- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Regardless of whether it's a hoax or not, we're lacking in reliable source coverage. Star Mississippi 17:37, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Talkan and Curcan massacres
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- Talkan and Curcan massacres ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Sourcing and tone leave a lot to be desired. A few of the sources seem to be unreliable fringe publications, others are inaccessible. With an alleged death toll of over 100k, I'm finding it hard to pull up any reliable academic sourcing that would even establish the existence of the massacres. Mooonswimmer 15:09, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- Speedy Delete. I couldn’t find any reliable source in google books or any recognizable academic institution or publisher showing anything as “Talkan and Curcan massacres”. Almost all the cited sources are inaccessible, unreliable or unrecognizable sources, quotes like quoting al-hajaj saying “he is an enemy to muslims, kill him without any mercy” can’t be found in any accessible reliable source or anywhere in general, it seems that the page is made for nationalistic and/or propagandistic purpose and have nothing to do with history and meets wp:HOAX criteria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chafique ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, History, Islam, and Central Asia. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 16:12, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- It's not a hoax. The place is
Taloqan (also spelled Talaqan). You can read al-Tabari's account
here. These events took on great significance in Kemalist historiography, so I'm sure there some unreliable stuff out there. However, it is not a hoax.
Srnec (
talk) 20:14, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- First of all,
al-Tabari isn’t a reliable source per
WP:RS. Second of all it’s not al-Tabari reporting here, he is mentioning a report by an anonymous source (note also that the word “massacre” is never used and there is no mention for Curcan). Finally there is no single academic or any
reliable historical secondary source mentioning anything about a such massacre or incident, whether some kemalist politicians or propaganda promote hoax or not for political reasons it’s not relevant here.
Chafique (
talk) 22:19, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- The footnote in al-Tabari refers to Gibb, which is freely available online. For a brief survey of the contradictory traditions mentioned by Gibb, see Andrew Marsham, "Public Execution in the Umayyad Period: Early Islamic Punitive Practice and its Late Antique Context," Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies 11 (2011): 101–136, at 131 (also available freely online). It isn't a hoax and that is not a valid grounds for deletion. For a Kemalist textbook treatment, see Başar Ari, "Religion and Nation-building in the Turkish Republic: Comparison of High School History Textbooks of 1931–41 and of 1942–50," Turkish Studies 14.2 (2013): 372–393 (quoted at 380).
Srnec (
talk) 01:24, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
The footnote in al-Tabari refers to Gibb
. again, you are missing the main point, Al-Tabari himself is not a reliable source and a wikipedia article can’t be established based on his writings per WP:RS. You need a reliable secondary source to establish the topic’s notability and prove it’s existence (check WP:PST).- just a side question relatively unrelated to the discussion, can you tell us who is Gibb ?
For a Kemalist textbook treatment, see Başar Ari, "Religion and Nation-building in the Turkish Republic: Comparison of High School History Textbooks of 1931–41 and of 1942–50,"
Now regarding kemalist political propagada textbooks, they are not reliable sources neither, they are heavily criticized by A LOT of academic and reliable sources for genocide denial and promoting propaganda and poor to no reputation for facts checking facts or with editorial oversight, there is an entire wikipedia article with tons of sources called Turkish textbook controversies, they are not reliable sources per WP:QUESTIONED. Aside from that, can you send us the quote from that source where the author (himself) says “talqan massacre” or “talqan people were massacred” or mention anything about curcan ?, because I can’t find it."Public Execution in the Umayyad Period: Early Islamic Punitive Practice and its Late Antique Context," Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies 11 (2011): 101–136, at 131 (also available freely online).
no mention for a massacre nor for anything about curcan. Chafique ( talk) 18:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- The footnote in al-Tabari refers to Gibb, which is freely available online. For a brief survey of the contradictory traditions mentioned by Gibb, see Andrew Marsham, "Public Execution in the Umayyad Period: Early Islamic Punitive Practice and its Late Antique Context," Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies 11 (2011): 101–136, at 131 (also available freely online). It isn't a hoax and that is not a valid grounds for deletion. For a Kemalist textbook treatment, see Başar Ari, "Religion and Nation-building in the Turkish Republic: Comparison of High School History Textbooks of 1931–41 and of 1942–50," Turkish Studies 14.2 (2013): 372–393 (quoted at 380).
Srnec (
talk) 01:24, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- First of all,
al-Tabari isn’t a reliable source per
WP:RS. Second of all it’s not al-Tabari reporting here, he is mentioning a report by an anonymous source (note also that the word “massacre” is never used and there is no mention for Curcan). Finally there is no single academic or any
reliable historical secondary source mentioning anything about a such massacre or incident, whether some kemalist politicians or propaganda promote hoax or not for political reasons it’s not relevant here.
Chafique (
talk) 22:19, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Regardless of whether it's a hoax or not, we're lacking in reliable source coverage. Star Mississippi 17:37, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Talkan and Curcan massacres
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Talkan and Curcan massacres ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Sourcing and tone leave a lot to be desired. A few of the sources seem to be unreliable fringe publications, others are inaccessible. With an alleged death toll of over 100k, I'm finding it hard to pull up any reliable academic sourcing that would even establish the existence of the massacres. Mooonswimmer 15:09, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- Speedy Delete. I couldn’t find any reliable source in google books or any recognizable academic institution or publisher showing anything as “Talkan and Curcan massacres”. Almost all the cited sources are inaccessible, unreliable or unrecognizable sources, quotes like quoting al-hajaj saying “he is an enemy to muslims, kill him without any mercy” can’t be found in any accessible reliable source or anywhere in general, it seems that the page is made for nationalistic and/or propagandistic purpose and have nothing to do with history and meets wp:HOAX criteria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chafique ( talk • contribs) 15:25, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, History, Islam, and Central Asia. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 16:12, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
- It's not a hoax. The place is
Taloqan (also spelled Talaqan). You can read al-Tabari's account
here. These events took on great significance in Kemalist historiography, so I'm sure there some unreliable stuff out there. However, it is not a hoax.
Srnec (
talk) 20:14, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- First of all,
al-Tabari isn’t a reliable source per
WP:RS. Second of all it’s not al-Tabari reporting here, he is mentioning a report by an anonymous source (note also that the word “massacre” is never used and there is no mention for Curcan). Finally there is no single academic or any
reliable historical secondary source mentioning anything about a such massacre or incident, whether some kemalist politicians or propaganda promote hoax or not for political reasons it’s not relevant here.
Chafique (
talk) 22:19, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- The footnote in al-Tabari refers to Gibb, which is freely available online. For a brief survey of the contradictory traditions mentioned by Gibb, see Andrew Marsham, "Public Execution in the Umayyad Period: Early Islamic Punitive Practice and its Late Antique Context," Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies 11 (2011): 101–136, at 131 (also available freely online). It isn't a hoax and that is not a valid grounds for deletion. For a Kemalist textbook treatment, see Başar Ari, "Religion and Nation-building in the Turkish Republic: Comparison of High School History Textbooks of 1931–41 and of 1942–50," Turkish Studies 14.2 (2013): 372–393 (quoted at 380).
Srnec (
talk) 01:24, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
The footnote in al-Tabari refers to Gibb
. again, you are missing the main point, Al-Tabari himself is not a reliable source and a wikipedia article can’t be established based on his writings per WP:RS. You need a reliable secondary source to establish the topic’s notability and prove it’s existence (check WP:PST).- just a side question relatively unrelated to the discussion, can you tell us who is Gibb ?
For a Kemalist textbook treatment, see Başar Ari, "Religion and Nation-building in the Turkish Republic: Comparison of High School History Textbooks of 1931–41 and of 1942–50,"
Now regarding kemalist political propagada textbooks, they are not reliable sources neither, they are heavily criticized by A LOT of academic and reliable sources for genocide denial and promoting propaganda and poor to no reputation for facts checking facts or with editorial oversight, there is an entire wikipedia article with tons of sources called Turkish textbook controversies, they are not reliable sources per WP:QUESTIONED. Aside from that, can you send us the quote from that source where the author (himself) says “talqan massacre” or “talqan people were massacred” or mention anything about curcan ?, because I can’t find it."Public Execution in the Umayyad Period: Early Islamic Punitive Practice and its Late Antique Context," Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies 11 (2011): 101–136, at 131 (also available freely online).
no mention for a massacre nor for anything about curcan. Chafique ( talk) 18:44, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- The footnote in al-Tabari refers to Gibb, which is freely available online. For a brief survey of the contradictory traditions mentioned by Gibb, see Andrew Marsham, "Public Execution in the Umayyad Period: Early Islamic Punitive Practice and its Late Antique Context," Journal of Arabic and Islamic Studies 11 (2011): 101–136, at 131 (also available freely online). It isn't a hoax and that is not a valid grounds for deletion. For a Kemalist textbook treatment, see Başar Ari, "Religion and Nation-building in the Turkish Republic: Comparison of High School History Textbooks of 1931–41 and of 1942–50," Turkish Studies 14.2 (2013): 372–393 (quoted at 380).
Srnec (
talk) 01:24, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- First of all,
al-Tabari isn’t a reliable source per
WP:RS. Second of all it’s not al-Tabari reporting here, he is mentioning a report by an anonymous source (note also that the word “massacre” is never used and there is no mention for Curcan). Finally there is no single academic or any
reliable historical secondary source mentioning anything about a such massacre or incident, whether some kemalist politicians or propaganda promote hoax or not for political reasons it’s not relevant here.
Chafique (
talk) 22:19, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.