- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Consensus is that the history of planet numbering should be explained in an article, not via disambiguation pages. But I can't delete First planet (disambiguation) and all the others via this AfD, because they have not been tagged for deletion. They will need to be nominated separately. Sandstein 18:12, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Second planet (disambiguation)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Second planet (disambiguation) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Useless
WP:TWODABS; per
Praemonitus (who reverted me when I added a hatnote at the primary topic pointing to the other topic), Nobody is going to confuse Venus with an archaic model
. Note there was a previous mass AfD including this page at
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/First planet in 2012, which closed as no consensus
* Pppery *
it has begun... 16:39, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 16:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- On purely technical grounds, without checking what else is named "second planet", this is a sort-of primary topic disambiguation, with the main "second planet" being venus and the subordinate "second planet" being mercury (planet) and could be dealt with using headnotes. There is a case against the reversion, although that list and the several other 2-entry articles are just crying out for a navbox in a template instead of all of these wordy lists across multiple articles:
- Delete all except 5, 9, and 10 as useless
WP:OR bullcrap. As for the entries that are not planets, dwarf planets, or asteroids: But please tag the other pages first. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 02:47, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- The song listed at Third planet and the Zooniverse program listed at Fourth planet (disambiguation) can be handled via a hatnote from Earth and Mars, respectively.
- Fifth planet (disambiguation) has valid uses related to a hypothetical planet that used to be between Mars and Jupiter.
- The other entry on Seventh planet (disambiguation), which goes to Five-planet Nice model, makes no sense.
- Pluto, Planet Nine, and Planet 9 (record label) can be listed at Ninth planet (disambiguation).
- Tenth planet (disambiguation) has several valid entries, though I'd drop all the items that are specific astronomical objects.
- At Twelfth planet (disambiguation), the book does not have its own article and can be handled as a hatnote from 12th Planet (musician).
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Astronomy-related deletion discussions. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 02:48, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- @
Uncle G: Please reformat your pseudo-navbox as a list of only the disambiguation pages, using {{
la}}. It's confusing and causes an extra indent on everything after it. Also, if all the dab pages are to be handled in this AfD, they should be AfD tagged. –
LaundryPizza03 (
d
c̄) 02:51, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- It's not a pseudo navbox. It is a navbox. Uncle G ( talk) 10:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Let's not bundle these when the exact reason the previous discussion in 2012 failed was overbundling. Also note that
First planet and
Third planet are at the base title so should be redirected to
Mercury (planet) and
Earth respectively rather than deleted, and I boldly redirected
Eleventh planet (which was previously an article discussing planet observations) to
Planets beyond Neptune before starting discussion.
* Pppery *
it has begun... 03:26, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. I wasn't suggesting that we delete the others. But Special:Permalink/1061374889 says to me that we've lost something with that redirect. I cannot find anywhere else where Wikipedia had that content, not even planet#history. Uncle G ( talk) 10:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Philosophically I can argue that the hatnote violated WP:HATNOTERULES number 3: Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind. The likelihood of somebody looking for "second planet" in the context of the Ptolemaic system and then confusing it with Mars is astronomically small. Praemonitus ( talk) 03:31, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- The way that I see it is this:
- There are three immediately largely useless disambiguation articles that have very little prose content, no useful edit history, and nothing to disambiguate except planets by number: Second planet (disambiguation), Fourth planet (disambiguation), Sixth planet (disambiguation). Their primary topics rightly point to the current heliocentric model numbers, and most of their space is taken up by cumbersome "See also" lists.
- There is one article where we have lost stuff: eleventh planet. I initially thought about reclaiming that and building upon it, as Lists of planets#In the Solar system does not have the numberings as they have evolved over time. But planet#history has a superficial discussion of the topic that could do with a little more depth, depth that Definition of planet#Minor planets has, for example.
- I don't think that this current system serves readers well. Yes, until 1845 the fifth planet (disambiguation) was Ceres. But explaining this to readers in the form of a maze of cross-linked disambiguation pages seems a poor choice. The reader looking for something other than the main topics for the second, fourth, and sixth planets are best off landing directly at planet#history, I think. But I think that that means headnotes or some other indication in venus where to go to find what else, historically, has been the second planet. Similarly for Mars and Saturn. The other numbers, with hypothetical planets and whatnot, are bridges we can cross when we come to them; and it doesn't take the deletion tool to clean up those terrible "See also" sections. Again, the best option may be that for anything other than the hypotheticals and outright non-planets, we direct readers who want the other numbering systems straight to planet#history where there are numbered tables — no navbox, and no massive "See also" lists. Uncle G ( talk) 10:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. If " Second planet" is ambiguous then a hatnote will suffice. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 19:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per
Wikipedia:Disambiguation and
Wikipedia:Disambiguations are cheap. It's a reasonable disambiguation page, and it's a more efficient use of resources per
Wikipedia:Disambiguations are cheap. It's more costly to delete the article and have extra records (deleted pages are never really deleted; see
Wikipedia:Redirects are cheap) maintained on wikipedia's servers. It's not hurting anything leaving things as they are.
4meter4 (
talk) 18:57, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Per
Wikipedia:Disambiguations are cheap#When to include a disambiguation page, that essay explicitly does not apply to twodabs cases. Any the rest of your comment is a complete non-argument (see
WP:PERF).
* Pppery *
it has begun... 19:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Incorrect. It says a dab page is appropriate when "Two or more topics that might otherwise bear the same title, when there is no primary topic." I would argue we have no primary topic, and therefore a dab page is appropriate in this case. Best.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:00, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- There is a primary topic; second planet (correctly IMO) redirects to Venus and has since 2010. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Incorrect. It says a dab page is appropriate when "Two or more topics that might otherwise bear the same title, when there is no primary topic." I would argue we have no primary topic, and therefore a dab page is appropriate in this case. Best.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:00, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Per
Wikipedia:Disambiguations are cheap#When to include a disambiguation page, that essay explicitly does not apply to twodabs cases. Any the rest of your comment is a complete non-argument (see
WP:PERF).
* Pppery *
it has begun... 19:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to generate a clearer consensus about each of the "foo number planet (disambiguation)" pages. BD2412 T
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BD2412 T 04:54, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- I am wondering if there is some scheme by which these can all be merged into a single index-type page, with hatnote referring to sections on that page.
BD2412
T 04:55, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well we already have planet#history that has several tables with the different numberings, plus the (approximate) dates when they applied (e.g. until asteroids stopped being recognized as major planets), the details of which I hope Pppery will pull out of eleventh planet that xe blanked and add to planet#history. I did initially think of a common navbox, but as above (having thought through how many rows the navbox would have to have) I came around to the view that planet#history is where readers should land if they don't want the second planet primary topic, and not second planet (disambiguation). The same for fourth planet (disambiguation) and sixth planet (disambiguation), which are exactly the same case as here with just two things to disambiguate and they are both planets by number. The other numbers we can handle separately, as and when. They aren't parallel cases, and bundling them was a mistake last time at AFD. These three are the same, and count me as having come around to agreement with Shhhnotsoloud, although I'd be easy going with redirecting these three disambiguations. Uncle G ( talk) 10:44, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete, it doesn't make sense, just makes things more ambiguous. Artem.G ( talk) 09:58, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete the lot. Only exists to placate some daft and no longer used numbering system. Even if it did exist, it should be at second planet, which currently and reasonably links to Venus. "Second planet" is not a search term that anyone looking for Mercury would enter. Stifle ( talk) 10:06, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Consensus is that the history of planet numbering should be explained in an article, not via disambiguation pages. But I can't delete First planet (disambiguation) and all the others via this AfD, because they have not been tagged for deletion. They will need to be nominated separately. Sandstein 18:12, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Second planet (disambiguation)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Second planet (disambiguation) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Useless
WP:TWODABS; per
Praemonitus (who reverted me when I added a hatnote at the primary topic pointing to the other topic), Nobody is going to confuse Venus with an archaic model
. Note there was a previous mass AfD including this page at
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/First planet in 2012, which closed as no consensus
* Pppery *
it has begun... 16:39, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 16:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- On purely technical grounds, without checking what else is named "second planet", this is a sort-of primary topic disambiguation, with the main "second planet" being venus and the subordinate "second planet" being mercury (planet) and could be dealt with using headnotes. There is a case against the reversion, although that list and the several other 2-entry articles are just crying out for a navbox in a template instead of all of these wordy lists across multiple articles:
- Delete all except 5, 9, and 10 as useless
WP:OR bullcrap. As for the entries that are not planets, dwarf planets, or asteroids: But please tag the other pages first. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 02:47, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- The song listed at Third planet and the Zooniverse program listed at Fourth planet (disambiguation) can be handled via a hatnote from Earth and Mars, respectively.
- Fifth planet (disambiguation) has valid uses related to a hypothetical planet that used to be between Mars and Jupiter.
- The other entry on Seventh planet (disambiguation), which goes to Five-planet Nice model, makes no sense.
- Pluto, Planet Nine, and Planet 9 (record label) can be listed at Ninth planet (disambiguation).
- Tenth planet (disambiguation) has several valid entries, though I'd drop all the items that are specific astronomical objects.
- At Twelfth planet (disambiguation), the book does not have its own article and can be handled as a hatnote from 12th Planet (musician).
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Astronomy-related deletion discussions. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 02:48, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- @
Uncle G: Please reformat your pseudo-navbox as a list of only the disambiguation pages, using {{
la}}. It's confusing and causes an extra indent on everything after it. Also, if all the dab pages are to be handled in this AfD, they should be AfD tagged. –
LaundryPizza03 (
d
c̄) 02:51, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- It's not a pseudo navbox. It is a navbox. Uncle G ( talk) 10:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Let's not bundle these when the exact reason the previous discussion in 2012 failed was overbundling. Also note that
First planet and
Third planet are at the base title so should be redirected to
Mercury (planet) and
Earth respectively rather than deleted, and I boldly redirected
Eleventh planet (which was previously an article discussing planet observations) to
Planets beyond Neptune before starting discussion.
* Pppery *
it has begun... 03:26, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yes. I wasn't suggesting that we delete the others. But Special:Permalink/1061374889 says to me that we've lost something with that redirect. I cannot find anywhere else where Wikipedia had that content, not even planet#history. Uncle G ( talk) 10:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Philosophically I can argue that the hatnote violated WP:HATNOTERULES number 3: Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind. The likelihood of somebody looking for "second planet" in the context of the Ptolemaic system and then confusing it with Mars is astronomically small. Praemonitus ( talk) 03:31, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- The way that I see it is this:
- There are three immediately largely useless disambiguation articles that have very little prose content, no useful edit history, and nothing to disambiguate except planets by number: Second planet (disambiguation), Fourth planet (disambiguation), Sixth planet (disambiguation). Their primary topics rightly point to the current heliocentric model numbers, and most of their space is taken up by cumbersome "See also" lists.
- There is one article where we have lost stuff: eleventh planet. I initially thought about reclaiming that and building upon it, as Lists of planets#In the Solar system does not have the numberings as they have evolved over time. But planet#history has a superficial discussion of the topic that could do with a little more depth, depth that Definition of planet#Minor planets has, for example.
- I don't think that this current system serves readers well. Yes, until 1845 the fifth planet (disambiguation) was Ceres. But explaining this to readers in the form of a maze of cross-linked disambiguation pages seems a poor choice. The reader looking for something other than the main topics for the second, fourth, and sixth planets are best off landing directly at planet#history, I think. But I think that that means headnotes or some other indication in venus where to go to find what else, historically, has been the second planet. Similarly for Mars and Saturn. The other numbers, with hypothetical planets and whatnot, are bridges we can cross when we come to them; and it doesn't take the deletion tool to clean up those terrible "See also" sections. Again, the best option may be that for anything other than the hypotheticals and outright non-planets, we direct readers who want the other numbering systems straight to planet#history where there are numbered tables — no navbox, and no massive "See also" lists. Uncle G ( talk) 10:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. If " Second planet" is ambiguous then a hatnote will suffice. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 19:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per
Wikipedia:Disambiguation and
Wikipedia:Disambiguations are cheap. It's a reasonable disambiguation page, and it's a more efficient use of resources per
Wikipedia:Disambiguations are cheap. It's more costly to delete the article and have extra records (deleted pages are never really deleted; see
Wikipedia:Redirects are cheap) maintained on wikipedia's servers. It's not hurting anything leaving things as they are.
4meter4 (
talk) 18:57, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Per
Wikipedia:Disambiguations are cheap#When to include a disambiguation page, that essay explicitly does not apply to twodabs cases. Any the rest of your comment is a complete non-argument (see
WP:PERF).
* Pppery *
it has begun... 19:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Incorrect. It says a dab page is appropriate when "Two or more topics that might otherwise bear the same title, when there is no primary topic." I would argue we have no primary topic, and therefore a dab page is appropriate in this case. Best.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:00, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- There is a primary topic; second planet (correctly IMO) redirects to Venus and has since 2010. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Incorrect. It says a dab page is appropriate when "Two or more topics that might otherwise bear the same title, when there is no primary topic." I would argue we have no primary topic, and therefore a dab page is appropriate in this case. Best.
4meter4 (
talk) 16:00, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Per
Wikipedia:Disambiguations are cheap#When to include a disambiguation page, that essay explicitly does not apply to twodabs cases. Any the rest of your comment is a complete non-argument (see
WP:PERF).
* Pppery *
it has begun... 19:44, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to generate a clearer consensus about each of the "foo number planet (disambiguation)" pages. BD2412 T
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BD2412 T 04:54, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- I am wondering if there is some scheme by which these can all be merged into a single index-type page, with hatnote referring to sections on that page.
BD2412
T 04:55, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well we already have planet#history that has several tables with the different numberings, plus the (approximate) dates when they applied (e.g. until asteroids stopped being recognized as major planets), the details of which I hope Pppery will pull out of eleventh planet that xe blanked and add to planet#history. I did initially think of a common navbox, but as above (having thought through how many rows the navbox would have to have) I came around to the view that planet#history is where readers should land if they don't want the second planet primary topic, and not second planet (disambiguation). The same for fourth planet (disambiguation) and sixth planet (disambiguation), which are exactly the same case as here with just two things to disambiguate and they are both planets by number. The other numbers we can handle separately, as and when. They aren't parallel cases, and bundling them was a mistake last time at AFD. These three are the same, and count me as having come around to agreement with Shhhnotsoloud, although I'd be easy going with redirecting these three disambiguations. Uncle G ( talk) 10:44, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete, it doesn't make sense, just makes things more ambiguous. Artem.G ( talk) 09:58, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Delete the lot. Only exists to placate some daft and no longer used numbering system. Even if it did exist, it should be at second planet, which currently and reasonably links to Venus. "Second planet" is not a search term that anyone looking for Mercury would enter. Stifle ( talk) 10:06, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.