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I recently tagged Star Trek planet classifications with a copyvio tag because its content was blatanly ripped from a book (and despite plagiarism, the book wasn't even listed as a source). This user responded very rudely, including use of profane language, and assumed that my intetions were bad - that I was trying to get the article deleted out of some sort of spite that I apparently harbor. I asked him twice to discontinue his inappropriate behavior and to assume good faith, until he insisted that he was not violating policy, but rather "add[ing] more flavor" to the discussion. This is a relatively minor dispute, but this user's behavior seems to be in gross violation of WP:CIVIL, WP:GF, and possibly WP:NPA, and the user believes that it's fine to act like this. I was wondering if a third party could comment on this and hopefully help this user understand how/why to act appropriately on Wikipedia. Thanks. -- Cheeser1 15:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Cheeser is blowing this way out of proportion. He/She is only doing this because he/she thinks I should kiss their ass, that I owe him/her respect because they're "enforcing the rules", and they apparently don't believe that if you accuse someone of something, like plagarism you'd get a negative reaction about it. But since the Ettiquite rules state that Wikipedians are to be emotionless and mindless robots and not allowed to voice an opinion ever, and I voiced one and made an argument and he/she is pissed off about it.
I must say that in regard to his first accusation of the article not being properly sourced, Cheeser must have been too busy adding the copyright violation tag, because had they actually took the time to read the article they would have seen that the material was sourced at the top part of the article in the header. Yes, I admit it was not the usual location at the bottom of the page where they would normally be, but this article was hit once before for violating copyright and I wanted to make it clear where the info was coming from. If it was in the wrong spot I apoligize for thinking that for once some people didn't have to be led by the hand around here. Anyway, if you look at the history it was referenced at the top.
All these other nonsense accusations are clearly because Cheeser needs to have the last word. I have no time for his/her stupid games. I cleaned up the article already, removed all questionable material, and moved on. Cheeser just wants to one up me because I "offended" him/her and this is how they get revenge. I'll be the first to admit that I can be a sarcastic bastard because I really don't take much in life seriously. I guess Cheeser wants a consensus to prove it. Cyberia23 18:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, User:Cheeser1 - I think we've taken it as far as this Wikiquette alert can go. Wikiquette alerts are really only useful when dealing with users who *want* to adhere to policy, and User:Cyberia23 seems quite happy not to. You can take it to higher levels if you want, and you could probably eventually get action, but I think it might be easier to just accept that some people are jerks, and that sometimes the onus is (unfairly) on non-jerks to put up with them. I'm marking as stuck. Sarcasticidealist 23:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
For the record, I left an apology on Cheeser1's talk page about this incident. I admit I violated WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL in a futile attempt at getting the upper hand in our disagreements. It was stupid of me to flip out and take my aggressions out on him and I hope he reconsiders filing a compliant to the higher echelon. It was a dumb argument and not worth how far it's gone. Hopefully now this is resolved but it's now his decision how he wants to pursue the matter. Cyberia23 19:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been engaged in a protracted content dispute with Ludovica on a few pages, including Fernando Collor de Mello, João Goulart and 1964 Brazilian coup d'état. The disputes center around the application of WP:OR, WP:NPOV and WP:V, but what has concerned me is her attitude in this debate. She has accused me of acting in bad faith, and issued numerous personal attacks. She has also petitioned administrators directly to block me, outside of the WP:DR mechanism. I would just ignore normally, but considering this expanding to other peoples' talk pages I figure a check from third parties would be good. Here are a few examples:
There are a few others but I have to go back and search through blanked pages.
Note: It's important to point out that this user has been blocked for one year in the Portuguese Wikipedia ( here) for personal attacks. She opened her user account on the EN wikipedia a few hours after being blocked on the PT wikipedia on June 6, 2007. She consistently edits the same articles as the blocked PT username did, including adding the same sources and generally of the same POV (examples here and here).-- Dali-Llama 18:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Ludovicapipa yes? 19:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Tony1 ( talk · contribs) Unfortunately, despite the thread above, his aggressive behavior continues unabated. [3]. >Radiant< 08:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm closing this WQA for the same reasons as the first one - the entire issue has been escalated to the Admin Noticeboard. — KieferSkunk ( talk) — 16:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been involved in some editing conflicts with User:Bakasuprman, and I find some of his contributions to our discussions a bit uncivil. Bakasuprman is upset with me, primarily because I endorsed his indefinite block on WP:ANI in April 2007; the discussion is here. The matter went to Arbcom ( Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Hkelkar 2), which found no grounds for blocking Bakasuprman, and he remains an editor in good standing. Another reason for Bakasuprman to be upset with me is a discussion I initiated on ANI ( here) in July 2007 that lead to him being briefly blocked for edit warring.
While it's understandable that he dislikes me, I find some of Bakasuprman's comments towards me vexing, and possibly in violation of WP:CIVIL. The latest examples can be found on my user talk page and User talk:FCYTravis; for instance this comment, accusing me of religious bias and being a "maladroit hack", following my restoration of a talk page comment at Talk:Romila Thapar, and this comment, where the link to Hanlon's Razor is apparently supposed to mean that I am idiotic, not malicious.
This is not an isolated occurrence; earlier Bakasuprman called me "uneducated, dishonest, and irrational", as well as apparently accusing me of anti-Hindu bias (full discussion here).
What I'm looking for here is primarily some outside perspective: is this kind of discourse the kind of thing I should expect on India-related pages, as Bakasuprman contends? (n.b, after his statement that "Editors of India related articles are always incivil" he later said that "its rhetoric", so that is not an acknowledgement of incivility.) If so, I should just suck this up, or remove the few India-related pages I edit from my watchlist? On the other hand, if, as I think, Bakasuprman's comments are outside the bounds of civility, I'd appreciate it if someone else would let him know; he doesn't seem too inclined to accept my input. --Akhilleus ( talk) 06:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Bakasuprman has announced on several occasions that "civility does not apply" in contentious areas of Wikipedia. (Contentious areas are anywhere he edits.) My last words on the subject - when he repeated this "defense" yesterday, which Sarvagna seems to share - are here: [4]. Please do read them. Hornplease 16:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
This thread is making me wonder about this noticeboard's utility. Instead of getting outside comment about the issues at hand, this thread is simply offering Bakasuprman another venue to cast aspersions on my character, credibility, etc. If we're not going to get any comments from uninvolved parties, this "discussion" ought to be closed. --Akhilleus ( talk) 01:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
There has been a slight battle over at this page from Chunk Champion. He created and actively edits the article, but I stepped in to try to improve the page. Since then, he's fought me left and right on edits. The reason I bring this issue here is that we had a discussion over what to name the section that refers to the discontinue flavors. I went ahead and got a third opinion that seemed reasonable and went ahead and made the edits, and he reverted them and left a fairly inflammatory comment on the talk page. This whole thing seems to stem from his not understanding how Wiki ownership works, and it's starting to bug me. Where can I go from here? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 14:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm changing this from Resolved to In Progress. Chunk Champion continues to ignore the slight consensus that has been reached on this page (see the talk page) and has contacted Ben & Jerry's for their opinion. Two people (one here and one here) have told him that this action is irrelevant. If this continues, I'm considering starting an RfC. Does anyone have any other suggestions? It seems silly/excessive to apply for an RfC, but it seems there may be no other choice. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 23:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Editor TharkunColl ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki) seems to have been causing undue disruption across a number of articles for some time now, including at English people, God Save the Queen, Passport, Commonwealth of Nations, Head of the Commonwealth, Monarchy in Canada, British monarchy, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, Second city of the United Kingdom, Commonwealth realm, etc. There seems to be two main, though intertwined, issues with his overall actions:
Overall, TharkunColl's moves show that he:
Hence, TharkunColl's general actions seem to place him squarely under WP:DISRUPT. His talk page and block log show some of the extensive evidence of his conduct.
WP:RFCC has been considered, however I wished to start this informal RfC first, and, perhaps, have others directly communicate with TharkunColl regarding his behaviour. -- G2bambino 18:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
PS - as User:TharkunColl's talk page is currently locked, I have not, as of yet, notified him of this posting. I will do so at the earliest possible opportunity. -- G2bambino 18:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I essentially concur with Thark's assessment. User
G2bambino (aka
Gbambino/
Gbambino06) has a long history as the epitome of a
tendentious editor, going back to his inaugural attempt to put "Canada is a kingdom" into the opening of the article on Canada. While I don't condone some aspects of Thark's behaviour, G. is much the more disruptive of the two.
--
Lonewolf BC
16:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
If I can offer an observation: I respect both TharkunColl and G2bambino as editors who do their research and offer useful comments. I have been in lengthy discussions with both of them. I have both agreed and disagreed with them on a number of points. From what I've observed G2bambino and TharkunColl clash frequently on many pages. They seem to argue most about the relationship of the UK monarchy with other Commonwealth monarchies: in particular, the Canadian one. In my opinion TharkunColl does seem to ignore some points and sometimes offers (in my opinion) irrational arguments. But on that score you could castigate many of not most editors at some point or another. On the other hand, if you stay with him long enough and patiently enough, he will address your points. G2Bambino, in his discussions with TharkunColl seems to assume motive and resorts sometimes to personal attacks. He also on occasion ignores valid points TharkunColl makes. They are both red rags to each other, as many talk pages show. I think this issue is more about a personal feud. Both parties are equally responsible for disruptions. I agree with GoodDay: if you read a lengthy exchange them, they actually agree on more than they argue about. And yes, following another good idea from GoodDay, why don't you (Tharky and G2) both retire temporarily from the UK vs equal monarchy thing and see how it plays out without you? You might be able to get some fresh perspective. -- Gazzster 07:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Rather than being disruptive I would say Tharky pushes his point. You could call that a strength as long as his arguments are supported by evidence. And he does put evidence forward, no matter how much we may dispute its worth. And I agree, it can be annoying. But as I say, if you stay with him long enough, and treat him with respect, he will respond to your arguments. I'd suggest simply rely on the safeguards Wiki already has in place (the 3 revert block rule, etc)to deal with difficulties, and most importantly, don't respond in a personal manner. As youve read from my comments to Tharky, I get riled by him, but it is important to keep my cool. When I stopped feeling riled, I noticed he put forward some bloody good points that made me think. I will of course, continue to spar with him. It's all good fun, as long as noone gets hurt! Cheers!-- Gazzster 02:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
A long-simmering dispute at Battle of Jenin has seen much heat and little light over the past several weeks. A {{POV-check}} tag was added, belatedly, on 3 August, and I soon changed it to {{TotallyDisputed}}, which I thought was a more accurate characterization of the debate. (POV-check is generally for minor issues, such as when a new article is created by someone who doesn't feel they can be entirely neutral, and voluntarily asks for a "sanity check" by a second editor.) Anyway, the tag was reverted and unreverted a bunch of times over the next few days, without explanation, until User:Jaakobou argued on 6 Aug that we "did not open a talk page subsection explaining this dispute", and that "i see no reason for the orange tag except that one side is unhappy that they look bad with the material in the article". Myself and other editors discussed this and the tags seemed to stick.
Over the past 3 or 4 weeks the dispute has certainly not quited down; if anything, it's become more heated. Those who follow this board (and AN/I and even CSN) have probably cseen some fallout from it. Anyway, the point I'm making is that we seem to be getting further from consensus, rather than closer. This being said, User:Jaakobou removed the tags saying that "factuality has been established and there's no massive neutrality issues. feel free to open the issues on talk in separete subsections." (Actually, that's another issue here - Jaakobou has been aggressively trying to structure the discussion to his liking, moving around comments to "on" and "off" -topic sections, insisting that he won't comment in a section if he finds the title "NPOV", etc)
Anyway, I reverted the tag with the summary "re-add tags; the fact that some editors have been worn down or driven off by excessively circular talk page discussion does not mean that issues are "resolved"!", Jaakobou re-reverterd the tag with the summary "rv, i don't follow your commentary/edit summary - what factuality problems are you contesting exactly ?", and User:PalestineRemembered restored it saying "This is a hugely disputed article..Lead stuffed with inappropriate "context", written to the "minority view" eg over whether it was a massacre, lots evidence missing." I have given in and written an extensive summary of the POV problems with one paragraph, which I believe is very typical of the entire piece.
I'd like opinions on two issues:
1) Under what circumstances are maintenance tags removed? Whever I've done it, it's been by posting on the talk page and getting unanimous consent. I realize this may not be practically required in all cases, but I'd never dream of removing a tag when two or three editrs disagree, without having some overwhelming exceptional reason.
2) What do we do when a discussion simply goes on and on without any resolution? Is it just time for mediation? I'm worried that the extremely wearying nature of this discussion is driving people to leave, or at least seriously reduce their involvement - causing those editors who stay to jump in proclaiming that the dispute no longer exists.
Thanks, and I apologize for the length of the post, and for the summary which will necessarily exclude all kinds of details - this has been going on for 6 weeks at least, with at least 6 or 7 editors posting extensively, so I'm sure I've missed many things. Eleland 13:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Kilogram is a class-B Vital article that Greg L has been doing an enormous amount of work on. Unfortunately, the user's behavior on the talk page shows signs of ownership. There was a fair amount of constructive, collaborative editing sparked by Greg L's contributions, but one exception was the response of other editors to the huge expansion of the "mass versus weight" section. I initiated a Request for Comments on the issue, but Greg L has stated the he is not interested in what other users on the page have to say, and he has been attacking other user's suitability to edit the page.
Involved parties:
User:Yath deleted the expansion very early
User:JimWae is engaged in editing and discussion on the talk page
User:Enuja I am engaged in discussion on the talk page
I would like advice on how to make editing and discussion on this article constructive again. Enuja (talk) 23:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the tag on top to "resolved" as it seems to be so. Thanks for the help from Darkwind, and thanks to Greg L! Enuja (talk) 02:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Tony1 ( talk · contribs) is posting silly personal attacks about me and other people he disagrees with, and disrupting discussion with ad hominems, as well as by alluding to conspiracies and "ploys" against him, and calling people Nazis. Could someone have a word with him and get him to calm down? [12] [13] [14] [15] >Radiant< 11:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry to see a conflict erupt between Tony1 and Radiant, two good editors. IMO the problem actually originated with Pmanderson, and Radiant found himself in the middle of Tony1's exhausted patience after long-standing disruption to Wikipedia's manual of style by Pmanderson, while Tony has attempted to improve the MOS to common professional standards in use elsewhere. I have limited computer access for the remainder of this week and next, but I have left one small example of how difficult it has been to work on MOS because of Pmanderson's editing on Radiant's talk page. [16] I do wish someone would look into Pmanderson's behavior as part of this whole issue; I can't help but notice he's lodged what I consider to be a spurious issue two sections below this one, and suggest that someone might ask Pmanderson to consider his own editing style and the effect it has on others. I also note that someone actually left a template on Tony1's talk page, perhaps never having read WP:DTR. For someone who has worked as hard as Tony1 has to improve Wikipedia, that's just insulting and the whole point behind DTR. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 20:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
— KieferSkunk ( talk) — 01:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Because this issue has now been raised at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Admin Radiant!, I've marked it as Stuck here. I don't see that there's anything more we can do in this situation - the situation is apparently much more complex than we're equipped to deal with here on WQA. — KieferSkunk ( talk) — 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
-- An RFC has been filed against User:Epbr123. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 19:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else find Epbr123's part in this conversation gratingly condescending, particularly his idea that the FAC regulars are entitled to educate the rest of Wikipedia? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
In my recent conversations with Epbr123, in addition to his recent remarks on Talk:List of big-bust models and performers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of big-bust models and performers (5th nomination), he seems to be violating civility, no personal attacks, and, in an odd sort of way, even taking ownership of the aforementioned article in a deletionist sort of way. His behavior has me concerned, particularly his sniping of people on the linked AFD and I feel that it requires mediation, which may even result in a request for comment on this user sometime in the near future. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 17:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't have time to add too much exposition to these points right. Well, we'll see how much I crank out. On this very WQA, Epbr took it upon himself to accuse an intervening administrator of etiquette violations just because the admin told him to stop disruptively nominating articles for deletion. He also made a personal attack against me, just a few paragraphs above, calling me a "stalker" and a "schoolkid" in order to discredit my complaints against him. Interesting that his condescending "schoolmaster" approach was the initial reason this WQA was opened (although it's widened quite a bit in its scope since then). He nominated 11 articles for deletion in a single day, from Notable Usenet personalities, but instead of grouping them, he nominated them all at once (this is why the admin warned him). He justified it using an (invalid) citation of WP:SNOW, here. He has been extraordinarily uncivil [17] for example. He constantly marks people's comments as "ILIKEIT" and makes other unfounded remarks in order to antagonize and discredit them.
Unsubstantiated accusations of "bad faith" or frivolous accusations of "ILIKEIT":
Personally insulting responses:
Other non-constructive responses to keep votes:
Other non-constructive comments:
Sorry, I know that's alot of links. If you only click one, click this one instead (note: this one is not included on the list). All these antagonisitc, non-constructive comments, the result is undeniably to sour the AfD process and make it impossible to work together to discuss policy and work to form consensus on the issue. Instead, these bad-faith AfD nomimations are marked with continued acts of unreasonable and uncivil behavior. It seems entirely inappropriate to respond condescendingly, or at least non-constructively, to every single "keep" vote. He even admits that his AfD was an attempt to prove a point about the subjectivity of the criteria - a point he could have made on the article's talk page, something to be discussed and resolved with other editors. Instead, he jumped ship on the discussion, because he has decided unilaterally that the article wasn't worth keeping. He's made it a point to drag irrelevant topics into the AfD by asking pedantic leading questions, as pointed out here by Xhir. He believes that the AfD page is the place to discuss content issues (see here). It appears that he believes that he is in charge of clean up, and that when edit wars ensue, he is in charge of fixing it by AfD'ing the whole thing (see here). He also seems to like to accuse people of the violations that they are accusing him of (when accused of bad faith, he accuses bad faith, and the same with POINT and CIVIL). He seems to believe that he is the only one in charge of deciding whether an article can be properly sourced. He seems to think he is appointed by Wikipedia to delete bad articles - he thinks he speaks for the entire Wikipedia community (despite the fact that many of his currently-running AfDs have snowballed-keep). He seems to be very proud of it, in fact. And yet he would accuse an admin of an abuse of power with no evidence whatsoever. His behavior has, from the start, been entirely out of line. I first encountered him here on the WQA, where he had accused User:georgewilliamherbert of abusing administrator power by warning him about his AfDs. I looked and was immediately surprised to see him going on what can only be described as a deletion spree. I can't speculate as to why, but User:Dekkappai has some ideas. Regardless, this is way out of hand. I believe something needs to be done. I may have more to add later, but I am fairly busy and may not be able to find the time. But this is what I've come up with now, in a bit of spare time I had this evening. Of course, there are also plenty of other users making points that I have not covered here (like Xhir's point about Epbr trying to move a page in the middle of an AfD he started for that page). Oh, and one more point: he lists every single one of his edits as "minor." Many people filter out minor edits, and he would effectively be able to edit without being noticed by these people. He could respond to their points, appropriately or not, and they'd never even see it. The "This is a minor edit" button is not supposed to be abused in this fashion. -- Cheeser1 03:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm also going to point everyone here. Another user is deleting people's "votes" in Epbr's AfDs, and Epbr is helping that user out by telling him/her that his removals (which I would consider serious vandalism) are being reverted. See [37] [38] [39] [40]. He seems to be supporting these absurd claims of "trolling" (probably because that's one less keep vote) however, even if a poorly justified vote on an AfD isn't great, but it is not trolling. -- Cheeser1 11:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I've begun breaking ground on the RfC on Epbr123. For those of us directly involved with this, please feel free to modify my work, since it's been a long while since I've ever had to file an RfC against anyone. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 17:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Note: I notified the user about the RfC against him; he has since blanked the notification. I wish to restore it, however I did not read anything in RFC guidelines regarding the removal of notification messages one way or the other, so have held off for now. Regardless, the user knows about the RfC, so I guess it has served its purpose. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 19:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any additional comments to the current main page. |
I recently tagged Star Trek planet classifications with a copyvio tag because its content was blatanly ripped from a book (and despite plagiarism, the book wasn't even listed as a source). This user responded very rudely, including use of profane language, and assumed that my intetions were bad - that I was trying to get the article deleted out of some sort of spite that I apparently harbor. I asked him twice to discontinue his inappropriate behavior and to assume good faith, until he insisted that he was not violating policy, but rather "add[ing] more flavor" to the discussion. This is a relatively minor dispute, but this user's behavior seems to be in gross violation of WP:CIVIL, WP:GF, and possibly WP:NPA, and the user believes that it's fine to act like this. I was wondering if a third party could comment on this and hopefully help this user understand how/why to act appropriately on Wikipedia. Thanks. -- Cheeser1 15:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Cheeser is blowing this way out of proportion. He/She is only doing this because he/she thinks I should kiss their ass, that I owe him/her respect because they're "enforcing the rules", and they apparently don't believe that if you accuse someone of something, like plagarism you'd get a negative reaction about it. But since the Ettiquite rules state that Wikipedians are to be emotionless and mindless robots and not allowed to voice an opinion ever, and I voiced one and made an argument and he/she is pissed off about it.
I must say that in regard to his first accusation of the article not being properly sourced, Cheeser must have been too busy adding the copyright violation tag, because had they actually took the time to read the article they would have seen that the material was sourced at the top part of the article in the header. Yes, I admit it was not the usual location at the bottom of the page where they would normally be, but this article was hit once before for violating copyright and I wanted to make it clear where the info was coming from. If it was in the wrong spot I apoligize for thinking that for once some people didn't have to be led by the hand around here. Anyway, if you look at the history it was referenced at the top.
All these other nonsense accusations are clearly because Cheeser needs to have the last word. I have no time for his/her stupid games. I cleaned up the article already, removed all questionable material, and moved on. Cheeser just wants to one up me because I "offended" him/her and this is how they get revenge. I'll be the first to admit that I can be a sarcastic bastard because I really don't take much in life seriously. I guess Cheeser wants a consensus to prove it. Cyberia23 18:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, User:Cheeser1 - I think we've taken it as far as this Wikiquette alert can go. Wikiquette alerts are really only useful when dealing with users who *want* to adhere to policy, and User:Cyberia23 seems quite happy not to. You can take it to higher levels if you want, and you could probably eventually get action, but I think it might be easier to just accept that some people are jerks, and that sometimes the onus is (unfairly) on non-jerks to put up with them. I'm marking as stuck. Sarcasticidealist 23:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
For the record, I left an apology on Cheeser1's talk page about this incident. I admit I violated WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL in a futile attempt at getting the upper hand in our disagreements. It was stupid of me to flip out and take my aggressions out on him and I hope he reconsiders filing a compliant to the higher echelon. It was a dumb argument and not worth how far it's gone. Hopefully now this is resolved but it's now his decision how he wants to pursue the matter. Cyberia23 19:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been engaged in a protracted content dispute with Ludovica on a few pages, including Fernando Collor de Mello, João Goulart and 1964 Brazilian coup d'état. The disputes center around the application of WP:OR, WP:NPOV and WP:V, but what has concerned me is her attitude in this debate. She has accused me of acting in bad faith, and issued numerous personal attacks. She has also petitioned administrators directly to block me, outside of the WP:DR mechanism. I would just ignore normally, but considering this expanding to other peoples' talk pages I figure a check from third parties would be good. Here are a few examples:
There are a few others but I have to go back and search through blanked pages.
Note: It's important to point out that this user has been blocked for one year in the Portuguese Wikipedia ( here) for personal attacks. She opened her user account on the EN wikipedia a few hours after being blocked on the PT wikipedia on June 6, 2007. She consistently edits the same articles as the blocked PT username did, including adding the same sources and generally of the same POV (examples here and here).-- Dali-Llama 18:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Ludovicapipa yes? 19:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Tony1 ( talk · contribs) Unfortunately, despite the thread above, his aggressive behavior continues unabated. [3]. >Radiant< 08:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm closing this WQA for the same reasons as the first one - the entire issue has been escalated to the Admin Noticeboard. — KieferSkunk ( talk) — 16:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been involved in some editing conflicts with User:Bakasuprman, and I find some of his contributions to our discussions a bit uncivil. Bakasuprman is upset with me, primarily because I endorsed his indefinite block on WP:ANI in April 2007; the discussion is here. The matter went to Arbcom ( Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Hkelkar 2), which found no grounds for blocking Bakasuprman, and he remains an editor in good standing. Another reason for Bakasuprman to be upset with me is a discussion I initiated on ANI ( here) in July 2007 that lead to him being briefly blocked for edit warring.
While it's understandable that he dislikes me, I find some of Bakasuprman's comments towards me vexing, and possibly in violation of WP:CIVIL. The latest examples can be found on my user talk page and User talk:FCYTravis; for instance this comment, accusing me of religious bias and being a "maladroit hack", following my restoration of a talk page comment at Talk:Romila Thapar, and this comment, where the link to Hanlon's Razor is apparently supposed to mean that I am idiotic, not malicious.
This is not an isolated occurrence; earlier Bakasuprman called me "uneducated, dishonest, and irrational", as well as apparently accusing me of anti-Hindu bias (full discussion here).
What I'm looking for here is primarily some outside perspective: is this kind of discourse the kind of thing I should expect on India-related pages, as Bakasuprman contends? (n.b, after his statement that "Editors of India related articles are always incivil" he later said that "its rhetoric", so that is not an acknowledgement of incivility.) If so, I should just suck this up, or remove the few India-related pages I edit from my watchlist? On the other hand, if, as I think, Bakasuprman's comments are outside the bounds of civility, I'd appreciate it if someone else would let him know; he doesn't seem too inclined to accept my input. --Akhilleus ( talk) 06:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Bakasuprman has announced on several occasions that "civility does not apply" in contentious areas of Wikipedia. (Contentious areas are anywhere he edits.) My last words on the subject - when he repeated this "defense" yesterday, which Sarvagna seems to share - are here: [4]. Please do read them. Hornplease 16:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
This thread is making me wonder about this noticeboard's utility. Instead of getting outside comment about the issues at hand, this thread is simply offering Bakasuprman another venue to cast aspersions on my character, credibility, etc. If we're not going to get any comments from uninvolved parties, this "discussion" ought to be closed. --Akhilleus ( talk) 01:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
There has been a slight battle over at this page from Chunk Champion. He created and actively edits the article, but I stepped in to try to improve the page. Since then, he's fought me left and right on edits. The reason I bring this issue here is that we had a discussion over what to name the section that refers to the discontinue flavors. I went ahead and got a third opinion that seemed reasonable and went ahead and made the edits, and he reverted them and left a fairly inflammatory comment on the talk page. This whole thing seems to stem from his not understanding how Wiki ownership works, and it's starting to bug me. Where can I go from here? — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 14:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm changing this from Resolved to In Progress. Chunk Champion continues to ignore the slight consensus that has been reached on this page (see the talk page) and has contacted Ben & Jerry's for their opinion. Two people (one here and one here) have told him that this action is irrelevant. If this continues, I'm considering starting an RfC. Does anyone have any other suggestions? It seems silly/excessive to apply for an RfC, but it seems there may be no other choice. — HelloAnnyong [ t · c ] 23:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Editor TharkunColl ( talk + · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser( log) · investigate · cuwiki) seems to have been causing undue disruption across a number of articles for some time now, including at English people, God Save the Queen, Passport, Commonwealth of Nations, Head of the Commonwealth, Monarchy in Canada, British monarchy, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, Second city of the United Kingdom, Commonwealth realm, etc. There seems to be two main, though intertwined, issues with his overall actions:
Overall, TharkunColl's moves show that he:
Hence, TharkunColl's general actions seem to place him squarely under WP:DISRUPT. His talk page and block log show some of the extensive evidence of his conduct.
WP:RFCC has been considered, however I wished to start this informal RfC first, and, perhaps, have others directly communicate with TharkunColl regarding his behaviour. -- G2bambino 18:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
PS - as User:TharkunColl's talk page is currently locked, I have not, as of yet, notified him of this posting. I will do so at the earliest possible opportunity. -- G2bambino 18:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I essentially concur with Thark's assessment. User
G2bambino (aka
Gbambino/
Gbambino06) has a long history as the epitome of a
tendentious editor, going back to his inaugural attempt to put "Canada is a kingdom" into the opening of the article on Canada. While I don't condone some aspects of Thark's behaviour, G. is much the more disruptive of the two.
--
Lonewolf BC
16:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
If I can offer an observation: I respect both TharkunColl and G2bambino as editors who do their research and offer useful comments. I have been in lengthy discussions with both of them. I have both agreed and disagreed with them on a number of points. From what I've observed G2bambino and TharkunColl clash frequently on many pages. They seem to argue most about the relationship of the UK monarchy with other Commonwealth monarchies: in particular, the Canadian one. In my opinion TharkunColl does seem to ignore some points and sometimes offers (in my opinion) irrational arguments. But on that score you could castigate many of not most editors at some point or another. On the other hand, if you stay with him long enough and patiently enough, he will address your points. G2Bambino, in his discussions with TharkunColl seems to assume motive and resorts sometimes to personal attacks. He also on occasion ignores valid points TharkunColl makes. They are both red rags to each other, as many talk pages show. I think this issue is more about a personal feud. Both parties are equally responsible for disruptions. I agree with GoodDay: if you read a lengthy exchange them, they actually agree on more than they argue about. And yes, following another good idea from GoodDay, why don't you (Tharky and G2) both retire temporarily from the UK vs equal monarchy thing and see how it plays out without you? You might be able to get some fresh perspective. -- Gazzster 07:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Rather than being disruptive I would say Tharky pushes his point. You could call that a strength as long as his arguments are supported by evidence. And he does put evidence forward, no matter how much we may dispute its worth. And I agree, it can be annoying. But as I say, if you stay with him long enough, and treat him with respect, he will respond to your arguments. I'd suggest simply rely on the safeguards Wiki already has in place (the 3 revert block rule, etc)to deal with difficulties, and most importantly, don't respond in a personal manner. As youve read from my comments to Tharky, I get riled by him, but it is important to keep my cool. When I stopped feeling riled, I noticed he put forward some bloody good points that made me think. I will of course, continue to spar with him. It's all good fun, as long as noone gets hurt! Cheers!-- Gazzster 02:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
A long-simmering dispute at Battle of Jenin has seen much heat and little light over the past several weeks. A {{POV-check}} tag was added, belatedly, on 3 August, and I soon changed it to {{TotallyDisputed}}, which I thought was a more accurate characterization of the debate. (POV-check is generally for minor issues, such as when a new article is created by someone who doesn't feel they can be entirely neutral, and voluntarily asks for a "sanity check" by a second editor.) Anyway, the tag was reverted and unreverted a bunch of times over the next few days, without explanation, until User:Jaakobou argued on 6 Aug that we "did not open a talk page subsection explaining this dispute", and that "i see no reason for the orange tag except that one side is unhappy that they look bad with the material in the article". Myself and other editors discussed this and the tags seemed to stick.
Over the past 3 or 4 weeks the dispute has certainly not quited down; if anything, it's become more heated. Those who follow this board (and AN/I and even CSN) have probably cseen some fallout from it. Anyway, the point I'm making is that we seem to be getting further from consensus, rather than closer. This being said, User:Jaakobou removed the tags saying that "factuality has been established and there's no massive neutrality issues. feel free to open the issues on talk in separete subsections." (Actually, that's another issue here - Jaakobou has been aggressively trying to structure the discussion to his liking, moving around comments to "on" and "off" -topic sections, insisting that he won't comment in a section if he finds the title "NPOV", etc)
Anyway, I reverted the tag with the summary "re-add tags; the fact that some editors have been worn down or driven off by excessively circular talk page discussion does not mean that issues are "resolved"!", Jaakobou re-reverterd the tag with the summary "rv, i don't follow your commentary/edit summary - what factuality problems are you contesting exactly ?", and User:PalestineRemembered restored it saying "This is a hugely disputed article..Lead stuffed with inappropriate "context", written to the "minority view" eg over whether it was a massacre, lots evidence missing." I have given in and written an extensive summary of the POV problems with one paragraph, which I believe is very typical of the entire piece.
I'd like opinions on two issues:
1) Under what circumstances are maintenance tags removed? Whever I've done it, it's been by posting on the talk page and getting unanimous consent. I realize this may not be practically required in all cases, but I'd never dream of removing a tag when two or three editrs disagree, without having some overwhelming exceptional reason.
2) What do we do when a discussion simply goes on and on without any resolution? Is it just time for mediation? I'm worried that the extremely wearying nature of this discussion is driving people to leave, or at least seriously reduce their involvement - causing those editors who stay to jump in proclaiming that the dispute no longer exists.
Thanks, and I apologize for the length of the post, and for the summary which will necessarily exclude all kinds of details - this has been going on for 6 weeks at least, with at least 6 or 7 editors posting extensively, so I'm sure I've missed many things. Eleland 13:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Kilogram is a class-B Vital article that Greg L has been doing an enormous amount of work on. Unfortunately, the user's behavior on the talk page shows signs of ownership. There was a fair amount of constructive, collaborative editing sparked by Greg L's contributions, but one exception was the response of other editors to the huge expansion of the "mass versus weight" section. I initiated a Request for Comments on the issue, but Greg L has stated the he is not interested in what other users on the page have to say, and he has been attacking other user's suitability to edit the page.
Involved parties:
User:Yath deleted the expansion very early
User:JimWae is engaged in editing and discussion on the talk page
User:Enuja I am engaged in discussion on the talk page
I would like advice on how to make editing and discussion on this article constructive again. Enuja (talk) 23:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the tag on top to "resolved" as it seems to be so. Thanks for the help from Darkwind, and thanks to Greg L! Enuja (talk) 02:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Tony1 ( talk · contribs) is posting silly personal attacks about me and other people he disagrees with, and disrupting discussion with ad hominems, as well as by alluding to conspiracies and "ploys" against him, and calling people Nazis. Could someone have a word with him and get him to calm down? [12] [13] [14] [15] >Radiant< 11:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry to see a conflict erupt between Tony1 and Radiant, two good editors. IMO the problem actually originated with Pmanderson, and Radiant found himself in the middle of Tony1's exhausted patience after long-standing disruption to Wikipedia's manual of style by Pmanderson, while Tony has attempted to improve the MOS to common professional standards in use elsewhere. I have limited computer access for the remainder of this week and next, but I have left one small example of how difficult it has been to work on MOS because of Pmanderson's editing on Radiant's talk page. [16] I do wish someone would look into Pmanderson's behavior as part of this whole issue; I can't help but notice he's lodged what I consider to be a spurious issue two sections below this one, and suggest that someone might ask Pmanderson to consider his own editing style and the effect it has on others. I also note that someone actually left a template on Tony1's talk page, perhaps never having read WP:DTR. For someone who has worked as hard as Tony1 has to improve Wikipedia, that's just insulting and the whole point behind DTR. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 20:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
— KieferSkunk ( talk) — 01:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Because this issue has now been raised at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Admin Radiant!, I've marked it as Stuck here. I don't see that there's anything more we can do in this situation - the situation is apparently much more complex than we're equipped to deal with here on WQA. — KieferSkunk ( talk) — 16:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
-- An RFC has been filed against User:Epbr123. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 19:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else find Epbr123's part in this conversation gratingly condescending, particularly his idea that the FAC regulars are entitled to educate the rest of Wikipedia? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
In my recent conversations with Epbr123, in addition to his recent remarks on Talk:List of big-bust models and performers and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of big-bust models and performers (5th nomination), he seems to be violating civility, no personal attacks, and, in an odd sort of way, even taking ownership of the aforementioned article in a deletionist sort of way. His behavior has me concerned, particularly his sniping of people on the linked AFD and I feel that it requires mediation, which may even result in a request for comment on this user sometime in the near future. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 17:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't have time to add too much exposition to these points right. Well, we'll see how much I crank out. On this very WQA, Epbr took it upon himself to accuse an intervening administrator of etiquette violations just because the admin told him to stop disruptively nominating articles for deletion. He also made a personal attack against me, just a few paragraphs above, calling me a "stalker" and a "schoolkid" in order to discredit my complaints against him. Interesting that his condescending "schoolmaster" approach was the initial reason this WQA was opened (although it's widened quite a bit in its scope since then). He nominated 11 articles for deletion in a single day, from Notable Usenet personalities, but instead of grouping them, he nominated them all at once (this is why the admin warned him). He justified it using an (invalid) citation of WP:SNOW, here. He has been extraordinarily uncivil [17] for example. He constantly marks people's comments as "ILIKEIT" and makes other unfounded remarks in order to antagonize and discredit them.
Unsubstantiated accusations of "bad faith" or frivolous accusations of "ILIKEIT":
Personally insulting responses:
Other non-constructive responses to keep votes:
Other non-constructive comments:
Sorry, I know that's alot of links. If you only click one, click this one instead (note: this one is not included on the list). All these antagonisitc, non-constructive comments, the result is undeniably to sour the AfD process and make it impossible to work together to discuss policy and work to form consensus on the issue. Instead, these bad-faith AfD nomimations are marked with continued acts of unreasonable and uncivil behavior. It seems entirely inappropriate to respond condescendingly, or at least non-constructively, to every single "keep" vote. He even admits that his AfD was an attempt to prove a point about the subjectivity of the criteria - a point he could have made on the article's talk page, something to be discussed and resolved with other editors. Instead, he jumped ship on the discussion, because he has decided unilaterally that the article wasn't worth keeping. He's made it a point to drag irrelevant topics into the AfD by asking pedantic leading questions, as pointed out here by Xhir. He believes that the AfD page is the place to discuss content issues (see here). It appears that he believes that he is in charge of clean up, and that when edit wars ensue, he is in charge of fixing it by AfD'ing the whole thing (see here). He also seems to like to accuse people of the violations that they are accusing him of (when accused of bad faith, he accuses bad faith, and the same with POINT and CIVIL). He seems to believe that he is the only one in charge of deciding whether an article can be properly sourced. He seems to think he is appointed by Wikipedia to delete bad articles - he thinks he speaks for the entire Wikipedia community (despite the fact that many of his currently-running AfDs have snowballed-keep). He seems to be very proud of it, in fact. And yet he would accuse an admin of an abuse of power with no evidence whatsoever. His behavior has, from the start, been entirely out of line. I first encountered him here on the WQA, where he had accused User:georgewilliamherbert of abusing administrator power by warning him about his AfDs. I looked and was immediately surprised to see him going on what can only be described as a deletion spree. I can't speculate as to why, but User:Dekkappai has some ideas. Regardless, this is way out of hand. I believe something needs to be done. I may have more to add later, but I am fairly busy and may not be able to find the time. But this is what I've come up with now, in a bit of spare time I had this evening. Of course, there are also plenty of other users making points that I have not covered here (like Xhir's point about Epbr trying to move a page in the middle of an AfD he started for that page). Oh, and one more point: he lists every single one of his edits as "minor." Many people filter out minor edits, and he would effectively be able to edit without being noticed by these people. He could respond to their points, appropriately or not, and they'd never even see it. The "This is a minor edit" button is not supposed to be abused in this fashion. -- Cheeser1 03:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm also going to point everyone here. Another user is deleting people's "votes" in Epbr's AfDs, and Epbr is helping that user out by telling him/her that his removals (which I would consider serious vandalism) are being reverted. See [37] [38] [39] [40]. He seems to be supporting these absurd claims of "trolling" (probably because that's one less keep vote) however, even if a poorly justified vote on an AfD isn't great, but it is not trolling. -- Cheeser1 11:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I've begun breaking ground on the RfC on Epbr123. For those of us directly involved with this, please feel free to modify my work, since it's been a long while since I've ever had to file an RfC against anyone. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 17:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Note: I notified the user about the RfC against him; he has since blanked the notification. I wish to restore it, however I did not read anything in RFC guidelines regarding the removal of notification messages one way or the other, so have held off for now. Regardless, the user knows about the RfC, so I guess it has served its purpose. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. Think out loud 19:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)