- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Szzuk ( talk) 20:48, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Santiago and All Chile
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- Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Santiago and All Chile ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a two-sentence article on the Chilean diocese of a small offshoot of the Greek Orthodox Church (the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch). It currently has no references except to the diocesan's official website. A standard BEFORE (JSTOR, newspapers.com, Google News, Google Books), with checks in both English and Spanish, fails to find any additional WP:RS. There is a corresponding page on the Russian Wikipedia, however, it only contains two references, one of which is the diocesan's official website. The second reference, though I don't read Russian, appears to be a single post on the blog of the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Archbishop of Argentina [1]. For lack of WP:SIGCOV in RS, I think this fails WP:GNG. Further, there's essentially no content to merge into the parent article which isn't already contained there (indeed, the parent article actually contains more information on the Chilean diocese). Chetsford ( talk) 17:37, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:40, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Chile-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Chetsford ( talk) 14:29, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Diocese of a major denomination. We keep these. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:54, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- I think I'd disagree that the Church of Antioch is a major denomination but, in any case, for my future edification could you point me to the notability guideline by which diocese have inherent notability? I'd been under the impression sub-divisions of religions had to meet the
WP:GNG (
WP:NCHURCH seems only to apply to church buildings). If there's a guideline I missed, though, it would help me avoid incorrect AfD nominations in the future.
Chetsford (
talk) 14:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Of course it is. It's one of the ancient divisions of Orthodoxy. Nothing specifically covers dioceses, but given
Orthodox bishops are generally seen as notable I think that logically has to extend to the diocese of which they are head, which it could be argued has far more notability than the person who heads it for a fairly brief period. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 14:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- "I think that logically has to extend to the diocese of which they are head" Per
WP:INHERITORG "An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it."
Chetsford (
talk) 14:42, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if we consider the head of the diocese notable by virtue of his office as head of the diocese (as we do) then it's quite clear that the diocese too is notable. That is common sense. I'm not saying the diocese should be considered notable because someone notable was its head. That's a completely different kettle of fish. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 14:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not seeing the difference. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Chetsford (
talk) 14:52, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- A bishop is notable because he is a bishop and heads a diocese. His notability is therefore essentially inherited from the diocese, not vice versa. The diocese is not notable because its bishop is notable as an individual (that would be contrary to WP:INHERITORG); the bishop is notable because of his office as head of the diocese. That's the difference. It would be completely illogical to claim that the bishop was notable because he headed the diocese but the diocese itself was not notable. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not seeing the difference. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Chetsford (
talk) 14:52, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if we consider the head of the diocese notable by virtue of his office as head of the diocese (as we do) then it's quite clear that the diocese too is notable. That is common sense. I'm not saying the diocese should be considered notable because someone notable was its head. That's a completely different kettle of fish. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 14:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- "I think that logically has to extend to the diocese of which they are head" Per
WP:INHERITORG "An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it."
Chetsford (
talk) 14:42, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Of course it is. It's one of the ancient divisions of Orthodoxy. Nothing specifically covers dioceses, but given
Orthodox bishops are generally seen as notable I think that logically has to extend to the diocese of which they are head, which it could be argued has far more notability than the person who heads it for a fairly brief period. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 14:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- I think I'd disagree that the Church of Antioch is a major denomination but, in any case, for my future edification could you point me to the notability guideline by which diocese have inherent notability? I'd been under the impression sub-divisions of religions had to meet the
WP:GNG (
WP:NCHURCH seems only to apply to church buildings). If there's a guideline I missed, though, it would help me avoid incorrect AfD nominations in the future.
Chetsford (
talk) 14:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep Added content from Lebanese christians -- E.3 ( talk) 11:41, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry from Lebanese Chileans, and also a Russian reference from the Russian page. -- E.3 ( talk) 11:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Question on added sources: It appears you added something called "orthodoxwiki.org" (a Wiki), and the same blog post from the church I mentioned in the nom. Were you able to locate any reliable sources or just those? Chetsford ( talk) 14:06, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep as Necrothesp noted keeping it would follow the general practice on WP for dealing with middle judicatory bodies of churches.-- Epiphyllumlover ( talk) 21:40, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep -- The national emanation of a significant denomination, though in this case a rather small one. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep following the reasoning of Necrothesp. Mccapra ( talk) 04:26, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Szzuk ( talk) 20:48, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Santiago and All Chile
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of Santiago and All Chile ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a two-sentence article on the Chilean diocese of a small offshoot of the Greek Orthodox Church (the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch). It currently has no references except to the diocesan's official website. A standard BEFORE (JSTOR, newspapers.com, Google News, Google Books), with checks in both English and Spanish, fails to find any additional WP:RS. There is a corresponding page on the Russian Wikipedia, however, it only contains two references, one of which is the diocesan's official website. The second reference, though I don't read Russian, appears to be a single post on the blog of the Antiochian Greek Orthodox Archbishop of Argentina [1]. For lack of WP:SIGCOV in RS, I think this fails WP:GNG. Further, there's essentially no content to merge into the parent article which isn't already contained there (indeed, the parent article actually contains more information on the Chilean diocese). Chetsford ( talk) 17:37, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:40, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Chile-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 19:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Chetsford ( talk) 14:29, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Diocese of a major denomination. We keep these. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:54, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- I think I'd disagree that the Church of Antioch is a major denomination but, in any case, for my future edification could you point me to the notability guideline by which diocese have inherent notability? I'd been under the impression sub-divisions of religions had to meet the
WP:GNG (
WP:NCHURCH seems only to apply to church buildings). If there's a guideline I missed, though, it would help me avoid incorrect AfD nominations in the future.
Chetsford (
talk) 14:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Of course it is. It's one of the ancient divisions of Orthodoxy. Nothing specifically covers dioceses, but given
Orthodox bishops are generally seen as notable I think that logically has to extend to the diocese of which they are head, which it could be argued has far more notability than the person who heads it for a fairly brief period. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 14:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- "I think that logically has to extend to the diocese of which they are head" Per
WP:INHERITORG "An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it."
Chetsford (
talk) 14:42, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if we consider the head of the diocese notable by virtue of his office as head of the diocese (as we do) then it's quite clear that the diocese too is notable. That is common sense. I'm not saying the diocese should be considered notable because someone notable was its head. That's a completely different kettle of fish. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 14:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not seeing the difference. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Chetsford (
talk) 14:52, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- A bishop is notable because he is a bishop and heads a diocese. His notability is therefore essentially inherited from the diocese, not vice versa. The diocese is not notable because its bishop is notable as an individual (that would be contrary to WP:INHERITORG); the bishop is notable because of his office as head of the diocese. That's the difference. It would be completely illogical to claim that the bishop was notable because he headed the diocese but the diocese itself was not notable. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not seeing the difference. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Chetsford (
talk) 14:52, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if we consider the head of the diocese notable by virtue of his office as head of the diocese (as we do) then it's quite clear that the diocese too is notable. That is common sense. I'm not saying the diocese should be considered notable because someone notable was its head. That's a completely different kettle of fish. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 14:28, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
- "I think that logically has to extend to the diocese of which they are head" Per
WP:INHERITORG "An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it."
Chetsford (
talk) 14:42, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Of course it is. It's one of the ancient divisions of Orthodoxy. Nothing specifically covers dioceses, but given
Orthodox bishops are generally seen as notable I think that logically has to extend to the diocese of which they are head, which it could be argued has far more notability than the person who heads it for a fairly brief period. --
Necrothesp (
talk) 14:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- I think I'd disagree that the Church of Antioch is a major denomination but, in any case, for my future edification could you point me to the notability guideline by which diocese have inherent notability? I'd been under the impression sub-divisions of religions had to meet the
WP:GNG (
WP:NCHURCH seems only to apply to church buildings). If there's a guideline I missed, though, it would help me avoid incorrect AfD nominations in the future.
Chetsford (
talk) 14:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep Added content from Lebanese christians -- E.3 ( talk) 11:41, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry from Lebanese Chileans, and also a Russian reference from the Russian page. -- E.3 ( talk) 11:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Question on added sources: It appears you added something called "orthodoxwiki.org" (a Wiki), and the same blog post from the church I mentioned in the nom. Were you able to locate any reliable sources or just those? Chetsford ( talk) 14:06, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep as Necrothesp noted keeping it would follow the general practice on WP for dealing with middle judicatory bodies of churches.-- Epiphyllumlover ( talk) 21:40, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep -- The national emanation of a significant denomination, though in this case a rather small one. Peterkingiron ( talk) 15:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
- Keep following the reasoning of Necrothesp. Mccapra ( talk) 04:26, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.