This page contains a bureaucrat discussion about the result of Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Riana and is only for comments by bureaucrats. All other editors are welcome to comment on the talk page. |
The following threads are preserved as an archive of an inter- bureaucrat discussion regarding the related RfB, Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Riana. The final decision was to not promote. Please do not modify the text.
I am not comfortable being the sole bureaucrat to determine the outcome of this RfB. I do not believe an extension of time would be beneficial here - reviewing the history of the RfB, it has oscillated around similar levels of opposition and support and it seems probable that we would be looking at a similar balance in a few days time.
Numerically speaking, this RfB falls (at 85.8%) very slightly above the highest % support for an unsuccessful nomination (85.3% - Quadell) and below the lowest % support for a successful RfB (86.7% - Andre). The fact that this RfB enjoys the highest number of supporters ever has to be seen in the context that the level opposition (39 opposers) is however far higher than the highest level of opposition a successful RfB has had (16 opposers - Essjay). A relevant discussion I would draw your attention to is at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship#RfB passing %, where there seems to be significant support for the view that demanding 90% support for bureaucrat candidates is excessive and that some reduction should be made. Although I think shifting goal posts mid-discussion is unhelpful, I think we also need to be mindful of community attitudes that form a background to this RfB. This request seems to be within the scope of discretion and I think the discussion needs to be carefully evaluated if we are to correctly determine the outcome.
Turning to the issues raised in the discussion, I think it would be correct to say that there are two primary concerns raised by those opposing:
On the one hand opposition centres on very few incidents, on the other it does seem to have been such that a number of highly respected members of the community do not trust Riana to be a bureaucrat. At the moment I am rather on the fence - I am unsure how to factor in the recent discussions about what should be the correct threshhold for promoting a bureaucrat. If the test remains along the lines of "no significant opposition", then I am not convinced this request can be successful. If were are simply looking for a consensus with some form of supermajority, then that does seem to exist in this case.
WjB scribe 02:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
If my memory serves, in the past, we've regarded >90% as a probable pass, <85% as a probable fail, and 85 - 90% as the area requiring particularly close attention. This RfB is on the lower side of that range, and has been within the range for the past few days. WJBscribe offers an excellent summary of the main reasons for opposition, and in general the opposes are unusually well explained. Many support comments have explicitly addressed these reasons for opposition, and some have questioned the relevance of her co-nomination of Kelly Martin to bureaucratship. There are a small number of neutral comments, of which three state that they are leaning towards support.
Regarding WJBscribe's other comments, there is certainly an argument to be made for lowering the expected level of support for an RfB, and that discussion has been going on, but I think that there is a reasonable expectation that these current RfBs will be considered according to previous guidelines and practices, rather than changing them part-way through or during this discussion process. I do not, however, believe that "no significant opposition" has been a rule of thumb, and indeed it is almost impossible to achieve in a discussion involving so many users. In this case, the opposition clearly is significant; the question is whether it is sufficient that this should be closed as no consensus.
In summary, this is within the range commonly given particularly close consideration. In my view, a small number of issues have been raised, have been fully considered, and there are nonetheless a large majority in favour of Riana becoming a bureaucrat. It's a finely balanced one, but I would call it as just sufficient to constitute a consensus. Warofdreams talk 10:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I'm having more difficulty than others putting the discussion about RfB thresholds out of my mind and am leaning much more towards the conclusions of Andre and Warofdreams. To my mind the following points are significant:
I think this must be a case that turns largely on numbers - analysis of the arguments does not for me make the discussion look any different. The question seems to simply be does Riana have enough support relative to those opposing to be promoted? In this case, I think the answer is yes given that (a) the decision lies within the discretion of bureaucrats to promote and (b) the community has given a pretty clear indication that standards are in their opinion presently too high. I worry that this 90% figure has been imposed by bureaucrat action rather than at community request and that we are now proposing to apply it again fairly stringently when there seems to be a lack of commnity support for doing so. I think a promotion at the lower end of what has succeeded in the past is therefore an appropriate outcome in this case. WjB scribe 16:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
We've found before that extended bureaucrat discussions are not productive, so I'm keen to see a resolution one way or another by tonight.
A quick summary:
Would promote:
Would not promote:
I suggest that if this balance remains the same at the end of today, we should conclude that as a group, the bureaucrats have been unable to determine consensus. If this is the case, then we should close without promoting. However, it may be that discussions today will establish agreement. Warofdreams talk 10:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC) reply
As an alternative approach, given that there are continuing community discussions about what the threshold for passing RfB should be, what would people say to keeping this discussion on ice until the community forms a view on the matter? There is after all no deadline... WjB scribe 13:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I reluctantly have to agree with Warofdreams, Deskana and Rdsmith4 that absent someone changing their mind, or input from other bureaucrats, this request should be closed as unsuccessful at the end of the day. With respect to other contributors to this discussion, who have made valid points to which I have given much thought, I do not feel that this is the correct result and I believe we have failed to correctly interpret the wishes of the community in this case. That said, this discussion cannot last indefinitely and I am now clearly holding a minority view. Given my disagreement with the outcome, I would rather not be the one to finally close this RfB and would be grateful if someone else would do so should the position remain the same then. WjB scribe 15:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC) reply
When you say we, which we is that? Kingturtle ( talk) 19:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC) reply
12 hours have passed since the time when we agreed this should be closed as unsuccessful if no one changed their minds. No one has done so. I had hoped someone else would close it but there's no point in having this sitting around when promotion no longer seems a realistic outcome of this discussion. I don't think that's very fair to anyone. My concerns stand, but I recognise they have after considerable discussion found themselves in a minority. Thank you all very much for your input, WjB scribe 14:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC) reply
This page contains a bureaucrat discussion about the result of Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Riana and is only for comments by bureaucrats. All other editors are welcome to comment on the talk page. |
The following threads are preserved as an archive of an inter- bureaucrat discussion regarding the related RfB, Wikipedia:Requests for bureaucratship/Riana. The final decision was to not promote. Please do not modify the text.
I am not comfortable being the sole bureaucrat to determine the outcome of this RfB. I do not believe an extension of time would be beneficial here - reviewing the history of the RfB, it has oscillated around similar levels of opposition and support and it seems probable that we would be looking at a similar balance in a few days time.
Numerically speaking, this RfB falls (at 85.8%) very slightly above the highest % support for an unsuccessful nomination (85.3% - Quadell) and below the lowest % support for a successful RfB (86.7% - Andre). The fact that this RfB enjoys the highest number of supporters ever has to be seen in the context that the level opposition (39 opposers) is however far higher than the highest level of opposition a successful RfB has had (16 opposers - Essjay). A relevant discussion I would draw your attention to is at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship#RfB passing %, where there seems to be significant support for the view that demanding 90% support for bureaucrat candidates is excessive and that some reduction should be made. Although I think shifting goal posts mid-discussion is unhelpful, I think we also need to be mindful of community attitudes that form a background to this RfB. This request seems to be within the scope of discretion and I think the discussion needs to be carefully evaluated if we are to correctly determine the outcome.
Turning to the issues raised in the discussion, I think it would be correct to say that there are two primary concerns raised by those opposing:
On the one hand opposition centres on very few incidents, on the other it does seem to have been such that a number of highly respected members of the community do not trust Riana to be a bureaucrat. At the moment I am rather on the fence - I am unsure how to factor in the recent discussions about what should be the correct threshhold for promoting a bureaucrat. If the test remains along the lines of "no significant opposition", then I am not convinced this request can be successful. If were are simply looking for a consensus with some form of supermajority, then that does seem to exist in this case.
WjB scribe 02:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
If my memory serves, in the past, we've regarded >90% as a probable pass, <85% as a probable fail, and 85 - 90% as the area requiring particularly close attention. This RfB is on the lower side of that range, and has been within the range for the past few days. WJBscribe offers an excellent summary of the main reasons for opposition, and in general the opposes are unusually well explained. Many support comments have explicitly addressed these reasons for opposition, and some have questioned the relevance of her co-nomination of Kelly Martin to bureaucratship. There are a small number of neutral comments, of which three state that they are leaning towards support.
Regarding WJBscribe's other comments, there is certainly an argument to be made for lowering the expected level of support for an RfB, and that discussion has been going on, but I think that there is a reasonable expectation that these current RfBs will be considered according to previous guidelines and practices, rather than changing them part-way through or during this discussion process. I do not, however, believe that "no significant opposition" has been a rule of thumb, and indeed it is almost impossible to achieve in a discussion involving so many users. In this case, the opposition clearly is significant; the question is whether it is sufficient that this should be closed as no consensus.
In summary, this is within the range commonly given particularly close consideration. In my view, a small number of issues have been raised, have been fully considered, and there are nonetheless a large majority in favour of Riana becoming a bureaucrat. It's a finely balanced one, but I would call it as just sufficient to constitute a consensus. Warofdreams talk 10:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I'm having more difficulty than others putting the discussion about RfB thresholds out of my mind and am leaning much more towards the conclusions of Andre and Warofdreams. To my mind the following points are significant:
I think this must be a case that turns largely on numbers - analysis of the arguments does not for me make the discussion look any different. The question seems to simply be does Riana have enough support relative to those opposing to be promoted? In this case, I think the answer is yes given that (a) the decision lies within the discretion of bureaucrats to promote and (b) the community has given a pretty clear indication that standards are in their opinion presently too high. I worry that this 90% figure has been imposed by bureaucrat action rather than at community request and that we are now proposing to apply it again fairly stringently when there seems to be a lack of commnity support for doing so. I think a promotion at the lower end of what has succeeded in the past is therefore an appropriate outcome in this case. WjB scribe 16:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC) reply
We've found before that extended bureaucrat discussions are not productive, so I'm keen to see a resolution one way or another by tonight.
A quick summary:
Would promote:
Would not promote:
I suggest that if this balance remains the same at the end of today, we should conclude that as a group, the bureaucrats have been unable to determine consensus. If this is the case, then we should close without promoting. However, it may be that discussions today will establish agreement. Warofdreams talk 10:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC) reply
As an alternative approach, given that there are continuing community discussions about what the threshold for passing RfB should be, what would people say to keeping this discussion on ice until the community forms a view on the matter? There is after all no deadline... WjB scribe 13:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC) reply
I reluctantly have to agree with Warofdreams, Deskana and Rdsmith4 that absent someone changing their mind, or input from other bureaucrats, this request should be closed as unsuccessful at the end of the day. With respect to other contributors to this discussion, who have made valid points to which I have given much thought, I do not feel that this is the correct result and I believe we have failed to correctly interpret the wishes of the community in this case. That said, this discussion cannot last indefinitely and I am now clearly holding a minority view. Given my disagreement with the outcome, I would rather not be the one to finally close this RfB and would be grateful if someone else would do so should the position remain the same then. WjB scribe 15:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC) reply
When you say we, which we is that? Kingturtle ( talk) 19:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC) reply
12 hours have passed since the time when we agreed this should be closed as unsuccessful if no one changed their minds. No one has done so. I had hoped someone else would close it but there's no point in having this sitting around when promotion no longer seems a realistic outcome of this discussion. I don't think that's very fair to anyone. My concerns stand, but I recognise they have after considerable discussion found themselves in a minority. Thank you all very much for your input, WjB scribe 14:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC) reply