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{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.} FPAS is a tendentious and uncivil administrator whose antagonistic, combative comments and tactics are combined with an overzealous, extreme and often incorrect application of Wikipedia image policies and guidelines. Editors and administrators who disagree with him are subject not only to his lack of good faith and incivility, but also to his tactics of retaliation and intimidation. This combination creates an extremely hostile environment for all editors who disagree with him. FPAS ignores community input and consensus in favor of his own narrow viewpoint, and has ignored community input on his behavior. FPAS has circumvented policies by deliberately orphaning images to then use a speedy deletion process rather than IFD, and has even edit warred in an attempt to keep the images orphaned.
While a lot of FPAS's image work is indeed valuable, this is far outweighed by his over-aggressively hostile, bad-faith, accusatory and retaliatory manner when dealing with editors who disagree with his views of image policy and the value of images in Wikipedia articles. The main problem is the manner in which he goes about things, even if every image call he makes is correct, this does not excuse his incivility or violations of other policies. This behavior needs to stop immediately, or FPAS needs to step back from IFD discussions entirely and focus on other areas of Wikipedia.
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
Removes images from multiple articles, then puts them up for deletion as “orphaned”, without disclosure of prior edits. Then edit wars to keep image out of aricles. [2] [3]
Example of orphaning an image from several articles, [4] [5] [6] [7] then immediately declaring it to be a candidate for Speedy Deletion - because it's an orphaned image [8], a clear abuse of process. There are many examples of this tactic to short-circuit IFD by FP.
FP also edit warred to keep the image out of the articles: [9] [10] [11] and [12] even changing the image that is not the subject of the article [13]. Again, there are more examples of this.
This is an example from a single IFD.
Conqueror comments.
On this single IFD page alone, FP made 38 non-minor edits between 8/12 and 8/18, ATBE 3.33 hours. While FP commented on six different IFD's on this page, a vast majority of his comments were on HMS Conqueror (24 or 63%).
This single page IFD page aslo includes one of the many accusations of FP submitting one of his "retaliatory IFD's" against another editor, [42].
Upon the closing of the Conqueror IFD, which went against FP's wishes, he launched an extremely hostile, bad-faith assault against the closing admin, essentially blackmailing the admin by threatening to have him desysopped if the IFD closure wasn't withdrawn, because the admin had mistakenly uploaded other unrelated potential copyvio images months in the past. [43] [44]
When the admin did not bow before this inappropriate pressure, FP tried further intimidation, [45] [46] [47] - while trying to mask his tactics of intimidation: [48] [49]; when this failed to force the admin to retract the IFD results, FP then made good on his threat to take the matter before AN, where he posted a totally inappropriate, biased and inflammatory section title, with bad faith, uncivil accusations. [50]
FP failed to convince anyone that the admin had purposely violated policy, they instead found that it was a simple mistake. FP continued his personal attacks and bad-faith accusations long after the accused admin had admitted and apologized for his mistakes, and attempted to explain what had happend and why.
Personal attack and completely uncivil lack of good faith, further pressure and threats: [51] [52] [53] [54]
More personal attacks and threats: [55] [56]
FP continued his hostile and aggressive comments even in the face of community consensus against his proposals and conclusions about the admin's behavior. The AN only served to bring to light FP's own poor behavior, where he was heavily criticized; criticism which he summarily dismissed or igonred.
This is only one example of FP's tactics of intimidation. His continued denial of community input and refusal to modify his behavior have led to this RfC.
Although FP was mainly correct about the two images in question, his methods, strategy, and conclusions are appalling.
{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}
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An editor, and especially an administrator in a controversial discussion must be able to distinguish between his or her own opinion and an objective judgment of the situation. The most objective way we have here on Wikipedia to judge fairly any editor’s action is through one of several, community-based, decision/discussion making processes. No editor or administrator should consider himself judge and jury as in these opinionated comments: “You are a liar and serial copy right offender” Or these kinds of judgments based on personal opinion: “I want you desysoped” And this isn’t the Wild West or Chicago in the 30’s. "Too bad. I guess you just missed the last chance of coming clean”
Judging another editor, and then based on that judgment assuming that that this now gives one the right to name call and threaten can only cause escalation of the initial problems. In this case [63] the editor attacked remained calm and tried to explain his situation, although the attacks continued. I would like to suggest that an administrator must show better judgment - must be able to clearly understand an individual judgment is opinion and not fact. At no time by our own standards on civility, are name-calling and threatening even remotely appropriate. An administrator who thinks that the personal analysis and judgment of a situation gives the right to treat another editor in a way that is less than respectful might consider taking a break from such situations for awhile.
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I'm not going to comment on the civility concerns, and there may be some areas where FPAS has made mistakes in process and behaviour, but some of this RfC consists of evidence which doesn't appear to understand the situations in which the edits took place, and I am going to try and outline some of this background.
For example, the "Tendentiousness" topic on the IfD above - this is an editor trying to argue a point of policy with other editors (some of whom don't appear to actually understand the point he is trying to make) - it's not "tendentious" in the slightest. Apart from the very last example, he's civil throughout. What point is this paragraph trying to make? - because it provides no evidence of problematical behaviour at all. Also the sentence "Removes images from multiple articles, then puts them up for deletion as “orphaned”, without disclosure of prior edits." Well, here's news - when you remove non-compliant images from articles, they quite often do become orphaned - which is a reason for deletion. Strange that. I would also point out that WP:3RR clearly contains an exemption for removal of non-compliant copyrighted images.
Sadly, as per usual on Wikipedia these days, making these comments is probably pointless; the "Free Encyclopedia" ideal was trampled over a long time ago, and these days most people blithely accept dozens of editors plastering hundreds of non-compliant stolen images over our articles. Unfortunately, the amount of crap that is guaranteed to come your way (typical example, typical comment)) if you try making those articles compliant with WP:NFCC means that there are very few people trying to stem the tide of copyright violations, because they burn out quickly. Something really needs to be done properly about this - Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not people's personal webspace. I personally had a two month break because I realised I was getting to the point where I might say or do something I regretted and I am much the better for it. Perhaps FPAS could consider the same, or at least disengage from fair-use activities for a while.
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Is this the same RFC that Fut perf was threatened with because they speedy deleted some un-free images? Since the deletion of the images in question was endorsed at DRV and to the best of my knowledge there is no pattern of Fut Perf's deletions being regularly overturned reference to images in this RFC is specious and a waste of the community's time.
Fut Perf deals with serious problems in many contentious areas and does on the main a fine job of inserting clue and handling multiple sock puppetry in nationalist and ethnic articles. Like many admins dealing with this kind of stuff they occasionally lose their cool but we should be applauding their overall contribution instead of hanging them out to dry for a small section of their output. Fut perf is an outstanding admin and, if we are serious about avoiding admin burn out more of us should help out in the difficult and contentious areas instead of critising those who already take on this onerous work.
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The Arbitration committee said in Abu_badali:
Comments such as
and this series: [65], [66], [67], [68]
Seem to run counter to that admonition from the Arbcom
Additionally, non-image comments such as:
and
have no place in the English Wikipedia.
I would encourage Future Perfect that if he finds image work too stressful for his temperament, that he refrain from such confrontational situations in the future.
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Er I've never done one of these before, so you'll have to forgive any faux pas. My view is simply, why does Fut Perf need to be an administrator? I really do mean that as a question and not in a nasty way, I get that deleting non-free images is his "thing" and that's laudable. But if that's just his thing then why does he have to be an admin to do it? Couldn't he remain a normal editor and just flag up non-free images to other admins? Ryan4314 ( talk) 20:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC) reply
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Personally I think the tendentious comment was pushing it, it was really irrelevant; there were equally opposing arguments for those opposing deletion. As I personally see it, the main issues are the lack of civility, the edit warring to remove images, browbeating those who disagree with him and the retaliation against those who disagree with him. I think the main issue is that FPAS has some issues with civility, no-one is after his head, contrary to what he himself seems to think, they would just like him to recognise that he has a problem and to do something about it. The only reason we're here is that he doesn't seem to realise that he has a problem. His edit history is replete with comments from other editors urging him to modify his behaviour.
What I did find surprising is those admins who support him, seem to excuse his incivility.
A lot of the time he is right about images, when he gets it wrong he appears to be unable to accept that he is mistaken. He is often right but goes about his mission in completely the wrong way. Justin talk 21:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC) reply
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#
Jerry
talk ¤
count/logs 22:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
reply
A general comment is that no editor should place a conditions on taking part in an RFC. That is not embracing the process, telling the community to [69] "go f*** itself" is completely unacceptable.
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I think we have a a few issues here, but I will try and be brief. I think the fact that FPS is open to accusations of retaliation - the fact that such accusations can have been made by several people apparently independently - means that he has sailed a bit too close to the "involved admin" wind and if he was to go back down to close hauled or further he might make a bit more headway. There's no smoke without fire, even if the fire is misidentified.
I do think it's fair per WP:BOLD to remove non-NFCC-compliant images from articles and then tag for speedy deletion as orphaned. But I don't think edit warring over it is fair, in cases such as this where the 3RR "unquestionably" rider did not apply IMO (and while I appreciate that this isn't what WP:3RR says, the argument to delete at IFD was based on the two NFCC that do not qualify the image for speedy deletion by CSD I7 - presumably because they're very rarely not open to debate).
I think the civility issues are very significant. We should not have admins that call other users "jerks" (and so on) and I am very concerned that others - and particularly other admins - appear to defend this. Burnout is not an excuse for any user to become uncivil, and that goes especially for admins. If this is burnout, then it strikes me that the best course of action for FPS to take would be to take a break from image deletion.
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Speedy deletions were permitted in the first place for admins in order to avoid needless discussion where there would obviously be consensus for the action. If there is significant dissent over a particular use of this process, it would be better to allow an *fD (in this case IfD) to take place to achieve consensus. If the deletion is justified, the discussion should reach the same conclusion. Particularly, a unilateral action should not be taken against the current consensus of a debate in progress. If there is an issue with that, then a good solution is to bring the debate to wider attention.
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I believe that sometimes, a core issue gets forgotten here: This is a free content project. That had gotten so widely forgotten, in fact, that the Wikimedia Foundation had to step in and remind us [70]. This resolution is quite clear in that use of nonfree content must be minimal. It must be essential and unequivocally necessary, not simply helpful or pretty. I know this is a tough pill for some to swallow, as articles with images are better looking than those without. But for a free content project like this one, that's simply not enough. FPAS enforces this resolution as it should be enforced, taking a skeptical, "Is this really necessary?" approach to nonfree content. That's exactly what "minimal" means, and a WMF resolution cannot be overridden by local or even project-wide consensus.
It is true that FPAS has lost his cool in some cases, and while I don't specifically condone that, I wonder where the RfCs are against those who have violated policy by gratuitous use of disallowed content, and then harassed FPAS for enforcing the policy that forbids it? Overall he does good work in thankless areas, so FPAS, I'll say it here—thanks for handling those tough situations as well as you do.
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Fut perf has clearly been rude and bullying in his interactions with many editors. As MBisanz pointed out above, this is not the sort of behavior that should be employed by someone who is enforcing complex and confusing rules that are often open to varying interpretation. Furthermore, many editors, like myself, feel the non-free content rules are often arbitrary, silly, and unnecessary, and that overly rigorous enforcement of these rules is sometimes a form of deliberate disruption, comparable to Slowdown strike#Rule-book slowdown.
Someone who's going to make the enforcement of these rules his major task on Wikipedia needs deal diplomatically with editors who hold different views of the rules in question and who object to his many, many deletions of valued content. Fut perf has shown himself to be quite uninterested in diplomacy. If anything, he seems to enjoy being rude and bullying. RedSpruce ( talk) 00:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC) reply
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Note: After User:Future Perfect at Sunrise's request. He attempted to have User:Islander "reign" me and User:Elampon in (who was scared away by the bullying of biting-admin User:Future Perfect at Sunrise here) before (Sorry Islander to bother you again, but I've now got both these guys edit-warring on my own user talk. Could you do me a favour and reign them in?). User:Future Perfect at Sunrise and User:Moreschi often cooperated in blocking other editors (in articles where User:Future Perfect at Sunrise was involved) he admits that somewhere, I believe to User:Kékrōps. ktr ( talk) 21:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC) reply
Policies such as Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria or foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy, if they apply to particular content, cannot be overruled by consensus. However, the question of whether particular content is in violation of policy may be freely discussed and decisions reached. Such decisions are subject to the dispute resolution procedures; decisions which are believed to violate policy can be appealed.
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In the interests of full disclosure, I have had disagreements with Fut Perf in the past (to the best of my knowledge confined to the IFD pages). I'm placing this here because I have no "dog in the fight" here, but I understand my past interactions could be taken as "involvement".
There are a few significant issues here. The first is Fut Perf's view on what should be deleted. His views, while I believe are not completely in line with Wikipedia policy, are just that: views. They hold no substance on their own and are a topic of academic debate. No big deal there. Reasonable people can disagree reasonably about things and that's what talk pages are for.
The second is the application of such views, which is where most of the problem lies. I concur that the misleading nominations and comments were out of line and should be atoned for in some manner. I suggest just taking some time off from the IFD "circuit", take a deep breath and just let them go for a while. We'll be fine without your contributions for a few weeks.
The third is the most troubling, that these issues are the result of an admin, who is supposed to know better. C'mon man. We have our disagreements, but some of those comments are WAY out of line for an admin. Intentionally running someone off of Wikipedia? That goes completely against the whole Wikipedia concept. Furthermore, to continue to hold the view that insulting a newbie to Wikipedia and driving him off was in some way appropriate is so far out of bounds for an admin that sanctions of some kind should follow.:
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See that line under the title? Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia? There are clear policies on non-free content, and FPS is doing more than his fair share at making sure they're enforced properly. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy; you do not need to have three forms signed in triplicate, notarized, and apostilled by the embassy of Kyrgyzstan before doing something. Stifle ( talk) 08:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC) reply
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I have known Future Perfect for a little over three years now ever since our first altercations over some articles I created. As an editor, Future Perfect has provided Wikipedia with countless constructive edits that many users today appreciate and continue to appreciate. As an administrator, Future Perfect has served as a positive force towards ensuring that articles adhere to Wikipedia policies.
Unfortunately, I have recently noticed moments where Future Perfect appears to enforce Wikipedia policies to such an austere extent as to hamper healthy discussions between users. At times, it seems as though Future Perfect exhibits a "my way or the highway" attitude regardless if such a mentality may in fact galvanize users towards questioning his "authority".
On the issue of civility, I find it odd that an experienced administrator like FPS would engage in disputes that only seem to mitigate his ability to remain calm. Moreover, I find it somewhat disappointing for Future Perfect to utilize "colorful" language in situations that require constructive collaboration. No administrator should lose his/her cool over something as simple as a linguistic map, even if he/she makes intelligent points throughout a debate. Even though I understand that there is no such thing as a perfect administrator, users are concerned about the extent to which Future Perfect exercises his "position" as a "rogue administrator".
Personally, I have nothing against Future Perfect. I wish him all the best in his endeavors and hope that users will come to appreciate his contributions. However, it would seem helpful to suggest that he either tone down his "respect my authority" attitude or honorably step down from his position as an administrator if he is unable to deal with users who simply disagree with him. Deucalionite ( talk) 19:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC) reply
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I have not known FP very much, or I rather used to not knowing him. I only knew he was an admin and often noticed his very positive and constructive edits in many articles. And also I had noticed some good work in banning disruptive users (Emperordarius for example). Until I was called in a discussion about a linguistic map of ancient Greece (in fact, a template: Template talk:Ancient Greek dialects#Macedonia (what else) which was later moved). Of course, it is about an issue that we are not going to discuss here, but I saw a large number of the things FP is accused of here: 1)Repeating the same thing "so that the others understand it": "Sigh. Repeated for the millionth-and-sixth time." 2)"Like it or not" style:"We are, however, presenting ancient Macedonian as not part of the topic area of mainstream ancient Greek dialectology. Which is a fact, like it or not, period", "(guess what, it says "Macedonia" where you wouldn't like to see it)", "And "make it look so or this will just go on" sounds very much like a threat of continued disruption. You don't really want to sound like this in a Wikipedia discussion, it's not good for you. You are in no position to give me threats or ultimatums; I've humored your antics for long enough and I'm not going to create yet a fourth map." 3)Not being civil:"It's the f..ing Cambridge Encyclopedia of Ancient Languages" Also, I realised that internatinally accepted Greek scholars (like Babiniotis), that do not match FP's views are excluded as nationalist propagandists. Later on, I checked there was a problem with FP in another linguistic map in Talk:Greece. A user presented a list of very reasonable arguments, backing the removal of a "minorities" linguistic map. The answer was :"I've already discussed this in the past. No further comments from me here and now." Also, we saw in a large extent the following: 1)whoever opposses FP's views is a POV pushing nationalist and comments offending the Greeks as a nation and Greece as a country:"If it wasn't for the permanent semi-vandalistic POV onslaught of which yours is just the latest part, who knows, I might even get around doing it some day.", "About the Macedonian naming issues, no further comment. I've had enough of the ridiculous shenanigans of the Greek POV crowd with their ideological obsessions.", "Greek people are generally allergic to it in quite an irrational way.", "all with the intent of softening the oh-so-horrible implication that Greece might have minorities", "Of course, it's difficult to do anything constructive as long as there's a baying mob of POV-pushers permanently attacking this or that of the maps I've already made." (here, note that the "mob" is about ten users, if not more) 2)"like it or not" style and threats :"Your objection about Arvanitic shows how little you've read up on the issue", " Yes, it's slightly larger, by about 30% in N-S direction, I guess. Oh the horror. Anything else? (Oh, and try to get your facts straight. I did make the corrections asked for by Kekrops. That was all about an earlier draft. Unlike certain others, Kekrops is actually capable of collaborating constructively on factual details where necessary.)", "Will you finally get it into your skull that THIS IS NOT A DEMOGRAPHIC MAP?", "Kapnisma, I respect you as an editor but you will hopefully understand that I am extremely tired of this debate. It is impossible to have this discussion as long as it's being held hostage by people like Crossthets or Hectorian", "Wrong as usual", "Hectorian, I think I've advised you of WP:POINT a couple times before, when you've used this same tactics of tit-for-tat threats, so I'm not going to bother explaining its meaning again to you. You have had ample warning", "Learn history" 3)Concerning an RfC, and also this one, which FP is clearly ignoring and not respecting, thus disrespecting the entire community:"Dude, not a user conduct RfC (although one about you might not be such a bad idea). An article content RfC, of course. Read up on the process." 4) Lack of civility (towards the end): "This is just too stupid. You are being deliberately obtuse, again", "READ. THE. FUCKING. LITERATURE. There is just a tiny chance that you might actually find out the answers to your questions.", "Is your reading comprehension really that poor, are you just trolling?", "I trust even Hectorian will be able to decipher that. Or is the idea too complex for you to understand?" FP was stating throughout the discussion that there was solid consensus for more than half a year. When users he stated agreed with him appeared in the talk page and disagreed, I decided to check an other talk page related to the map (dating Feb 2008). To be brief, I'll only state that a number of similar comments were made ("the speak Macedonian, like it or not", "WP:MOSMAC should go to hell", "ARBCOM bans related to Macedonia are easy this days",etc.), practically excluding Greek editors from discussing how the map should be.Only a group of editors that very usually co-operate with FP remained, stating that they are proud to have been able to battle nationalism. When myself I called a fellow Wikipedian who was interested in the case, I myself received a threat.
I strongly believe that admins should be bright example to all Wikipedians. they should be neutral, and should not (ab)use their powers in matters that they are related to, and instead call an un-related admin to resolve the issue. Being an admin does not mean threatening or being uncivil. The second worst thing in all this, is that all this negative attitude continued, while this RfC had already begun, thus completely ignoring the community. And there's the worst thing: Let's revise Wikipedia's title: "The Free Encyclopedia, where everyone can edit". One can ignore rules, but not this one! None should send someone out and also state it was the right thing to do, because their level of English is not perfect, and get away with it. This is breaking of Wikipedia's foundations, and really the worst example for a wanna-be admin, as admninship is not tyranny. In general, FP, being in a safe position, is abusing his power to state that most of the community is less clever than him. That is totally unacceptable. All stated above are totally unacceptable. Yes,FP did usual admin staff aside of these, but that was his job. I recommend that FP should either "find his way" according to the remarks of the community, either step down, or lose adminship for one year, at the end of which another RfC should happen to question whether he should become an admin again. It is a shame that we reached this, when FP can be enormously constructive.But, I'm afraid what needs to be done has to be done.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 21:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC) reply
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Sometimes, people are being stupid. Sometimes their writing is crap. Many of these times, everyone will know it.
However, it is not productive to go and call people stupid, and to say their writing is crap. You will probably not convince them, and there aren't many other reasons to say these things. The result is a production of lots of heat, and no light. Lots of drama, but no figuring-out of what the problem is and how to resolve it.
The solution is not to stop calling a spade a spade – it is important that we are frank and earnest about the problems that contributors have, so that we may resolve them. The solution is to offer constructive criticism. Don't say "your writing is crap", say "your syntax is a bit odd, you should use the passive voice less". Don't say "you're stupid", say "I'm not sure you quite understand the policy".
In particular, don't say "in-universe, who writes this crap?", say "marking as in-universe", or, even better, "fixing in-universe style". There wasn't any need to tack on "who writes this crap?", and it produces a whole bunch of drama.
Earnest discussion and civility are not mutually exclusive. It's very simple to avoid the poisonous tone of some discussions, merely by discussing the issue at hand, without taking a snipe at every opportunity. If we can lose the confrontational attitude, quit sniping at each other, remain calm, and discuss issues sensibly, then Wikipedia discussions will be much nicer.
Some food for thought, somewhat related to the discussion. — Werdna • talk 01:42, 21 October 2008 (UTC) reply
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This took me a while to get through, but I have arrived at a conclusion after looking at all the viewpoints and appropriate diffs. There are two issues at hand in this RfC, those being User:Future Perfect at Sunrise's actions in regards to fair use images, and his civility in relation to them. I know how troublesome on both sides image issues can be, and that it's a very sensitive issue, so of course there's no ruling on that taking place here.
The consensus on the image appropriateness front leans in FPS's favor. While there are some things that both sides could improve on, overall we are a free content encyclopedia, which is where his actions stem from. I ask that FPS try and refrain from engaging in edit warring on IFD/orphan speedy issues so that drama is reduced in those areas, but otherwise sanctions do not appear needed. As for civility, this is a greater concern to editors, and the consensus is not in FPS's favor. There are some who agree with his actions but are thrown off by the civility issues, and just because one works in a difficult area does not give a user the right to attack another. As a result, I caution FPS to be more civil and to avoid personal attacks, on the image front as well as off. I feel that if this user can be civil and understanding while still dealing with questionable images, everything will ideally turn out fine.
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{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.} FPAS is a tendentious and uncivil administrator whose antagonistic, combative comments and tactics are combined with an overzealous, extreme and often incorrect application of Wikipedia image policies and guidelines. Editors and administrators who disagree with him are subject not only to his lack of good faith and incivility, but also to his tactics of retaliation and intimidation. This combination creates an extremely hostile environment for all editors who disagree with him. FPAS ignores community input and consensus in favor of his own narrow viewpoint, and has ignored community input on his behavior. FPAS has circumvented policies by deliberately orphaning images to then use a speedy deletion process rather than IFD, and has even edit warred in an attempt to keep the images orphaned.
While a lot of FPAS's image work is indeed valuable, this is far outweighed by his over-aggressively hostile, bad-faith, accusatory and retaliatory manner when dealing with editors who disagree with his views of image policy and the value of images in Wikipedia articles. The main problem is the manner in which he goes about things, even if every image call he makes is correct, this does not excuse his incivility or violations of other policies. This behavior needs to stop immediately, or FPAS needs to step back from IFD discussions entirely and focus on other areas of Wikipedia.
(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)
Removes images from multiple articles, then puts them up for deletion as “orphaned”, without disclosure of prior edits. Then edit wars to keep image out of aricles. [2] [3]
Example of orphaning an image from several articles, [4] [5] [6] [7] then immediately declaring it to be a candidate for Speedy Deletion - because it's an orphaned image [8], a clear abuse of process. There are many examples of this tactic to short-circuit IFD by FP.
FP also edit warred to keep the image out of the articles: [9] [10] [11] and [12] even changing the image that is not the subject of the article [13]. Again, there are more examples of this.
This is an example from a single IFD.
Conqueror comments.
On this single IFD page alone, FP made 38 non-minor edits between 8/12 and 8/18, ATBE 3.33 hours. While FP commented on six different IFD's on this page, a vast majority of his comments were on HMS Conqueror (24 or 63%).
This single page IFD page aslo includes one of the many accusations of FP submitting one of his "retaliatory IFD's" against another editor, [42].
Upon the closing of the Conqueror IFD, which went against FP's wishes, he launched an extremely hostile, bad-faith assault against the closing admin, essentially blackmailing the admin by threatening to have him desysopped if the IFD closure wasn't withdrawn, because the admin had mistakenly uploaded other unrelated potential copyvio images months in the past. [43] [44]
When the admin did not bow before this inappropriate pressure, FP tried further intimidation, [45] [46] [47] - while trying to mask his tactics of intimidation: [48] [49]; when this failed to force the admin to retract the IFD results, FP then made good on his threat to take the matter before AN, where he posted a totally inappropriate, biased and inflammatory section title, with bad faith, uncivil accusations. [50]
FP failed to convince anyone that the admin had purposely violated policy, they instead found that it was a simple mistake. FP continued his personal attacks and bad-faith accusations long after the accused admin had admitted and apologized for his mistakes, and attempted to explain what had happend and why.
Personal attack and completely uncivil lack of good faith, further pressure and threats: [51] [52] [53] [54]
More personal attacks and threats: [55] [56]
FP continued his hostile and aggressive comments even in the face of community consensus against his proposals and conclusions about the admin's behavior. The AN only served to bring to light FP's own poor behavior, where he was heavily criticized; criticism which he summarily dismissed or igonred.
This is only one example of FP's tactics of intimidation. His continued denial of community input and refusal to modify his behavior have led to this RfC.
Although FP was mainly correct about the two images in question, his methods, strategy, and conclusions are appalling.
{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}
(provide diffs and links to demonstrate that the disputed behavior continued after trying to resolve the dispute)
{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}
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An editor, and especially an administrator in a controversial discussion must be able to distinguish between his or her own opinion and an objective judgment of the situation. The most objective way we have here on Wikipedia to judge fairly any editor’s action is through one of several, community-based, decision/discussion making processes. No editor or administrator should consider himself judge and jury as in these opinionated comments: “You are a liar and serial copy right offender” Or these kinds of judgments based on personal opinion: “I want you desysoped” And this isn’t the Wild West or Chicago in the 30’s. "Too bad. I guess you just missed the last chance of coming clean”
Judging another editor, and then based on that judgment assuming that that this now gives one the right to name call and threaten can only cause escalation of the initial problems. In this case [63] the editor attacked remained calm and tried to explain his situation, although the attacks continued. I would like to suggest that an administrator must show better judgment - must be able to clearly understand an individual judgment is opinion and not fact. At no time by our own standards on civility, are name-calling and threatening even remotely appropriate. An administrator who thinks that the personal analysis and judgment of a situation gives the right to treat another editor in a way that is less than respectful might consider taking a break from such situations for awhile.
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This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.
I'm not going to comment on the civility concerns, and there may be some areas where FPAS has made mistakes in process and behaviour, but some of this RfC consists of evidence which doesn't appear to understand the situations in which the edits took place, and I am going to try and outline some of this background.
For example, the "Tendentiousness" topic on the IfD above - this is an editor trying to argue a point of policy with other editors (some of whom don't appear to actually understand the point he is trying to make) - it's not "tendentious" in the slightest. Apart from the very last example, he's civil throughout. What point is this paragraph trying to make? - because it provides no evidence of problematical behaviour at all. Also the sentence "Removes images from multiple articles, then puts them up for deletion as “orphaned”, without disclosure of prior edits." Well, here's news - when you remove non-compliant images from articles, they quite often do become orphaned - which is a reason for deletion. Strange that. I would also point out that WP:3RR clearly contains an exemption for removal of non-compliant copyrighted images.
Sadly, as per usual on Wikipedia these days, making these comments is probably pointless; the "Free Encyclopedia" ideal was trampled over a long time ago, and these days most people blithely accept dozens of editors plastering hundreds of non-compliant stolen images over our articles. Unfortunately, the amount of crap that is guaranteed to come your way (typical example, typical comment)) if you try making those articles compliant with WP:NFCC means that there are very few people trying to stem the tide of copyright violations, because they burn out quickly. Something really needs to be done properly about this - Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not people's personal webspace. I personally had a two month break because I realised I was getting to the point where I might say or do something I regretted and I am much the better for it. Perhaps FPAS could consider the same, or at least disengage from fair-use activities for a while.
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Is this the same RFC that Fut perf was threatened with because they speedy deleted some un-free images? Since the deletion of the images in question was endorsed at DRV and to the best of my knowledge there is no pattern of Fut Perf's deletions being regularly overturned reference to images in this RFC is specious and a waste of the community's time.
Fut Perf deals with serious problems in many contentious areas and does on the main a fine job of inserting clue and handling multiple sock puppetry in nationalist and ethnic articles. Like many admins dealing with this kind of stuff they occasionally lose their cool but we should be applauding their overall contribution instead of hanging them out to dry for a small section of their output. Fut perf is an outstanding admin and, if we are serious about avoiding admin burn out more of us should help out in the difficult and contentious areas instead of critising those who already take on this onerous work.
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The Arbitration committee said in Abu_badali:
Comments such as
and this series: [65], [66], [67], [68]
Seem to run counter to that admonition from the Arbcom
Additionally, non-image comments such as:
and
have no place in the English Wikipedia.
I would encourage Future Perfect that if he finds image work too stressful for his temperament, that he refrain from such confrontational situations in the future.
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Er I've never done one of these before, so you'll have to forgive any faux pas. My view is simply, why does Fut Perf need to be an administrator? I really do mean that as a question and not in a nasty way, I get that deleting non-free images is his "thing" and that's laudable. But if that's just his thing then why does he have to be an admin to do it? Couldn't he remain a normal editor and just flag up non-free images to other admins? Ryan4314 ( talk) 20:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC) reply
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Personally I think the tendentious comment was pushing it, it was really irrelevant; there were equally opposing arguments for those opposing deletion. As I personally see it, the main issues are the lack of civility, the edit warring to remove images, browbeating those who disagree with him and the retaliation against those who disagree with him. I think the main issue is that FPAS has some issues with civility, no-one is after his head, contrary to what he himself seems to think, they would just like him to recognise that he has a problem and to do something about it. The only reason we're here is that he doesn't seem to realise that he has a problem. His edit history is replete with comments from other editors urging him to modify his behaviour.
What I did find surprising is those admins who support him, seem to excuse his incivility.
A lot of the time he is right about images, when he gets it wrong he appears to be unable to accept that he is mistaken. He is often right but goes about his mission in completely the wrong way. Justin talk 21:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC) reply
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#
Jerry
talk ¤
count/logs 22:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
reply
A general comment is that no editor should place a conditions on taking part in an RFC. That is not embracing the process, telling the community to [69] "go f*** itself" is completely unacceptable.
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I think we have a a few issues here, but I will try and be brief. I think the fact that FPS is open to accusations of retaliation - the fact that such accusations can have been made by several people apparently independently - means that he has sailed a bit too close to the "involved admin" wind and if he was to go back down to close hauled or further he might make a bit more headway. There's no smoke without fire, even if the fire is misidentified.
I do think it's fair per WP:BOLD to remove non-NFCC-compliant images from articles and then tag for speedy deletion as orphaned. But I don't think edit warring over it is fair, in cases such as this where the 3RR "unquestionably" rider did not apply IMO (and while I appreciate that this isn't what WP:3RR says, the argument to delete at IFD was based on the two NFCC that do not qualify the image for speedy deletion by CSD I7 - presumably because they're very rarely not open to debate).
I think the civility issues are very significant. We should not have admins that call other users "jerks" (and so on) and I am very concerned that others - and particularly other admins - appear to defend this. Burnout is not an excuse for any user to become uncivil, and that goes especially for admins. If this is burnout, then it strikes me that the best course of action for FPS to take would be to take a break from image deletion.
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Speedy deletions were permitted in the first place for admins in order to avoid needless discussion where there would obviously be consensus for the action. If there is significant dissent over a particular use of this process, it would be better to allow an *fD (in this case IfD) to take place to achieve consensus. If the deletion is justified, the discussion should reach the same conclusion. Particularly, a unilateral action should not be taken against the current consensus of a debate in progress. If there is an issue with that, then a good solution is to bring the debate to wider attention.
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I believe that sometimes, a core issue gets forgotten here: This is a free content project. That had gotten so widely forgotten, in fact, that the Wikimedia Foundation had to step in and remind us [70]. This resolution is quite clear in that use of nonfree content must be minimal. It must be essential and unequivocally necessary, not simply helpful or pretty. I know this is a tough pill for some to swallow, as articles with images are better looking than those without. But for a free content project like this one, that's simply not enough. FPAS enforces this resolution as it should be enforced, taking a skeptical, "Is this really necessary?" approach to nonfree content. That's exactly what "minimal" means, and a WMF resolution cannot be overridden by local or even project-wide consensus.
It is true that FPAS has lost his cool in some cases, and while I don't specifically condone that, I wonder where the RfCs are against those who have violated policy by gratuitous use of disallowed content, and then harassed FPAS for enforcing the policy that forbids it? Overall he does good work in thankless areas, so FPAS, I'll say it here—thanks for handling those tough situations as well as you do.
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Fut perf has clearly been rude and bullying in his interactions with many editors. As MBisanz pointed out above, this is not the sort of behavior that should be employed by someone who is enforcing complex and confusing rules that are often open to varying interpretation. Furthermore, many editors, like myself, feel the non-free content rules are often arbitrary, silly, and unnecessary, and that overly rigorous enforcement of these rules is sometimes a form of deliberate disruption, comparable to Slowdown strike#Rule-book slowdown.
Someone who's going to make the enforcement of these rules his major task on Wikipedia needs deal diplomatically with editors who hold different views of the rules in question and who object to his many, many deletions of valued content. Fut perf has shown himself to be quite uninterested in diplomacy. If anything, he seems to enjoy being rude and bullying. RedSpruce ( talk) 00:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC) reply
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Note: After User:Future Perfect at Sunrise's request. He attempted to have User:Islander "reign" me and User:Elampon in (who was scared away by the bullying of biting-admin User:Future Perfect at Sunrise here) before (Sorry Islander to bother you again, but I've now got both these guys edit-warring on my own user talk. Could you do me a favour and reign them in?). User:Future Perfect at Sunrise and User:Moreschi often cooperated in blocking other editors (in articles where User:Future Perfect at Sunrise was involved) he admits that somewhere, I believe to User:Kékrōps. ktr ( talk) 21:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC) reply
Policies such as Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria or foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy, if they apply to particular content, cannot be overruled by consensus. However, the question of whether particular content is in violation of policy may be freely discussed and decisions reached. Such decisions are subject to the dispute resolution procedures; decisions which are believed to violate policy can be appealed.
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In the interests of full disclosure, I have had disagreements with Fut Perf in the past (to the best of my knowledge confined to the IFD pages). I'm placing this here because I have no "dog in the fight" here, but I understand my past interactions could be taken as "involvement".
There are a few significant issues here. The first is Fut Perf's view on what should be deleted. His views, while I believe are not completely in line with Wikipedia policy, are just that: views. They hold no substance on their own and are a topic of academic debate. No big deal there. Reasonable people can disagree reasonably about things and that's what talk pages are for.
The second is the application of such views, which is where most of the problem lies. I concur that the misleading nominations and comments were out of line and should be atoned for in some manner. I suggest just taking some time off from the IFD "circuit", take a deep breath and just let them go for a while. We'll be fine without your contributions for a few weeks.
The third is the most troubling, that these issues are the result of an admin, who is supposed to know better. C'mon man. We have our disagreements, but some of those comments are WAY out of line for an admin. Intentionally running someone off of Wikipedia? That goes completely against the whole Wikipedia concept. Furthermore, to continue to hold the view that insulting a newbie to Wikipedia and driving him off was in some way appropriate is so far out of bounds for an admin that sanctions of some kind should follow.:
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See that line under the title? Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia? There are clear policies on non-free content, and FPS is doing more than his fair share at making sure they're enforced properly. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy; you do not need to have three forms signed in triplicate, notarized, and apostilled by the embassy of Kyrgyzstan before doing something. Stifle ( talk) 08:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC) reply
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I have known Future Perfect for a little over three years now ever since our first altercations over some articles I created. As an editor, Future Perfect has provided Wikipedia with countless constructive edits that many users today appreciate and continue to appreciate. As an administrator, Future Perfect has served as a positive force towards ensuring that articles adhere to Wikipedia policies.
Unfortunately, I have recently noticed moments where Future Perfect appears to enforce Wikipedia policies to such an austere extent as to hamper healthy discussions between users. At times, it seems as though Future Perfect exhibits a "my way or the highway" attitude regardless if such a mentality may in fact galvanize users towards questioning his "authority".
On the issue of civility, I find it odd that an experienced administrator like FPS would engage in disputes that only seem to mitigate his ability to remain calm. Moreover, I find it somewhat disappointing for Future Perfect to utilize "colorful" language in situations that require constructive collaboration. No administrator should lose his/her cool over something as simple as a linguistic map, even if he/she makes intelligent points throughout a debate. Even though I understand that there is no such thing as a perfect administrator, users are concerned about the extent to which Future Perfect exercises his "position" as a "rogue administrator".
Personally, I have nothing against Future Perfect. I wish him all the best in his endeavors and hope that users will come to appreciate his contributions. However, it would seem helpful to suggest that he either tone down his "respect my authority" attitude or honorably step down from his position as an administrator if he is unable to deal with users who simply disagree with him. Deucalionite ( talk) 19:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC) reply
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I have not known FP very much, or I rather used to not knowing him. I only knew he was an admin and often noticed his very positive and constructive edits in many articles. And also I had noticed some good work in banning disruptive users (Emperordarius for example). Until I was called in a discussion about a linguistic map of ancient Greece (in fact, a template: Template talk:Ancient Greek dialects#Macedonia (what else) which was later moved). Of course, it is about an issue that we are not going to discuss here, but I saw a large number of the things FP is accused of here: 1)Repeating the same thing "so that the others understand it": "Sigh. Repeated for the millionth-and-sixth time." 2)"Like it or not" style:"We are, however, presenting ancient Macedonian as not part of the topic area of mainstream ancient Greek dialectology. Which is a fact, like it or not, period", "(guess what, it says "Macedonia" where you wouldn't like to see it)", "And "make it look so or this will just go on" sounds very much like a threat of continued disruption. You don't really want to sound like this in a Wikipedia discussion, it's not good for you. You are in no position to give me threats or ultimatums; I've humored your antics for long enough and I'm not going to create yet a fourth map." 3)Not being civil:"It's the f..ing Cambridge Encyclopedia of Ancient Languages" Also, I realised that internatinally accepted Greek scholars (like Babiniotis), that do not match FP's views are excluded as nationalist propagandists. Later on, I checked there was a problem with FP in another linguistic map in Talk:Greece. A user presented a list of very reasonable arguments, backing the removal of a "minorities" linguistic map. The answer was :"I've already discussed this in the past. No further comments from me here and now." Also, we saw in a large extent the following: 1)whoever opposses FP's views is a POV pushing nationalist and comments offending the Greeks as a nation and Greece as a country:"If it wasn't for the permanent semi-vandalistic POV onslaught of which yours is just the latest part, who knows, I might even get around doing it some day.", "About the Macedonian naming issues, no further comment. I've had enough of the ridiculous shenanigans of the Greek POV crowd with their ideological obsessions.", "Greek people are generally allergic to it in quite an irrational way.", "all with the intent of softening the oh-so-horrible implication that Greece might have minorities", "Of course, it's difficult to do anything constructive as long as there's a baying mob of POV-pushers permanently attacking this or that of the maps I've already made." (here, note that the "mob" is about ten users, if not more) 2)"like it or not" style and threats :"Your objection about Arvanitic shows how little you've read up on the issue", " Yes, it's slightly larger, by about 30% in N-S direction, I guess. Oh the horror. Anything else? (Oh, and try to get your facts straight. I did make the corrections asked for by Kekrops. That was all about an earlier draft. Unlike certain others, Kekrops is actually capable of collaborating constructively on factual details where necessary.)", "Will you finally get it into your skull that THIS IS NOT A DEMOGRAPHIC MAP?", "Kapnisma, I respect you as an editor but you will hopefully understand that I am extremely tired of this debate. It is impossible to have this discussion as long as it's being held hostage by people like Crossthets or Hectorian", "Wrong as usual", "Hectorian, I think I've advised you of WP:POINT a couple times before, when you've used this same tactics of tit-for-tat threats, so I'm not going to bother explaining its meaning again to you. You have had ample warning", "Learn history" 3)Concerning an RfC, and also this one, which FP is clearly ignoring and not respecting, thus disrespecting the entire community:"Dude, not a user conduct RfC (although one about you might not be such a bad idea). An article content RfC, of course. Read up on the process." 4) Lack of civility (towards the end): "This is just too stupid. You are being deliberately obtuse, again", "READ. THE. FUCKING. LITERATURE. There is just a tiny chance that you might actually find out the answers to your questions.", "Is your reading comprehension really that poor, are you just trolling?", "I trust even Hectorian will be able to decipher that. Or is the idea too complex for you to understand?" FP was stating throughout the discussion that there was solid consensus for more than half a year. When users he stated agreed with him appeared in the talk page and disagreed, I decided to check an other talk page related to the map (dating Feb 2008). To be brief, I'll only state that a number of similar comments were made ("the speak Macedonian, like it or not", "WP:MOSMAC should go to hell", "ARBCOM bans related to Macedonia are easy this days",etc.), practically excluding Greek editors from discussing how the map should be.Only a group of editors that very usually co-operate with FP remained, stating that they are proud to have been able to battle nationalism. When myself I called a fellow Wikipedian who was interested in the case, I myself received a threat.
I strongly believe that admins should be bright example to all Wikipedians. they should be neutral, and should not (ab)use their powers in matters that they are related to, and instead call an un-related admin to resolve the issue. Being an admin does not mean threatening or being uncivil. The second worst thing in all this, is that all this negative attitude continued, while this RfC had already begun, thus completely ignoring the community. And there's the worst thing: Let's revise Wikipedia's title: "The Free Encyclopedia, where everyone can edit". One can ignore rules, but not this one! None should send someone out and also state it was the right thing to do, because their level of English is not perfect, and get away with it. This is breaking of Wikipedia's foundations, and really the worst example for a wanna-be admin, as admninship is not tyranny. In general, FP, being in a safe position, is abusing his power to state that most of the community is less clever than him. That is totally unacceptable. All stated above are totally unacceptable. Yes,FP did usual admin staff aside of these, but that was his job. I recommend that FP should either "find his way" according to the remarks of the community, either step down, or lose adminship for one year, at the end of which another RfC should happen to question whether he should become an admin again. It is a shame that we reached this, when FP can be enormously constructive.But, I'm afraid what needs to be done has to be done.-- Michael X the White ( talk) 21:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC) reply
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Sometimes, people are being stupid. Sometimes their writing is crap. Many of these times, everyone will know it.
However, it is not productive to go and call people stupid, and to say their writing is crap. You will probably not convince them, and there aren't many other reasons to say these things. The result is a production of lots of heat, and no light. Lots of drama, but no figuring-out of what the problem is and how to resolve it.
The solution is not to stop calling a spade a spade – it is important that we are frank and earnest about the problems that contributors have, so that we may resolve them. The solution is to offer constructive criticism. Don't say "your writing is crap", say "your syntax is a bit odd, you should use the passive voice less". Don't say "you're stupid", say "I'm not sure you quite understand the policy".
In particular, don't say "in-universe, who writes this crap?", say "marking as in-universe", or, even better, "fixing in-universe style". There wasn't any need to tack on "who writes this crap?", and it produces a whole bunch of drama.
Earnest discussion and civility are not mutually exclusive. It's very simple to avoid the poisonous tone of some discussions, merely by discussing the issue at hand, without taking a snipe at every opportunity. If we can lose the confrontational attitude, quit sniping at each other, remain calm, and discuss issues sensibly, then Wikipedia discussions will be much nicer.
Some food for thought, somewhat related to the discussion. — Werdna • talk 01:42, 21 October 2008 (UTC) reply
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This took me a while to get through, but I have arrived at a conclusion after looking at all the viewpoints and appropriate diffs. There are two issues at hand in this RfC, those being User:Future Perfect at Sunrise's actions in regards to fair use images, and his civility in relation to them. I know how troublesome on both sides image issues can be, and that it's a very sensitive issue, so of course there's no ruling on that taking place here.
The consensus on the image appropriateness front leans in FPS's favor. While there are some things that both sides could improve on, overall we are a free content encyclopedia, which is where his actions stem from. I ask that FPS try and refrain from engaging in edit warring on IFD/orphan speedy issues so that drama is reduced in those areas, but otherwise sanctions do not appear needed. As for civility, this is a greater concern to editors, and the consensus is not in FPS's favor. There are some who agree with his actions but are thrown off by the civility issues, and just because one works in a difficult area does not give a user the right to attack another. As a result, I caution FPS to be more civil and to avoid personal attacks, on the image front as well as off. I feel that if this user can be civil and understanding while still dealing with questionable images, everything will ideally turn out fine.
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