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I am considering a formal complaint about ScienceApologist because of his comment at [1]. I am co-director of the AA-EVP [2] and an active researcher in the field of EVP/ITC. He knows I monitor the EVP article, and so I am assuming that he intended his comments to me and my fellow researchers as a personal insult. Alone, this event could be considered an editor having a bad day, but he has used the same tone many times and his active expression of this attitude in his edits has become an obstruction. I now believe the only remedy is to bar him from editing in the paranormal subjects. The offending quote is here:
ScienceApologist should play nice. Just because people believe in tape-recorder ghosts doesn't mean that you should be mean to them on WP. Tom, the article in question needs real, scholarly sources, not references to web sites and popular books. ScienceApologist would be justified in chopping out whole sections of it because they're not properly sourced. But if he does that, he should do it without insulting anyone. Leadwind ( talk) 01:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
My advice to you would be to not be so thin-skinned. I know ScienceApologist can be a bit difficult to deal with sometimes; I have tangled with him before. However, the most important thing here is to not worry about civility, but to produce reasonable articles. So try to work with SA to produce a reasonable NPOV article. And that means including the mainstream position in a substantial way, not trying to promote this as some sort of real phenomenon that is well documented. It is highly controversial, and it should be described as such.-- Filll ( talk) 01:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
WQA is for discussing civility, not content. SA's "Almost everyone who believes in this stuff is basically a moron or an absolute wacko..." has no place on Wikipedia under any circumstances whatsoever. Can't believe there's a "debate" over this. WNDL42 ( talk) 01:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
AAEVP is not quite good enough to source this. They make up all kinds of things at their website. What would be best is if we found someone who didn't believe in EVP reporting on the classification scheme (per WP:FRINGE#Independent sources). Barring that, if we could find one of the people mentioned in our article (like Raudive, for example) who used the classification scheme, at least that would be more authoritative than some website that Tom Butler made up one day. ScienceApologist ( talk) 16:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I see a lot of diversionary tactics going on here. SA, a simple and civil statement here to the effect that you regret that your statement was taken personally would probably suffice. The entirely civil discourse here about the issues with the sources, had it been conducted on the talk page instead of the incendiary and personally directed comments including "ridiculous" and "nonsense" and "moron" and "wacko" that you posted there, would have resulted in a much more effective use of everybody's time and would have prevented this WQA.
Also, a comment for those editors here attempting to justify SA's remark by contextualizing it...you are not helping. WNDL42 ( talk) 22:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Gee, it would be nice if someone would mention the filing to SA himself. I just posted a notice to get his side of the events. seicer | talk | contribs 02:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It is with regret I am putting a Wikiquette alert on a user. I think a better system would be where a Wikiquette alert is placed upon an article and the article is monitored for breaches of etiquette.
[8] and elsewhere.
I will not be making further edits to any of the related articles until a neutral 3rd party takes the articles under watch to ensure proper Wikiquette and Wikipedia policies are followed. BradMajors ( talk) 08:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Despite numerous requests, EliasAlucard, a proud member of the KKK Stormfront [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4968410&postcount=10 forum], seems unable to control his obsessive posting of anti-Semitic claptrap, particularly on the Kevin Macdonald talk page. See e.g., here and here. I'm more than accustomed to having to wade through various editors opinions all over WP talk pages, but exactly how much Jew-hating bile must one put up with from this bigot?
Despite having brought this to AN/I, EliasAlucard continues with his rants, the most recent [13] where this Stormfront member reassures us "that doesn't mean I want all Jews to be killed or anything. All I'm saying, is that they should be criticised so that they can improve themselves" and that Jews "simply need to knock it off with all this warmongering and start realising that criticism can be valuable. In other words, all Jews, "get your shit together" and we can live in a better world."
Besides the flagrant violation of WP:TALK's barring of using Talk Pages for airing personal opinions, this user has leveled a number of anti-Semitic attacks against me including:
Tells me to keep my "pro-Jewish" views out of an article:
And more Jew-baiting of me:
And defends his anti-Semitism and membership in the Jew-hating Storfront forum:
And this particularly vile rationalization for his antiSemitic rantings:
" here: If Jews like Alon Ziv wouldn't be promoting miscegenation for gentiles (and they never promote miscegenation for Jews, of course) like it was the next best thing, people like Kevin MacDonald would have no case against them, and people wouldn't have a problem with Jews, and people like me wouldn't be posting on Stormfront complaining about it"
It's nauseating to have to wade through this users slime to compile this. this needs to stop. Now. Boodlesthecat ( talk) 03:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
This user certainly seems to have a bee in his bonnet about the Jews. I remember removing [14] a long and pointless debate from the Armenian genocide talk page, which had started with him proffering the allegation that the Jews might have been behind that event (on the basis of some crank claims off the Net). -- Folantin ( talk) 12:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Unsubstantiated accusation of trolling here [16] see last comment bogdan (talk) 01:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC) -- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♣♥♦ 01:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Isn't that trolling? bogdan ( talk) 01:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
At a minimum, this problem involves what can charitably be construed as an abrasive editing style. However characterized, the cumulative issues have annoyed me since August. For me, this has become intolerable; and fortunitously, someone suggested this forum might provide some movement towards a more palatable resolution than is otherwise likely.
Alternately, I'm too sensitive; but there you have it.
Whatever it is that is going on can't continue unaddressed.
I posted the following on User:Bueller 007's talk page and other places which arguably represent open threads:
Perhaps a good place to start is "my aching arse" and "plagaiarism" ... or maybe that's not the way to go. If I had any better ideas, I would have tried them out before resorting to this uncertain option. I don't quite know how to proceed here; and if this needs editing, I'll do whatever is called for.-- Tenmei ( talk) 22:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Withdrawal of request for assistance in this venue
In response to a question which I did not intend as rhetorical, I discovered that all I can likely hope to gain from
WP:WQA would be something as hollow, meaningless, and impractical as a reprimand. I myself have no fears of being slapped across knuckles with a ruler, and event he suggestion that I need to be concerned about such an odd prospect is troublesome; but worse still is the implication that there's nothing to be learned by anyone. That's pointless a priori. No, no, no -- I am only prepared to invest time in a complaint process which serves inform my future actions, my future responses to who-knows-what. In this context, what is to be made of the following:
The problems and opportunities of the present are wasted unless experience is used to ameliorate the unanticipated stumbling blocks which are inevitable in a joint-venture like Wikipedia. Now that I actually put the notion into words, it sounds too lofty; but there you have it.
I'll withdraw my complaint here and re-address my this problem with mediation. -- Tenmei ( talk) 20:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I fear that IrishGuy, an editor and administrator who contributes to List of zombie films has created an atmosphere in which it is difficult or impossible for others to contribute. He seems to show contempt for other users, and rarely feels the need to explain himself. People feel marginalised by the fact that he reverts almost any addition to the list, invents criteria for inclusion into the list, doesn’t feel the need to discuss his actions, and completely disregards consensus. I think the conversations here and here give a good idea of how IrishGuy’s unwillingness to communicate has effectively ended any contribution to the article. I understand that nobody’s perfect, and I myself have been slightly out of line at times in the article’s talk page (especially towards the beginning, I am still a relative Wikipedia novice). However, I think things have gone as far as they can at Talk: List of zombie films and I would appreciate any guidance. SaintCyprian Talk 04:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
SaintCyprian is also S0343463. As the talk page can attest...yes, he likes arguing. First he decided that Ghosts of Mars was a zombie film because... well he wanted it to be one. He blatantly admitted his entire argument was why couldn't the people being possessed by ghosts be called zombies? He also thinks his own opinion is consensus. I was called pedantic and my arument was far-fetched...which he later altered. Another editor added a non-notable direct-to-DVD film with the argument that this article should be a nice reference for a NetFlix queue. Of course, immediately S0343463 to make it a large discussion. IrishGuy talk 16:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
This user has had civility issue for a while. You can see at [18], [19], and [20], he has had hate against users, especially. Compwhizii. He seems to be discriminating against 13 year olds, getting mad at people for reverting his vandalism, and it doesn't stop. He does not seem to know Wikipedia policies, and is questioning them in the wrong places. He has claimed also to be a dynamic IP address, as seen here. I don't know if this user should be blocked, or just given a severe warning. Soxred93 | talk bot 23:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Mitrebox ( talk · contribs) recently came across the article Hungarian league system, which at the time was completely in Hungarian. This apparently prompted Mitrebox to ask "what forigen basterd wrote this crap". I told him that calling the author of the article, Codreanu ( talk · contribs), a "forigen basterd" constitutes a personal attack on a fellow Wikipedian. Mitrebox responded by asking "If you don't know who you're talking about how personal can a statement be? ... Technically and legally it's only a question, not a defamatory statement." I responded to this by stating "When you are asking the question "what forigen basterd wrote this crap", you are calling the author of the article a foreign bastard. That's a personal attack by any definition of the word, and no amount of Wikilawyering can change that." Mitrebox then accused me of a personal attack, saying "Please refrain from accusing your fellow Wikipedians of Wikilawyering. It is a instigative trolling statement and may be considered a personal attack." Aecis·(away) talk 15:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Mitrebox should've been more careful about this and an apology might be a good idea. However, since the person he was talking about clearly can't read english, there's no harm done, eh? What's the point, here, of complaining about an edit summary by Mitrebox that Codreanu can't even read? Is somebody here planning on translating Mitrebox's edit summary into Hungarian, so that Codreanu can then flame in Hungarian on English Wikipedia?
Also, I looked into the matter and the article above, after this WP:WQA is over, should be speedy deleted. You see the content in the article that's all piped? It was added by a user with an unapproved bot, adding obscure European athletes to Wikipedia. [24] An article added that ISN'T in English, containing content that was added by an unapproved bot -- Mitrebox has some reason to be upset over the horribly low quality of Wikipedia. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I think this can be closed, as Mitrebox has been blocked "until assurances are made that malicious bots will not be used". -- Ronz ( talk) 18:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Huaiwei is not respecting WP:CONSENSUS on Certis CISCO. There was a dispute between two users, and a third opinion was called in. The third editor gave an opinion that Huaiwei did not agree with, which ended in an argument. The head editor of one of the Wikiprojects under which the article falls - and an administrator - also gave an opinion agreeing with one of the original editors and third editor. Despite this consensus, Huaiwei remains defiant and is still reverting edits, the latest with edit text of "no due consideration for concerns raised." Discussion is on Talk:Certis CISCO#Incidents section. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I, along with several other users, are having some problems at trying to get through to this user. He is on a rant about a policy that has been established on Wikipedia is in being very rude and uncivil about it. He has taken parts of a conversation with another individual and used in on his talk page as a way to attack the other user. Some other opinions would be nice. Grsz11 ( talk) 02:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Recently, I edited the article Moldovans, where I corrected a spelling error in version that User:Constantzeanu did not like. Consequently, Constantzeanu reverted both the version and the revision, and attributed both to me. His edit summary, you will note, accuses me of "vandalism". I was upset by his behavior, especially given that Constantzeanu has a history of doing such things, and especially since his version misinterpreted a source and used bad English. I left a message on his talk page, indicating my strong objection to what he was doing. I then left a second message, telling him that he could have tackled the problem in another manner, and even suggesting to him an approach that would have been validated by wikipedia guidelines (i.e.: cite a source that contests the source instead of adding original research about the source).
He replied to neither message until earlier today. His reply was in Romanian: "da, merci bai tigane :))". It translates as "yes, thank you, you Gypsy".
To begin with, I am not a Rom, nor have I suggested that I am. I am a member of the WikiProject Romani people, and I have written articles that have to do with Romani culture, and I did express my disgust at all attempts to discriminate against Romani people. But I never did imply that I am a Rom myself, and I suspect that someone identifying me as such on the basis of my edits is not editing in good faith. Reason why just addressing me in this way is as an attempt to brand me. This, I do believe, fits the description of two kinds of personal attacks. One is: "Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse." The other: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream."
Moreover, as Constantzeanu and all other Romanian-speakers know, both Romanian and English attach negative connotations to the term ţigan/"Gypsy". In Romanian especially, because: 1) the word is an exonym which traces its origin to athiganoi (used for a group of heretics); 2) in common language, it has gained a most unfortunate use as an epithet for "persons with bad habits" (Epitet dat unei persoane cu apucături rele - one of the main uses of the word as recorded by the Romanian equivalent of Webster's). I presume that these ambiguities were intended in Constantzeanu's message - as I have said, users who speak Romanian know all about these demeaning connotations. Members of the Rom community have rejected the term for years now, while the nationalist and racist groups in Romania use only this term when referring to the Romani community - I suppose this too is well-known to Constantzeanu.
Constantzeanu's block log comprises an impressive number of blocks received for incivility, edit warring, and use of sockpuppets. This should clarify that Constantzeanu has received plenty of warning, and knows what is and is not accepted on wikipedia. In fact, the log also proves that Constantzeanu is familiar with the problems posed by the terms he used, as one of his blocks involves edits made on the Roma people page. Other blocks were received for edit warring on precisely the article that sparked this here controversy. Dahn ( talk) 23:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Dahn, I would recommend no longer engaging in such length discussion with Constantzeanu. If he seems uninterested in engaging in a dialog regarding his conduct or behavior, it's best not to go on at length - a short warning will suffice, and there is no need to reply to any unconstructive or inappropriate responses. -- Cheeser1 ( talk) 01:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
After reviewing the edits of both parties involved, I will go on note that Constantzeanu ( talk · contribs) has had a history of not rampant incivility, but 3RR vios and block evasions with the use of sock puppets. The last block was for two months, which indicates that Constantzeanu hasn't learned his/her lesson, and that any future violations will only add more time to the meter, so to speak. We can't keep giving these trolling accounts indefinite chances to correct their behaviour, and I would fully support an extended block if this abuse continues. I've left a note on their talk page regarding this. seicer | talk | contribs 02:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of correcting my spelling error (yo->you) (thank you Chesser for that), look at the corresponding revert. I've already reverted it based on stalking by Netkinetic, who has had no prior interaction in WQA or with the user. Come on -- is it really refactoring a comment to change the meaning when you are correcting a spelling mistake? seicer | talk | contribs 05:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. I will not comment here on the behavior of Constantzeanu and/or Dahn. I just want to say that the word "Tigan" is not a racial slur, as Dahn pretends. The word "tigan", which Dahn translates with "Gypsy" is the traditional Romanian name for the Roma people, as shown by the official Romanian dictionaries found online at http://dexonline.ro . The use of "Roma" instead of "Tigan" is recent, as is usually restrained to minority rights organizations and some official documents written under the pressure of such organizations. The word "Rom" was inexistent in Romanian 20 years ago, and was introduced only after 1989. Dpotop ( talk) 08:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC) I am writing this because I am sick with "Minority rights" money-hungry NGOs do nothing (in Romania) but promote stupid changes in vocabulary when the real problems of the Roma minority are elsewhere. These guys imagine that saying "Roma" instead of "Tigan" will somehow change the sordid public image of the Roma people. Well, it didn't work in the US for "afro-americans", which still fill up the prisons because there's discrimination against them, even though the name changed 2 or 3 times in 50 years. I don't see why it would give better results for Romanian Roma. After all, we could call them Indian Romanians. :) Dpotop ( talk) 09:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC) And, of course, I just wait for the Gypsy Kings and Romanian "Lautari tigani" to change for "Roma Kings" and "Lautari romi" before they ask everybody replace one word with another. Dpotop ( talk) 09:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC) BTW, Dahn, if you look for the actual racial slur, it's "cioara" ( crow). You can find it on dexonline. Dpotop ( talk) 09:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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This comment in response to a good faith argument in a content dispute between myself and this editor seems to be lacking somewhat in Wikiquette. While I am fortunate enough to not care what someone I'm in a content dispute thinks of me personally this type of behavior should be discouraged. (I'd do that myself, but being in a content dispute with this person means they aren't likely to listen to advice about Wikiquette from me.) Anynobody 05:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, I appreciate your help :) Anynobody 01:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
An editor called One Night In Hackney has persistently reverted a specific edit I have made to an article, claiming one of three things: that I am experimenting, adding incorrect information, or vandalising. I have informed him on more than one occasion that I am doing none of the things he has accused me of. He has threatened me with being 'blocked'.
What gives this sole editor the right to dictate to me what is 'right' or 'wrong' or to accuse me of vandalism and threaten to block me as a result of what he sees as 'vandalism'?
Please see my allocated talk/discussion page to follow the discussion thus far on the issue.
Thanks in advance. -- 90.203.247.219 ( talk) 22:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This user is constantly leaving me messages on my talk page. I left just one on his that said "do not message me unless you have something constructive to say." Despite this, he has left me two more messages, and one was (ha!) to warn ME about being uncivil. This is uncalled for (and quite ridiculous) — I can't see how I'm being rude by not replying to him.
He needs to be warned. I'm tired of these pointless messages. Timneu22 ( talk) 05:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
This person was very aggressive and appears to not have bothered reading the talk discussion in the Concorde article. This person threatened me with blocking and saying I am vandalizing the article on my personal talk page. Editors were reverting my edits while I was trying to fix a problem. I described what had been going on in the talk area and how I had misidentified a tag as being visible in the article (though it actually wasn't), which was what started the whole thing, with me at least. There was a simple fix which another editor did after reading the talk page which solved the problem. This User:Wolfkeeper antagonized the situation. If Wolfkeeper is an administrator then there should be action taken for administrators should not abuse their authority. UB65 ( talk) 09:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I think this user is trolling now. I don't know what the problem is but could an admin please speak to this user. I am being accused of things and I have tried to explain but to no avail. There is a real problem with this person. UB65 ( talk) 10:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Wolfkeeper continued to make personal attacks in the talk thread and I think may be guilty of 3rr revert violation though I didn't actually think this until after reading User's complaint on me accusing me of violating 3RR which I don't think I did but if I did it was not intentional. I really need help with this. It basically is an experienced user bullying a less experienced user and is very trying for me. I have tried to discuss this civilly and to no avail. I really need some advice and help with this person's behavior. UB65 ( talk) 11:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Ronz posted the following at my Talk, here; my response is appended. I'm posting it here on account of an ongoing feud; I claim it is uncivil for him to continue posting at my Talk page when I have asked him not to. I'm happy to debate him, but I believe he moves the debates to my talk to evade oversight by third parties. In this particular case, it's a good question that deserves an answer; I can't answer at my talk (because he is not welcome to post anything at my talk) but it would be inopportune to copy the question with my answer to the article, because it's from a noticeboard that wants to stay on-topic. (Of course if anyone objected to my language there, I would answer there; I just don't want to digress there myself.) In the indicated link, a complaint is made against ScienceApologist for uncivil conduct. SA is generally civil to me, but I discern a discrepancy in too much lattitude for uncivil conduct against "anti-science" editors, while the same cabal hypocritically whines when harsh language is directed to them. Just once I would like to see Ronz criticise SA for incivility, or SA criticise Ronz for evading specifics. Pete St.John ( talk) 20:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Please consider refactoring
The previous wikiquette alert, which I had brought directly, is this diff; the only comment was that it was too complex, so I created an RFC referring to the WQA; which never got any comments at all, and timed out. Pete St.John ( talk) 21:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
From Ronz's talk just now:
notification
[this WQA] moved from my talk Pete St.John (talk) 20:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ouch! Thrown into the briar patch! --Ronz (talk) 20:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sure. This isn't about me winning the arguement. This is about ethics. Not wikipolicy, and not winning, but about ethics. Go ahead and bring widespread attention to my excesses. Just STOP POSTING ON MY TALK. Not because an admin will force you; far from it. No admin will force you. Because it's ethical. Pete St.John (talk) 20:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The first part I posted as obligatory notification. I miscontrued his response as dialogue, and responded to it. As I said, I don't wish to evade debate with Ronz (or anyone); he is particularly (and knowingly) unwelcome at my talk. He's welcome to ignore me at his, and I'd be happy to not post there. He hadn't asked me not to, and I'm not sure that's the reason he reverted my answer. Pete St.John ( talk) 21:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The "discussion" with the admin who had earlier blocked me for Ronz, and which has the content "your incivility is obvious" (meaning me) is at this diff. Pete St.John ( talk) 16:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Ronz just posted this at my Talk (where he is unwelcome):
Purpose of user talk pages
A user talk page is the primary forum for discussions with and about the specific user. While users are given a great deal of latitude on how they manage their own talk pages, it is not for their personal use. See WP:UP#OWN and WP:OWN. -- Ronz ( talk) 17:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
(end copy). So I'll reply here:
No one clip from Ronz is by itself actionable. But the aggregate of his underhanded, eristic abuses is driving me nuts. Why would anybody want to drive me nuts? What does it gain them? I have month long debates with other editors; look at BrownHairedGirl. ScienceApologist. My talk page has been used for duplicitous insinuations and vapid claims and bad logic and everything else, so has everyone's, but they don't need to go to this uncivil excess to fight me. Why does Ronz? And what am I supposed to do about it? Pete St.John ( talk) 17:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Pete, like I said, if you think this qualifies as harassment, see WP:HAR (see step 2). But in terms of etiquette, there is a line, and that line needs to be crossed (or at least gamed). It doesn't seem that way. Your examples/questions are interesting, but they are hypothetical. We deal with incidents as they happen, and we can't do that by instead examining these hypothetical situations. Although I will comment that one of your examples is clearly abuse of a bot. -- Cheeser1 ( talk) 22:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
After vandalizing Wikipedia pages and my userpage, User talk:99.235.43.93 is on his third block, this time for a week. Despite being warned about removing notices from talk pages, he continues to do so, and he also adds strange notices to his talk page like "Starbucks has bad coffee". Now he is resorting to personal attacks on his talk page, and after denying that he did any vandalism, now is saying that I deserved it when he vandalized my userpage. Because of the complex edits he makes to templates, it is obvious that he is actually an experienced user. Maybe we can file for Checkuser? Another IP address, User talk:24.36.9.241, which is also been associated with vandalism on the same pages at the same time, is now also making personal attacks on User talk:99.235.43.93. The IP address User talk:24.36.9.241 is most likely a friend that User talk:99.235.43.93 recruited to help him out with the vandalism, and make the personal attakcs. Please extend block for both users and protect talk pages. Thank you. (If you have to respond to me for anything, please do so on my talk page. Thanks!) DiligentTerrier and friends 20:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I am having some trouble with snowfire51 and JuJube. (please see their talk pages). I have asked them to stop calling me a troll and a sock but they contuine to do so. They are looking to get me blocked. Can someone please help. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GoneHH ( talk • contribs) 06:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Not true. PLease see your talk page. I have corrected mistakes on the city of Belleville page and you changed them without checking. I am not a sock or a troll so stop. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
GoneHH (
talk •
contribs) 06:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
how about we check the info that I added!!! IF it is correct should it not stay? IN anycase, being called a sock and a troll for hours because I changed one page is not nice. I have no problem with snowfire51 or anyone else on wiki. I ask that I be treated in a friedly manner. That is all. Thank you for your help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GoneHH ( talk • contribs) 06:47, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone whose first edits include a bad faith assumption and sockpuppet-like activity (along with the removal of comments) will draw the watchful eye of at least one interested party. In addition, reverting the edits of varying users with no explanation or discussion will draw the ire of many. seicer | talk | contribs 13:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Following two previous postings on this page here and here, both of which were resolved in my favour, I am having further trouble with user Cebactokpatop, repeatedly (falsely) calling me a liar, and threatening to report me to WP:3RR (which I have not broken) if I do not revert edits 'within 15 minutes' [26]. Seminarist ( talk) 16:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I gotta say to both Cebactokpatop and Seminarist, your edit summaries give the appearance that you are both single issue/topic editors, and I'd suggest you both take a look at WP:TEND for some guidance. Religion and faith traditions are notoriously difficult areas in which to edit, and civility is even more important in this context than anwhere else on Wikipedia. That being said, and without having spent enough time to dig deep here, my first impression is that Cebactokpatop needs to take the previous advice more seriously, and really should not ever comment about the editor -- lose the "you" words is my advice, and don't threaten people or issue ultimatums. As difficult as it may be, you really need to be civil. Seminarist, are you making sure that you are hearing Cebactokpatop's concerns fully? Clearly Cebactokpatop is going too far, but can you do anything at all at your end to turn down the heat? Take my two-cents worth for what it's worth, and peace to both of you. WNDL42 ( talk) 03:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Help would be welcome at Talk:Paul Tillich. Article development has completely halted due to disruption by this single purpose account editor who wants the theologian Paul Tillich to be described as "an atheist". The consensus is that this is unsupported by sources, is a breach of WP:SOAP, and is based on original research - particularly this user's personal synthesis of primary sources (in clear breach of WP:PSTS). Excessively long postings are also proving obstructive. Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 04:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Saul Tillich Replies: The above posts are full of false accusations.
1. I am accused of "Modification of another editor's Talk page comment to change the meaning." This never happened. The only modification I ever made was to capitalize the first word of a sentence in a paragraph I was replying to. You will note that the accuser avoids before-and-after specifics.
2. "Blanking article without explanation is another problem." I have repeatedly explained in earlier edits that the material was being deleted because it was false -- essentially the same reason Anastrophe and others are deleting my edits, which they regard as false.
3. "There are clear cases of not only incivility, but a personal attack and bad faith assumptions." The personal attacks and bad faith assumptions come from the other side. I have repeatedly been accused of vandalism and bad faith. Specifically, I was accused of "attempting to discredit" Tillich. (Apparently the accusers think that calling Tillich an atheist discredits him, despite the fact that many interpreters and three encyclopedia articles have said, either explicitly or in effect [by calling him a pantheist], that Tillich is an atheist.) I am not trying to discredit Tillich, and neither do I believe that calling him an atheist discredits him. Does calling Hegel and Sartre and Nietzsche atheists discredit them? My accusers should be censored for bad faith and personal attacks.
4. My accusers have not only engaged in personal attacks on me, they have engaged in personal attacks on my primary source (Wheat). In the process, they have engaged in ad hominem argument -- attempting to discredit a person rather than the argument with which they disagree. In the process, the accuser reverted to sarcasm, a form of uncivil behavior, which is the very thing he accuses me of.
5. My arguments on the talk page are well supported by quotations from Tillich and other sources and by logic. Those who disagree with me have been unable to either support their own arguments with either quotations or logic. Instead, they choose to accuse me of "vandalism," "uncivil behavior," and personal attacks. This is simply a renewal of their earlier ad hominem argument -- attacking the opponent rather than his arguments.
6. Speaking of civility, Anastrophe wrote on Talk that "my good will is utterly spent in dealing with your poisonous methods. i did not remove your comments from this talk page. period." My reply (available on the talk page) was this: "Well, somebody deleted my refutation of the question-and-answer interpretation of Tillich's method of correlation. I assumed, apparently erroneously (and on the basis of your previously having impugned my motives), that it was you. I'll take your word for that it wasn't you; perhaps it was Gordon. In any case, I apologize for the hasty assumption." Meanwhile, whereas I am accused of editing the talk comments of others, something I haven't done, the others (or one of them) have actually deleted the evidence I presented that their article's interpretation of Tillich's "method of correlation" is wrong. And then they claim, falsely, that I have not given reasons for my deletion/edits.
7. The accusers repeat above what Anastrophe falsely said, and that I previously refuted, in the earlier Talk page that he archived: "The consensus is that this is unsupported by sources, is a breach of WP:SOAP, and is based on original research - particularly this user's personal synthesis of primary sources (in clear breach of WP:PSTS)." If they didn't know this statement was false when they made it earlier, they knew it when they repeated it on this page. My refutation was that this so-called "original research" is not at all original. As I said on the archived Talk page, Wheat's thesis that Tillich's "God above God" is humanity has been around for 38 years, ever since his book was published by Johns Hopkins Press in 1970. There is no "personal synthesis of primary sources." Wheat provided the synthesis and the quotations. After checking the quotations against the primary sources for accuracy (they were all accurate), I used them in the article, citing the primary sources, which should always be cited when possible. The only thing original in my first-cut (and admittedly too long) article was a count (taken from indexes of Tillich's books) of the numbers of times Tillich referred to Hegel, Kant, Schelling, and Marx -- philosophers to whom Wheat attributes the origin of Tillich's concept that God is man. I acknowledged that these counts were original and deleted them.
8. "I can't see how the article can be developed while this editor's activities are unchecked. Discussion is proving useless: try working from sources, but whatever they say, the guy simply writes some obscure personal gloss of their meaning." I can make the same accusation: I can't see how an accurate article can be developed while these accusers' activities are unchecked. Discussion is proving useless. The accusers are unable to refute my arguments or my evidence (primarily quotations from Tillich). Instead they resort to the personal attacks you see on this page. As for the "obscure gloss" refuting their articles versions of (1) Tillich's "norm" and (2) Tillich's method of correlation, I invite you to undelete my article and read what I say about these two topics. Then ask yourself, is this "obscure gloss"? Or is "obscure gloss" name-calling?
9. Regarding my saying that Tillich is an atheist, my accusers write that "the consensus is that this is unsupported by sources." Actually, my conclusion is thoroughly supported by sources, which I gave. Here is what I replied on the talk page: "Your argument is false because my view that Tillich is an atheist is as mainstream as any other view. At least 12 interpreters have directly or indirectly labeled Tillich an atheist, sometimes by calling him a pantheist. These interpreters are Sidney Hook (1961), Walter Kaufmann (1961), David Freeman (1962), Kenneth Hamilton (1963), Alasdair M MacIntyre (1963), Bernard Martin (1963), John A. T. Robinson (1963), J. Heywood Thomas (1963), Guyton Hammond (1966), Nels Ferre (1966), William Rowe (1968), Leonard Wheat (1970). Several others have expressed uncertainty concerning whether Tillich is a theist. Now, how many interpreters can you name who have affirmed that Tillich believes in the God of theism?" The accusers failed to name even one interpreter who considers Tillich a theist, a believer in the traditional God of theism (although there are three or four such interpreters). I later added, again on the Talk page, three encyclopedia articles that treat Tillich as a pantheist, where pantheism is a form of atheism. And I still later added Nels F. S. Ferre's discription of his person-to-person questioning of Tillich which made it clear to Ferre that Tillich is an atheist. As for the idea that my accusers' "consensus" that Tillich is not an atheist makes their view correct, I would reply that (1) there once was a consensus that the earth if flat and that the sun revolves around the earth and (2) the consensus of interpreters -- the fifteen I named (including the encyclopedias) weight more heavily than the consensus of three poorly educated editors, who are unfamiliar with the Hegelian dialectical formulations on which Tillich's theology is based. (By poorly educated I am not referring to their college and apparent divinity school educations but to their lack of knowledge of the philosophies, particularly those of Hegel and Marx, on which Tillich's "philosophical theology" is based.) Saul Tillich ( talk) 00:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
10. With further regard to the issue of who is being "uncivil," I offer the latest exchange, wherein I am (a) once more accused of "vandalism" for the heinous act of deleting someone else's demonstrably false interpretation of Tillich's theology -- essentially what the accusers have been doing to my edits -- and (b) threatened with being blocked from Wiki editing if I do not block myself. Threats and accusations of "vandalism" clearly constitute uncivil behavior. Here is the exchange:
ANTONIO LOPEZ: The recent edit you made to Paul Tillich constitutes vandalism, and has been reverted. Please do not continue to vandalize pages; use the sandbox for testing. Thanks. Antonio Lopez (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC))
ANASTROPHE: Please stop. If you continue to blank out or delete portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did to Paul Tillich, you will be blocked from editing. Anastrophe (talk) 03:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Message for Anastrophe and His Colleagues: May I remind you, Mr. Anastrophe, that you are deleting my edits as often as I am deleting yours. Back in January you took pleasure in quoting to me the following: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." Well, just as you have been editing my work mercilessly, I am doing the same with yours, which I am entitled to do. I am deleting your false descriptions of Tillich's theology because they are false, and false material does not belong in Wiki. That is not vandalism; that is editing. Please do not "continue to blank out or delete portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did to Paul Tillich." In other words, stop blanking out and deleting portions of page content, templates, or other materials.
That you and your compatriots regard my article as "unconstructive" is irrelevant. I regard your work as unconstructive -- false and naive. In the talk discussion, you have never been able to support your position with quotations. Instead you use ad hominen argument and sarcasm. Worse, you dishonestly accuse me of attempting "do discredit Tillich," whereas I am doing no such thing. Your accusation seems to reflect a belief that, as a theologian, Tillich could not possibly be an atheist. In the process, you ignore the evidence I have presented that a very strong majority (not your "tiny minority") of Tillich's interpreters regard him as an atheist -- either a pantheist, a mystic, or a complete nonsupernaturalist. To base an article, as you are doing, on nothing but personal prejudice and a closed mind is the epitome of "unconstructive" behavior.
So come off your high horse, cut out this holier-than-thou nonsense, and accept the fact that I have as much right to edit as you do. Grow up, learn that people disagree on many things, and realize that disagreement does not constitute vandalism.Saul Tillich (talk) 23:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
BERIAN: This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Please read WP:COI and WP:POV, as I have tagged Paul Tillich. Bearian (talk) 23:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
11. Here's an attack I failed to respond to in my earlier enumerated points: "Personal attacks: "You are back to your old trick of basing your claims on nothing but imagination and preconceived opinions" ... "Anyone (meaning you) who does not understand the concept of atheism and thinks it is just an empty label should not be discussing theology."
That's a "personal attack"? That is an attack on an unsupported claim. Here is the exchange.
When a claim ("Tillich differentiates supernaturalism from theism," along with others before it, is made without any semblance of support -- no quotation from Tillich, no other evidence, no argument -- and when the author makes it clear that he simply can't believe Tillich was an atheist, then the assertion that the claim is based on imagination and preconceived opinion is justified. The preconceived opinion is readily inferred from the earlier charge that I am trying to discredit Tillich by calling him an atheist. Who would hold such a view? Answer: someone who thinks atheism is evil, who would certainly be a religious conservative, who is just the type of person who could not imagine that Tillich, Bultmann, Neibuhr, and Robinson could be atheists.
Here is the exchange associated with the second quoted remark:
I stand by what I wrote. It is not a personal attack. Anyone who thinks that atheism is just a simplistic and meaningless label should not be discussing theology. Atheism has a clear and widely accepted meaning: belief in the God of theism, the traditional Judeo-Christian God, a rational, self-conscious supernatural being. Saul Tillich ( talk) 04:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the hostility and incivility here is, as far as I can tell, due to a conflict of interest. I strongly suggest to Mr. Tillich that he refrain from editing an article about any member of his family. Furthermore, if he cannot amicably and productively contribute to the discussion page, I suggest he find an area of Wikipedia to which he might contribute productively and without a conflict of interest. I don't want to be too reductive here, but this issue is generating alot of conflict, and regardless of whether there is incivility, personal attacks, edit warring, whatever else, there is a problem, and that problem is stemming from issues that exist only because someone who really shouldn't be editing the article is doing so. WP:COI makes it clear that editing in this fashion can lead to blocks, and that may be warranted at this point. Mr. Tillich, what do you think of my suggesetion? -- Cheeser1 ( talk) 05:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
After trying to reign in some problematic comments made about me in various venues, Sumoeagle179 ( talk · contribs) made a personal attack against me [38]. I would like an apology. ScienceApologist ( talk) 18:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
In sum, there is a history of bad blood between myself and this user, and this incivility is unwarranted, especially since this user has taken it upon himself to try to "teach me" about civility:
ScienceApologist ( talk) 19:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
SA, this is not a personal attack. Tom Butler calling you a sociopath was a personal attack. This post from now-banned Matt Sanchez is a personal attack. I undersatnd that you are irritated (to put it mildly) by the gaming of the system arounf civility which some tendentious POV pushers enjoy, but I seriously doubt that trying to game the system in the same sort of way is a good idea - you don't have the temprement for it. I fear that you are ultimately going to offer enough evidence that will allow those gamers to win the battle and have you banned. Don't give them the satisfaction. Jay*Jay ( talk) 14:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's look to WP:CCC, and please let's respect those editors who are unable or unwilling to "ride" this article as tendentiously as many of us here have been doing -- including me. The best editors with the most reasonable and neutral POVs are continually being either (a) driven away, or (b) drowned out by our "noise", and the sum total of our behavior is tantamount to disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. I for one am not able or willing to "keep up". Wikipedia does not belong to the most tendentious partisans in any topic area, indeed the articles that result from the "winning" of such noisy arguments wind up being, in general, amongst the
worst crapleast encyclopedic articles found on Wikipedia. WNDL42 ( talk) 16:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyeverybody/Anynobody, where I come from, a negative comment becomes a PERSONAL ATTACK when the words "you", "your", "Yours" are introduced to direct the comment at a specific individual target, as SA did, and as I did not do. I'd assume that editors commenting here would be familiar with the basics of WP:NPA. Perhaps you'd care to review (a) Ad hominem, (b) Avoid personal remarks...specifically "if you have opinions about other contributors as people, they don't belong there — or frankly, anywhere on Wikipedia.". Note that SA expressed an "opinion" that I (personally and specifically) should leave the topic. Do you care to review these basics and then restate your unhelpful characterization above? WNDL42 ( talk) 18:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I keep being harrassed by user Gene Nygaard regarding the use of the defaultsort statement. To eliminate the dispute I have stopped using the defaultsort, but I keep getting agressive messages.
I don't understand what the issue is about. I am satisfied with the Wikipedia sorting and see no reason to change them. However I find it totally inappropriate for a user to set up new rules, which are nowhere indicated in prevailing guidelines and to force them upon other users.
I request help to stop these messages. Afil ( talk) 01:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
This editor has used abusive language towards me. Additionally, this editor continues to remove my edits to the Zangief page.
I have provided a valid reference for my edit, although this doesn't seem to concern this user.
Here's an example of what constitutes "talk" for this user.
You want to get blocked for the same crap you got blocked for before? Discuss it on the talk page, but it's pretty much certain you'll never get The Later Years on the page. JuJube (talk) 05:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This is not the way to begin a discussion with another Wikipedia editor.
Juju based on your recent edits [39] and here (and most of your edit summaries) it is recommended you read up on WP:BITE and WP:CIVIL. The issue on the Zangief article should be discussed on the talk page to try to reach consensus. Gtstricky Talk or C 14:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
In a "comment" on my talk page where a complaint that I had filed here against a now indefinitely blocked anti-semitic former editor was under discussion, Calton launched a gratuitous personal attack here. This attack is the latest in his abusive comments against me, ostensibly as a result of my having filed a successful case documenting the massive longstanding sockpuppetry of an editor he seemed to have been allied with, ( Griot). Calton had also had filed a bogus and disproven sockpuppetry case aginst me here This is at least the second time Calton, who seems to be stalking my activities, has made a gratuitous personal attack based on his vengeful attitude, rather than the topic at hand that he posts on. See, eg, here. I offered Calton the opportunity to provide evidence of his claims on my talk page, specifically, that I am:
He hasn't, so I need to report it here. Boodlesthecat ( talk) 21:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Boodles, but you've stepped in it now. No admin ever steps in against Calton, and the regular editors who complain about him usually end up being blocked in a questionable manner. You see above, how Calton twists everything around all the time to make herself look like she's the victim? As much as I hate to say it, you will never win, because she is so unpleasant that even admins are reluctant to admonish or *gasp* actually give her the block she sooooo much deserves. Walk away, man. Just walk away. Sorry. 24.220.220.117 ( talk) 02:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Calton, Groupthink was discovered and documented in the 1970's, what makes you think that Wikipedia would not be vulnerable as well? Hell, Wikipedia is a virtual nutrient rich petrie dish for Groupthink, why does my question seem like "bizarre theorizing" to you? It was just a question. If the shoe obviously won't fit, then don't try it on. WNDL42 ( talk) 03:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to have a serious discussion on some academic sources I brought forward
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Some_more_quotes_on_the_Assyrian_Genocide
And I don't think I should have to face this kind of disruptive editing. I am not sure what WP policy is wrt racism but I would be surprised if this weren't in violation of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Bias_problems
The only reason why you recognise the events as genocide is because you're Greek. Simple. Why wouldn't you? After all, the most patriotic Greek is also the most anti-Turkish one. I've met many Greeks in my life and they're all hostile towards me. What have I done to them? Nothing, yet Greeks still discriminate against me because I'm Turkish, and let me tell you that I've never EVER done the same to a Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Bias_problems
Think about it. Think hard and reflect. I get gagged by Greek people at school all the time whenever I try to defend myself about the whole Cyprus issue. The moment I start trying to defend myself, they just tell me to shut up because they're not interested in the other side of the story. Well I am, and the last thing I will put up with is people trying to shut me up and violate my freedom of speech. I WILL NOT ALLOW, and I repeat, WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO VIOLATE MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH by reporting me for stuff I haven't done, K?! I haven't done anything wrong to you whatsoever, so stop making fabricated accusations..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Some_more_quotes_on_the_Assyrian_Genocide
Dude, all you're doing is wasting your time and increasing the length of the situation even further. None of what you've copy-pasted has actually answered my question, so all this crap is still null and void.
The user is probably too young to know better so don't be too harsh. Just advise them on WP:EQ. Thank you. Xenovatis ( talk) 21:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Some help is requested with an IP editor who seems to be having difficulty communicating on Talk:Keratoconus. Their first to the article was an editorial comment. After multiple unsourced edits, their IP was blocked for vandalism. Blocking got their attention and they came to Talk:Keratoconus to discuss their edits. Discussion on that page seems to have broken down entirely and outside help would be much appreciated. IP editor involvement is in this thread beginning about 1 March (multiple IP are used and they don't sign their posts). Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 15:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Has added this to my user page, in retaliation for putting warning tags on his talk page due to vandalism of articles todo with anti-racism. I don't think this individual has any intent for valid contribution to wikipedia. -- Mista-X ( talk) 14:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
This person wrote unflattering info on Sunny Kim's Wikipedia site. For example, he wrote "Yo Mama" for his real name. -DANO- ( talk) 01:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello,
The "Denial of the Holodomor" article is now embroiled in controversy. There are three tags on the page, and it appears that the talk page has become polarized. Unfortunately, one editor makes comments like this [ [40]], and titles edit diffs "what is this crap?" [ [41]], and is ready to keep editing against consensus. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 20:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I strongly suggest you stop dragging out this dispute - both of you. If there are content issues, which is all this seems to be, I suggest you try to establish a consensus towards some version of the article that meets Wikipedia's core policies and is agreed upon by everyone. If you can't do that on your own, solicit a third opinion or submit a request for comment. -- Cheeser1 ( talk) 17:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
I am considering a formal complaint about ScienceApologist because of his comment at [1]. I am co-director of the AA-EVP [2] and an active researcher in the field of EVP/ITC. He knows I monitor the EVP article, and so I am assuming that he intended his comments to me and my fellow researchers as a personal insult. Alone, this event could be considered an editor having a bad day, but he has used the same tone many times and his active expression of this attitude in his edits has become an obstruction. I now believe the only remedy is to bar him from editing in the paranormal subjects. The offending quote is here:
ScienceApologist should play nice. Just because people believe in tape-recorder ghosts doesn't mean that you should be mean to them on WP. Tom, the article in question needs real, scholarly sources, not references to web sites and popular books. ScienceApologist would be justified in chopping out whole sections of it because they're not properly sourced. But if he does that, he should do it without insulting anyone. Leadwind ( talk) 01:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
My advice to you would be to not be so thin-skinned. I know ScienceApologist can be a bit difficult to deal with sometimes; I have tangled with him before. However, the most important thing here is to not worry about civility, but to produce reasonable articles. So try to work with SA to produce a reasonable NPOV article. And that means including the mainstream position in a substantial way, not trying to promote this as some sort of real phenomenon that is well documented. It is highly controversial, and it should be described as such.-- Filll ( talk) 01:38, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
WQA is for discussing civility, not content. SA's "Almost everyone who believes in this stuff is basically a moron or an absolute wacko..." has no place on Wikipedia under any circumstances whatsoever. Can't believe there's a "debate" over this. WNDL42 ( talk) 01:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
AAEVP is not quite good enough to source this. They make up all kinds of things at their website. What would be best is if we found someone who didn't believe in EVP reporting on the classification scheme (per WP:FRINGE#Independent sources). Barring that, if we could find one of the people mentioned in our article (like Raudive, for example) who used the classification scheme, at least that would be more authoritative than some website that Tom Butler made up one day. ScienceApologist ( talk) 16:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I see a lot of diversionary tactics going on here. SA, a simple and civil statement here to the effect that you regret that your statement was taken personally would probably suffice. The entirely civil discourse here about the issues with the sources, had it been conducted on the talk page instead of the incendiary and personally directed comments including "ridiculous" and "nonsense" and "moron" and "wacko" that you posted there, would have resulted in a much more effective use of everybody's time and would have prevented this WQA.
Also, a comment for those editors here attempting to justify SA's remark by contextualizing it...you are not helping. WNDL42 ( talk) 22:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Gee, it would be nice if someone would mention the filing to SA himself. I just posted a notice to get his side of the events. seicer | talk | contribs 02:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It is with regret I am putting a Wikiquette alert on a user. I think a better system would be where a Wikiquette alert is placed upon an article and the article is monitored for breaches of etiquette.
[8] and elsewhere.
I will not be making further edits to any of the related articles until a neutral 3rd party takes the articles under watch to ensure proper Wikiquette and Wikipedia policies are followed. BradMajors ( talk) 08:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Despite numerous requests, EliasAlucard, a proud member of the KKK Stormfront [http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4968410&postcount=10 forum], seems unable to control his obsessive posting of anti-Semitic claptrap, particularly on the Kevin Macdonald talk page. See e.g., here and here. I'm more than accustomed to having to wade through various editors opinions all over WP talk pages, but exactly how much Jew-hating bile must one put up with from this bigot?
Despite having brought this to AN/I, EliasAlucard continues with his rants, the most recent [13] where this Stormfront member reassures us "that doesn't mean I want all Jews to be killed or anything. All I'm saying, is that they should be criticised so that they can improve themselves" and that Jews "simply need to knock it off with all this warmongering and start realising that criticism can be valuable. In other words, all Jews, "get your shit together" and we can live in a better world."
Besides the flagrant violation of WP:TALK's barring of using Talk Pages for airing personal opinions, this user has leveled a number of anti-Semitic attacks against me including:
Tells me to keep my "pro-Jewish" views out of an article:
And more Jew-baiting of me:
And defends his anti-Semitism and membership in the Jew-hating Storfront forum:
And this particularly vile rationalization for his antiSemitic rantings:
" here: If Jews like Alon Ziv wouldn't be promoting miscegenation for gentiles (and they never promote miscegenation for Jews, of course) like it was the next best thing, people like Kevin MacDonald would have no case against them, and people wouldn't have a problem with Jews, and people like me wouldn't be posting on Stormfront complaining about it"
It's nauseating to have to wade through this users slime to compile this. this needs to stop. Now. Boodlesthecat ( talk) 03:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
This user certainly seems to have a bee in his bonnet about the Jews. I remember removing [14] a long and pointless debate from the Armenian genocide talk page, which had started with him proffering the allegation that the Jews might have been behind that event (on the basis of some crank claims off the Net). -- Folantin ( talk) 12:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Unsubstantiated accusation of trolling here [16] see last comment bogdan (talk) 01:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC) -- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♣♥♦ 01:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Isn't that trolling? bogdan ( talk) 01:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 04:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
At a minimum, this problem involves what can charitably be construed as an abrasive editing style. However characterized, the cumulative issues have annoyed me since August. For me, this has become intolerable; and fortunitously, someone suggested this forum might provide some movement towards a more palatable resolution than is otherwise likely.
Alternately, I'm too sensitive; but there you have it.
Whatever it is that is going on can't continue unaddressed.
I posted the following on User:Bueller 007's talk page and other places which arguably represent open threads:
Perhaps a good place to start is "my aching arse" and "plagaiarism" ... or maybe that's not the way to go. If I had any better ideas, I would have tried them out before resorting to this uncertain option. I don't quite know how to proceed here; and if this needs editing, I'll do whatever is called for.-- Tenmei ( talk) 22:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Withdrawal of request for assistance in this venue
In response to a question which I did not intend as rhetorical, I discovered that all I can likely hope to gain from
WP:WQA would be something as hollow, meaningless, and impractical as a reprimand. I myself have no fears of being slapped across knuckles with a ruler, and event he suggestion that I need to be concerned about such an odd prospect is troublesome; but worse still is the implication that there's nothing to be learned by anyone. That's pointless a priori. No, no, no -- I am only prepared to invest time in a complaint process which serves inform my future actions, my future responses to who-knows-what. In this context, what is to be made of the following:
The problems and opportunities of the present are wasted unless experience is used to ameliorate the unanticipated stumbling blocks which are inevitable in a joint-venture like Wikipedia. Now that I actually put the notion into words, it sounds too lofty; but there you have it.
I'll withdraw my complaint here and re-address my this problem with mediation. -- Tenmei ( talk) 20:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I fear that IrishGuy, an editor and administrator who contributes to List of zombie films has created an atmosphere in which it is difficult or impossible for others to contribute. He seems to show contempt for other users, and rarely feels the need to explain himself. People feel marginalised by the fact that he reverts almost any addition to the list, invents criteria for inclusion into the list, doesn’t feel the need to discuss his actions, and completely disregards consensus. I think the conversations here and here give a good idea of how IrishGuy’s unwillingness to communicate has effectively ended any contribution to the article. I understand that nobody’s perfect, and I myself have been slightly out of line at times in the article’s talk page (especially towards the beginning, I am still a relative Wikipedia novice). However, I think things have gone as far as they can at Talk: List of zombie films and I would appreciate any guidance. SaintCyprian Talk 04:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
SaintCyprian is also S0343463. As the talk page can attest...yes, he likes arguing. First he decided that Ghosts of Mars was a zombie film because... well he wanted it to be one. He blatantly admitted his entire argument was why couldn't the people being possessed by ghosts be called zombies? He also thinks his own opinion is consensus. I was called pedantic and my arument was far-fetched...which he later altered. Another editor added a non-notable direct-to-DVD film with the argument that this article should be a nice reference for a NetFlix queue. Of course, immediately S0343463 to make it a large discussion. IrishGuy talk 16:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
This user has had civility issue for a while. You can see at [18], [19], and [20], he has had hate against users, especially. Compwhizii. He seems to be discriminating against 13 year olds, getting mad at people for reverting his vandalism, and it doesn't stop. He does not seem to know Wikipedia policies, and is questioning them in the wrong places. He has claimed also to be a dynamic IP address, as seen here. I don't know if this user should be blocked, or just given a severe warning. Soxred93 | talk bot 23:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Mitrebox ( talk · contribs) recently came across the article Hungarian league system, which at the time was completely in Hungarian. This apparently prompted Mitrebox to ask "what forigen basterd wrote this crap". I told him that calling the author of the article, Codreanu ( talk · contribs), a "forigen basterd" constitutes a personal attack on a fellow Wikipedian. Mitrebox responded by asking "If you don't know who you're talking about how personal can a statement be? ... Technically and legally it's only a question, not a defamatory statement." I responded to this by stating "When you are asking the question "what forigen basterd wrote this crap", you are calling the author of the article a foreign bastard. That's a personal attack by any definition of the word, and no amount of Wikilawyering can change that." Mitrebox then accused me of a personal attack, saying "Please refrain from accusing your fellow Wikipedians of Wikilawyering. It is a instigative trolling statement and may be considered a personal attack." Aecis·(away) talk 15:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Mitrebox should've been more careful about this and an apology might be a good idea. However, since the person he was talking about clearly can't read english, there's no harm done, eh? What's the point, here, of complaining about an edit summary by Mitrebox that Codreanu can't even read? Is somebody here planning on translating Mitrebox's edit summary into Hungarian, so that Codreanu can then flame in Hungarian on English Wikipedia?
Also, I looked into the matter and the article above, after this WP:WQA is over, should be speedy deleted. You see the content in the article that's all piped? It was added by a user with an unapproved bot, adding obscure European athletes to Wikipedia. [24] An article added that ISN'T in English, containing content that was added by an unapproved bot -- Mitrebox has some reason to be upset over the horribly low quality of Wikipedia. ☯ Zenwhat ( talk) 00:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I think this can be closed, as Mitrebox has been blocked "until assurances are made that malicious bots will not be used". -- Ronz ( talk) 18:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Huaiwei is not respecting WP:CONSENSUS on Certis CISCO. There was a dispute between two users, and a third opinion was called in. The third editor gave an opinion that Huaiwei did not agree with, which ended in an argument. The head editor of one of the Wikiprojects under which the article falls - and an administrator - also gave an opinion agreeing with one of the original editors and third editor. Despite this consensus, Huaiwei remains defiant and is still reverting edits, the latest with edit text of "no due consideration for concerns raised." Discussion is on Talk:Certis CISCO#Incidents section. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I, along with several other users, are having some problems at trying to get through to this user. He is on a rant about a policy that has been established on Wikipedia is in being very rude and uncivil about it. He has taken parts of a conversation with another individual and used in on his talk page as a way to attack the other user. Some other opinions would be nice. Grsz11 ( talk) 02:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Recently, I edited the article Moldovans, where I corrected a spelling error in version that User:Constantzeanu did not like. Consequently, Constantzeanu reverted both the version and the revision, and attributed both to me. His edit summary, you will note, accuses me of "vandalism". I was upset by his behavior, especially given that Constantzeanu has a history of doing such things, and especially since his version misinterpreted a source and used bad English. I left a message on his talk page, indicating my strong objection to what he was doing. I then left a second message, telling him that he could have tackled the problem in another manner, and even suggesting to him an approach that would have been validated by wikipedia guidelines (i.e.: cite a source that contests the source instead of adding original research about the source).
He replied to neither message until earlier today. His reply was in Romanian: "da, merci bai tigane :))". It translates as "yes, thank you, you Gypsy".
To begin with, I am not a Rom, nor have I suggested that I am. I am a member of the WikiProject Romani people, and I have written articles that have to do with Romani culture, and I did express my disgust at all attempts to discriminate against Romani people. But I never did imply that I am a Rom myself, and I suspect that someone identifying me as such on the basis of my edits is not editing in good faith. Reason why just addressing me in this way is as an attempt to brand me. This, I do believe, fits the description of two kinds of personal attacks. One is: "Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse." The other: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream."
Moreover, as Constantzeanu and all other Romanian-speakers know, both Romanian and English attach negative connotations to the term ţigan/"Gypsy". In Romanian especially, because: 1) the word is an exonym which traces its origin to athiganoi (used for a group of heretics); 2) in common language, it has gained a most unfortunate use as an epithet for "persons with bad habits" (Epitet dat unei persoane cu apucături rele - one of the main uses of the word as recorded by the Romanian equivalent of Webster's). I presume that these ambiguities were intended in Constantzeanu's message - as I have said, users who speak Romanian know all about these demeaning connotations. Members of the Rom community have rejected the term for years now, while the nationalist and racist groups in Romania use only this term when referring to the Romani community - I suppose this too is well-known to Constantzeanu.
Constantzeanu's block log comprises an impressive number of blocks received for incivility, edit warring, and use of sockpuppets. This should clarify that Constantzeanu has received plenty of warning, and knows what is and is not accepted on wikipedia. In fact, the log also proves that Constantzeanu is familiar with the problems posed by the terms he used, as one of his blocks involves edits made on the Roma people page. Other blocks were received for edit warring on precisely the article that sparked this here controversy. Dahn ( talk) 23:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Dahn, I would recommend no longer engaging in such length discussion with Constantzeanu. If he seems uninterested in engaging in a dialog regarding his conduct or behavior, it's best not to go on at length - a short warning will suffice, and there is no need to reply to any unconstructive or inappropriate responses. -- Cheeser1 ( talk) 01:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
After reviewing the edits of both parties involved, I will go on note that Constantzeanu ( talk · contribs) has had a history of not rampant incivility, but 3RR vios and block evasions with the use of sock puppets. The last block was for two months, which indicates that Constantzeanu hasn't learned his/her lesson, and that any future violations will only add more time to the meter, so to speak. We can't keep giving these trolling accounts indefinite chances to correct their behaviour, and I would fully support an extended block if this abuse continues. I've left a note on their talk page regarding this. seicer | talk | contribs 02:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Speaking of correcting my spelling error (yo->you) (thank you Chesser for that), look at the corresponding revert. I've already reverted it based on stalking by Netkinetic, who has had no prior interaction in WQA or with the user. Come on -- is it really refactoring a comment to change the meaning when you are correcting a spelling mistake? seicer | talk | contribs 05:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Extended content
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. I will not comment here on the behavior of Constantzeanu and/or Dahn. I just want to say that the word "Tigan" is not a racial slur, as Dahn pretends. The word "tigan", which Dahn translates with "Gypsy" is the traditional Romanian name for the Roma people, as shown by the official Romanian dictionaries found online at http://dexonline.ro . The use of "Roma" instead of "Tigan" is recent, as is usually restrained to minority rights organizations and some official documents written under the pressure of such organizations. The word "Rom" was inexistent in Romanian 20 years ago, and was introduced only after 1989. Dpotop ( talk) 08:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC) I am writing this because I am sick with "Minority rights" money-hungry NGOs do nothing (in Romania) but promote stupid changes in vocabulary when the real problems of the Roma minority are elsewhere. These guys imagine that saying "Roma" instead of "Tigan" will somehow change the sordid public image of the Roma people. Well, it didn't work in the US for "afro-americans", which still fill up the prisons because there's discrimination against them, even though the name changed 2 or 3 times in 50 years. I don't see why it would give better results for Romanian Roma. After all, we could call them Indian Romanians. :) Dpotop ( talk) 09:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC) And, of course, I just wait for the Gypsy Kings and Romanian "Lautari tigani" to change for "Roma Kings" and "Lautari romi" before they ask everybody replace one word with another. Dpotop ( talk) 09:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC) BTW, Dahn, if you look for the actual racial slur, it's "cioara" ( crow). You can find it on dexonline. Dpotop ( talk) 09:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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This comment in response to a good faith argument in a content dispute between myself and this editor seems to be lacking somewhat in Wikiquette. While I am fortunate enough to not care what someone I'm in a content dispute thinks of me personally this type of behavior should be discouraged. (I'd do that myself, but being in a content dispute with this person means they aren't likely to listen to advice about Wikiquette from me.) Anynobody 05:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, I appreciate your help :) Anynobody 01:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
An editor called One Night In Hackney has persistently reverted a specific edit I have made to an article, claiming one of three things: that I am experimenting, adding incorrect information, or vandalising. I have informed him on more than one occasion that I am doing none of the things he has accused me of. He has threatened me with being 'blocked'.
What gives this sole editor the right to dictate to me what is 'right' or 'wrong' or to accuse me of vandalism and threaten to block me as a result of what he sees as 'vandalism'?
Please see my allocated talk/discussion page to follow the discussion thus far on the issue.
Thanks in advance. -- 90.203.247.219 ( talk) 22:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This user is constantly leaving me messages on my talk page. I left just one on his that said "do not message me unless you have something constructive to say." Despite this, he has left me two more messages, and one was (ha!) to warn ME about being uncivil. This is uncalled for (and quite ridiculous) — I can't see how I'm being rude by not replying to him.
He needs to be warned. I'm tired of these pointless messages. Timneu22 ( talk) 05:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
This person was very aggressive and appears to not have bothered reading the talk discussion in the Concorde article. This person threatened me with blocking and saying I am vandalizing the article on my personal talk page. Editors were reverting my edits while I was trying to fix a problem. I described what had been going on in the talk area and how I had misidentified a tag as being visible in the article (though it actually wasn't), which was what started the whole thing, with me at least. There was a simple fix which another editor did after reading the talk page which solved the problem. This User:Wolfkeeper antagonized the situation. If Wolfkeeper is an administrator then there should be action taken for administrators should not abuse their authority. UB65 ( talk) 09:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I think this user is trolling now. I don't know what the problem is but could an admin please speak to this user. I am being accused of things and I have tried to explain but to no avail. There is a real problem with this person. UB65 ( talk) 10:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
User:Wolfkeeper continued to make personal attacks in the talk thread and I think may be guilty of 3rr revert violation though I didn't actually think this until after reading User's complaint on me accusing me of violating 3RR which I don't think I did but if I did it was not intentional. I really need help with this. It basically is an experienced user bullying a less experienced user and is very trying for me. I have tried to discuss this civilly and to no avail. I really need some advice and help with this person's behavior. UB65 ( talk) 11:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Ronz posted the following at my Talk, here; my response is appended. I'm posting it here on account of an ongoing feud; I claim it is uncivil for him to continue posting at my Talk page when I have asked him not to. I'm happy to debate him, but I believe he moves the debates to my talk to evade oversight by third parties. In this particular case, it's a good question that deserves an answer; I can't answer at my talk (because he is not welcome to post anything at my talk) but it would be inopportune to copy the question with my answer to the article, because it's from a noticeboard that wants to stay on-topic. (Of course if anyone objected to my language there, I would answer there; I just don't want to digress there myself.) In the indicated link, a complaint is made against ScienceApologist for uncivil conduct. SA is generally civil to me, but I discern a discrepancy in too much lattitude for uncivil conduct against "anti-science" editors, while the same cabal hypocritically whines when harsh language is directed to them. Just once I would like to see Ronz criticise SA for incivility, or SA criticise Ronz for evading specifics. Pete St.John ( talk) 20:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Please consider refactoring
The previous wikiquette alert, which I had brought directly, is this diff; the only comment was that it was too complex, so I created an RFC referring to the WQA; which never got any comments at all, and timed out. Pete St.John ( talk) 21:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
From Ronz's talk just now:
notification
[this WQA] moved from my talk Pete St.John (talk) 20:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ouch! Thrown into the briar patch! --Ronz (talk) 20:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sure. This isn't about me winning the arguement. This is about ethics. Not wikipolicy, and not winning, but about ethics. Go ahead and bring widespread attention to my excesses. Just STOP POSTING ON MY TALK. Not because an admin will force you; far from it. No admin will force you. Because it's ethical. Pete St.John (talk) 20:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The first part I posted as obligatory notification. I miscontrued his response as dialogue, and responded to it. As I said, I don't wish to evade debate with Ronz (or anyone); he is particularly (and knowingly) unwelcome at my talk. He's welcome to ignore me at his, and I'd be happy to not post there. He hadn't asked me not to, and I'm not sure that's the reason he reverted my answer. Pete St.John ( talk) 21:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The "discussion" with the admin who had earlier blocked me for Ronz, and which has the content "your incivility is obvious" (meaning me) is at this diff. Pete St.John ( talk) 16:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Ronz just posted this at my Talk (where he is unwelcome):
Purpose of user talk pages
A user talk page is the primary forum for discussions with and about the specific user. While users are given a great deal of latitude on how they manage their own talk pages, it is not for their personal use. See WP:UP#OWN and WP:OWN. -- Ronz ( talk) 17:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
(end copy). So I'll reply here:
No one clip from Ronz is by itself actionable. But the aggregate of his underhanded, eristic abuses is driving me nuts. Why would anybody want to drive me nuts? What does it gain them? I have month long debates with other editors; look at BrownHairedGirl. ScienceApologist. My talk page has been used for duplicitous insinuations and vapid claims and bad logic and everything else, so has everyone's, but they don't need to go to this uncivil excess to fight me. Why does Ronz? And what am I supposed to do about it? Pete St.John ( talk) 17:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Pete, like I said, if you think this qualifies as harassment, see WP:HAR (see step 2). But in terms of etiquette, there is a line, and that line needs to be crossed (or at least gamed). It doesn't seem that way. Your examples/questions are interesting, but they are hypothetical. We deal with incidents as they happen, and we can't do that by instead examining these hypothetical situations. Although I will comment that one of your examples is clearly abuse of a bot. -- Cheeser1 ( talk) 22:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
After vandalizing Wikipedia pages and my userpage, User talk:99.235.43.93 is on his third block, this time for a week. Despite being warned about removing notices from talk pages, he continues to do so, and he also adds strange notices to his talk page like "Starbucks has bad coffee". Now he is resorting to personal attacks on his talk page, and after denying that he did any vandalism, now is saying that I deserved it when he vandalized my userpage. Because of the complex edits he makes to templates, it is obvious that he is actually an experienced user. Maybe we can file for Checkuser? Another IP address, User talk:24.36.9.241, which is also been associated with vandalism on the same pages at the same time, is now also making personal attacks on User talk:99.235.43.93. The IP address User talk:24.36.9.241 is most likely a friend that User talk:99.235.43.93 recruited to help him out with the vandalism, and make the personal attakcs. Please extend block for both users and protect talk pages. Thank you. (If you have to respond to me for anything, please do so on my talk page. Thanks!) DiligentTerrier and friends 20:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I am having some trouble with snowfire51 and JuJube. (please see their talk pages). I have asked them to stop calling me a troll and a sock but they contuine to do so. They are looking to get me blocked. Can someone please help. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GoneHH ( talk • contribs) 06:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Not true. PLease see your talk page. I have corrected mistakes on the city of Belleville page and you changed them without checking. I am not a sock or a troll so stop. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
GoneHH (
talk •
contribs) 06:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
how about we check the info that I added!!! IF it is correct should it not stay? IN anycase, being called a sock and a troll for hours because I changed one page is not nice. I have no problem with snowfire51 or anyone else on wiki. I ask that I be treated in a friedly manner. That is all. Thank you for your help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GoneHH ( talk • contribs) 06:47, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone whose first edits include a bad faith assumption and sockpuppet-like activity (along with the removal of comments) will draw the watchful eye of at least one interested party. In addition, reverting the edits of varying users with no explanation or discussion will draw the ire of many. seicer | talk | contribs 13:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Following two previous postings on this page here and here, both of which were resolved in my favour, I am having further trouble with user Cebactokpatop, repeatedly (falsely) calling me a liar, and threatening to report me to WP:3RR (which I have not broken) if I do not revert edits 'within 15 minutes' [26]. Seminarist ( talk) 16:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I gotta say to both Cebactokpatop and Seminarist, your edit summaries give the appearance that you are both single issue/topic editors, and I'd suggest you both take a look at WP:TEND for some guidance. Religion and faith traditions are notoriously difficult areas in which to edit, and civility is even more important in this context than anwhere else on Wikipedia. That being said, and without having spent enough time to dig deep here, my first impression is that Cebactokpatop needs to take the previous advice more seriously, and really should not ever comment about the editor -- lose the "you" words is my advice, and don't threaten people or issue ultimatums. As difficult as it may be, you really need to be civil. Seminarist, are you making sure that you are hearing Cebactokpatop's concerns fully? Clearly Cebactokpatop is going too far, but can you do anything at all at your end to turn down the heat? Take my two-cents worth for what it's worth, and peace to both of you. WNDL42 ( talk) 03:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Help would be welcome at Talk:Paul Tillich. Article development has completely halted due to disruption by this single purpose account editor who wants the theologian Paul Tillich to be described as "an atheist". The consensus is that this is unsupported by sources, is a breach of WP:SOAP, and is based on original research - particularly this user's personal synthesis of primary sources (in clear breach of WP:PSTS). Excessively long postings are also proving obstructive. Gordonofcartoon ( talk) 04:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Saul Tillich Replies: The above posts are full of false accusations.
1. I am accused of "Modification of another editor's Talk page comment to change the meaning." This never happened. The only modification I ever made was to capitalize the first word of a sentence in a paragraph I was replying to. You will note that the accuser avoids before-and-after specifics.
2. "Blanking article without explanation is another problem." I have repeatedly explained in earlier edits that the material was being deleted because it was false -- essentially the same reason Anastrophe and others are deleting my edits, which they regard as false.
3. "There are clear cases of not only incivility, but a personal attack and bad faith assumptions." The personal attacks and bad faith assumptions come from the other side. I have repeatedly been accused of vandalism and bad faith. Specifically, I was accused of "attempting to discredit" Tillich. (Apparently the accusers think that calling Tillich an atheist discredits him, despite the fact that many interpreters and three encyclopedia articles have said, either explicitly or in effect [by calling him a pantheist], that Tillich is an atheist.) I am not trying to discredit Tillich, and neither do I believe that calling him an atheist discredits him. Does calling Hegel and Sartre and Nietzsche atheists discredit them? My accusers should be censored for bad faith and personal attacks.
4. My accusers have not only engaged in personal attacks on me, they have engaged in personal attacks on my primary source (Wheat). In the process, they have engaged in ad hominem argument -- attempting to discredit a person rather than the argument with which they disagree. In the process, the accuser reverted to sarcasm, a form of uncivil behavior, which is the very thing he accuses me of.
5. My arguments on the talk page are well supported by quotations from Tillich and other sources and by logic. Those who disagree with me have been unable to either support their own arguments with either quotations or logic. Instead, they choose to accuse me of "vandalism," "uncivil behavior," and personal attacks. This is simply a renewal of their earlier ad hominem argument -- attacking the opponent rather than his arguments.
6. Speaking of civility, Anastrophe wrote on Talk that "my good will is utterly spent in dealing with your poisonous methods. i did not remove your comments from this talk page. period." My reply (available on the talk page) was this: "Well, somebody deleted my refutation of the question-and-answer interpretation of Tillich's method of correlation. I assumed, apparently erroneously (and on the basis of your previously having impugned my motives), that it was you. I'll take your word for that it wasn't you; perhaps it was Gordon. In any case, I apologize for the hasty assumption." Meanwhile, whereas I am accused of editing the talk comments of others, something I haven't done, the others (or one of them) have actually deleted the evidence I presented that their article's interpretation of Tillich's "method of correlation" is wrong. And then they claim, falsely, that I have not given reasons for my deletion/edits.
7. The accusers repeat above what Anastrophe falsely said, and that I previously refuted, in the earlier Talk page that he archived: "The consensus is that this is unsupported by sources, is a breach of WP:SOAP, and is based on original research - particularly this user's personal synthesis of primary sources (in clear breach of WP:PSTS)." If they didn't know this statement was false when they made it earlier, they knew it when they repeated it on this page. My refutation was that this so-called "original research" is not at all original. As I said on the archived Talk page, Wheat's thesis that Tillich's "God above God" is humanity has been around for 38 years, ever since his book was published by Johns Hopkins Press in 1970. There is no "personal synthesis of primary sources." Wheat provided the synthesis and the quotations. After checking the quotations against the primary sources for accuracy (they were all accurate), I used them in the article, citing the primary sources, which should always be cited when possible. The only thing original in my first-cut (and admittedly too long) article was a count (taken from indexes of Tillich's books) of the numbers of times Tillich referred to Hegel, Kant, Schelling, and Marx -- philosophers to whom Wheat attributes the origin of Tillich's concept that God is man. I acknowledged that these counts were original and deleted them.
8. "I can't see how the article can be developed while this editor's activities are unchecked. Discussion is proving useless: try working from sources, but whatever they say, the guy simply writes some obscure personal gloss of their meaning." I can make the same accusation: I can't see how an accurate article can be developed while these accusers' activities are unchecked. Discussion is proving useless. The accusers are unable to refute my arguments or my evidence (primarily quotations from Tillich). Instead they resort to the personal attacks you see on this page. As for the "obscure gloss" refuting their articles versions of (1) Tillich's "norm" and (2) Tillich's method of correlation, I invite you to undelete my article and read what I say about these two topics. Then ask yourself, is this "obscure gloss"? Or is "obscure gloss" name-calling?
9. Regarding my saying that Tillich is an atheist, my accusers write that "the consensus is that this is unsupported by sources." Actually, my conclusion is thoroughly supported by sources, which I gave. Here is what I replied on the talk page: "Your argument is false because my view that Tillich is an atheist is as mainstream as any other view. At least 12 interpreters have directly or indirectly labeled Tillich an atheist, sometimes by calling him a pantheist. These interpreters are Sidney Hook (1961), Walter Kaufmann (1961), David Freeman (1962), Kenneth Hamilton (1963), Alasdair M MacIntyre (1963), Bernard Martin (1963), John A. T. Robinson (1963), J. Heywood Thomas (1963), Guyton Hammond (1966), Nels Ferre (1966), William Rowe (1968), Leonard Wheat (1970). Several others have expressed uncertainty concerning whether Tillich is a theist. Now, how many interpreters can you name who have affirmed that Tillich believes in the God of theism?" The accusers failed to name even one interpreter who considers Tillich a theist, a believer in the traditional God of theism (although there are three or four such interpreters). I later added, again on the Talk page, three encyclopedia articles that treat Tillich as a pantheist, where pantheism is a form of atheism. And I still later added Nels F. S. Ferre's discription of his person-to-person questioning of Tillich which made it clear to Ferre that Tillich is an atheist. As for the idea that my accusers' "consensus" that Tillich is not an atheist makes their view correct, I would reply that (1) there once was a consensus that the earth if flat and that the sun revolves around the earth and (2) the consensus of interpreters -- the fifteen I named (including the encyclopedias) weight more heavily than the consensus of three poorly educated editors, who are unfamiliar with the Hegelian dialectical formulations on which Tillich's theology is based. (By poorly educated I am not referring to their college and apparent divinity school educations but to their lack of knowledge of the philosophies, particularly those of Hegel and Marx, on which Tillich's "philosophical theology" is based.) Saul Tillich ( talk) 00:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
10. With further regard to the issue of who is being "uncivil," I offer the latest exchange, wherein I am (a) once more accused of "vandalism" for the heinous act of deleting someone else's demonstrably false interpretation of Tillich's theology -- essentially what the accusers have been doing to my edits -- and (b) threatened with being blocked from Wiki editing if I do not block myself. Threats and accusations of "vandalism" clearly constitute uncivil behavior. Here is the exchange:
ANTONIO LOPEZ: The recent edit you made to Paul Tillich constitutes vandalism, and has been reverted. Please do not continue to vandalize pages; use the sandbox for testing. Thanks. Antonio Lopez (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC))
ANASTROPHE: Please stop. If you continue to blank out or delete portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did to Paul Tillich, you will be blocked from editing. Anastrophe (talk) 03:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Message for Anastrophe and His Colleagues: May I remind you, Mr. Anastrophe, that you are deleting my edits as often as I am deleting yours. Back in January you took pleasure in quoting to me the following: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." Well, just as you have been editing my work mercilessly, I am doing the same with yours, which I am entitled to do. I am deleting your false descriptions of Tillich's theology because they are false, and false material does not belong in Wiki. That is not vandalism; that is editing. Please do not "continue to blank out or delete portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did to Paul Tillich." In other words, stop blanking out and deleting portions of page content, templates, or other materials.
That you and your compatriots regard my article as "unconstructive" is irrelevant. I regard your work as unconstructive -- false and naive. In the talk discussion, you have never been able to support your position with quotations. Instead you use ad hominen argument and sarcasm. Worse, you dishonestly accuse me of attempting "do discredit Tillich," whereas I am doing no such thing. Your accusation seems to reflect a belief that, as a theologian, Tillich could not possibly be an atheist. In the process, you ignore the evidence I have presented that a very strong majority (not your "tiny minority") of Tillich's interpreters regard him as an atheist -- either a pantheist, a mystic, or a complete nonsupernaturalist. To base an article, as you are doing, on nothing but personal prejudice and a closed mind is the epitome of "unconstructive" behavior.
So come off your high horse, cut out this holier-than-thou nonsense, and accept the fact that I have as much right to edit as you do. Grow up, learn that people disagree on many things, and realize that disagreement does not constitute vandalism.Saul Tillich (talk) 23:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
BERIAN: This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Please read WP:COI and WP:POV, as I have tagged Paul Tillich. Bearian (talk) 23:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
11. Here's an attack I failed to respond to in my earlier enumerated points: "Personal attacks: "You are back to your old trick of basing your claims on nothing but imagination and preconceived opinions" ... "Anyone (meaning you) who does not understand the concept of atheism and thinks it is just an empty label should not be discussing theology."
That's a "personal attack"? That is an attack on an unsupported claim. Here is the exchange.
When a claim ("Tillich differentiates supernaturalism from theism," along with others before it, is made without any semblance of support -- no quotation from Tillich, no other evidence, no argument -- and when the author makes it clear that he simply can't believe Tillich was an atheist, then the assertion that the claim is based on imagination and preconceived opinion is justified. The preconceived opinion is readily inferred from the earlier charge that I am trying to discredit Tillich by calling him an atheist. Who would hold such a view? Answer: someone who thinks atheism is evil, who would certainly be a religious conservative, who is just the type of person who could not imagine that Tillich, Bultmann, Neibuhr, and Robinson could be atheists.
Here is the exchange associated with the second quoted remark:
I stand by what I wrote. It is not a personal attack. Anyone who thinks that atheism is just a simplistic and meaningless label should not be discussing theology. Atheism has a clear and widely accepted meaning: belief in the God of theism, the traditional Judeo-Christian God, a rational, self-conscious supernatural being. Saul Tillich ( talk) 04:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the hostility and incivility here is, as far as I can tell, due to a conflict of interest. I strongly suggest to Mr. Tillich that he refrain from editing an article about any member of his family. Furthermore, if he cannot amicably and productively contribute to the discussion page, I suggest he find an area of Wikipedia to which he might contribute productively and without a conflict of interest. I don't want to be too reductive here, but this issue is generating alot of conflict, and regardless of whether there is incivility, personal attacks, edit warring, whatever else, there is a problem, and that problem is stemming from issues that exist only because someone who really shouldn't be editing the article is doing so. WP:COI makes it clear that editing in this fashion can lead to blocks, and that may be warranted at this point. Mr. Tillich, what do you think of my suggesetion? -- Cheeser1 ( talk) 05:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
After trying to reign in some problematic comments made about me in various venues, Sumoeagle179 ( talk · contribs) made a personal attack against me [38]. I would like an apology. ScienceApologist ( talk) 18:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
In sum, there is a history of bad blood between myself and this user, and this incivility is unwarranted, especially since this user has taken it upon himself to try to "teach me" about civility:
ScienceApologist ( talk) 19:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
SA, this is not a personal attack. Tom Butler calling you a sociopath was a personal attack. This post from now-banned Matt Sanchez is a personal attack. I undersatnd that you are irritated (to put it mildly) by the gaming of the system arounf civility which some tendentious POV pushers enjoy, but I seriously doubt that trying to game the system in the same sort of way is a good idea - you don't have the temprement for it. I fear that you are ultimately going to offer enough evidence that will allow those gamers to win the battle and have you banned. Don't give them the satisfaction. Jay*Jay ( talk) 14:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's look to WP:CCC, and please let's respect those editors who are unable or unwilling to "ride" this article as tendentiously as many of us here have been doing -- including me. The best editors with the most reasonable and neutral POVs are continually being either (a) driven away, or (b) drowned out by our "noise", and the sum total of our behavior is tantamount to disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. I for one am not able or willing to "keep up". Wikipedia does not belong to the most tendentious partisans in any topic area, indeed the articles that result from the "winning" of such noisy arguments wind up being, in general, amongst the
worst crapleast encyclopedic articles found on Wikipedia. WNDL42 ( talk) 16:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyeverybody/Anynobody, where I come from, a negative comment becomes a PERSONAL ATTACK when the words "you", "your", "Yours" are introduced to direct the comment at a specific individual target, as SA did, and as I did not do. I'd assume that editors commenting here would be familiar with the basics of WP:NPA. Perhaps you'd care to review (a) Ad hominem, (b) Avoid personal remarks...specifically "if you have opinions about other contributors as people, they don't belong there — or frankly, anywhere on Wikipedia.". Note that SA expressed an "opinion" that I (personally and specifically) should leave the topic. Do you care to review these basics and then restate your unhelpful characterization above? WNDL42 ( talk) 18:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I keep being harrassed by user Gene Nygaard regarding the use of the defaultsort statement. To eliminate the dispute I have stopped using the defaultsort, but I keep getting agressive messages.
I don't understand what the issue is about. I am satisfied with the Wikipedia sorting and see no reason to change them. However I find it totally inappropriate for a user to set up new rules, which are nowhere indicated in prevailing guidelines and to force them upon other users.
I request help to stop these messages. Afil ( talk) 01:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
This editor has used abusive language towards me. Additionally, this editor continues to remove my edits to the Zangief page.
I have provided a valid reference for my edit, although this doesn't seem to concern this user.
Here's an example of what constitutes "talk" for this user.
You want to get blocked for the same crap you got blocked for before? Discuss it on the talk page, but it's pretty much certain you'll never get The Later Years on the page. JuJube (talk) 05:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This is not the way to begin a discussion with another Wikipedia editor.
Juju based on your recent edits [39] and here (and most of your edit summaries) it is recommended you read up on WP:BITE and WP:CIVIL. The issue on the Zangief article should be discussed on the talk page to try to reach consensus. Gtstricky Talk or C 14:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
In a "comment" on my talk page where a complaint that I had filed here against a now indefinitely blocked anti-semitic former editor was under discussion, Calton launched a gratuitous personal attack here. This attack is the latest in his abusive comments against me, ostensibly as a result of my having filed a successful case documenting the massive longstanding sockpuppetry of an editor he seemed to have been allied with, ( Griot). Calton had also had filed a bogus and disproven sockpuppetry case aginst me here This is at least the second time Calton, who seems to be stalking my activities, has made a gratuitous personal attack based on his vengeful attitude, rather than the topic at hand that he posts on. See, eg, here. I offered Calton the opportunity to provide evidence of his claims on my talk page, specifically, that I am:
He hasn't, so I need to report it here. Boodlesthecat ( talk) 21:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry Boodles, but you've stepped in it now. No admin ever steps in against Calton, and the regular editors who complain about him usually end up being blocked in a questionable manner. You see above, how Calton twists everything around all the time to make herself look like she's the victim? As much as I hate to say it, you will never win, because she is so unpleasant that even admins are reluctant to admonish or *gasp* actually give her the block she sooooo much deserves. Walk away, man. Just walk away. Sorry. 24.220.220.117 ( talk) 02:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Calton, Groupthink was discovered and documented in the 1970's, what makes you think that Wikipedia would not be vulnerable as well? Hell, Wikipedia is a virtual nutrient rich petrie dish for Groupthink, why does my question seem like "bizarre theorizing" to you? It was just a question. If the shoe obviously won't fit, then don't try it on. WNDL42 ( talk) 03:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to have a serious discussion on some academic sources I brought forward
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Some_more_quotes_on_the_Assyrian_Genocide
And I don't think I should have to face this kind of disruptive editing. I am not sure what WP policy is wrt racism but I would be surprised if this weren't in violation of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Bias_problems
The only reason why you recognise the events as genocide is because you're Greek. Simple. Why wouldn't you? After all, the most patriotic Greek is also the most anti-Turkish one. I've met many Greeks in my life and they're all hostile towards me. What have I done to them? Nothing, yet Greeks still discriminate against me because I'm Turkish, and let me tell you that I've never EVER done the same to a Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Bias_problems
Think about it. Think hard and reflect. I get gagged by Greek people at school all the time whenever I try to defend myself about the whole Cyprus issue. The moment I start trying to defend myself, they just tell me to shut up because they're not interested in the other side of the story. Well I am, and the last thing I will put up with is people trying to shut me up and violate my freedom of speech. I WILL NOT ALLOW, and I repeat, WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO VIOLATE MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH by reporting me for stuff I haven't done, K?! I haven't done anything wrong to you whatsoever, so stop making fabricated accusations..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_genocide#Some_more_quotes_on_the_Assyrian_Genocide
Dude, all you're doing is wasting your time and increasing the length of the situation even further. None of what you've copy-pasted has actually answered my question, so all this crap is still null and void.
The user is probably too young to know better so don't be too harsh. Just advise them on WP:EQ. Thank you. Xenovatis ( talk) 21:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Some help is requested with an IP editor who seems to be having difficulty communicating on Talk:Keratoconus. Their first to the article was an editorial comment. After multiple unsourced edits, their IP was blocked for vandalism. Blocking got their attention and they came to Talk:Keratoconus to discuss their edits. Discussion on that page seems to have broken down entirely and outside help would be much appreciated. IP editor involvement is in this thread beginning about 1 March (multiple IP are used and they don't sign their posts). Delicious carbuncle ( talk) 15:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Has added this to my user page, in retaliation for putting warning tags on his talk page due to vandalism of articles todo with anti-racism. I don't think this individual has any intent for valid contribution to wikipedia. -- Mista-X ( talk) 14:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
This person wrote unflattering info on Sunny Kim's Wikipedia site. For example, he wrote "Yo Mama" for his real name. -DANO- ( talk) 01:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello,
The "Denial of the Holodomor" article is now embroiled in controversy. There are three tags on the page, and it appears that the talk page has become polarized. Unfortunately, one editor makes comments like this [ [40]], and titles edit diffs "what is this crap?" [ [41]], and is ready to keep editing against consensus. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks, Horlo ( talk) 20:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I strongly suggest you stop dragging out this dispute - both of you. If there are content issues, which is all this seems to be, I suggest you try to establish a consensus towards some version of the article that meets Wikipedia's core policies and is agreed upon by everyone. If you can't do that on your own, solicit a third opinion or submit a request for comment. -- Cheeser1 ( talk) 17:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)