- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 02:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Marie-Elisabeth von Humboldt
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- Marie-Elisabeth von Humboldt ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Notability only through her sons, and WP:NOTINHERITED. Present on 2 other projects, but they are entitled to make different decision. There is some evidence of being a benefactor (supporting the local parish), but that itself was inherited. The pages of Wilhelm and Alexander seem sufficiently well-developed that a merge wouldn't be helpful. Klbrain ( talk) 18:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, what to answer? The page poses a problem for the person's notoriety. But, from the perspective of diversity in Wikipedia, I find it interesting to have the perspective of female personalities. In general, the existence of biographical writings is used to determine whether or not an article is admissible. Here, it was the subject of an article in a book, but in the 19th. From a diversity perspective, I find this article important. In itself, it does not bother people who are not interested in the subject. And people who are interested will learn something there. The article is neither a subject of contention nor a subject of controversy, it is not about a recent person, nor of self-promotion. Where is the problem ? She hasn't done enough work to have the right to appear in an encyclopedia?History of women is important itself, simple conclusion. And in the 18th, be a mother was a job. There are 5 or 6 pages linked to this page.
Marion (
talk) 18:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I must add something : german page exist first. Then, I translated the page from german to french. Then I decided to give an emphasis the this article, by making a translation to english. So, in french, when I created the article, nothing was told about it. In german, I dont know as the article exist previously.
Marion (
talk) 19:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- And I also want to add an argument : in wikipédia, there are more men biographies than women (statistics). And, when I read them, as I am for a long time a wikipedia reader, I noticed we often read that men "became" something, someone, an artist, a politician etc. by their own. But, here is also a part of feminist ideas, I find important to explain people grew up in an environnement. In social sciences, we used to consider the environnement as much as the person. So this page has also this aim, to remain in the 18th, people could became scientist when women were activ in the education. Because there were no schools. And because, men, with letterature wont organize themselves for children. Women did the link for that, they were central. So : I find Marie-Elisabeth has a full place in wikipedia by her own. For the reason why, research in that field progress (role of women in the Royalties times) in social sciences and this article can be developped in the future. We are more in a time where we find informations about women than in a time where we consider women are part of their husband life or "only mother". Be a mother is something, women who read wikipedia, can find as as much important than being politician. Because, there are so many ways to be mother than to be politician. And not all women dream to be politcian or artist or scientist. So my hypothesis, is, that more women would read wikipedia if there are more diversities in biographies as well. But of course, it is an hypothesis made because I studied social scientist, I used to consider feminists ideas. And in France there is wikipedia project quite activ, but I am not part of it directly, I follow it from far, it is called "the without pages" (les sans pages) where people create biographies of forgotten women.
Marion (
talk) 06:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- And to conclude : I really don't appreciate the method. I am very strict on that way even when I contribute in french wikipedia (my main activity anyway). When something hurt someone but, when that problem dont bring a real deficcience to the full project of wikipedia, a simple discussion inside the article page of discussion, would be enough to start a debate. Always bring deleting process to start a discussion is an abuse. If we do that, wikipedia dont increase, but decrease, more quickly than social sciences increase. So do whatever you want, I dont appreciate the way. Marion ( talk) 06:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- And I also want to add an argument : in wikipédia, there are more men biographies than women (statistics). And, when I read them, as I am for a long time a wikipedia reader, I noticed we often read that men "became" something, someone, an artist, a politician etc. by their own. But, here is also a part of feminist ideas, I find important to explain people grew up in an environnement. In social sciences, we used to consider the environnement as much as the person. So this page has also this aim, to remain in the 18th, people could became scientist when women were activ in the education. Because there were no schools. And because, men, with letterature wont organize themselves for children. Women did the link for that, they were central. So : I find Marie-Elisabeth has a full place in wikipedia by her own. For the reason why, research in that field progress (role of women in the Royalties times) in social sciences and this article can be developped in the future. We are more in a time where we find informations about women than in a time where we consider women are part of their husband life or "only mother". Be a mother is something, women who read wikipedia, can find as as much important than being politician. Because, there are so many ways to be mother than to be politician. And not all women dream to be politcian or artist or scientist. So my hypothesis, is, that more women would read wikipedia if there are more diversities in biographies as well. But of course, it is an hypothesis made because I studied social scientist, I used to consider feminists ideas. And in France there is wikipedia project quite activ, but I am not part of it directly, I follow it from far, it is called "the without pages" (les sans pages) where people create biographies of forgotten women.
Marion (
talk) 06:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- I must add something : german page exist first. Then, I translated the page from german to french. Then I decided to give an emphasis the this article, by making a translation to english. So, in french, when I created the article, nothing was told about it. In german, I dont know as the article exist previously.
Marion (
talk) 19:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete unless it can be expanded to say more about the subject. Nearly everything in the article currently is not about her - it is about her family, her husbands, and what happened with her bequest after she died. Marion Leconte, I take your point, but the Notability rules are the same for men and women - the question is whether there is enough material about her (not the people around her, but her) to support an article. At the moment it isn't there, but I will be happy to change my view if extra relevant material can be added.-- Gronk Oz ( talk) 09:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women and Germany. Shellwood ( talk) 18:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep for historical reasons. The article is richly sourced and explains her family relationships, her strong interest in the education of her sons, and the significant position she inherited.-- Ipigott ( talk) 10:41, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep as owner of the Falkenberg estate which she remodeled heavily. Axisstroke ( talk) 15:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 18:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- As I proposed, maintaining my delete position. Regarding the Falkenberg estate, the expansion there can readily be described on the
Falkenberg (Berlin) page (which is what is done over on .de). If family relationships are seen as important, these should should sit on the articles of one of the sons (or, indeed, why not for one of the husbands).
Klbrain (
talk) 14:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- I maintain my arguments. I understand the point of view for deleting this article. But, in the reason of diversity, we need to accept, motherhood and planning education of children is important as much as people who organised wars, planned destructions or else. No place for her in her husband pages : they don't exist (if I dont mistake). Marion ( talk) 18:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- The importance of the motherhood and fatherhood and planning the educations is undisputable, but this isn't a good case study of any of these. The source that support Marie's maternal care for her children is a 19th century hagiography "The mothers of great men and women ...". The other key sources, Minguet (1969) has a quite different view (automated translation of
paragraph 19 of 'Première période')
Marie Elisabeth von Humboldt, was a haughty, cold woman who had little emotional relationship with her children. After the disappearance of her husband, who was a "...man of pleasant trade, of lively and cheerful conversation"... it is on the contrary, "... an atmosphere of compassed formalism and boredom created around her Madame de Humboldt mother".
Klbrain ( talk) 23:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)- Ok, this is a personnal point of view (yours). But people spoke about her, she has a public notoriety and there is a picture in common, a category in common, an article in german, and 6 english spoken articles who mention her name. Wikipedia speaks about people who have been previously subject of books or studies, which is her case. Mothers, good in education, are not always warmfull. Education of today, principle of "love" (children's care) was not main stream at that time, I could add studies about that topic int this article, if the problem points there. Marion ( talk) 06:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- The importance of the motherhood and fatherhood and planning the educations is undisputable, but this isn't a good case study of any of these. The source that support Marie's maternal care for her children is a 19th century hagiography "The mothers of great men and women ...". The other key sources, Minguet (1969) has a quite different view (automated translation of
paragraph 19 of 'Première période')
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The sourcing is sufficient to make Marie-Elisabeth independently notable from her sons, especially when taking German sources into account. Cortador ( talk) 22:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. There are plenty of precedents of parents deeply and actively involved in their children's' education and starting their careers - call it the well accepted Mama Rose exception. Bearian ( talk) 16:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 02:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Marie-Elisabeth von Humboldt
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Marie-Elisabeth von Humboldt ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Notability only through her sons, and WP:NOTINHERITED. Present on 2 other projects, but they are entitled to make different decision. There is some evidence of being a benefactor (supporting the local parish), but that itself was inherited. The pages of Wilhelm and Alexander seem sufficiently well-developed that a merge wouldn't be helpful. Klbrain ( talk) 18:02, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Hello, what to answer? The page poses a problem for the person's notoriety. But, from the perspective of diversity in Wikipedia, I find it interesting to have the perspective of female personalities. In general, the existence of biographical writings is used to determine whether or not an article is admissible. Here, it was the subject of an article in a book, but in the 19th. From a diversity perspective, I find this article important. In itself, it does not bother people who are not interested in the subject. And people who are interested will learn something there. The article is neither a subject of contention nor a subject of controversy, it is not about a recent person, nor of self-promotion. Where is the problem ? She hasn't done enough work to have the right to appear in an encyclopedia?History of women is important itself, simple conclusion. And in the 18th, be a mother was a job. There are 5 or 6 pages linked to this page.
Marion (
talk) 18:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I must add something : german page exist first. Then, I translated the page from german to french. Then I decided to give an emphasis the this article, by making a translation to english. So, in french, when I created the article, nothing was told about it. In german, I dont know as the article exist previously.
Marion (
talk) 19:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- And I also want to add an argument : in wikipédia, there are more men biographies than women (statistics). And, when I read them, as I am for a long time a wikipedia reader, I noticed we often read that men "became" something, someone, an artist, a politician etc. by their own. But, here is also a part of feminist ideas, I find important to explain people grew up in an environnement. In social sciences, we used to consider the environnement as much as the person. So this page has also this aim, to remain in the 18th, people could became scientist when women were activ in the education. Because there were no schools. And because, men, with letterature wont organize themselves for children. Women did the link for that, they were central. So : I find Marie-Elisabeth has a full place in wikipedia by her own. For the reason why, research in that field progress (role of women in the Royalties times) in social sciences and this article can be developped in the future. We are more in a time where we find informations about women than in a time where we consider women are part of their husband life or "only mother". Be a mother is something, women who read wikipedia, can find as as much important than being politician. Because, there are so many ways to be mother than to be politician. And not all women dream to be politcian or artist or scientist. So my hypothesis, is, that more women would read wikipedia if there are more diversities in biographies as well. But of course, it is an hypothesis made because I studied social scientist, I used to consider feminists ideas. And in France there is wikipedia project quite activ, but I am not part of it directly, I follow it from far, it is called "the without pages" (les sans pages) where people create biographies of forgotten women.
Marion (
talk) 06:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- And to conclude : I really don't appreciate the method. I am very strict on that way even when I contribute in french wikipedia (my main activity anyway). When something hurt someone but, when that problem dont bring a real deficcience to the full project of wikipedia, a simple discussion inside the article page of discussion, would be enough to start a debate. Always bring deleting process to start a discussion is an abuse. If we do that, wikipedia dont increase, but decrease, more quickly than social sciences increase. So do whatever you want, I dont appreciate the way. Marion ( talk) 06:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- And I also want to add an argument : in wikipédia, there are more men biographies than women (statistics). And, when I read them, as I am for a long time a wikipedia reader, I noticed we often read that men "became" something, someone, an artist, a politician etc. by their own. But, here is also a part of feminist ideas, I find important to explain people grew up in an environnement. In social sciences, we used to consider the environnement as much as the person. So this page has also this aim, to remain in the 18th, people could became scientist when women were activ in the education. Because there were no schools. And because, men, with letterature wont organize themselves for children. Women did the link for that, they were central. So : I find Marie-Elisabeth has a full place in wikipedia by her own. For the reason why, research in that field progress (role of women in the Royalties times) in social sciences and this article can be developped in the future. We are more in a time where we find informations about women than in a time where we consider women are part of their husband life or "only mother". Be a mother is something, women who read wikipedia, can find as as much important than being politician. Because, there are so many ways to be mother than to be politician. And not all women dream to be politcian or artist or scientist. So my hypothesis, is, that more women would read wikipedia if there are more diversities in biographies as well. But of course, it is an hypothesis made because I studied social scientist, I used to consider feminists ideas. And in France there is wikipedia project quite activ, but I am not part of it directly, I follow it from far, it is called "the without pages" (les sans pages) where people create biographies of forgotten women.
Marion (
talk) 06:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- I must add something : german page exist first. Then, I translated the page from german to french. Then I decided to give an emphasis the this article, by making a translation to english. So, in french, when I created the article, nothing was told about it. In german, I dont know as the article exist previously.
Marion (
talk) 19:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete unless it can be expanded to say more about the subject. Nearly everything in the article currently is not about her - it is about her family, her husbands, and what happened with her bequest after she died. Marion Leconte, I take your point, but the Notability rules are the same for men and women - the question is whether there is enough material about her (not the people around her, but her) to support an article. At the moment it isn't there, but I will be happy to change my view if extra relevant material can be added.-- Gronk Oz ( talk) 09:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women and Germany. Shellwood ( talk) 18:57, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep for historical reasons. The article is richly sourced and explains her family relationships, her strong interest in the education of her sons, and the significant position she inherited.-- Ipigott ( talk) 10:41, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep as owner of the Falkenberg estate which she remodeled heavily. Axisstroke ( talk) 15:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 18:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- As I proposed, maintaining my delete position. Regarding the Falkenberg estate, the expansion there can readily be described on the
Falkenberg (Berlin) page (which is what is done over on .de). If family relationships are seen as important, these should should sit on the articles of one of the sons (or, indeed, why not for one of the husbands).
Klbrain (
talk) 14:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- I maintain my arguments. I understand the point of view for deleting this article. But, in the reason of diversity, we need to accept, motherhood and planning education of children is important as much as people who organised wars, planned destructions or else. No place for her in her husband pages : they don't exist (if I dont mistake). Marion ( talk) 18:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- The importance of the motherhood and fatherhood and planning the educations is undisputable, but this isn't a good case study of any of these. The source that support Marie's maternal care for her children is a 19th century hagiography "The mothers of great men and women ...". The other key sources, Minguet (1969) has a quite different view (automated translation of
paragraph 19 of 'Première période')
Marie Elisabeth von Humboldt, was a haughty, cold woman who had little emotional relationship with her children. After the disappearance of her husband, who was a "...man of pleasant trade, of lively and cheerful conversation"... it is on the contrary, "... an atmosphere of compassed formalism and boredom created around her Madame de Humboldt mother".
Klbrain ( talk) 23:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)- Ok, this is a personnal point of view (yours). But people spoke about her, she has a public notoriety and there is a picture in common, a category in common, an article in german, and 6 english spoken articles who mention her name. Wikipedia speaks about people who have been previously subject of books or studies, which is her case. Mothers, good in education, are not always warmfull. Education of today, principle of "love" (children's care) was not main stream at that time, I could add studies about that topic int this article, if the problem points there. Marion ( talk) 06:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- The importance of the motherhood and fatherhood and planning the educations is undisputable, but this isn't a good case study of any of these. The source that support Marie's maternal care for her children is a 19th century hagiography "The mothers of great men and women ...". The other key sources, Minguet (1969) has a quite different view (automated translation of
paragraph 19 of 'Première période')
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The sourcing is sufficient to make Marie-Elisabeth independently notable from her sons, especially when taking German sources into account. Cortador ( talk) 22:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. There are plenty of precedents of parents deeply and actively involved in their children's' education and starting their careers - call it the well accepted Mama Rose exception. Bearian ( talk) 16:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.