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The article in question is Jewish partisans, the content is this diff, and the sources in question are:
Christopher Browning is a historian specializing in the Holocaust, Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, formerly (retired 2014) Distinguished Professor at Pacific Lutheran University and chaired at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. David Cesarani (deceased 2015, aged 58) was a research professor at Royal Holloway, University of London specializing in the Holocaust. Sarah Kavanaugh is a history PHD (2003) and has held a number of academic positions since 2004. Icewhiz ( talk) 05:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC) Correction/Addition - the book chapter in the work edited by Cesarani is by Antony Polonsky - whose credentials in Polish Jewish history are quite established. Icewhiz ( talk) 11:48, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
However they offer very general and stereotypical sweeping statements. The Polish sources have more in depth analysis of the subject and more detailed information. We have in fact one dedicated source and two very general ones. Therefore sources aren’t of equal weight, as one is more detailed scholarly study of the subject. This is in fact a content dispute as Icewhiz wants to delete a more detailed information and present a very general pov statement based on cherry picked sources, which in fact is incorrect-for example Home Army and Jewish partisants cooperated in other areas than Volhyn-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
"the institute overall is influenced by the Polish right wing and operates in a nationalist framework that glorifies Polish resistance and non-complicity") by a researcher not particularly known (though he has been in the press lately after the Polish government agency decided to remove him from research and bar publication of his habilitation thesis - [1] [2] - demonstrating IPN's bias) - does not seem to support the text it was sourcing in the article per my reading - however such a source from a highly biased government agency and in a language other than English is not appropriate when we have several high quality sources in English which we prefer per WP:NOENG. Icewhiz ( talk) 11:56, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I will also note that the Polish government agency document is being mosrepresented - it actually mainly agrees with Polonsky. You can see it via google translate here. Some translated quotations:
The problem is wider. In Jewish historiography, there is a view that if Jews were admitted to AK units, they were only individual - they were few cases. In the article Poland after the Holocaust, Iwona Irwin-Zarecka wrote: "The Home Army, the largest underground organization, had some [some] Jews, some were even officers, but did not reveal that they were Jews." According to this historiography, as wrote Yisrael Gutman and Shmuel Krakowski in Unequal Victims. Poles and Jews During World War II"Both the Office of the Delegate and the Home Army considered themselves authorized to represent and defend only ethnic Poles." .... Recently, also Polish historians have stated that the Polish Underground State "did not include other national groups", was "ethnic in some sense", or otherwise - "apart from certain exceptions - the state of Poles", but they derive it from a different reason than Jewish historians. For some historians, this was the result of poor identification or lack of links between some Jews and the Polish (underground) state, as well as the Polish authorities' lack of trust in the Jews because of their attitudes at the beginning of the war:The author goes on to discuss a roundtable of Polish historians at the IPN who mainly agree with him. He summarizes with
Jewish units, as a rule, did not receive proposals to join the AK structures. The exception is probably a combat unit made up of Jews, subject to AK, which was formed near the Polish village of Hanaczów (in Eastern Galicia), where there was so-called self-defense.
It seems that the central bodies of the Home Army and the Delegation saw Jewish units as "bands" as "foreign" groups, and considered them to be communized. It certainly affected the way of looking at AKPs at lower levels. However, it had to be a conjugate process: the perception of "Jewish units" by local AK members shaped the "upstairs" perception.He goes on to list various examples.
The conclusion may be drawn that, although a Jew who was in hiding was not always considered a "bandit" at once, being in a partisan unit qualified by the Home Army as a "gang", he became such a person. The aforementioned Tomasz Toivi Blatt continued his conversation with a fellow Home Army friend: "» A true Home Army soldier, "Tadek replied," he does not kill Jews unless they are caught with weapons. "Although it may happen that some Poles who rob members of the Home Army are robbing and murder Jews. "
There are also known cases of AK co-operation with Jewish units in other occupied areas of the Second Polish Republic - in Eastern Galicia and in Volhynia. The AK and Jewish partisans approached the "common enemy" - partisan units of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army- which is the same exception noted by Polonsky.
It seems, therefore, that the perception of Jewish troops by the Home Army and the Delegation as "band", "alienated" and "commmonised" has developed in a complicated, complex process and resulted from the way of thinking and strategy adopted, from prejudices against Jews, and partly from the objective phenomenon of banditry of partisan units.
In short, the Polish document does not contradict Polonsky, and in fact to a large extent agrees with him. This misrepresentation of this Polish language source demonstrates why WP:NOENG is policy - many editors will not vet a non-English source, leaving Wikipedia to AGF with those who introduce the source - which is not the case with an English language source which one can verify readily. Icewhiz ( talk) 18:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
The Institute of National Remembrance, supposed to protect national memory, is today engaging in activities that destroy this memory. Today’s memory police resort to the hateful methods of the communist secret services and direct them at a victim of this very secret service. These policemen violate the truth and fundamental ethical principles. They do harm to Poland
Both sources are reliable and nobody disputes this. If Icewhiz wants to remove other sources and information then it is a question for completely different discussion. it is worth noting that here we have a situation in which the user seems to chase his own tail so to speak(for lack of better metaphor by this non-native English speaker). The source was first questioned as being from IPN and then defended as being criticized by IPN for being too pro-Jewish in views. I am afraid that this demonstrates if a source as pro-Jewish as Pulawski does go into detail and provides examples of cooperation between AK and Jewish Partisants it just demonstrates how radical and extreme the claim that Home Army were murderous antisemties is. Pulawski is critized as being pro-Jewish and highly critical towards Polish resistance and even he is attacked by Icewhiz for not being too radical in his assesments while using his figure to attack other Polish scholarly institution. However this goes beyond the scope of this discussion-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:10, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
The Polish Home Army provided some training to Warsaw Ghetto's Jewish Combat Organization, but generally did not accept Jewish groups (with the exception of Volhynia, where a Ukranian-Polish conflict raged and the Home Army was eager to cooperate with Jewish groups) and was reluctant to accept Jewish individuals. Antisemitism and killing of Jews was also an issue in the Home Army as made clear by Browning and most other sources - however that is not what we are discussing sourcing. Icewhiz ( talk) 20:21, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Polish Home Army provided training to Warsaw Ghetto's Jewish Combat Organization, and included in its ranks Jewish individuals and Jewish units, such as Lukawiecki Partisants commanded by Edmund Łukawiecki and working under the umbrella of Home Army[16][17], and Jewish Platoon Wigry which took part in 1944 Warsaw Uprising[18]. It also collaborated with Jewish units in self-defence operations[19]- which per sources discussed here are rare exceptions to the rule, and are not presented as such. Finally, WP:NOENG and use of (yet more) low quality non-English sources is a RS issue. Icewhiz ( talk) 21:54, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I am writing to ask someone to take a closer look at Meetup (website). Specifically, the part that says “and lacking the funds necessary to compete against rising competition.” I cannot find a cited source for that statement. The citation in question is here ( https://www.wired.com/story/why-wework-is-buying-meetup/).
I've previously posted about this on the Talk page here
As indicated in my profile, I work at Meetup.
" Kristin hodgson at meetup ( talk) 19:09, 14 June 2018 (UTC)"
Is this source reliable to include the following sentence in the article People's Mujahedin of Iran?
The CIA's former Chief of Station in Tehran, George Cave, described the attack as the first instance of a remotely detonated improvised explosive device.
— Peter Earnest (June 21, 2012). "Our Man in the Middle East (Part 1)". www.spymuseum.org (Podcast). International Spy Museum. Event occurs at 34:21-35:07. Retrieved April 1, 2015.
– Pahlevun ( talk) 21:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I am currently using the following source ( AfterElton Briefs: A Year Of Father Hotties, Britney Gets The Axe, and Tom Daley Wants a Kiss) in the Lady Blue (TV series) article. During the FAC for the article, a question on whether or not NewNowNext.com is "a high-quality reliable source" was raised during the source review. Here is a link to the about page ( About Us), which includes a list of the editors, and I believe that it shows that the site has editorial oversight. The source used for the article was written by the site's managing editor. My question is: would this source be acceptable for a featured article? Thank you in advance! Aoba47 ( talk) 22:59, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Are “true crime” books considered a reliable source for biographies of mass murderers or serial killers? Obviously, these books are mostly factual, but contain a significant degree of fictionalization, mostly to add drama to the story, as well as to protect privacy and confidentiality, so they aren’t as reliable as academic/scholarly sources about the topic. Would they still be considered a reliable source?— Preceding unsigned comment added by MBridges1996 ( talk • contribs)
Hello,
I have been trying to edit the article Hadith of Najd by removing content from websites that clearly fail WP:RS. I would like confirmation that the sites are unreliable for Wikipedia. The sites in question are:
Most of the material for the article has been taken word for word from this page [5] and seems to be a clear violation of WP:COPYRIGHT and also seems completely unreliable. Also, the author seems spurious (who on earth is Abu Rumaysah - hopefully not this guy). Thank you. 2A01:4B00:88BB:E000:DCC7:6D14:2026:586D ( talk) 09:25, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Copyright problems should be reported at Wikipedia:Copyright problems. -- Emir of Wikipedia ( talk) 15:57, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Two editors are removing ( here and here) the following source:
The content comes from an interview given to this Gaza-based reporter by the mother of Razan al-Najjar, concerning the life of her daughter before she was shot dead i.e.
According to her mother, Najjar attended every Friday event from 7am and 8pm, and would return home spattered with the blood of those whom she had tendered care to.
There are two arguments in the edit summaries against this, WP:Undue, and Middle East Eye is not RS. This board has never determined that. A brief discussion with one of the reverters took place here.
The source Hind Khoudary (22) is one of the few female reporters used by foreign media for what’s going on the ground there. (Hamza Saftawi and Miriam Berger To Be a Palestinian Journalist in Gaza Is to Be Always Under Threat The Nation 27 April 2018) She works as a translator and journalist for outlets like Kuwait’s national channel, RT News , the Electronic Intifada, Middle East Eye, Mondoweiss and Libération. There’s no doubt RT is viewed with a dim eye, and I would never use it. But as for the others, they are reasonable outlets for a journeyman reporter in this context, and her work on Gaza fishermen’s plight for the Electronic Intifada was recommended by The Jerusalem Fund; her work on Hamas-Fatah reconciliation has been cited in the Council on Foreign Relations daily news wrap up as a useful analysis; Libération also cite her for what’s going on inside Gaza.
I believe in strong sourcing where possible, but where conditions on the ground make coverage extremely difficult, and the material happens to be, in my view, innocuous background detail from a local reporter interviewing someone, then I cannot see good reason to exclude it. I would exclude MEE if we were dealing with extraordinary claims or otherwise unattested facts. Neutral third party input would be appreciated. For involved editors, please refrain from turning this into another I/P bagfight. Nishidani ( talk) 17:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I dont think this is even the right question. Middle East Eye, here, is used as a source for an interview with the victim's mother. There isnt any indication that they did not faithfully and accurately report what her mother said. Even if one wanted to say that MEE is generally not a RS, which I would dispute, the idea that they shouldnt be sourced for an interview they had is absurd. What evidence is there that they did not conduct this interview? None, this is strictly an effort to deny a voice to the mother of the subject of the article. If I werent already so jaded from my years here ... nableezy - 18:38, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
And to the point on reliability, here are other sources citing Middle East Eye:
This is a source often cited by other reliable sources. Nothing has been given as evidence that it is "fringe", that is a completely baseless claim, made only to remove what a victims mother said about her daughter. nableezy - 19:45, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Widely respected sources consider Middle East Eye reliable enough to cite it. The personal ideology of a news organization's employees is irrelevant as to whether their reporting is reliable.-- Tdl1060 ( talk) 20:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
an ip user keep on censoring the wikipedia content in ZTE, at first he claimed this is WP:original research (but it actually an article by Curtis J. Milhaupt), then claim it is not an approved source. Please revert his edit Special:Diff/846126374 if it really an reliable source. Matthew_hk t c 14:15, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Would you consider an FBI case file to be a reliable source for basic biographical information? Radical activist Robert F. Stern's article uses his FBI casefile as a reliable source. I think we can all agree that it is not necessarily a good source for someone's views, but I believe it should be used to substantiate basic biographical information.-- TM 17:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Title is pretty self explanatory. Anyways, I know that people regard these sources as the most reliable and objective news sources, but can they ever report information that is inaccurate, misleading, or false. (This is mostly by accident because the information was believed to be true at the time). Or report information that we cannot really confirm or deny because it’s just so vague and they don’t give a lot of background information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MBridges1996 ( talk • contribs)
Well-established wire services with a good track record for reliability and an explicit editorial presence are generally considered WP:RS, but no source is infallible. And as said above, different sourcing/evidence criteria apply for different topics. -- The Anome ( talk) 11:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
It depends on how the AP, et alia is cited. For example, assume the fictional case where a wire story reports that researchers at X organization discover ABC is a cure for Made-up disease. The problem is taking this article & writing "ABC is a cure for Made-up disease", which is a blanket, absolute statement & asserts a fact that may not be in evidence; many preliminary reports of discoveries or cures later prove not to be the case. However, using that wire story to write, "Researchers at X organization reported success using ABC to cure Made-up disease" would be acceptable, since it is a fact that people reported that success. And while some would prefer to use a more specialized publication to cite for this statement, at least the fact of the statement has been corroborated, & someone else with better knowledge of the subject can then replace the wire story with a better citation. (This careful handling makes this a case of the perfect is the enemy of good.) -- llywrch ( talk) 17:15, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello, folks. I'm putting together a rewrite of the infamous Mokele-mbembe, but I'm having some trouble making sense of the sources. For those of you haven't been involved in the recent pseudoscience cleanup efforts in these areas (articles around the living dinosaur- Young Earth creationism- cryptozoology pseudoscience circle, that is), this article may be perplexing and the topic requires a little background.
Essentially, the article is written like so many others related to it on Wikipedia: mostly in direct violation of WP:PROFRINGE. Individuals who fall out of line with the fringe view, like academics, are described as a "skeptic" and ushered into the back. Heavy emphasis is placed on "sightings", etc. Where this one differs from the usually quackery is that reliable sources on this topic in fact do exist (thus meeting WP:FRIND), but they tell a very different story than the current article does. It turns out that a lot of the material produced on this topic results from Young Earth creationist-cryptozoologist overlap, as paleontologist Donald Prothero's work on this topic illustrates (see his The Story of Life in 25 Fossils: Tales of Intrepid Fossil Hunters and the Wonders of Evolution, pp.232-234, Columbia University Press and also Abominable Science: Origins of the Yeti, Nessie, and other Famous Cryptids, pp. 115-116, 262-265, Columbia University Press with Loxton).
In short, creationist groups have been funding cryptozoologist trips to Africa to find this purported dinosaur (or, if you're a cryptozoologist, a "cryptid") for quite some time now (reaching back as far as the 1980s, even). Their goal? To 'prove evolution wrong'. Typically, while well known, you won't find this less than savory fact mentioned by notable adherents of the pseudoscience themselves (but you might find a citation or two to genesispark.com from cryptozoologists, like in George M. Eberhart's Mysterious Creatures: A Guide to Cryptozoology(!)). It all makes for a case book example of why WP:FRIND is so important in these corners.
This idea of Mokele-mbembe comes from somewhere, yet the ultimate source of these concepts seems pretty blurry. A lot of writers mention it comes from some kind of folk belief, but that may not actually be the case. For example, editors who have researched the history of the concept of the yeti knows that this can be a complex topic, perhaps even resulting from some kind of misunderstanding in translation, and then taking on a life of its own. Anyway, does anyone know of any solid sources on the origin of the Mokele-mbembe concept? Any specialist linguists, anthropologists, or folklorists who can shine some light on how all this developed as a vehicle for the we-gotta-find-a-dinosaur-to-prove-evolution-is-wrong crowd? :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:39, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Please, may someone who knows about law decide which source is more valid to determine when Mariano Rajoy's term ended? According to the Spanish Constitution (Art. 101) and the date the BOE published the Royal Decrees dismissing Rajoy and appointing Sánchez as Prime Minister, it should have ended on June 2, not on June 1:
(TRANSLATION: 1. The Government shall resign after the holding of general elections, in the event of loss of Parliamentary confidence as provided in the Constitution, or on account of the resignation or death of the President. 2. THE OUTGOING GOVERNMENT SHALL CONTINUE IN POWER UNTIL THE NEW GOVERNMENT TAKES OFFICE).
https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2018/06/02/
However, one user hinders me from making the change (June 2 is stated as the date Rajoy's term ended in all other Wikipedias, although I know different-language Wikipedias are independent from each other) and insists on using a chart which appears in LaMoncloa's official website as a legal criterion to determine the date. However, LaMoncloa's website is not a legal source and that chart's data may have even been extracted from Wikipedia itself - workers who are in charge of the page are obviously not lawyers and their main job is to design a beautiful website with useful information and news about the Government, but it is not their aim to specify and solve subtle legal questions of this kind. Thank you and sorry for insisting. I just would like you to understand that the sources that are being used to support that date are not legally valid. This is the chart: http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/presidente/presidentes-desde-1823/Paginas/index.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 ( talk • contribs) 14:01, June 19, 2018 (UTC) (and another dozen or so unsigned comments further down)
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/06/02/actualidad/1527918278_189826.html https://www.eldiario.es/politica/BOE-nombramiento-Pedro-Sanchez-Gobierno_0_777972243.html http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/06/02/5b1237ad46163f8b2a8b45e8.html http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20180602/444002616755/boe-pedro-sanchez-presidente-cese-rajoy.html http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-publica-cese-rajoy-y-nombramiento-sanchez-201806020830_noticia.html http://cadenaser.com/ser/2018/06/02/politica/1527924001_915647.html
LA SER: El Boletín Oficial del Estado publica este sábado los tres Reales Decretos que oficializan el relevo al frente del Gobierno. El primero de ellos es el que nombra como presidente a Pedro Sánchez. Los otros dos recogen el cese de Mariano Rajoy y de todos sus ministros.
Para evitar cualquier vacío de poder, el artículo 101.2 de la Constitución establece "El Gobierno cesante continuará en funciones hasta la toma de posesión del nuevo Gobierno". Como Pedro Sánchez ha tomado posesión este sábado, Mariano Rajoy ha sido muy pocas horas presidente en funciones.
The Government does include the Prime Minister: art. 98 of the Spanish Constitution: The Government consists of the President, Vice-Presidents, when applicable, Ministers and other members as may be created by law.
They were signed on Friday, but can't enter into force until they are published. Please read carefully from LASER's source: Para evitar cualquier vacío de poder, el artículo 101.2 de la Constitución establece "El Gobierno cesante continuará en funciones hasta la toma de posesión del nuevo Gobierno". Como Pedro Sánchez ha tomado posesión este sábado, Mariano Rajoy ha sido muy pocas horas presidente en funciones I think it's pretty clear.
Yes, it does. I'll translate. It literally says that, in order to avoid a power vacuum, the Constitution establishes that the outgoing Government shall continue in office until the new Government is sworn in. So, since Pedro Sánchez has taken office on Saturday, Mariano Rajoy has been the acting Prime Minister only for a few hours. I think it's utterly clear.
I think it is time for others to chime in. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:16, 19 June 2018
I agree. Thanks a lot for listening and giving your opinion. However, I would be extremely grateful if other users who know about law expressed their own viewpoint.
Please keep quiet until other users answer. Primary information sources are obviously more reliable that secondary information sources, which are the ones you're using - but newspapers obviously don't deal with subtle legal questions like this, so it's difficult to find an article stating that Rajoy's term ended on June 2, even if I have found one - LASER - that suggests it did, and you insist on rejecting its validity -. If we find someone who knows the actual effects of publishing a decree in BOE, our dispute will be solved.
https://www.uv.es/legalskills/validez/cundo_entran_en_vigor_las_normas.html
This is a legal source where it is explained that decrees must be published in BOE before entering into force, so Mariano Rajoy can't have stopped being PM before the decree ousting him from office was published.
Okay, but please wait until others read the discussion and answer. If we keep discussing they will not read it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 ( talk • contribs) 17:41, June 19, 2018 (UTC)
At 2018 Gaza border protests a revert specialist excised a piece by Norman Finkelstein stating unreliable sources, not an historian Norman Finkelstein Gaza:An Inquest into Its Martyrdom, University of California Press 2018.
I know the answer, which is obvious for technicians of RSB issues, but I would like external neutral confirmation. Thank you. Nishidani ( talk) 17:26, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Finkelstein’s magnum opus is both a monument to Gaza’s martyrs and an act of resistance against the forgetfulness of history.is definitely a WP:BIASED source, and would require balancing at the very least.... Note the diff you are linking to is soirced to a Mondoweiss opinion piece, which would not be RS. Icewhiz ( talk) 19:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
WP:RS#Exceptions: Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications. Such material, although written by an established author, likely lacks the fact checking that publishers provide. Avoid using them to source extraordinary claims.
Even if this were self-published Finkelstein clearly meets the threshold for established expert in the field as his works on the topic has been published by highly respected academic presses. And really, is that an exceptional claim? Somebody is actually challenging Media coverage of the events has been the object of controversy? That is literally the most mundane fact about any topic in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. nableezy - 05:54, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Though this board is not for discussion of information of WP:UNDUE his opinion is WP:UNDUE and also who decided that he such expert on Gaza matters and facts?-- Shrike ( talk) 07:01, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
He is RS, he is a noted commentator and recognized expert and it was published by a reputable publisher. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:48, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Does the content provided by sources referenced in the article satisfy the guidelines on the notability of organizations and companies? Per recent feedback from a wiki contributor, "This submission's references do not adequately show the subject's notability. Wikipedia requires significant coverage (not just mere mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject". I would like to get other opinions on this topic.
Article: Draft:SenRa — Preceding unsigned comment added by TekJunky ( talk • contribs) 08:33, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Input requested on this: Naliboki Forest: Historical outline and ethnographical sketch, pages 1024-1026, by Prof. Dr. Vadim Sidorovich of the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus. The article in question is Naliboki massacre (which at present uses rather poor sources (mainly interim reports by a prosecutor's office) and for which this is a distinct lack of English RS (there is some newspaper reporting on the outrage of the prosecutor's actions - but little on the historical events themselves)) and incorporation of material from Sidorovich regarding Naliboki village in the months prior to May 1943 and May 1943. The publisher is Chatyry Chverci from Minsk. The work has been peer reviewed by Prof. Dr. Mikhail Nikiforov (National Academy of Sciences of Belarus), Prof Dr. Uldazimir Bahinski (National Academy of Sciences of Belarus), Prof. Dr. Frieder Luz ( Weihenstephan-Triesdorf University of Applied Science), Prof Dr. Wlodzimierz Jedrzejewski, and Prof Dr. Annick Schnitzler ( University of Lorraine). The author is an expert on the Naliboki forest, and the work itself is a 3 part anthology - the first part on land and plant communities, the second on wild animals, and the third is this volume which is a Historical outline and ethnographical sketch. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:28, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
The first issue of the WikiJournal of Science was published recently; it can be seen here. This is a Wikimedia project, hosted at Wikiversity. Is it a reliable source?
A discussion has been taking place at Iridescent's talk page, and the majority opinion there seems to be that it is not. That's not really the best place to get visibility for a community consensus, though, so I am posting here in the hope of getting a discussion that we can point to in the future.
Disclosure: I am the author of one of the articles in the first issue of WikiJSci and plan to abstain from !voting below as a result. I had assumed it would be considered a reliable source, but I have no problem if the consensus is that it is not.
Pinging those involved in the earlier conversation, including the lead in to that conversation: Iridescent, Anthonyhcole, Evolution and evolvability, EEng, Ealdgyth, Mikael Häggström, Sylvain Ribault, Izno, Noswall59, Hawkeye7, Only in death, Floquenbeam, Jo-Jo Eumerus, Sitush, TonyBallioni, Johnbod, Rachel Helps (BYU), Natureium. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 01:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
The traditional science and medicine publishing model relies on the reputation of the publisher. This is placing one's blind faith on the publisher. For all we know, even Elseiver has done really sketchy stuff (see Australasian Journal of Bone & Joint Medicine and 5 other journals that are ghost written by big pharma). I'm not saying that all Elseiver journals are sketchy, but it should be judged independently and not with blanket assumptions. OhanaUnited Talk page 17:44, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
model relies on the reputation. He didn't say blindly. E Eng 17:51, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
in the general context of academic publishing. That's clearly generalization. And I have provided an example where even reputable publisher does sketchy stuff in the name of profit. Then he said
Wikijournal allows the reviewers to remain anonymous. As Mikael Häggström pointed out, most journals don't reveal who the reviewers are, or even the peer-review reports. What I am seeing right now is that quite a number of people flatly saying "no" rather than "wait and see" as other new, nameless journals are afforded to out of courtesy. OhanaUnited Talk page 20:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
WikiJournal has no reputation yet; as a WMF project it has the reputation for accuracy that every other WMF project has, which is—for good reason—extremely low. I would be willing to bet a fair amount that few other journals have a disclaimer of this nature prominently linked from every page (and subject-specific disclaimers such as
There is absolutely no assurance that any statement contained or cited in an article touching on medical matters is true, correct, precise, or up-to-datelinked from the relevant pages as well). There are some scientific journals—particularly in specialist areas such as engineering and animal husbandry—where individual writers have such a reputation for accuracy that peer review isn't even considered necessary (the London Railway Record is pretty much a one-man operation published from the editor's house, but if anyone tries to tell me it's not a reliable source on urban rail design and planning I'll laugh in their face) but that relies on the author(s) in question having built up a reputation over decades for accuracy and (equally importantly) for prompt corrections. Wikimedia is never going to develop a reputation for accuracy—if anything, the WMF would probably summarily close the Wikijournals if it did look like they were developing a reputation as independent sources in their own right, since it would destroy §230 protection if we abandoned the "we're just repeating what other sources say" defense; consequently the only path to RS-hood is by way of contributor reputation, which it's hard to imagine developing on a project where it's a matter of faith who is operating what account. ‑ Iridescent 11:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES ARE GIVEN AS TO THE ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS OF THE INFORMATION PROVIDED ON THIS WEB SITE, OR ANY WEB SITE TO WHICH IT IS LINKED.(That's their all-caps screaming, by the way.) The New England Journal of Medicine has a similar disclaimer, under the Terms link at the bottom of – you guessed it – every single page:
The [publisher] makes no warranty that the operation of the Services will be uninterrupted or error-free or as to the accuracy, completeness, suitability, or result obtained from the use of the Services or any content included therein.That's just a taste; both pages go on at rather more length about how you absolutely should not rely on them. You'll find similar disclaimers on the websites of the New York Times, and the BBC, and just about everywhere else. (If anything, the absence of a content disclaimer should probably be seen as a mild warning signal.) TenOfAllTrades( talk) 13:32, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
As others are alluding to, but I may as well say directly, I can't imagine any circumstances in which it would ever be legitimate to cite anything from Wikipedia/Wikiversity other than as a primary source in an article about Wikipedia. If the statement being cited includes sources, we should be citing those sources and not the Wikipedia page; if the statement being cited doesn't include sources, it has no place being cited on Wikipedia. Unsourced statements published in reliable sources we can use, since by footnoting it we're de facto saying "according to Foo" and consequently allowing readers to know where to go to query the source's credentials. The Wikijournal model, not so much, as we have no way of knowing whether either the authors of the page, or the people conducting the peer review, are Nobel laureates or Joe Blow from Kokomo; we've had high-profile problems with Wikipedia editors impersonating academics to try to give their views extra weight in the past. (As an obvious example, the thread that prompted this thread came about as a result of my being invited to contribute to WikiJournals; I very much doubt that any of the Wikijournal people have more than the faintest idea of who I am, let alone of what my qualifications are, whether I hold any particularly eccentric or objectionable views, or indeed whether I'm in fact a twelve year old child, a committee of twenty people who take turns using the account, or editing Wikipedia from a terminal in a secure psychiatric unit.) ‑ Iridescent 09:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
At Frankfurt (Oder), an editor has inserted the following sources, to support the fact that supposedly the city's name in Polish is "Słubice":
This conflicts with what appears to be actual Polish usage (looking on the Polish wiki, pl:Słubice clearly refers to the city on the east side of the Oder (in Poland) while a translation of the German name is used for the part that is in Germany (west of the Oder), pl:Frankfurt nad Odrą. The sources seem to be obsolete, too, since they're over 70 yrs old - way too old to be used as sources for current Polish usage. At best, the sources could be used to support the historical name of the city having been "Słubice" in Polish. Despite this being brought up on the article talk page, in edit summaries and on the other involved editor's talk page, I have no reply from the other party on the matter (except something which looks like WP:ABF). So, simple question: are these sources acceptable, or would they be disqualified under WP:RS AGE? 198.84.253.202 ( talk) 15:15, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I began a discussion at ' Template_talk:Convert#Reliable_sources?' regarding the sources used for the template computations. Since this template is widely used for presenting data conversions, including on FA articles, I think the need for reliable sources is clear. Am I out of line on this? Thanks. Praemonitus ( talk) 23:50, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Over at the article Mami Kawada, no age is given as she as, as far as I can tell, she has not publicly stated her year of birth. However, this article by Sports Hochi gives her age as 37; the article was published on February 4, 2018, and for reference, her birthday is February 13. Based on this source and the circumstances, what would be the best option here: list her year of birth as 1980, give a range for her year of birth (i.e. born 1980 or 1981), or omit the year of birth entirely (i.e. status quo)? Narutolovehinata5 t c csd new 21:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Please, may someone who knows about law decide which source is more valid to determine when Mariano Rajoy's term ended? According to the Spanish Constitution (Art. 101) and the date the BOE published the Royal Decrees dismissing Rajoy and appointing Sánchez as Prime Minister, it should have ended on June 2, not on June 1: Art. 101 El Gobierno cesa tras la celebración de elecciones generales, en los casos de pérdida de la confianza parlamentaria previstos en la Constitución, o por dimisión o fallecimiento de su Presidente.
El Gobierno cesante continuará en funciones hasta la toma de posesión del nuevo Gobierno.
(TRANSLATION: 1. The Government shall resign after the holding of general elections, in the event of loss of Parliamentary confidence as provided in the Constitution, or on account of the resignation or death of the President. 2. THE OUTGOING GOVERNMENT SHALL CONTINUE IN POWER UNTIL THE NEW GOVERNMENT TAKES OFFICE).
https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2018/06/02/
However, one user hinders me from making the change (June 2 is stated as the date Rajoy's term ended in all other Wikipedias, although I know different-language Wikipedias are independent from each other) and insists on using a chart which appears in LaMoncloa's official website as a legal criterion to determine the date. However, LaMoncloa's website is not a legal source and that chart's data may have even been extracted from Wikipedia itself - workers who are in charge of the page are obviously not lawyers and their main job is to design a beautiful website with useful information and news about the Government, but it is not their aim to specify and solve subtle legal questions of this kind. Thank you and sorry for insisting. I just would like you to understand that the sources that are being used to support that date are not legally valid. This is the chart: http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/presidente/presidentes-desde-1823/Paginas/index.aspx
However, Rajoy's term ended on June 2, not on June 1. It specifically ended when Sánchez became Prime Minister. There cannot be a power vacuum between both days (Pedro Sánchez's term is already said to begin on June 2). The Royal Decrees published in the Official Diary of the State were signed on June 1, but were published the following day, and therefore did not come into force until that same day. The day the decree was signed has no legal validity. Please check how the Decree which made Rajoy Prime Minister in 2011 was also signed one day before it came into force - it was signed on December 20, the day he was elected by the Congress of Deputies, but Rajoy only became Prime Minister one day later, when the Decree was published and he was sworn in. This same article states that his first term began on December 21, so there is an obvious contradiction between both dates, because two different criteria are being followed. I can guarantee you that the correct criterium is the 21 December - 2 June one, which is the one that has been followed to fix the date Rajoy's term began and also to establish the dates when former Spanish Prime Ministers began and finished their terms. Thanks a lot for your attention. Check: http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/12/21/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-19861.pdf
So what do you think? Could someone answer please? Hello?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 ( talk) 22:01, 12 June 2018
I started the Del Barber article a number of years ago. Recently, I've been adding more information and more sources. There are lots of sources on Del. Now, there are certain parts of the article in which I've sourced with lots of sources. Some of his influences have four sources. You always want to source information, but can you over source? Mr. C.C. Hey yo! I didn't do it! 15:07, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I was wondering if I could use the following source ( 1) for the The Beautician and the Beast article. I would be using to expand information on the film's soundtrack. However, I am assuming that this site would not be usable on Wikipedia, but I just wanted to double-check to make sure. Thank you in advance and I apologize if this is obvious. Aoba47 ( talk) 18:58, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
There is currently a dispute regarding the Syrian Turkmen population on Talk:Syrian Turkmen. I am seeking advice on whether the claims on Harvard Divinity School's website are reliable (as it suggests a population of 100,000 for the Turkmen see here and 160,000 for Kurds in Syria see here - which I have not found in any modern academic source). There is no publication date, author, or references. Is this a reliable source? Does it actually count as academic? Thanks in advance for any insight. O.celebi ( talk) 21:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
It has been suggested that sources such as The Catholic Encyclopedia and Catholic Answers are not WP:RS for assertions about the Catholic Church in general and papal infallibility in particular, because they are not "independent". Apparently, the only way to document facts about Catholicism is by anti-Catholic sources whose agenda is refutation of Catholic doctrines? Just how "independent" does a RS have to be? I was under the impression that this was designed to exclude press releases, company blogs, and advertisements from dominating sources. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 ( talk) 17:47, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
I have recently been informed that we should not link to "privately-hosted" sources because they are not "published". With a "published" source, we can "be confident that the text didn't change". What is a "privately-hosted" source? How is that defined by Wikipedia policy? What is the term for a "non-privately-hosted" site? Why is Google, a private company, not a private host? Why can we be more confident that nobody changed the text of a Wikisource article? Where is the previous discussion and consensus for this preference? I have been unaware of the policy up until this point. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 ( talk) 02:40, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
Apparently, the only way to document facts about Catholicism is by anti-Catholic sources whose agenda is refutation of Catholic doctrinessuggests bias on your part. It's not because you're Catholic, any time someone says "so the only way we can write about (group) is if we cite (anti-group) sources that disparage (group)?" that editor almost always has problems editing neutrally. You could be an exception, especially if you severely adjust your attitude.
However all this may be moot, as the source does not say or support the statement " statements as defined by the First Vatican Council, and he was not in fact considered a heretic, as Pope Leo II described findings of the Council, that Honorius was merely negligent and should have done more to combat the heresy." because it says "It is clear that no Catholic has the right to defend Pope Honorius. He was a heretic, not in intention, but in fact" and in fact it has nothing to say about anti-Catholics. Slatersteven ( talk) 09:19, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 240 | Archive 241 | Archive 242 | Archive 243 | Archive 244 | Archive 245 | → | Archive 250 |
The article in question is Jewish partisans, the content is this diff, and the sources in question are:
Christopher Browning is a historian specializing in the Holocaust, Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, formerly (retired 2014) Distinguished Professor at Pacific Lutheran University and chaired at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. David Cesarani (deceased 2015, aged 58) was a research professor at Royal Holloway, University of London specializing in the Holocaust. Sarah Kavanaugh is a history PHD (2003) and has held a number of academic positions since 2004. Icewhiz ( talk) 05:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC) Correction/Addition - the book chapter in the work edited by Cesarani is by Antony Polonsky - whose credentials in Polish Jewish history are quite established. Icewhiz ( talk) 11:48, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
However they offer very general and stereotypical sweeping statements. The Polish sources have more in depth analysis of the subject and more detailed information. We have in fact one dedicated source and two very general ones. Therefore sources aren’t of equal weight, as one is more detailed scholarly study of the subject. This is in fact a content dispute as Icewhiz wants to delete a more detailed information and present a very general pov statement based on cherry picked sources, which in fact is incorrect-for example Home Army and Jewish partisants cooperated in other areas than Volhyn-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 10:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
"the institute overall is influenced by the Polish right wing and operates in a nationalist framework that glorifies Polish resistance and non-complicity") by a researcher not particularly known (though he has been in the press lately after the Polish government agency decided to remove him from research and bar publication of his habilitation thesis - [1] [2] - demonstrating IPN's bias) - does not seem to support the text it was sourcing in the article per my reading - however such a source from a highly biased government agency and in a language other than English is not appropriate when we have several high quality sources in English which we prefer per WP:NOENG. Icewhiz ( talk) 11:56, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I will also note that the Polish government agency document is being mosrepresented - it actually mainly agrees with Polonsky. You can see it via google translate here. Some translated quotations:
The problem is wider. In Jewish historiography, there is a view that if Jews were admitted to AK units, they were only individual - they were few cases. In the article Poland after the Holocaust, Iwona Irwin-Zarecka wrote: "The Home Army, the largest underground organization, had some [some] Jews, some were even officers, but did not reveal that they were Jews." According to this historiography, as wrote Yisrael Gutman and Shmuel Krakowski in Unequal Victims. Poles and Jews During World War II"Both the Office of the Delegate and the Home Army considered themselves authorized to represent and defend only ethnic Poles." .... Recently, also Polish historians have stated that the Polish Underground State "did not include other national groups", was "ethnic in some sense", or otherwise - "apart from certain exceptions - the state of Poles", but they derive it from a different reason than Jewish historians. For some historians, this was the result of poor identification or lack of links between some Jews and the Polish (underground) state, as well as the Polish authorities' lack of trust in the Jews because of their attitudes at the beginning of the war:The author goes on to discuss a roundtable of Polish historians at the IPN who mainly agree with him. He summarizes with
Jewish units, as a rule, did not receive proposals to join the AK structures. The exception is probably a combat unit made up of Jews, subject to AK, which was formed near the Polish village of Hanaczów (in Eastern Galicia), where there was so-called self-defense.
It seems that the central bodies of the Home Army and the Delegation saw Jewish units as "bands" as "foreign" groups, and considered them to be communized. It certainly affected the way of looking at AKPs at lower levels. However, it had to be a conjugate process: the perception of "Jewish units" by local AK members shaped the "upstairs" perception.He goes on to list various examples.
The conclusion may be drawn that, although a Jew who was in hiding was not always considered a "bandit" at once, being in a partisan unit qualified by the Home Army as a "gang", he became such a person. The aforementioned Tomasz Toivi Blatt continued his conversation with a fellow Home Army friend: "» A true Home Army soldier, "Tadek replied," he does not kill Jews unless they are caught with weapons. "Although it may happen that some Poles who rob members of the Home Army are robbing and murder Jews. "
There are also known cases of AK co-operation with Jewish units in other occupied areas of the Second Polish Republic - in Eastern Galicia and in Volhynia. The AK and Jewish partisans approached the "common enemy" - partisan units of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army- which is the same exception noted by Polonsky.
It seems, therefore, that the perception of Jewish troops by the Home Army and the Delegation as "band", "alienated" and "commmonised" has developed in a complicated, complex process and resulted from the way of thinking and strategy adopted, from prejudices against Jews, and partly from the objective phenomenon of banditry of partisan units.
In short, the Polish document does not contradict Polonsky, and in fact to a large extent agrees with him. This misrepresentation of this Polish language source demonstrates why WP:NOENG is policy - many editors will not vet a non-English source, leaving Wikipedia to AGF with those who introduce the source - which is not the case with an English language source which one can verify readily. Icewhiz ( talk) 18:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
The Institute of National Remembrance, supposed to protect national memory, is today engaging in activities that destroy this memory. Today’s memory police resort to the hateful methods of the communist secret services and direct them at a victim of this very secret service. These policemen violate the truth and fundamental ethical principles. They do harm to Poland
Both sources are reliable and nobody disputes this. If Icewhiz wants to remove other sources and information then it is a question for completely different discussion. it is worth noting that here we have a situation in which the user seems to chase his own tail so to speak(for lack of better metaphor by this non-native English speaker). The source was first questioned as being from IPN and then defended as being criticized by IPN for being too pro-Jewish in views. I am afraid that this demonstrates if a source as pro-Jewish as Pulawski does go into detail and provides examples of cooperation between AK and Jewish Partisants it just demonstrates how radical and extreme the claim that Home Army were murderous antisemties is. Pulawski is critized as being pro-Jewish and highly critical towards Polish resistance and even he is attacked by Icewhiz for not being too radical in his assesments while using his figure to attack other Polish scholarly institution. However this goes beyond the scope of this discussion-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:10, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
The Polish Home Army provided some training to Warsaw Ghetto's Jewish Combat Organization, but generally did not accept Jewish groups (with the exception of Volhynia, where a Ukranian-Polish conflict raged and the Home Army was eager to cooperate with Jewish groups) and was reluctant to accept Jewish individuals. Antisemitism and killing of Jews was also an issue in the Home Army as made clear by Browning and most other sources - however that is not what we are discussing sourcing. Icewhiz ( talk) 20:21, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Polish Home Army provided training to Warsaw Ghetto's Jewish Combat Organization, and included in its ranks Jewish individuals and Jewish units, such as Lukawiecki Partisants commanded by Edmund Łukawiecki and working under the umbrella of Home Army[16][17], and Jewish Platoon Wigry which took part in 1944 Warsaw Uprising[18]. It also collaborated with Jewish units in self-defence operations[19]- which per sources discussed here are rare exceptions to the rule, and are not presented as such. Finally, WP:NOENG and use of (yet more) low quality non-English sources is a RS issue. Icewhiz ( talk) 21:54, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I am writing to ask someone to take a closer look at Meetup (website). Specifically, the part that says “and lacking the funds necessary to compete against rising competition.” I cannot find a cited source for that statement. The citation in question is here ( https://www.wired.com/story/why-wework-is-buying-meetup/).
I've previously posted about this on the Talk page here
As indicated in my profile, I work at Meetup.
" Kristin hodgson at meetup ( talk) 19:09, 14 June 2018 (UTC)"
Is this source reliable to include the following sentence in the article People's Mujahedin of Iran?
The CIA's former Chief of Station in Tehran, George Cave, described the attack as the first instance of a remotely detonated improvised explosive device.
— Peter Earnest (June 21, 2012). "Our Man in the Middle East (Part 1)". www.spymuseum.org (Podcast). International Spy Museum. Event occurs at 34:21-35:07. Retrieved April 1, 2015.
– Pahlevun ( talk) 21:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I am currently using the following source ( AfterElton Briefs: A Year Of Father Hotties, Britney Gets The Axe, and Tom Daley Wants a Kiss) in the Lady Blue (TV series) article. During the FAC for the article, a question on whether or not NewNowNext.com is "a high-quality reliable source" was raised during the source review. Here is a link to the about page ( About Us), which includes a list of the editors, and I believe that it shows that the site has editorial oversight. The source used for the article was written by the site's managing editor. My question is: would this source be acceptable for a featured article? Thank you in advance! Aoba47 ( talk) 22:59, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Are “true crime” books considered a reliable source for biographies of mass murderers or serial killers? Obviously, these books are mostly factual, but contain a significant degree of fictionalization, mostly to add drama to the story, as well as to protect privacy and confidentiality, so they aren’t as reliable as academic/scholarly sources about the topic. Would they still be considered a reliable source?— Preceding unsigned comment added by MBridges1996 ( talk • contribs)
Hello,
I have been trying to edit the article Hadith of Najd by removing content from websites that clearly fail WP:RS. I would like confirmation that the sites are unreliable for Wikipedia. The sites in question are:
Most of the material for the article has been taken word for word from this page [5] and seems to be a clear violation of WP:COPYRIGHT and also seems completely unreliable. Also, the author seems spurious (who on earth is Abu Rumaysah - hopefully not this guy). Thank you. 2A01:4B00:88BB:E000:DCC7:6D14:2026:586D ( talk) 09:25, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Copyright problems should be reported at Wikipedia:Copyright problems. -- Emir of Wikipedia ( talk) 15:57, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Two editors are removing ( here and here) the following source:
The content comes from an interview given to this Gaza-based reporter by the mother of Razan al-Najjar, concerning the life of her daughter before she was shot dead i.e.
According to her mother, Najjar attended every Friday event from 7am and 8pm, and would return home spattered with the blood of those whom she had tendered care to.
There are two arguments in the edit summaries against this, WP:Undue, and Middle East Eye is not RS. This board has never determined that. A brief discussion with one of the reverters took place here.
The source Hind Khoudary (22) is one of the few female reporters used by foreign media for what’s going on the ground there. (Hamza Saftawi and Miriam Berger To Be a Palestinian Journalist in Gaza Is to Be Always Under Threat The Nation 27 April 2018) She works as a translator and journalist for outlets like Kuwait’s national channel, RT News , the Electronic Intifada, Middle East Eye, Mondoweiss and Libération. There’s no doubt RT is viewed with a dim eye, and I would never use it. But as for the others, they are reasonable outlets for a journeyman reporter in this context, and her work on Gaza fishermen’s plight for the Electronic Intifada was recommended by The Jerusalem Fund; her work on Hamas-Fatah reconciliation has been cited in the Council on Foreign Relations daily news wrap up as a useful analysis; Libération also cite her for what’s going on inside Gaza.
I believe in strong sourcing where possible, but where conditions on the ground make coverage extremely difficult, and the material happens to be, in my view, innocuous background detail from a local reporter interviewing someone, then I cannot see good reason to exclude it. I would exclude MEE if we were dealing with extraordinary claims or otherwise unattested facts. Neutral third party input would be appreciated. For involved editors, please refrain from turning this into another I/P bagfight. Nishidani ( talk) 17:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I dont think this is even the right question. Middle East Eye, here, is used as a source for an interview with the victim's mother. There isnt any indication that they did not faithfully and accurately report what her mother said. Even if one wanted to say that MEE is generally not a RS, which I would dispute, the idea that they shouldnt be sourced for an interview they had is absurd. What evidence is there that they did not conduct this interview? None, this is strictly an effort to deny a voice to the mother of the subject of the article. If I werent already so jaded from my years here ... nableezy - 18:38, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
And to the point on reliability, here are other sources citing Middle East Eye:
This is a source often cited by other reliable sources. Nothing has been given as evidence that it is "fringe", that is a completely baseless claim, made only to remove what a victims mother said about her daughter. nableezy - 19:45, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Widely respected sources consider Middle East Eye reliable enough to cite it. The personal ideology of a news organization's employees is irrelevant as to whether their reporting is reliable.-- Tdl1060 ( talk) 20:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
an ip user keep on censoring the wikipedia content in ZTE, at first he claimed this is WP:original research (but it actually an article by Curtis J. Milhaupt), then claim it is not an approved source. Please revert his edit Special:Diff/846126374 if it really an reliable source. Matthew_hk t c 14:15, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Would you consider an FBI case file to be a reliable source for basic biographical information? Radical activist Robert F. Stern's article uses his FBI casefile as a reliable source. I think we can all agree that it is not necessarily a good source for someone's views, but I believe it should be used to substantiate basic biographical information.-- TM 17:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Title is pretty self explanatory. Anyways, I know that people regard these sources as the most reliable and objective news sources, but can they ever report information that is inaccurate, misleading, or false. (This is mostly by accident because the information was believed to be true at the time). Or report information that we cannot really confirm or deny because it’s just so vague and they don’t give a lot of background information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MBridges1996 ( talk • contribs)
Well-established wire services with a good track record for reliability and an explicit editorial presence are generally considered WP:RS, but no source is infallible. And as said above, different sourcing/evidence criteria apply for different topics. -- The Anome ( talk) 11:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
It depends on how the AP, et alia is cited. For example, assume the fictional case where a wire story reports that researchers at X organization discover ABC is a cure for Made-up disease. The problem is taking this article & writing "ABC is a cure for Made-up disease", which is a blanket, absolute statement & asserts a fact that may not be in evidence; many preliminary reports of discoveries or cures later prove not to be the case. However, using that wire story to write, "Researchers at X organization reported success using ABC to cure Made-up disease" would be acceptable, since it is a fact that people reported that success. And while some would prefer to use a more specialized publication to cite for this statement, at least the fact of the statement has been corroborated, & someone else with better knowledge of the subject can then replace the wire story with a better citation. (This careful handling makes this a case of the perfect is the enemy of good.) -- llywrch ( talk) 17:15, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello, folks. I'm putting together a rewrite of the infamous Mokele-mbembe, but I'm having some trouble making sense of the sources. For those of you haven't been involved in the recent pseudoscience cleanup efforts in these areas (articles around the living dinosaur- Young Earth creationism- cryptozoology pseudoscience circle, that is), this article may be perplexing and the topic requires a little background.
Essentially, the article is written like so many others related to it on Wikipedia: mostly in direct violation of WP:PROFRINGE. Individuals who fall out of line with the fringe view, like academics, are described as a "skeptic" and ushered into the back. Heavy emphasis is placed on "sightings", etc. Where this one differs from the usually quackery is that reliable sources on this topic in fact do exist (thus meeting WP:FRIND), but they tell a very different story than the current article does. It turns out that a lot of the material produced on this topic results from Young Earth creationist-cryptozoologist overlap, as paleontologist Donald Prothero's work on this topic illustrates (see his The Story of Life in 25 Fossils: Tales of Intrepid Fossil Hunters and the Wonders of Evolution, pp.232-234, Columbia University Press and also Abominable Science: Origins of the Yeti, Nessie, and other Famous Cryptids, pp. 115-116, 262-265, Columbia University Press with Loxton).
In short, creationist groups have been funding cryptozoologist trips to Africa to find this purported dinosaur (or, if you're a cryptozoologist, a "cryptid") for quite some time now (reaching back as far as the 1980s, even). Their goal? To 'prove evolution wrong'. Typically, while well known, you won't find this less than savory fact mentioned by notable adherents of the pseudoscience themselves (but you might find a citation or two to genesispark.com from cryptozoologists, like in George M. Eberhart's Mysterious Creatures: A Guide to Cryptozoology(!)). It all makes for a case book example of why WP:FRIND is so important in these corners.
This idea of Mokele-mbembe comes from somewhere, yet the ultimate source of these concepts seems pretty blurry. A lot of writers mention it comes from some kind of folk belief, but that may not actually be the case. For example, editors who have researched the history of the concept of the yeti knows that this can be a complex topic, perhaps even resulting from some kind of misunderstanding in translation, and then taking on a life of its own. Anyway, does anyone know of any solid sources on the origin of the Mokele-mbembe concept? Any specialist linguists, anthropologists, or folklorists who can shine some light on how all this developed as a vehicle for the we-gotta-find-a-dinosaur-to-prove-evolution-is-wrong crowd? :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:39, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Please, may someone who knows about law decide which source is more valid to determine when Mariano Rajoy's term ended? According to the Spanish Constitution (Art. 101) and the date the BOE published the Royal Decrees dismissing Rajoy and appointing Sánchez as Prime Minister, it should have ended on June 2, not on June 1:
(TRANSLATION: 1. The Government shall resign after the holding of general elections, in the event of loss of Parliamentary confidence as provided in the Constitution, or on account of the resignation or death of the President. 2. THE OUTGOING GOVERNMENT SHALL CONTINUE IN POWER UNTIL THE NEW GOVERNMENT TAKES OFFICE).
https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2018/06/02/
However, one user hinders me from making the change (June 2 is stated as the date Rajoy's term ended in all other Wikipedias, although I know different-language Wikipedias are independent from each other) and insists on using a chart which appears in LaMoncloa's official website as a legal criterion to determine the date. However, LaMoncloa's website is not a legal source and that chart's data may have even been extracted from Wikipedia itself - workers who are in charge of the page are obviously not lawyers and their main job is to design a beautiful website with useful information and news about the Government, but it is not their aim to specify and solve subtle legal questions of this kind. Thank you and sorry for insisting. I just would like you to understand that the sources that are being used to support that date are not legally valid. This is the chart: http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/presidente/presidentes-desde-1823/Paginas/index.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 ( talk • contribs) 14:01, June 19, 2018 (UTC) (and another dozen or so unsigned comments further down)
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/06/02/actualidad/1527918278_189826.html https://www.eldiario.es/politica/BOE-nombramiento-Pedro-Sanchez-Gobierno_0_777972243.html http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/06/02/5b1237ad46163f8b2a8b45e8.html http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20180602/444002616755/boe-pedro-sanchez-presidente-cese-rajoy.html http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-publica-cese-rajoy-y-nombramiento-sanchez-201806020830_noticia.html http://cadenaser.com/ser/2018/06/02/politica/1527924001_915647.html
LA SER: El Boletín Oficial del Estado publica este sábado los tres Reales Decretos que oficializan el relevo al frente del Gobierno. El primero de ellos es el que nombra como presidente a Pedro Sánchez. Los otros dos recogen el cese de Mariano Rajoy y de todos sus ministros.
Para evitar cualquier vacío de poder, el artículo 101.2 de la Constitución establece "El Gobierno cesante continuará en funciones hasta la toma de posesión del nuevo Gobierno". Como Pedro Sánchez ha tomado posesión este sábado, Mariano Rajoy ha sido muy pocas horas presidente en funciones.
The Government does include the Prime Minister: art. 98 of the Spanish Constitution: The Government consists of the President, Vice-Presidents, when applicable, Ministers and other members as may be created by law.
They were signed on Friday, but can't enter into force until they are published. Please read carefully from LASER's source: Para evitar cualquier vacío de poder, el artículo 101.2 de la Constitución establece "El Gobierno cesante continuará en funciones hasta la toma de posesión del nuevo Gobierno". Como Pedro Sánchez ha tomado posesión este sábado, Mariano Rajoy ha sido muy pocas horas presidente en funciones I think it's pretty clear.
Yes, it does. I'll translate. It literally says that, in order to avoid a power vacuum, the Constitution establishes that the outgoing Government shall continue in office until the new Government is sworn in. So, since Pedro Sánchez has taken office on Saturday, Mariano Rajoy has been the acting Prime Minister only for a few hours. I think it's utterly clear.
I think it is time for others to chime in. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:16, 19 June 2018
I agree. Thanks a lot for listening and giving your opinion. However, I would be extremely grateful if other users who know about law expressed their own viewpoint.
Please keep quiet until other users answer. Primary information sources are obviously more reliable that secondary information sources, which are the ones you're using - but newspapers obviously don't deal with subtle legal questions like this, so it's difficult to find an article stating that Rajoy's term ended on June 2, even if I have found one - LASER - that suggests it did, and you insist on rejecting its validity -. If we find someone who knows the actual effects of publishing a decree in BOE, our dispute will be solved.
https://www.uv.es/legalskills/validez/cundo_entran_en_vigor_las_normas.html
This is a legal source where it is explained that decrees must be published in BOE before entering into force, so Mariano Rajoy can't have stopped being PM before the decree ousting him from office was published.
Okay, but please wait until others read the discussion and answer. If we keep discussing they will not read it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 ( talk • contribs) 17:41, June 19, 2018 (UTC)
At 2018 Gaza border protests a revert specialist excised a piece by Norman Finkelstein stating unreliable sources, not an historian Norman Finkelstein Gaza:An Inquest into Its Martyrdom, University of California Press 2018.
I know the answer, which is obvious for technicians of RSB issues, but I would like external neutral confirmation. Thank you. Nishidani ( talk) 17:26, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Finkelstein’s magnum opus is both a monument to Gaza’s martyrs and an act of resistance against the forgetfulness of history.is definitely a WP:BIASED source, and would require balancing at the very least.... Note the diff you are linking to is soirced to a Mondoweiss opinion piece, which would not be RS. Icewhiz ( talk) 19:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
WP:RS#Exceptions: Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications. Such material, although written by an established author, likely lacks the fact checking that publishers provide. Avoid using them to source extraordinary claims.
Even if this were self-published Finkelstein clearly meets the threshold for established expert in the field as his works on the topic has been published by highly respected academic presses. And really, is that an exceptional claim? Somebody is actually challenging Media coverage of the events has been the object of controversy? That is literally the most mundane fact about any topic in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. nableezy - 05:54, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Though this board is not for discussion of information of WP:UNDUE his opinion is WP:UNDUE and also who decided that he such expert on Gaza matters and facts?-- Shrike ( talk) 07:01, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
He is RS, he is a noted commentator and recognized expert and it was published by a reputable publisher. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:48, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Does the content provided by sources referenced in the article satisfy the guidelines on the notability of organizations and companies? Per recent feedback from a wiki contributor, "This submission's references do not adequately show the subject's notability. Wikipedia requires significant coverage (not just mere mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject". I would like to get other opinions on this topic.
Article: Draft:SenRa — Preceding unsigned comment added by TekJunky ( talk • contribs) 08:33, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Input requested on this: Naliboki Forest: Historical outline and ethnographical sketch, pages 1024-1026, by Prof. Dr. Vadim Sidorovich of the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus. The article in question is Naliboki massacre (which at present uses rather poor sources (mainly interim reports by a prosecutor's office) and for which this is a distinct lack of English RS (there is some newspaper reporting on the outrage of the prosecutor's actions - but little on the historical events themselves)) and incorporation of material from Sidorovich regarding Naliboki village in the months prior to May 1943 and May 1943. The publisher is Chatyry Chverci from Minsk. The work has been peer reviewed by Prof. Dr. Mikhail Nikiforov (National Academy of Sciences of Belarus), Prof Dr. Uldazimir Bahinski (National Academy of Sciences of Belarus), Prof. Dr. Frieder Luz ( Weihenstephan-Triesdorf University of Applied Science), Prof Dr. Wlodzimierz Jedrzejewski, and Prof Dr. Annick Schnitzler ( University of Lorraine). The author is an expert on the Naliboki forest, and the work itself is a 3 part anthology - the first part on land and plant communities, the second on wild animals, and the third is this volume which is a Historical outline and ethnographical sketch. Icewhiz ( talk) 09:28, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
The first issue of the WikiJournal of Science was published recently; it can be seen here. This is a Wikimedia project, hosted at Wikiversity. Is it a reliable source?
A discussion has been taking place at Iridescent's talk page, and the majority opinion there seems to be that it is not. That's not really the best place to get visibility for a community consensus, though, so I am posting here in the hope of getting a discussion that we can point to in the future.
Disclosure: I am the author of one of the articles in the first issue of WikiJSci and plan to abstain from !voting below as a result. I had assumed it would be considered a reliable source, but I have no problem if the consensus is that it is not.
Pinging those involved in the earlier conversation, including the lead in to that conversation: Iridescent, Anthonyhcole, Evolution and evolvability, EEng, Ealdgyth, Mikael Häggström, Sylvain Ribault, Izno, Noswall59, Hawkeye7, Only in death, Floquenbeam, Jo-Jo Eumerus, Sitush, TonyBallioni, Johnbod, Rachel Helps (BYU), Natureium. Mike Christie ( talk - contribs - library) 01:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
The traditional science and medicine publishing model relies on the reputation of the publisher. This is placing one's blind faith on the publisher. For all we know, even Elseiver has done really sketchy stuff (see Australasian Journal of Bone & Joint Medicine and 5 other journals that are ghost written by big pharma). I'm not saying that all Elseiver journals are sketchy, but it should be judged independently and not with blanket assumptions. OhanaUnited Talk page 17:44, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
model relies on the reputation. He didn't say blindly. E Eng 17:51, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
in the general context of academic publishing. That's clearly generalization. And I have provided an example where even reputable publisher does sketchy stuff in the name of profit. Then he said
Wikijournal allows the reviewers to remain anonymous. As Mikael Häggström pointed out, most journals don't reveal who the reviewers are, or even the peer-review reports. What I am seeing right now is that quite a number of people flatly saying "no" rather than "wait and see" as other new, nameless journals are afforded to out of courtesy. OhanaUnited Talk page 20:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
WikiJournal has no reputation yet; as a WMF project it has the reputation for accuracy that every other WMF project has, which is—for good reason—extremely low. I would be willing to bet a fair amount that few other journals have a disclaimer of this nature prominently linked from every page (and subject-specific disclaimers such as
There is absolutely no assurance that any statement contained or cited in an article touching on medical matters is true, correct, precise, or up-to-datelinked from the relevant pages as well). There are some scientific journals—particularly in specialist areas such as engineering and animal husbandry—where individual writers have such a reputation for accuracy that peer review isn't even considered necessary (the London Railway Record is pretty much a one-man operation published from the editor's house, but if anyone tries to tell me it's not a reliable source on urban rail design and planning I'll laugh in their face) but that relies on the author(s) in question having built up a reputation over decades for accuracy and (equally importantly) for prompt corrections. Wikimedia is never going to develop a reputation for accuracy—if anything, the WMF would probably summarily close the Wikijournals if it did look like they were developing a reputation as independent sources in their own right, since it would destroy §230 protection if we abandoned the "we're just repeating what other sources say" defense; consequently the only path to RS-hood is by way of contributor reputation, which it's hard to imagine developing on a project where it's a matter of faith who is operating what account. ‑ Iridescent 11:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES ARE GIVEN AS TO THE ACCURACY OR COMPLETENESS OF THE INFORMATION PROVIDED ON THIS WEB SITE, OR ANY WEB SITE TO WHICH IT IS LINKED.(That's their all-caps screaming, by the way.) The New England Journal of Medicine has a similar disclaimer, under the Terms link at the bottom of – you guessed it – every single page:
The [publisher] makes no warranty that the operation of the Services will be uninterrupted or error-free or as to the accuracy, completeness, suitability, or result obtained from the use of the Services or any content included therein.That's just a taste; both pages go on at rather more length about how you absolutely should not rely on them. You'll find similar disclaimers on the websites of the New York Times, and the BBC, and just about everywhere else. (If anything, the absence of a content disclaimer should probably be seen as a mild warning signal.) TenOfAllTrades( talk) 13:32, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
As others are alluding to, but I may as well say directly, I can't imagine any circumstances in which it would ever be legitimate to cite anything from Wikipedia/Wikiversity other than as a primary source in an article about Wikipedia. If the statement being cited includes sources, we should be citing those sources and not the Wikipedia page; if the statement being cited doesn't include sources, it has no place being cited on Wikipedia. Unsourced statements published in reliable sources we can use, since by footnoting it we're de facto saying "according to Foo" and consequently allowing readers to know where to go to query the source's credentials. The Wikijournal model, not so much, as we have no way of knowing whether either the authors of the page, or the people conducting the peer review, are Nobel laureates or Joe Blow from Kokomo; we've had high-profile problems with Wikipedia editors impersonating academics to try to give their views extra weight in the past. (As an obvious example, the thread that prompted this thread came about as a result of my being invited to contribute to WikiJournals; I very much doubt that any of the Wikijournal people have more than the faintest idea of who I am, let alone of what my qualifications are, whether I hold any particularly eccentric or objectionable views, or indeed whether I'm in fact a twelve year old child, a committee of twenty people who take turns using the account, or editing Wikipedia from a terminal in a secure psychiatric unit.) ‑ Iridescent 09:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
At Frankfurt (Oder), an editor has inserted the following sources, to support the fact that supposedly the city's name in Polish is "Słubice":
This conflicts with what appears to be actual Polish usage (looking on the Polish wiki, pl:Słubice clearly refers to the city on the east side of the Oder (in Poland) while a translation of the German name is used for the part that is in Germany (west of the Oder), pl:Frankfurt nad Odrą. The sources seem to be obsolete, too, since they're over 70 yrs old - way too old to be used as sources for current Polish usage. At best, the sources could be used to support the historical name of the city having been "Słubice" in Polish. Despite this being brought up on the article talk page, in edit summaries and on the other involved editor's talk page, I have no reply from the other party on the matter (except something which looks like WP:ABF). So, simple question: are these sources acceptable, or would they be disqualified under WP:RS AGE? 198.84.253.202 ( talk) 15:15, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I began a discussion at ' Template_talk:Convert#Reliable_sources?' regarding the sources used for the template computations. Since this template is widely used for presenting data conversions, including on FA articles, I think the need for reliable sources is clear. Am I out of line on this? Thanks. Praemonitus ( talk) 23:50, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Over at the article Mami Kawada, no age is given as she as, as far as I can tell, she has not publicly stated her year of birth. However, this article by Sports Hochi gives her age as 37; the article was published on February 4, 2018, and for reference, her birthday is February 13. Based on this source and the circumstances, what would be the best option here: list her year of birth as 1980, give a range for her year of birth (i.e. born 1980 or 1981), or omit the year of birth entirely (i.e. status quo)? Narutolovehinata5 t c csd new 21:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Please, may someone who knows about law decide which source is more valid to determine when Mariano Rajoy's term ended? According to the Spanish Constitution (Art. 101) and the date the BOE published the Royal Decrees dismissing Rajoy and appointing Sánchez as Prime Minister, it should have ended on June 2, not on June 1: Art. 101 El Gobierno cesa tras la celebración de elecciones generales, en los casos de pérdida de la confianza parlamentaria previstos en la Constitución, o por dimisión o fallecimiento de su Presidente.
El Gobierno cesante continuará en funciones hasta la toma de posesión del nuevo Gobierno.
(TRANSLATION: 1. The Government shall resign after the holding of general elections, in the event of loss of Parliamentary confidence as provided in the Constitution, or on account of the resignation or death of the President. 2. THE OUTGOING GOVERNMENT SHALL CONTINUE IN POWER UNTIL THE NEW GOVERNMENT TAKES OFFICE).
https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2018/06/02/
However, one user hinders me from making the change (June 2 is stated as the date Rajoy's term ended in all other Wikipedias, although I know different-language Wikipedias are independent from each other) and insists on using a chart which appears in LaMoncloa's official website as a legal criterion to determine the date. However, LaMoncloa's website is not a legal source and that chart's data may have even been extracted from Wikipedia itself - workers who are in charge of the page are obviously not lawyers and their main job is to design a beautiful website with useful information and news about the Government, but it is not their aim to specify and solve subtle legal questions of this kind. Thank you and sorry for insisting. I just would like you to understand that the sources that are being used to support that date are not legally valid. This is the chart: http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/presidente/presidentes-desde-1823/Paginas/index.aspx
However, Rajoy's term ended on June 2, not on June 1. It specifically ended when Sánchez became Prime Minister. There cannot be a power vacuum between both days (Pedro Sánchez's term is already said to begin on June 2). The Royal Decrees published in the Official Diary of the State were signed on June 1, but were published the following day, and therefore did not come into force until that same day. The day the decree was signed has no legal validity. Please check how the Decree which made Rajoy Prime Minister in 2011 was also signed one day before it came into force - it was signed on December 20, the day he was elected by the Congress of Deputies, but Rajoy only became Prime Minister one day later, when the Decree was published and he was sworn in. This same article states that his first term began on December 21, so there is an obvious contradiction between both dates, because two different criteria are being followed. I can guarantee you that the correct criterium is the 21 December - 2 June one, which is the one that has been followed to fix the date Rajoy's term began and also to establish the dates when former Spanish Prime Ministers began and finished their terms. Thanks a lot for your attention. Check: http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/12/21/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-19861.pdf
So what do you think? Could someone answer please? Hello?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 ( talk) 22:01, 12 June 2018
I started the Del Barber article a number of years ago. Recently, I've been adding more information and more sources. There are lots of sources on Del. Now, there are certain parts of the article in which I've sourced with lots of sources. Some of his influences have four sources. You always want to source information, but can you over source? Mr. C.C. Hey yo! I didn't do it! 15:07, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I was wondering if I could use the following source ( 1) for the The Beautician and the Beast article. I would be using to expand information on the film's soundtrack. However, I am assuming that this site would not be usable on Wikipedia, but I just wanted to double-check to make sure. Thank you in advance and I apologize if this is obvious. Aoba47 ( talk) 18:58, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
There is currently a dispute regarding the Syrian Turkmen population on Talk:Syrian Turkmen. I am seeking advice on whether the claims on Harvard Divinity School's website are reliable (as it suggests a population of 100,000 for the Turkmen see here and 160,000 for Kurds in Syria see here - which I have not found in any modern academic source). There is no publication date, author, or references. Is this a reliable source? Does it actually count as academic? Thanks in advance for any insight. O.celebi ( talk) 21:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
It has been suggested that sources such as The Catholic Encyclopedia and Catholic Answers are not WP:RS for assertions about the Catholic Church in general and papal infallibility in particular, because they are not "independent". Apparently, the only way to document facts about Catholicism is by anti-Catholic sources whose agenda is refutation of Catholic doctrines? Just how "independent" does a RS have to be? I was under the impression that this was designed to exclude press releases, company blogs, and advertisements from dominating sources. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 ( talk) 17:47, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
I have recently been informed that we should not link to "privately-hosted" sources because they are not "published". With a "published" source, we can "be confident that the text didn't change". What is a "privately-hosted" source? How is that defined by Wikipedia policy? What is the term for a "non-privately-hosted" site? Why is Google, a private company, not a private host? Why can we be more confident that nobody changed the text of a Wikisource article? Where is the previous discussion and consensus for this preference? I have been unaware of the policy up until this point. 2600:8800:1880:91E:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 ( talk) 02:40, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
Apparently, the only way to document facts about Catholicism is by anti-Catholic sources whose agenda is refutation of Catholic doctrinessuggests bias on your part. It's not because you're Catholic, any time someone says "so the only way we can write about (group) is if we cite (anti-group) sources that disparage (group)?" that editor almost always has problems editing neutrally. You could be an exception, especially if you severely adjust your attitude.
However all this may be moot, as the source does not say or support the statement " statements as defined by the First Vatican Council, and he was not in fact considered a heretic, as Pope Leo II described findings of the Council, that Honorius was merely negligent and should have done more to combat the heresy." because it says "It is clear that no Catholic has the right to defend Pope Honorius. He was a heretic, not in intention, but in fact" and in fact it has nothing to say about anti-Catholics. Slatersteven ( talk) 09:19, 24 June 2018 (UTC)