The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Speedy delete under
CSD G4 (recreation of deleted material). While this specific category was never created before, the precedent of
this discussion should hold.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 10:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. 0-level category, which have all previously been deleted as not helping the encyclopedia. Empty except for a template.
VegaDark (
talk) 23:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Delete all It does not aid collaboration on the English edition of this site to know that someone doesn't speak a language (other than English.) —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 03:37, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:User frp-0
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Speedy delete under
CSD G4 (recreation of deleted material). While this specific category was never created before, the precedent of
this discussion should hold.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 10:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. 0-level category, which have all previously been deleted as not helping the encyclopedia.
VegaDark (
talk) 23:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:User Hani-0
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Speedy delete under
CSD G4 (recreation of deleted material). While this specific category was never created before, the precedent of
this discussion should hold.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 10:32, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. 0-level category, which have all previously been deleted as not helping the encyclopedia. Empty except for a template.
VegaDark (
talk) 23:26, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:User LdP-0
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Speedy delete under
CSD G4 (recreation of deleted material). While this specific category was never created before, the precedent of
this discussion should hold.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 10:34, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. 0-level category, which have all previously been deleted as not helping the encyclopedia. Empty except for a template.
VegaDark (
talk) 23:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Delete not useful bordering on vanity
Curb Chain (
talk) 02:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Category:Los Angeles Open (golf)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Delete. No reason for this category to exist, it's only entry is already in the parent category.
Tewapack (
talk) 21:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator-
William 23:07, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Foo Line (MBTA) stations in Bar
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Double upmerge.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 07:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. The number of stations is not so overwhelming, even for the Green Line, to require this level of subcategorization—
everyothermajorrapidtransitsystem is subcategorized by jurisdiction and/or service, but not both (and
a couplenot at all. In particular, the use of county subdivisions is less than ideal as the
county is not a meaningful level of government in most of southern New England.-
choster (
talk) 15:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Do not upmerge The result of this upmerge will result in 95 articles on stations directly in
Category:Railway stations in Boston, Massachusetts. When I saw this, I created the subcats by 'line' so that there would not be so many and so one could readily navigate stations by 'line'. I then extended the subcats out to the surrounding cities and counties. If there are this many stations in other cities with multiple 'lines', then such subcats should be created for them also. The point of categories is to help the reader easily find information, not to follow some undefinable 'trivial' rule.
Hmains (
talk) 03:38, 27 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think that 95 stations is too problematic. Notice, for example, that
Category:Railway stations by city has other categories ehich are over 100. I would draw the line at 200, sincwe that is what would go on a single page. And we have a
category scanning tool, which would allow users to find all this information even if the categories are merged as proposed.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 06:04, 27 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Regardless of numbers of stations in a city,
Category:Railway stations by city also shows the cities in which station sub-cats exist, organized by 'line' or operating company. Quite a few.
Hmains (
talk) 02:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I see categories for lines which are contained within a single city; as well as categories of systems. You could possibly make a case that there should be a category for the Boston Subway system, even possibly a separate category for the Green Line (which is trollies); I did propose there being categories for stations by line (which have since been created).
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 05:35, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
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Category:People murdered by Westies (criminal organization)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:delete (empty).--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 05:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: The gang is called The Westies and this article is a subcat of The Westies, so let's make things simpler and simply say People murdered by The Westies. RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive 15:21, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment. If renamed, I would say just rename to
Category:People murdered by the Westies (without the capital T on the), since the main article is just
Westies. Mind you,
Westie is a disambiguation page, which is probably why disambiguation has been added in this case. I'm neutral in this instance.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 20:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per the dab rationale. It's not about people murdered by
small dogs unfortunately. --
Northernhenge (
talk) 20:19, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:put it back. The promised speedy nominations never followed the
last discussion, so I'm putting it back to where it was. I've renamed
Further subcategorization can begin as desired.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 14:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It is terrible what was done to this category due to the renaming form Sports festivals by country to Multi-sport events by country. A multi-sport event is clearly a subcategory of sports festivals, but never all sports festivals are multi-sport events, see for instance
Category:Multi-sport events in the United States and
Category:Sports festivals in Germany. And see also the interwikis - here is needed Sports festivals by country as correct name.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Florentyna (
talk •
contribs) 13:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Ah, what is being proposed?
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes, renaming it back. And also all Multi-sport events in (country) categories back to Sports festivals in (country). Nevertheless the Multi-sport categories will be useful, too, as subcategory of Sports festivals by country. Means: First a bot supported substitution of all Multi-sport categories to Sports festivals must be done. The Multi-sport categories must not be deleted, they will be recreated as subcategories of Sports festivals. --
Florentyna (
talk) 20:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Keep and rename - by keeping the current tree, and recreating the old tree, and then someone will have to link the two together.
65.94.77.11 (
talk) 07:40, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Keep and create
Category:International sports competitions by country. This is a classic case of two arguments which do not conflict but are being presented as such. The term sports festivals is not clear (or certainly not clear enough for the blunt category structure). International sports competitions is analogous, significantly easier to understand, and matches the French mirror of
fr:Catégorie:Événement sportif international par pays. A multi-sport events category can happy co-exist as a sub-category of this. In my opinion, the sole question remaining is: do we rename the sports festival categories to " International sports competitions" ones and create multi-event sub-cats, or vice versa?
SFB 17:24, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
International would not be so good, because we will get problems with national multi-sports events (Chinese national games etc.)
Florentyna (
talk) 18:17, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Those articles need not go in the international category then, just the multi-sport event one. We can keep the two types as separate branches of
Category:Sports competitions.
SFB 17:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I would not do too much confusion in one step. Let's first recreate the former state of the art, then we need to sort in a proper way all the competitions into the correct branches (what will be already a lot of work). The "international" thing should be discussed later due to new confusions probably arising from that (what is a football match Spain-Netherlands?). At the moment the categories are really wrong. Let's at first create a correct tree.
Florentyna (
talk) 20:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Transportation reliability
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename. It's already been estaablished that except where ENGVAR indicates that American English should be used, we use the word "transport", not "transportation"..
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 12:48, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Category:Rotenburg (Wümme) district
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The result of the discussion was:merge.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 05:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
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1922 in Irish sport & 1923 in Irish sport
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The 21st century years in sport for Ireland are all
Category:2005 in Irish sports (sports with an s) so these years should be the same as the series by year for Ireland may eventually fill up between 1924 and 2002. Note though that there are more countries using sport (singular) eg
Category:2011 in Australian sport with only two using sports eg
Category:2011 in American sports. But all the years for a particular country should be uniform.
Hugo999 (
talk) 10:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Category:Soria Province
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:rename. We can speedily rename the entire tree to match the article format.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 06:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Per main. I'm putting this at CfD instead of speedy to ensure that there's consensus for renaming this entire scheme:
Category:Provinces of Spain. —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 05:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with Dalkey
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:rename.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 06:20, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: There are thousands of categories of the sort "People from X" rather than this naming scheme. —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 00:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Query What to do with
Bono? He's not from Dalkey but he currently lives there. Same is true for other famous residents.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 22:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Response If you live somewhere, you are from there. It's my understanding that "People from X" categories are intentionally broad, so that you can be born there or have resided there in order to "be from" there. —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 03:37, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
In fact, it's quite questionable whether merely being born somewhere makes a person be "from" there. Category discussions have always decided that place of birth is not of biographical importance but not defining.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 01:20, 27 October 2011 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Speedy delete under
CSD G4 (recreation of deleted material). While this specific category was never created before, the precedent of
this discussion should hold.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 10:28, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. 0-level category, which have all previously been deleted as not helping the encyclopedia. Empty except for a template.
VegaDark (
talk) 23:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Delete all It does not aid collaboration on the English edition of this site to know that someone doesn't speak a language (other than English.) —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 03:37, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Category:User frp-0
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Speedy delete under
CSD G4 (recreation of deleted material). While this specific category was never created before, the precedent of
this discussion should hold.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 10:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. 0-level category, which have all previously been deleted as not helping the encyclopedia.
VegaDark (
talk) 23:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:User Hani-0
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Speedy delete under
CSD G4 (recreation of deleted material). While this specific category was never created before, the precedent of
this discussion should hold.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 10:32, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. 0-level category, which have all previously been deleted as not helping the encyclopedia. Empty except for a template.
VegaDark (
talk) 23:26, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
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Category:User LdP-0
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Speedy delete under
CSD G4 (recreation of deleted material). While this specific category was never created before, the precedent of
this discussion should hold.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 10:34, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale:Delete. 0-level category, which have all previously been deleted as not helping the encyclopedia. Empty except for a template.
VegaDark (
talk) 23:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Delete not useful bordering on vanity
Curb Chain (
talk) 02:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Los Angeles Open (golf)
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Delete. No reason for this category to exist, it's only entry is already in the parent category.
Tewapack (
talk) 21:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Delete per nominator-
William 23:07, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Foo Line (MBTA) stations in Bar
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:Double upmerge.
Vegaswikian (
talk) 07:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Merge per nom. The number of stations is not so overwhelming, even for the Green Line, to require this level of subcategorization—
everyothermajorrapidtransitsystem is subcategorized by jurisdiction and/or service, but not both (and
a couplenot at all. In particular, the use of county subdivisions is less than ideal as the
county is not a meaningful level of government in most of southern New England.-
choster (
talk) 15:43, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Do not upmerge The result of this upmerge will result in 95 articles on stations directly in
Category:Railway stations in Boston, Massachusetts. When I saw this, I created the subcats by 'line' so that there would not be so many and so one could readily navigate stations by 'line'. I then extended the subcats out to the surrounding cities and counties. If there are this many stations in other cities with multiple 'lines', then such subcats should be created for them also. The point of categories is to help the reader easily find information, not to follow some undefinable 'trivial' rule.
Hmains (
talk) 03:38, 27 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I don't think that 95 stations is too problematic. Notice, for example, that
Category:Railway stations by city has other categories ehich are over 100. I would draw the line at 200, sincwe that is what would go on a single page. And we have a
category scanning tool, which would allow users to find all this information even if the categories are merged as proposed.
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 06:04, 27 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Regardless of numbers of stations in a city,
Category:Railway stations by city also shows the cities in which station sub-cats exist, organized by 'line' or operating company. Quite a few.
Hmains (
talk) 02:59, 28 October 2011 (UTC)reply
I see categories for lines which are contained within a single city; as well as categories of systems. You could possibly make a case that there should be a category for the Boston Subway system, even possibly a separate category for the Green Line (which is trollies); I did propose there being categories for stations by line (which have since been created).
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 05:35, 1 November 2011 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:People murdered by Westies (criminal organization)
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:delete (empty).--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 05:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: The gang is called The Westies and this article is a subcat of The Westies, so let's make things simpler and simply say People murdered by The Westies. RepublicanJacobiteTheFortyFive 15:21, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Comment. If renamed, I would say just rename to
Category:People murdered by the Westies (without the capital T on the), since the main article is just
Westies. Mind you,
Westie is a disambiguation page, which is probably why disambiguation has been added in this case. I'm neutral in this instance.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 20:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Oppose per the dab rationale. It's not about people murdered by
small dogs unfortunately. --
Northernhenge (
talk) 20:19, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:put it back. The promised speedy nominations never followed the
last discussion, so I'm putting it back to where it was. I've renamed
Further subcategorization can begin as desired.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 14:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
It is terrible what was done to this category due to the renaming form Sports festivals by country to Multi-sport events by country. A multi-sport event is clearly a subcategory of sports festivals, but never all sports festivals are multi-sport events, see for instance
Category:Multi-sport events in the United States and
Category:Sports festivals in Germany. And see also the interwikis - here is needed Sports festivals by country as correct name.— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Florentyna (
talk •
contribs) 13:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Ah, what is being proposed?
Vegaswikian (
talk) 19:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes, renaming it back. And also all Multi-sport events in (country) categories back to Sports festivals in (country). Nevertheless the Multi-sport categories will be useful, too, as subcategory of Sports festivals by country. Means: First a bot supported substitution of all Multi-sport categories to Sports festivals must be done. The Multi-sport categories must not be deleted, they will be recreated as subcategories of Sports festivals. --
Florentyna (
talk) 20:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Keep and rename - by keeping the current tree, and recreating the old tree, and then someone will have to link the two together.
65.94.77.11 (
talk) 07:40, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Keep and create
Category:International sports competitions by country. This is a classic case of two arguments which do not conflict but are being presented as such. The term sports festivals is not clear (or certainly not clear enough for the blunt category structure). International sports competitions is analogous, significantly easier to understand, and matches the French mirror of
fr:Catégorie:Événement sportif international par pays. A multi-sport events category can happy co-exist as a sub-category of this. In my opinion, the sole question remaining is: do we rename the sports festival categories to " International sports competitions" ones and create multi-event sub-cats, or vice versa?
SFB 17:24, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
International would not be so good, because we will get problems with national multi-sports events (Chinese national games etc.)
Florentyna (
talk) 18:17, 6 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Those articles need not go in the international category then, just the multi-sport event one. We can keep the two types as separate branches of
Category:Sports competitions.
SFB 17:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)reply
I would not do too much confusion in one step. Let's first recreate the former state of the art, then we need to sort in a proper way all the competitions into the correct branches (what will be already a lot of work). The "international" thing should be discussed later due to new confusions probably arising from that (what is a football match Spain-Netherlands?). At the moment the categories are really wrong. Let's at first create a correct tree.
Florentyna (
talk) 20:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)reply
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Transportation reliability
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Nominator's rationale:Rename. It's already been estaablished that except where ENGVAR indicates that American English should be used, we use the word "transport", not "transportation"..
עוד מישהוOd Mishehu 12:48, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Category:Rotenburg (Wümme) district
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deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was:merge.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 05:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
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1922 in Irish sport & 1923 in Irish sport
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The 21st century years in sport for Ireland are all
Category:2005 in Irish sports (sports with an s) so these years should be the same as the series by year for Ireland may eventually fill up between 1924 and 2002. Note though that there are more countries using sport (singular) eg
Category:2011 in Australian sport with only two using sports eg
Category:2011 in American sports. But all the years for a particular country should be uniform.
Hugo999 (
talk) 10:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Category:Soria Province
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The result of the discussion was:rename. We can speedily rename the entire tree to match the article format.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 06:19, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: Per main. I'm putting this at CfD instead of speedy to ensure that there's consensus for renaming this entire scheme:
Category:Provinces of Spain. —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 05:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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Category:People associated with Dalkey
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The result of the discussion was:rename.--
Mike Selinker (
talk) 06:20, 2 November 2011 (UTC)reply
Nominator's rationale: There are thousands of categories of the sort "People from X" rather than this naming scheme. —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 00:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Query What to do with
Bono? He's not from Dalkey but he currently lives there. Same is true for other famous residents.
Laurel Lodged (
talk) 22:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)reply
Response If you live somewhere, you are from there. It's my understanding that "People from X" categories are intentionally broad, so that you can be born there or have resided there in order to "be from" there. —
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯ 03:37, 26 October 2011 (UTC)reply
In fact, it's quite questionable whether merely being born somewhere makes a person be "from" there. Category discussions have always decided that place of birth is not of biographical importance but not defining.
Good Ol’factory(talk) 01:20, 27 October 2011 (UTC)reply
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