 | This discussion was subject to a
deletion review on 2023 October 10. For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review. |
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. After consideration of alternative transliterations, etc., it seems that this battle may have occurred, but it doesn't appear to be notable. RL0919 ( talk) 15:01, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Battle of Burshek
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- Battle of Burshek ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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The article describes a battle which supposedly took place in Albania in 1467. This battle is not mentioned in WP:RS, the location itself doesn't exist in Albania and it's not mentioned in historical sources. There are barely any references to any Büzürşek/Bursek in any source and the term seems to fail even WP:N. Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Military, and Albania. Hey man im josh ( talk) 16:13, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 18:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: a problem is that "Burshak" is the article creator's transliteration of the Turkish "Buzurşek" into English. Putting the two online sources through Google Translate yields "Buzursek" but I don't know if Google Translate is reliable for Turkish names of Albanian places. The place itself is probably called neither of these names in Albanian, the local language.
- (Also, @ Maleschreiber, don't forget to notify the article creator, Keremmaarda, about this AfD.)
- --
A. B. (
talk •
contribs •
global count) 18:40, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- This battle was connected to the Third Siege of Krujë in 1467. Our article for that siege says that Burshek is in the Shkumbin River valley, so that's something of a clue to location. We also have Category:Mountain passes of Albania - it doesn't mention Burshek.
- The reference for our Third Siege of Krujë article is The Sultan of Vezirs: The Life and Times of the Ottoman Grand Vezir Mahmud. The 1467 Ottoman campaign in Albania is covered on pages 163-164; it does not mention Burshek but devotes a lengthy paragraph to a general account of heavy fighting and pillaging in the mountains. This section has footnotes for potentially more detailed references for this campaign.
- -- A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 19:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: With anything related to
Skanderbeg, I am immediately skeptical because of how much romanticism surrounds his campaigns, both from the Christian and Turkish perspectives. As such, I am concerned that the only academic mentions (ex.
[1]
[2]) I could find of this battle is in Turkish historiography from the late 20th-century, a period of increased nationalism in Turkey. As such, even if this battle did occur (which in fairness, it probably did, though maybe not in the way the article suggests), I would not trust any numbers; for example, this article suggests that
more than 10,000
Albanians were casualties, though the Albanian armyrarely exceeded 10,000 men
( [3]). Curbon7 ( talk) 21:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)- It's highly unlikely this battle even occurred, a battle that involved the 2 greatest leaders of the 15th century to not be recorded is simply impossible and also Mehmed II would've never gone to battle against Skanderbeg with only 30 thousand troops he regularly had 80-100 thousand troops in his military campaigns. But also the sources the creator of the page uses are very unreliable, 2 out of the 8 sources he added have Sites the rest don't, 6 out of the 8 sources are Pro-Ottoman sources I.E not reliable, 1 out of the 2 None Turkish sources was written by Franz Babinger, an orientalist and historian who's many doctrines were speculative and not supported with evidence.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 17:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Even the most famous biography of Franz Babinger is one of the few academic works available with no cited sources, and its authority rests solely on the reputation of the author's research abilities. The only other non-Turkish source was written by John Freely. I took the liberty of searching for the words "Burshek," "Shkumbin," and "Büzürşek" (names of the area according to the creator of the page), but nothing came up. This means that not even his own source agrees with him.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 17:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- I used Babinger for the number of armies in the 1467 Albanian campaign, but not in the part where I described the war. And John Freely, I explained what was in the background, why Mehmed went on the Albanian expedition. I took the war part from Selahattin Tansel's book and I added another university thesis there, you can see it in the PDF part of the page. I did not read the Albanian documents in the sources of the period, but in the Turkish sources, the war is mentioned in the works of Kemalpaşazade and Tursun Bey. Keremmaarda ( talk) 18:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Even the most famous biography of Franz Babinger is one of the few academic works available with no cited sources, and its authority rests solely on the reputation of the author's research abilities. The only other non-Turkish source was written by John Freely. I took the liberty of searching for the words "Burshek," "Shkumbin," and "Büzürşek" (names of the area according to the creator of the page), but nothing came up. This means that not even his own source agrees with him.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 17:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- It's highly unlikely this battle even occurred, a battle that involved the 2 greatest leaders of the 15th century to not be recorded is simply impossible and also Mehmed II would've never gone to battle against Skanderbeg with only 30 thousand troops he regularly had 80-100 thousand troops in his military campaigns. But also the sources the creator of the page uses are very unreliable, 2 out of the 8 sources he added have Sites the rest don't, 6 out of the 8 sources are Pro-Ottoman sources I.E not reliable, 1 out of the 2 None Turkish sources was written by Franz Babinger, an orientalist and historian who's many doctrines were speculative and not supported with evidence.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 17:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete per all of the above. If we can't have a reliable article, we don't want it hanging around.
- -- A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 17:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete The discussion above concluded that the article is not based on reliable sources, and that most of the sources don't even mention a battle in a place called Burshek.
GermanManFromFrankfurt (
talk) 18:23, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand, are university sources unreliable? Ottoman sources of the period mention that Burshek was the name of a valley. Keremmaarda ( talk) 18:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Or are you trying to protect Skanderbeg?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 18:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- All things considered, the battle isnt documented in any other sources. Marlin Barleti, one of the main sources for the life of Skanderbeg, never mentioned the battle. In his 500+ page book about the life of Skanderbeg only mentioned Burshek once as one of the villages south of Elbasan where he set up camp. There is no mention of a battle in the area. Although I must say that there is a rather vague line about the Ottomans setting camp which states: "...after he enforced and secured the area he set up his camp...". The line could suggest that there was a struggle the Ottomans encountered in the area, or that the Ottomans ordered scouts to search for an enemy ambush ,but its too vague and ambiguous. So in the end, the battle wasn't well recoded to be considered "canon".
Gertice4 (
talk) 13:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- I made the beginning too confusing, when I say "one of the villages south of Elbasan where he set up camp" by "he" I mean Mehmed, not Barleti. Gertice4 ( talk) 13:04, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Bro, the reality of the war has been accepted by the Wikipedia admin. They were just looking for geographic area. Keremmaarda ( talk) 18:49, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- All things considered, the battle isnt documented in any other sources. Marlin Barleti, one of the main sources for the life of Skanderbeg, never mentioned the battle. In his 500+ page book about the life of Skanderbeg only mentioned Burshek once as one of the villages south of Elbasan where he set up camp. There is no mention of a battle in the area. Although I must say that there is a rather vague line about the Ottomans setting camp which states: "...after he enforced and secured the area he set up his camp...". The line could suggest that there was a struggle the Ottomans encountered in the area, or that the Ottomans ordered scouts to search for an enemy ambush ,but its too vague and ambiguous. So in the end, the battle wasn't well recoded to be considered "canon".
Gertice4 (
talk) 13:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: I have spent some time searching for sources. I don't know how much anyone will think it's worth, but here is a summary of what I found. Searching for information about this is not helped either by the fact that "Burshek" appears to be an idiosyncratic version of the name, not used, as far as I can find, anywhere other than in this Wikipedia article, or by the fact that Google translates Büzürşek or Buzurşek into English as Buzursek, which likewise doesn't seem to be in common use. The natural English transliteration of Buzurşek is Buzurshek, and I have found a few sources referring to a battle at Buzurşek (in Turkish) or Buzurshek (in English). There aren't many of them, and I'm not sure how reliable they are, but they certainly exist, and are clearly referring to the same incident as in the Wikipedia article, though there is not a lot of overlap in the actual information about the battle. If the sources can be relied on, then the battle did take place, though I have been able to find far less coverage of it than I would have liked. I also haven't found any mention of Buzurşek or Buzurshek in any context other than referring to this battle, but it appears to have been merely the name of a narrow stretch of a valley, and it's entirely possible that it was a small and insignificant part, so that the name was rarely recorded, and that it has not survived into modern times. It's also possible that there is more about it, but in Albanian, where the form of the name will not be identical to that in Turkish, and so I don't know what to search for. There may likewise be more coverage of the battle in Albanian. There may even be more in English under a different anglicisation of the name: I only came up with Buzurshek because I know enough about Turkish spelling to think that a likely anglicisation, and for all I know the usual form may be yet another spelling, not Buzurshek, Buzursek, or Burshek.
- Here are some sources which I found:
- https://www.tarihikadim.com/fatih-sultan-mehmedin-arnavutluk-seferleri-1466-1467-1468/ which is cited in the article, and which says, in Google translation, In the spring of 1467, the Ottoman army moved towards Albania. Hearing the news that Mehmed the Conqueror had come upon him with a large army, Iskender Bey lifted the Ilbasan Siege and retreated. Even on this news, Sultan II Mehmed showed that he wanted to solve the Albanian problem by not ending the expedition. The most difficult struggle for the Ottoman army in this expedition took place in the Buzursek Strait. The struggle of the Ottoman army and Albanian troops in the bottleneck, surrounded by mountains on both sides, continued from morning to evening... etc etc...
- https://about-history.com/the-story-of-gjergj-kastrioti-skanderbeg-a-true-enemy-to-the-sultan/ which says Yet in July 1467 the whole Turkish army with Sultan Mehmet at its head again assaulted Albania. At Buzurshek near Elbasan a bloody battle was fought out..
- https://acikerisim.uludag.edu.tr/bitstream/11452/9979/1/264994.pdf for which the Google translation is so incoherent as to be almost totally incomprehensible, but it mentions Buzurshek, and then "a fierce battle in his throat", which I think must be a very poor translation of an original which probably means something like a fierce battle in the narrow stretch of the Buzurshek valley. (Compare the translation above as "bottleneck".) JBW ( talk) 19:10, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete I fail to understand how a toponym can be named Buzurshek before the Ottoman conquest of Albania. I have not seen any significant RS that can uphold the article and prove the claims. As per WP:UNDUE, I can not see any ground to let it stay. AlexBachmann ( talk) 20:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- According to the initial source cited, the Ottoman forces advanced towards Albania, and that Mehmed the Conqueror himself responded by assembling an army to counter the threat. With an army numbering around 30 thousand soldiers. In the context of the vast Ottoman Empire, this force could be considered relatively modest, as numerous pashas wielded similar or even more substantial military army's. Consequently, one could argue that the decision of the Sultan to directly engage a formidable opponent like Skanderbeg, renowned for his successes against larger enemy forces, appears rather imprudent and fraught with risk. Therefore, invites skepticism regarding the purported strategy of confronting Skanderbeg's forces head-on, given the Ottoman Empire's vast resources and potential for more nuanced approaches to dealing with regional adversaries. Based.shqiptar.frompirok ( talk) 21:38, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Draftify. Despite the confusion on the spelling, there appears to have been a battle in "Buzurshek". It is unclear whether it is notable enough, and there are various problems regarding the sources. Though, apart from the primary sources and websites such as "tarihikadim", there appears to be some likely RS here (which I didn't check for verification). But then, many book references lack page numbers. As per JBW's findings and since the creator of the article is active and has commented on the AfD nomination, I suggest draftification. If it can't reach a level that is adequate for the mainspace after some time, it will be deleted anyways. Aintabli ( talk) 20:55, 26 July 2023 (UTC)- Delete. As one of the few sources that could be decent turned out to be a Masters dissertation and as per new comments by others, including the article's creator, I don't believe draftification would help anymore. Aintabli ( talk) 18:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think a article can be sustained with sources like "acikerisim.uludag.edu.tr" and "tarihikadim.com". About the second source, it says following:
Yet in July 1467 the whole Turkish army with Sultan Mehmet at its head again assaulted Albania. At Buzurshek near Elbasan a bloody battle was fought out. Through the victory he had achieved [...]
- It would have been recorded in multiple historical sources, as well as in many reliable sources if this battle really happened (involving 40.000 alleged fighters).
AlexBachmann (
talk) 21:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ AlexBachmann "acikerisim.uludag.edu.tr" is not some random website. It is the DSpace of Bursa Uludağ University, but when I checked the citation part there, I noticed it reads "Yayınlanmamış yüksek lisans tezi", which means "unpublished Masters thesis", so it is not necessarily reliable (not because of the "website"). Aintabli ( talk) 21:25, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- What exactly do I need to do and what do you want?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 23:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Well what do you want to improve when the battle might never have happened? AlexBachmann ( talk) 19:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: I have seen no decent arguments about why it should stay in the mainspace. The sources cited are unreliable, it's highly unlikely Mehmed II came to fight Skanderbeg with only 30 thousand troops and I have watched many documentary and videos about Skanderbeg in my life and not a single video ever talked about such battle.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 23:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mehmed did not care about Skanderbeg and Albania. He saw his biggest rivals as Hungarian king Janos and Uzun Hasan. And he is besieging a fortress like Belgrade with a force of 30 thousand, it would be an ideal figure for Mehmed to land an army of 30 thousand for Albania. Because Albania is a small place in his eyes, even he has a saying "I can knock it down with one look" Says.
Keremmaarda (
talk) 23:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mehmed thought highly of Skanderbeg, when Skanderbeg died in 1468 Mehmed is quoted by saying "Woe to Christianity; they have lost their sword and shield" and saying Mehmed could've conquered Albania if hr wanted to while losing 2 sieges and 1 campaign against Skanderbeg himself is you just trying to undermine Skanderbeg.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 23:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Franz Babinger says the phrase "he lost his swords and shields" is a fabrication. Mehmed saw Janos Hunyadi and Uzun Hasan as his biggest rivals because they were the kings of a powerful state. Don't get me wrong, Skanderbeg is for me a stronger opponent than Uzun Hasan and Hunyadi, but in Mehmed's eyes he was not. Keremmaarda ( talk) 00:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- And Mehmed does not lose against Skanderbeg in any siege. Keremmaarda ( talk) 00:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- If Mehmed thought 30 thousand troops would be an ideal number to attack Albania with, why did he regularly send pashas with greater armies than that to face Skanderbeg, Even his own father (Murad II] gathered 100-400 thousand troops to siege Krujë in 1450 and still lost, These are all battles that Skanderbeg fought where the Ottomans had a higher troops number than 30 thousand:
Battle of Albulena,
Battle of Torvioll,
Mehmed II's Albanian campaign,
Skanderbeg's Macedonian campaign,
First Siege of Krujë,
Second Siege of Krujë and
Third Siege of Krujë to name a few and not counting the
Siege of Svetigrad where Murad II and Mehmed II sieged the fortress of Svetigrad with 80 thousand troops (Skanderbeg wasn't involved in the siege).
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 01:54, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Do you really believe the number 150-400 thousand? These army numbers are exaggerated. Since there are no modern authoritative numbers, period sources are used. An army of 150,000 men could not be reached even during the reign of Sultan Suleiman. The scientist Halil Inalcik says that Sultan Suleiman gathered a maximum of 117,000 armies.It is impossible to have that many armies during the reign of Sultan Murad and Sultan Mehmed. And Sultan Mehmed pashas usually give 15-20k army. If we look at the sources of the period, Mehmed enters Albania with an army of 200 thousand, but the document found by Franz Babinger says that his army consists of 30 thousand people. Let alone believing the exaggerated period sources, Sultan Murad did not collect 100k armies even in Kosovo and Varna. And scientist Halil İnalcık says that Mehmed gathered the biggest army Battle of Otlukbeli, the number of this army is between 85-100k. Keremmaarda ( talk) 08:33, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- And think about it. According to modern sources, Mehmed has an army of 60-80k even during the siege of Istanbul, and according to İlber Ortaylı, he has an army of 50 thousand people. Do you think the man who managed to raise 60-80k armies for the siege of Istanbul can raise 100-400k men for Kruje?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 08:37, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- All of the battles I mentioned have sources for the strength of the Ottoman force, unlike your
Battle of Burshek (which is also a key reason why it should be deleted). And what does a scientist have to do with this kind of history? I would confidently say that I know more about this type of history than most scientists, and I have shown countless times that
Franz Babinger is NOT a reliable source. Furthermore, since you only take history from Turkish sources, why don't you stop using Babinger's sources, just as
Halil İnalcık suggested? It's funny how you mentioned the
Battle of Otlukbeli as the battle where Mehmed II had the most troops in his life, but when you look at the page and scroll down to the page history section, you removed 300,000 Ottoman cavalry from the strengths section.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 18:20, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Halil İnalcık is a scientist in the field of history. And no the Ottomans didn't have 300,000 soldiers, they are numbers that are exaggerated to make the Ottomans strong. Keremmaarda ( talk) 13:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- All of the battles I mentioned have sources for the strength of the Ottoman force, unlike your
Battle of Burshek (which is also a key reason why it should be deleted). And what does a scientist have to do with this kind of history? I would confidently say that I know more about this type of history than most scientists, and I have shown countless times that
Franz Babinger is NOT a reliable source. Furthermore, since you only take history from Turkish sources, why don't you stop using Babinger's sources, just as
Halil İnalcık suggested? It's funny how you mentioned the
Battle of Otlukbeli as the battle where Mehmed II had the most troops in his life, but when you look at the page and scroll down to the page history section, you removed 300,000 Ottoman cavalry from the strengths section.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 18:20, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mehmed thought highly of Skanderbeg, when Skanderbeg died in 1468 Mehmed is quoted by saying "Woe to Christianity; they have lost their sword and shield" and saying Mehmed could've conquered Albania if hr wanted to while losing 2 sieges and 1 campaign against Skanderbeg himself is you just trying to undermine Skanderbeg.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 23:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mehmed did not care about Skanderbeg and Albania. He saw his biggest rivals as Hungarian king Janos and Uzun Hasan. And he is besieging a fortress like Belgrade with a force of 30 thousand, it would be an ideal figure for Mehmed to land an army of 30 thousand for Albania. Because Albania is a small place in his eyes, even he has a saying "I can knock it down with one look" Says.
Keremmaarda (
talk) 23:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note Büzürşek/Bursek is Byshek, a well-known location near
Elbasan.
Ktrimi991 (
talk) 14:33, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Some sources follow each other, show that this war exists, and there is no source that denies this war. Thank you for finding the geo-region, what's more the problem for the page to be deleted?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 18:48, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- The sources are weak and unreliable and you have failed to explain how the battle isn't mentioned in any Venetian, albanian, greek or hungarian sources but only Turkish one's (excluding Franz Babinger who's many doctrines were speculative and not supported with evidence).
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 15:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Because I am only 17 years old, I could not read Albanian, Venetian and Hungarian documents, I can only benefit from Turkish sources. And is it unusable because it is the source of the Turks? I have seen many wars of Skanderbeg that are recorded on Wikipedia but not in Turkish sources, why don't we delete them?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 17:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Do you think when I for an example add a source that's in Macedonia, do you think I speak Macedonian or do you think I translate it like everyone else? And what I mean by unreliable is that those sources don't even have articles or anyway to see if the things you are saying are actually in those sources. I already showed how one of your sources doesn't even have the words "Burshek", "Büzürşek", "Shkumbin" and "Buzurshek" in it. Based.shqiptar.frompirok ( talk) 21:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- And in the discussion section, a Wikipedia administrator threw an Foreign page. Keremmaarda ( talk) 17:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Because I am only 17 years old, I could not read Albanian, Venetian and Hungarian documents, I can only benefit from Turkish sources. And is it unusable because it is the source of the Turks? I have seen many wars of Skanderbeg that are recorded on Wikipedia but not in Turkish sources, why don't we delete them?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 17:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- The sources are weak and unreliable and you have failed to explain how the battle isn't mentioned in any Venetian, albanian, greek or hungarian sources but only Turkish one's (excluding Franz Babinger who's many doctrines were speculative and not supported with evidence).
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 15:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Some sources follow each other, show that this war exists, and there is no source that denies this war. Thank you for finding the geo-region, what's more the problem for the page to be deleted?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 18:48, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete I took a look around, and the topic fails to meet the
WP:NOTABILITY criteria. The only thing the article says about the alleged battle is
The Sultan pressed the Albanian forces in a narrow valley called Burshek, while arming the surrounding mountains with Rumelian and Anatolian soldiers. The battle lasted from morning to evening, with both sides suffering heavy losses. The Albanians wanted to take advantage of the darkness of the night and decided to make a night raid. The night raid ended with the devastation of the Albanians
. This is not a proper discription of a battle, but just 3 generic sentences. They are based on a single source. The rest of the article is "Background" and "Aftermath" about things this or that guy did without any meaningful relation with the battle. As noted above, the infobox makes the ridiculous claim that Skanderbeg lost 10,000 fighters. This would be his biggest loss, however I found no RS specializing in Skanderbeg or that period's Albania mentioning this battle (Malcolm, Schmitt, Frasheri, Anamali etc). Unless multiple high-quality RS are found to elaborate on this battle, it can't have its own article. 2 or 3 sentences based on RS could be added to Skanderbeg's rebellion if RS are found but they only mention the conflict in passing. From my own research, it seems that a conflict happened in Byshek near Elbasan, but it might have been a minor one or part of a larger battle since academics have not cared much about. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:04, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
| This discussion was subject to a
deletion review on 2023 October 10. For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review. |
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. After consideration of alternative transliterations, etc., it seems that this battle may have occurred, but it doesn't appear to be notable. RL0919 ( talk) 15:01, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Battle of Burshek
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- Battle of Burshek ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The article describes a battle which supposedly took place in Albania in 1467. This battle is not mentioned in WP:RS, the location itself doesn't exist in Albania and it's not mentioned in historical sources. There are barely any references to any Büzürşek/Bursek in any source and the term seems to fail even WP:N. Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:56, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Military, and Albania. Hey man im josh ( talk) 16:13, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 18:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: a problem is that "Burshak" is the article creator's transliteration of the Turkish "Buzurşek" into English. Putting the two online sources through Google Translate yields "Buzursek" but I don't know if Google Translate is reliable for Turkish names of Albanian places. The place itself is probably called neither of these names in Albanian, the local language.
- (Also, @ Maleschreiber, don't forget to notify the article creator, Keremmaarda, about this AfD.)
- --
A. B. (
talk •
contribs •
global count) 18:40, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- This battle was connected to the Third Siege of Krujë in 1467. Our article for that siege says that Burshek is in the Shkumbin River valley, so that's something of a clue to location. We also have Category:Mountain passes of Albania - it doesn't mention Burshek.
- The reference for our Third Siege of Krujë article is The Sultan of Vezirs: The Life and Times of the Ottoman Grand Vezir Mahmud. The 1467 Ottoman campaign in Albania is covered on pages 163-164; it does not mention Burshek but devotes a lengthy paragraph to a general account of heavy fighting and pillaging in the mountains. This section has footnotes for potentially more detailed references for this campaign.
- -- A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 19:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: With anything related to
Skanderbeg, I am immediately skeptical because of how much romanticism surrounds his campaigns, both from the Christian and Turkish perspectives. As such, I am concerned that the only academic mentions (ex.
[1]
[2]) I could find of this battle is in Turkish historiography from the late 20th-century, a period of increased nationalism in Turkey. As such, even if this battle did occur (which in fairness, it probably did, though maybe not in the way the article suggests), I would not trust any numbers; for example, this article suggests that
more than 10,000
Albanians were casualties, though the Albanian armyrarely exceeded 10,000 men
( [3]). Curbon7 ( talk) 21:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)- It's highly unlikely this battle even occurred, a battle that involved the 2 greatest leaders of the 15th century to not be recorded is simply impossible and also Mehmed II would've never gone to battle against Skanderbeg with only 30 thousand troops he regularly had 80-100 thousand troops in his military campaigns. But also the sources the creator of the page uses are very unreliable, 2 out of the 8 sources he added have Sites the rest don't, 6 out of the 8 sources are Pro-Ottoman sources I.E not reliable, 1 out of the 2 None Turkish sources was written by Franz Babinger, an orientalist and historian who's many doctrines were speculative and not supported with evidence.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 17:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Even the most famous biography of Franz Babinger is one of the few academic works available with no cited sources, and its authority rests solely on the reputation of the author's research abilities. The only other non-Turkish source was written by John Freely. I took the liberty of searching for the words "Burshek," "Shkumbin," and "Büzürşek" (names of the area according to the creator of the page), but nothing came up. This means that not even his own source agrees with him.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 17:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- I used Babinger for the number of armies in the 1467 Albanian campaign, but not in the part where I described the war. And John Freely, I explained what was in the background, why Mehmed went on the Albanian expedition. I took the war part from Selahattin Tansel's book and I added another university thesis there, you can see it in the PDF part of the page. I did not read the Albanian documents in the sources of the period, but in the Turkish sources, the war is mentioned in the works of Kemalpaşazade and Tursun Bey. Keremmaarda ( talk) 18:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Even the most famous biography of Franz Babinger is one of the few academic works available with no cited sources, and its authority rests solely on the reputation of the author's research abilities. The only other non-Turkish source was written by John Freely. I took the liberty of searching for the words "Burshek," "Shkumbin," and "Büzürşek" (names of the area according to the creator of the page), but nothing came up. This means that not even his own source agrees with him.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 17:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- It's highly unlikely this battle even occurred, a battle that involved the 2 greatest leaders of the 15th century to not be recorded is simply impossible and also Mehmed II would've never gone to battle against Skanderbeg with only 30 thousand troops he regularly had 80-100 thousand troops in his military campaigns. But also the sources the creator of the page uses are very unreliable, 2 out of the 8 sources he added have Sites the rest don't, 6 out of the 8 sources are Pro-Ottoman sources I.E not reliable, 1 out of the 2 None Turkish sources was written by Franz Babinger, an orientalist and historian who's many doctrines were speculative and not supported with evidence.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 17:14, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete per all of the above. If we can't have a reliable article, we don't want it hanging around.
- -- A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count) 17:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete The discussion above concluded that the article is not based on reliable sources, and that most of the sources don't even mention a battle in a place called Burshek.
GermanManFromFrankfurt (
talk) 18:23, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand, are university sources unreliable? Ottoman sources of the period mention that Burshek was the name of a valley. Keremmaarda ( talk) 18:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Or are you trying to protect Skanderbeg?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 18:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- All things considered, the battle isnt documented in any other sources. Marlin Barleti, one of the main sources for the life of Skanderbeg, never mentioned the battle. In his 500+ page book about the life of Skanderbeg only mentioned Burshek once as one of the villages south of Elbasan where he set up camp. There is no mention of a battle in the area. Although I must say that there is a rather vague line about the Ottomans setting camp which states: "...after he enforced and secured the area he set up his camp...". The line could suggest that there was a struggle the Ottomans encountered in the area, or that the Ottomans ordered scouts to search for an enemy ambush ,but its too vague and ambiguous. So in the end, the battle wasn't well recoded to be considered "canon".
Gertice4 (
talk) 13:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- I made the beginning too confusing, when I say "one of the villages south of Elbasan where he set up camp" by "he" I mean Mehmed, not Barleti. Gertice4 ( talk) 13:04, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Bro, the reality of the war has been accepted by the Wikipedia admin. They were just looking for geographic area. Keremmaarda ( talk) 18:49, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- All things considered, the battle isnt documented in any other sources. Marlin Barleti, one of the main sources for the life of Skanderbeg, never mentioned the battle. In his 500+ page book about the life of Skanderbeg only mentioned Burshek once as one of the villages south of Elbasan where he set up camp. There is no mention of a battle in the area. Although I must say that there is a rather vague line about the Ottomans setting camp which states: "...after he enforced and secured the area he set up his camp...". The line could suggest that there was a struggle the Ottomans encountered in the area, or that the Ottomans ordered scouts to search for an enemy ambush ,but its too vague and ambiguous. So in the end, the battle wasn't well recoded to be considered "canon".
Gertice4 (
talk) 13:01, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: I have spent some time searching for sources. I don't know how much anyone will think it's worth, but here is a summary of what I found. Searching for information about this is not helped either by the fact that "Burshek" appears to be an idiosyncratic version of the name, not used, as far as I can find, anywhere other than in this Wikipedia article, or by the fact that Google translates Büzürşek or Buzurşek into English as Buzursek, which likewise doesn't seem to be in common use. The natural English transliteration of Buzurşek is Buzurshek, and I have found a few sources referring to a battle at Buzurşek (in Turkish) or Buzurshek (in English). There aren't many of them, and I'm not sure how reliable they are, but they certainly exist, and are clearly referring to the same incident as in the Wikipedia article, though there is not a lot of overlap in the actual information about the battle. If the sources can be relied on, then the battle did take place, though I have been able to find far less coverage of it than I would have liked. I also haven't found any mention of Buzurşek or Buzurshek in any context other than referring to this battle, but it appears to have been merely the name of a narrow stretch of a valley, and it's entirely possible that it was a small and insignificant part, so that the name was rarely recorded, and that it has not survived into modern times. It's also possible that there is more about it, but in Albanian, where the form of the name will not be identical to that in Turkish, and so I don't know what to search for. There may likewise be more coverage of the battle in Albanian. There may even be more in English under a different anglicisation of the name: I only came up with Buzurshek because I know enough about Turkish spelling to think that a likely anglicisation, and for all I know the usual form may be yet another spelling, not Buzurshek, Buzursek, or Burshek.
- Here are some sources which I found:
- https://www.tarihikadim.com/fatih-sultan-mehmedin-arnavutluk-seferleri-1466-1467-1468/ which is cited in the article, and which says, in Google translation, In the spring of 1467, the Ottoman army moved towards Albania. Hearing the news that Mehmed the Conqueror had come upon him with a large army, Iskender Bey lifted the Ilbasan Siege and retreated. Even on this news, Sultan II Mehmed showed that he wanted to solve the Albanian problem by not ending the expedition. The most difficult struggle for the Ottoman army in this expedition took place in the Buzursek Strait. The struggle of the Ottoman army and Albanian troops in the bottleneck, surrounded by mountains on both sides, continued from morning to evening... etc etc...
- https://about-history.com/the-story-of-gjergj-kastrioti-skanderbeg-a-true-enemy-to-the-sultan/ which says Yet in July 1467 the whole Turkish army with Sultan Mehmet at its head again assaulted Albania. At Buzurshek near Elbasan a bloody battle was fought out..
- https://acikerisim.uludag.edu.tr/bitstream/11452/9979/1/264994.pdf for which the Google translation is so incoherent as to be almost totally incomprehensible, but it mentions Buzurshek, and then "a fierce battle in his throat", which I think must be a very poor translation of an original which probably means something like a fierce battle in the narrow stretch of the Buzurshek valley. (Compare the translation above as "bottleneck".) JBW ( talk) 19:10, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete I fail to understand how a toponym can be named Buzurshek before the Ottoman conquest of Albania. I have not seen any significant RS that can uphold the article and prove the claims. As per WP:UNDUE, I can not see any ground to let it stay. AlexBachmann ( talk) 20:47, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- According to the initial source cited, the Ottoman forces advanced towards Albania, and that Mehmed the Conqueror himself responded by assembling an army to counter the threat. With an army numbering around 30 thousand soldiers. In the context of the vast Ottoman Empire, this force could be considered relatively modest, as numerous pashas wielded similar or even more substantial military army's. Consequently, one could argue that the decision of the Sultan to directly engage a formidable opponent like Skanderbeg, renowned for his successes against larger enemy forces, appears rather imprudent and fraught with risk. Therefore, invites skepticism regarding the purported strategy of confronting Skanderbeg's forces head-on, given the Ottoman Empire's vast resources and potential for more nuanced approaches to dealing with regional adversaries. Based.shqiptar.frompirok ( talk) 21:38, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Draftify. Despite the confusion on the spelling, there appears to have been a battle in "Buzurshek". It is unclear whether it is notable enough, and there are various problems regarding the sources. Though, apart from the primary sources and websites such as "tarihikadim", there appears to be some likely RS here (which I didn't check for verification). But then, many book references lack page numbers. As per JBW's findings and since the creator of the article is active and has commented on the AfD nomination, I suggest draftification. If it can't reach a level that is adequate for the mainspace after some time, it will be deleted anyways. Aintabli ( talk) 20:55, 26 July 2023 (UTC)- Delete. As one of the few sources that could be decent turned out to be a Masters dissertation and as per new comments by others, including the article's creator, I don't believe draftification would help anymore. Aintabli ( talk) 18:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think a article can be sustained with sources like "acikerisim.uludag.edu.tr" and "tarihikadim.com". About the second source, it says following:
Yet in July 1467 the whole Turkish army with Sultan Mehmet at its head again assaulted Albania. At Buzurshek near Elbasan a bloody battle was fought out. Through the victory he had achieved [...]
- It would have been recorded in multiple historical sources, as well as in many reliable sources if this battle really happened (involving 40.000 alleged fighters).
AlexBachmann (
talk) 21:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ AlexBachmann "acikerisim.uludag.edu.tr" is not some random website. It is the DSpace of Bursa Uludağ University, but when I checked the citation part there, I noticed it reads "Yayınlanmamış yüksek lisans tezi", which means "unpublished Masters thesis", so it is not necessarily reliable (not because of the "website"). Aintabli ( talk) 21:25, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- What exactly do I need to do and what do you want?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 23:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Well what do you want to improve when the battle might never have happened? AlexBachmann ( talk) 19:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: I have seen no decent arguments about why it should stay in the mainspace. The sources cited are unreliable, it's highly unlikely Mehmed II came to fight Skanderbeg with only 30 thousand troops and I have watched many documentary and videos about Skanderbeg in my life and not a single video ever talked about such battle.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 23:56, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mehmed did not care about Skanderbeg and Albania. He saw his biggest rivals as Hungarian king Janos and Uzun Hasan. And he is besieging a fortress like Belgrade with a force of 30 thousand, it would be an ideal figure for Mehmed to land an army of 30 thousand for Albania. Because Albania is a small place in his eyes, even he has a saying "I can knock it down with one look" Says.
Keremmaarda (
talk) 23:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mehmed thought highly of Skanderbeg, when Skanderbeg died in 1468 Mehmed is quoted by saying "Woe to Christianity; they have lost their sword and shield" and saying Mehmed could've conquered Albania if hr wanted to while losing 2 sieges and 1 campaign against Skanderbeg himself is you just trying to undermine Skanderbeg.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 23:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Franz Babinger says the phrase "he lost his swords and shields" is a fabrication. Mehmed saw Janos Hunyadi and Uzun Hasan as his biggest rivals because they were the kings of a powerful state. Don't get me wrong, Skanderbeg is for me a stronger opponent than Uzun Hasan and Hunyadi, but in Mehmed's eyes he was not. Keremmaarda ( talk) 00:37, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- And Mehmed does not lose against Skanderbeg in any siege. Keremmaarda ( talk) 00:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
- If Mehmed thought 30 thousand troops would be an ideal number to attack Albania with, why did he regularly send pashas with greater armies than that to face Skanderbeg, Even his own father (Murad II] gathered 100-400 thousand troops to siege Krujë in 1450 and still lost, These are all battles that Skanderbeg fought where the Ottomans had a higher troops number than 30 thousand:
Battle of Albulena,
Battle of Torvioll,
Mehmed II's Albanian campaign,
Skanderbeg's Macedonian campaign,
First Siege of Krujë,
Second Siege of Krujë and
Third Siege of Krujë to name a few and not counting the
Siege of Svetigrad where Murad II and Mehmed II sieged the fortress of Svetigrad with 80 thousand troops (Skanderbeg wasn't involved in the siege).
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 01:54, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Do you really believe the number 150-400 thousand? These army numbers are exaggerated. Since there are no modern authoritative numbers, period sources are used. An army of 150,000 men could not be reached even during the reign of Sultan Suleiman. The scientist Halil Inalcik says that Sultan Suleiman gathered a maximum of 117,000 armies.It is impossible to have that many armies during the reign of Sultan Murad and Sultan Mehmed. And Sultan Mehmed pashas usually give 15-20k army. If we look at the sources of the period, Mehmed enters Albania with an army of 200 thousand, but the document found by Franz Babinger says that his army consists of 30 thousand people. Let alone believing the exaggerated period sources, Sultan Murad did not collect 100k armies even in Kosovo and Varna. And scientist Halil İnalcık says that Mehmed gathered the biggest army Battle of Otlukbeli, the number of this army is between 85-100k. Keremmaarda ( talk) 08:33, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- And think about it. According to modern sources, Mehmed has an army of 60-80k even during the siege of Istanbul, and according to İlber Ortaylı, he has an army of 50 thousand people. Do you think the man who managed to raise 60-80k armies for the siege of Istanbul can raise 100-400k men for Kruje?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 08:37, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- All of the battles I mentioned have sources for the strength of the Ottoman force, unlike your
Battle of Burshek (which is also a key reason why it should be deleted). And what does a scientist have to do with this kind of history? I would confidently say that I know more about this type of history than most scientists, and I have shown countless times that
Franz Babinger is NOT a reliable source. Furthermore, since you only take history from Turkish sources, why don't you stop using Babinger's sources, just as
Halil İnalcık suggested? It's funny how you mentioned the
Battle of Otlukbeli as the battle where Mehmed II had the most troops in his life, but when you look at the page and scroll down to the page history section, you removed 300,000 Ottoman cavalry from the strengths section.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 18:20, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Halil İnalcık is a scientist in the field of history. And no the Ottomans didn't have 300,000 soldiers, they are numbers that are exaggerated to make the Ottomans strong. Keremmaarda ( talk) 13:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- All of the battles I mentioned have sources for the strength of the Ottoman force, unlike your
Battle of Burshek (which is also a key reason why it should be deleted). And what does a scientist have to do with this kind of history? I would confidently say that I know more about this type of history than most scientists, and I have shown countless times that
Franz Babinger is NOT a reliable source. Furthermore, since you only take history from Turkish sources, why don't you stop using Babinger's sources, just as
Halil İnalcık suggested? It's funny how you mentioned the
Battle of Otlukbeli as the battle where Mehmed II had the most troops in his life, but when you look at the page and scroll down to the page history section, you removed 300,000 Ottoman cavalry from the strengths section.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 18:20, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mehmed thought highly of Skanderbeg, when Skanderbeg died in 1468 Mehmed is quoted by saying "Woe to Christianity; they have lost their sword and shield" and saying Mehmed could've conquered Albania if hr wanted to while losing 2 sieges and 1 campaign against Skanderbeg himself is you just trying to undermine Skanderbeg.
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 23:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mehmed did not care about Skanderbeg and Albania. He saw his biggest rivals as Hungarian king Janos and Uzun Hasan. And he is besieging a fortress like Belgrade with a force of 30 thousand, it would be an ideal figure for Mehmed to land an army of 30 thousand for Albania. Because Albania is a small place in his eyes, even he has a saying "I can knock it down with one look" Says.
Keremmaarda (
talk) 23:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note Büzürşek/Bursek is Byshek, a well-known location near
Elbasan.
Ktrimi991 (
talk) 14:33, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Some sources follow each other, show that this war exists, and there is no source that denies this war. Thank you for finding the geo-region, what's more the problem for the page to be deleted?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 18:48, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- The sources are weak and unreliable and you have failed to explain how the battle isn't mentioned in any Venetian, albanian, greek or hungarian sources but only Turkish one's (excluding Franz Babinger who's many doctrines were speculative and not supported with evidence).
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 15:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Because I am only 17 years old, I could not read Albanian, Venetian and Hungarian documents, I can only benefit from Turkish sources. And is it unusable because it is the source of the Turks? I have seen many wars of Skanderbeg that are recorded on Wikipedia but not in Turkish sources, why don't we delete them?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 17:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Do you think when I for an example add a source that's in Macedonia, do you think I speak Macedonian or do you think I translate it like everyone else? And what I mean by unreliable is that those sources don't even have articles or anyway to see if the things you are saying are actually in those sources. I already showed how one of your sources doesn't even have the words "Burshek", "Büzürşek", "Shkumbin" and "Buzurshek" in it. Based.shqiptar.frompirok ( talk) 21:49, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- And in the discussion section, a Wikipedia administrator threw an Foreign page. Keremmaarda ( talk) 17:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Because I am only 17 years old, I could not read Albanian, Venetian and Hungarian documents, I can only benefit from Turkish sources. And is it unusable because it is the source of the Turks? I have seen many wars of Skanderbeg that are recorded on Wikipedia but not in Turkish sources, why don't we delete them?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 17:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- The sources are weak and unreliable and you have failed to explain how the battle isn't mentioned in any Venetian, albanian, greek or hungarian sources but only Turkish one's (excluding Franz Babinger who's many doctrines were speculative and not supported with evidence).
Based.shqiptar.frompirok (
talk) 15:08, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
- Some sources follow each other, show that this war exists, and there is no source that denies this war. Thank you for finding the geo-region, what's more the problem for the page to be deleted?
Keremmaarda (
talk) 18:48, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete I took a look around, and the topic fails to meet the
WP:NOTABILITY criteria. The only thing the article says about the alleged battle is
The Sultan pressed the Albanian forces in a narrow valley called Burshek, while arming the surrounding mountains with Rumelian and Anatolian soldiers. The battle lasted from morning to evening, with both sides suffering heavy losses. The Albanians wanted to take advantage of the darkness of the night and decided to make a night raid. The night raid ended with the devastation of the Albanians
. This is not a proper discription of a battle, but just 3 generic sentences. They are based on a single source. The rest of the article is "Background" and "Aftermath" about things this or that guy did without any meaningful relation with the battle. As noted above, the infobox makes the ridiculous claim that Skanderbeg lost 10,000 fighters. This would be his biggest loss, however I found no RS specializing in Skanderbeg or that period's Albania mentioning this battle (Malcolm, Schmitt, Frasheri, Anamali etc). Unless multiple high-quality RS are found to elaborate on this battle, it can't have its own article. 2 or 3 sentences based on RS could be added to Skanderbeg's rebellion if RS are found but they only mention the conflict in passing. From my own research, it seems that a conflict happened in Byshek near Elbasan, but it might have been a minor one or part of a larger battle since academics have not cared much about. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:04, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.