- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Draftify then create Redirect from this page title.. I think if a simple Revert to a Redirect is done as proposed, the edit can easily be reverted by a passing editor. Also, if there is a Redirect, moving a draft article back to this page title will require assistance from a page mover or admin so it's not a casual move back to main space. Liz Read! Talk! 00:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Burkhard Garweg
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- Burkhard Garweg ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I think that this article should be reverted to its pre-existing redirect to
Members_of_the_Red_Army_Faction#Third_generation_Red_Army_Faction_(1982–1993) on
WP:BLPCRIME and GNG considerations. In contrast to other 3rd generation RAF members
Daniela Klette and
Ernst-Volker Staub, Garweg has not actually been convicted of any crime. Coverage is fleeting, exclusively in the context of suspected activities in the third-generation RAF, and the stronger of the cited sources,
Der Spiegel solely frames criminal charges against Garweg beyond association with the third-generation RAF in attribution to the authorities rather than as statements of fact, as well as stating that little is known about Burkhard Garweg
(Über Burkhard Garweg ist nur wenig bekannt
). signed,
Rosguill
talk 15:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Crime,
Politics,
Terrorism, and
Germany. signed,
Rosguill
talk 15:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I disagree, this is certainly of interest to researchers of the Red Army Faction and their activities post-1998. Seeing as there has recently been news related to the attempted arrest of Garweg
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/german-prosecutors-urge-red-army-faction-suspects-to-surrender, and he remains on the EUROPOL "Most wanted list"
https://eumostwanted.eu/index.php/garweg-burkhard, there are enough sources online to make this article worthwhile. As for this page being deleted on
WP:BLPCRIME, I'll point out that many of the people "at large" in
FBI Most Wanted Terrorists have never been convicted in court either and have similar amounts of news coverage as Burkhard Garweg.
WintermuteKnows (
talk) 20:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- The sources you've linked contain basically no biographical information about Garweg other than the fact that he is wanted by the German authorities. The same cannot be said of the entires on FBI Most Wanted Terrorists that have their own articles. signed, Rosguill talk 20:20, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I disagree, this is certainly of interest to researchers of the Red Army Faction and their activities post-1998. Seeing as there has recently been news related to the attempted arrest of Garweg
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/german-prosecutors-urge-red-army-faction-suspects-to-surrender, and he remains on the EUROPOL "Most wanted list"
https://eumostwanted.eu/index.php/garweg-burkhard, there are enough sources online to make this article worthwhile. As for this page being deleted on
WP:BLPCRIME, I'll point out that many of the people "at large" in
FBI Most Wanted Terrorists have never been convicted in court either and have similar amounts of news coverage as Burkhard Garweg.
WintermuteKnows (
talk) 20:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 17:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify - I can only check one of the three sources since two are paywalled but can AGF when Rosguill says there isn't much significant coverage and there isn't much on the two sources supplied by WintermuteKnows. This may change in future so I don't think delete is the best option, which leaves me at draftify so as to remove from public-facing space. Mujinga ( talk) 12:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect, or at least draftify until it's been rewritten. Most of this article is about actions of the 3rd generation RAF that he may or may not have participated in (the article literally says he probably joined the RAF, the cited source does not mention him by name, and the article also says it's unclear who actually did what with the RAF). If he's notable for being on Europol's most wanted list, then the article should be about the robberies and whatnot he's wanted for, and not contain a bunch of info on politically motivated killings that he may or may not have been involved with (you'd need some serious sources to meet BLPCRIME for assassination when his Europol listing is for aggravated robbery). As it stands, this really feels like an article about several people and the terrorist group they (probably, using the wording of the article) joined, not the actual subject of the article. EasyAsPai ( talk) 20:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 20:33, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Prove has today been published linking Garweg to
Daniela Klette
see here. (Apart from that he is a personality in the international media with detailed information.)
82.174.61.58 (
talk) 16:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- This doesn't look like significant coverage:
In het huis van de gearresteerde RAF-terrorist Daniela Klette zijn sporen gevonden van twee andere gezochte RAF-terroristen; Ernst-Volker Staub en Burkhard Garweg. Dat meldt de recherche in Nedersaksen. Een foto bewijst dat Burkhard Garweg in het appartement van Klette in Berlijn is geweest. Op het beeld is te zien dat hij bij haar thuis op de bank zit tussen twee honden in. Waarschijnlijk onderhielden hij en Klette nauw contact.
- I would be persuaded by sources with biographical information about this subject; the above is circumstantial evidence and speculation. signed, Rosguill talk 16:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- This article proves that they are linked. That’s what I’m saying
82.174.61.58 (
talk) 17:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Not to the satisfaction of
WP:BLPCRIME:
A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.
Your comments here largely underline the importance of abiding by this policy and converting the article back to a redirect. signed, Rosguill talk 17:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note regarding the rationale of the nominator
In contrast to other 3rd generation RAF members Daniela Klette and Ernst-Volker Staub, Garweg has not actually been convicted of any crime
—> Klette is also not (yet) convicted. But please correct me if I’m wrong. 82.174.61.58 ( talk) 17:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note regarding the rationale of the nominator
- Not to the satisfaction of
WP:BLPCRIME:
- This article proves that they are linked. That’s what I’m saying
82.174.61.58 (
talk) 17:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- This doesn't look like significant coverage:
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts ( talk/ contributions) 01:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Draftify then create Redirect from this page title.. I think if a simple Revert to a Redirect is done as proposed, the edit can easily be reverted by a passing editor. Also, if there is a Redirect, moving a draft article back to this page title will require assistance from a page mover or admin so it's not a casual move back to main space. Liz Read! Talk! 00:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Burkhard Garweg
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Burkhard Garweg ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I think that this article should be reverted to its pre-existing redirect to
Members_of_the_Red_Army_Faction#Third_generation_Red_Army_Faction_(1982–1993) on
WP:BLPCRIME and GNG considerations. In contrast to other 3rd generation RAF members
Daniela Klette and
Ernst-Volker Staub, Garweg has not actually been convicted of any crime. Coverage is fleeting, exclusively in the context of suspected activities in the third-generation RAF, and the stronger of the cited sources,
Der Spiegel solely frames criminal charges against Garweg beyond association with the third-generation RAF in attribution to the authorities rather than as statements of fact, as well as stating that little is known about Burkhard Garweg
(Über Burkhard Garweg ist nur wenig bekannt
). signed,
Rosguill
talk 15:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Crime,
Politics,
Terrorism, and
Germany. signed,
Rosguill
talk 15:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I disagree, this is certainly of interest to researchers of the Red Army Faction and their activities post-1998. Seeing as there has recently been news related to the attempted arrest of Garweg
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/german-prosecutors-urge-red-army-faction-suspects-to-surrender, and he remains on the EUROPOL "Most wanted list"
https://eumostwanted.eu/index.php/garweg-burkhard, there are enough sources online to make this article worthwhile. As for this page being deleted on
WP:BLPCRIME, I'll point out that many of the people "at large" in
FBI Most Wanted Terrorists have never been convicted in court either and have similar amounts of news coverage as Burkhard Garweg.
WintermuteKnows (
talk) 20:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- The sources you've linked contain basically no biographical information about Garweg other than the fact that he is wanted by the German authorities. The same cannot be said of the entires on FBI Most Wanted Terrorists that have their own articles. signed, Rosguill talk 20:20, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. I disagree, this is certainly of interest to researchers of the Red Army Faction and their activities post-1998. Seeing as there has recently been news related to the attempted arrest of Garweg
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/german-prosecutors-urge-red-army-faction-suspects-to-surrender, and he remains on the EUROPOL "Most wanted list"
https://eumostwanted.eu/index.php/garweg-burkhard, there are enough sources online to make this article worthwhile. As for this page being deleted on
WP:BLPCRIME, I'll point out that many of the people "at large" in
FBI Most Wanted Terrorists have never been convicted in court either and have similar amounts of news coverage as Burkhard Garweg.
WintermuteKnows (
talk) 20:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) ( talk) 17:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- Draftify - I can only check one of the three sources since two are paywalled but can AGF when Rosguill says there isn't much significant coverage and there isn't much on the two sources supplied by WintermuteKnows. This may change in future so I don't think delete is the best option, which leaves me at draftify so as to remove from public-facing space. Mujinga ( talk) 12:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect, or at least draftify until it's been rewritten. Most of this article is about actions of the 3rd generation RAF that he may or may not have participated in (the article literally says he probably joined the RAF, the cited source does not mention him by name, and the article also says it's unclear who actually did what with the RAF). If he's notable for being on Europol's most wanted list, then the article should be about the robberies and whatnot he's wanted for, and not contain a bunch of info on politically motivated killings that he may or may not have been involved with (you'd need some serious sources to meet BLPCRIME for assassination when his Europol listing is for aggravated robbery). As it stands, this really feels like an article about several people and the terrorist group they (probably, using the wording of the article) joined, not the actual subject of the article. EasyAsPai ( talk) 20:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 20:33, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Prove has today been published linking Garweg to
Daniela Klette
see here. (Apart from that he is a personality in the international media with detailed information.)
82.174.61.58 (
talk) 16:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- This doesn't look like significant coverage:
In het huis van de gearresteerde RAF-terrorist Daniela Klette zijn sporen gevonden van twee andere gezochte RAF-terroristen; Ernst-Volker Staub en Burkhard Garweg. Dat meldt de recherche in Nedersaksen. Een foto bewijst dat Burkhard Garweg in het appartement van Klette in Berlijn is geweest. Op het beeld is te zien dat hij bij haar thuis op de bank zit tussen twee honden in. Waarschijnlijk onderhielden hij en Klette nauw contact.
- I would be persuaded by sources with biographical information about this subject; the above is circumstantial evidence and speculation. signed, Rosguill talk 16:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- This article proves that they are linked. That’s what I’m saying
82.174.61.58 (
talk) 17:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Not to the satisfaction of
WP:BLPCRIME:
A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law. Accusations, investigations and arrests do not amount to a conviction.
Your comments here largely underline the importance of abiding by this policy and converting the article back to a redirect. signed, Rosguill talk 17:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note regarding the rationale of the nominator
In contrast to other 3rd generation RAF members Daniela Klette and Ernst-Volker Staub, Garweg has not actually been convicted of any crime
—> Klette is also not (yet) convicted. But please correct me if I’m wrong. 82.174.61.58 ( talk) 17:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note regarding the rationale of the nominator
- Not to the satisfaction of
WP:BLPCRIME:
- This article proves that they are linked. That’s what I’m saying
82.174.61.58 (
talk) 17:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- This doesn't look like significant coverage:
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts ( talk/ contributions) 01:05, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.