an article should suffice. Bridesmill 02:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Additional thought - two people agreeing to change all usage of a word in WP seems a bit bold; then two people coming along & disagreeing - not exactly unusual or unexpected; one of the reasons I would suggest stick with article consistency. Bridesmill 02:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I have to confess that I can't remember whether it was predominantly "Spanish" or "Spaniard" before I started editing. I do know that some articles said "Spanish", some said "Spaniard" and some had both.
I think it was predominantly "Spaniard" but I can't say that I actually counted every instance of each word. I started changing them all to "Spaniard" because Nanahuatzin (a Mexican editor) was using that.
My main concern is that the Hernan Cortes article now says "Spanish" but all the Aztec-related articles predominantly say "Spaniard" with a few instances of "Spanish" here and there. I don't think this kind of inconsistency is professional.
-- Richard 04:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
There is a consensual rule of thumb already in use for cities and states in Mexico. (See: WP:Naming conventions/city names/Mexico). While this rule has been applied successfully, there are two issues that require our attention: (1) an inconsistency in regard to boroughs vis-à-vis municipalities; and (2) the ambiguity with regards to metropolitan areas vis-à-vis core cities. These will be explained below. Please participate by expressing your opinion, agreement or disagreement so that we can reach a consensus.
As of now, the naming convention is [[Borough, D.F]]. I find this convention misleading for several reasons:
My proposal would be either to use [[Borough (D.F.)]], [[Borough (Mexico City)]], [[Borough (Federal District)]], or even (though I don't particularly like this one given that Mexico City is not known as ''Mexico, D.F.'' in English) [[Borough, Mexico, D.F.]]. Alternatives that other users want to propose are acceptable, as long as they do not imply that delegaciones are the equivalent of autonomous cities within the Federal District. The Federal District is formed by only one city: Mexico City. The city and the Federal District are coextensive jurisdictionally, constitutionally and administratively (in spite of the fact that the southern portion of the Federal District is not urbanized).
-- theDúnadan 20:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC) 18:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
It has been suggested that single names should be used for the articles of the metro areas or redirect to them. For example, that Mexico City should refer (or redirect) to Greater Mexico City; Monterrey to Monterrey metropolitan area, et al., and that the article about the city and municipality be renamed as Monterrey (city) or Monterrey (municipality), et al., (if coterminus).
Currently, certain cities, like Puebla and Guadalajara haver articles with names like "Guadalajara, Jalisco", or "Puebla, Puebla", which make it possible for it to be precise. "Guadalajara, Jalisco" can only mean the municipality of Guadalajara, and thus the article clearly must talk about that municipality.
However, other cities like Monterrey and Mexico City have title names like "Monterrey" and "Mexico City", which make it unclear to the reader exactly what they are going to talk about. In the case of Mexico City, will the article talk about the Metropolitan Zone of the Valley of Mexico, or will it talk about the Federal District? How do we know what information is being looked by the reader, and what can editors expect to add or subtract from those articles?
The term "Monterrey" refers, colloquially, to the metropolitan area, and officially, to the municipality. In the same way, the term "Mexico City" refers, colloquially, to the metropolitan area, and officially to the Federal District. In other words, the term means two things, and the article should only talk about one.
To make matters worse, articles about both the colloquial and the official meanings already exists (i.e., there is an article called "Monterrey (Municipality)", and another article called "Metropolitan Area of Monterrey", plus the article called "Monterrey". Same happens for Mexico City, there is an article called "Distrito Federal", another one about the Metropolitan area, and another one called "Mexico City").
The information is presented redundantly in wikipedia, it is also disorganized, and because of the above, innacurrate in any account. A solution must arise. It is clear that one of the three articles (for both cases) must dissapear in a way. It is clear there only be two articles: one for the official meaning, and one for the colloquial meaning (i.e., one for the city itself, be it municipality, core of the municipality, or Federal District ("Federal District", or "Monterrey (Municipality)", and one for the metro area).
The question now arises, what happens to the already existing Third Article ("Monterrey" or "Mexico City")?
There are three proposals:
Whatever proposal is chosen, it must be exported to other cities, like Tijuana, Ciudad Juarez, Tampico, Torreon, etc... It would be best if information about Mexican cities was standarized.
Hari Seldon 22:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The arguments in favor of this convention (as proposed by Hari Seldon) are:
I object the proposal based on the following:
My proposal is that, in spite of a common colloquial (mis)usage of the terms, simple names should refer first to the cities, then to municipalities (if they are not coextensive or coterminus) and then to metropolitan areas. That means that Monterrey should be about the city/municipality (being coextensive) and Monterrey metropolitan area should be about the conurbation. In the case in which cities are not coextensive with the municipality, this distinction should be made: Tijuana, for the city, Tijuana (municipality) and Tijuana metropolitan area for the metro area. This is a particular case, in that the municipality of Tijuana contains several localidades, pueblos and ciudades, of which Tijuana is only one. The metropolitan area includes several of these, but not all (since the municipality is very large). So is the case with other large municipalities in Baja California Sur, and to a lesser extent in the rest of the northwestern states. In other words, precision is better, we inform the reader of all.
-- theDúnadan 20:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
[In fact I would even extend that to states, but that is differnet matter, because it was already decided to follow the American convention of "City, State" where the state takes precedence, in spite that the Spanish/Mexican convention in encyclopedias is that cities take precedence: articles are usually named as follows: Puebla; Puebla, estado de; Puebla, municipio de. That is, the city took precedence over all. And since this particular issue has already been discussed, I won't reopen a debate unless several users wish to do so] -- theDúnadan 20:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I have presented my arguments, Dunadan, you have presented yours. I wish to see what other people think of them and then take a course of action. Hari Seldon 22:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, as a matter of fact there is no exactly Translation to English or a exactly definition of what is the difference between the County (Municipio), that were are going to say is the territory and the Principal town of the county, that is not the only town on the county.
For me, I would say to explain it better it is like a small state, for example we have the State of Mexico and the Capital is Toluca, where the the powers of government are located, we have: Governor State deputies State Supreme Court.
And we have the municipio, a smaller territory than the state, and a lot of Municipios or counties make the state territory, and they have their own authorities at their level , and we can call them Municipal or County Authorities, and they are located in the principal town of the county. (There is not only one village or small town located at the county So in order to differentiate the territory from the town, we can call the town by the name of capital of the county. Guillermo7777 ( talk) 21:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The name of “muncipality” comes from a historical and iuridical source.In many latinamerican countries use to name to this reality with the same name. First, Historical view. This term comes from the colonial age. When Hernan Cortes came to the Veracruz´s harbour he leaded the first governmental action with the local council´s helping. And of course in Spain they use to do the same. In México the township term is presented in the 1834 Constitution and afterwards in the 1857 Constitution. In the 1917 Constitution it recommends to the citizens to contribute with the gobernmental local spenses. Secondly, the iuridical view. The 1917 Constitution put the twonship in the central place of the political and administrative organization. The township ever took a sovereignty and particular individuality in front of the others political powers. I Think the Municipality is a historical and iuridical cathegory to name a reality that comes from the contitutional low and it has electoral effects in Mexico. That why the using of this word would be, townshipo to name the town that is the main city where there are the political power with the municipal council. The Municipality to whole territory that covers all the communities whitin it. Another word is District, and it has an electoral goals. I agree with the previous writer in saying that many towns in Mexico we use to refer them with the adjective of State wich belong to. For example we use to say Acambay, Mexico State; Lerma, Mexico State. With these names we name the cities o town villages but at the same time we refer to the township. Filiberto022 ( talk) 23:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)