There is significant disagreement on the recent GA review of this article on the article talkpage at Talk:Roman Empire#GA review. The review was vary rapid, without opportunities for more experienced editors to contribute.
This is formalising a process that has already begun on the article talkpage, so editors may have to repeat or repaste some of the points already made there. Please ensure you are familiar with the Wikipedia:Good article criteria ( Wikipedia:What the Good article criteria are not may also be useful). Major issues that have been highlighted so far are in the areas of "counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged", and that the article has gaps in coverage does not "address the main aspects of the topic". The best result of this process would be that the article retains GA status because the view of the community is that it either does so already, or that it is improved sufficiently to meet those criteria, so any help towards improving the article by editors is much appreciated.-- SabreBD ( talk) 09:55, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
I followed the Criteria faithfully. I could not undertake a full review of the article because the article was very large and I did not have the luxury of time. The review that I wrote was based on what I saw. As I also stated in the Review, I expressed concern with the "in theory" section as I thought it could be classified under a "word to watch", yet I was unsure - I was not willing to impose my own criteria, as this would have broken the rules about reviewing GA nominees.
I still stand by my findings in the article, and, on a literal reading of the rules, I still believe that the article deserves its GA status.
--The Historian 13:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
From the comments above: Yes, and the fact that you approved it so fast, while having no prior interest in the article, is strong evidence that the article easily met the GA criteria.
That strikes me as backwards logic, especially when the reviewer even says he couldn't undertake a full review. I thought the article was OK (at a B level) on skimming it, except for the abysmal section on Culture, until I took time to read it carefully. I might also read an article on physics, and be highly impressed with it and all the pretty graphics without realizing whether it was inaccurate or missing important pieces of information. Even an FA can have room for improvement, but Roman Empire fails the criterion of GA-level coverage, because it covers some aspects of the topic in idiosyncratic detail, while covering others inadequately or with astounding errors and omissions. These are not minor points: they are fundamental gaps in encyclopedic coverage and misrepresentations, to the extent that I wouldn't let my 15-year-old daughter, who's currently taking World History as a sophomore in high school, read this article for fear of confusing her.
A major omission is a section describing Roman society, what constitutes Roman citizenship and its expansion, the rise of wealthy freedmen in business, Roman family structure, trade guilds or social fraternities, or even a section on slavery—an aspect of Roman society that readers often express interest in, and one that's important to get right because it differs so dramatically from the form of race-based slavery practiced in the 19th-century American South. And one might assume from reading the article that women in ancient Rome were fairly rare creatures.
The Government section is missing most of what constituted government in the Imperial era: there's no description of the bureaucracy, of the neighborhood administration of the vici based on Augustus's reorganization of the city of Rome (which facilitated the shifting of power from local patrons to the emperor), no description of the local offices throughout the provinces that are so well documented by inscriptions. This bureaucracy and civil service is how the empire survived crazy emperors and imperial assassinations and rapid successions—keeping the water running despite the power gaming at the top.
There's no description of how the topography of the city changed during the building program of Augustus and throughout the Empire, no description of the ethnic neighborhoods, and no larger geographical description of the Provinces, only two of which are even named in the "Provinces" section. That section is a very thin and confused account of government, without anything about taxation (given the smallest of mentions in other sections), nor indications of the range of ethnicities or who these subject peoples were.
To repeat my comment from Talk:Roman Empire, the "Culture" section is a mere hodgepodge: for instance, we move from slavery in one paragraph to a paragraph on the Campus Martius for no apparent reason. In the paragraph on Latin literature, no historian is named (no Tacitus or Suetonius), and the emphasis is on Vergil, who just barely qualifies as an Imperial writer (he was born under the Republic and died less than a decade after Octavian assumed the title Augustus). No description of Greek literature of the Roman Empire ( Plutarch, for one). Also, the section misses a fundamental distinction between the way the Romans thought of "the arts" and the way we do: people at even the highest ranks of society might practice literature (this was an aspect of elite education), whereas the performing arts and visual arts were mainly created by either free people of below-equestrian rank or by slaves. "Oratory" (characteristic of the Republic, as in Cicero) is confused with "rhetoric" (as in Quintilian); this should reflect the change from a republic in which citizens participated in politics through free speech and persuasion (oratory), to the subordination of the citizen to the emperor and the need to parse carefully what you say (rhetoric). No mention of imperial panegyric as a characteristic literary form distinguishing Imperial literature from Republican. There is one passing mention of "calendar with a leap year," but nothing about holidays and ludi (games) as they were celebrated in the Empire. The "Culture" section seems to deal with "ancient Rome" in general, not the specific culture of the Empire, as if nothing changed from 500 BC to 200 AD.
There's no paragraph on Roman law, even though this is one of the major "Legacy" contributions of ancient Rome. Roman roads are mentioned only in "Legacy." Aqueducts in Rome only are mentioned in one sentence, where one learns (or at least this was strange to me) that they had something to do with importing wine and oil; aqueducts in the provinces go unmentioned, even though the most famous examples are not in Italy, and we should certainly have a photo of the Pont du Gard or Aqueduct of Segovia in the article.
In the current version, the sections on Religion and Languages seem disproportionately long, without being sufficiently informative. The Languages section wanders into "Literature" and "Education," and makes claims in the last two paragraphs that require citations.
Ten times we are told that something is "important," often enough to indicate that the word is a non-informative stopgap for actually saying something.
A more conventional encyclopedic structure would go something like (the order might vary):
There are a number of capable editors who have contributed to Roman Empire, and pointing out that it doesn't meet GA standards at present in no way disparages their efforts. There are books and books written on the subject, and boiling it down to a readable, well-organized encyclopedia article that's useful for its most likely readers is an extremely difficult task. But the coverage gaps are significant. Cynwolfe ( talk) 12:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
A lot of work still going on. Do we have a rough timeframe for when it will be at GA standard? I think important articles like this deserve a bit longer to get fixed, but it has been a while. AIRcorn (talk) 09:22, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
There is significant disagreement on the recent GA review of this article on the article talkpage at Talk:Roman Empire#GA review. The review was vary rapid, without opportunities for more experienced editors to contribute.
This is formalising a process that has already begun on the article talkpage, so editors may have to repeat or repaste some of the points already made there. Please ensure you are familiar with the Wikipedia:Good article criteria ( Wikipedia:What the Good article criteria are not may also be useful). Major issues that have been highlighted so far are in the areas of "counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged", and that the article has gaps in coverage does not "address the main aspects of the topic". The best result of this process would be that the article retains GA status because the view of the community is that it either does so already, or that it is improved sufficiently to meet those criteria, so any help towards improving the article by editors is much appreciated.-- SabreBD ( talk) 09:55, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
I followed the Criteria faithfully. I could not undertake a full review of the article because the article was very large and I did not have the luxury of time. The review that I wrote was based on what I saw. As I also stated in the Review, I expressed concern with the "in theory" section as I thought it could be classified under a "word to watch", yet I was unsure - I was not willing to impose my own criteria, as this would have broken the rules about reviewing GA nominees.
I still stand by my findings in the article, and, on a literal reading of the rules, I still believe that the article deserves its GA status.
--The Historian 13:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
From the comments above: Yes, and the fact that you approved it so fast, while having no prior interest in the article, is strong evidence that the article easily met the GA criteria.
That strikes me as backwards logic, especially when the reviewer even says he couldn't undertake a full review. I thought the article was OK (at a B level) on skimming it, except for the abysmal section on Culture, until I took time to read it carefully. I might also read an article on physics, and be highly impressed with it and all the pretty graphics without realizing whether it was inaccurate or missing important pieces of information. Even an FA can have room for improvement, but Roman Empire fails the criterion of GA-level coverage, because it covers some aspects of the topic in idiosyncratic detail, while covering others inadequately or with astounding errors and omissions. These are not minor points: they are fundamental gaps in encyclopedic coverage and misrepresentations, to the extent that I wouldn't let my 15-year-old daughter, who's currently taking World History as a sophomore in high school, read this article for fear of confusing her.
A major omission is a section describing Roman society, what constitutes Roman citizenship and its expansion, the rise of wealthy freedmen in business, Roman family structure, trade guilds or social fraternities, or even a section on slavery—an aspect of Roman society that readers often express interest in, and one that's important to get right because it differs so dramatically from the form of race-based slavery practiced in the 19th-century American South. And one might assume from reading the article that women in ancient Rome were fairly rare creatures.
The Government section is missing most of what constituted government in the Imperial era: there's no description of the bureaucracy, of the neighborhood administration of the vici based on Augustus's reorganization of the city of Rome (which facilitated the shifting of power from local patrons to the emperor), no description of the local offices throughout the provinces that are so well documented by inscriptions. This bureaucracy and civil service is how the empire survived crazy emperors and imperial assassinations and rapid successions—keeping the water running despite the power gaming at the top.
There's no description of how the topography of the city changed during the building program of Augustus and throughout the Empire, no description of the ethnic neighborhoods, and no larger geographical description of the Provinces, only two of which are even named in the "Provinces" section. That section is a very thin and confused account of government, without anything about taxation (given the smallest of mentions in other sections), nor indications of the range of ethnicities or who these subject peoples were.
To repeat my comment from Talk:Roman Empire, the "Culture" section is a mere hodgepodge: for instance, we move from slavery in one paragraph to a paragraph on the Campus Martius for no apparent reason. In the paragraph on Latin literature, no historian is named (no Tacitus or Suetonius), and the emphasis is on Vergil, who just barely qualifies as an Imperial writer (he was born under the Republic and died less than a decade after Octavian assumed the title Augustus). No description of Greek literature of the Roman Empire ( Plutarch, for one). Also, the section misses a fundamental distinction between the way the Romans thought of "the arts" and the way we do: people at even the highest ranks of society might practice literature (this was an aspect of elite education), whereas the performing arts and visual arts were mainly created by either free people of below-equestrian rank or by slaves. "Oratory" (characteristic of the Republic, as in Cicero) is confused with "rhetoric" (as in Quintilian); this should reflect the change from a republic in which citizens participated in politics through free speech and persuasion (oratory), to the subordination of the citizen to the emperor and the need to parse carefully what you say (rhetoric). No mention of imperial panegyric as a characteristic literary form distinguishing Imperial literature from Republican. There is one passing mention of "calendar with a leap year," but nothing about holidays and ludi (games) as they were celebrated in the Empire. The "Culture" section seems to deal with "ancient Rome" in general, not the specific culture of the Empire, as if nothing changed from 500 BC to 200 AD.
There's no paragraph on Roman law, even though this is one of the major "Legacy" contributions of ancient Rome. Roman roads are mentioned only in "Legacy." Aqueducts in Rome only are mentioned in one sentence, where one learns (or at least this was strange to me) that they had something to do with importing wine and oil; aqueducts in the provinces go unmentioned, even though the most famous examples are not in Italy, and we should certainly have a photo of the Pont du Gard or Aqueduct of Segovia in the article.
In the current version, the sections on Religion and Languages seem disproportionately long, without being sufficiently informative. The Languages section wanders into "Literature" and "Education," and makes claims in the last two paragraphs that require citations.
Ten times we are told that something is "important," often enough to indicate that the word is a non-informative stopgap for actually saying something.
A more conventional encyclopedic structure would go something like (the order might vary):
There are a number of capable editors who have contributed to Roman Empire, and pointing out that it doesn't meet GA standards at present in no way disparages their efforts. There are books and books written on the subject, and boiling it down to a readable, well-organized encyclopedia article that's useful for its most likely readers is an extremely difficult task. But the coverage gaps are significant. Cynwolfe ( talk) 12:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
A lot of work still going on. Do we have a rough timeframe for when it will be at GA standard? I think important articles like this deserve a bit longer to get fixed, but it has been a while. AIRcorn (talk) 09:22, 13 October 2012 (UTC)